0:00

This is the Meat Eater Podcast. We're in

0:03

Paduka, Kentucky.

0:06

How far out of Paduka? How about

0:09

six miles. We're at

0:12

the homestead of the gentleman

0:14

who just clarified our distance from Paduka, Kevin

0:16

Murphy, Um lives

0:18

here, not far from what rivers

0:20

down there, the Clarks River. There's

0:23

so many rivers rounding you can't keep all straight lives

0:25

down from the Clarks River. It's got

0:27

horses, sixteen

0:30

hunting dogs,

0:32

a garage that in my

0:35

that that I gave an organization grade

0:37

of I believe a D plus. You're

0:40

very generous, Steve D plus.

0:42

He would have gotten f but it was at least still

0:45

standing in there. Um.

0:48

The dogs Kevin owns

0:50

are small

0:53

game dogs, and we just spent

0:58

three or four We spent four

1:00

days in

1:03

and around western

1:05

Kentucky hunting

1:08

for a

1:11

variety of small game with dogs.

1:13

We hunted squirrels, we

1:16

hunted eastern cotton tails,

1:19

and today, for the first time ever in

1:21

my life, we hunted swamp

1:24

rabbits, which is

1:26

the largest of the cotton tail family,

1:29

and they are giants, five

1:34

pounders. All the

1:36

rabbits days, there's no doubt they would average over

1:38

five pounds, and you've weighed a lot of them.

1:40

Last year, we weighed twelve rabbits

1:43

at the same location and they all

1:45

averaged above five pounds. The smallest one

1:47

was four and a half. The larger one topped just a little

1:49

bit above six pounds with a digital

1:51

turkeys scale. So it wasn't a

1:53

bathroom scale. It wouldn't, you know,

1:56

tabletop. It was a digital turkey scale.

1:58

You know. My old man always would say that, Uh

2:02

the heat wade. Yi are we boring you?

2:04

No, not at all. I'm very interested in this book

2:06

that I thought it might come into play later in the

2:08

podcast. That's all. I'm just doing a little okay good.

2:10

I was just curious why you're reading the book during

2:12

the thing, Kevin,

2:15

Uh, what,

2:18

I want to talk about squirrels first, because that's what we came

2:20

down here for years ago. I was at

2:22

I was in St. Louis. We're

2:25

trying to think of it tonight when we're eating dinner. Probably three years

2:27

ago, it would be three and a half

2:29

and be four years it's coming April. I'm pretty

2:31

sure I was in St. Louis at

2:33

the I was doing a booth

2:36

appearance um

2:39

at the n r A convention, and

2:42

I think I was there. I think I was there for the network,

2:44

I think Sportsman Channel. And

2:46

I got to talk, and you know, when you're doing that, like I meet all

2:49

kinds of cool people, and we talked a lot about stuff.

2:51

But but Kevin, we

2:53

met and got talking about

2:56

squirrels, and I just sensed a

2:58

tremendous amount of ashen

3:01

for squirrel hunting. And

3:04

not only that, but I could tell that you have

3:07

that you have a very uh,

3:10

almost scientific approach to squirrels.

3:13

I'm used to seeing that level

3:16

of detail in appreciation

3:19

for the history and

3:22

the management and what's going on seasonally.

3:25

I'm used seeing it with turkey guys.

3:27

I'm used to seeing it with dear

3:30

guys, elk guys. You

3:33

get like sheep fanatics, but

3:35

you seldom meet someone who

3:37

is a lifetime student

3:39

of small game. There's a few

3:41

of us around, there's a there's a brotherhood of

3:44

us, but to very few here. There's

3:46

a ton of them. There's a lot of

3:48

local boys that you know,

3:50

we liked our dogs and guns

3:52

and horses and being outside and

3:55

whether it squirrel, you know, any kind of small game,

3:57

but the squirrel. We've kind of some squirrel fanatics

3:59

here. But what was interesting when we were talking

4:02

about all this, So you were born and raised here, yes,

4:04

just right in the vicinity, yes, And

4:06

what was interesting, as you said, it's cold times

4:09

to me over the last day, as we've been hanging out hunting together,

4:12

there was no option but the hunt. Like when

4:14

you were a kid, there's no option but the hunt. Small game. That

4:17

that was it, that was what we you

4:19

know, you joined us. You couldn't wait till you got

4:21

your first baby gun. Started

4:23

with a baby gun and you were after you

4:26

know, the barn rats and spurs, you

4:28

know everything. Nothing was pretty much off

4:30

limit when you're a kid there and you go

4:32

you go from bb gun to twenty two

4:35

and the rights of passage was to go out

4:37

and take a twenty two or a shotgun on your first

4:39

squirrel hunt and get your first squirrel. You

4:41

know, that was the the first

4:44

level of hunting there where you take something

4:46

with the farm is pretty much a squirrel. Uh.

4:49

Traditionally in Kentucky, Uh, squirrel

4:51

season comes in the third Saturday in August

4:54

and everybody hit the squirrel woods and

4:57

then they it was mainly mostly

5:00

deal hunters and uh

5:02

yeah, still hunt hunting

5:05

there not hound hunting. And uh I can

5:07

remember I was probably years

5:11

old. My dad was a big bird hunter.

5:14

Um even back then, the birds

5:16

we was getting just a little bit thinner. And

5:19

he decided that he had a cousin that heat

5:21

squirreld hunted all the time with when

5:23

he was a kid growing up, and he took

5:25

a German eight millimeter miles or I think you give about

5:28

like for

5:30

it back then and traded it to his cousin

5:32

for a crossed uphound squirrel

5:34

dog, and so that pretty much started. It

5:38

was a hound type. It would bark on track

5:40

and go around some kind of crossed

5:43

uphound. You know. It didn't have any distinguishing

5:45

marks about it, just an old red brown

5:47

looking hound, you know, I'm trying to remember

5:49

from fifty years ago. There's not any pictures of

5:51

it. Her name was Lady, and we

5:54

would go out hunting. My dad would be the rifleman,

5:56

and for some reason he had me to be the shotgun

5:58

with a little H and R

6:01

twenty gauge at full choke that shot

6:03

like a rifle. And

6:05

so and that's where I started my career.

6:07

And like I said, I have never never looked back and

6:09

and met people all over the

6:12

southeast, lifelong friends

6:14

that you know, twenty five thirty years I've

6:16

been been hunting with. And yeah, and at

6:19

the time, there was no deer, no turkey, not

6:21

like really huntable numbers. You're you're you're

6:23

correct, you know, small game was king, you

6:26

know, people rabbit hunting. We

6:28

did have quail in huntable numbers and

6:31

uh and in squirrels, and that's what that's

6:33

what we all pretty much much hunted around

6:35

here. What's interesting about that is, you

6:37

know, we've met so many people this week through Kevin

6:40

that and especially Danny whose

6:42

property we hunted on today. You

6:44

know that he was probably the third person this week

6:46

that I talked to personally that

6:49

said, I can remember when I

6:51

saw my first year really

6:53

you know what I mean. And Kevin said he remembered seeing

6:55

his first turkey track. Yeah, I can take you the spot

6:58

in the road right now where I saw my first

7:00

turkey track. And that's

7:02

like a generational thing that you know, people that

7:04

we are peers, like we all just

7:06

grew up with that stuff. Really dear

7:09

turkeys, big game hunting

7:11

opportunities. But you

7:13

think about it, like being born in Michigan. They

7:16

were like I grew up. Guys,

7:19

you can hunt deer. There

7:22

was turkey round us, but not a meet. Now it's a great

7:24

turkey hunting. Like after I moved away and left home,

7:27

my dad started killing turkeys in a mile or two of

7:29

our house every year. You

7:31

can hunt bear to the north of us. You

7:33

can put it in for an elk tag to

7:36

the north of us, all in

7:38

that state. Now,

7:40

had you rolled the clock back fifty

7:43

sixty seven years, it was a very different picture.

7:46

Yeah. But then my old man they

7:49

used to hunt small game all the time. They were real

7:51

serious about hunting contail rabbits.

7:55

But it's just different. But you know, you mentioned that thing, like you having

7:57

a twenty two year old man having a shotgun. I want

7:59

to talk about that, Like you're taking old prisoners approach

8:02

to squirrel hunting. Right when you

8:04

go out with with a dog, you know, some

8:06

somebody in the party needs to

8:08

take a shotgun. You know. Uh,

8:11

we try to kill the majority of them with the rifles.

8:13

But if we have one that's timber in there, you know we're

8:16

gonna shoot. We're not gonna go up there. I'm you know, very

8:18

rarely. Well, I'll let anybody shoot a sating squirrel

8:20

with a shotgun. I mean you're going, that's

8:22

not when when you've got a twenty two

8:25

rifle. I mean, if if that's the only means that you have to take

8:27

it, then then that's good to do it that a way.

8:29

But there's no sense to it. You know, we get

8:31

into two utilizing

8:33

that game. Mate. We don't want, you know, a

8:36

squirrel shot up with a shotgun. There there as

8:38

I've showed you guys the the

8:40

tails cleaning method of cleaning the squirrel.

8:42

If you've got a nice head shot squirrel,

8:45

it comes right out and the meat is just pressed

8:48

BEAUTI and uh yeah,

8:50

and and and I'll put out Kevin's like super serious

8:52

about small game cookery.

8:55

And you've eaten I mean thousands of squirrels.

8:57

Yes, yes, when

8:59

I got when I got into squirrel hunt and squirrel Home is

9:01

a big deal for us. It was in Michigan September

9:05

open day of squirrel season, so later, and you guys got

9:07

started, and we

9:09

got onto me and our brothers, we got

9:11

onto shotguns because

9:13

if we wanted to go out and get a bunch of stuff. And

9:16

when you're hunting, like I always divide squirrel

9:18

hunting into leaves

9:21

on leaves, off leaves

9:25

on squirrel hunting when the deciduous trees are still

9:27

carrying the leaves. It's

9:30

it's a listening game as much as anything where

9:32

you're out and you're just hear them up in the tree

9:34

tops and we get under them, and

9:37

a lot of times like you can't see them and they can't

9:39

see you quite as good. You get under them and you get

9:41

them moving through the tree tops and we'd blast them with shotguns

9:45

and they get full of pellets,

9:47

sometimes pretty bad depending um.

9:51

You know. In our dad, Oh, he would never would shoot squirrels

9:54

with it shotgun, you know. I remember

9:56

he would do use twenty two and he insisted

9:58

like two to the head because

10:00

of the meat damage thing. And he hated picking

10:02

shot. He didn't like the way the shot

10:04

carried for into the

10:07

meat. All that junk.

10:09

A good trick for that, just if you're listening. If

10:11

you do shoot something, birds, whatever, small

10:13

game, and you get where the pellet carries fur into the meat

10:16

or feathers into the meat, take it. Do you ever do that? Take

10:18

a toothpick, man, You take

10:21

a toothpick and poke it into the hole

10:23

and twist it all the

10:25

fur, all the feathers clicked around that toothpick

10:27

and you pull it out. It's just clean. Yeah,

10:30

remember that it'll look dark like because

10:32

the meat on you know, the light meat on rabbits and squirrels.

10:34

It'll look dark. And you don't realize because that pellet

10:37

drug a little bit of think

10:39

furn there and even if it passes through, like if

10:41

the pellet passes through, it'll leave all that fur and

10:43

feather in there. But you take a toothpick, sire, and toilet

10:46

pulls right out. That's slick. It's

10:48

slick. But anyhow, I

10:51

now I think

10:53

you said the same thing. I would rather have one squirrel

10:56

shot to the head of the twenty two then

10:58

three squirrels that got shot, yes,

11:01

because it's so clean and nice

11:03

that way. You know, I

11:06

agree with you. You know, you don't have to struggle

11:08

when you're you know, using the tail tail cleaning

11:10

method. You can clean that that

11:13

one squirrel just in

11:15

a flash, be done with it. If

11:17

it's shotgunning there, you you know, pulling

11:19

too. Sometimes you've got the gut squirting

11:22

out of the thing and it's just it's

11:24

just, you know, it just doesn't look that

11:27

good when you get done with it. Thing there you go beat

11:30

beautiful when it's all the wise? So,

11:32

uh, how how does like

11:36

put it to me? From from however

11:38

you'd like to discuss it? How

11:41

does squirrel hunting with dogs differ?

