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1:13

Eric Name, you recently wrote about

1:15

a scene that took place in Damien Lillard's house

1:18

in his man cave specifically.

1:20

Can you take us into the basement of the Lillard

1:23

home and tell us about the phone call

1:25

that the point guard got while he was down there?

1:29

Yeah, I mean, the entire

1:31

summer has been based on what

1:33

is Damien Lillard going to do? Where

1:35

is he going to play? And the drama

1:38

was he wanted to be in

1:40

Miami. You know, I was just

1:42

kind of sitting there in my man cave.

1:44

I didn't really know what was going to happen. I started to think

1:46

like, man, it might get to training

1:49

camp and I might just be sitting and waiting, you know? And

1:52

instead, when he got a call from his agent,

1:55

he found out that he was going to Milwaukee. And I

1:57

had heard so many different things

1:59

that I was like. You know, am

2:01

I really getting traded? And he was like, he had

2:04

received like prank phone calls

2:06

from other players in the NBA. OG Anadobi

2:09

in Toronto had texted him and said, oh, my God, I can't believe

2:11

you're coming to Toronto. And he had a check

2:13

with his agent and see if that was actually real. And

2:16

after we got off the phone, I sat there and I was like,

2:18

you know, I'm really I'm really moving on. And

2:21

from there, he had to try to figure out

2:24

what does that look like? Who is on the

2:26

team? Who did I get traded for? You

2:28

know, like who's going to be

2:29

there? And then I looked it up and, you know, I

2:32

saw what kind of team I was coming to be a part of.

2:34

And then that was when the excitement kicked in. Milwaukee

2:46

box became the favorite to win the

2:48

NBA title. The moment things swung the

2:50

block as your trade became inward. But

2:53

along with the excitement of that trade, Milwaukee

2:55

is also facing some

2:57

very big consequences. And

3:01

he responds to the loss of one of his most

3:04

popular players through holiday. Can

3:06

they talk the trends by

3:08

some recent Cooper team? And

3:11

after an unsettling summer, Kim

3:13

Lillard's arrival called concern to be

3:15

honest on how to come out on one

3:18

side. I'm

3:21

wondering if the ocean ski is

3:24

right. I see the TV and

3:26

this is really. So,

3:35

Eric, today we're going to look at the steps that

3:37

led the Bucks to make the bold move to go all

3:39

in on Damian Lillard and what

3:41

it means for the season as well as the future

3:44

of the face of the franchise. Giannis Antetokounmpo.

3:47

But first to set the stage, let's

3:50

go back to late 2020 when they landed

3:52

the point guard who preceded Lillard

3:54

through holiday. What were the expectations

3:57

in Milwaukee when holiday arrived?

3:59

It's funny to see.

3:59

think back all those years because

4:02

it was a very similar situation to what

4:04

they were going through during this off season with the honest

4:06

and the Kumbow. There is the, the drama

4:08

of whether or not he's going to stick around. There's the nervousness

4:11

of, is he going to stay and sign another

4:13

contract in Milwaukee? And during

4:16

that time in 2020, they had to go

4:18

out there and try to find a way to convince

4:20

them that this is a place that he could win a

4:22

championship.

4:24

The two

4:35

years under Mike Boonerlzer, they have been one of the better teams

4:37

in the league and putting up great numbers,

4:40

but just not able to get over the hump. And

4:43

this trade for drew holiday was done kind

4:45

of in a similar way to the Lillard deal here

4:47

in 2023. John horse went

4:50

out and found a way to get himself

4:52

a new point guard and he traded his old point guard

4:54

to do so. The pelicans are getting two veteran

4:56

players, Eric Bledsoe in George Hill,

4:59

nice players, but not drew holiday. The crown

5:01

jewel of the deal, three future

5:04

first round draft kicks. That is a massive

5:06

haul for drew holiday. The first

5:08

and with that, the expectations came that

5:11

this is the type of move you make one

5:13

to help convince Giannis to sign that supermax

5:16

extension in the same Milwaukee, but also to

5:18

show him that you're serious about way to the championship

5:20

and to hopefully get over that hump.

5:23

And ultimately that's exactly what the bucks did

5:25

in that very next season.

