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Ross Atkins. This is the media

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show from BBC Radio 4.

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Hello, and welcome. We've got

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two subjects today. In a minute,

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we'll talk about Spotify. It's announced

1:00

cuts, made changes in management. The

1:02

CEO says perhaps they got carried away

1:05

with new investments. We're gonna try and

1:07

work out what's going on and what all of

1:09

this tells us about podcast and music

1:11

streaming and ongoing efforts. To

1:14

make money from those endeavors. First

1:16

though, we're gonna look at the fallout from a

1:18

two part BBC documentary about

1:21

India's Prime Minister, Narendra Modi.

1:23

It's called India the Modi question. It's

1:26

on iPlayer right now, and it

1:28

explores tensions between mister Modi

1:30

and India's Muslim minority. It

1:32

also looks at claims about his role in

1:34

the two thousand and two Gujarat riots

1:36

in which over a thousand people died.

1:39

Now, This documentary wasn't broadcast in

1:41

India, but it's caused uproar

1:43

there. This is from near the beginning

1:45

of the first episode. He

1:48

is the leader of the world's biggest

1:50

democracy. He

1:57

came to power, promising a

1:59

new age of prosperity. But

2:08

his rule has been marred by

2:10

religious turmoil. While

2:13

the impact of this documentary has been amplified

2:15

in India by social media, and

2:17

the Indian government's acted on this. An

2:19

adviser to the government has called the program

2:22

hostile propaganda, and anti India

2:24

garbage. He also says the government ordered

2:26

Twitter to block tweets linking to clips

2:28

of the film. And that YouTube's been instructed

2:31

to block uploads of it.

2:33

And so if this is a documentary about

2:35

the prime minister, the fallout

2:37

from it is also about media

2:40

and press freedom in India

2:42

too. Let's begin with Rishi Ayenga.

2:44

Staff writer at 4 policy magazine who's

2:46

live with this from Washington DC.

2:48

Rishi, thanks for joining us on the media show.

2:51

What would be the Indian government's justification

2:54

for asking Twitter and YouTube to

2:56

remove these clips? Thanks

2:58

for having me. The so the Indian

3:00

government, the law that the advisers

3:03

cited, when he spoke

3:06

about blocking this documentary and

3:08

said that Twitter and YouTube had to reply

3:10

is an update to India's

3:13

in IT rules

3:15

or 4 technology rules

3:18

that was first floated

3:20

in in twenty twenty one. And

3:22

what he cited was emergency powers

3:25

that give the government the

3:28

government the ability to

3:31

order the takedown. Of

3:34

of anything that threatens the

3:36

sovereignty, national security

3:38

of India, or friendly

3:41

relations with foreign countries. It's something

3:43

that critics have said is kind of an

3:45

overbroad definition

3:47

and and the set of parameters that

3:51

that may allow the government to go

3:53

after

3:54

go after and take down online content

3:57

it doesn't like. And does the government use

3:59

this law frequently on

4:01

media content that perhaps it doesn't approve

4:03

of?

4:05

Increasingly so. Yes. The

4:08

this is not the first time that the

4:10

Modi government has clashed with

4:12

Twitter in particular and with

4:14

social media companies more broadly.

4:18

There have been instances of

4:20

police raids on on Twitter's headquarters

4:23

in the past there and and Twitter

4:26

has actually filed a lawsuit

4:28

last year against against the Indian government

4:32

calling these measures overbroad

4:35

and and saying that it it

4:37

impinges on the fundamental rights of

4:40

of Twitter users in India. That

4:42

lawsuit is still ongoing. But

4:44

there is a broader sentiment

4:47

of of, I guess, the context

4:49

of this is that Modi has also

4:51

very effectively used social media

4:53

to come to power and to

4:56

to stay in power. He is the most

4:58

followed active world leader on Twitter

5:00

now with over eighty six million followers.

5:03

But the Modi and

5:05

his government are also increasingly

5:08

intent on controlling the narrative,

5:11

both externally and internally,

5:13

but especially internally. And so

5:16

the given social media's reach

5:19

and Twitter's small

5:21

size but outsized influence in the country,

5:23

it has it has frequently become

5:26

a target and social media companies

5:28

have frequently become a target of this

5:30

government. Well, Rishi, you're talking about Twitter.