11:46

I can see that it's way more effective

11:48

than still hunting for squirrels. But just explain

11:51

the process of squirrel

11:53

hunting dogs, what kind of dogs,

11:55

what the dogs responsibilities are kind

11:58

of how you trained up your dog dogs, and what you expect

12:00

from your dogs when you're hunting

12:03

squirrels. Okay, um,

12:05

you know any

12:07

kind of dog can make a squirrel dog.

12:10

In in people say, well, I've

12:12

got a squirrel dog. But a squirrel dog

12:14

to me is a dog that can

12:17

use his nose, his

12:19

ears, his eyes to tree

12:21

a squirrel. There's a lot of dogs out there that can only

12:23

just use their eyes. They have to see it before

12:26

they bark at it and tree it, or

12:29

they have to hear it and then see

12:31

it before there or

12:34

then some of them may be a hand of the hand variety

12:36

can only use their smell to

12:38

go in there. But if you've got a top notch

12:40

what I classify as a squirrel dog, you

12:43

know there's dogs that can tree pre squirrels,

12:45

and you can kill a squirrel with it. And then there's squirrel

12:47

dogs. And a squirrel dog has these

12:49

three. It has sent in

12:51

ability, hearing ability, and

12:54

visual location. There those three

12:56

real quick. I'll probably interrupt you a whole bunch, so I'm

12:58

not gonna apologies every time. But when he's saying

13:00

hearing squirrels

13:03

bark, yes, so there's

13:05

that noise, I'll make like me, look at you

13:08

know. But then what he's man talking about

13:10

hearing is nails on bark, nails

13:12

on bark scuffling through the

13:15

uh, the leaves. That's a sure sign

13:18

giveaway that some of them can hear that from a

13:20

long ways, so not so they're

13:22

not necessarily waiting to hear him do a squirrel

13:24

noise. But he'll just decipher the

13:26

sound of one running and the sound of one

13:28

going through the woods, and he'll bay

13:31

that noise or you know,

13:33

and it may be something else running through the through

13:35

the leaves or something, but he goes down in a good squirreld.

13:37

I goes in there and said, well, this was a maybe

13:39

a deer running through the through the woods or something, or

13:42

or some other off game whatever

13:44

there and he'll he'll come back, come back.

13:46

You know, my

13:50

terminology of running the deers when they hit a deer

13:52

and they run off and they don't come back for an

13:55

i or two. Occasionally, you

13:57

know, we will bounce a deer there. Maybe

13:59

we got some young dogs whatever, but predominantly

14:01

we have no I have no trouble with

14:03

with with our dogs running a deer

14:06

whatsoever, you know, just to jump

14:08

away from squirrels from I'll tell you something I saw today,

14:10

and we were running swamp rabbits, not with your squirrel

14:12

dogs, but with your rabbit eagles. I

14:16

saw those dogs trail into a thicket

14:19

on a rabbit's trail, trail into

14:21

a thicket. A bunch of deer went bounding

14:23

out the other direction, and I thought for sure

14:26

all those dogs would go off in that directed

14:28

to but they didn't. They didn't

14:30

care. They stayed right on and came out there

14:32

side of the thicket, still on the rabbit's trail. We

14:35

couldn't have cared less. Yeah,

14:37

we you know, they

14:39

elect the e collar. You know some

14:42

people may referred as a shot collar. You

14:44

know that is I'm one of the main tools

14:47

of training dogs, and most

14:49

of them now have electronic buzzer, and all you

14:52

have to do is shock your dog

14:54

one or two times. When you shock it, they hear the buzzer

14:56

also. Then after that pretty much

14:58

they hear you can They've got a own button down

15:00

there that you can use. And once you tone those

15:03

dogs a couple of times, you

15:05

know, they realize that they're not supposed

15:07

to be running running the deers. You know, you may shock them

15:09

once or twice and then have to tone them. And after that we pretty

15:11

much don't have to. Now, if we

15:13

bring a young dog into the pack, something that's

15:15

around a year old, less than two years

15:18

old, year and a half somewhere like that, sometimes we have

15:20

just a little bit of difficulty with them.

15:22

But with the e collars, we

15:24

take care of that real quick. And if you

15:26

don't, you can lose your whole pack of

15:28

dogs real quick. Oh it's

15:30

in the dog's own best interest, man, I don't

15:32

think like I never stand being apologetic

15:35

about something like that. But go way for a dog to

15:37

get killed is to go chasing deer. Yes, yes,

15:39

because the ear's gonna keep going in a straight line.

15:41

He's gonna go out and roads and a

15:43

lot of guys they see a deer. They see a dog

15:45

running deer, the first impulse is to shoot the dog

15:48

because they think it's a fer old dog. But

15:51

it's just like a dog. Dogs

15:54

that run deer have less chance of getting

15:56

old. That's correct, a lot less of

15:58

a chance of getting old than dog wearing a shot color,

16:00

you know what I mean. So

16:03

continuing about all that, So,

16:05

like I said, you've got two types of dogs, a dog that

16:08

ken tree, a squirrel and a squirrel dog. Um,

16:10

you know, the best thing to do when you get a young

16:12

dog it could be, you know, try if

16:15

you're gonna go out shopping for a squirrel

16:17

dog. You know, look at the

16:20

guy that's got it, Look at his parents,

16:23

grandparents, if they're around whatever. You

16:25

know. Take that. So I want to go out with these dogs, You

16:27

try to get some type of dog that's got a you

16:29

know, a good history of being

16:32

bred to be a squirrel dog. You know. To

16:34

me, there's two categories of squirrel

16:37

dogs. Maybe you could say three there if

16:40

you really want to get into the hand right there. But you've

16:42

got the fast dog, which is Bobby

16:44

Jane. Oh, he's a small dog.

16:49

Fist F I E S T. And

16:52

uh you know that to me, that's a dog

16:54

that's usually under thirty pounds. There's an organization

16:57

called the American Tree and Fast Association

16:59

and they have um rules

17:01

and standards. Four dogs, uh

17:03

feist and it's usually like a I

17:06

think a male now can be way thirty

17:08

to twenty eight pounds, don't you know they're

17:11

about I have to have to look at the rigs and

17:13

then it could be so tall at the shoulders. Well

17:15

that's where Bobby Janeo is there. And

17:18

uh they're supposed to be dogs that you

17:20

know have those abilities scenting,

17:24

carrying and um

17:26

um using their eyes. And

17:28

then you have a cur dog which is like

17:30

but you bad Toe, which he's a cur that's

17:33

mixed in with a porner bird dog. And

17:36

we like to do that to give the dog

17:39

bigger. He's a little bigger curd dogs using

17:41

above thirty pounds to

17:43

lose his toe. You know. He was

17:45

that way when I got him as a puppy, when

17:48

I picked him out. But you, bad Toe was

17:50

supposed to be a barbie. Bad Toe

17:53

was supposed to be a girl dog. I

17:55

was getting ready to go on a fishing trip to uh

17:58

Ontario to fish with some walleye and that was

18:00

at a friend of mine's house and he had this brown

18:02

and white dog looked like a clone to to butch

18:04

you. They're running around his yards. Said man, I really

18:06

liked that dog. He said, well, says

18:09

so and so has got some more rems that he could probably

18:11

get you once is I said, what do you think he'd

18:13

let me, uh keep it for two

18:15

to three weeks and how I get back from Kennedy said, I don't

18:17

know. Let's just call him up. I said, I'd like to get a female,

18:19

because if you have a female you can breed

18:22

her to most anybody stud dog. If you have

18:24

a male dog, people are real hesitants

18:26

about taking your male dog and read it to their

18:28

fail So that's where you

18:31

know, I was wanting to get the kids.

18:33

Yes, but um

18:37

I went over there and picked out a dog, and for

18:41

some reason I thought he was a female.

18:43

And I get him home, and after like two

18:46

or three days and fooding with him out of yard,

18:48

all of a sudden, I was eight. I got

18:50

a male dog there. Yeah,

18:54

so you know, and like I said, he just all of a sudden

18:56

I looked and he had looked like he had a toll that was hung

18:58

up in a gate or something and has given any problems.

19:01

So he just got the butchee bad though. He

19:04

said of Barbie Bead though, but he's

19:07

got a real sense of of

19:10

using his nose. As you saw other day this,

19:12

a lot of the squirrels they tread had

19:15

been there probably an

19:17

I or two before, around the den trees.

19:20

Lots lots of heavy scent there and

19:22

uh um or

19:24

um. Bobby Jango didn't

19:27

treat that many that day there. He came

19:29

in after Butchie had him trade

19:31

and tread with him. You know, he supported him there.

19:34

But like I said, the curd dogs who usually

19:36

use their more more of their nose um

19:39

than than a fist. And then

19:42

you go into the hounds, and some sometimes people

19:44

take blue tickhounds or

19:46

or red ticks or whatever and try to train

19:48

them on squirrels or get them started on squirrels

19:50

first. But like I said, what they'll do they'll hit

19:52

a track and they'll start barking immediately, and

19:55

then they'll run that track to the tree or I

19:57

FicT or occurred doll. Predominantly

20:00

they do not bark any on track. They

20:02

might bark on a hot track or after

20:04

when they're chasing after a squirrel running.

20:06

You know, they've got him sight chasing him. They're barking

20:08

yepping it at that time. But when a hound

20:11

hits a track is you've probably seen with bared dogs

20:13

and in line dogs and stuff. You know they're all

20:15

barking all the time when they were on the track when you

20:17

we didn't, we haven't seen any of that. You

20:20

don't like your dog to bark. He's like, here's the

20:22

tree, the squirrel in this tree. Yes,

20:24

that's what the squirrel dog needs to

20:26

do. Is there's no need because all he's doing is giving that

20:29

squirrel. If he's barking on the way of the tree, that's

20:31

giving him warning, saying, hey, he's not here

20:33

yet, Now is my time to escape.

20:35

If the squirrel dog runs in there and trees,

20:37

the squirrel, especially younger

20:40

juvenile squirrels, they'll freeze up a lot of times.

20:42

They'll just stay, you know, stay there and

20:44

they wait. You know, they'll keep it tree till

20:46

you get there. Where If he's barking on a track,

20:49

that gives a squirrel warning time to get out and say,

20:51

hey, something is coming my way. Let's let's

20:53

leave here now. I'll

20:55

point out when when like

20:58

most of the squirrel hunt. Well, I'll

21:01

sit for squirrels, and

21:03

I'll still hunt for squirrels.

21:05

But what I generally do as a combination of the two.

21:08

So the way I would go out with a non dog hunter,

21:11

we'll go out for squirrels is like on the

21:13

perfect day, when everything gets planned out right,

21:16

I would go out just

21:19

before like because the squirrels don't move like you'll

21:21

see deer before you see squirrels in the morning. Like

21:23

deer, you'll be active before squirrels, but

21:25

a lot of times squirrels will be it'll still be kind

21:27

of gray, you know, when you'll see squirrels coming around.

21:30

But I'll go on the woods, and the first thing

21:32

I like to do is just go sit somewhere. Just pick

21:34

a great spot, sit, give it fifteen twenty

21:36

minutes. Am I seeing anything around. If

21:39

I'm not um,

21:42

I might move all the ways. It might be twenty

21:44

yards, might be a hundred yards, two h yards,

21:46

kind of sitting watch again, move real

21:48

slow or just trying to keep my movements still

21:52

and just hunt like that. If

21:54

I see a squirrel close but it's just out of range,

21:56

I'll sometimes wait or all wait for a good opportunity

21:58

to sneak up and get them.

22:01

But it's quiet. You know, you don't talk

22:03

and stuff like that. But hunting squirrels

22:05

the dogs, it's

22:07

like it's just like walking through the woods of your buddies.

22:10

Oh, it's just a lot of camaraderie.

22:13

Think you can go on, you can tell stories, talk

22:15

whatever you yeah, pretty

22:17

much blowhorns. You know.

22:19

The only time that that you might need

22:21

to be be quiet just a little

22:23

bit is when you're in there the tree and getting ready to shoot.

