0:01

From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald

0:04

and The Age. This is the morning

0:06

edition. I'm Chris Paine, filling

0:08

in for Samantha Salinger. It's

0:10

Thursday, April 18th. It

0:13

was scarcely more than 48 hours

0:15

after the tragic attack in Bondi

0:18

Junction, when, across town in Sydney,

0:20

another confronting incident was

0:22

unfolding during a service

0:24

that was live streamed at Christ

0:26

the Good Shepherd church in the suburb

0:28

of Wakely. A teenager allegedly

0:31

attacked Bishop Murray

0:33

Emmanuel. The attack, which

0:35

has now been declared an act of terror,

0:38

sparked chaotic and violent

0:40

scenes outside the church, where

0:42

hundreds of people rioted and clashed

0:44

with a heavy police presence. Today,

0:47

investigative reporter Patrick Begley

0:50

on what we now know about the attack,

0:52

as well as the trauma and fear

0:55

felt across Sydney. So,

1:00

Patrick, there was a horrific attack at

1:02

a Sydney church on Monday night.

1:04

What can you tell me about what happened?

1:07

Well, I.

1:07

Actually saw this attack before

1:09

I knew anything about it. I

1:11

was out with a group of friends, and then

1:13

one of them pulled out his phone and said,

1:15

look at this. And

1:18

what I could see was this clip that

1:20

had been going around on social media

1:23

showing this absolutely horrific

1:25

violence. There was a

1:27

dark figure that was seen approaching

1:30

the pulpit of a church.

1:32

And.

1:32

Then just setting upon

1:34

a priest figure, stabbing

1:36

him multiple times,

1:38

and I didn't know what I was really looking at. But

1:41

then quickly we began

1:43

to get a sense of what had happened. So this

1:45

had occurred just before, on Monday

1:47

evening in western Sydney at a church

1:49

called Christ the Good Shepherd. And

1:52

the bishop was murmuring, Emmanuel.

1:54

And he'd been live streaming this service.

1:56

He's got like 291,000

1:59

followers on Facebook. So he's got a very

2:01

big following online. And

2:04

he was set upon by this

2:06

alleged attacker, who police say was

2:08

a 16 year old boy. And

2:11

they've since designated it a terrorist

2:13

attack.

2:14

The consideration of all the material. I

2:16

declared that it was a

2:18

terrorist incident.

2:22

So what do we know about

2:24

the alleged attacker, this teenage boy?

2:26

Who is he? And what, if anything,

2:28

do we know about his motivations?

2:31

There is a limit to how much we can say

2:33

about this boy, because there are laws in New

2:35

South Wales which prohibit anything

2:37

that would tend to identify someone

2:39

who's been involved in a crime, who is a child.

2:42

Police have said that he was not on any

2:44

terror watch list. They believe

2:47

he most likely acted alone.

2:49

We know that four years ago,

2:51

when he was maybe about 12,

2:53

he was suspended from his school because

2:56

he was found to have been carrying a knife

2:58

on school grounds. And then

3:00

more recently, he has faced Children's

3:02

Court on several serious charges.

3:04

One of these charges was being

3:06

armed with the intent to commit an indictable

3:09

offence. And then there were others, such

3:11

as intimidation, intending to cause physical

3:13

harm and destroying property. The

3:15

first charge, armed with intent, that

3:18

was dismissed, and then the other two were dealt

3:20

with by way of a good behaviour bond. So

3:22

this boy was known to police,

3:25

but as I said, he was not on

3:27

any kind of terrorism radar.

3:29

I just want to ask you quickly about the

3:31

live stream social media

3:33

nature of this. It really kind of adds to

3:36

the fear and the chaos.

3:38

Now, we didn't show that particular video,

3:41

but could you just describe what

3:43

you can see in the video in the immediate

3:45

aftermath of the attack, what

3:47

the sense was inside the church?

