0:00

It keeps me in the light . I don't have

0:02

secrets anymore . I just bring

0:04

them into the light , either with somebody or

0:06

with my husband , or in prayer . That's

0:08

the lifestyle of overcoming .

0:17

Hey , leader , and welcome to another episode of the L3

0:20

Leadership Podcast , where we are obsessed with helping

0:22

you grow to your maximum potential and to maximize

0:24

the impact of your leadership . My name is Doug

0:26

Smith and I am your host In today's episode . It's brought

0:28

to you by my friends Beratung Advisors . We

0:31

also recorded this live from the new Birgo Realty

0:33

Studio . If you're new to the podcast

0:35

, welcome . I'm so glad that you're here and I hope that you enjoy

0:37

our content and become a subscriber . Know that you

0:39

can also watch all of our episodes over on our YouTube

0:41

channel , so make sure you're subscribed there as well

0:43

. And , as always , if you've been listening to the podcast

0:45

and its impact on your life , it would mean the world to me if

0:47

you'd leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts

0:50

or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts through

0:52

. That really does help us to grow our audience and

0:54

reach more leaders , so thank you in advance for that

0:56

. While , leader , in today's episode you're going to hear

0:58

my conversation with the founder of Annie

1:00

Ann's Pretzels who doesn't love those , ann

1:03

Beiler and I would tell you a lot more

1:05

about her now , but she's actually going to share her story

1:07

and I'm pretty sure everyone on the planet knows

1:09

Annie Ann's Pretzels and if you've never

1:11

heard Ann and you've never heard her story

1:13

, just get ready . It is so

1:15

powerful and I know you're going to be challenged , I know you're

1:17

going to be inspired and I'm just so grateful

1:19

that she was willing to take the time to share

1:22

this here . So I know you're going to be blessed . But before we dive

1:24

into her story , just a few announcements . This

1:27

episode of the L3 Leadership Podcast is sponsored

1:29

by Beratung Advisors . The financial

1:32

advisors at Beratung Advisors help educate

1:34

and empower clients to make informed financial

1:36

decisions . You can find out how Beratung

1:38

Advisors can help you develop a customized financial

1:41

plan for your financial future by visiting

1:43

their website at baritungadvisorscom

1:45

. That's B-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisorscom

1:49

. Securities and investment products

1:51

and services offered through LPL Financial

1:54

, member FINRA and SIPC . Beratung

1:56

Advisors , lpl Financial and L3 Leadership

1:58

are separate entities . I

2:00

also want to thank our sponsor , Henne Jewelers . They're a jeweler

2:02

owned by my friend and mentor , John Henne , and

2:05

my wife Laura and I got our engagement and wedding

2:07

rings through Henne Jewelers and had an incredible experience

2:09

. And not only do they have great jewelry

2:11

, but they also invest in people . In fact , for

2:13

every couple that comes in engage , they give them a book

2:15

to help them prepare for marriage , and we just love that . So

2:18

if you're in need of a good jeweler , check out hennyjewelerscom

2:21

. And with all that being said , let's dive right in

2:23

. Here's my conversation with Anne Beiler the founder

2:25

of Auntie Anne's Pretzels . Enjoy

2:27

. Anne

2:31

Beiler , welcome to the L3 Leadership Podcast

2:33

. I'm extremely excited for this conversation . We're so

2:35

glad to have you .

2:37

Well , it's my pleasure to be on

2:39

your podcast today , Doug , and thank you for having

2:41

me .

2:42

Yeah Well , we're going to go into all

2:44

kinds of different directions with you and your story , but

2:47

obviously you're most known for being the

2:49

founder of Auntie Anne's Pretzels , which I

2:51

don't think there's a person on the planet that doesn't love those

2:53

. When I told people I was interviewing you , they're

2:55

like can we get some free pretzels ?

2:57

I know People still want freebies .

3:00

So funny . But I want to dive

3:02

in your story , but before we do and we'll dive more into

3:05

Auntie Anne's later but can you at least give people an idea

3:07

of the scope of where Auntie

3:09

Anne's was and what you built it to prior to

3:11

selling it , and then we'll dive into your story .