22:26

And you've seen how the squirrels move

22:29

around if somebody's talking. You're over there

22:31

getting ready to get a shot, and somebody talks right

22:33

there. All of a sudden, the squirrel, I've got this perfect

22:35

shot. Now he's moved over here, and

22:38

um, like I said, slight movement, hearing

22:40

whatever there though, that's the only time you have to be quiet

22:42

is when you're getting ready to put them put the keel shot

22:44

on it. Pretty much. The other day we

22:46

went out, we met up that

22:49

is cool area near here Land

22:51

between the lakes was

22:56

what's the Tennessee and Cumberland River right Tennessee

22:58

and Combing River. So it used to be a big isthmus

23:02

between the

23:05

Tennessee and Cumberland rivers. People called it land

23:07

between the rivers, like a big what's

23:09

about a hundred and seventy thousand acre

23:13

block where the two rivers come within how

23:15

many miles of each other. I'm just guessing

23:18

across there five miles,

23:21

not even not even maybe not even that far. So

23:24

you've got two big gas rivers that flowing

23:26

to the Ohio and at the time,

23:28

they're flowing north parallel,

23:32

and they got this chunk of land and people folks used

23:34

to call land between the rivers or between

23:36

between the rivers. They shortened but both

23:39

whites between the rivers between the rivers or

23:41

land between the rivers. And then for

23:43

reasons of flood control and hydro

23:47

electricity and otherwise,

23:50

just like are great fervor

23:52

to build a lot of dams in

23:54

the In the mid nine they

23:57

damned up first

24:01

the Tennessee River, first the Tennessee. After

24:04

the thirties, we had a tremendous

24:07

flood here nineteen thirty seven. I

24:09

talked to some of the old timers. They

24:11

said they could remember seeing whole houses

24:14

floating down the river. I forgot

24:16

it rained for like twenty eight days

24:18

in a row or something here. Instruction

24:21

very much, very much. Um.

24:24

Like I was reading this book, you had

24:26

just like unidentified children

24:29

that were never identified, founding back

24:31

eddies and just devastaates.

24:33

Yes, yes, they damned the river, and

24:36

yes, the flood control is a big part of it. Inspired

24:38

by that. By that flood, then they

24:40

damned the other river and it became instead of land

24:42

between the lakes or land between

24:45

the river, was land between the lakes because these

24:47

are two impoundments that both these rivers are impounded

24:50

before they flow into the Ohio, which

24:52

of course goes down to flow into the Mississippi down to

24:54

the Gulf of Mexico. Um.

24:57

They had this big chunk of land, and

24:59

then the UH the federal

25:01

government started a long

25:04

and and sometimes contentious process

25:06

I gather of buying out people

25:09

in this area, residents.

25:12

There was far It was very sparsely populated,

25:14

but still people there. Many people

25:16

sold out willingly. We're glad to go to

25:18

areas that offered more opportunity, different

25:20

kind of jobs, better land.

25:23

Some people were very much in love with where

25:25

they live and didn't want to move. But as

25:27

it went, it was turned into a

25:30

wonderful hundred

25:33

and seventy thousand acre right.

25:36

Yes, National Recreation are administered

25:39

by National Forest Um.

25:41

That's one of the biggest contiguous chunks

25:43

of public land anywhere

25:46

in this region. Open

25:50

three miles of shoreline on major

25:52

rivers and reservoirs. I mean, it's

25:54

just like a gym. I'd always heard

25:56

about the place, but I've never visited. But it's

25:59

kind of amazing. I mean, it's just this giant

26:02

block of land that you just

26:05

will take a lifetime to to see

26:07

it all thoroughly. And you've

26:09

done that fifty years of it. So

26:11

we went out here to hunt squirrels. Access

26:14

is easy, you know, there's a

26:16

lot of good access, a lot of good roles,

26:18

and there's a lot of nice big chunks of woods that don't

26:20

have a road running into them. But you it's

26:22

it's a really well run spot,

26:25

well thought out spot. But we went out, parked

26:27

trucks like kind of drove down a paved road, turned

26:29

on new dirt road, drove down the dirt road, pulled

26:32

off, cut

26:34

the dogs loose. There was a foggy no

26:37

heavily overcast grade A caught

26:40

the dogs loose, and uh, we

26:43

were hunting. You wanted to hunt

26:45

more thicker stuff. Yeah, explain

26:47

that thinking a little bit. Two reasons

26:50

um, one are mass.

26:52

We had a mass figure this year. It takes

26:54

about fifty pounds per aker of mass

26:56

to ride the wildlife

26:59

through the wintertime, and we were way below

27:01

that this year with a bumper

27:03

crop of squirrels. So what

27:06

that meant was they were gonna

27:08

eat everything up in the woods and when it

27:10

gets wintertime, they're not gonna have anything

27:13

no mast to eat. So squirrel the

27:16

mast is the acron's uh

27:18

mainly out there. I don't think they figured

27:21

the hickory nuts any at all. We had

27:23

a We had a very limited amount

27:25

of hickory nuts. To give any example here at my house

27:27

on fourteen acres,

27:30

I've got to four pacun

27:32

trees a front yard, several

27:36

h hickory trees um

27:38

produced nuts um

27:40

um. They ripened early. Uh

27:43

first, did you August? Traditionally when

27:46

a squirrel season comes in. The squirrels

27:48

came in. They wiped though the hickory nuts

27:50

out the first and the

27:52

next thing they attacked was my bacon

27:54

trees. They cleaned those and we

27:57

didn't have that strong a crop of them.

27:59

Do to we had a two severe winters

28:01

back to back and um,

28:04

my fruit fruit trees guys

28:06

to blueberries, uh,

28:09

blackberries. Um, it

28:13

killed the BlackBerry vines all the way back down to

28:15

the roots. And I had very limited

28:17

The year before last, I picked fourteen gallons

28:20

of blackberries. I was lucky

28:22

to get two gallons this year. Real

28:26

bad, real bad year for

28:28

production of fruits

28:30

and nuts for this season. Um.

28:34

Things that limited nut production.

28:36

Uh. In the springtime, a late

28:39

frost can can

28:41

kill the buds

28:44

of the trees there that produced the akrons.

28:47

Um. Red oaks produce acrons

28:50

every two years. White oaks produce

28:52

acrons every year. So and

28:56

and you know, not all the trees are lined up in cycle.

28:58

That doesn't mean that, you know, you go two years

29:00

and don't have any any acrons. They are all

29:03

different sinks there. But it takes two years to

29:05

produce a red oak acren one year to produce

29:07

a white oak acron. Um.

29:09

Getting back to our was that they ate the

29:12

hickron hickores first, they ate

29:14

the bacons, they hit the akrons,

29:16

and after they hit the acrons, they went into

29:18

there's a little pine thicket as you come down my drive.

29:21

They started eating the pine cones. So

29:23

you know, they wiped out that food source here

29:26

before the first of November, so they've got

29:28

nothing to eat. And I was just talking to to Jodie,

29:30

the squirrel hunter that that went

29:32

with us today. He said, you know, earlier sas you

29:34

know, we had all kinds of squirrels at the house. We

29:37

got none now, he said, my neighbor right down the road

29:39

killed twenty five squirrels out of these para trees.

29:42

So you know there they were outfraiding other

29:45

all the sources there. So you know, in

29:47

the woods now there's not any feeds, so

29:49

they're going to the to the thickets

29:51

to get whatever we'd seed. Mushrooms

29:54

might be growing there, digging around for grubs.

29:57

You know. The squirrel take advantage about any kind of food

29:59

source that's out there. Yes,

30:01

So rather than hunting like that. That was

30:03

the thing I learned, because if I was going out to

30:05

look for uh,

30:08

squirrels, I wouldn't be paying like

30:10

I wouldn't until now.

30:12

I wouldn't think about where those trees were in

30:14

production. My assumption would just be like,

30:17

oh, going to the big oaks because

30:19

of course there's acorns, but walking

30:21

around we didn't see shipfre acorns. You didn't

30:23

see if you'll remember, Steve, anywhere

30:26

where you saw turkey scratching or the

30:28

deer in there, we had squirrels

30:30

because there was still just a little bit of fade.

30:32

You know. Some of the trees did make some some

30:34

some nut acrons, but

30:37

but the big, the big part of the forest,

30:39

there's there's just not you know, we

30:42

saw one or two little logs there with a

30:44

another ship. Sure sign that we have squirrels

30:46

and vicinity is they'll pack acrons

30:48

up to logs and at

30:50

them there and you'll see the holes from the acorns. We saw

30:53

very very little little of that. Another

30:56

good point you had about hunting thickets. There's a lot

30:58

of vines and

31:00

those thickets. And as you get on

31:02

and on in the year, you get fewer and fewer squirrels.

31:06

Yes, like squirrels have they don't have

31:08

a friend in the world, Like everybody's out trying to kill them and eat

31:10

them. You get fewer and fewer squirrels.

31:12

And you're kind of now getting into the part of the

31:14

year up until early spring,

31:17

like when they're gonna have more where

31:19

you got the die hards right now are

31:22

the ones left in the woods, and

31:25

there's more security in

31:28

those areas where you have some thickets and vines

31:30

where they can get in there and have

31:32

protection from avian predators, that protection

31:35

from kyotes all the other stuff is trying to kill them.

31:37

Yes, it's it's new purposes. A little bit of

31:39

fade in there and plus protection. They they feel

31:41

protected. You know, they're out in the big woods,

31:43

then they're pretty much open prey for for

31:45

anything they can. The prey

31:48

can say them from long distance, can stalk them that

31:50

away. Like I said, if they're in the thickets and stuff, you know,

31:52

they were kind of little ravines and hidding. They're

31:54

not great big places, so you know, they had some pretty

31:56

tight quarters, so it would be hard

31:58

for you know, the predators to get inner to see him from

32:01

from a distance. And like you said, the birds

32:03

of prey, the owls, the hawks

32:05

and stuff have a little bit more difficulty in those

32:07

there's areas than the open forest. Yeah, and

32:09

we got out and we started hunting up a

32:13

what I would call draining, like just small drainages

32:16

you guys call hollows hollows. Yeah, that's

32:18

a local, local term. But I always heard that.

32:20

I never knew what the hell of meant. I thought they somehow meant

32:22

like, I

32:24

don't know what, like a little low pond

32:26

area, because like like a hollow I think

32:28

of like a bold depression. But you guys call a creek

32:31

bottom of Howel hollow. Yes,

32:33

yeah, I mean, I

32:35

mean just that's what you grow up. And we're gonna go

32:37

up the hollow here. And I don't

32:40

know where it came from, term of cooley Cooley.

32:42

Yes, I've heard of that out west. And then when

32:44

I was bear hunting down in North Carolina,

32:47

they called him bays. I said, where's

32:49

the bay? I don't see any water out there,

32:51

so we're gonna go up there. If you any of you guys

32:54

ever heard heard that term, Well, that was the

32:56

first time I've heard. We're gonna go over here and hunt this bay.

32:58

You know, we call them like we had vians,

33:05

but we think of it like a little bit steeper. But when

33:07

I went out west, I discovered coolie. What

33:09

are you talking about? Coolies? But yeah, coolie CEO

33:12

U L E. S would be like a It's

33:15

a type of all these different names

33:17

for drainages. If anyone's

33:20

interested in law, draw

33:23

gut Callahan calls them guts,

33:27

go up that gut anyone

33:29

interested in landscape terms. There's

33:31

a phenomenal book. It belongs on your shelf,

33:34

Kevin, because you're a great collector of books

33:37

that have uh, you know, very

33:40

dangerous arcane information

33:42

and interesting bits

33:45

of information that no one knows. There's

33:47

a book called by it was it

33:50

was compiled by Barry Lopez, called

33:53

home Ground Homeland.

33:56

Looked it up on your phone, Yannie, I

33:58

have it at home. Home Ground. Anyways,

34:01

it's a it's a glossary. It's

34:03

a big book. It's

34:05

a glossary of landscape terminology. But

34:08

it's all built out of great

34:10

passages from literature and other stuff

34:13

where you and you can look up any term, like I guarantee

34:15

you look up a hollow, it'll probably like Faulkner

34:17

and other people talking about what a hollow

34:19

is, coolly, any landscape term,

34:22

Arctic anywhere around the world. Anytime

34:25

someone's saying to you, like hard pan

34:28

or whatever, you like, what the hell is that mean? It's

34:30

in this book. It's a good book. I need

34:32

to get that. Yeah, it would fit right in with your

34:34

stuff. Man, it's beautiful. Do you find it home

34:38

ground? Well,

34:43

you're here and there. No, it's but if you

34:45

do find it, that'd be great. So

34:49

uh pushed up this hollow

34:53

and the dogs are doing We

34:56

just had one that more the first morning. Bobby Django.

34:59

Yes, yes, wind was just

35:01

yeah, I should point out wind was howling.