5:33

Twitter has confirmed to the BBC that it has

5:35

blocked fifty tweets based on a request by

5:37

India's Ministry of Information and

5:39

Broadcasting. A YouTube spokesperson

5:41

said the video had been blocked from appearing

5:43

by the BBC due to a copyright claim,

5:46

and a BBC spokesperson says, as

5:48

his standard practice, we follow procedure to

5:50

have illegal uploads of any BBC content

5:53

removed. That doesn't necessarily, though,

5:55

contradict that statement from a government

5:57

adviser that the government has also requested

5:59

certain clips are removed from

6:02

YouTube. Rishi, you're staying with us. Let's bring

6:04

in Supriya Sharma, editor of the Indian News

6:06

website, Skol, and Ramanjit Singh

6:08

Chima, Asia policy director, at

6:10

the digital rights organization accessed

6:13

now. And Roman, in a previous job,

6:15

you worked for Google in Delhi as

6:17

their government affairs manager

6:20

I wonder what it was like interacting

6:22

with the government.

6:26

Thanks, Ross. I'd say that what

6:28

want us to keep in mind if you're working for a tech

6:30

or social media platform. And in India,

6:33

there's a very active job involving quite a

6:35

few requests and tensions around content

6:37

removal as well as user data. And if

6:39

you see the public disclosures from tech platforms,

6:42

this is matter of public record. India

6:44

tops many of those lists. And in fact, what's

6:46

the most concerning is ever since I moved

6:48

out of working for private company, and

6:50

on the both results of that organization, the

6:52

numbers have increased massively. India

6:55

now is number one and number two in many of the

6:57

transparency reports. Published

6:59

by Facebook, a matter, by

7:01

Google, by Twitter. And what you've seen

7:03

since then in fact is a more concerning sort

7:06

of doubling down on intimidation and

7:08

pressure. When I was there, there were moves to

7:11

potentially amend regulations Some of

7:13

these blocking rules were passed, but the government

7:16

acknowledged the then government acknowledged there were problems

7:18

with them. And then in supreme court, even

7:21

temporarily protected some of these rules from equal

7:23

challenge saying that we would trust that the government

7:25

will let people know when they're blocked and

7:27

people can approach Indian court to challenge these

7:29

orders. And today, you have a federal government,

7:32

which is showing nearly five

7:34

thousand plus accounts

7:36

or more to be blocked every year. This is

7:38

not data out of thin air. The South African law

7:40

center in India filed right to information

7:43

requests in India where they discovered from twenty

7:45

fifteen to twenty twenty two. Over fifty

7:47

five thousand examples of content had been

7:49

blocked by a mix of executive branch and court

7:51

orders. And today, you have the Indian Federal

7:53

government regularly showing blocking

7:55

of journalistic sources or

7:58

activists of elected lawmakers, and

8:00

they're doing it saying it's secret. If today, I won't

8:02

really challenge it. The government could tell me we won't give

8:04

you copy of the

8:05

order, and let's fight both. But,

8:07

Robin, let's let's get into the detail

8:09

here of how this works. Because

8:11

India's foreign ministry has called this documentary

8:14

a propaganda piece designed to push

8:16

a particularly discredited narrative. We

8:18

know because Rishi has been explaining it to us

8:20

that the law that's being used to justify certain

8:23

clips being removed is a

8:25

law that looks at, and I quote, anything that

8:27

threatens India's sovereignty and

8:30

relations with foreign countries, who

8:32

makes a judgment over whether that

8:35

is correct, whether the government has

8:37

judge this issue

8:38

correctly, can it just take it on its own, or

8:40

can the courts intervene to to

8:43

correct the government? The

8:45

the legal reality is that the

8:47

government's not supposed to interpret it on its

8:49

own. The government's supposed to follow both what the courts

8:51

have said and the limitations that Indian

8:53

courts have issued. Remember, India has

8:55

protected fundamental rights in its constitution,

8:58

and what that means is that the when the

9:00

government says French friendly relations with foreign states,

9:02

That's subject to a court saying

9:04

later. Was that necessary? Was that proportionate?

9:07

Was that a genuine reason? Mhmm. But the way the government

9:09

currently does it today is that it's purely the

9:11

civil service. It's the executive branch. It's

9:13

the purely the political executive. It

9:15

is civil servants who meet, who decide

9:17

whether something has to be blocked on request from

9:19

other folks in government. And when

9:22

they issue these orders, these are not shared with

9:24

independent oversight mechanism, no role

9:26

for for parliamentarians, no role

9:28

for the courts, and the review mechanism by

9:31

which you can challenge or oversee this is

9:33

another omniservice, all of whom are appointed

9:35

by under the pleasure of the Prime Minister.