3:49

Yes. So it's just

3:51

panic and we can see the

3:53

attack occur. We can

3:56

see the bishop being set

3:58

upon another priest then tries

4:00

to intervene. The bishop and

4:02

the priest are then later taken to hospital

4:04

for non-life threatening injuries, but both

4:06

of them were wounded in the attack. What

4:09

happens then is parishioners

4:11

apprehend the boy and he's later arrested

4:14

by police. And in one video

4:16

that was taken, the boy is actually

4:18

seen smiling on the

4:20

ground. From this

4:22

point on, as you've said, the

4:25

video just goes everywhere. And

4:27

social media tech giants have

4:29

been criticised, particularly X

4:32

or what was formerly Twitter, for

4:34

allowing this to spread so

4:36

wildly. Facebook has said

4:38

that they basically tried to prevent copies of

4:40

the video recirculating that might

4:42

be re-uploaded later.

4:44

And Patrick, what can you tell me about the bishop?

4:46

He has a history of making controversial

4:49

and inflammatory statements have attracted

4:51

some notoriety over the years.

4:53

What has he said?

4:55

He's an interesting character. This

4:57

Bishop mummery Emmanuel because

4:59

he says that his church, Christ the Good Shepherd,

5:02

is an Assyrian Orthodox

5:04

Church. He associates himself

5:06

with this lineage that goes back nearly

5:08

two millennia. And at the same

5:10

time, he's very modern. He's extremely

5:13

online. Some people have called him the

5:15

TikTok.

5:16

Bishop who believes in me. Even

5:18

though he dies, he shall live. But

5:20

he who eats my body and drinks

5:22

my blood shall live.

5:24

As I mentioned before, he's got heaps

5:26

of followers 291,000 followers

5:28

on Facebook. He appears on podcasts.

5:31

Jesus Christ, I not only

5:33

believe in him, dear Patrick, I know him.

5:36

Look, I'm a sinner and at the.

5:37

Same time he's made some pretty out there

5:39

comments, some comments that are at times

5:42

divisive and inflammatory.

5:44

Some of the most well-known ones are probably

5:47

directed towards the Lgbtq+

5:50

community. He said in one

5:52

video that he didn't consider transgender

5:54

people as human, for

5:56

instance, and. He said. Other

5:58

things, such as Satan founded the

6:00

UN, that the last US election

6:03

was rigged by secret societies.

6:05

In terms of his comments on Islam,

6:07

he has said that he's described

6:10

the Muslim world as his beloved Muslim

6:12

world. He said that he means no offence,

6:14

that he prays for Muslims, that he loves Muslims.

6:19

What is Muhammad is saying in the Koran? He's

6:22

saying But Jesus or Isa,

6:24

he saw.

6:24

Us at the same time. He has said that

6:27

no one compares to Jesus Christ.

6:29

But Jesus, Son of Mary, is

6:31

the Word of God and a Spirit

6:33

of God.

6:34

Now his church is strongly centred on

6:36

Jesus, and he said that other religious figures,

6:38

including Muhammad, just can't compare.

6:41

And he's also criticized Islam

6:43

for some issues doctrinally. Now

6:46

the local federal member, Dai Lee,

6:48

she has warned against those

6:50

speculation about which,

6:53

if any, particular comments the bishop might

6:55

have made which could have led to

6:57

the attack. She said look, we really can't

7:00

speculate on whether something the bishop

7:02

has said has formed part of

7:04

the motive of the alleged attacker.

7:06

I want to go back to immediately after

7:08

the attack. We now get chaotic

7:10

scenes emerging from outside the church,

7:13

hundreds of people gathering. You

7:15

can see footage of police cars

7:17

being damaged, people yelling, people

7:19

throwing things at buildings and

7:21

what was later referred to as a riot.

7:24

So can you take me through that scene? It was pretty

7:26

astonishing.

7:26

It was astonishing. So pretty

7:29

quickly, hundreds of people

7:31

began to gather outside the church, and

7:33

at the same time, you've got police and ambulance

7:35

officers, paramedics, they're trying

7:38

to do their jobs.

7:41

Bring him up.

7:45

The police are trying to do their job. They're trying

7:47

to keep order to,

7:49

you know, keep the accused safe.

7:52

And ambulance officers are trying to treat

7:54

the injured. But then this very

7:56

at times angry mob,

7:58

in the words of the police commissioner, Karen Webb,

8:01

turns on police.

8:03

Everyone else but police.