5:26

Exactly. The bucks went on to win the NBA

5:28

title, that first season with holiday

5:30

ending a 50 year

5:32

championship drought. So can you remind

5:35

us of the impact drew holiday had

5:36

on that title run? I mean, if you think

5:38

about the moments

5:40

that build that championship

5:42

run drew holiday is just

5:45

an unbelievable part of them. The

5:47

big moment where it really felt like the

5:49

Milwaukee bucks could win a championship was

5:52

game five in Phoenix. When Devin

5:54

Booker has the ball late in the game. It

6:02

is trying to figure out if the Bucks are going to

6:04

be able to get a defense and stop through how they rip

6:07

the ball away from him.

6:08

He

6:14

has

6:15

the option to just dribble it out in your

6:18

half court. That would have been safe. Take a free throws

6:20

and instead he throws an alley-oop up to

6:22

the 12 feet and there's the

6:24

honest out of Kumbow flying through the air and

6:26

helping the Bucks steal the victory to go up 3-2 in the series.

6:29

What a play by Drew Holiday. Gets

6:32

into the pitcher, comes up with the strip,

6:34

could have held it out, instead made the

6:36

right free, throws it up where only Yann

6:38

can catch it. And to me that

6:40

is the moment if you're a Bucks fan that it felt

6:43

real. That it felt like oh my gosh this 50

6:45

year drought might

6:48

actually end in this moment because of

6:50

this incredible play that Drew Holiday

6:52

made. The courage to throw

6:54

an alley-oop in that moment where many

6:57

players would have just dribbled out the clock

6:59

and Drew Holiday went for it and that

7:01

was kind of what he was probably going

7:03

to do. It's over.

7:05

The Milwaukee Bucks

7:07

are one win away from their first title

7:09

in 50 years as they win

7:11

on the road to take game

7:13

five. He's one of the best

7:15

defensive players in the league and if

7:17

you're looking at how they won that championship it's

7:20

impossible to think that they could have done it without Drew

7:22

Holiday.

7:25

While hearing Holiday talk at the Bucks championship

7:27

parade it sounded like Milwaukee

7:28

pretty quickly started to feel like home

7:30

for him. Milwaukee has been great to me man.

7:33

Me and my family. This organization

7:35

took us in as family and in one

7:37

year man look what we could do. Baby we could do it again

7:39

huh?

7:42

I know he had a reputation for being

7:44

very well liked in Milwaukee but from what you

7:47

could see while covering the team just

7:49

how well did Holiday fit in with teammates

7:52

and fans in Milwaukee and what was the dynamic

7:54

like between him and Giannis in particular?

7:56

Drew's an interesting dude. I always

7:59

describe him as a man. that

10:00

confidence, that ability to smile

10:02

and joke around. Like, he's just someone

10:05

that is incredibly genuine and does a great

10:07

job just connecting with people.

10:09

Well, since that 2021 championship,

10:11

which included, let's not forget that

10:13

incredible Giannis Chick-fil-A

10:14

drive-thru moment. Just 150,000

10:18

people watching you right now. Really? Yes.

10:21

So can I have, please, a

10:23

50-piece Mac Mini, 50 exactly.

10:27

50 exactly. Okay. Not 51, none, 49. The

10:31

Bucs have not managed to make it past

10:33

the second round of the playoffs. So broadly

10:36

speaking, Eric, what's gone wrong for them in

10:38

the playoffs the last couple of years?

10:40

I think if you ask the Bucs, they'll say injuries. Chris

10:42

Middleton got hurt two postseasons ago.

10:45

Right, the road for the Bucs to repeat

10:47

just hit a snag. Chris Middleton sprained

10:49

his MCL in the last game, a

10:52

playoff against Chicago,

10:54

and will have to...

10:54

This past year... Giannis played

10:57

two and a half of the five games that they played

10:59

against the Miami Heat.

11:00

...and the teams are just right down

11:03

and waves

11:03

in the wall. And

11:06

Giannis is down. And Giannis,

11:08

maybe holding their back. He is. He's

11:11

injured. I think if you ask Giannis, if he has anyone around

11:13

the Bucs, they're pretty confident that it would have

11:15

been their run to make if Giannis is healthy.

11:17

So I think it starts there. And then

11:20

as you start to take a closer look at what

11:22

has gone wrong for the team over the years, Mike

11:24

Booner was the head coach for the last five years. And

11:27

he focused on always having a great defense and

11:30

then doing the right things offensively,

11:33

spacing the floor around Giannis and trying

11:35

to make sure that they were shooting

11:37

a lot of threes and doing things like that. But in the playoffs,

11:39

their offense tended to slow down. The whole idea

11:42

of stopping Giannis is building a wall, sacrificing

11:45

your body, and taking some hits because he is

11:47

such a physically imposing force that

11:49

you have to be willing to do it. And when

11:51

teams did that, the Bucs' offense just

11:54

ground to a halt. It would not work in the

11:56

same ways. And they just wouldn't have enough

11:58

points to win games.