35:04

That was another reason we were staying down in the

35:06

hollow is because the wind was howling

35:09

and we're trying to find places where you get out of the wind

35:11

a little bit. Squirrels they don't like real whipping

35:13

wind. Tree tiles moving around, you can't

35:15

tell what's going on. And the dogs

35:18

are cutting out, like how far do they cut out? And they loop around

35:20

like that. Usually, if you just got a single

35:23

uh dog out there, Bobby Django ranges

35:25

anywhere from like a hundred maybe to maxim two

35:27

hundred yards unless he at

35:29

that two hundred yard point hits a squirrel or something, go feather,

35:32

but usually go out a hundred two hundred yards

35:34

and come back in and check out us. Yeah,

35:36

constantly, and you can guide

35:38

his movements. At first, I thought we just followed

35:40

the dog through the woods. But the dog,

35:43

even though he's going all over and covering many

35:47

many many times more ground than you're covering, he's

35:50

always working in these circles based

35:52

off year route. So you're sort

35:54

of suggesting to the dog

35:56

what areas we ought to be hunted, her

35:58

name, her name, suggestion whatever.

36:01

We're sending him in a direction, general

36:03

direction that we want to go. And he's cutting

36:05

giant circles around you all the time, hunting,

36:07

hunting, hunting now, and you kind

36:09

of forget about that. You don't forget about dog. But he's out

36:11

and you can't Sometimes you can't see him, but all of a sudden,

36:14

often grayness

36:17

of the morning, you'll all of a sudden

36:19

hear him going nuts and

36:22

then I mean nuts like squirrel food, I mean nuts like going

36:24

crazy barking.

36:27

Yeah, we call it traying training

36:29

squirrel. He's the dog is trying and

36:32

the first time it happened, I was incredulous.

36:36

First time it happened, he runs off, starts

36:38

going crazy. We kind of half

36:42

jog, half walk over there.

36:44

Get there. He's standing against the tree,

36:47

staring up into the tree, and we look up tens

36:49

of squirrel. Just

36:53

that's it.

36:55

It's a little more complicated that because then you gotta get

36:57

the squirrel, and it can be hard to find the squirrel

37:00

up there, but you you do,

37:02

like what what most squirrel hunters do

37:04

is if you're working in twos, it's

37:06

great because when you

37:08

approach the squirrel, he's gonna get some the trees between

37:10

you and him, and you might not notice them. Did

37:12

you find home home ground? Oh

37:16

Um,

37:19

The squirrel's gonna go on the backside of the trees. You can't see

37:21

him. But with two guys, one guy

37:23

holds tight, gets a rest

37:25

for his rifle, holds tight.

37:28

The other guy goes around making some noise around

37:30

the tree. The squirrel is gonna respond

37:33

to him by squirting back around

37:35

to the side of the tree the shooters on and that's

37:37

often the guy that gets shot or

37:39

the squirrels just gonna stick to where he was. And

37:42

you guys, circle and circle. I use binoculars

37:45

to look for my notice. You don't use binoculars to look for him.

37:47

Use your rifle, sculpt look for him. Yeah,

37:49

just one less thing I have to pack. He

37:52

used to. I used to go in and pack lots of year, maybe

37:54

a pistol in a little hatchet on the side.

37:56

I don't do that anymore. Just clean,

37:59

going as as light as I possibly catch.

38:02

So you look around and find them. And you and

38:04

these ones we were finding were all up in the top.

38:07

Yes, pretty common

38:09

on a windy day for them to go high for some

38:11

reason. I don't know if they feel secure

38:14

up there or why, but that I've

38:16

seen it happen lots of times,

38:19

lots of times. You know, people are amazed

38:22

of them doing that because one of the sure easy

38:24

ways to find a squirrel up there. You

38:27

know, you see their tail blowing in a win there, flapping

38:29

it's hard for them. And then the winding conditions.

38:32

You know, even though we don't like the wind hunting

38:34

the wind there, sometimes it is to our benefit

38:36

because it is very difficult for

38:39

the squirrels to hide their tail blowing

38:42

in the wind. But they're not up there like

38:45

feeding when they get treated by the dog.

38:47

They're going got pushed up there, and for some

38:49

reason they want they feel more secure

38:52

up in the top of the tree. And I don't

38:54

I don't. Squirrel would be

38:56

smart too, never

38:58

go into limbs. When they get

39:00

in trouble is when they push up

39:02

high into a tree into limbs. They're

39:05

thinner than they are. Yes, yes, they're

39:07

silhouetted. You know. You get this cilhouette of a

39:09

squirrel up there. It's pretty easy to we're gonna

39:11

do squirrels a favor, you would somehow communicate

39:14

to them. Never hide

39:17

on a limb smaller

39:19

than a man's thigh,

39:23

because they go up there and they hold still like they're

39:25

hidden. But you can see him from so far away up

39:27

from the top of the tree. Now, the squirrel that stays

39:29

down a little bit and gets in

39:31

the crotch of a tree, that's a

39:33

tough squirrel to find, very very difficult,

39:35

very difficult because you might see the

39:38

tail, but that doesn't do you any good. I

39:40

mean, it helps you look keying on the head, but

39:43

you can't shoot the tail. But probably know one

39:45

place that he can hide these tails in the crotch he goes.

39:47

He can pull that down in there, and it's it's tucked

39:49

in, you know, just like you know they

39:52

and they're that tail is not the winds blowing whatever.

39:54

It can't probably blow that tail inside that,

39:57

you know, if it's a pretty good sized crotch there, could

40:00

you know, fork in the tree can't.

40:03

They won't get out and flop around. So but

40:05

I've had him hiding pretty good on me when it's like not

40:08

or a pretty solid limb, you know,

40:10

six eight inches in diameter and the wind is not blowing,

40:13

and they're laying on top of it. Yeah,

40:16

and they get down. Yeah,

40:19

and you know what I've just picked up. It's just like

40:21

one arm, you know, or leg I

40:24

had that. They don't have arms, No, yeah,

40:26

I would say, I would say that arms.

40:29

Yeah, I don't know what you leg out front leg,

40:32

But I had that. I found. I found

40:34

that one of the ones. This time I can

40:36

see two were just grabbing around the thing. I

40:38

didn't see him do that like I used to see him do

40:40

it in Michigan of laying flat

40:43

on the top

40:46

of a limb. Fox squirrels are

40:48

notorious for doing that around here. Gray

40:50

squirrels, you know, some people

40:52

call him a cat. Squirrels are a little bit more cagier than

40:54

a than that. But but the fox squirrel,

40:57

first, I have seen him on the river bottom just trying

40:59

to be too too high off the ground,

41:01

you know, maybet

41:04

off the ground, just laying flat on it. You know,

41:06

he can just seem he's just trying to get flat

41:08

as he can on that on that limb. But you

41:10

do not see gray squirrels

41:12

do that much around here. Now

41:16

you brought up fix squirrel and gray squirrel. So you

41:20

know, there's always exceptions, a ton of stuff. So there's

41:22

gonna be some guy out there listening, and he's gonna

41:24

be like, good the tube. Oh, what I'm saying

41:27

is not true. But for

41:31

tree squirrels in

41:33

this country, in North America, tree

41:36

squirrels in North America, I'm

41:39

gonna give the what I'll call the

41:41

Big four. You

41:44

have the eastern gray squirrel, that

41:47

is a lightest gray squirrel.

41:50

Now, when you see a black squirrel,

41:52

you're seeing a color phase of

41:55

the eastern gray squirrel. In

41:57

some areas you go in and it seems like seventy

42:00

five of the gray squirrels are black.

42:02

It's typically the grays outnumber

42:04

blacks. In my mom's yard. Over my life,

42:06

I've watched man like all

42:08

the squirrels seemed black now and then they're gray, back and forth.

42:11

A gray, a gray phase

42:13

gray squirrel can give birth to

42:16

a black phase gray squirrel. I

42:19

have heard. I don't know if it's true that

42:21

maybe in some areas it's like maybe about

42:23

tent or black face. Does

42:26

that bring true to you? Well, you

42:28

know, we don't have any

42:30

any any black phase down here, gray none,

42:33

none. When I went to Walston and Manistee

42:36

for the first time. And we

42:38

were driving down the road and I see something

42:41

solid jet black. I think it looks

42:43

like well, I thought it

42:45

was a maybe a burnover

42:48

place, like a stump, you know, a stob,

42:51

small trees just sticking up right

42:53

there. Then I realized that was my first sighting

42:56

of a black squirrel. But we do

42:58

not have any black gray squirrels

43:00

that I have ever seen in this

43:02

part of western Kentucky. I don't think. I don't

43:05

think there's any. I don't know how far north you have

43:07

to go to see that, but the man

43:09

of State was the first place I had that's

43:12

that that the southern terminus

43:14

of that National Forest was about about

43:17

a mile and a half from where I

43:19

grew up. And yeah, I grew up with a lot of black face

43:21

gray squirrels now continue on the Big Four. The

43:25

fox squirrel doesn't

43:27

have as big of a range as the gray squirrel, but

43:30

it extends more westward

43:33

in the eastern gray squirrel. Both these squirrels

43:35

are mixed up because they've been introduced to a lot of places

43:37

accidentally on purpose, so there and they're

43:39

like native range is different than where they actually

43:41

exist. When I was going to graduate school

43:44

out in Missoula, Montana. We had squirrels

43:46

all over town. They weren't from there. Then

43:50

the western gray squirrel, which is fairly rare

43:52

squirrel got rare in recent

43:54

years. And now like you know, around Puget

43:57

Sound you have eastern

43:59

gray squirrels hell over impuge it sounds south

44:01

there you have native western gray

44:03

squirrel range. And then finally you got your pine

44:06

squirrel or red

44:08

squirrel those some people call fox squirrels

44:10

red squirrels. Pine

44:13

or red is a little souped

44:16

up, oftentimes

44:19

meat eating, fired up little squirrel

44:22

that kind of like almost seems like a has

44:25

like a weasel's intensity. And

44:27

there a northern animal, more

44:30

northern for tree squirrels.

44:32

That's the main thing. Now you've got different phases

44:34

of stuff here and there, and like down in Florida they got

44:37

with the monkey squirrel something

44:39

like that, the big gass fox squirrel, different

44:42

color. Um. I

44:45

think on a fox squirrel there's like tan

44:47

subspecies, and have the gray squirrel.

44:49

I think they're six I don't know, watch

44:52

wash there, but um. When I was

44:54

hunting on St. Vincent's Island in the Panhandle

44:56

of Florida, one time, one of the

44:58

funniest things I've ever said is a gray squirrel

45:01

in a palm tree. I just I just

45:03

thought that was he was up there and they

45:05

had a bunch of dead palm

45:07

fronds on it there, and he was up there playing rent

45:09

and I was thinking, I said, you know, there was something about

45:11

that. It just doesn't doesn't look right. For all my

45:13

years I've seen him either in a deciduous

45:16

oak tree or you know, decisions tree some kind,

45:18

or possibly a fir tree whatever. But just to see

45:21

a gray squirrel in a palm tree, just

45:23

that's that's like, you know, I'm I'm thinking, you

45:26

know, Gilligan's Islands with us with a squirrel all the

45:28

time. Squirrel hunter, Jimmy

45:30

Buffett Man, you know what I mean. So why

45:34

was I talking about kinds of squirrels? Oh, you're talking

45:36

about how fox squirrels like the lay up on top of the branch.

45:38

Now, you know Daniel Boone,

45:42

he one time was

45:44

with a

45:48

fellow named John Philson, wasn't

45:52

exploring writer. We spent a lot of time hanging

45:55

around during the frontier

45:58

years. He claimed to have

46:00

been out squirrel hunting with

46:03

Daniel Boom

46:05

and he even specified the year. I think he might have said

46:07

he was squirrel hunt with Boone, and later

46:10

in Boone's life, like after

46:12

the Revolutionary War, maybe

46:15

even as late as like eight in the early eight

46:17

hundreds, was all hunt squirrels of Boom

46:20

and described how Boone would find

46:23

squirrels laid

46:25

up flat tree, squirrels

46:27

laid up flat against the tree, and

46:30

he would take his rifle,

46:33

muzzle loading rifle, and

46:36

rather than hitting the squirrel with the lead

46:38

ball and you know, damaging

46:41

it severely, he would

46:43

shoot the tree and

46:47

so that the ball hit the bark

46:50

right up where the squirrel was plastered, and he would call

46:52

it barking him, and the just

46:55

the jolt from the hit and the bark

46:57

flying up with stunned to squirrel and sent it falling

46:59

to the ground. The

47:01

problem with Philson's story, it's

47:04

historians later put together

47:08

that the year Philson said he was shooting

47:10

squirrels of Boone, I think

47:12

he said he saw it happen in Kentucky. Boone

47:15

never stepped foot in Kentucky that year, so

47:17

Philson might have been pulling everybody's leg or mixed

47:19

up when it happened. But he was saying

47:22

that Boone was a big admirer of

47:25

squirrel meat, and that's how he hunted squirrels.

