0:00

Hi everyone , welcome to this week's episode

0:02

of the Midlife Feast . I'm really excited

0:04

I think I say that every week , but I really am excited

0:06

for you to listen to this conversation with

0:09

my fellow ND colleague , dr Sylvie

0:11

Martin . Sylvie lives in Ontario , she's

0:13

also a registered nurse and she's

0:15

also a certified intuitive eating counselor

0:17

and she's trained in mindfulness-based

0:20

eating . She is a wealth of information , but

0:22

I wanted to bring her on specifically to talk

0:24

about the problem of diet

0:27

and wellness culture in

0:29

therapeutic relationships , especially

0:31

in integrative and alternative

0:34

or complementary care , whatever you want to call it Because

0:37

there's a lot of problems created

0:39

when people are given food rules

0:41

, and especially when those food rules are based

0:43

on evidence , and so I , of course , spend a

0:45

lot of time helping people to undiet those

0:47

beliefs , as Sylvie does as well , and

0:50

I thought that it might be interesting for you

0:52

to hear this conversation , because we

0:54

talk about it from a practitioner level , but we're also

0:56

talking about it from the patient or the client's

0:59

perspective . So tune in and

1:01

, as always , I'd love to hear what you think . Hi

1:04

, sylvie , welcome to the Midlife Feast .

1:06

Hi Jen , Thanks for having me . Always

1:09

a pleasure to connect with you .

1:12

So this is , you know , I have like these

1:14

themes for guests and like we have guest experts

1:16

who are talking about clinical stuff and story

1:19

sessions which are , like you know , stories of you

1:21

know women's journeys through midlife or undiating

1:23

, and then there's some solo episodes

1:25

and I wasn't sure how to actually categorize

1:27

this one because I feel like it's a little bit of

1:29

you're definitely an expert , you're a fellow

1:32

ND , you're a fellow certified

1:34

intuitive eating coach and you do a

1:36

lot of kind of education in this space . But

1:38

I feel like a lot of what we're talking about today is actually

1:40

not so much expertise but just talking about

1:42

, like these experiences and

1:45

these stories of needing

1:47

to get diet and wellness

1:49

culture in particular out

1:52

of what we call therapeutic diet

1:54

conversations , because they show up all

1:57

the time and , as we both know

1:59

, they I think they really kind of get

2:01

in the way of health and they're confusing

2:04

. So , before we get into

2:06

all that , why don't you just tell the listeners

2:08

a little bit about you

2:10

and the work that you do and kind of how

2:13

you got to work in this space ?