11:59

since the Bucks playoff loss to the Miami Heat

12:02

this spring, which you mentioned, it's been a

12:04

somewhat unsettling summer for Bucks

12:06

fans. Walk us through some of

12:08

the comments that Yanis made in the aftermath

12:10

of their early playoff exit and how

12:12

you interpreted those comments.

12:14

Yeah, I mean, Yanis did a

12:17

couple different interviews, one with, you

12:19

know, his former friend from the team, Ross Geiger,

12:21

who is one of the like video room guys,

12:23

equipment trainers on a podcast. He

12:25

also did an interview at the New York Times with

12:28

Tanya Ganguly. And essentially

12:30

the idea was I am a Milwaukee

12:32

Buck. I would like to remain a Milwaukee

12:35

Buck for life, but I need

12:37

everyone in the organization as committed

12:39

to winning as I am. At the end

12:41

of the day, I am a winner.

12:44

I want to be a winner. contracts,

12:48

faith status, a comfort

12:51

zone does not matter

12:53

to me. I need people to sacrifice

12:55

in the ways that I do and commit

12:58

all of their energy to

13:00

being a championship team and

13:02

win another ring. I don't want to be

13:04

talking about the one ring that

13:06

I won in my entire career. I

13:09

don't want to be able to get stuck

13:13

in this lifestyle to keep on talking

13:15

about the same story. Although we

13:17

went to game six and the NBA Finals we

13:19

won, we were down to, I'm

13:21

tired of sharing the same story

13:24

over and over again. I feel like they would

13:26

get. But he always tended to leave one

13:28

thing unsaid. The obvious

13:31

thing that comes from not being

13:33

happy with the situation is leaving.

13:36

And Yanis typically didn't mention

13:38

that part. This time around, you know, when

13:40

he started in the New York Times, it was, I want

13:42

to stay here. I'd like to keep winning.

13:45

But if I don't, then I might have to leave Milwaukee.

13:47

This was the first time in an

13:50

interview that Yanis have kind of gone

13:52

out of his way to say the unsaid

13:54

part. And that is something that was incredibly

13:57

unsettling for box fans.

15:49

I

16:00

can't wait to see if you follow the book.

16:02

Whoo! And

16:05

this past year, instead of going

16:07

for Drew Holiday, Giannis decided

16:09

to go with Damian Lillard. My first

16:11

speech is gonna be Damian Lillard.

16:14

Whoo!

16:17

As you said, it made LeBron James chuckle

16:19

a little bit as he was trying to figure out, you know, why

16:22

Giannis would betray

16:24

his own teammates in such a way. Giannis

16:27

has changed this weekend. You know, he always

16:29

talk about loyalty. So I knew

16:31

for sure his first pitch was

16:34

gonna be Drew. So I don't know what's going

16:36

on with Giannis. Okay, okay.

16:38

He messed my whole draft board up now. I'm

16:41

curious who he is. In reality,

16:44

if you talk with Giannis, he'll say, well, I knew he wasn't

16:46

gonna take Drew, so I was just being a smart GM because

16:48

I have been a GM of an All-Star team for

16:50

so many times that, you know, I'm starting to figure

16:52

this out. But, you know, as you think

16:55

through it, it's like, okay, well, you

16:57

could have picked anyone. You picked Damian Lillard.

16:59

And, you know, what were you trying to say? And Giannis

17:01

will, of course, deny that, but there's

17:03

definitely some eyebrows raised when it occurred.

17:06

Okay, so between this not so subtle

17:08

hint that Giannis is a big fan of Damian

17:10

Lillard and his comments about being frustrated

17:13

and wanting to win more championships in Milwaukee,

17:15

is it fair to draw a direct

17:18

line between what Giannis was saying

17:20

over the summer and the Bucks decision to trade

17:22

for Lillard?

17:23

I think it's impossible to pull them

17:25

apart. When we years

17:28

down the line think about this

17:31

trade and maybe it leads to a championship,

17:33

maybe it doesn't. I don't know. But either way, it

17:35

will be impossible to pull it

17:37

apart from Giannis's statements during

17:40

the Aussies. That's just going to be the

17:42

reality of the situation. And when

17:44

you talk to Giannis about kind of where he is

17:46

at with his trade, how he thinks about it,

17:48

like he truly loved the Andrew

17:50

Holliday's teammate. His energy was contagious.

