0:07

Hey , leader , and welcome to another episode of the L3

0:10

Leadership Podcast , where we are obsessed with

0:12

helping you grow to your maximum potential and

0:14

to maximize the impact of your leadership

0:16

. My name is Doug Smith and I am your host

0:18

, and today's episode is brought to you by my friends

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and Beratung advisors . We also

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recorded this live from the new Birgo Realty

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Studio . If you're new to the podcast

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listen to podcasts through , that really does help us

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thank you in advance for that . While

0:51

, leader , in today's episode you're going to hear my conversation with

0:53

the one and only Mark Miller . He is returning to

0:55

the podcast for the third time and if

0:57

you are unfamiliar with Mark , let me just tell you a little

0:59

bit about him . Mark started over 40

1:01

years ago working as an hourly employee at a local

1:04

Chick-fil-A and he has worked all across the business

1:06

since then and recently just retired

1:08

as the vice president of high performance leadership

1:10

at Chick-fil-A . And for the last 20 years

1:13

he's also traveled the United States and the world

1:15

, focusing much of his time on serving

1:17

leaders , helping them grow themselves , their teams and

1:19

their organizations . In this episode

1:21

, we talk all about his new book that's coming out

1:23

, called Uncommon Greatness Five

1:26

Fundamentals to Transform your Leadership

1:28

. And again , if you've never heard Mark or even if you have , he

1:31

had so much value in this conversation you're going to love

1:33

it . Before we dive in , just a few announcements

1:35

. This episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast

1:37

is sponsored by Beratung Advisors . The

1:39

financial advisors at Beratung Advisors help

1:41

educate and empower clients to make informed

1:44

financial decisions . You can find out

1:46

how Beratung Advisors can help you develop a

1:48

customized financial plan for your financial future

1:50

by visiting their website at BeratungAdvisorscom

1:53

that's B-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisorscom

1:58

. Securities and investment products

2:00

and services offered through LPL Financial

2:02

. Member of FINRA and SIPC , Beratung

2:04

Advisors , LPL Financial and L3 Leadership

2:06

are separate entities . I

2:08

also want to thank our sponsor , Henne Jewelers . They're a jewelry

2:11

earned by my friend and mentor , John Henne , and

2:13

my wife Laura and I got our engagement and wedding rings

2:15

through Henne Jewelers and had an incredible experience

2:17

. And not only do they have great jewelry

2:19

, but they also invest in people . In fact , for every

2:21

couple that comes in engaged , they give them a book to

2:23

help them prepare for marriage , and we just love that . So

2:26

if you're in need of a good jeweler , check out HenneJewelers . com

2:29

. And with all that being said , let's dive right in

2:31

. Here's my conversation with Mark Miller . Mark

2:36

Miller , welcome back for the third time to

2:38

the L3 Leadership Podcast . We were just

2:40

joking . At this pace of you writing

2:42

books , you'll be on every three months . It'll be beautiful

2:44

. You add so much value to our audience every

2:46

time that you're on . So thanks again for joining us .

2:48

Well , it's my pleasure , my pleasure

2:51

.

2:51

Yeah , and I want to dive into the book , but before we do

2:53

. We were just talking , you know , catching up , and you

2:55

mentioned that you just attended your first

2:57

rodeo ever . What was that

2:59

like this weekend ?

3:00

It was fantastic . I was in Fort

3:03

Worth and

3:05

again , you know you always say well , this is not my first

3:07

rodeo , well , I was looking for a t-shirt that said

3:09

this is my first rodeo , but

3:12

those men and women were amazing . I

3:15

mean , I'd seen snippets of it here and there on TV

3:18

, but it was , it was . It was really

3:20

cool being there in person ?

3:22

Did you watch Yellowstone Like what made you go

3:24

to a rodeo ?

3:25

Well , I've always wanted to go to one and

3:27

we were visiting some friends

3:29

and family out there and they

3:32

knew I'd never been , and it was the semifinal

3:35

weekend for the 137th

3:38

edition , I think , of the Fort

3:40

Worth , what they call it

3:43

. There was a show and

3:45

rodeo livestock show

3:47

. So , yeah , we got . We got the full experience

3:49

. I got to get through a rodeo .

3:52

Well , I want to dive into the book . The new book

3:54

is called uncommon greatness five fundamentals

3:56

that transform your leadership , and

3:58

you've been adding value to leaders for so long in

4:00

so many different ways . Why this book ? Why

4:02

now ? And what do you want leaders to ?