2:15

Yeah , you

2:17

know it's been a bit of a journey for

2:19

me . I started off my career as an

2:21

acute care psychiatric nurse , so

2:23

I graduated with a nursing degree and

2:26

I went on to become a naturopathic doctor

2:28

. I absolutely love mental health . I

2:31

love working with individuals to improve

2:33

mood disorders , anxiety

2:36

, depression , irritability , pms

2:38

symptoms all the hormonal symptoms that can come

2:40

up for women as well . And what

2:42

I was really noticing in my practice , in my

2:44

naturopathic practice , is

2:47

individuals were starting

2:49

to get a little bit

2:51

more meticulous about what they were eating and

2:53

I was starting to see some patterns I was concerned

2:56

with . I was seeing a lot of people that

2:58

thought they were emotionally

3:00

eating or feeling out of control around

3:02

food . So that led me down

3:04

a research rabbit hole . As

3:06

you know me , I love to keep my head

3:09

in the research . Critical research appraisal

3:11

is a strong suit in my

3:13

practice . It was a big part of my nursing career

3:15

, also in naturopathic medicine . I'd like

3:18

to look at where's the evidence for what we recommend

3:20

, and I ended up coming

3:22

across research on mindful eating

3:25

by Dr Jean Cristeller , so it's

3:27

referred to as MB8 , mindfulness

3:29

based eating awareness training and

3:32

using this in individuals

3:34

with binge eating disorder or those who

3:36

binge eat that might not meet the diagnostic

3:38

criteria for binge eating disorder and

3:41

I was impressed enough with the research that I decided

3:43

to pursue training with Dr Cristeller in

3:45

MB8 . I started incorporating

3:48

that into my practice and I

3:50

also came across intuitive eating and

3:52

became an intuitive eating counselor as well . And

3:55

then , on a separate hat , my

3:58

RN practice . As an RN psychotherapist

4:00

I pursued additional training

4:02

in cognitive behavioral therapy for eating disorders

4:05

, cbt for anxiety and

4:07

depression . So a lot

4:09

of what I do with individuals is really looking

4:12

at where they're at with their relationship

4:14

with themselves , with food , how

4:17

much diet culture is

4:20

happening to people

4:22

and how we can actually work on taking

4:24

that out of the appointments , getting away

4:26

from this obsession about I need to

4:28

eat x grams of protein , I

4:31

need to , people thinking they need to

4:33

be restricting carbohydrates , when in reality

4:35

that could be worsening their PMS symptoms . And I'm

4:37

sure you see this all the time in your practice as well

4:39

and for all my listeners are nodding their heads right

4:41

now . So , so , needless

4:44

to say , I absolutely love

4:46

the intersection of mental wellness

4:48

, health , nutrition , digestion

4:51

. I think it's so important , but the

4:53

relationship with food , to me , is one

4:55

of the most important relationships that people have , and

4:58

they need a lot of work . There's

5:00

a lot of work that needs , and

5:03

people need help with it .

5:05

They do . And you know I find that my

5:07

own journey , you know

5:09

, to my professional , my personal journey

5:11

to kind of moving away from diet culture , the

5:15

messiest part , was Trying

5:18

to find that happy place of

5:20

how do we still talk about Food

5:23

and diet and nutrition , and not

5:25

a diet , but diet is in big picture , diet

5:27

, but diet and nutrition as a

5:30

therapeutic tool , because of

5:32

course , food matters . We know that nutrition plays

5:34

a huge role in health , without

5:37

getting caught up in , you know , this

5:40

all or nothing thinking that really permeates

5:42

so many discussions about food , but I

5:44

think , especially in

5:46

integrative medicine , especially in our

5:49

field , naturopathic medicine , and

5:51

you know , one example that I

5:53

thought would be interesting for us to talk about

5:55

is , you know , like the elimination diet , the

5:58

good old brown rice diet , right

6:00

? So , you know

6:02

, anybody who , I think , has seen an

6:05

ND in the last 50

6:07

years is probably familiar with the brown

6:09

rice elimination diet and it essentially

6:12

, you know was was intended

6:14

to help people figure out potential reactions

6:16

that they were having to foods that they were eating , to help

6:19

manage a variety of symptoms

6:21

, could be anything from digestive to allergic

6:23

, and and certainly there

6:25

are , I think , many instances

6:27

where people did feel better they

6:29

. They were able to get some useful information

6:32

from that and hopefully

6:34

the intention is always that they would reintroduce

6:37

the foods and it was never meant to be

6:39

this long-term restriction . But

6:41

what I started to notice about say , eight

6:43

or ten years into my practice was that People

6:46

felt like that was the new baseline . So

6:49

you know , they'd say , oh , I did that brown rice

6:52

diet a few years ago and I felt so good , I

6:54

keep trying to go back to it , but oh , it's so

6:56

hard . And so they now

6:58

had this . You know this expectation

7:00

that anything other than the brown rice

7:03

diet wasn't healthy , when

7:05

in fact , that elimination diet

7:07

was probably the least healthy thing

7:09

that you could do , because it was low in Everything

7:12

, it was low in protein , it was low in fats , it

7:14

was low in flavor , it

7:16

was so restrictive , and you know so . Now

7:19

people will have this kind of On-off

7:22

, not sure what to eat . And

7:24

so these therapeutic diet conversations

7:26

, because they're so often and

7:29

I'm not picking on the brown rice diet . It still has its place

7:31

, I'm sure . But you know , regardless

7:33

of what the prescribed diet

7:36

is , when people are told don't

7:38

eat this Because it could do

7:40

this , and when there isn't any evidence for it

7:42

. It gets really messy for people

7:44

and it's really hard I'm

7:46

kind of rambling here , but , like you know , I

7:48

find it really hard to find that to

7:51

help people find that that middle

7:53

ground between intuitive

7:55

eating , non-diet approach , health

7:57

at every size and Also

8:00

let's like talk about low-fod mat

8:02

, for example , like that's another one that has a really

8:04

good place but

8:06

people might still feel

8:09

a little confused about it . So

8:11

anyway , that was kind of what I thought would be fun to talk

8:13

about , if you have thoughts about that .