17:54

Like he was always positive, always happy.

17:56

Whenever you came around him, you

17:58

always felt good. He was a guy

18:01

that you always felt great

18:03

to go to war with. And

18:06

every time that he got asked about it in the

18:08

first couple of weeks after the trade, it was

18:10

always, you know, I miss my guy, Drew. I'm

18:12

so sad to see him go, but I'm

18:15

excited to go play with Damian Lilley. We

18:17

are just the same people, just different size.

18:21

He plays with a chip on his shoulder. He

18:23

plays to win, you know, one of the best

18:25

point guards in the league. Probably, if not

18:28

top one, top two shooters

18:30

in the league. For as good as Drew Halliday is,

18:32

and I think he's a spectacular player, he

18:35

didn't make the All-NBA 75 team. He

18:37

doesn't have seven All-Star appearances.

18:39

He doesn't have seven All-NBA appearances like

18:41

Damian Lilley. Like, he isn't a 30 point per

18:43

game score every night. There's just something

18:45

different about Damian Lilley and kind

18:47

of what he's able to bring to the team that Yonah simply

18:50

hasn't had before. Definitely, I feel like the team have showed,

18:52

like, they showed that they're committed to winning

18:54

championships. So, I'm hungry.

18:58

Coming up. So, the Bucks are adjusting

19:00

to a major change at point guard. And

19:03

can this pairing of superstars avoid

19:05

the pitfalls that have doomed other superteams?

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20:58

So, Eric, over the last few seasons, we've seen a

21:01

number of superstar heavy teams not

21:03

get it done in the playoffs. There was Kevin

21:05

Durant, Kyrie Irving, James Harden disaster

21:07

in Brooklyn, and the Lakers attempt

21:10

to team up an aging Russell Westbrook with

21:12

LeBron James and Anthony Davis, just to

21:14

name a couple. And I think there are a lot

21:16

of questions about how Dame and Giannis will play together

21:19

along with Chris Middleton as a potential

21:21

third star. So what have you seen

21:23

from Dame and Giannis during preseason so far?

21:26

And what have they said about playing together?