8:09

And she describes members of the

8:11

crowd basically picking up anything that

8:13

they could find, using it as projectiles,

8:15

using it as missiles, causing

8:17

a lot of damage to police vehicles.

8:20

She said that 20 police vehicles

8:22

were damaged. Ten of these were so damaged

8:24

that they were pretty much unusable,

8:26

and then also several police officers

8:28

were injured.

8:42

We may or may not know the answer

8:44

to this question, but I think a lot of our listeners

8:47

who see that are asking

8:49

the question, why? Why were they turning

8:51

on the police?

8:52

I don't think we know. I

8:54

think that understandably, people

8:56

were very distressed at what they

8:58

had seen. We know that

9:00

many people in this area, particularly

9:03

in the Assyrian community, they

9:05

have their own experiences of trauma

9:07

or family trauma dating back

9:10

to their lives in other countries, in

9:12

Syria, Iraq, Iran.

9:15

A lot of these people have experienced

9:17

violence in their lives before, and then they

9:20

see their bishop being attacked

9:22

on live stream. But

9:24

as for why individual

9:27

members of this crowd behaved in the way

9:29

that they did toward police,

9:31

I don't think we know that yet.

9:35

We'll be right back.

9:38

Of course, this attack was scarcely

9:41

more than 48 hours after

9:43

the Bondi Junction attack, in

9:46

which of course six people were murdered and many

9:48

were injured. I think all

9:50

of Sydney was in a real sense of shock already.

9:53

And then this incident occurs.

9:56

I certainly can't recall a moment in

9:58

this city like this, since perhaps

10:00

the cafe siege. How do you

10:02

think the city is feeling right now?

10:04

On edge? I think that's the way to put

10:06

it. And I mean, we

10:08

had these two very distressing

10:10

attacks occur so quickly,

10:13

one after the other and the aftermath of

10:15

the Saturday attack. We heard from

10:17

the Prime Minister, the premier,

10:19

the police commissioner, and then

10:22

within 48 hours or so, we're

10:24

hearing from these same people again, the Prime Minister,

10:26

the premier, the police commissioner. I

10:29

mean, Sydney barely had a chance to take

10:31

a breath between these attacks.

10:33

And people had all

10:35

of these headlines and alerts and

10:38

news updates about a stabbing

10:40

attack, and then they're getting that all over again

10:42

from a very different attack in a different part

10:44

of the city. But I just think that people

10:46

had no chance to recover from the Bondi

10:49

Junction attack. As

10:51

a city, we didn't have a chance to recover

10:53

from that attack before this new one was upon

10:55

us.

10:56

Patrick, you just talked about headlines

10:58

and alerts, and this is obviously very confronting

11:00

news for people to take in and to

11:02

follow. I just wanted to actually ask

11:05

you what it's like to report on these stories

11:07

as they unfold. They're quick. They're chaotic.

11:09

What's that process been like for you

11:11

and then being in the newsroom?

11:13

It's been pretty much non-stop since

11:16

Saturday afternoon. It's really hard

11:18

because you have to be quick and you have to

11:20

be accurate. And we saw in the case

11:22

of Bondi Junction, someone

11:24

was misidentified as the attacker,

11:27

which caused terrible,

11:30

terrible distress to that person.

11:33

And then in the case of the attack on the

11:35

bishop, we know that the boy

11:37

who was allegedly involved in this incident,

11:40

that he lost a finger. Police

11:42

have said that it was as a result of his actions,

11:44

and the premier has said that it was in the course of

11:46

the alleged crime. But then

11:48

there's all kinds of speculation going on

11:50

about what might have led to this injury.

11:53

There's a fake photo that's floating around

11:55

showing a hand with all four

11:57

fingers missing. We have to

11:59

be really careful. Um, at

12:02

the same time trying to get the information,

12:04

the right information out there as quickly as possible.

12:07

Now, with respect to the church attack,

12:09

Patrick, New South Wales Police have

12:11

now designated this as a terrorist

12:14

incident, which is significant. Can

12:16

you tell me how they came to this decision?