8:15

I love this . I feel like we've just opened up the

8:17

biggest can of wonderful nutrition ever . Let's

8:20

just open it all . A couple

8:23

of things jumped to my mind with

8:25

this is is even talking about

8:27

, like the so-called brown rice diet . I

8:30

find , in our profession and when

8:33

you know , even through

8:35

the journey of learning intuitive eating

8:37

and even mindful eating skills , there's

8:39

been so much unlearning that's

8:41

been needed . And when I'm speaking

8:44

at conferences to educate naturopathic

8:47

doctors on Disorder to eating

8:49

, eating behavior , what we could be doing

8:51

about it , the biggest thing

8:53

I find that I'm focusing on

8:56

is is some of the unlearning that

8:58

we need to do . Where are we receiving

9:00

our information ? And and you and I

9:02

know there's not I've never

9:04

come across a a reasonable

9:07

, reasonably put together study

9:09

that I would ever rely on on using

9:11

a brown rice diet . And there's

9:14

no when you look at the diet

9:16

itself . But there's , there's no . It doesn't

9:18

make any sense from a Biochemistry

9:21

standpoint . It's just arbitrarily

9:23

don't eat these , eat lots

9:25

of this . And what happens when we

9:27

do that and when we ask people to do something

9:29

like that , which I don't I don't do this type

9:32

of diet we're

9:34

basically taking things off the menu . But

9:37

what are we often putting back in Maybe some

9:39

fruits and vegetables that maybe they haven't been eating

9:41

enough of . So people start to feel

9:43

better and they think , oh , I feel better . Well , maybe we're

9:45

actually eating a bit more fruits and vegetables , but

9:47

I'm with you Likely we're still not getting

9:49

enough of our general macronutrient

9:52

intake anytime we try and take

9:54

something off the plate . So

9:56

my preference in treatment is not

9:58

to remove things from the plate , but there's

10:00

still , with therapeutic nutrition , there

10:03

still can be utility to

10:05

some things , and I might change my mind about this

10:07

depending where the evidence goes in the next five

10:10

, 10 years . Like , it's really hard when

10:12

, whenever we see regulated

10:14

healthcare providers take a

10:16

stance on something in nutrition , we have to

10:18

be really careful . Like if somebody says , oh

10:20

, I'm keto , I'm anti

10:23

, this anti that we need to start really

10:25

thinking about , okay , are

10:27

they just pitching their flag and now

10:29

everything is going to be skewed by that lens

10:31

, I like to think of

10:33

things as research and nutrition takes

10:36

10 to 20 years to even start to give us a

10:38

glimpse of where it's going for a pattern

10:40

, not even inclusive evidence

10:43

, right ? So anytime someone's

10:45

like putting in their steak in the ground , saying I

10:47

am a carnivore diet supporter , for example

10:49

. I really worry because there's not

10:51

really any studies on the answer to diet .

10:53

Oh my God , are we really going there ? Are we trying to go carnivore

10:55

? No , we're not going there .