9:38

So that means that you can challenge it if

9:40

you go to court, but you'll not be very lucky or

9:42

have a very good set of lawyers. And even then,

9:44

you most probably may lose or you'll wait for

9:46

years. So evidently, you've got concerns

9:48

about how all of this works. So, Sapria,

9:50

let's bring you in your editor of the Indian news

9:52

website scroll, have you been

9:54

surprised at the scale of the reaction

9:57

to this BBC documentary about

9:59

the prime minister?

10:02

Thanks, Ross. No. Not really. The

10:04

two thousand and two Gujarat riots are a sensitive

10:07

subject to the Norwegian Modi government in the

10:09

run up to the twenty fourteen national elections.

10:12

When Modi first contested for

10:14

the Prime Minister's Office, the ruling

10:16

party, the BJP, its

10:18

image managers worked as seriously to

10:20

get rid of a shadow of such a trial,

10:23

so revamping his image from

10:25

a Chief Minister, who allowed

10:27

anti muslim violence to go unchecked, to

10:29

a chief mister who brought development to his

10:31

state and promised to bring that for the rest of the

10:34

country. And that messaging

10:36

work, the B2B, won that election Shun

10:39

Modi became the prime minister. And

10:41

since then, what we've seen is that last

10:44

sections of the mainstream media in India

10:47

have been reluctant to question the

10:50

b to b's narrative, several

10:52

major outlets and critically amplify

10:55

the establishment narrative to a point

10:58

where the public memory of the two thousand two

11:00

Gujarat riots has faded worse

11:03

even have to start it in the process.

11:05

And then comes this BBC's documentary, which

11:08

reminds everyone of what happened. And

11:12

it's now being viewed by a

11:14

a generation of Indians born

11:17

after two thousand two who went

11:19

familiar with events that

11:21

took place then and are now

11:23

viewing this documentary in screenings

11:26

on campuses, screenings that administrators are

11:29

clamping down against. In some cases,

11:31

we've seen that college

11:34

administrators went to the extent of

11:36

cutting off power in Internet in

11:38

Delhi University, students have been detained.

11:41

In the state of Rajasthan, students have been

11:43

suspended for watching the documentary. So it's

11:46

Actually, this band has only ended

11:48

up finding interest in the documentary.

11:51

And the fact that it comes from BBC,

11:53

which is well regarded, it's seen as a credible

11:56

source. It's made it harder for the government

11:58

to discredit

11:59

it. And

11:59

before I ask you a couple more questions,

12:01

Sapria, I was the criticism from the Indian

12:04

4 ministry about this documentary, the

12:06

BBC's reply to that criticism has

12:08

been that the documentary was rigorously researched

12:10

according to the highest editorial standards.

12:13

We offered the Indian government a right to reply

12:15

to the matters raised in the series. It

12:17

declined to respond. And superiors

12:19

I was listening to described that some large

12:22

media outlets often side with the

12:24

prime minister. Is that any

12:27

different to what you might find in lots of countries

12:29

where certain media outlets are sympathetic

12:31

to one political perspective and

12:34

some to another. Is that particularly unusual

12:36

or necessarily a problem?

12:41

Well, Ross, it's been well documented that

12:43

media freedoms have been steadily declining

12:45

in India. More journalists have been with

12:48

police cases arrested, killed, along

12:50

with legal harassment that's been a rise in

12:52

more violence and online abuse. This

12:55

very same journalist who were reporting critically

12:57

on the previous government and had the

12:59

freedom to do their jobs. And now under

13:01

pressure, This is, of course,

13:03

partly a function of political polarization,

13:06

and that's not just happening in India,

13:08

happening other parts of the world as well.

13:10

What we're seeing here is that the ruling party

13:13

and the government have labeled any

13:15

adverse reporting as agenda driven

13:17

and fake a minister in the multi government

13:20

famously coined the dumb press prostitutes

13:24

to give an example of how people in high

13:26

offices have essentially find

13:28

a text on journalists and it's created a chilling

13:30

effect where it's become harder

13:33

to do free and actually rigorous

13:35

journalism that speaks true to

13:37

power. And then on top of that,

13:39

the government's brought this draconian instrument

13:41

of the 4 technology rules that

13:44

are being used with in

13:46

a in a rather opaque manner as

13:49

Raman just

13:49

explained. And those those IT guidelines

13:52

you're referencing are the same guidelines

13:54

that Rishi was saying at the beginning had been used

13:56

to have certain clips of this documentary removed

13:58

from Twitter. And from Facebook according

14:01

to one government adviser just to pick up

14:03

on what you were saying about the experience

14:05

of being a journalist in India in

14:07

the two thousand and twenty two edition twenty

14:10

twenty two edition of the press Freedom

14:12

Index published by reporters without borders.