4:04

get out of it . Okay , there's a lot in that first question . So

4:07

, as I , as I have shared with you on

4:09

previous episodes

4:12

, we've always tried to look three to

4:14

five years into the future in

4:17

almost every project we've worked

4:19

on for the last 25 years to identify

4:21

the emerging needs that

4:24

leaders might be facing . And

4:26

you know we look for those weak signals . And we've

4:28

done work on leadership effectiveness because we saw

4:30

leaders struggling . We've worked on culture because

4:32

we said we're hearing more and more about culture

4:35

, on and on and on . We've done

4:37

that many , many times . This one is just a little

4:39

bit different because this was

4:41

a request from Chick-fil-A . Some of your listeners

4:43

know I spent almost 45 years

4:45

working for Chick-fil-A and

4:48

Chick-fil-A came to me , I think probably

4:50

for several reasons One , realizing that I

4:52

was at some point going to retire , and

4:55

they said , hey , we've got a problem We'd like you

4:57

to help us solve . And I said , well , okay

4:59

, what ? You know what's on your mind . And

5:02

they said something some of your

5:04

leaders might know , that Ken

5:06

Blanchard and I did a book 25 years

5:08

ago called the Secret . It was actually my first writing

5:11

project . It was at his insistence

5:13

that we do that and it was . It was amazing

5:16

. But we decided back

5:18

then that our paradigm

5:20

of leadership resembled an iceberg

5:23

, that about 10%

5:25

is above the waterline and about 90%

5:27

is below , and the 10%

5:30

above represents the skills and

5:32

the 90% below represents your

5:34

heart and your character as a leader . Well

5:37

, we decided that very first book was

5:39

about the skills , because we felt like that

5:42

was a pressing need in the world

5:44

to outline some of those things , those

5:46

competencies that every leader needed

5:48

. And it wasn't just

5:51

a few years later , the

5:53

outcry was for us

5:55

to do something on the below

5:57

the waterline . Well , ken had

5:59

too many other things going on , so I did

6:01

that by myself , and it was

6:03

a book called the Heart of Leadership . So

6:05

back to the problem that Chick-fil-A identified

6:07

. They said our point of

6:10

view on leadership is now contained

6:12

in two books . And

6:14

they said what we've realized is we have some

6:16

of our people in the organization who have

6:18

read one book or the other

6:21

and therefore they have a truncated

6:24

view of our point

6:26

of view . And they said can you put

6:28

it together in one book ? And

6:30

so this was an opportunity to

6:32

A do a traditional book . Those were parables

6:35

. So we wanted a traditional book

6:37

and combine

6:40

those two models into

6:43

one approachable paradigm

6:46

that leaders could put into action

6:48

today . So that's a little different

6:50

backstory than all the other books , but that's how we

6:52

got here .

6:54

Yeah , I'm excited that I've been . One thing that I did see when

6:56

I looked through the book , though you mentioned Ken Blanchard

6:58

. You dedicated the book to him . You talked

7:00

about how he changed your life through co-authoring

7:02

the Secret With you , and just

7:04

when you get to spend time being mentored with someone like that

7:06

, I'm just curious what is the impact that he's

7:08

had on your life , so much so that you dedicated this book to

7:10

him ?

7:11

Well , I had never

7:14

had aspirations to write . In

7:16

fact , I may have told this story on a previous

7:18

episode as well . We had done some work

7:20

at Chick-fil-A about how to accelerate

7:22

leadership development and we had what

7:24

I call a crisis of confidence . We

7:26

weren't quite sure we had it right . I mean , we

7:28

were in the chicken business and this was our first foray

7:31

into trying to articulate

7:33

, document a point of view that we would potentially

7:35

teach for generations . And goodness , we've

7:38

now been teaching it at Chick-fil-A for a quarter

7:40

century , and

7:42

so we didn't know that we had it right

7:44

and I was gonna be with Ken the next

7:46

day . You can decide if that was a divine appointment

7:48

or a coincidence , but I said hey , I'm gonna

7:50

be with Ken Blanchard tomorrow . He was a friend of mine

7:53

and I said let me , do

7:55

you want me ? I asked the team that had

7:57

been working on this for a couple of years . At that point I

8:00

said do you want me to share this with Ken ? And they said , sure

8:02

, please . Yeah , that'd be fantastic . So I

8:04

said , hey , ken , we've been working on how to accelerate

8:07

leadership development and I basically showed

8:09

him the serve model five bullet points

8:11

on a single sheet of paper and the first

8:13

thing out of his mouth was this has gotta

8:16

be a book . Well , I blew

8:18

him off and I said , ken , everything looks like

8:20

a book to you , which is why he's probably sold 70

8:22

million books . And he

8:24

said no , no , no , no . He said you don't understand . He said

8:26

you were trying to articulate what

8:29

Chick-fil-A believes about

8:31

leadership and he said what you've done is

8:33

you have articulated what has been true

8:35

about leadership forever . And

8:38

he said it's gotta be a book . So he

8:40

is that quintessential

8:42

leader who believed in me before I

8:44

believed in myself . And he said let's

8:47

do a book . And he persisted

8:49

there's a lot of backstory there , but

8:51

he and I ultimately did that first

8:53

book and it was published about 20

8:56

years ago .