21:27

It's been interesting because they've

21:30

all said the right things. You know, when you talk

21:32

about those other superstar pairings, you're

21:35

looking at two guys on the wing

21:37

that both might want the basketball

21:39

or two big shots, but maybe

21:42

he's not the right point card. This

21:44

one, if you're talking about the complementary

21:46

skills that they have, it's difficult to

21:49

find a more perfect pairing for

21:51

Giannis than Damian Lillard. And I guess

21:54

conversely for Damian Lillard, then Giannis,

21:56

you know, when the trade first broke and I first wrote

21:58

about it, I tried. the compared

22:00

to gravitational forces dad

22:02

in the league you have certain players

22:04

that are going to get all the attention of defenses

22:07

and what's interesting about janice

22:09

dame is that people in opposite

22:12

directions would you have the him in lower to

22:14

them pull up from thirty feet you have

22:16

to guard him all the way out the half court in

22:19

the entire thought process behind sobbing

22:21

down and as for the last five years of his creates

22:23

is banned build a wall a

22:25

strong as you tend five feet

22:28

in front of the room and the now

22:30

when you put those forza del there you have gravitational

22:32

forces polling in the exact

22:34

opposite direction and then i think

22:36

as you saw them make their debut the swedes

22:39

you talk to yannis after the lakers games

22:42

and the very first question i asked

22:44

him was about the first pick and roll they ran with a

22:46

me another is the fifth possession of the game and

22:48

he looked him he said of vivid as

22:50

observed in this is much opens

22:53

the last five

22:55

to seven yes

22:58

fundamental well all you have no

23:00

been does open aired almost was like

23:02

is looking around trying to figure out is that he

23:04

will cover me inevitably

23:06

can only were denied aimed those in

23:09

a when you get the bone to pick another a blue team

23:11

and i was rolling and i was just wide

23:13

open ear to cover him like that what you gotta

23:15

cover me like that and air was kind

23:17

of incredible to see those to experience

23:20

it for the first time because as i had

23:23

my one alone conversation with them in other to memphis

23:25

earlier in the we'd seen said there's

23:27

a lotta times where's something habits in

23:29

practice and i couldn't figure

23:32

out if that happened because

23:34

it's just practice or if

23:36

that's what's gonna look like in the game and

23:38

the the overwhelming review after two games

23:41

as that's what it's gonna be like in the game

23:43

as well so you know we come out

23:45

first played a game for a couple plays in a blitz

23:47

me noted for i mean the

23:50

guided i'm release in a bar to is

23:52

john says so i'm just like us

23:56

or we didn't do it is a nice dinner me

23:59

in the biggest thing

25:25

ways

26:00

I can talk to them because you don't

26:02

know me quite yet. First, this school, you

26:04

see somebody. Y'all might be cool that day, but over

26:06

time, you really get to know each other. You get to know

26:08

who they really are as a person when something doesn't

26:11

go their way, when they have a success. And

26:13

I think it's a pretty mature approach.

26:16

Like it's not something where he's going to come in and demand

26:19

what he needs. Because I think he knows that

26:21

Giannis can handle that, right? Like Giannis

26:23

has been here for a decade. He knows who

26:26

to talk to, how to talk to them and lead this team.

26:28

But his youngest has told us, his Chris Milton

26:31

has told us, his Brook Lopez has told

26:33

us they keep telling

26:35

Dame, we need Dame to be Dame.

26:37

But at the end of the day, I know that we're both willing to

26:40

kind of be ourselves and

26:43

kind of let the other guy be himself.

26:45

Because I need Dame to be Dame, you

26:47

know? And I think he needs me to be me. And

26:50

the overwhelming messages, we got

26:52

to live together for a little bit before we can actually

26:55

figure these things out. It can't just be overnight

26:57

that all of a sudden team is in

26:59

charge, leading the team, leading huddles.

27:01

It's going to be small things at first. And

27:04

then they're going to go through some stuff. They'll

27:06

probably be some bad times. And

27:08

I don't know that they're hoping to lose a lot of games. I

27:10

don't think they're hoping for bad things to happen, but

27:13

I do think they understand that for

27:15

you to grow that connection in

27:17

the same way that they had it with true holiday,

27:19

they're going to have to live through some stuff together.

27:21

No one aspect of this that we haven't talked

27:24

about yet is that the Bucks also have a rookie

27:26

head coach in Adrian Griffin. He's obviously

27:28

stepping into a lot of pressure, but

27:31

from what you've seen, does he look

27:33

like the right guy to lead this team?

27:35

To me, it's always interesting in the

27:37

NBA with first time head coaches, because

27:40

we've seen a lot of first time head coaches have

27:42

a lot of success. You know, you look

27:44

around the league and you see guys

27:47

like in the Udoka who led the Celtics

27:49

to an NBA finalist. You see Nick nurse who won

27:51

one in his first season in

27:54

Toronto with, by the way, Adrian Griffin

27:56

as an assistant coach in Toronto. So we've

27:59

seen first head coaches have that

28:01

success. And I think one thing

28:03

that we've heard from Adrian consistently

28:05

from getting the job is not necessarily

28:08

that it's pressure, it's that

28:10

it's an opportunity. Adrian

28:11

We're

28:26

not gonna take anything for granted. And we're

28:29

gearing up for April, May,

28:31

and June. He's said many times that the foundation is incredibly

28:33

strong in Milwaukee and he needs to

28:36

lean into that while also putting his

28:38

own spit on some things. And I think it's been a

28:41

really mature approach because I do think there's

28:43

a lot of ego in sports, whether you're coach,

28:47

whether you're player, the best golf buddy, the most

28:50

dome bet for a company is ego

28:53

in sports, whether you're a coach, whether you're

28:55

a player, and you will think, I

28:58

know the answers in one anecdote

29:00

that Adrian Griffin is sharing with us many times

29:03

is, you know, he's as a player, he was

29:05

on a team coach by Avery Johnson and David Johnson

29:07

came into the huddle and said, I don't have

29:10

all the answers. I'm looking for them

29:12

and we're going to find them together. And that's

29:14

one of the approaches Adrian has taken

29:17

here in Milwaukee where he's going to lead on

29:19

these guys that have been in championship

29:21

situations that have championship brings. He's

29:23

going to bring in his old ideas and he's going to see

29:25

how it goes. And I mean, I think when

29:27

you look at what happened in Toronto, you

29:29

know, he led a very aggressive and interesting

29:32

defense for five years. I think there's some things

29:34

that the bucks weren't doing that he can bring in there.