14:14

India fell to the hundred and fiftieth

14:16

position, its lowest ever, that's out of a

14:18

hundred and eighty countries. In the last

14:20

edition, India moved up a little to

14:23

a hundred and forty two, the

14:25

Indian government responded to that saying the methodology

14:27

was questionable and non

14:30

transparent. Now if we're talking about the relationship

14:32

between the government and the press.

14:34

Let's also talk about the relationship between the government

14:37

and tech. And, Rishi, if I could bring

14:39

you in here, we've talked lot about

14:41

Twitter. Have you noticed any shift in

14:43

how Twitter is handling the Modi

14:45

government since Elon Musk took over.

14:48

So I think Elon Musk

14:51

is the big wildcard as we've

14:53

seen with his leadership of

14:55

Twitter and his ownership of Twitter in general

14:57

there appears to be

15:00

a a lack of a

15:02

lack of awareness on

15:05

the part of how Twitter is

15:07

used in the rest of the world, and

15:09

India has traditionally been

15:11

one of the biggest markets for all

15:13

of these tech companies and social media companies.

15:16

I think what's most indicative is

15:20

that there there was no comment

15:22

from Twitter and and Secondly,

15:24

when someone on Twitter asked Elon

15:27

Musk about the

15:29

banning of the BBC

15:30

documentary, his response was

15:32

this is the first I've heard of this. Yeah. In

15:34

fact, actually, Rishi, before you go on, I've got

15:36

that tweet in front of me, so I can I can read it

15:38

for everyone listening? He said it's the first I've heard

15:40

of it. It's not possible for me to fix

15:42

every aspect of Twitter worldwide overnight

15:45

while still running Tesla and SpaceX

15:48

among other

15:48

things. So he was claiming he hasn't been

15:50

involved in this matter at all. Yeah.

15:53

And and it's also

15:56

as soon as he took over

15:58

the company in October soon after

16:01

he lay he laid off roughly

16:03

half its global staff and reportedly

16:05

many of those cuts were in India in

16:08

in places like Nigeria and

16:10

the broader Africa team where where Twitter

16:13

was also briefly banned. And I

16:15

think the big shift I would say is

16:17

that Twitter in the past,

16:19

as I as I mentioned earlier, they actually sued

16:21

the Indian government last year over these rules.

16:23

Twitter has been at the forefront of

16:26

standing up for free expression even

16:29

against governments that

16:31

might threaten that pre expression.

16:34

And under Elon Musk, when

16:36

he took over, he he has

16:38

he has sort of styled himself as

16:40

a free speech absolute is. But he's

16:42

also said that he will

16:45

he will not interfere with

16:47

local the laws of the

16:49

land. It isn't done very. And isn't that a point?

16:51

And and Roman Jitsyn Chima from AccessNow.

16:53

Let's bring you in on this particularly because you used

16:55

to work for Google in a relation in

16:57

a job where you interacted with with

17:00

the government. Isn't it just the it

17:02

come literally comes with the territory that if your

17:04

big tech and you're operating in one country or another,

17:06

you may have to compromise your principles to

17:09

fit in with whatever the laws of that particular

17:11

country are.