8:57

Wow , and so really , one of

8:59

the first fundamental in the book is seeing

9:01

the future . It's all about having a vision and

9:04

I love how this ties in so technically

9:06

you can say with Elkens' vision of what your work

9:08

could be released in the world . We wouldn't

9:10

have all the great Mark Miller books that

9:12

we have in print today and

9:15

he could see the unseen

9:17

for sure and

9:19

talk more about what that means as leaders . The other thing

9:21

that inspired me when I was reading through the See the Vision chapter

9:23

is you were challenged , I believe

9:25

, by the leaders of Chick-fil-A , to go out

9:27

and reach 100 million leaders . Is that correct

9:29

? Like , what is the power of a vision

9:32

due for someone ?

9:33

Okay , Well , it's interesting , Let me . Yes

9:35

, and you and I've talked about this

9:37

before and you are absolutely correct

9:39

. The former CEO

9:42

challenged me to try to figure out how to reach

9:44

10 million leaders , and that was years and years

9:46

ago , you are correct . And then

9:48

, now that I have transitioned

9:51

out of the chicken , I've entered my second

9:53

half , people said well , what are you gonna do ? I

9:55

said we're gonna find a way to reach 100 million

9:57

leaders and I think , with technology

9:59

, I think that's a reasonable

10:02

goal . So , yes , that

10:04

was another case where we were trying to

10:06

serve predominantly the Chick-fil-A

10:08

leaders . We were publishing our work

10:11

, but we didn't really have aspirations that

10:13

were on that scale . And

10:16

it was that senior leader that said hey , what

10:18

if you found a way to serve 10

10:21

million leaders a year ? And

10:23

I went back and shared that with the team and

10:25

they said you know , that is possible . Now , this was

10:27

obviously a few years back and I

10:29

said okay , how is that possible ? And they

10:31

said have you heard of something called the internet

10:33

? That's actually

10:36

when I first started blogging , so

10:38

I wrote over four

10:40

years . I wrote over 600 blog posts

10:42

. I was doing three a week in order

10:44

to begin building a platform

10:46

and serving global leaders , and

10:49

so that's how we took that next

10:51

step was somebody who could see something

10:53

I couldn't see .

10:55

Well , that's so good and you're really illustrating the power of

10:57

actually being able to see the future , and sometimes we

10:59

need people in our lives that see a bigger future for our lives

11:01

than we do , and thank God for that

11:03

. But why did you , why is this so

11:05

important and you included as a fundamental in the book for leaders

11:07

to get really clear on providing

11:09

a clear vision of the future .

11:11

Yeah , leadership always begins

11:13

with a picture of the future . Always

11:16

, if you're not pursuing something

11:18

, you're not leading . Now I'm not

11:20

throwing rocks , I'm not trying

11:22

to talk bad about you , but if you're not pursuing

11:25

anything , you're managing at

11:27

best , which is management is about today

11:30

, leadership is about the future , and

11:32

you may not even be managing well if

11:34

you don't have any preconceived notion about what

11:36

you're trying to accomplish and what you're trying

11:38

to achieve and who you're trying

11:40

to become . And so people

11:43

have asked me for 25 years is

11:45

this the most important of the fundamentals

11:47

? And I would argue well , they're all fundamental , but

11:50

it's the first among equals , because

11:52

if you're not trying to accomplish anything , then you don't even

11:54

need the other fundamentals .

11:57

Yeah , so what can leaders do ? One

11:59

even just to take time ? Like you said , management's about

12:01

today , but even as leaders who are

12:03

visionary , it's so easy to get focused and boggle

12:05

down by the day to day that we really don't

12:07

time , don't take time to actually see a clear picture

12:10

of the future . What advice do you have for leaders on

12:12

just taking time to see the future ?