10:56

We're not going there . But when we talk

10:59

about things like low-fodmat

11:01

patterns of eating , I think some of

11:03

the most important things we have to remember . I'm

11:06

part of this society called the Rome Society

11:09

for Gastroenterology , so it's actually

11:11

psychogastroenterology . I geek

11:13

out on this . It's yeah , it's really

11:15

well chat about it . It's amazing

11:17

some of the research coming out . But they

11:20

know , with individuals with irritable bowel syndrome

11:22

for example , people can

11:24

take things off their plate temporarily

11:26

. They will temporarily feel better . They

11:29

can get to a point where we can incorporate

11:32

certain foods . It's important that we're putting

11:34

foods into the menu . We

11:36

need more variety . Our gut

11:39

microbiota needs variety

11:41

. But what can happen with individuals

11:43

with IBS is it's not just

11:45

physical what is eaten and

11:47

the cause and effect . It's not that

11:49

simple . What we do know as individuals with

11:52

IBS actually we call

11:54

them disorders of gut-brain interaction

11:56

. This is the clinical term now . So if somebody

11:58

just says , oh , you have IBS , it's

12:00

actually a disorder of gut-brain interaction . It

12:02

is not . I'm not saying that people

12:04

with IBS , for example , cause

12:07

their symptoms by thinking

12:09

of it or that they're making it up . I am

12:12

not saying that . But what does happen

12:14

is the wiring between the

12:16

brain and the gut . There's very sophisticated

12:18

neural networks that connect our brain

12:20

and our gut , and what can happen is

12:22

when individuals , for example

12:25

with IBS , might be so accustomed

12:27

to feeling bloated and they start to associate

12:30

food I eat food , I

12:32

feel bloated , I need to avoid food

12:35

. It starts to become the go-to thinking

12:37

of food equals bloating and they become a

12:39

bit scared of eating certain foods . And

12:42

then what happens is we

12:44

like to think of it as the fire alarms

12:46

going off . There's no fire anymore

12:48

. So all of a sudden

12:51

they think , okay , I'm gonna have some pizza

12:53

, but now I can already feel the bloating started

12:55

. I'm bloating , I'm feeling distended , I'm

12:57

feeling uncomfortable , but what's happening

12:59

is they actually have changes in

13:02

the wiring between the gut and the brain and

13:04

the gut's telling them there's a fire here

13:06

, turn on

13:08

the fire alarm , and the brain's sending off

13:11

these fire alarm signals , but there's no fire

13:13

in the gut . So we need to

13:15

be really mindful whenever we're starting

13:17

to use therapeutic nutrition , we

13:19

need to be thinking of the context , of what's going on

13:22

with that individual , and the science has really

13:24

shifted over time , with gut

13:26

brain interaction , for example

13:28

. But another area when

13:31

we think about therapeutic

13:33

nutrition is there's this term , anti-diet

13:35

that floats around there and I am anti-diet

13:37

, but I am not going

13:39

to say I am anti-weight loss . I'm

13:42

not encouraging people to chase a number

13:44

on a scale , but I'm

13:46

not also going to tell somebody , if

13:48

you feel better in this range in

13:50

your body , not to pursue that

13:53

. But I'm not going to start attacking

13:55

numbers on a scale . It's just not helpful for

13:57

people . But we need to just

13:59

be really mindful when

14:01

we're looking at nutrition

14:04

. Therapeutically is we

14:06

can incorporate therapeutic nutrition

14:08

and also known as gentle nutrition

14:10

. It's one of the principles of intuitive eating

14:12

. It's often very important . So

14:15

if I have individuals

14:17

, for example , maybe their hemoglobin

14:20

A1C levels are rising and

14:22

this is an indicator that we could

14:24

have an issue with insulin sensitivity

14:27

. We could have an issue with rising glucose

14:29

levels . I'm not going to take that person

14:31

and say go on a no carb diet or

14:33

low carb diet . I want to look . Oftentimes

14:36

what I see happening in my practice is

14:38

individuals are binge eating and they're

14:40

binge eating because they might not be eating their macronutrient

14:43

intake through breakfast , lunch

14:45

dinner . And in the evening they're diving

14:47

into the M&M's . No problem

14:49

, M&M's are tasty , right , Chocolate's

14:52

great . But if your nutrition

14:54

is off balance , we need to rebalance

14:56

that and that's where therapeutic nutrition is important

14:59

. I will never tell somebody don't have sugar

15:01

, cut the sugar out . You hear this BS

15:04

all the time . Eat sugar free ? Oh

15:06

, you can have fruit , but have low sugar fruit

15:08

Like sorry F those people

15:11

who recommend stuff like that

15:13

, Because that's not the issue

15:15

. The issue often comes down to a pattern

15:17

, a relationship with food , maybe

15:20

a nutritional intake that might not

15:22

be optimized for what that person needs . So

15:25

I do think we need to explore

15:28

nutrition on a broader context and

15:30

individualize the basis with

15:32

the person that's in front of us .

15:34

There is no one size fits all answer . Right

15:36

, and if I think of

15:39

one of the overarching principles

15:41

that I don't think serves anyone

15:44

but really is part of the

15:46

doctrine I think of integrative

15:48

medicine is this food

15:50

is medicine , philosophy , and

15:52

the idea that you can treat , cure

15:55

, manage , prevent everything

15:57

with food . You just have to find the right

16:00

combination , the right

16:02

foods to eat or not to eat . And

16:05

I wholeheartedly believed that . When

16:08

I think back to when I went into

16:10

naturopathic medicine and when I was practicing

16:13

, I think that that was very much the

16:15

culture of what we thought we were

16:18

moving towards right , that we were going to find

16:20

this pattern of eating , this way of eating , that

16:22

we could just make everyone on the planet healthier

16:24

. And , of course , it sounds so

16:26

silly now , now especially that we're

16:28

understanding more about nutrigenomics and how

16:31

things are so individual and where this really

16:33

unique combinations . I think

16:35

that that still

16:38

permeates a lot of the therapeutic

16:40

diet conversations People

16:42

will want . Well , just

16:45

tell me what to eat , tell me what's best

16:47

, tell me what I shouldn't

16:50

have , tell me what are the worst things

16:52

to have . Well , I should never

16:54

have sugar , right , I should try not to have that

16:56

. What about coffee ? And it's

16:58

like women who get to midlife

17:00

especially . I feel like we've had

17:02

so many different diets and rules

17:04

introduced , taken away , changed

17:06

, reintroduced back again sideways , upside

17:08

down and inside out .

17:10

And turn it all around , put your left foot in , left

17:13

foot out .

17:15

And so often people say I just don't even know

17:18

what to eat anymore . I start the day

17:20

out low fat and I end the

17:22

day keto , and I've probably been vegan

17:24

at lunchtime and

17:26

I think that that is . That's

17:29

a product of all

17:31

of the diet culture and wellness culture

17:33

influences on

17:36

the field of nutrition , right , so

17:39

, yeah , so , when I think of where I would love

17:41

to see our profession

17:43

go is in

17:46

just the field of integrative medicine and , well

17:48

, really , everyone I

17:52

think that we have so

17:54

much more potential to really honor

17:57

that mind body

17:59

connection , that brain gut connection

18:01

. We can really support that , I think

18:03

, in ways that

18:06

aren't being done right now , without making

18:08

people afraid of food , because

18:11

that's really the and without food .