47:27

And when you see a squirrel hiding, it's

47:31

like laying against that tree.

47:33

I think of it every time because I always think, now, how

47:35

that would be an exemplary piece of marksmanship

47:40

to bark a squirrel like that. It

47:43

works a lot better to use rim

47:45

fire cartridges and shoot them

47:47

in the naga very much. You

47:50

know. I have seen on several

47:52

occasions, um where we have shot

47:54

squirrels in the head with a twenty two rifle and

47:57

it never penetrated on him, just put a skid

47:59

mark on him and come down. Never never

48:01

penetrate the skull, just kind of ricocheted

48:03

off and do that and

48:05

kill them or put them unconscious, and that's when

48:07

you you know, I have heard of people picking them up,

48:09

put them in their game pouch and then come back to life

48:11

and be crawling around and there. Yeah.

48:14

So you know, if we ever do that skinning one across

48:16

the head there, you know, we'll wipe

48:18

them on a on a tree there and make sure that

48:20

they are dead. But I have seen that

48:22

on on several occasions. It's

48:25

just hit a hit a squirrel with a twenty two.

48:27

Just if burne his hair, but never

48:30

break the skin, never be any sign of

48:32

blood, and stune

48:34

them and be down there, you know, not trying

48:36

to do that. It just it just happened. That happened

48:38

that way. What have

48:41

you ever? Like, you you've never called squirrels?

48:43

You know, you never had tried to squirrel

48:45

call? Whatsover. I'm the type of individual

48:48

I cannot sit still pretty

48:50

much, so I've got to be pretty

48:53

much on the move. I have done

48:55

some predator calling and stuff. I could probably

48:57

do the squirrel calling and get around, but I've never

49:00

never script squirrel call. Well, when

49:02

you squirrel call, you're not really trying to bring the squirrel

49:04

to you. You're just trying

49:06

to get one to light up the

49:08

bark, yeah,

49:12

to pause him. You

49:15

know, like you'll see one,

49:18

or you'll see one bouncing around and you can't get a shot

49:20

at him, or any number of things.

49:22

And you do that, and he'll

49:25

squirt up a tree and position himself trying

49:27

to figure out what's going on, or he'll start barking too,

49:30

and he'll go from kind of running to

49:34

he'll hear like what it sounds like his buddy doing

49:36

a warning cry, and then he'll get up

49:38

wanting to join in and chat or two and it let's

49:40

put him up in the spot where you can get a crack at him, so

49:42

it's not like you're sitting there calling turkeys.

49:45

You know, I don't think anybody really

49:48

uses it. I hear now and then of guys will

49:50

do a very

49:54

loud distress call with a turkey

49:56

with a squirrel call, almost like where you're blowing a

49:58

predator call noise and then

50:00

shaking the call to get like that

50:02

that really fast piste off call. And

50:04

they're saying early in the year when

50:06

there's a lot of young squirrels around. Sometimes

50:09

I've never seen it happen personally, but people say sometimes

50:11

you get it where you're just bringing squirrels down

50:13

the tree, coming down aggressively, trying

50:16

to figure out what's going on. But

50:19

you sure don't need to call squirrels to get ot the dogs

50:21

right, right, You just need a good set of eyes. How

50:24

do you how do you train up a squirrel dog? Well,

50:27

because I'm guessing you don't do like what bird

50:30

guys do of you

50:32

know, going out buying pen

50:34

raised birds and getting them all dizzy and setting them

50:36

out in the field, like you're not doing that. With squirrels, we

50:38

do something similar, you know, when when

50:40

they're pups. One of the first things

50:42

we may do is uh uh

50:45

put a squirrel tail on a like a cane

50:47

fishing pible on the line and getting

50:50

used to that and trailing around, putting up,

50:52

getting squirreled out of the bark. That's one of the biggest

50:54

challenges a lot of dogs where run squirrels

50:57

up the tree, track them up right there, but when they get

50:59

there, they just look up. They

51:01

won't they won't bark no

51:04

good. I mean, if he's two hundred yards away, we're

51:06

you know, where is it? Unless you've got a GPS track

51:08

and color on him? And and you know who wants a silent

51:10

tree dog? But get

51:12

a get a squirrel tail and get him to bark,

51:15

you know what We call it on a hang up, you know, we'll hang

51:17

it up somewhere, or we might pick a whole squirrel

51:20

off the road, up something that somebody's running

51:22

over in a car, drag

51:24

it around, hanging up, put it in a bush.

51:27

A lot of times, what I like to do and have done before,

51:30

is put it in a bush, maybe tie a piece of straining to that bush

51:32

or small tree, and then get back and shake it, act

51:34

like it's got some movement. Get that dog fired

51:36

up. You start there. Uh,

51:39

then the next next thing, you may go and trap

51:41

a noose and squirrel that maybe that's raiding somebody's

51:44

bird feeder or they need to get to his fruit

51:46

crop or whatever, and to

51:48

get rid of it and

51:51

bring it, show it to the dogs, let it loose,

51:54

let it run up a small tree where the

51:56

dog can see it there, and that gets them

51:58

fired up and get them started. Now, don't ever do that

52:00

more than one or two times, because after

52:03

that that seemed like the dogs you don't gain

52:05

anything either. He's gonna do it that first or second

52:07

time. If you do it the third

52:09

or fourth, it's kind of like you know, we were head to discussion

52:12

over shooting pen raised birds. Once

52:14

once you get a dog, and in my opinion,

52:16

in a pen raised bird, if you really want

52:18

a true wild bird dog, if

52:21

you do that more than one or two times, you're

52:23

gonna get that dog. Dependent on the

52:26

dizzy, highly

52:29

scented birds that

52:31

come out of these coop situations

52:33

there where they've got all kinds of unlimited

52:36

sin on them that a natural bird probably

52:38

does not have. This is just kind of my personal

52:41

opinion. You know, it's like he's living

52:45

this chicken coop with all this bird

52:47

extrement on the floor there. You know, a wild bird doesn't,

52:49

you know, doesn't live that way. A quail

52:51

will, you know, roost at night, leave

52:54

a quick you know louis droppings right there,

52:56

then they go on. They do not live in it day

52:58

in and day out. I know I never

53:00

thought about in that way, like how much smell a gun?

53:02

And but I have noticed that um

53:05

dogs get like dogs

53:08

that do that just can't cope with reality.

53:10

They can they can't cope with what real

53:13

They crowd, real birds. You

53:15

know, they think they can get

53:17

a lot closer to real birds than they can. Like

53:20

a rough grouse in the Midwest.

53:22

Don't hang out. You

53:25

can't. You're not gonna get up and point it from six ft

53:27

away. No, no, no, same

53:29

same way. And Upper Peninsula in

53:31

Maine or whatever. You cannot get in there and

53:33

get close to grouse and then just

53:36

and you run pointer. I want to point out point

53:38

out that you run pointers to I've

53:40

gotta said it right now. I used to have a

53:42

German war haired corner. But we

53:45

just had a recent trip back in October up

53:47

up to Maine. Uh, several

53:49

of us went up. There's one guy, real good hunter

53:52

there and he had some some

53:54

dogs that killed thousands on thousands

53:56

of quail in a pen. He took them up there. They

53:58

were totally worthless. He put

54:01

them up. But he thought that he you know,

54:03

because those dogs, you can go out there,

54:05

turnal news so that that that quail farm

54:07

it's there, and a point lock up

54:09

hold. You know, you go around them out there.

54:12

But they didn't have a chance up there against

54:16

in hunting. Grouse and quails two different

54:18

things anyway, too, So you know, so that was,

54:21

you know, the dogs didn't have a chance to begin with because

54:23

they're they're definitely two game birds.

54:25

I know that. I got a good friend that

54:28

I grew up with that always had bird dogs.

54:31

I tried to get him to go grouse hunting with

54:33

us, take his bird dogs. When I say bird,

54:35

does bob white quail dogs

54:37

up there? And the first thing out of his mouth

54:39

was he said, Hey, said, then grouse,

54:42

I'll ruin a good quail dog real quick.

54:45

Why does he Why does he think that? Because

54:47

you know, a quail will lock up stay

54:49

there. Grouse you cannot

54:51

crowd and they will not stay. They will

54:54

run sometime. And you have to have that. You have to have

54:56

that special dog that that

54:58

knows that hey, I can, I can. He

55:01

I smelled him right now at ten feet. Now

55:03

he's at twenty. I can move up another ten

55:06

mm and then then then

55:08

he moves up again. I can move up another tin.

55:11

That's I'm kind of a novice. Novice

55:14

so a grouse hunter, but I tried

55:16

to look at what goes on out there and

55:19

see and try to improve it

55:21

there. You know, I try to gain as much knowledge

55:23

as I possibly can, just like you know you

55:25

guys tear it up up there. Yes, well

55:28

this is our second second year, and you know when

55:30

we did, we had a very very successful

55:32

one day. I killed three woodcock and

55:35

in three grouse over a pointing dog, and that's

55:37

a pretty good accomplished. I was. I was trying

55:40

my best to limit out and

55:42

get four woodcock and four four

55:44

grouse over a pointing dog,

55:46

and that would have been a pretty good lifetime accomplishment

55:49

right there. And I got three and three. But I'm

55:51

still happy it's gonna be. We saw three

55:53

wood Cock today. You don't thing

55:55

I want to talk about too. With the dog and running

55:58

dogs for squirrels. Early

56:00

we're talking about, oh, you're running up there's a squirrel. That

56:04

happens. Probably

56:07

correct me if I'm wrong, But just from my perspective

56:09

from December hunting, that

56:13

happens at the time that

56:17

the squirrel is just sitting up there, like,

56:19

oh, there he is, you know, because

56:21

they got a bad habit of

56:24

disappearing in the nescent holes. It's

56:27

not a given. When I heard that dog bark the first

56:29

time I ran up got a squirrel, I'm like, man, we're gonna be done

56:31

doing this is no time. But the other

56:33

day we had we showed up in ten

56:35

of them treat into dentries.

56:38

There's no fault the dogs. Dog did his job.

56:40

He's like, I could tell you certainty

56:43

there's a squirrel in this tree. Now

56:45

if he went into a hole, that's not

56:47

my fault. I can tell you he's in this street. So

56:49

he's doing his job. But he's got

56:52

no way of knowing that there's a

56:54

two and a half inch diameter hold

56:57

nod into some limb up there in the square,

57:00

was not gonna come out of there. Anytime soon. Now, you

57:02

know, the day's very you know, we turned loose.

57:05

You know. The first one we trade was in a pine thicket,

57:09

and with all the pine cones up there, it was

57:11

just you know, we we gave it a pretty good look.

57:13

Course, twenty five yards away

57:15

another dog had a squirrel trade, pretty

57:17

hot and heavy, with thought, well, you know, we'll give this a

57:19

quick look over. Everybody looked out there,

57:23

you know. I I couldn't say it with

57:27

yeah, it wasn't there wasn't nest up there yet. Kid,

57:29

we'd start shooting into the nest, thinking

57:32

that with beaby guns and whatnot,

57:35

we shoot into the nest thinking

57:37

that. But I mean, yeah, just a

57:39

good chance of killing the squirrel never comes

57:41

out of the nest. Yeah, but

57:44

we stick. You'd drive them out of that shooting up

57:46

into there. But that's pretty silky. But

57:50

on some days, you

57:52

know, they're

57:55

only outside here. Again, I'm

57:57

gonna go back. And I talked to a friend

58:00

of mine after we had that hunt to day to see

58:02

what he had been doing up there, and

58:05

he's been facing some of the same problems. He said.

58:07

Other day, we made twelve d entries

58:09

before we ever killed a squirrel, and

58:12

I believe due to the

58:14

low food sources out there,

58:17

the squirrels are kg they're

58:19

leaning mean, everything's after him out there,

58:23

and a lot of times when

58:25

we've got lots of masks, I don't like the

58:28

first squirrels that we kill or come straight out

58:30

of the den. They're looking for food. They

58:32

have nothing in their belly. They can run off,

58:34

but you give them thirty minutes, forty

58:37

five minutes whatever. They gorge theirselves,

58:39

you know, and you've cleaned some of the squirrels where their stomach

58:41

their pouch is just pooching out. I

58:43

think they get lethargic, just like

58:45

a human does. When we go in there and do a buffet,

58:48

eat everything we've got. Well, you

58:51

know, I'm just gonna get and get

58:53

where the guy can't reach me, and I have to go

58:55

no further, you know, you know, just stay out here. And

58:58

I truly do believe that stomach

59:01

contents look like is uh my

59:04

little daughter she's three.