3:14

Yeah , sure . So we started back in

3:16

1988 in

3:18

a little farmer's market in downtown Pennsylvania

3:20

. I grew up in the Amish culture

3:22

which my mom and dad were

3:24

old order Amish until I was three

3:27

and then we went to the black car Amish

3:29

. We moved on up which meant

3:31

we could have a car it had to be black

3:33

and my dad could farm with a tractor

3:35

instead of horses and we had electricity

3:38

. So it wasn't so

3:41

bad . We had some . It was pretty cool

3:43

. But on the other

3:45

hand , we looked at Amish and I grew up

3:47

in that culture , very knowledgeable

3:50

and understand the traditions

3:53

and I grew up in this very

3:55

, I want to say it

3:58

was a very good environment for me as

4:00

a child . My mom and dad loved us , cared

4:03

for eight of us kids , or three boys , three

4:05

girls and five boys and

4:08

it wasn't almost . Looking back

4:10

I just realized how good

4:12

it was and how it almost seems idyllic

4:14

to me today because

4:16

I've experienced a lot of life

4:18

since that time . At the

4:21

age of 16 , I met my husband

4:23

, jonas

4:25

, and he was my attraction

4:27

and the love of my life . As soon as

4:29

I met him and obviously at that point

4:31

in my life was pretty short , but

4:34

he was a good man Also grew

4:36

up in the Amish culture , and a

4:38

good looking guy and worked hard and love

4:40

God . I'm like , wow , okay , I hit the jackpot with

4:42

this guy . I hope I can marry him one day . And three

4:44

years later we got married . I was 19 in the year

4:47

21 . And it's still very culturally

4:49

. That's Amish people

4:51

, amish men , and eight he's still married

4:53

, most of them married very young , because

4:56

we are taught well about how to

4:58

do family , work hard and care

5:00

for each other . My mom always said little children

5:02

, love each other , do not give each other pain . When

5:05

one speaks to you in anger , do not answer

5:07

them again . So we had all these . You

5:09

know , forgive and peace , salt

5:11

and light and go this heck of

5:13

a mouth . So you know I really had a great starting

5:15

life , doug , and when

5:17

I look back at that I realized

5:20

that was enough . You

5:22

know that foundation

5:25

helped me weather the storms

5:27

of life . Mama , dad took us to church

5:29

, of course , every Sunday , without fail

5:31

. We sat around our dinner table , three

5:33

around our kitchen table , I

5:35

might say three times a day breakfast

5:38

lunch and dinner without fail

5:40

All of the years I was at home . There

5:42

was never an exception to that , unless

5:45

we may have been out visiting or something

5:47

. But yeah , that's what we did . And

5:50

so I realized that the around

5:52

the table being with my family , mom and dad

5:54

always being around was

5:57

. I look at that right now and I didn't think

5:59

, of course , didn't realize at the time , but what

6:01

a gift to our family that they

6:03

were always around . In particular

6:06

, my mom and dad went to farmers

6:08

markets from in Philadelphia

6:11

for a couple of years and during

6:13

those years I was around 11 , 12 and 13

6:15

. And I would come home from market

6:17

and my mom that was the only night that she was

6:19

not at home when I got over from school and

6:21

she would have a list for

6:23

me to a pies and

6:25

cakes that she wanted me to bake and

6:28

I would do that in my farmhouse kitchen

6:30

I'm sorry , basement . I would

6:32

go down the basement steps as a little girl I

6:34

remember I would . Many times I would cry because

6:37

my mom was not there and

6:39

but I knew how to do this and I made 60

6:42

to 70 pies and cakes every Thursday

6:44

night for maybe two years by

6:46

myself while the other kids were out doing

6:48

their chores , you know anyway . So

6:50

I feel like God set me up for something

6:52

that I would never have dreamed of , which was Auntie

6:54

and Sup Pretzels and going

6:57

from one store , a Downing

7:00

Town , and then two stores that

7:02

that year , the very first year , 12 stores

7:04

the next year , 35

7:06

the next and 15 years so the following year

7:08

. So we just kept growing until we sold

7:10

the company in 2015

7:13

. And by that time we had almost 900

7:15

locations . So for

7:17

this little Amish go from Anixtra County , pennsylvania

7:20

, let me tell you , god worked an amazing

7:22

work in my heart , in my

7:24

mind , in my professional world , in

7:26

my personal life , in my spiritual life . Those

7:28

almost 20 years I always say

7:30

that Auntie and grew me up . That's where

7:33

. I learned real life .

7:35

Wow . Well , I certainly want to dive into leadership

7:37

lessons with that a little bit later , but

7:39

what I think so interesting

7:42

is , you know , you just shared your story . If we just shared

7:44

what you just shared , it's business like hey had a great childhood

7:46

, had great parents , and basically you

7:48

started a company and scaled and we sold

7:50

it and it was fantastic .

7:52

But that's right .

7:54

Behind the scenes . You know , I know your story , that

7:56

that you know it wasn't all up into the

7:58

right , it wasn't all perfect , and you actually experienced

8:00

. You know a lot . Can you share a little bit about

8:03

? You know your story beyond , behind

8:05

the veil of any ends

8:07

and in your upbringing .