18:13

Yeah , it's the crux of it . People are

18:15

scared to eat . They think one food is causing

18:17

something . And another thing I

18:19

see all the time is

18:22

and I like to say to

18:24

individuals don't put your salad on

18:26

a pedestal . People think

18:28

you know to eat . Well , we

18:31

need to have these beautiful , deluxe

18:33

grain balls with 20 types of

18:35

lettuce in it and kale and quinoa and

18:37

all the stuff I'm a naturopath . I

18:39

don't like quinoa . Like dirty

18:42

secret . I'm a naturopath who doesn't like

18:44

quinoa . You better sneak that into something

18:46

because I do not enjoy eating it . Fair

18:48

game , right . But people always

18:50

come in thinking they have to have

18:53

20 vegetables in their salad for it

18:55

to count as vegetables . So I

18:57

always like to say let's lower the bar a little

18:59

bit . Lower the bar , take

19:01

salad off the damp head . That's it . Yeah

19:03

, that one is from you , thank you . And

19:05

it's always about taking salad off

19:08

the damp pedestal , because people think

19:10

that , oh , if I don't make

19:12

this exotic salad at lunchtime , like I see

19:14

the nutrition influencers doing it online

19:16

, then it doesn't count

19:18

. And I'm like it totally counts . It totally counts

19:20

to take pre-washed spinach and

19:22

toss it into whatever you're doing if you

19:25

like it . Bonus , there's

19:27

some vegetables , right ? So

19:29

I just think you know there's this wellness

19:33

culture that exists and it's

19:35

being kind of perpetuated more online

19:37

now that there's so much more photos

19:39

people are being exposed to of what eating

19:42

could look like . It doesn't mean it's what the

19:44

average person eats . Oftentimes

19:47

, social media influencers some of them like

19:49

celebrities , chances are have their own chef

19:52

making everything . Like let's get a

19:54

bit more realistic . And if

19:56

somebody is like photoshopping what they're

19:58

eating that day to pop it online to show

20:00

thousands of people , we need to

20:03

be really worried about what is the intention behind

20:05

that .

20:05

Yeah , that's

20:07

not real life , it's just everywhere , yeah , and it's

20:09

everywhere .

20:11

And then people start to look at okay , I have a lot

20:13

of food . I got a sandwich for lunch . It

20:15

was a so-called air quotes bad day

20:17

, like it was a great day . You

20:19

fed yourself at lunch . You

20:21

had lunch , right .

20:24

And sandwiches can be . You know I'm

20:26

a big defender , like I'm a self-appointed

20:29

chief defender of oatmeal and like

20:31

I'm second in command to the chief defender of sandwiches

20:33

, because sandwiches , to me , are

20:36

the perfect meal and

20:38

there's a reason why they exist in literally

20:40

every culture around the world . Every culture

20:43

around the world has figured out how to take bread

20:45

and put things in it and

20:47

serve it as a meal right , and

20:50

there's a reason for that . You

20:52

can build , you know

20:54

, the most delicious , quick , balanced

20:57

, filling , satisfying meal in five

20:59

minutes . You know , like when

21:01

did sandwiches become bad food

21:04

? Well , when we started to demonize

21:06

carbs , when we started

21:08

to put you know wheat

21:11

processed . You

21:13

know all of these things , and so when I get people to

21:15

, you know , reintroduce sandwiches

21:17

, like sometimes their lives are literally

21:20

changed because they can now feed

21:22

themselves , feed their families . And

21:25

when they can let go of the guilt and the shame around

21:28

having sandwiches , they

21:30

realize that like , oh man . I have been

21:32

led astray .