59:08

If you give her like cash using peanuts, she keeps

59:10

putting them in her mouth, but she doesn't get around the swallow

59:12

on them. I'm pretty sure she's walking around

59:14

and you tell like she needs some help, and

59:17

so she'll spit it all on your hand. It

59:20

looks exactly like squirrel stomach content. Yeah, just

59:22

a yella yalla tasty turns

59:25

into that, but she can't like yeah,

59:27

whenever she does that, I was like, man, it looks like cleaning squirrels.

59:31

But so they get you

59:33

know what you brought up anything I thought was interesting. Uh,

59:39

there's so little food out there that

59:42

they're probably burning more energy going out looking

59:45

for limited food reserves. And that's partially

59:47

keeping them around, maybe not even coming

59:50

out and not venturing

59:52

out far because it's just they're just not out

59:54

right now. They're taking it easy. Things are.

59:56

Times are tough, not a lot of grub. Going

59:59

back to the conversation with another fellow squirrel

1:00:01

hunter, he said, yes, Kevin said, you know, pretty soon

1:00:04

it's gonna be where you go out and hunt an

1:00:06

iron in the morning and the iron

1:00:08

evening. You get what you get, take your dogs

1:00:10

out. I mean as the season. As a

1:00:12

season progresses, because they're gonna be looke, you

1:00:14

know, moving less and less and lass

1:00:17

sir, as we getting it's gonna get

1:00:19

probably a little bit cooler and stuff. You know, right now, we still

1:00:21

got ideal conditions. What was it the day

1:00:23

before you all got here, seventy two degrees

1:00:26

we need that day probably got up into the

1:00:29

fifty nine sixty there during

1:00:31

that day. Do we get that high on

1:00:33

the first day? Cold cold that

1:00:35

day, But you know we haven't got cold

1:00:38

fingers now that the first

1:00:40

day we hunted, we killed six, Yes,

1:00:43

I saw seven, and it

1:00:45

probably had I don't know, not more than four

1:00:48

or five hole up on its not too many. That's

1:00:50

that's probably correct. Another day we went

1:00:52

out, we had

1:00:54

a bunch of hole up and nest up, and

1:00:56

then bam, bam bam, killed three in a row,

1:00:59

yes, three trees in a well. We had a two

1:01:01

pack and a one town And

1:01:03

then went on to den up probably

1:01:06

ten every bit of ten, yeah, every

1:01:08

bit of ten where that dog is bade

1:01:11

up on the tree, and that dog like no

1:01:13

doubt in his mind that he knows what's

1:01:15

up there. But you looking as plain as day holes

1:01:19

holes, you know, I

1:01:21

think a couple of them. We saw a few little

1:01:24

nut shavings where they'd come out and

1:01:26

eating. I said, I think they just come out from

1:01:28

the den's peddled around on the ground

1:01:30

there a little bit. He come in one

1:01:33

of my buddies. He's got a

1:01:35

a pet squirrel that

1:01:39

he keeps at his house there, and he'll

1:01:41

go out and show puppies that it's up hine. He's

1:01:43

got a condominium squirrel condominium

1:01:45

forward and wire

1:01:48

cages like a hamster cage. He can run up

1:01:50

and down all over right there. And that's another

1:01:52

way you can start a lot of people in the

1:01:54

area start dogs. That a way. Just go over and look

1:01:56

at him and run around. You know. I took

1:01:58

him a whole big, like three gallons of the

1:02:00

cons the other day that we're left over from my

1:02:02

trees from about two years ago that I didn't utilize

1:02:05

there. And he says, he says, right

1:02:07

now, Kevin said that squirrel his house

1:02:10

is cram packed full of

1:02:12

corn and nuts.

1:02:15

He said, I've never seen one do like

1:02:17

that before. Said it's cram packed

1:02:19

up. He packed, he packed it in up

1:02:21

there, and that's why he and, like I said, our conversation,

1:02:24

we don't know. He says, I think a lot of the

1:02:26

den trees out there that they've got a bunch of

1:02:28

nuts and stuff holded up in them. Don't know

1:02:30

that, you know, I said that just just looking at

1:02:32

his pets squirrel that he has that is

1:02:34

taking his nuts that he gives them out there,

1:02:37

you know, you know, you know, may put a half a gallon at a time

1:02:39

right there. And he says, you know, he the shells

1:02:41

are not there, says, you know, they're in that they're in that

1:02:43

house right there. He's got them packed in there.

1:02:46

What genders that squirrel he's got, it's a it's

1:02:48

a great squirrel male female, you

1:02:50

know, I don't know, I do not know. I feel like you ought

1:02:52

to put another one in there there. It's like we

1:02:57

might think about someone put you in a situation

1:02:59

like that one another you

1:03:01

know, man, he really had to do

1:03:04

that. Uh.

1:03:06

I had some big thought about this whole thing

1:03:08

with Oh, I

1:03:10

want to tell you this. We're hunting

1:03:12

deer in Wisconsin not long ago, and

1:03:15

also heard just this loud shrill

1:03:18

shriek and a squirrel going nuts too. At the

1:03:20

same time. You could hear all this. There's

1:03:23

a tree maybe

1:03:26

up there's a crotch and tree with a cavity, and

1:03:29

there's a mink and a squirrel fighting

1:03:33

outside the tree. The whole

1:03:36

the mink goes down in the hole, turns

1:03:39

round, so his head's coming back out of the hole,

1:03:41

and he's still fighting the squirrels trying

1:03:43

to get into the hole. Eventually

1:03:46

squirrel just says screw it and goes off and gets on

1:03:48

a limb and starts barking and carrying

1:03:50

on. And that mink we

1:03:54

wash up there on and off for two

1:03:56

hours. If he had come out, we had to notice that never

1:03:58

came out of that tree. I think he r in there

1:04:00

and and uh, eat all them,

1:04:03

eat all the young. That's

1:04:06

exactly what I would say happened exactly.

1:04:09

He went in there and ate him. Probably the highest

1:04:12

of my life I've ever seen a manking a tree um

1:04:18

going back to predators in a tree. I

1:04:21

guess it was back this

1:04:24

last year for two years ago there.

1:04:26

I've got some mulberry trees out here. Kentucky

1:04:29

used to have what they call the spring mulberry

1:04:31

season to hunt squirrels when

1:04:33

the mulberry trees become right to

1:04:35

have a spring squirrel. We still have a spring squirrel season

1:04:38

there. But I've got some mulberries

1:04:40

here at the house, and I could hear a squirrel

1:04:43

with that, given the the real

1:04:45

shriek sound rent there. And I had

1:04:48

a young squirrel doull ground here. I thought well, last take

1:04:50

him down there, and it kind of showing him that something's

1:04:52

going on on there, says, I don't know if they're breeding or

1:04:54

want but but it's making some kind of

1:04:56

strange noise. And I

1:04:58

went down there and there

1:05:00

was a snake that had a squirrel in

1:05:03

the top of that probably twenty five ft

1:05:05

up in the top of that mulberry, and was wrapped

1:05:07

around him putting the construction.

1:05:09

Tell him there, first time in my life I've ever seen

1:05:12

that. It's pretty pretty neat,

1:05:14

pretty neat. I tried to take a little video

1:05:16

with my my phone, but it was

1:05:19

too far away and couldn't get get any good. But

1:05:22

it looked like to me probably some type

1:05:24

of of a

1:05:26

rat snake, prairie king snakes, something of that

1:05:28

name. Some kind of constructor there, some kind of black constructor

1:05:30

there, Probably a king snake. I

1:05:35

want to get into hunting the

1:05:38

marsh rabbits, swamp rabbits.

1:05:41

What kind of dog like, what's

1:05:43

your dog for that? Well, I've

1:05:45

got a little blue tick beagle um

1:05:49

uh. And I also a little tri colored beagle

1:05:52

there you know, um

1:05:55

bagle ham.

1:05:58

These swamp rabbits, I've always

1:06:00

heard about him, but

1:06:02

they lived down on the like they're

1:06:04

down the low lowlands. We're

1:06:06

hunting around the banks. We're hunting

1:06:09

the banks of the Mississippi. In

1:06:11

the bottoms, it's like some areas

1:06:14

of sand mud, a

1:06:16

lot of briers, and

1:06:20

these things go down there. And one of the

1:06:22

most peculiar things about them is they when

1:06:24

they're huge, like you said, five pounds, they

1:06:28

have the trine logs where they

1:06:30

climb up and

1:06:32

defecate on elevated

1:06:35

stumps, whole

1:06:38

bunches of it up there. Now, then you've

1:06:40

heard it might have something to do with the

1:06:43

territory territories what I've heard before. To

1:06:48

go out and hunt them,

1:06:52

they'd be like, I don't even know where to begin,

1:06:54

because my whole life I

1:06:56

hunting rabbits. We are just drive rabbits, push

1:06:59

rabbits. You guys get lined up, depending

1:07:02

on how thick the cover is, fifteen yards thirty

1:07:04

yards apart, and you just push

1:07:06

through a good rabbit cover and you get a couple of guys posted

1:07:09

up on the opposite

1:07:11

side, and you squirt the rabbits out

1:07:13

and usually the guys posted up get shots as

1:07:16

they come going by. But

1:07:18

this you kind of line up and then you guys send all

1:07:20

these packs of beagles in there, and

1:07:23

once you kick up a rabbit, the

1:07:26

beagles start trailing it, and the rabbit

1:07:28

will go on a big loop or

1:07:32

multiple loops and

1:07:34

keep coming back around because he doesn't want to leave his

1:07:36

familiar area, and he keeps coming around.

1:07:38

And as you're listening to these things banging around,

1:07:41

you eventually try to get where you can head it off. And

1:07:44

in the case of the swamp rabbit, the rabbits out

1:07:46

a hundred yards ahead of the dog all the time. Yes,

1:07:49

so when you see the dogs coming, it

1:07:51

might be too late. It is too late.

1:07:53

The rab might already be gone at last. In

1:07:55

some occasions you get a rabbit that goes

1:07:58

out there and just kind of squats down there. But I

1:08:00

think I might have sold at a time or two to two

1:08:02

today, but after I

1:08:05

saw it too, But always after they've already been running

1:08:07

it forever. Yeah, I think one

1:08:10

of the longest trails I saw today's they pushed the rabbit

1:08:12

out four hundred yards from us.

1:08:14

It got out of ear shot. That

1:08:17

was curious because you had that GPS color on that dog

1:08:20

and I was like, listen to it fade and fade and fade,

1:08:22

and fading, and I was wondering, like, well, how hell like

1:08:24

in this thick cover, how

1:08:26

far does the dog's bart

1:08:29

travel? And when it faded

1:08:31

out of earshot, you held

1:08:34

up four fingers to me and said, like there four

1:08:36

yards out and it was a long time

1:08:38

yet I appreciate you hear him coming

1:08:41

back, coming back, coming back. We'veventually

1:08:44

killed that rabbit. Yes, yeah, we had

1:08:46

to. We had to push it back

1:08:48

into the area. It's

1:08:52

amazing to watch. By that time, we've kind of

1:08:54

like almost it seemed like we we had

1:08:56

to move up. We're jockeying in a position kind

1:08:58

of maybe get like a half moon half

1:09:00

circle. We came up

1:09:02

I think three times only there

1:09:05

before before we got that right back

1:09:07

into the area, but no one got a crack

1:09:09

at him. And then he went back out and started

1:09:11

cutting smaller circles, so

1:09:14

we had to like move our Yeah, like imagine

1:09:16

he's just going like a big spiral, like a traveling

1:09:19

spiral, like a circle that moves around

1:09:21

on a page, and we're always trying

1:09:23

to go up and get But you gotta be quiet,

1:09:26

extremely quiet with a swamp rabbit, extremely

1:09:28

because if he hears it, he's just gonna avoid you. Yes,

1:09:32

yeah, yeah, that that they were short stop.

1:09:34

And when I hung on there last year, I saw that

1:09:36

they would get up there and do those short circles

1:09:38

and they'd be a group of people back

1:09:41

and and I don't know if you had a chance to notice that,

1:09:43

if some even someone that whispered trying

1:09:45

to whisper, how that sound would carry

1:09:48

that far? And uh,

1:09:50

I had Chris with me as his You

1:09:53

know, Jason's coming through

1:09:55

the weeds there, but you know, something

1:09:58

crashing through there is a natural saying m

1:10:00

but the briars

1:10:03

and a brush hitting his corridora

1:10:05

Chaps was a man made sound. And

1:10:07

when they hear the man made sound there, they

1:10:10

just go other

1:10:12

way. I never will forget that deer

1:10:15

hunting one time, or deer shooting. I'm not a deer hunter.