12:14

Yeah , Well , let me let me quickly add I don't

12:16

want to paint that and I did , let me , let me

12:18

let me reel that back in just half a step . I

12:20

don't want to make it make this too simplistic

12:23

. The best leaders are Are constantly

12:26

in a heads up , heads down , heads

12:28

up , heads down , because today does matter , but

12:30

they don't become encumbered by today

12:32

, right , they don't let the future

12:34

be jeopardized by today

12:36

. So , ken and I actually wrote about

12:39

that a long , long time ago that there is this tension

12:41

heads up , heads down . Just , far too

12:43

many leaders aren't spending enough time

12:45

heads up , they're not looking toward

12:47

the future , and I would argue that if you don't

12:50

spend enough time thinking about the future , there

12:52

may not be one for you or for

12:54

your organization . And so

12:56

if I'm giving somebody an advice

12:58

, some advice , I would say they need

13:00

to be carving out some time to

13:03

think about the future . Because

13:06

this , this fundamental , is really

13:08

about weaving those threads of what you

13:10

know to be true with what you know

13:12

needs to be true , and and

13:14

painting a compelling picture that you can rally

13:17

others to join you , because

13:19

you can't do it by yourself . By the way , if you can

13:21

do it by yourself , it's not much . I

13:23

always tell leaders I hope you're trying to do something

13:25

that's going to require you , plus others

13:28

, hmm , and this first fundamental

13:30

gives you something To

13:33

share with others , a vision

13:35

to cast .

13:37

Yeah , and so if you actually take the time to put

13:39

your head up and get the vision , then there's

13:41

the challenge of how do you actually cast that in

13:43

a compelling enough way and consistently enough throughout

13:46

the organization I think about I don't know so

13:48

many employees you had at Chick-fil-A

13:50

, but when true it , or someone at the top has this

13:52

vision , what are some keys for leaders to

13:54

actually cast , kade that vision down

13:56

to where it's reaching the ? The guy

13:58

at the Chick-fil-A counter saying my pleasure .

14:01

All right . So this is a great opportunity

14:03

for me to offer my standard disclaimer . I

14:05

would encourage your audience not to

14:07

misinterpret the brevity of my

14:09

response with the magnitude of

14:12

that question . We could talk the rest of this

14:14

episode on on this

14:16

single topic , because

14:18

communicating vision cascading

14:20

vision is is a huge

14:22

, huge Responsibility

14:24

and challenge for leaders , but

14:27

let me give you a couple of quick tips so

14:29

that we can talk about some of the other fundamentals

14:31

. The first thing I would say is

14:33

you need , you need to be able

14:35

to share your hopes and dreams in

14:37

a , in a form and a fashion that

14:40

is simple , clear and repeatable

14:42

, like now . You may be able

14:44

, and should be able to elaborate

14:46

on that . I had

14:48

a leader call me not long ago and he

14:50

said hey , I want to share my vision with you . He

14:53

was actually working on his culture and

14:56

he read me the most eloquent

14:58

, beautiful , well

15:01

thought out , just

15:03

it was . It was , it was beautiful

15:05

. And I said listen , we finished . And I said

15:07

you need to laminate that . And

15:10

he said really . I said it's fantastic . I

15:12

said , however , you need three

15:14

more versions because what he read

15:16

me was several minutes long

15:18

, and I said that's great . I said

15:20

now you need to write an

15:22

elevator speech , write a paragraph

15:25

that represents that . I said

15:27

that'll be your second . And I said , while

15:29

you're headed in that direction , then you need

15:31

to figure out how do you say it in a sentence

15:34

or a phrase . See , far too

15:36

many leaders start with the the phrase

15:38

, and all they're doing is sloganeering

15:40

. There's no meat , there's no substance , there's

15:43

no passion , there's no , there's

15:45

no truth there , it's just . It's

15:47

just a catchy phrase . But because this

15:49

guy had done that hard work first

15:51

, then I said get you something . Peter Drucker

15:53

, the late management and

15:56

leadership Guru , said

15:58

this a hundred years ago , probably not quite , but

16:00

a long time ago . He said if you can't put it

16:02

on a t-shirt , you don't have it . Yet you , that's

16:05

that . That's that little pithy way to help

16:07

people get it and understand it . And

16:09

he said okay , what's the fourth way ? I said now go

16:11

back and do a full keynote . So

16:13

when you can totally unpack this

16:15

because what you read for me was two or three or four minutes

16:17

you're going to be able to talk about this for an hour

16:19

and give examples and illustrations

16:22

and nuance and so forth and so

16:24

on . And so I think you

16:26

it has to at some point , though

16:28

, be clear , simple and repeatable . So that's

16:30

a lot to say . The only other thing I'll say

16:32

is you then have to go to your inner

16:34

circle . Be sure those

16:36

are around . You Understand

16:38

it , because when you start casting

16:40

it publicly , the first

16:43

thing when people have questions , they're

16:45

not going to call you . If you're the point leader , they're

16:47

going to call their boss or their boss's

16:49

boss , and you don't want them to say , well

16:51

, I don't know . I heard it the first time . You heard it , we

16:53

, you know , we're all in this together . We don't know , and

16:56

so that's why cascading

16:58

is so powerful . But if you skip that

17:00

inner circle , you're setting yourself up

17:02

for grief .