17:13

think what it also requires you to do is

17:15

when you need to push back or clarify

17:17

what the law is, as I used to say, like, you, I

17:19

would have police officials drop by office

17:21

saying handover data on this issue, and

17:23

I would say, well, show the legal authority

17:26

for that for which matter. And the first automatic

17:28

response might be to say, no, how dare you ask us

17:30

that. And then there will be the question that if

17:32

you escalate this, we will go to court. We will

17:34

not hold back on this. We will push you to be

17:36

accountable. And that's the reality of India. In

17:38

fact, most journalists are aware. That they receive

17:40

overbrought illegal requests all the time,

17:43

you have to you have to push back and then

17:45

judges and lawyers, and sometimes

17:47

governments, ministers who clarify saying no. We cross

17:49

the line there or we won't do that. The reality

17:51

of democracy is is not every order is

17:53

legal. You can be overbrought. Remember,

17:56

Trump blocked access to several Chinese

17:58

services. And it is his courts who said his

18:00

country's courts who said that was overbroad. You

18:02

might even have a legitimate purpose, but the process

18:04

you followed is improper. And that's reality of

18:07

India. And that's what Nishu's point here that

18:09

he's not us understanding that, oh, well,

18:11

we pushed for free speech, but we had to comply

18:13

with with rules of with rules

18:15

from different countries is a little bit of a

18:17

juvenile understanding. Because in democracies, you

18:19

have to actually push back and contest when

18:21

something's overbroad. And that's what Tata said.

18:24

Tata said, we're not saying that the Indian

18:26

government can't ask for content to block the sensor,

18:28

but we're saying the Indian government's own orders

18:30

and won't practices violate their own

18:33

over broad rules and violate India's

18:35

constitution. And and that's the conversation that

18:37

company is that company need to have. So that's

18:39

how you think tech company should approach this.

18:41

Sapria, finally, if I could ask you, what about

18:43

you as an editor, a senior journalistic

18:46

figure in India? Do you hear from the government

18:48

on a regular basis? Does the government say to

18:50

you, no, that article can't stand, or

18:52

that video you've made can't stand.

18:54

Doesn't get come to that? Or we

18:56

aren't really getting direct communication from

18:58

the government. We are a small

19:00

independent outlet. We

19:03

do our work quite independently.

19:06

I can't say the same for large media

19:08

outlets in India. They may be

19:11

hearing from the government more often.

19:13

Mhmm.

19:13

But no, we are not. Having said that,

19:16

there's always this so on hanging over both

19:18

of us. As I said, if the

19:20

government can overnight invoke emergency

19:22

powers and to BBC documentary Outlook

19:24

circulation knowing well that this would

19:26

invite global attention even

19:28

criticism, then it's obviously significantly

19:31

easier for it. To censor the work of Indian

19:33

journalists. Well, Sapria and

19:35

Roman, thank you very much indeed, Rishi, just before

19:37

I let you go, the BBC is no stranger

19:39

to controversies around its

19:41

journalism. It's also operated

19:44

and broadcast in India for a for a good

19:46

while. Do you think this documentary will have

19:49

a long term impact on the BBC

19:51

standing in

19:51

India? I

19:55

think there is

19:58

I think what happens is the

20:01

the recognition, as Priya pointed

20:03

out earlier, the BBC is a

20:05

respected global broadcaster, and

20:08

and that is why the

20:10

the Indian government has maybe found

20:12

it a little harder to push back. But

20:15

but there is also a growing

20:18

growing sort of pushback

20:20

on on anything that criticizes

20:23

Modi. And so I I do think it will

20:25

have it will have some impact.

20:28

I I don't think the BBC's

20:30

ability to I don't see the BBC's

20:33

ability to operate in India

20:35

and certainly being being constrained.

20:38

But but

20:40

as we've seen with some of with the

20:42

with the tech platforms and the social media

20:45

platform, homes. There the

20:47

the Indian government is intent on

20:49

giving itself more and more power to

20:51

to control the

20:52

narrative. And so So

20:54

we'll have to see where that goes. Well,

20:56

thank you very much indeed for joining us. Those of

20:58

you listening. On iPlayer,

21:01

the documentary is called India the

21:03

Modi question. Thank to Rishi

21:05

Yenga, Supriya Sharma, and Roman

21:08

Jitsheng Chi Ma. Now,

21:10

Next on the media show, we're gonna talk about Spotify.

21:12

It's the biggest music streamer in the world. And a few

21:14

years

21:15

back, you might remember it made a

21:17

major move into podcasts.

21:19

Hi, guys. I'm Harry. And I'm Megan. One

21:23

of the things my husband and I have always talked

21:25

about is our passion for meeting people and hearing

21:27

their stories. And no matter what the

21:29

story.

21:32

What is up daddy, gang? It is your

21:34

founding father Alex Cooper

21:36

would call her podcast. Girl,

21:41

podcast.

21:42

The show. Real good. Experience. Train

21:45

my day, Joe Roku Podcast, my day.