8:09

Thank you , doug . Yeah , because that's really what . That's

8:12

really what made

8:15

me who I am today , you know , not the success

8:18

of the ends , although that grew

8:20

me up , but what really sparked

8:22

my spiritual journey . As

8:25

a kid I knew I knew God and I loved

8:27

him and I believed that life is

8:30

good because it

8:32

was , and that God is harsh . Because

8:34

I was taught that if you keep the 10 commandments

8:37

and you know , do your very best to keep them all

8:39

that God would be very pleased with me

8:42

and he would smile on me . But

8:44

if I did something , you know I don't know how wrong something

8:47

should be to be wrong , but I

8:49

just knew that if I did something wrong , maybe

8:52

God would be just pleased with me . What I know

8:54

today , doug , is that that's bad theology

8:56

number one . And also what

8:59

I know is that , after over seven

9:01

decades of real life experiences

9:03

, I know today that

9:05

life is hard . God

9:07

is good , and I'm not

9:09

confused about that anymore , but I sure

9:11

was for many years . So

9:13

Jonas and I were happily married for about

9:15

seven years and we had two little girls

9:17

, one four and one 19 months old , and our

9:21

sweet Angie Angela

9:23

Joy . We live right next to my

9:25

parents during that time and she would

9:29

always make her little trek up to my

9:31

mom's house for her second breakfast

9:33

very often , and one

9:35

particular morning she went up to mom's house and we

9:38

lived in the country , so it was a very common

9:40

, or sometimes the two of the girls would walk

9:42

up together . But that particular

9:44

morning I saw her walk out

9:47

our drive , out our

9:49

, through our yard , headed from my mom's house , which

9:51

I always stood at my door waiting , watching

9:54

her go to make sure that she got around the corner

9:56

and was heading in the right direction

9:58

. Then I would call mom and tell her she's on the way , and

10:00

that morning I watched her , never said goodbye

10:03

to her , never called her back

10:05

, and the unusual part about that morning was that she

10:07

still had her pajamas on and

10:09

I kept thinking I should call her back

10:11

and , you know , change her for the day

10:13

, and . But I didn't . And

10:16

so I turned around , walked into the house and I

10:18

put my hand on the phone and as I did , I heard

10:20

all of this commotion

10:23

, screaming , yelling . I

10:26

had never heard anything like it , but in my heart , immediately

10:28

I knew that Angie

10:31

was gone . And

10:33

I don't know how I knew that , except

10:36

that a mother's instinct is very strong and it's

10:38

very real and it's most times

10:40

right . And

10:42

so I ran to my front door

10:44

and in that moment my father

10:46

was bringing , carrying Angie's

10:49

body in his arms , just wailing

10:51

that I believe she's dead . I believe she's dead . Well

10:54

, of course , doug , you know that's tragic and

10:57

traumatic because

10:59

I had been , I was , I was

11:02

living a good life , I'd

11:04

been a pretty good girl according to the standards

11:06

of the , you know , the church , and immediately

11:10

, as Angie made her ascended to heaven

11:12

that morning , I knew where she went and

11:16

there was some comfort in that . But as time went on

11:18

, the longing and the loneliness and the questions

11:20

and the grief and just

11:22

as sadness was overwhelming and

11:24

I began my very slow and

11:26

gradual descent into a world that I knew nothing

11:29

about emotional pain and spiritual

11:31

confusion . That

11:35

journey , you know it's hard for me to explain it . You

11:38

know just how , how it happened for me

11:40

. But I went from really believing

11:43

and trusting in God to why

11:45

, if

11:48

I was good , why did you do this to

11:50

me ? I know today that's everybody

11:52

asked that question . Why , god ? You know , and

11:54

I think that we forget that Jesus

11:57

was very clear when he said the enemy

11:59

has come to steal , to

12:01

kill and to destroy , and

12:04

I have come to give you life , and

12:06

so I think that we're very confused about that . But we

12:08

all everybody asked that question why God

12:10

? And that became my question . There were no answers

12:13

for me . Even though I kept calling the church my

12:16

husband , I began to drift apart emotionally

12:18

. We , of course , stayed together and

12:21

after a couple of months of and I would always

12:23

cry when

12:25

nobody was watching and I tried to be

12:27

strong I felt like I had to carry this grief

12:29

. You know , I had to carry it by myself

12:32

. That

12:35

was so . It's not okay

12:37

to carry our grief by ourselves , and Jonah's

12:39

not going to be able to talk about

12:41

things . And

12:44

so we then began to live in a silent marriage

12:46

and a couple of months , a

12:48

very short time later , my pastor

12:50

gave to me at church and and

12:53

it has to be to come to his office and

12:56

just to talk , and

12:58

I'd never talked to him before about anything

13:00

that I was feeling or anything in life , about

13:02

my experience , and I had never really taken

13:05

the time to do that because life had been good for me . So

13:07

I was relieved when I felt like

13:09

, wow , I can . I

13:11

can just at least try to talk about what

13:14

I'm feeling . It was a very

13:16

difficult thing for me to think

13:18

about talking about it , but I went and

13:20

so it was . It was a good conversation

13:23

for the most part and at the very end of it , though , he took

13:25

advantage of me physically and

13:28

I I

13:31

, I was devastated because

13:33

I didn't understand the number

13:35

one , why ? And number two

13:37

, I guess I

13:39

did something that I don't know that

13:42

made him do that to me . So

13:44

of course , the guilt , you know

13:46

Angie , took me into a place of sad

13:49

, deep sadness and grief . But this

13:51

was the journey for me of guilt and shame , and

13:56

it wasn't my fault that that

13:58

he did that to me . I know that now . But

14:01

at the time , when I walked out of the office

14:03

, out of his office , I clearly

14:05

remember making

14:08

a choice that I would never

14:10

tell . And let me tell you

14:12

, doug , that's , that's a big

14:14

lie , and

14:17

that's where Satan very often grips

14:20

us in our secrets , and

14:23

I've never in my life kept a secret from Jonas

14:25

, ever . I mean , there was no need to , you know . So

14:28

that took me then into the dark

14:30

world . And that one

14:32

choice , that was my choice . And

14:35

but I made that choice because I felt like

14:37

there was no alternative

14:39

because I didn't know

14:41

, you know , like who , who , who did I

14:43

tell anything ? I didn't know how to talk about Angie's

14:45

death , how would I know how to describe

14:48

or even have the vocabulary to talk

14:50

about abuse ? And that one , that

14:52

one secret kept me in nearly

14:54

seven years of abuse

14:56

of every kind and

14:59

took me into the dark world and kept me there

15:01

. And Satan gave me the tools I needed to keep

15:03

me there and I almost

15:05

succumbed and almost , almost

15:08

died there , physically , almost died there

15:10

.

15:14

Well , thank you for sharing that story . So

15:17

after the seven years , I do think it's important

15:19

. So what happened after that seven year period

15:21

that kind of brought you out of that ?

