0:10

Over the past several days, protesters

0:12

have been gathering on college campuses

0:14

across the country, expressing

0:16

support for civilians in Gaza. Students

0:19

setting up encampments from University of North

0:22

Carolina to MIT. Harvard's

0:24

yard closed until Friday. There were

0:26

scuffles at the University of Texas.

0:28

Many of them have been camping out

0:31

at Yale for days occupying Montague Plaza.

0:34

Our colleague Melissa Corn has been following the

0:36

situation. These are

0:39

politically active, motivated, engaged

0:42

students. You're seeing

0:44

students from a range of

0:46

different advocacy backgrounds joining together

0:48

under this umbrella of

0:51

pro-Palestinian protests and calling for

0:53

a ceasefire. College

0:55

campuses are always a hotbed for

0:57

protests. How would you say that these protests

1:00

compare to things we've seen on college campuses

1:02

in the past? So,

1:04

the most direct comparison

1:07

I think people are making is

1:09

to what we saw in 1968 with anti-war

1:12

protests in terms of the

1:14

level of hostility and anger

1:17

and kind of combustible

1:20

nature of these, right? You just don't

1:22

know where it's going to turn next

1:24

or what might happen next. The

1:26

protests have intensified since last week after more

1:29

than 100 students were arrested at

1:31

Columbia University in New York, prompting

1:34

students at other institutions to join in.

1:36

There is the sense that we are

1:39

going to protest and set up encampments

1:41

in solidarity with our brethren at Columbia.

1:46

Welcome to The Journal, our show

1:48

about money, business, and power. I'm

1:51

Ryan Knudson. It's Thursday, April

1:53

25th. Thank

1:57

you. Coming

2:01

up on the show, how the

2:03

war in Gaza has campuses across

2:05

the country, turmoil. We've

2:17

all felt left out, and for

2:20

people who move to this country, that feeling lasts

2:22

more than a moment. We can

2:24

change that. Learn how it belonging

2:26

begins with us dot org. Brought to

2:28

you by the Ad Council. Pro-Palestinian

2:37

protests have been simmering on college

2:39

campuses for months. These

2:41

protesters are calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.

2:44

Many say Israel is committing

2:46

genocide. Israel has strongly denied

2:49

allegations of genocide, and

2:51

says its Gaza operations are justified after

2:53

the Hamas attack on October 7th. Some

2:56

Jewish students have criticized some of the

2:59

protesters' rhetoric as anti-Semitic. They

3:01

say it's made them feel unsafe on campus. And

3:04

this whole situation has attracted attention

3:06

from lawmakers. The House

3:08

Committee on Education and the Workforce

3:11

took an interest in this and

3:13

scheduled a hearing for early December

3:15

where they invited some university presidents

3:17

to answer for what was happening

3:20

on their campuses. So

3:22

that was the presidents of Penn,

3:25

Harvard, and MIT. Those

3:27

hearings did not go very well for those

3:29

presidents. They gave fairly

3:31

lawyerly responses to some questions that

3:34

seemed like to the public

3:36

should have been easy, yes-no answers.

3:40

An embattled president, Claudine Gay, is

3:42

set to resign imminently. Gay

3:44

was one of the Ivy League presidents

3:46

whose muted response about calls for Israeli

3:49

genocide at a congressional hearing led to

3:51

demands for her ouster. The president of

3:53

the University of Pennsylvania resigned.

3:56

The president of Columbia University,

3:58

Manu Shafiq, was a She's also supposed

4:00

to testify at that hearing. She

4:03

couldn't make it. She

4:05

would be willing to come another time. And that

4:08

other time was last week. I see. So

4:10

she came to a hearing last week

4:13

alongside two trustees from

4:16

Columbia and a law

4:19

professor who is one of the leaders

4:21

of the anti-Semitism task force on campus.