21:51

That was the Harry and Meghan Podcast,

21:53

then the relationship's podcast called her Daddy, and

21:55

then the Joe Rogen experienced. They're

21:57

all parts of Spotify's, close to a billion

21:59

dollar bet on original podcast. The idea

22:01

was to become the Netflix of audio,

22:04

and it's an idea that's certainly evolving. Let

22:06

me just run you through a few developments. Spotify

22:08

has reduced its workforce by six percent.

22:10

The person in charge of its podcast strategy

22:13

left recently. Bloomberg has been

22:15

speaking to insiders and saying, Spotify's

22:17

future isn't exclusive podcast. It's

22:20

advertising. Then we have the head

22:22

of Spotify, Daniel X, saying in hindsight,

22:24

I probably got a bit carried away and

22:26

overinvested relative to the

22:28

uncertainty we saw shaping up in

22:30

the market. And then also this week, we have

22:32

Louis Vuitton announcing a new podcast

22:35

with Spotify. So it's all

22:37

going on and you could well be asking what

22:39

is going on. Let's try and find out Nick Hilton's

22:41

a podcast industry Analyst, he runs the

22:43

production company. Puddo, Nick.

22:46

Great to have you with us on the media show. Help

22:48

me out

22:48

here. I'm trying to piece together

22:50

what what's coming out of Spotify. It's

22:52

acquiring a bit of tea leaf reading. We're not we're not

22:54

exactly sure. And obviously, no billion

22:57

multibillion dollar company tells people

22:59

exactly what's going on in its its business

23:01

strategy. But the sense is that

23:04

Spotify has invested so heavily in podcasting.

23:07

Big bet, as you say, billion dollar bet.

23:09

There have been some successes, I think, Joe

23:11

Hogan's move to Spotify has been

23:13

a tangible success in terms of giving

23:15

it that market dominant position.

23:17

Others, like the Harry and Meghan deal,

23:19

I think, have probably not being such

23:21

an such an overt success. But either

23:23

way, the trend in Big Tech and we've

23:25

seen this at companies from Google to

23:28

Amazon to to Twitter and

23:30

Facebook, you know, the the the trend has

23:32

been to scale down 4 as investors

23:35

want sleeker companies that have a clear

23:37

road profitability. And right now,

23:39

it's looking like 4 Spotify where

23:41

they're saying it or not. They see that

23:44

that that podcasting and that expanded podcasting

23:46

operation is the easiest path to

23:47

trim. What were the snick is our on this

23:50

and blast founder of the earbuds podcast

23:52

collective newsletters area. Great to have you on

23:54

the on the program. I'm looking at figures from

23:56

last year in the UK. Five percent of time

23:58

spent listening to audio is podcast. Do

24:00

you think perhaps that this is not

24:02

to run podcast down at all that they need to be

24:04

treated as a relatively small part of

24:07

the audio

24:07

offering, whether it's for Spotify

24:10

or anyone else? I

24:12

actually think just the opposite. I think Spotify

24:15

has a huge opportunity to bring

24:17

potential listeners from zero to one

24:19

listening to no podcast to

24:21

listening to at least one podcast and that will

24:23

be get more listeners spending

24:26

more time with audio spoken

24:28

audio in their ears. think Spotify has

24:30

the opportunity to use its

24:32

landscape, to use its apps, to use

24:35

all of the infrastructure that

24:37

it has to bring more potential listeners into

24:39

the fold.

24:41

I think the key is that Daniel Ecker sort

24:43

of implied that he sees Spotify's

24:45

podcasting mission as mature now.

24:47

That it should be evidencing its successes

24:49

now. And I think that's the whole industry, which is

24:51

always treated as kind of nascent on on the verge

24:54

of being the expect thing. Mhmm. It is a mature

24:56

industry now. It may just simply

24:58

not be the biggest thing in the world. But

25:00

why is it not making money for

25:02

them? They're the biggest music streamer in the

25:04

world. They've got, as you've been describing, a mature

25:07

podcast offering, some people listening

25:09

might be

25:09

thinking, well, if they're not making money, who can? It's

25:11

it's hundred percent not a podcast problem. This

25:13

is a Spotify problem. Spotify is not making

25:15

money, has never made money, and it has

25:18

a complicated right deal with Music

25:20

studios record labels, artists that

25:22

has basically bled into its podcast offering

25:24

that they tried to use podcasts as maybe

25:26

a way of simplifying that difficult rights

25:29

relationship, but it it it

25:31

hasn't worked. And and Spotify needs to prove

25:33

that it's going to be a profitable con company

25:35

in the next few few

25:36

years. Otherwise, its investors are gonna start to ask

25:39

a lot lot more and lot more interrogatory questions.