17:04

And well , thank you for sharing that , Martha . That's a masterclass

17:06

in vision casting and communication . I

17:09

want to hit a few other foundations of

17:11

the new book . One that I love is

17:13

values , results and relationships

17:15

. What this is

17:17

such attention , I think , for so many leaders . I know

17:19

I am , you know , recovering people , Pleaser

17:22

. I want to make everyone happy . I care more about relationships

17:24

than results , but the reality is , as leaders were

17:26

responsible for both , why . Why is this

17:28

one of the foundations ?

17:31

Well , let me , let me say it

17:33

for most leaders , it's going to be

17:35

the most challenging of the fundamentals , and

17:38

the reason I say that with confidence is

17:40

I believe that most leaders have

17:43

a natural bias . You've confessed

17:45

yours . My natural bias is more

17:47

toward results . Now , there's a really

17:49

small percentage of leaders I've

17:51

done a non scientific study over

17:54

the last 25 years and

17:56

I'm guessing they're probably 5% of leaders

17:59

that value both without any

18:01

extraordinary effort . I

18:04

don't like those leaders because leadership is

18:06

easier for them , but for me and you

18:08

and a whole lot of other leaders , we

18:12

have to find a way to value

18:14

both because there's there's tremendous

18:16

power in that tension

18:18

. Jim Collins

18:21

coined the phrase the genius

18:23

of the , and he found

18:25

this in highly successful organizations

18:27

Gosh , that was probably 20 years ago and

18:30

he would use an example

18:32

like Toyota . When they said we're going to produce high

18:34

quality cars at low cost , it's

18:36

like , well , that doesn't make sense . Well , there's

18:38

power when you can , when you can

18:41

pursue things that on

18:43

the surface and from time to time , actually

18:45

are in oppositions . The genius

18:48

of the and well , valuing results

18:50

and relationships is a perfect example

18:52

of that , and the reason it matters so

18:54

much is that if , if you focus

18:57

exclusively on relationships , you're

18:59

going to suboptimize results . But

19:02

, by the same token , if I focus

19:04

exclusively on results , I'm

19:06

going to suboptimize results . So

19:08

the way you maximize performance

19:10

which is why we lead right , we're trying

19:12

to accomplish something . The

19:15

goal is not leadership , the goals performance

19:17

, and the way you maximize it is

19:19

to value both . That's why

19:21

it matters .

19:22

Yeah , and I'm curious . You know you confessed you're more on

19:24

the results side . How had

19:27

you had to grow ? How did you have to grow

19:29

over the course of your career to be more focused

19:31

on people than the results ?