4:25

During her testimony, Shafik took a

4:27

stronger stance. Shafik

4:29

strives to be a community free

4:31

of discrimination and hate in all

4:33

its forms. And we

4:35

condemn the anti-Semitism that is so

4:37

pervasive today. Anti-Semitism

4:40

has no place on our campus. And

4:42

I am personally committed to doing everything

4:44

I can to confront it directly. She

4:47

said the school beefed up security,

4:50

restricted outside visitors, and suspended or

4:52

disciplined students and faculty who had

4:54

violated its policies. Shafik

4:56

was not seen as bumbling her

4:59

performance the way that the prior

5:01

presidents did. But

5:04

her responses were not exactly cheered

5:06

by all corners. Why

5:09

not? What kinds of things did she say that got

5:12

criticism? Well,

5:14

there was a sense that her

5:16

responses, that her answers didn't

5:20

give enough respect to this

5:22

core tenet of academic freedom,

5:24

that she indicated to the

5:26

House committee that harsher

5:29

actions perhaps should be taken against

5:31

some people for what they've said.

5:34

Faculty who make remarks that cross the

5:36

line in terms of anti-Semitism, there

5:39

will be consequences. As

5:41

Shafik was preparing to testify, some Columbia

5:43

students decided to seize the moment and

5:45

scale up their protests by setting up

5:48

sleeping bags and tents on campus. The

5:52

visual juxtaposition here is really interesting. There

5:54

have kind of a main quad, a

5:56

main lawn, and one half of

5:58

it was being prepared for graduation for commencement

6:01

ceremony where they're putting a new

6:03

turf on until then put all

6:05

the folding chairs out and it's

6:07

pristine, exactly what you would expect

6:09

of an Ivy League institution ahead of a major

6:11

public event. Across a

6:14

little brick walkway is the

6:16

encampment with many tents

6:18

and Palestinian flags and handwritten

6:20

posters and signs. They're

6:23

messy, they're lived in. You know

6:25

people are camping out on central

6:28

lawns around campus. One

6:30

of the main things students are asking for has

6:32

to do with Columbia's 13 billion

6:35

dollar endowment. The fund

6:37

is invested in all kinds of things, everything

6:39

from stocks and bonds to hedge funds and

6:42

private equity. The students

6:44

say they want the university to disclose

6:46

its financial holdings and divest from companies

6:48

that do business with Israel. So

6:51

that includes tech companies, that

6:53

includes weapons manufacturers, depending

6:55

on how comprehensive you

6:58

want the divestment to go, it can go pretty far. For instance,

7:01

the students are asking Columbia to

7:03

sell its investments in Amazon, Microsoft

7:05

and Alphabet, Google's parent company, which

7:08

they say provide cloud services to the Israeli

7:10

government and military. Columbia

7:13

has divested from other things in

7:15

the past like tobacco, private prisons

7:17

and South African companies during its

7:19

apartheid. So the students say

7:21

the university can divest from Israel as well.

7:28

The university has said there

7:30

isn't broad

7:33

agreement on what

7:35

to do about these particular investments, so

7:37

at this point they are not planning to divest.

7:40

And a lot of them have said

7:42

it's not so easy, we're not going

7:44

to walk away from the potential financial

7:46

benefit of investing in these companies because

7:48

ultimately they're investing for their endowments and

7:51

the goal of an endowment is to

7:53

collect and maintain a fund to

7:55

support the university in perpetuity. Is that

7:58

even really possible? to just

8:01

divest very specifically out

8:03

of businesses that

8:05

have anything to do with Israel? Again, it

8:07

depends how you're defining a business having something to do

8:10

with Israel. Is it a

8:12

consumer goods company that happens to sell

8:14

deodorant in a convenience store in Israel?

8:16

Is it a tech company that has

8:18

a manufacturing plant? Is it an

8:22

arms manufacturer? Yes, they

8:25

could divest from individual companies,

8:27

but at what

8:29

point is every company somehow

8:31

have connections

8:33

to a particular country? And

8:36

I also suspect that these endowments often

8:38

have investments in mutual funds, which have lots

8:40

of things in them, and you would have

8:42

to pull out of the entire fund if

8:45

there happened to be one company in that

8:47

fund. Right. If you have a broad-based

8:49

S&P 500 fund, then yeah, you're going

8:52

to touch on some of these companies.