15:23

Well , you know , I stayed there too long and

15:26

my message today is for people that are

15:28

in dark places and don't know how to get out . I

15:30

felt stuck , I felt like there was no , no

15:32

way out and I I , I

15:34

believe truly believed that life

15:36

was over for me . I

15:39

knew I believe the lies that I was unlovable

15:42

, I was unforgivable and

15:45

for sure , I was unchangeable

15:47

. I didn't feel like there was anything

15:49

within me that I had to offer to

15:51

anyone . I didn't feel like I had the ability

15:54

to change anything

15:56

. I was stuck in this

15:58

, this dark place , and

16:00

did not know how to get out . And

16:03

I weighed 90 pounds . I

16:06

was falling apart from the inside out . I

16:08

was majorly depressed

16:10

and went to the doctor

16:12

a couple of times because , physically , I

16:14

thought that I had ulcers in

16:16

my stomach and my heart raced and I thought

16:18

I was having a heart attack . So I mean physically

16:20

secrets over time

16:23

will kill you . If

16:25

not physically , you die emotionally

16:27

. And Dr Richard Dobbins says that

16:29

the tragedy is not in dying , but

16:33

it's what dies inside of us while we live

16:35

. I was dying inside

16:37

and I was trying to live , and

16:40

so at the end of all those years , I prayed

16:42

and I wept and I just got to

16:44

deliver me . And I knew that one day it was just

16:46

like I don't know , come down and somehow just

16:48

deliver me out of this dark place . But

16:51

one day I was compelled by a Holy

16:53

Spirit within me that said get

16:55

up off your knees , stop

16:58

crying and go tell

17:00

. Go tell your husband . You

17:03

know the story of the man by the pool of the pesta

17:05

. You know , for 38 years he sat there , waited

17:07

, tried to get into the

17:09

pool and he wasn't

17:11

able to manage that and

17:14

had all the reasons as to why he couldn't get

17:16

into the pool for his healing . When Jesus came to

17:18

him that day he said to him Sir

17:21

, would you like to be healed ? You

17:24

know , and that's a question of all

17:26

time , do we want to be healed ? And

17:28

my , the question , for me , was I

17:30

wanted to be healed but , like , like

17:33

the man by the pool , I didn't know

17:35

how to get into the water

17:37

, I didn't know how , I didn't know where to go , what to

17:39

do . But that morning Holy

17:41

Spirit was very clear with me and go tell

17:43

. And I

17:46

gathered my broken self together

17:48

. I'm

17:55

sorry , it's okay

17:57

, I'm grateful . I remember it very clearly . I

18:05

gather myself together in Holy Spirit within

18:07

me Never left me , doug . He

18:10

never left me because it was him

18:12

. It was him he gave

18:14

me the courage . Wow . So

18:16

I gathered it all up in my

18:18

heart and palm

18:20

sweating and heart racing , and all

18:22

the way to my husband's , jonas's repair

18:26

shop I kept saying , god , I can't do this

18:28

, I can't , do this , I can't

18:30

. But I kept driving and when I got

18:32

there I made a very hard . When

18:35

I say hard , no feeling , no emotion

18:37

, two sentences

18:39

could passionate him and

18:42

the look in his eyes was scary

18:45

. I had never seen the sadness

18:47

or the that look and whatever

18:49

that look was . I had to turn

18:51

around and leave . I couldn't touch him

18:53

. I didn't say it . Forgive

18:56

me please . My end , my the end of my conversation

18:58

confessional , is simply I'm sorry

19:00

and I'm a sorry person , and

19:03

that that principles founded James 516

19:06

. I didn't really understand that principle at

19:08

the time . I didn't even know it was in the Bible . I

19:10

just know Holy Spirit gave me the courage to

19:12

do what I had to do that morning . But

19:15

, as from that day to this day , doug

19:17

, I've learned the power of

19:19

of being real , open , honest

19:22

. And let me tell you something there's

19:24

no other way . There

19:27

is no other way . I prayed for seven years

19:29

and

19:31

I stayed in this dark place . Jesus and

19:33

God , holy Spirit , sustain me . They

19:36

never let go because they won't

19:38

. They promised that they would

19:40

stay with us forever and

19:43

they stayed with me . But wow . And

19:46

so that day , though the choice I

19:48

made to tell Jonas that James

19:50

516 model can bet your balls

19:52

one to another and pray , and

19:55

then you'll be healed . And

19:57

that's the model . I feel like us , as Christians

20:00

, as believers , followers of Christ , whoever we

20:02

think we are , whatever we're

20:04

following Christ . But you know , what we want

20:06

to do is pray , never

20:08

tell and

20:11

expect God to heal . And

20:13

I believe that James 516 is

20:15

not the spiritual connection

20:17

with Jesus , it's the relational

20:19

model . It's the model that builds and heals

20:22

, heals and builds relationships . Without

20:25

that confession to Jonas that day it

20:28

was long before , it was five years before he ends there

20:31

would not be an anti-an . Wow

20:34

, jonas and I would not be together today

20:36

and there would not be

20:38

an anti-an . And I always say can you

20:40

imagine a world without anti-an

20:42

self-rencils ? No , I mean

20:44

so . I mean it sounds

20:46

silly , but that is a truth . Every

20:49

time I say that it is , my heart feels

20:51

it , my stomach feels it . It's true . So

20:53

the point to that is , you know

20:55

, satan wants to destroy you . Why

20:58

, why ? Because

21:00

he doesn't want you to fulfill the purpose

21:03

for which God created you , for that's

21:05

why he wants to destroy you , because

21:07

he knows that once you

21:10

are well , once if you're able to overcome

21:12

and you're able to live a life of freedom

21:14

and truth , honesty , transparency

21:16

. You know confession is , it

21:18

feels like a , it feels hard

21:21

and harsh and subjective

21:23

, but you know what it really

21:25

means . You know . Be open , honest

21:27

, transparent , because as you do that , then you are

21:30

actually walking in the light

21:32

with your faults , your failures , your

21:34

sin , your mistakes , your struggles . You

21:36

know , we all live those things every day . But

21:39

as we are able to talk and

21:42