19:33

Well , it's not a , it's not more

19:35

people than results . It's to value

19:38

both at a very high level

19:40

. Because , see , a lot of folks will say , and you didn't

19:42

say this ? But a lot of folks will say , well , I'm just trying

19:44

to be right in the middle . I said , well then , you're pretty mediocre

19:47

on both . You actually need

19:49

to value both . It's

19:51

like can you , can you get passionate about

19:53

both ? You value both . You

19:55

may not change your hardwiring and

19:58

the way you see the world , but I

20:00

think for me , and I would say for you and for all

20:02

the folks listening , I think it's a two

20:04

step process and I love the fact it's a two

20:06

step process because that's simple , I can

20:08

get my head around it , one which you

20:10

and I have already taken . This first step , it's

20:13

to own your bias . Don't

20:15

don't make excuses , don't hide

20:17

, Don't be ashamed , don't

20:19

wish you were like somebody else . It's like

20:22

no no , you are uniquely made

20:24

to be who you are . Okay

20:26

. So let's start by honoring

20:28

our bias and owning

20:31

it and saying , yep , this is who I am . Step

20:33

two in the process is the money step , and

20:36

that is when you compensate . And

20:38

I liken it to a leader that wears glasses . You

20:41

wouldn't look at a leader who wears glasses and

20:43

say they're a lesser leader because they wear

20:45

glasses . I think you might say

20:47

they're pretty smart because they realized

20:50

there was something they didn't do , naturally

20:52

well , and they found

20:54

the proper prescription to

20:56

compensate . And so I tell

20:58

leaders if you're more results oriented

21:00

, then you have to find ways to compensate

21:03

on the relationship side and vice

21:05

versa . It's like dialing in the

21:07

appropriate prescription what kind of systems

21:10

, what kind of habits

21:13

, what kind of people do you need to bring around you

21:15

? So I would encourage you to be sure

21:17

there are some people who see

21:19

the world differently on your leadership team . If

21:21

we're not careful , we'll select people just

21:23

like us . You'll have a bunch of relationship people

21:25

. You need some folks who value results

21:27

on your leadership team and I need some people

21:30

who value relationships on mine . So

21:32

that's probably the simplest way

21:34

. And then you just have to figure out

21:37

how much of a prescription . How

21:39

much compensation do you need

21:41

so that you can actually value

21:43

both ? Yeah ?

21:45

that's so good . I know this was a huge growth area

21:47

for me . I'm my early 30s . I remember

21:49

I had the opportunity to have a lunch with John Maxwell

21:52

and I was asking him about this and he just said , doug

21:54

, you have to make the decision that you'll always

21:57

love people but not depend

21:59

on their love and , for whatever

22:01

reason , that that was the statement that I needed

22:03

. That kind of made me value both and

22:05

then balance that attention well , and

22:07

every time I'm about to have a hard conversation

22:09

around results , I remind myself of , hey , I'm loving

22:11

this person and actually I'm loving them by being

22:14

honest with them and valuing results . That

22:16

was huge for my growth , and so thank

22:18

you for sharing a little bit about your journey to . Yeah

22:21

so , and the

22:23

other foundation is embody a leader's heart

22:26

. I love this . Why is this important ?

22:29

Okay , this is . I mentioned earlier we were

22:31

, we were pushing two models together . So

22:33

anybody who's read the secret might

22:35

remember that the last

22:38

Fundamental was embody

22:40

the values . And we've

22:42

now changed that because they're five

22:44

heart Habits that we think are

22:46

actually below the waterline

22:48

if you go back to our iceberg . That

22:50

represent a leader's heart . Why

22:53

it's important . If your heart's

22:55

not right , no one cares about

22:57

your skills and there's probably

23:00

somebody listening who's got

23:02

the skills and they wonder why

23:04

people won't follow them Because

23:07

they probably don't trust your heart . And

23:09

I'm not talking about don't lie , don't cheat , don't steal

23:11

that all matters . I'm

23:13

talking about those distinctive

23:16

marks on a leader's

23:18

life . Leaders are different . Leaders

23:21

hunger for wisdom . Leaders expect

23:23

the best . Leaders accept

23:25

responsibility . You see where this is going . Those

23:28

are the heart habits and there are a

23:30

few more that leaders must

23:32

Pursue and

23:35

and ultimately Make

23:38

progress so that people will

23:40

trust you enough to follow

23:42

you .

23:44

Yeah , that's so good . I know you have an assessment with the book

23:46

on all of these , but I'm curious you know how

23:48

, as a leader , do I determine whether

23:50

or not I'm a leader worth following or Get

23:53

feedback around that ?

23:54

Well , you kind of see if people

23:56

are following you . Yes

23:59

, I mean , I got a quote Drucker one more time . He

24:02

said there are two tests of a leader do

24:04

they get results and do they have followers

24:06

?

24:07

Hmm .

24:08

If nobody's following it , john , you talk

24:10

, john . John said this a hundred years ago If

24:13

you , if you , if you're leading and you look over

24:15

your shoulder and nobody's following you , you're

24:17

just out taking a walk , right

24:20

? So I

24:23

think it'll be . It'll be pretty obvious

24:25

if You've

24:28

got heart issues . But the good news is

24:30

, with intention and

24:32

effort , you can change your

24:35

heart and and you

24:37

can become a leader people want to follow .

24:40

Yeah , and you close the book , and I love this

24:42

. You close the book with challenging leaders to always serve

24:44

, and you know Serving leadership is a big topic

24:46

, but why did you close the book that way ?