25:42

So those issues are specific to Spotify.

25:44

Ariel, more broadly on podcasts

25:46

presume you look across the US market and

25:48

see lots of podcasts which are managing

25:50

to

25:51

well, not just make ends meet but make money.

25:54

Yes. There is a

25:57

lot of money happening for independent

25:59

creators as well as larger

26:02

publications and The reason that podcasters

26:04

are able to do that is because you'll

26:06

hear this time and time again. Podcasting is an

26:08

intimate medium. It is a trope that,

26:11

you know, gets talked about all the time, but

26:13

it is an opportunity for people to really

26:15

get into the ears of of

26:17

their fans right then and

26:18

there. And that allows for

26:20

advertisers to reach very niche

26:22

audiences. But is it also because

26:24

particularly in the US, but maybe in the UK

26:27

as well, your average podcast listener

26:29

is more affluent than the average American.

26:33

That the studies have shown that, yes,

26:35

podcast the average podcast listener is

26:37

is affluent.

26:38

Yes. And they are spending. And

26:40

Nick, if I bring you India, one of the things I was reading

26:42

before I came when I was in the article by you saying,

26:44

podcast of dead or was that effect. Now

26:46

I think you were slightly, you know, using a headline

26:48

to get my attention, which which which did the

26:50

job. So

26:52

Which did the job. But why do you think podcasts

26:54

are are on the verge of fundamentally changing?

26:57

I think if we look at the the program we're on

26:59

now, this show wouldn't exist if it

27:01

was just a podcast. There's an opportunity

27:03

to go out on radio 4, but it's also

27:05

a podcast. It's also TV show. You've got

27:07

these multi strand kind of

27:09

productions. And podcasting is

27:12

at a stage where I think that in order

27:14

to be a serious competitor. Across

27:16

various media forms, you have

27:18

to be a bit more dynamic, you can't just be

27:21

I'm gonna go out on this open RSSD, this

27:23

old school technology that's been around, unchanging

27:26

for fifteen years. It's like newspapers, not

27:28

refusing to go online when when

27:30

the internet was invented or or create

27:32

not creating a paywall or or also so opportunities

27:35

have come about for

27:36

podcasting, and I think we'd be foolish

27:38

not to take this opportunity to rethink

27:40

the

27:41

idea. Oh, do you watch podcasts or

27:43

do you just listen to them?

27:44

I just listened to them personally. Would you listen?

27:47

No. I would not. I personally am

27:50

somebody who likes to drive

27:52

the car while I'm listening. I like to go on walks. My

27:54

house is extremely clean because I listen to my

27:56

guests. I personally need to be doing

27:58

something while I'm listening or else I don't retain

28:00

the

28:01

information.

28:01

Alright.

28:02

And just quickly, Nick, any prospectus spotify

28:04

making money in the near future one way

28:06

or the other? I think that the

28:08

the the signs look so bad for Big Tech generally.

28:10

I think they're they're gonna slim down, they're

28:12

gonna cut back

28:13

and, you know, who knows, but I

28:15

wouldn't bet on it. Alright. Thanks for joining

28:17

us. That Nick Hilton, who runs the podcast

28:19

company, Podo. That was Ariel and Nissan

28:21

Black founder of the earbuds podcast collective

28:24

newsletter. Earlier on, we heard from Richie

28:27

Yenga, Superior Charmer and

28:29

Raman Jitsong Chima. As we

28:31

often say at the end of the program, you can hear

28:33

every edition of the media show

28:36

via BBC sounds including this

28:38

one which will be there in a few minutes

28:40

time. But for me for now, for me and the

28:42

team, thanks for listening and bye bye.

28:47

Sporting great. Ora Washington.

28:50

Who was Ora Washington? A born competitor.

28:52

Ora was champion in two

28:54

sports. She was the Michael Jordan of

28:56

women's basketball. She was a tennis

28:58

tap. But

28:59

while she was fighting for titles on the court,

29:02

she was facing prejudice off there. The

29:04

reason is racism and sexism.

29:06

Untold legends, aura, a podcast

29:08

from the BBC role service in BBC

29:10

Sound tells her remarkable story.

29:13

Search for untold legends wherever you

29:15

found this podcast.