talk about it and confess

21:44

it to someone , that's

21:47

where we begin to live in the light . We

21:49

walk in the light , as he is in the light

21:51

, and then we have fellowship with one

21:54

another . What we're doing right now , doug , is we have fellowship

21:56

with one another , and then the

21:59

blood of Christ cleanses us from

22:01

all sin . It's all

22:03

about bringing our deeds into the light , no matter

22:05

how hard , no matter how bad , no

22:07

matter what the struggle is . But when you begin

22:09

to do that , as it happened for me that

22:11

day with Jones , there was not an instant

22:13

miracle , let me tell you for sure . But

22:16

there was something inside of me that

22:19

I began to feel lighter

22:21

, slowly but surely . I

22:23

mean , the weight of it was still here , but

22:26

I knew I had done the right thing . And when

22:28

Jonas came home that night , he

22:31

simply said to me we need to talk . And

22:36

I didn't want to talk . I had just

22:38

given him the greatest , the

22:40

most information that I had told

22:42

anyone about my secret

22:44

, and he wants to talk about it

22:46

. It was a hard

22:49

, hard evening . But what he said to me after that

22:51

is what got me on the path of

22:54

really truth and believing

22:57

that maybe there's hope for

22:59

me . I was done , life was over . During

23:02

those years I truly believed , doug , that my only

23:04

option was to take my life

23:06

. That seemed easier

23:09

than to tell my

23:11

secret . Can you , I mean , think about

23:14

that ? But that's where I stayed

23:16

for about three years of those nearly seven . I

23:18

thought about it , had suicidal

23:20

thoughts , but yet

23:22

I still wanted family , I still wanted my children

23:25

, I still wanted to be married to Jonas , but I didn't

23:27

know how to get back to that . So

23:30

, anyway , as we began to talk , he

23:32

said I know that you

23:34

have not been happy , but

23:38

if you want to be happy , I want you

23:40

to be happy and if

23:42

you have to leave , if you have

23:44

to go somewhere , please don't leave a note on the address

23:47

or on the middle of the night and go , but

23:50

just come to me and talk to me . Tell

23:53

me what you need , we'll

23:58

talk about it . I'll help you

24:00

find a house . Wow . And

24:02

I'll help you pack your bags , but you have to take your girls

24:05

with you because they

24:07

need their mother . Okay

24:09

, doug , so that was it right

24:12

there . He believed in me . And

24:16

how could he do that ? It's because

24:18

during that day he

24:21

called a counselor and

24:23

the counselors and Jonas was completely

24:26

distraught . He I

24:28

can't tell the story right now because it takes

24:31

too long but in the few hours maybe

24:33

eight hours he had called a counselor

24:35

and the counselor had

24:37

said to me , or had said

24:40

to him you have a right to divorce your wife . I

24:42

guess Even at that time

24:44

, doug , we didn't understand actual

24:46

abuse of spiritual power . We didn't

24:48

even understand . It's

24:51

like I hadn't up there for almost seven years

24:53

. But I understand

24:55

. I understood much later . Abuse

24:58

is not the same as an affair and

25:00

anyway , that's a whole other subject which I

25:02

speak about in my book . It's called those Secret

25:05

Lies Within . But that

25:07

day , when he said that to

25:09

me that the

25:11

girls need their mother

25:13

, you

25:16

can't even understand

25:19

the impact that had on me because

25:21

, again , I was unforgivable and lovable and

25:23

changeable . I don't deserve anything good . I

25:25

was unworthy of the shame , the cloak of shame I wore every single

25:27

day . There was nothing good

25:30

. I could never have written

25:33

anything good or anything that I liked about

25:35

myself at that point

25:37

. And so I said okay , I

25:39

promise you I won't leave you in the middle of the night . And then I asked

25:41

him can you make

25:43

a promise to me ? And he said sure . I

25:46

said promise me you won't rub my past

25:48

in my face ever

25:50

. Wow , he's right . And

25:53

you know what , Doug , from that day . And

25:56

he said I promise , from

25:59

that day to this he has never . We

26:01

have talked about it a lot , all as

26:03

well . But the

26:05

challenge that the counselor gave

26:07

in that day was you can either go and divorce

26:10

your wife and have

26:12

a committed adultery and you

26:15

can go do what your wife has done , or

26:17

you can love her like

26:20

Jesus loves

26:22

you , not

26:25

like Jesus loves the church , because

26:27

he heard that all his life . But

26:30

he said there was something about when

26:32

the man challenged him to love your

26:34

wife like Jesus loves you

26:36

, he said . In that

26:38

moment I began to weep like a baby because

26:42

I began to think about how is it , how

26:46

does Jesus love me ? And

26:49

my focus changed from

26:52

what happened to Anne or

26:55

what Anne did to me to how

26:57

is it that he

26:59

loves me and how can I love

27:01

Anne and the girls in

27:03

the same way . And

27:06

that , doug , is what kept our marriage together and

27:10

he would tell you that God did a work of

27:12

grace in both of us , and

27:14

that's why we're still one today , after 55

27:16

years .

27:18

Wow . Well , thank

27:20

you so much for sharing your story and thank God

27:22

for your husband , thank God for God speaking

27:24

to you , and thank God that you had the courage to confess

27:27

and not just give it all up . So thank

27:29

you for that . A few follow-up

27:31

questions just that , I think , will help

27:33

One . I just love that you are vulnerable

27:36

and willing to share your story , because I feel like so

27:38

many people are going through similar

27:40

things and they don't speak up and they think they're the only

27:42

person on the planet dealing with this , and

27:44

so I guess my first question

27:46

would just be if someone's listening to us and

27:48

they're in the middle of being

27:50

sexually abused or in a situation

27:53

where they're being victimized and they feel

27:55

similar to you do , if I share this , if

27:57

this ever comes out , my life's already

27:59

over . They've been in forever

28:01

. What would you say to that person ?