21:34

I've really been led astray and

21:36

I like to like like to look at using

21:39

even bread in a sandwich therapeutically

21:41

, like we want to move

21:44

towards regional styles of eating or

21:46

Mediterranean style of eating . I think

21:48

Mediterranean is kind of over

21:50

perpetuated , so I like to think of it as regional

21:52

food styles . But we

21:55

can get whole grains . We can get bread

21:57

that contains whole grains and proteins and

21:59

fiber and wonderful things to put in

22:01

it and it's portable

22:03

and it's easy and it's simple and it's really

22:06

easy to put together . We

22:08

don't need to be using all

22:10

these . You know there are a lot of . I

22:12

find a lot of irony in the wellness culture

22:15

because , you know , don't eat processed

22:17

foods , eat so called clean foods air

22:19

quotes , I don't use the word clean foods

22:21

. But then you have individuals

22:24

who are , but I use these bars and

22:26

when you look at the bars , I know

22:28

not to say use a snack bar . If you want

22:30

a snack bar , if you want a protein bar , have a protein

22:32

bar . But ironically for me , when I'm

22:35

working with individuals with IBS and eating related

22:37

issues , the first thing I look at is what

22:39

are you eating ? Because chances are that bars

22:41

loaded with inulin , which is a type of fiber

22:43

that can increase bloating . So

22:46

oftentimes it wasn't the

22:48

pizza , it wasn't the dairy , it

22:50

was the inulin in the bar . We take that

22:52

inulin out of the equation All of a sudden

22:55

. All the diarrhea , bloating , constipation

22:57

, distension comes off out

23:00

of the daily intake . It's amazing .

23:02

Yeah , and I just want to call that out because

23:04

I know right now there is one

23:06

of my patients somewhere who is listening who

23:08

goes oh my God , yes , I remember

23:10

when Jen figured that out for me , because

23:13

that is such a common thing If

23:15

you are using meal

23:17

replacement bars , if you are using

23:19

a vegan protein , if

23:21

you are using something that is labeled keto

23:24

and high fiber dollars

23:26

to donuts , dollars

23:28

to donuts inulin is in there and

23:30

inulin is like bloating

23:33

, like 101 , right

23:35

, everybody gets bloated with inulin . Yeah , that's such

23:37

a great example .

23:38

I love that and we were never

23:40

meant to eat like . Inulin

23:42

is traditionally coming from chicory root . We're never meant

23:45

to be eating chicory root like that

23:47

. Some cultures might have taken

23:49

it roasted , it made it into a coffee substitute

23:51

, but nowhere in any

23:53

human being . Even I don't know any

23:56

animals . We see chicory growing all the time at the cottage

23:58

. I've never seen anything start

24:00

chewing on chicory root like , hey , I need

24:02

some inulin today . It just doesn't

24:04

happen . So we do need

24:06

to be . You know there is an aspect

24:09

where we can't ignore that sometimes food

24:11

processing adds things it's

24:13

trying to add in boast oh , added

24:15

fiber . I'm seeing it showing up in pastas

24:18

even , and it's not

24:20

the pasta , sometimes it's just the inulin

24:22

triggering some symptoms . So that's

24:24

where you know working with regulated

24:26

clinicians who have an eye to

24:28

intuitive eating and aren't

24:30

perpetuating diet culture but are still

24:32

willing to explore and dig into the nutrition

24:34

aspects . It's important we can't

24:36

ignore therapeutic nutrition and I think

24:39

a lot of

24:41

like lay individuals , like individuals

24:43

who don't have training as registered dieticians

24:45

or naturopaths , or maybe even some physicians

24:48

, might have training and nutrition knowledge

24:50

hopefully . But you

24:52

know , if people are coming at it and just be anti

24:55

diet , it doesn't matter what you eat , just eat

24:57

till you're eat , so you're

24:59

not hungry anymore . Eat till you feel comfortably

25:01

full . All the rest doesn't matter . It's

25:04

like we know the rest still matters

25:06

. We can't ignore . If you're not getting

25:08

your base nutritional requirements , we're going

25:11

to see pattern disruptions

25:13

in mood . We're going to see pattern disruptions

25:15

and hormone balance and you can't just

25:17

add protein to your plate and think all your hormone

25:20

troubles are over . It doesn't work like that . It

25:23

can be helpful to stabilize blood glucose

25:25

, but it's not going to fix if you've got raging

25:27

PMS every month . We

25:30

need carbohydrates . For that we need

25:32

calcium , for that we need our nutrients

25:34

right .