1:10:18

I'm a deer shooter that down

1:10:20

at pause, climbed up in the tree stand and

1:10:23

had some cover roles on. I think

1:10:25

I it got

1:10:27

hot and I just didn't have room for him up to

1:10:29

stand, and for some reason I just threw them down on the ground.

1:10:31

Well I had a little prong

1:10:34

horn, but come

1:10:36

up to those cover roles

1:10:38

and smell of them there. Then

1:10:40

I thought well, I need some meat for the

1:10:43

freezer, I says, I'm like the last day of dear

1:10:45

says, I'm just gonna go ahead and shoot him

1:10:47

his books young and timber. And as soon as

1:10:49

I clicked, I mean, he smelt of my cover

1:10:52

rows. But as soon as I clicked

1:10:54

that, just for some reason, I just did the

1:10:56

man click on the safety

1:10:58

instead of an easy saved. As soon as

1:11:00

that that gun clicked,

1:11:03

that deer knew that that was not

1:11:05

a sound of the woods and ran

1:11:07

off. And that was one

1:11:09

of the neatest things out in the woods. You

1:11:12

know, he's snuggling up to your cover

1:11:14

y. Yeah, I mean he's sitting there sniffing of the cover

1:11:16

roles I just had on. That didn't

1:11:18

really bother him, But that metallic sound

1:11:21

did. I have that conversation all

1:11:23

the time with people where I'd

1:11:25

be like, everybody holds still. You know,

1:11:28

we're gonna wear earth tones, we're gonna wear camouflage.

1:11:31

Everybody's gonna hold real still. People

1:11:33

like, oh yeah, but I was at one time jogging

1:11:35

and I had a red shirt and I ran right past

1:11:37

the here. I'm like, that's great, I'm

1:11:40

glad they happened to you. But like I said,

1:11:42

we're gonna wear a camouflage. We're gonna

1:11:44

still because you just don't know, Like

1:11:47

you don't know what their deal is. Everyone

1:11:50

of them is different, you know. The

1:11:53

rabbid thing. I found that my experience doing

1:11:55

rabbit drives, and we spent tons of

1:11:57

time doing rabbit drives, this one thing is getting

1:12:01

a sense of how the rabbit is gonna travel and

1:12:03

then being cognizant of your shooting

1:12:05

lanes. I found beneficial

1:12:08

today very much, very much

1:12:10

like you're always like you're

1:12:13

always jockeying, and you were encouraged

1:12:15

me in that direction too. You're always

1:12:17

jockeying to be

1:12:20

like once the first spot I walked into, you

1:12:22

told me there's no point

1:12:25

being here. Yeah, you can't see anything

1:12:27

because you need to see you Ideally,

1:12:29

you want to get where you're seeing forty yards through a

1:12:31

little lane so that when the dogs run

1:12:34

that thing through, you got a chance to look at

1:12:36

it. Because it's not gonna be like a long time. You're

1:12:38

gonna have a narrow, narrow window,

1:12:41

you know, into a three foot of elevation makes a

1:12:43

big difference. You know. I actually saw somebody

1:12:45

in the deer standarday trying to see what was going on,

1:12:48

and that really and I killed and

1:12:52

I actually killed a contentail the other day when Jayson

1:12:54

and I we're hunting there. I got that twelve

1:12:57

fourteen feet in the air, saw the rabbit coming,

1:13:00

it comes by, you know, and getting that everybody

1:13:02

else on the ground, and you know, you

1:13:05

get advantage. And just sometimes two

1:13:07

or three foot standing on the stump a lot of

1:13:09

times will give you a little bit of an age

1:13:12

out there. And you

1:13:14

want your field evasion out to you know, if it's a big

1:13:16

tree right there in front, try to move maneuver

1:13:18

up and get in front of that tree and get a little height

1:13:20

advantage there where you can say because if you if

1:13:23

you have no if it's all a thick cover, you have

1:13:25

no chance of you know, get the shot.

1:13:27

Seeing what's coming out there, and it doesn't take

1:13:29

much to hide those rabbits now

1:13:32

now talking in feet, not really in

1:13:34

yards. Once they get to that fifteen

1:13:37

twenty ftmark, all of a sudden,

1:13:39

just like the smallest little bit of briar

1:13:41

lee for something, they stopped and you're

1:13:43

like, where do you go? Where do you go? I was standing next

1:13:45

to two They are gonna name any names

1:13:48

now, but two guys where I'm

1:13:50

like, there's a rabbit coming. There's a rabbit

1:13:52

coming. See him coming right at you at twelve o'clock,

1:13:55

and I mean, he's just hopping along reel

1:13:57

slow. But the guys were just weren't picking him

1:13:59

up, know, out

1:14:01

of that dear stand. That was interesting because

1:14:03

you're right. Also, I got little elevation.

1:14:06

I could see a rabbit at it like two yards.

1:14:09

And imagine you put down your three middle

1:14:12

fingers down on

1:14:14

the table, and I'm looking down

1:14:16

kind of your middle finger, which is like this thick

1:14:20

but small tree, you know, brush

1:14:22

kind of cover, and there's two open lanes being

1:14:25

your other two outside fingers, and

1:14:28

I sent three hunters. One

1:14:30

of them kind of is close hugging your middle

1:14:33

finger, and then the other the other hundred

1:14:35

the other two hunters are each taking those open

1:14:37

lanes and just kind of working towards

1:14:40

the main forest out away from me where I saw

1:14:42

this rabbit. They worked

1:14:44

through there. They wait a while. The dogs were doing

1:14:46

a circle on another you know, rabbit somewhere off

1:14:48

in the distance. They wait, wait, wait,

1:14:50

ten or fifteen minutes goes by, no

1:14:52

rabbit. They don't kick up the rabbit. They

1:14:54

move on out of sight. You know, this is two hundred

1:14:57

yards away from me, not ten minutes

1:14:59

later, right down my middle finger

1:15:01

coming right at me through that you know, rough

1:15:04

rush. Here comes a swamp rabbit. Maybe

1:15:07

not the same rabbit, but I

1:15:09

mean right with These three hunters have just rocked

1:15:11

through, and here he comes, just slipping through. Yeah,

1:15:14

they're super sneaky. It's one

1:15:16

of the more you know, I've done all kinds of

1:15:18

hunting. It's one of the more exciting things is

1:15:21

when those dogs get on the track, and

1:15:25

it's not exciting right away because you know it's gonna

1:15:27

be a long ass time until they bring it back around.

1:15:29

So when they first take off, you can just sit

1:15:31

there b s because it's like nothing

1:15:33

to get that excited about. But eventually they'll

1:15:35

bark way the hell out. They get a couple hundred

1:15:38

yards out, you'll kind of hear them come

1:15:40

back. Then everyone will

1:15:42

be like, okay, we better get serious. And

1:15:44

you fan out and you get where you got

1:15:46

a little lane, maybe two lanes, you can actually

1:15:48

see what's going on down in the swamp, and

1:15:52

you hear those dogs coming. You know he's out ahead of

1:15:54

them. Is one of the most exciting hunting

1:15:56

moments there is, Man, I

1:15:59

had a great time, you know, you

1:16:01

know, I get excited out there and

1:16:03

like should you hear a pack of those bagels

1:16:05

and they go off and then you

1:16:07

look at your GPS and are starting to come back,

1:16:09

and you know, and then you they get louder as I come,

1:16:12

louder as I come. Not to get a smile

1:16:14

on your face. A lot of times,

1:16:16

little buggers. I don't call them many things cute

1:16:19

in this world, but those little buggers have just

1:16:21

a smidgeing of cuteness. And they're just coming through

1:16:23

their their tails. Because I asked Jason

1:16:25

about this, Why don't because they're all those tails

1:16:27

are bleeding. Oh yeah, And I thought, well,

1:16:29

man, just dock them, you know. He

1:16:31

said, oh no, I gotta see those tails

1:16:34

wagon. Oh yeah, Like

1:16:36

you have a dozen of those little dogs. They're

1:16:38

having the best tip. They have more fun than anybody you

1:16:40

have does, those little dogs. And they're just like little

1:16:43

like vacuums, man, and noise they make and they're

1:16:45

coming to and they all got blood coming off the end of their

1:16:47

tails and they are just fired up, having

1:16:49

the time of their life. And it's like nothing's

1:16:52

gonna escape their notice. Man, it's

1:16:54

just amazing to watch, if

1:16:57

you know, you know how Adam and we are to him

1:16:59

after we kill the rabbit, to show those

1:17:01

dogs that we've got the rabbit, because

1:17:03

some of them keep going. You know, they just that's

1:17:06

their heart. They just that's what they're made to do, is to run

1:17:08

a rabbit. And if you do not show some

1:17:10

of them right there, they keep on looking for that

1:17:12

that rabbit out there. That was another thing I enjoyed

1:17:15

quite a bit. As they'd run a

1:17:17

rabbit and like you said, the rabbits hundred yards

1:17:19

out ahead of the dogs. You

1:17:21

shoot the rabbit, go

1:17:24

over, pick the rabbit up, talk about the rabbit for couple

1:17:26

myths, and meanwhile the

1:17:29

whole time er er er er, and

1:17:31

eventually they run that rabbit

1:17:33

right up to where you're standing. And

1:17:35

then they're all like, hey, you got it, you know, and you show them

1:17:38

all the rabbit. What was interesting about

1:17:40

that is that, you know, speaking of like your scroll

1:17:42

dolls having that sighting ability, those

1:17:44

beagles they don't see

1:17:46

that dead rabbit until their nose touches

1:17:49

it. You

1:17:51

know, some of them, you just kind of got it. Yeah,

1:17:55

you know, they're they're so intent on that track

1:17:57

that scent on the ground. Are you just gotta really

1:18:00

get some of them, you know, and say hey there here, you

1:18:02

know, wagon, let it smack him in there

1:18:04

to get him to do it there. And then after they get

1:18:06

it, you know, we had a couple of them that are pretty

1:18:08

intent on getting hold of the dead

1:18:11

rabbit. You know. Sometimes some of them

1:18:13

they don't after they see it right there, they don't

1:18:15

care. They know it's dead there. But there's but we got two

1:18:17

or three in there that are you know, they're being there hanging

1:18:19

on. You gotta watch it or they're gonna be stripping all the hides

1:18:22

and stuff off the rabbit. You're interesting,

1:18:24

I noticed, is you gotta dogs,

1:18:28

but you bad to that when

1:18:30

you get a squirrel, butch

1:18:32

you bad. Till likes to eat the head right off the sir,

1:18:35

he'll eat it right off. I don't you know. It's

1:18:38

just something that that he does. That that he

1:18:40

knows that, you know, twenty two heads shot

1:18:42

there and and he eats it off and

1:18:44

usually nine times at then he stops

1:18:46

right there, you know, And that's that's all he wants,

1:18:49

is the heat does he want? He'll

1:18:51

may eat five or six of them out there. This

1:18:54

is incredible to me, just chomps the head

1:18:56

up, hiding everything, teeth

1:18:59

and all up, chop.

1:19:01

He was passed out. It doesn't even he doesn't even make like

1:19:03

a weird turn. He doesn't. What's

1:19:07

your what do you like? Eating the most out of squirrels and rabbits

1:19:10

and like swamp rabbit regular eastern

1:19:12

cotton tails for

1:19:16

personally squirrels. The

1:19:18

squirrel, uh is the

1:19:20

most mildest meat out there.

1:19:23

You know, they eat the nuts all the time and there,

1:19:25

and to me it

1:19:28

is the mildest taste of meat. And I think, like we've

1:19:30

had the conversation under I don't know

1:19:32

anybody that I haven't prepared

1:19:34

any for that didn't say, hey, this

1:19:36

was really really good meat. I

1:19:39

used to take it to we had church

1:19:41

potluck dinners take it.

1:19:44

They're people would would starrow the nose

1:19:46

finally kind of shame them

1:19:49

into not eating something, and after they ate it said hey,

1:19:51

this is really good. And then the next time we have

1:19:54

a meeting or pot luck or something, you didn't bring

1:19:56

it. So why didn't you fix any squirrel this morning? So

1:19:58

you know, I just didn't have time to do at

1:20:00

But I've converted a lot of people that thought

1:20:02

squirrel was just a

1:20:04

rodent or whatever out there that there was

1:20:06

not fifty two. It's a very good source

1:20:08

of protein. What are some of

1:20:10

your favorite way? If you had to rattle off, like a half

1:20:12

dozen favorite ways to fix squirrel, what would you say?