24:50

Well , you know that part

24:52

of what we're trying to do here is is

24:55

tell folks Uncommon

24:57

leadership is the path to uncommon

25:00

greatness . We didn't talk about that in this interview

25:02

, which is fine , but a lot of leaders

25:04

let me let me go back there for a second a lot

25:07

of leaders are pursuing common

25:09

greatness , in essence , their

25:11

lighters leaning against the wrong wall , and

25:13

Most of them will tell you that

25:15

once they get to the top , it's

25:18

not fulfilling like they thought it would be , it's

25:21

not sustainable , it's , it's

25:23

fleeting , it's , it's

25:26

focused on them . Uncommon

25:28

greatness is focused on others and

25:30

it and it will last and it elicits

25:33

greatness from others

25:35

and when you're pursuing that

25:37

type of greatness , it makes

25:39

all the difference in the world . The path

25:41

is uncommon leadership and You'll

25:45

know those leaders because they're the ones that

25:47

are willing to serve .

25:49

Yeah , I love that . Well , can you talk more about

25:51

? You know , obviously , where people can get the book , but then also

25:53

the assessment that you've provided .

25:56

Yes , there is an assessment

25:58

. If you would text Uncommon

26:02

to six , six , eight

26:04

, six , six , there

26:07

you go , and it's not one of those assessments

26:09

that , when you finish it , you'll think , well , I just wasted

26:11

ten minutes of my life that I'll never get back . It's

26:13

not one of those . It's behaviorally

26:15

based , dependent

26:17

on your responses , and it'll say

26:20

, okay , based on what you said , here's some things

26:22

that we think would help you , and

26:24

I'm really excited about it . The early feedback

26:27

has been positive . We started sharing

26:29

the assessment months

26:31

before the book came out , and so just really

26:34

even in the development phase , we were trying

26:36

to build that . I had a fantastic

26:38

team of a bunch

26:41

of really smart people . We did

26:43

interviews with leaders to figure out what are the

26:45

right areas to probe and what questions

26:47

would maybe not be . The answers

26:49

aren't really obvious , but

26:52

they're telling and help , cause

26:54

we all have our own bias , and so we were trying

26:56

to build something that would get through that

26:58

and around that and add value

27:00

to leaders , and so it's free . I

27:03

hope you'll take it and benefit

27:05

from it .

27:06

Yeah , and Mark , I know we were joking that . You know you write

27:08

a new book every three months , but , man , you have so much

27:10

rich leadership content and I know you're

27:13

always thinking into the future . What's

27:15

on your heart right now for leaders , as you think , even beyond

27:17

this book , like what are you dreaming about ? What do you see

27:19

being down the pipe ?

27:21

I've got two more in the works .

27:23

Of course you do Well .

27:25

One we've already

27:28

invested about $4 million on

27:30

the research , and it's on organizational

27:33

change . Conventional wisdom

27:35

is that 70% of

27:38

organizational change efforts fail

27:40

. I mean , think about the

27:42

cost , the human cost , the

27:44

energy , the emotions , the

27:46

financial implications . Seven

27:49

out of 10 change efforts fail

27:51

, and in reality it

27:53

may be more than that . We've

27:56

done a global survey , talked to leaders

27:58

all over , a lot of work on that , so there

28:00

will be a book on organizational

28:02

change coming Then . One more I'm really

28:05

excited about is we

28:07

are building a leadership operating

28:10

system . We're

28:12

gonna provide a path

28:14

for leaders with three anchors

28:17

One , how do you become a better leader

28:19

. Two , how do you improve

28:21

team performance . And three

28:23

, how do you strengthen your organization

28:26

. And that work is underway

28:28

and should be published . It'll be published

28:30

before the change book . It's

28:32

slated to come out in 25 . So

28:34

a lot of fun stuff in the pipeline .

28:37

And Mark , I'd love to hear you just talk a little bit more about

28:39

your why . I think it was the first interview I asked you

28:41

. Somehow charity

28:43

or generosity came up and you said a lot of your generosity

28:46

goes towards leadership development organizations

28:48

. You just talked about spending

28:50

$4 million on research that'll help make leaders

28:52

better Like . Why are you giving

28:54

your life away towards this vision of reaching 100 million

28:57

leaders ? Why is that so important and compelling to you ?

28:59

Well , I feel

29:01

it's my personal calling and

29:04

, as I mentioned earlier I think I mentioned

29:06

that I've retired from Chick-fil-A

29:08

, which is great . That happened just

29:10

a few months ago and it was a fantastic

29:13

run and I'm so thankful for so many things

29:15

. We don't have time to get into all of that , but

29:17

here's my point of view , and this is I'm

29:20

not throwing shade at anybody who sees

29:22

this differently , but I

29:24

think you can retire from a job

29:26

. I don't think you can retire from a calling

29:28

, and so my calling

29:30

is unchanged , I believe , as

29:33

best I can discern , I'm on the planet

29:35

to encourage and equip leaders

29:37

to change their world , and

29:40

so I don't work at the chicken anymore . But

29:43

those are sort of my standing orders

29:45

and I'm gonna keep working on that until

29:47

I discern that I'm supposed to do something different

29:49

.