25:35

Yeah , and also you

25:37

know when we're talking about how can we support

25:39

health with nutrition . And

25:41

you know , when we get to midlife we start to

25:44

have conversations around things like

25:46

cholesterol and high blood pressure and

25:48

cancer prevention and fall

25:50

prevention and bone health and all

25:53

of these things like brain health , like all

25:55

of these things that you know . Nutrition

25:58

and diet in general

26:00

are top three for

26:02

managing all of those , for trying

26:05

to age well , and it's

26:07

really hard to do that . If

26:10

you're worried that seed oils are toxic

26:12

, if you worry about every bite

26:14

of carbohydrate , if you worry that soy

26:16

is going to cause cancer , if

26:18

you worry about all of these things

26:20

, and if you're worrying about those

26:22

things because of the conversations

26:25

that you're having with your healthcare providers

26:27

and you're getting conflicting information

26:29

, that's a problem , that's

26:32

a really big problem . You know

26:34

I always joke that if it was just

26:36

about knowing what to eat , I

26:38

probably you and I probably wouldn't have jobs , because Google

26:41

would have figured that out right . If you

26:43

need to know , like , what is the pattern of eating that

26:45

is most associated with health and longevity , and

26:47

yadda , yadda , yadda we've already kind of touched

26:49

on it . It's that Mediterranean style of eating , but

26:52

people have such a hard time with

26:54

that because of this , food

26:57

is medicine culture that has permeated that

26:59

. There's still going to be something better . There's still

27:01

a way that I can like bio hack life

27:03

by having , you know , coconut

27:05

oil in my coffee in the morning . And

27:07

once you start doing it , even

27:09

if you have no idea why you're doing it , if you do

27:12

it long enough and becomes a habit , you start

27:14

to think that you have to because

27:16

it kind of finds its way into your life . And that's the problem

27:18

with bad information is that

27:20

you know , even if it's well intentioned

27:22

and most of the time I have to believe that

27:25

it is even when that information is given with

27:27

the best of intentions , if

27:29

it's not true and

27:31

if it is not based on current evidence

27:33

and God knows , things change right

27:36

.

27:37

And , looking critically

27:39

, appraised the evidence . So I like to think of like

27:41

bullshit science , bs science . It happens . People

27:43

think , oh , what study showed it's

27:46

like ? It was a study in 12 elite

27:49

athletic men who were in a hospital

27:51

, not even out in the wild

27:53

living . It doesn't apply

27:56

. We cannot be putting people on

27:58

nutritional interventions without

28:00

a significant body of evidence

28:03

to count on . And when I I

28:05

taken a course through Harvard and it

28:07

was on evidence based optimal nutrition

28:09

and we don't actually see

28:11

evidence it , can

28:13

we rely on something if it's , if we

28:15

haven't even looked out two years , five

28:18

years , seven years of a pattern of eating

28:20

, and I don't know about you , but

28:22

most diets

28:24

like two weeks to a month

28:26

and people are off and on and off and on and

28:29

it's not helping people . We don't have evidence

28:31

to show that . You know

28:33

, the one example I can think of is

28:35

an individual that I was working with recently

28:38

went paleo

28:41

, paleo or

28:43

no , intermittent fasting and keto at

28:45

the same time thinking this

28:48

is going , this is going to help them with

28:50

their weight goals , and

28:52

this is six months in . So

28:55

how's it going ? If you feel

28:57

that's the way you need to eat , I'm , you

29:00

know , I'm going to offer you some information

29:02

. But if they felt that that's the way for them

29:04

and there's no going around it . But I

29:06

asked how is it working for you ? Wasn't

29:09

their binge eating on sugar

29:11

at night because they're not

29:13

eating ? They're not . They weren't eating

29:15

breakfast , they weren't actually even meeting

29:18

, and what scared me , they weren't even meeting a third

29:20

of their needed protein requirements

29:22

. They weren't even meeting half

29:24

of their carbohydrate requirements . So you

29:26

basically let's starve you all day

29:29

and then you're going to be into

29:31

the M&Ms or the sugar , the chocolate

29:33

or the ice cream to make up and

29:36

put 2000 calories back in and get

29:38

some carbs and get a bit of protein , get a bit of fat

29:40

. Which people you

29:42

know , when we look at evidence of nutrition

29:44

tracking , people are always biased

29:47

, not intentionally , but really

29:49

bad humans at remembering what

29:51

we ate .

29:52

Yeah , we're not even remembering how we slept

29:54

.

29:55

If I ask you from sleeping

29:58

evidence , from cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia

30:00

, for example , if I ask you an

30:02

hour after waking , anytime after

30:05

an hour after you woke up , I can't rely on the

30:07

information on hey , how'd you sleep last night . If

30:09

I ask you within an hour , it's going to be more accurate . But

30:11

with food , people forget . People

30:14

forget . Oh , like I had , like this , I

30:16

forgot about the cookie , forgot to mention this , and

30:18

it's not not to demize the cookie . I hope people are

30:20

having cookies and enjoying them and really loving them . I

30:22

think it's so important . So

30:25

I love how , like anything you , we

30:27

talk about one thing and I'm like , yeah , and this

30:29

, jed , I know .

30:30

I know . So

30:33

what I want , what I hope people

30:36

have heard from this , is that

30:38

who you

30:40

get your nutrition information from matters

30:42

, and if the information

30:45

that you're getting isn't making

30:47

you feel more confident

30:49

with food and feel

30:51

better in your body , whether or

30:53

not you're managing a condition or not .

30:56

And improve your relationship with food . Exactly

30:59

Right .

31:00

That you know . I think

31:02

it's really . I always tell people like you

31:04

absolutely have a right to ask for evidence

31:06

. So you

31:08

know a common one that comes up people

31:11

you know be told that their hemoglobin A1C

31:13

is a little high and you know

31:15

their healthcare provider tells them just watch your carbs , just cut out

31:17

the carbs and the sugar and you'll be fine .