28:04

Well , I've written a book about it . Again

28:06

, I'll mention that it's secretized within . So

28:10

that's a very , that's a deep

28:12

question , a loaded question , but

28:15

I'll just share my experience with that which I mentioned

28:17

a minute ago , was to , first

28:19

of all

28:22

, be courageous . It

28:25

takes courage , it takes strength . It's

28:29

almost impossible to do it by yourself

28:31

. So I would encourage

28:34

anyone to who is

28:36

in your life right now

28:38

, that you know loves

28:40

you . Number one that you know

28:43

has been down the road

28:45

and has experienced , maybe has

28:47

experienced some , some hardships in their

28:49

life and they have gotten to a point

28:51

in life where they've overcome and you know they're

28:54

strong and they're steady and they , they , they

28:56

can love you and guide you . You

28:58

don't want to go to the bar and talk about your

29:00

troubles at a bar . I

29:03

mean , people do that all the time and there's

29:05

something kind of like appealing

29:07

to me about that , Like , actually , why

29:09

can we not do that in the church ? Why

29:12

? can we not , you know

29:14

, just go and say , hey , this

29:16

is my problem , this is what I'm struggling

29:19

with , and I'm like , why

29:21

can we not do that ? We should be able to

29:23

, because you know , we've we've

29:25

been instructed to bear one another's burdens

29:28

and so , as we do that

29:30

, we fulfill the law of Christ . So I

29:32

believe that it's really the only way that

29:34

you'll be able to overcome any of your

29:36

, your struggles and the and the depression

29:39

and the , the anxiety

29:41

, and you know , we hear so

29:43

. So many people today

29:46

, you know , struggle with panic attacks

29:48

and and

29:51

it's all around . I don't , I don't know that

29:53

I go through a day without somebody telling me that

29:55

I'm I'm anxious or I haven't . I feel

29:57

like I'm having anxiety or I'm having a panic

29:59

attack . It's almost like a buzzword and

30:01

I'm saying there is a better way

30:04

and I truly

30:06

believe . You know , I

30:08

love the fact that Jesus died

30:10

for our sins . That's

30:13

like wow

30:16

. But I just , you know , a couple of years ago , I

30:18

realized , as I read the

30:20

Easter story once again read Isaiah

30:22

and Easter story and I realized

30:24

Jesus not only died

30:26

for my sins , but

30:28

he carried my shame

30:30

and what

30:33

most of it experience with

30:35

abuse of any kind , whether it's verbal

30:37

, physical , sexual

30:40

bullying , whatever

30:42

it may be , the abuse

30:44

that we've experienced , you know , somehow

30:47

it fills us

30:49

with shame . What someone has done to

30:51

us to hurt us fills

30:54

us with shame , Like

30:56

it's my fault , Like I must have done

30:58

something wrong . And yes , you know , after

31:00

I experienced what I did with the abuse , I became

31:03

, you know , hurt people , hurt other

31:05

people . I abandoned

31:07

my children , not not physically , but emotionally

31:10

. I abandoned my children . I mean I could

31:12

, I can write a book , I have written a book about you

31:14

know how I responded to the pain

31:16

and that was inflicted

31:19

on me . But then I began to inflict pain

31:21

on my family . And so

31:23

the shame that you feel , number

31:25

one , is that somebody did this to me . And then , number

31:28

two , you feel ashamed

31:30

because now you are , you

31:32

know , I know some young people that I've isolated

31:35

themselves . They're mean and

31:37

short tempered and angry at their

31:39

families , at their parents , and are mad

31:41

at mom and dad and mad at God . So

31:43

all of these things , you

31:46

know , there's really only one

31:48

way we try to drug it away

31:50

, we try to sex it away

31:53

. We become workaholics , we , we

31:55

, we come , we can even become ministers

31:57

. We start , you know , busy in the ministry

32:00

. We exercise

32:02

it away , we try to . This pain is inside of

32:04

us . We're up to here . We

32:06

can know we can hardly carry it

32:09

anymore , and I know that there's

32:11

people in your audience that are there

32:13

right now . And

32:15

the only way for me

32:17

I tried everything the

32:20

only way for me was to begin to unload

32:22

, and the only way you can do that is

32:24

to actually talk about it . It's

32:28

so hard , I know . So

32:30

when I talk about finding someone

32:32

that

32:35

could help you and you

32:37

know I'm careful about this because I

32:39

felt like I went to the right place I

32:42

mean I went to my pastor , someone

32:44

that I truly trusted . So

32:46

how do you know who to go to ? I

32:51

pray that you ask , that you ask

32:53

, first of all , ask Holy Spirit to help you

32:55

find the right person and

32:58

gather one or two close

33:00

friends that can guide you . And

33:03

then , ultimately , if you're

33:05

abused , you find yourself

33:07

almost depressed

33:09

, so bad that you want to take your life . You have

33:12

to call . Maybe it's a helpline , maybe

33:15

it's somebody in your church , maybe it's someone in your neighborhood

33:17

, maybe it's someone at school that your

33:20

teacher or your I don't know , but you

33:22

have to find somebody to talk to . And

33:24

that jug is then the beginning of

33:27

opening a door to a better

33:29

life . And there's a verse in Proverbs 6-5

33:31

that if the audience that

33:34

you have is they're not all believers . But let me

33:36

tell you this is practical advice , and

33:38

it says in Proverbs 6-5

33:41

, set yourself free like

33:43

a gazelle from the hand of the

33:45

hunter , like a bird

33:47

from the snare of the fallow . Think

33:49

about that picture . That

33:52

means great struggle . So

33:55

what you're about to do is

33:57

not easy . It is a

33:59

great struggle , like it was for me , and even

34:01

after I made my confession , I began to

34:03

talk to Jonas . I had no idea

34:06

how deep I

34:08

was in my darkness

34:10

and how long it would take

34:13

me to get to a place of

34:15

total freedom . But I have to

34:17

tell you I mean , that has been my experience it's

34:20

beginning to talk , finding

34:22

the right person and eventually

34:24

finding a trauma therapist

34:27

, a good Christian , solid trauma

34:29

therapist , or start with just a

34:31

Christian counselor , but

34:33

someone that is , I have to almost say , professional

34:36

, because

34:39

I didn't want to talk to anyone , doug , that would talk

34:41

to me about Bible verses . I mean , I

34:43

hate to admit that , but I knew all the verses

34:45

, I

34:48

knew what to do , but I couldn't

34:50

do it . And so the

34:53

Word of God is very important

34:55

, going to church and

34:58

doing all the things that we do as followers

35:00

of Christ is really important . But

35:02

I did all that and

35:04

the only thing that set me free

35:06

was to begin to talk . And there's

35:09

, you know , the Bible says that we are overcomers by

35:11

the blood of the Lamb and the Word of our testimony

35:14

. I want to say , by your story

35:16

, tell your story and

35:18

the blood of the Lamb . The combination

35:22

is why I'm on your podcast

35:24

today , doug . That's why I'm here today . The

35:26

blood of the Lamb and being able to tell my

35:29

story . I started out just a little

35:31

fall . I'll never forget the very first

35:33

time with Jonas , and then after that we went

35:35

to a counselor for five times . Five times

35:37

my husband said we need to go for help

35:39

. I fought him , I resisted

35:42

him . I said I don't want to go

35:44

. So you

35:46

know everything is scary , but you've got

35:49

to be courageous and you have

35:51

to keep moving forward toward

35:53

the light , the

35:55

darkness . Get out of the darkness as

35:57

fast as you can and begin

35:59

to look toward the light and

36:01

people that are light filled , people that

36:03

you know are followers of Christ

36:05

.

36:09

It may be the same answer , but I'm curious

36:11

. You know , obviously you lost the

36:13

unthinkable . You lost a daughter 19

36:15

months old . We were talking a little bit

36:17

before . You know , I lost my mom when I was 17

36:20

. I lost a sister a few years ago to an overdose . So

36:23

it was interesting a few years ago , nine

36:27

months after I lost my sister . Basically

36:29

, I have what I refer to as a mental breakdown , and so

36:31

what you said I reached out for help and my counselor

36:33

said something to me I thought was so interesting he

36:36

said . He said , doug , I don't think you've

36:38

ever grieved . So what do

36:40

you mean ? He's like I don't think you've grieved your mom , I don't think you've grieved your

36:42

sister . And in my mind , again , going back to the

36:44

Bible verse , it's like hey , we don't grieve like others

36:47

grieve .

36:47

I know I'll see him again one day Exactly .

36:50

And he said , doug , you can't say goodbye to something

36:52

that you've never said hello to . And

36:55

that hit me just like a ton of bricks . And he

36:57

sent me on this whole process . He actually had me go to the

36:59

grave sites of those I've lost and write letters . You

37:02

know I have four kids under seven and I can't imagine losing

37:04

a child . The grief that comes with that Do you have and

37:07

so many people listen to this have lost loved

37:09

ones and had traumatic events . Do you have any advice

37:11

in addition to what you already shared when it

37:13

just comes to grieving and getting

37:15

over the loss in our lives ?

37:18

Well , I think what you just shared , doug

37:20

is powerful and we

37:22

run from it like our

37:25

grief and pain , we actually run away from it and

37:27

I wanted to say run

37:30

towards it . What

37:33

I learned to do over time was

37:35

sit in my chair and when

37:37

I had these feelings of sadness and guilt

37:39

and shame and whatever it may have been , there

37:42

was a load of just emotions

37:46

of all kinds that I would experience after

37:48

I told my secret and eventually

37:50

I learned to sit in my chair

37:52

instead of running away from my pain

37:54

and the feelings that made me feel bad . I just

37:56

talked to somebody at a place

37:58

a couple of weeks ago where I was speaking and a

38:01

gentleman came to me and was

38:04

talking to me about my story and I said so what's your

38:06

story ? He said , well

38:08

, I can't talk about it . And

38:10

I said , wow , can you tell me why you don't

38:12

want to talk about it ? He said , well , because

38:14

if I do , then I will feel all

38:16

of the pain again . I'm

38:19

like , wow , exactly , we don't

38:21

want to feel the pain , but there is no way

38:23

to be well , unless you

38:25

tell , unless you feel the pain

38:27

of it all , you can never be better

38:29

. It's mind-blowing and

38:32

that's kind of like a . Some people

38:34

have never heard that . They

38:36

may never have heard that phrase , but you said

38:38

what I'm saying , but it's true

38:41

. You have to tell to be well

38:43

, and so I believe that

38:45

when people experience this kind of tragedy

38:47

as time goes on , like you said , nine months

38:49

later , is that what you said after ?