1:20:15

You know, the chicken fried, squirreld

1:20:17

baked squirrel in the oven is the easiest

1:20:20

way, you know, quartered

1:20:22

up, put it in a a cooking

1:20:25

pan. Put your favorite type

1:20:27

of season, whether it's tony satuaries,

1:20:30

lemon pepper. I made a whole bunch of lemon

1:20:32

pepper one time and put a put

1:20:34

a It was like when you know when these great

1:20:36

big aluminum pans to

1:20:39

to the a good old boy function there and

1:20:41

put lemon pepper over it with a few tabs

1:20:43

of butter in there, low and slow on the oven two

1:20:45

twenty five for about two to three.

1:20:48

IROs kind of depends on your oven. In the

1:20:50

in the mount of squirrel, you have the

1:20:52

meat just falls right off the bomb. I mean

1:20:54

you can just suck the meat right off the bone there. That

1:20:57

is the easiest way. Uh.

1:20:59

Squirreling dumplings, that's the

1:21:01

one. I just to clarify, though, no liquid

1:21:04

in that pan. No liquid, the

1:21:08

raw meat, put some butter in air covered with foil through

1:21:11

the oven. Three

1:21:14

I or there. Four

1:21:17

if you kill a bunch of two year old bucks, Yeah

1:21:19

yeah, maybe a little bit longer, a little bit less their easy,

1:21:22

easy, easy easy. My

1:21:24

favorite that you've made you made squirrel a bunch

1:21:26

of ways for us or the last few days is the dump

1:21:29

like the dumplings your mom made, well,

1:21:31

she does them in the squirrel broth. Ye, she'll

1:21:34

put up. I had taken

1:21:36

her several squirrels up there before

1:21:38

you guys came and asked her to make me some

1:21:40

some squirreling dumplings, which she favors

1:21:43

for there. She makes a broth with

1:21:45

the squirrel meat, takes the squirrels out, picks

1:21:48

the meat off the bones, then takes

1:21:50

the broth, makes her dumplings,

1:21:52

drops her dumplings into the bowling broth,

1:21:55

and that cooks. The cooks the dumplings,

1:21:57

the dumps the squirrel meat back in there, and

1:21:59

it's just like almost melts in your mouth.

1:22:02

No, it's ridiculous. You make

1:22:04

squirrel chowder. Squirrel chowder is is

1:22:06

another another very very good

1:22:09

uh recipe.

1:22:12

Um Kentucky

1:22:14

burgoo burg oo.

1:22:17

Another one of my favorites we didn't get to do

1:22:20

is a squirrel on a

1:22:22

open charcoal

1:22:25

uh, really like a cold

1:22:27

fire over over a grill,

1:22:30

and keep them basted. Make up a

1:22:33

a sauce of one gallon vinengor

1:22:36

um, a pound of lard,

1:22:39

uh, two sticks of butter, and a can

1:22:42

of like Texas pete or or glass

1:22:44

bottle Texas pete or or

1:22:46

whatever kind your uncle Frank's hot sauce. Frank's

1:22:48

hot sauce. Mix that up and keep those squirrels

1:22:50

basted in that. And and that's

1:22:53

yeah, to keep them basic, keep them from drying out.

1:22:56

It's a little bit takes a little bit. It's a little bit of time to

1:22:58

do that, but you know, you're setting out with your eyes

1:23:00

and it's a good good way. You

1:23:02

don't drink a beer or whatever. Sit out there and cook

1:23:04

that. And it's that is excellent. That

1:23:07

is really good. I've had good luck grilling squirrel

1:23:09

by take the squirrel

1:23:11

cutting five pieces. It's got four

1:23:13

legs the back. Now these are home squirrel,

1:23:16

So that do that away home squirrel,

1:23:18

the hole squirrel, keep them based down, big fox squirrel

1:23:20

comes out really good. That a way too, And

1:23:23

that's apple cider vinegar, not not white

1:23:25

bitter. You're cooking them only till they're done.

1:23:27

Yes, yeah, so it's done

1:23:30

them. You

1:23:33

can kind of stick a fork in them, and you know when it goes

1:23:35

penetrate, you know that they're they're done.

1:23:38

I've done, retake a bunch of garlic

1:23:41

in time leaves and

1:23:44

mashing the mortar and pestle, just pulp

1:23:46

it. They put salt in there and

1:23:48

then olive oil and some lemon stir

1:23:51

it up, and I marinade

1:23:53

the squirrel pieces there. But

1:23:55

I got ahead of myself before I do that.

1:23:58

I take the squirrel and put on the cutting board all

1:24:00

the pieces and take a meat fork, like a sharp

1:24:02

time fork, and poke

1:24:04

it a bunch of times all

1:24:06

over, so the marinade gets

1:24:09

in there better then a marinade

1:24:11

that eight hours or overnight. Then

1:24:14

I do them by my grill, just two done, not like

1:24:17

trying to slow. Was grill them on medium

1:24:19

heat, too done, and they just get where he

1:24:21

started a chart A little bit, just like if you're grilling chicken, like

1:24:23

a little bit of char on there is very

1:24:25

good, but you marinade

1:24:29

for the night. I

1:24:31

know a friend, uh, he had

1:24:33

an elderly gentleman that's friend of him. And

1:24:35

I don't know where the wrist bee comes from. But he used to like to

1:24:37

take a host squirrel, he said, and

1:24:41

keep the ribs on it, dress it out and

1:24:43

make a dressing and put it

1:24:45

into the cavity and then take a needle

1:24:47

and thread and sew it back up.

1:24:50

I need to go probably see him do that sometime.

1:24:52

But he just he just went wild over that. But he

1:24:54

made some kind of dressing stuff

1:24:57

squirrel and took a took you know, you know, I

1:24:59

took a needle, thread, sold

1:25:01

it up in that cavity there and baked him into heaven.

1:25:04

So that that sounds something that we probably

1:25:06

ought to try sometimes. Yeah, that's interesting. Many

1:25:08

have a nice visual appeal, Yeah,

1:25:12

including thoughts. If

1:25:14

you're not hunting squirrels, you are missing

1:25:17

out. Yeah, I think you're stupid. You're

1:25:19

stupid. If you don't

1:25:21

want squirrels, I think you're messed up in the

1:25:23

head. I mean, look not to nothing

1:25:26

against Wisconsin white til deer hunting,

1:25:28

but we took Helen and Brittany out there a couple of

1:25:30

weeks ago. They had a blast deer hunting. They

1:25:33

learned a lot but they're cooked on squirrel

1:25:35

two days of squirrel hunting. I mean they

1:25:37

wanted more and more and more and more

1:25:39

of it. Yeah, they loved it. It trained

1:25:41

you to be a good woodspin town. You

1:25:44

know. When I met you, you know what what I think one

1:25:46

of my my points of that said,

1:25:48

I said, you know, I said, you're

1:25:50

doing the outdoor shows out there, says you

1:25:52

know, not very many

1:25:54

kids can go out and go on al

1:25:57

khunt or something out west there if

1:26:00

you can go on deer count. But I said, just about every

1:26:02

kid can go out of his back door

1:26:05

and go squirrel hunting with a limited

1:26:07

amount of equipment. Yeah, for more months out

1:26:09

of the year than you can't, right, And and

1:26:11

that's probably one reason why I'm like a squirrel hunter, because

1:26:13

I can't hunt. You know, I hunt a little

1:26:15

bit when the leads around with my dollars, getting

1:26:17

them in shape, training them up. It's pretty difficult.

1:26:20

You might get one out of ten. But I'm out there

1:26:22

hunting. But then I've got December,

1:26:25

January. In February got

1:26:28

almost ninety days of squirrel hunting,

1:26:30

and most of the Midwest, well Montana, there's

1:26:32

you know, you hunt them. There's someplace you hut them

1:26:34

a year ound and most of the Midwest you

1:26:37

start hunting him in September. You can hunt him September,

1:26:39

October, November, December,

1:26:42

January, off in February. Some

1:26:45

states have an early season, and

1:26:47

then they opened the thing up for six months later

1:26:49

on. And then, like we said

1:26:51

yesterday, you can tie it into whatever. If

1:26:54

you're a big game hunter, uh, bear,

1:26:58

deer, whatever is out there, you can say, what's

1:27:00

going on with those guys? After? How many

1:27:02

buck scrapes we find? Man? I lost track

1:27:04

probably at thirty? How many scrapes

1:27:06

we found hunting squirrels? Did you see

1:27:08

some of those giant rubs that we saw today? We

1:27:13

found cops found

1:27:15

two turtle shells, found two

1:27:18

turtle shells, found, a drop,

1:27:20

anler found.

1:27:22

I don't know how many buck

1:27:24

scrapes we

1:27:27

can find, all guys junk on the woods, tracks

1:27:30

all over the place. What's your concluding

1:27:32

thought? Take

1:27:34

a kid squirlhead first, ganchi yet make

1:27:37

a hunter out having or her

1:27:40

or her that's great. And

1:27:42

we had a we had a young lady with us today got

1:27:44

her first swamp rabbit. Oh

1:27:46

yeah, so that was that was congratulations.

1:27:49

Cover all shot with

1:27:52

that pistol then really showed a shotgun. Uh.

1:27:55

You know another tidbit today when we was hunting, we

1:27:57

didn't get to see it, but the other guys did get to

1:28:00

say. It is that that a county

1:28:02

packed in with the with the bagel hands. We were

1:28:04

still don't know for sure if the

1:28:07

county was was chasing the dogs. They

1:28:09

said he was barking on track, or if he was

1:28:11

helping him chase the rabbit there. So

1:28:14

that would be another thing to be very interesting

1:28:16

thing to say when you're out in the woods. Oh,

1:28:20

speaking of Western gray squirrels, you guys got

1:28:22

your You guys got to California Hunt Eat

1:28:24

shirt coming out? Yes, how

1:28:27

long until now? It's gonna

1:28:29

be after the holidays. I would check

1:28:31

on the website. January

1:28:34

one skinny's out. Yeah, we at

1:28:36

Wisconsin, p

1:28:38

A, Pennsylvania. It will also

1:28:40

be out first of the year. The

1:28:43

skinny one's got one on it. It's

1:28:46

the UH. I don't want to it's not old.

1:28:48

I think it's the It might be actually the

1:28:51

retro UH state stamp,

1:28:53

the official state stamp that we converted

1:28:56

into a hunt to Eat T shirt, and California's

1:28:58

got wildhog on it. The

1:29:00

last doll sheep. Pa

1:29:03

has got a white tailed deer. Man.

1:29:06

You need to do Kentucky with a

1:29:08

small game theme, swamp

1:29:12

rabbit the squirrel. Well, I've got a small

1:29:14

game themed Sure it's

1:29:16

not stay affiliated in the works as

1:29:18

well. Good. My

1:29:21

concluding thought would

1:29:23

be, I

1:29:28

am so glad that when I

1:29:30

was young we had that we could hunt squirrels

1:29:32

right out of our house, because

1:29:36

it just learns you to, like teach

1:29:38

you how to go out in the woods and read sign yes,

1:29:42

and you get a lot of shooting, and

1:29:44

you just learn one

1:29:46

of your one of those old timers you had out there today.

1:29:49

You guys are talking, you're saying, like, go

1:29:52

sit in the woods, in the world will come to you.

1:29:55

That was that was one of the the

1:29:57

old timers that did lots and lots

1:29:59

of hunting. And that's one thing he told

1:30:02

me. He said, you just get out there and said

1:30:04

in the woods in the world will come to you. Be

1:30:06

patient. Another thing he said about the coyote

1:30:09

falling in with that pack of eagles, as

1:30:11

he says, you know, you go out in the field

1:30:13

long enough, it's amazing what you're gonna see. It's

1:30:16

not all about taking game, you

1:30:18

know. There's sometimes out there you just see things

1:30:21

that just amaze you. And

1:30:24

we've all seen that, and it

1:30:26

is just another ding dong sunrise.

1:30:28

Well, God, save

1:30:31

a chicken, eat a squirrel, alright,

1:30:33

anyone have any last thing to say Enjorge

1:30:36

our hunting, Yes, sir, it was a pleasure,

1:30:39

Kevin, thanks for having us, all right, signing

1:30:41

off,