12:18

What we know is that at 1:35

12:20

a.m. on Tuesday

12:23

morning, so just hours after the

12:25

Monday night attack, Karen Webb,

12:27

as police commissioner, made the

12:29

choice to designate this as a terrorist

12:31

incident. That decision

12:33

is then affirmed by the police

12:35

minister. And it's really important

12:37

because once something is designated as

12:39

a terrorist incident, it gives

12:42

police all kinds of new

12:44

powers, extraordinary powers that they wouldn't

12:46

normally have. And that includes the ability

12:48

to do things like stop

12:50

people, make searches of

12:53

individuals, cars, buildings

12:56

without a warrant, and also

12:58

to do other things such as set up roadblocks

13:00

to cordon off particular areas. So

13:02

it massively expands what police are

13:04

able to do. But before

13:07

they're able to use those powers,

13:09

the police commissioner and the minister need to

13:11

be satisfied that a three part test has been

13:13

met, that this was religiously,

13:15

politically or ideologically motivated,

13:18

that it caused harm, and that it was

13:20

intended to intimidate a community.

13:24

Commissioner Webb and the Minister obviously felt

13:26

that this had been satisfied. Commissioner

13:28

Webb said in a press conference yesterday

13:30

that the boy had made some comments

13:32

around religion in the lead up to

13:35

the attack, and she also

13:37

alluded to other material that she was using

13:39

to form that judgment.

13:41

Okay, so then why has

13:43

there been some pushback to

13:46

the decision to label this as terrorism,

13:48

if those three conditions have indeed been

13:50

met in the eyes of the commissioner and the minister?

13:53

I think some people in the community

13:55

are concerned that it was potentially

13:57

premature or counterproductive.

14:00

The federal independent member for

14:02

that area, Dai Lee, she

14:04

appeared on ABC yesterday

14:06

saying that she felt sick to her stomach

14:09

about this designation. She said she really

14:11

hoped that the government had got this

14:13

right because of the potential

14:15

for a terrorism designation to fuel

14:18

further fear within the community.

14:20

And then we had the Lakemba

14:22

mosque Imam Jamal

14:25

Uddin ElkY. He

14:27

was also wary of the designation, saying,

14:30

isn't this just a boy with

14:32

a knife who has allegedly done

14:34

something terrible? Premier

14:37

Chris Minns has come. Out and defended

14:39

the designation. He has said this is not

14:41

a performative gesture designed to go. On

14:43

a press release, he has said that

14:45

the AFP has since affirmed

14:47

this decision or supported it. And

14:50

we've also had the head of ASIO,

14:52

Mike Burgess, say that there were strong

14:55

indicators of a terrorism motivation

14:57

in this case.

14:58

And Patrick, finally, how do you feel

15:00

that Sydneysiders have responded

15:02

to witnessing these incidents?

15:05

We've of course, seen tragic

15:07

violence, but also incredible bravery.

15:09

We have seen some amazing

15:12

bravery. People who were just at Bondi

15:14

Junction for a day

15:16

out for a shop, actually

15:18

taking on the offender, trying to

15:20

ward him off, putting their own lives on the

15:22

line. And then you've got the police officer,

15:24

Amy Scott, who fatally shot

15:27

the attacker. She was acting

15:29

entirely alone. She didn't have any other

15:31

police officers there with her. And

15:33

her courage has been commended by police

15:36

and by the Premier.

15:38

At.

15:38

The same time, as well as people

15:40

acting selflessly in that

15:42

crowd outside the church at Wakely, we

15:44

saw real anger spill

15:47

into violence, people who

15:49

were perhaps understandably distressed,

15:51

but then went that extra step

15:54

and were actually endangering

15:56

the lives of paramedics and police

15:58

through their actions. The Premier

16:00

has said that we simply cannot have

16:02

tit for tat violence, that people cannot

16:05

take the law into their own hands. And

16:08

the commissioner, Karen Webb, has

16:10

said that we will start to see the

16:12

arrests of people who participated in that

16:14

riot from as early as Wednesday.

16:17

Patrick, thank you so much for your time. Thanks,

16:19

Chris. Today's

16:28

episode of The Morning Edition was produced

16:30

by Julia Caswell with technical

16:32

assistance from David Macmillan.

16:34

Our executive producer is Ruby

16:36

Schwartz. The Morning Edition

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17:11

Notes. I'm Chris Paine. This

17:13

is the morning edition. Thank you

17:15

for listening.