38:51

a year or six months ?

38:52

Yeah , nine months , nine months , that's a very short time . I'm

38:55

proud of you for doing that . I mean understanding

38:57

. I can't go on it , it's too heavy , you

39:00

can't bury it forever . And

39:02

so the tragedy people walk

39:04

through it , they keep walking to walk it

39:06

away from it , and the further they get away from it

39:08

, the more they feel like , oh

39:10

, wow , I survived . Right

39:13

, I survived , but at one

39:15

point survival is not good enough . It's

39:18

the tragedy , the trauma which

39:20

you experienced , and then the survival

39:22

. We move on and we feel like we're okay

39:24

and I see survival . As for

39:26

me , it was like wow , I

39:29

survived the death of Angie . And then

39:31

, as I got out of the abuse , I survived

39:33

, that I was so proud of myself I

39:35

survived . This is amazing . But

39:38

survival , I

39:40

picture that in my mind like you're on a raft on

39:43

the middle of the ocean and

39:45

you're on the raft , you're keeping your

39:47

head above water , but I mean

39:49

, the waves are crashing , you're

39:52

not living , you're surviving

39:54

. And so then it's

39:56

tragedy , trauma , and then it's surviving , and

39:59

then it's overcoming , and the

40:01

overcoming is Doug , what I believe

40:03

that you're beginning to feel and experience

40:05

, as you began to open up and

40:08

begin to talk about your pain . I may not be

40:10

right about that , but the overcoming

40:14

happens as we begin to talk . Yes

40:16

. And that's why I can't . You

40:18

know there's so much in my book about that and

40:21

I love what Dr Richard Jarbens

40:23

says . The Christian

40:26

psychiatrists that helped me out

40:29

of the emerged ministries in Akron , ohio

40:31

, which would be near where you are yeah

40:34

, they're still there today emerge ministries

40:37

If you need help , emerge ministries

40:39

is there for you . They do trauma

40:41

counseling , counseling about kids . But

40:44

Dr Richard Talbott , he had one

40:46

line that I love that it was he paraphrased

40:49

James 516 . He says Satan

40:51

builds his strongholds in

40:53

the secrets of our lives and

40:55

he reinforces them by

40:57

silence . Don't talk . But

41:00

when I break the silence

41:02

, when I begin to talk , I break

41:04

the stronghold . That

41:06

is , in fact , the James 516

41:12

model . Satan

41:15

builds his strongholds in the secrets

41:18

of our lives . He builds

41:20

this , he's building that secret . He's

41:22

building it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger . It becomes

41:24

a stronghold in our life . But

41:27

when I begin to talk , I break

41:29

the stronghold . And that's my

41:32

story and I'm sticking to it . Your

41:34

stronghold , it's so big in your

41:36

mind , so hard to bear , that

41:38

eventually you cannot bear

41:40

it anymore . And I just want

41:42

to encourage you whether you're 20 , 15

41:44

, 30 , a young age , don't wait

41:47

. I was almost

41:50

40 before I was able to talk

41:52

about the death of my daughter

41:54

and the abuse I think I was

41:56

actually 37 and

41:58

the abuse of my pastor , and

42:01

I was so wrecked that

42:03

it took me years to overcome . If you

42:05

can begin to live this lifestyle I

42:08

call it the lifestyle of compassion

42:10

If you can begin to live

42:12

this lifestyle every single

42:14

day , when things begin to come

42:17

at you and you're feeling overwhelmed

42:19

or you feel your stomach and knots , or you're hurting

42:21

your heart's , hurting the feelings , their real feelings

42:23

begin to pay attention to that

42:25

. And so what I do to live the overcoming

42:28

lifestyle is when I feel like I've hurt someone

42:30

and I can't just pray about it and say , father , forgive

42:32

me , I'm sorry . It lingers in my

42:34

belly or in my heart , I know . Then I

42:36

need to make an honest confession , or just when

42:38

I'm sorry , or

42:41

if they've hurt me sometimes I

42:43

can't get over it right away . Over time I

42:45

will go say to them you know what you said

42:47

to me the other day or the other week , whatever . What you

42:49

did hurt me and I just want you to know I

42:53

forgive you for hurting me . That sounds silly

42:55

, but it's a principle in

42:57

the Word of God that

42:59

keeps me free . It keeps

43:01

me in the light . I don't have secrets

43:03

anymore . I just bring them into

43:05

the light , either with somebody or with

43:07

my husband , or in prayer . That's the

43:09

lifestyle of overcoming and that's

43:11

where I live today . And listen , doug

43:13

, I have gone from the darkest of nights for years

43:16

hopeless , depressed , suicidal

43:18

to the brightest of

43:21

light . It's so big

43:23

and the more I tell my story

43:25

Doug I don't even understand this the

43:27

greater the light becomes . Wow

43:29

.

43:31

Well , thank you for sharing that . I don't think

43:33

we're going to get to the leadership , but people are saying

43:35

what does this have to do with leadership ? Everything it's like .

43:37

Oh , everything .

43:39

Yeah , do you want to say anything to that ?

43:40

I mean yes , well , I just want to say I

43:42

believe that God wants

43:45

to equip . In these days in particular , he

43:48

wants an army of people

43:50

that are overcomers , that

43:53

can help those who are

43:55

living in this survival mode , in this marketplace

43:58

, but he wants to take us to a

44:00

place of leadership , live

44:02

the overcoming lifestyle . He wants it

44:04

. It's going to take an army of us

44:06

, a whole army of soldiers

44:08

that are strong and courageous

44:11

, that can reach down to the downtrodden

44:13

and lift them up , and I feel like

44:15

that's my mission . My mission

44:18

is to the church , help people , just

44:20

to lift them up , and God needs all

44:22

of us to do that .