29:51

Yeah , and I guess I would ask what's your advice ? I

29:53

try to do the same thing where I'm at . We have a podcast

29:55

conference , all these different things . You

29:57

mentioned this vision of reaching 100 million

29:59

leaders . You've blogged , you have a podcast books

30:01

. What have you found the greatest way to actually

30:04

help equip and train leaders to change the

30:06

world ? What's been most fruitful for you ?

30:09

Well , let me say I don't know the

30:11

answer to that , I mean , but my daddy

30:13

used to out fish me and I think there were

30:15

many reasons he would out fish me , and

30:17

one is he'd put more lines in the water than

30:19

I would . And I think

30:21

the world we live in , I think

30:24

some people want a podcast and some people want

30:26

a book , and some people want a computer assisted

30:29

learning module and some people want

30:31

an app and some people want a journal and

30:33

some people it's like . So

30:35

we're going , we're going to serve a bunch of leaders

30:37

. We're going to have to put a lot of hooks in the water Now

30:40

because of the scale of

30:42

our vision . It will

30:44

have a huge technology component

30:47

and we're building a platform right now , that operating

30:49

system that I mentioned . It will be available

30:52

in an online academy

30:55

so that people who want

30:57

that form of learning can access

31:00

it , and that will be the ticket to scale

31:02

. I mean , I'll still stand up and do

31:04

keynotes , but you're not going to reach a hundred million people doing

31:06

keynotes . You're not going to reach a hundred million people

31:08

writing books . So , because

31:11

of the magnitude of that

31:13

vision , we will build

31:15

over time what I believe will

31:17

be a robust technology

31:20

platform .

31:21

Yeah , I love that vision of getting a bunch of lines in the

31:23

water . I love , love , love that , as we close

31:25

, open ended Anything else you want to leave or

31:28

challenge leaders with today .

31:31

Well , I guess a challenge

31:33

and then a footnote . You

31:36

know what you do matters . I want

31:38

to remind you what you do matters

31:41

. Everything rises and falls on

31:43

leadership . We quote John one more time

31:45

. I mean he got that right Churches

31:48

and schools and hospitals and families

31:50

and chicken restaurants , and everything

31:52

rises and falls on leadership . We are

31:55

the strategic lever to

31:57

literally change the world

31:59

. Wow . And so I want to

32:02

continue to encourage you . I know it's

32:04

hard . I had a CEO just recently . I'd

32:06

done a keynote for her as

32:08

a workshop for her senior leaders like

32:10

10 leaders in the room and I got through . The

32:12

CEO was the first to speak and

32:14

she said what you're talking about

32:17

sounds hard . And

32:19

I said all of you signed up for a hard

32:21

job . There are much easier

32:23

ways to make a living .

32:28

It is hard .

32:28

We want to make it doable . Hard , not destructive

32:31

. Hard , that's another talk for another day . But

32:33

it is hard , and so that's why I want

32:35

to be one more voice , not only encouraging

32:38

you , but I want to equip you so

32:40

that you can be successful . So

32:43

the footnote and I did this , I

32:45

think , on our last show I want to give everybody

32:47

my cell number in case they

32:49

want to reach out . That number is

32:51

678-612-8441

32:56

.

32:57

Wow , and we'll include a link to the book . We'll include

32:59

his cell phone number and everything

33:02

else that we discussed in the show notes , so make sure you check

33:04

those out , mark . Thank you again . The third

33:06

interview was wonderful . Thank you for

33:08

adding value to me . I'm one of the 100 million

33:10

that you're impacting in . Hopefully we'll do this again

33:12

soon . Great , doug , thank you very much . You're

33:15

welcome . Well , leader , thank you so much for

33:17

listening to my conversation with Mark . I hope that you

33:19

enjoyed it as much as I did . You can find ways

33:21

to connect with him and links to everything that we discussed

33:23

in the show notes at l3leadership . org/411

33:25

And , as

33:28

always , leader , I like to end every episode with a quote , and today

33:30

I'll quote Rosalind Carter , who said this a

33:32

leader takes people where they want to go . A

33:34

great leader takes people where they don't necessarily

33:37

want to go , but ought to be . I

33:39

love that . Well , leader , I say it every episode , but

33:41

know that my wife Laura and I love you . We believe in you

33:43

and don't quit . Keep leading . The

33:45

world desperately needs your leadership

33:47

. We'll talk to you next episode .