31:20

Lose 20 pounds and cut the carbs

31:22

. Thanks , exactly , asshole

31:25

. Yeah , that's what I think , cause that is really

31:27

helpful . You didn't help

31:29

guide that person .

31:31

Right , no , yeah . And

31:33

a really kind of interesting story to kind of tie it

31:35

all together from a few months ago

31:37

was , you know , this patient of mine

31:39

had a pretty good relationship with her primary

31:41

care provider and you know , I

31:43

had , you know , kind of coached her on saying like , can

31:45

you just say I've read conflicting

31:48

information ? Or you know , I've been working

31:50

with a dietician and this is what they've

31:52

been telling me . Can you maybe just give me

31:54

some you know , references or resources

31:56

to understand where this , where your advice

31:58

, is coming from ? And

32:01

to his credit , he fully admitted

32:03

I actually don't know . It's

32:05

just what I thought we did . Yeah

32:07

To me . That kind of blew my mind

32:10

, because that is actually how

32:12

a lot of medicine is practiced . It's just

32:14

the way we've always done it and it's not to

32:16

bash like .

32:17

I want to be very clear is it's not

32:20

the intention is never to like bash

32:22

another healthcare provider . I think every healthcare

32:24

provider comes into healthcare

32:26

because they want to help people , but

32:28

they don't know the damage that can

32:30

be done by flippantly saying

32:32

, okay , go lose weight , go

32:35

cut out sugar , cut the carbs

32:37

, when they don't necessarily

32:40

have more than a couple of hours of trading and

32:42

nutrition . Their job

32:44

isn't to help guide people in nutrition . Their

32:47

job , especially if they're not even

32:49

assessing for patterns of disordered

32:51

eating or difficult relationships with

32:53

food or eating disorders . It

32:56

can actually cause harm and it really

32:58

scares me when individuals are getting kind

33:00

of quick suggestions

33:02

and , like I said , the intention

33:04

is there , the intention is good , but

33:06

it's really , at the end of the day , not helpful , not

33:08

even a proper recommendation . It's like going

33:11

to see a practitioner

33:13

who just says , oh , go take probiotics . It's

33:15

like let's get a little bit more specific

33:17

about what that looks like . Why , how

33:19

long ? Is there a certain strain that is

33:22

proven to be beneficial in certain conditions

33:24

? So it's the same thing

33:26

Like why are we taking nutrition advice

33:28

from someone who's

33:30

not ? Actually ? That's not what they

33:32

focus on . Yeah , oh , my goodness

33:35

.

33:36

I love this conversation . I hate to wrap

33:38

it up but we've got to say goodbye . But

33:40

I know if people are interested

33:42

in learning more about you because you have an amazing

33:45

skill set . You're in Ontario , so

33:47

why don't you just tell our listeners a little bit

33:49

about how you work with people and

33:51

how they can learn more from you ?

33:54

Yeah , I work with people two different ways , either

33:56

in naturopathic care or as

33:58

an RN psychotherapist , specific for psychotherapy

34:00

around gut , brain interactions

34:02

and eating

34:05

types of issues . Usually I'll

34:07

assess someone , but if someone's looking for naturopathic

34:09

care , they can find me at drsilvymartoncom

34:12

or nourishingwellbeingca and

34:15

you can get all the information on my website

34:17

.

34:18

Awesome , and we'll have all the links in the show notes too , as

34:21

I always ask my guests . Though , what do you think is the missing

34:23

ingredient in midlife ? I

34:27

didn't tell you about this question before .

34:29

No , I love this , though . Permission

34:32

to seek pleasure

34:34

Whether it's

34:36

pleasure from doing things

34:38

, pleasure from enjoying something deliciously

34:41

tasty is

34:43

that permission ? Oftentimes I find

34:46

I am lending people permission when

34:49

I really want them to give themselves

34:51

that permission , and that's part of self compassion . So

34:54

Absolutely .

34:56

I love that . Thank you so much

34:58

for your time today and I'm sure that you'll be back

35:00

at some point , because we have an indefinite

35:02

number of things that we can talk about .

35:05

Put us on . It'll just keep going . So it's

35:08

great to see you , jen , and thanks

35:10

for having me on the show . It's always a pleasure to connect .

35:13

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of

35:15

the Midlife Feast . For more non-diet

35:17

, health , hormone and general midlife support

35:20

, click the link in the show notes to learn

35:22

how you can work and learn from me . And

35:24

if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful

35:27

, please consider leaving a review or

35:29

subscribing , because it helps other women just

35:31

like you find us and feel supported

35:33

in midlife .