44:24

Yeah , and this probably be . We can

44:26

land a plane with this question . But you mentioned , you

44:28

know , even just recently , just if something's in shumbling

44:30

you're holding on forgiveness , forgive someone If

44:33

someone's been in abuse . Like how have you

44:35

? I don't know how much detail you want to go to

44:37

, but you talked about spiritual

44:40

abuse or abuse of authority , and that

44:42

happened . This happened . Unfortunately , statistics say

44:44

this happens every day . I think one , one in three

44:46

or four children are abused . Like

44:48

which is crazy . So how

44:50

, how do you deal Because I think that

44:53

I'm assuming that that's part of the fear and

44:55

telling too . If I tell , then then this person

44:57

who has authority over me , how do you , how

44:59

do how do victims deal with that ?

45:01

There's such , there's so many , there's

45:04

so many the , the , the tentacles you know to

45:06

abuse is . There's so many pieces

45:08

to it . It's so deep and so troubling and

45:11

so confusing . But you

45:13

know , as a , as a child , it's hard to deal

45:15

with abuse . I mean as a child

45:17

, but I should grow it . For me I was a grown

45:19

woman so I cannot even imagine

45:22

. But what I know is is that

45:24

the abuse

45:26

that I experienced , it

45:29

felt , and then also the

45:31

same pastor abused our oldest daughter from

45:33

all the whole time he was abusing

45:35

me he was a part of

45:38

her life as well , and I didn't know that till

45:40

she was 25 . And that was

45:42

that's a whole other story that took me . That almost

45:44

made me crash and burn

45:46

. So you know , the question becomes

45:49

how can I forgive ? How

45:52

can I forgive ? I don't . I'm going to

45:54

answer this very quickly because I know we're running out

45:56

of time , but but the most

45:59

comfort that I got as far as forgiveness

46:01

was many , many years after

46:03

my story unfolded , and it

46:05

was actually in the year 2003

46:09

. And I , I was sitting on

46:11

my chair and thinking about

46:13

forgiveness and just telling

46:15

the Lord I don't know , I don't know

46:17

. And I remember the story

46:20

of Jesus on the cross , when

46:23

, when he was dying , and he said

46:25

I know , you know what he said , but

46:28

we , I went over . I just read

46:30

this so many times that I never saw it . But

46:33

on the cross , jesus said , I

46:35

believe the weight of the world was

46:38

too much for him . He

46:40

was Jesus , he was

46:43

God in the flesh . How can you take the world

46:45

, the weight of the whole world , from

46:47

beginning of time to the end of time , upon

46:50

yourself ? And he said , father

46:52

, forgive

46:55

them , because

46:57

they don't know what they're doing . And

46:59

you know , when I read that in the

47:01

year 2003, . I

47:04

realized that sometimes things are so

47:06

hard for us as human beings to bear and

47:09

I began to pray that prayer Father

47:11

, would you

47:13

forgive him Because

47:16

he really doesn't know what he did to me and my family

47:18

? And you want Doug

47:20

, even to this day , if

47:22

I struggle with how do I forgive ? Maybe

47:25

it's something there's still trigger points in

47:27

my family , or I hear stories

47:30

, my , I

47:32

, that's my , go to prayer Father , forgive

47:35

him , for he does not know what he did . And

47:37

that was a . That was a

47:40

way of forgiveness that I experienced , that gave

47:42

me peace , no

47:44

guilt , no shame on my part , like , oh

47:46

, you have to forgive . I have . To the

47:49

best of my ability , I've

47:51

forgiven , but sometimes

47:53

, when it feels hard , even today , I just read that

47:55

prayer Father forgive , or

47:57

he doesn't know what he did . Try it yourself

48:00

, it might work , I don't know . Yeah Well , thank you for sharing that and I guess

48:03

I'll just leave this open at the end .

48:06

Is there anything else you want to leave our listeners with today , before we wrap up

48:08

?

48:10

You know , I just , I just believe that God is

48:12

bigger than all of us Even can imagine

48:14

. His , his grace goes further than

48:16

our pain . His forgiveness

48:18

is deeper than any sin , any

48:21

shame that we've borne . He is greater

48:23

than all of that and believe

48:26

that . You know , faith is believing

48:28

that God will do what he said

48:30

he would do . Whatever

48:33

God said he would do , he

48:35

will do . That's

48:37

that's who he is . So I want to encourage

48:39

your audience to just believe that

48:41

God is . He is as

48:43

good as his word and he has

48:45

promised to give you life and

48:48

to help you live an overcoming life , the

48:50

life that he died for , and that's

48:52

what he's . He's . He's

48:54

offering that to you today . Work

48:57

out your own salvation

48:59

and fear and trembling . There's a lot of work that we do in

49:02

faith . We call out to him constantly

49:04

. There's a lot of work that we do . Do

49:06

the hard work , Set yourself free

49:08

and you'll begin to live a life

49:10

that you didn't even know was possible .

49:13

Yeah well , and thank you so much for doing the hard work

49:15

yourself and allowing God to use your story

49:18

and the circumstances you've gone through to

49:20

glorify him and help other people . I'm believing

49:22

, god , that you know everyone listening to this

49:24

, those who need help or or in a similar position

49:27

, that this will be the the key to them

49:29

getting free , and so thank you for

49:31

your ministry and , of course , thank

49:33

you for for great pretzels to everyone

49:35

on the planet . My

49:37

family is extremely appreciative

49:40

. So thank you so much , and hopefully we'll get to do this

49:42

again sometime .

49:43

Awesome . Thank you for the opportunity

49:45

. God bless you and Merry Christmas to you .

49:47

Merry Christmas . Well , leader , thank you so

49:49

much for listening to my conversation with Anne . I hope that

49:51

you enjoyed it as much as I did . You can find

49:53

ways to connect with her and links to everything that we discussed

49:56

in the show notes at L3 leadershiporg

49:58

forward , slash 413 . And as

50:00

always , leader , I like to end every episode of the quote , and I'll

50:02

quote President Ronald Reagan , who said this the

50:04

greatest leader is not necessarily the one

50:06

who does the greatest things . He is the one

50:08

that gets the people to do the greatest

50:11

things . And leader leadership is all

50:13

about others , and so make sure you always remember

50:15

that . As I say at the end of every

50:17

episode , know that my wife Lauren , I love you , we believe

50:19

in you and don't quit . Keep leading

50:21

. The world desperately needs your

50:24

leadership . We'll talk to you next episode .