29:36

And I think there's some things that the bucks were doing that

29:39

he can use from the old version of the

29:41

Milwaukee bucks. So when you blend those things together,

29:43

I think you're hopeful ultimately that you

29:46

have a coach that is cool and calm and

29:49

has a better tactical sense

29:51

and can help make all of those

29:53

changes. But it's the first time that

29:55

coach I've now watched him coach

29:57

for NBA preseason games. That's all I got.

30:00

And I think that's what all anyone else has

30:02

is you have to lean into his personality. You have

30:04

to lean into the belief that he has in the players

30:06

that in himself and then see where things go.

30:09

Now, on the other side of things we talked about

30:11

through holidays popularity earlier, what

30:13

did people around the team have to say about holidays

30:16

exit and what did he have to say

30:18

about

30:18

it? For what he had to say about

30:20

it, I think nothing probably

30:23

speaks better than the Instagram post

30:25

that his wife Lauren holiday made. You look

30:27

at Lauren multiple time

30:29

Olympian, amazing us women's

30:31

national team, soccer player. She made

30:34

a four screenshot post

30:36

on Instagram. I think it would be the best way

30:38

to describe it talking about how difficult

30:40

it is to get traded, how much they love the city of Milwaukee

30:43

and you know how difficult it can be to uproot

30:46

your entire life. This late in

30:48

kind of the proceedings, typically MEA trades

30:50

happen in June, July before

30:53

the kids start school in the

30:55

holidays, how to pick everything up. So, you

30:57

know, I think from holidays perspective, it

31:00

was shocked. There's been a whirlwind.

31:02

Just my family

31:05

was established there and we had a school

31:07

and things like that.

31:09

We had friends, but I think his teammates reacted

31:12

similarly. I think it started a lot.

31:14

This might be a little bit dramatic,

31:16

but with heartbreak, like everything that

31:19

drew did share on the team three years, it's

31:21

never going to be replaced no matter what happens,

31:24

no matter who comes, it's never going

31:26

to be replaced. It's always going to be a champion forever. It's always

31:28

going to be one of my best friends, one of the best teammates,

31:30

the best human being I've ever met and

31:32

ever played with. I mean,

31:34

the honest met a lot of people in his life that

31:37

saying something and hit again, you

31:39

know, maybe just got caught up in the moment or whatever might

31:41

be, but that is how highly

31:44

Giannis views through

31:47

a holiday and what he meant to that team in

31:49

their friendship. And I think one

31:51

thing that's kind of happened over the years here

31:53

in Milwaukee is this an organization

31:55

that has never had an easy job

31:58

bringing free agents in.

33:19

incredible.

34:01

And yeah, as we've seen over the years, sometimes

34:03

you get in the playoffs and things go poorly.

34:05

Shots don't fall, injuries happen, whatever

34:07

may be. And there's a real chance that

34:10

at the end of the season, the Celtics could

34:12

beat the Bucks. I think the Bucks believe that they are

34:15

better than the Celtics and they are

34:17

going to be the ones that win the championship. But the Celtics

34:19

feel the same way about the Bucks. And

34:21

I mean, it would be a beautiful,

34:24

beautiful story if we all get that. But

34:26

I guess we'll have to wait six months to find out. Yeah,

34:28

for sure. Well, thank you so much, Eric, for breaking

34:31

this all down. It'll be definitely very exciting

34:33

to see what happens. Absolutely. Thanks for having

34:35

me.

34:37

You can find a link to more of Eric's named

34:39

coverage of the Bucks in our show notes and

34:42

at theathletics.com. Thanks

34:44

for listening this week. This episode

34:46

was produced by Matt Stroup and edited

34:48

by Anders Kelto. Audio editing

34:50

by Adrian Tapia. Hand design

34:53

and mixing by Joe Richardson. Mass

34:55

checking by Ian Hurley. The

34:58

rest of our team includes Aaron May, Daniel

35:00

Gonzalez and Matt Beagle. Our

35:02

executive producer is Anders Kelto. The

35:05

lead is executive produced by Dave Easton,

35:08

Marshall Louis and Jen Sargent

35:09

for Wondery. From Wondery,

35:11

I'm Tiffany Oshinsky. We'll talk to you

35:13

next week.

35:18

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35:23

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35:44

Kara Packenac woke up to the sound of

35:46

a door slamming in the early hours of

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as she reached the bottom step. She

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