8:56

Divestment is not their only demand,

8:58

though. They also want the university to

9:00

call for a ceasefire. What

9:02

has Columbia said about that? The

9:05

question about demanding a ceasefire,

9:07

you know, administrators say, I'm

9:09

not sure what that would

9:12

do. Right. I, as a

9:14

university president, cannot actually

9:16

dictate politics in the Middle East.

9:19

Soon after the encampment appeared, the university

9:21

told all the students there that they

9:23

were suspended and needed to leave immediately.

9:26

Shafik, Columbia's president, said the encampment

9:29

raised safety concerns and disrupted life

9:31

on campus. She then

9:33

asked the New York City Police Department to

9:36

remove the protesters, who she said were now

9:38

trespassing. So

9:42

the police had been there and kind of hovering for a

9:44

while and then finally got the go-ahead to

9:46

clear through and they had the plastic zip

9:48

ties and arrested a number of people. But

9:51

the protesters say, you know, we were peaceful

9:53

the whole time. There was

9:55

no need to come and do this to us. react

10:00

to these arrests. They were

10:02

galvanized by them. I think

10:04

if the police had not come onto campus and

10:06

had not conducted these arrests, we

10:09

would not have seen the mobilization

10:12

on other campuses at the pace we

10:14

saw. We've

10:24

all felt left out. And

10:26

for people who moved to this country, that feeling

10:29

lasts more than a moment. We

10:31

can change that. Learn how

10:33

at thelonglingbeginswithus.org. Brought

10:35

to you by the Ad Council. After

10:44

the police arrested more than 100 students

10:46

at Columbia, protests have been spreading to

10:48

other campuses around the country, followed

10:51

in some cases by police crackdowns. We've

10:59

had people arrested at University of

11:01

Minnesota, Twin Cities. We've had people arrested

11:03

at Yale. And throughout the

11:05

fall and winter, we've had people arrested at

11:08

Pomona and Brown and UMass. The

11:13

students are standing their ground when they

11:15

feel they should be. And

11:17

they are facing

11:19

some consequences for it. Have

11:21

we seen any violent confrontations breakout

11:24

among students? There haven't

11:26

been massive fistfights

11:28

leading to medical need for dozens

11:31

of people or anything like that.

11:34

There have been some pretty

11:36

specific incidents or

11:38

allegations of attacks and violence.

11:41

So when schools talk about safety

11:43

concerns, what are they referring to

11:45

then? So there's a

11:47

difference between being beaten up and

11:50

feeling like there is an imminent threat of

11:52

being beaten up. And I think

11:54

that's where some of this gets a little bit

11:56

hard for the schools to explain that an

11:59

imminent. threat of violence is

12:01

a safety concern. And if somebody feels

12:03

the threat of violence and

12:06

doesn't feel comfortable on campus, then that

12:08

is something that they as a university

12:11

need to address and try

12:13

to head off. And that's

12:15

kind of the position we're in now where you've got

12:17

a number of Jewish students saying they

12:19

don't feel comfortable on campus. They don't feel

12:22

comfortable walking through these quads where there are call

12:25

and response chants of from the

12:27

river to the sea and go

12:29

home Zionists and things like that.

12:32

And there's just a sense of threat

12:35

and hostility and they don't know if

12:37

or when it could escalate further. Chance

12:40

the many Jewish people consider to be racist. Right,

12:43

that they consider to be anti-Semitic, that from the river

12:45

to the sea, the interpretation

12:47

is that the

12:49

goal is to wipe Israel off the map. Have

12:53

any pro-Palestinian students expressed

12:55

similar concerns about

12:57

feeling unsafe? Yeah,

12:59

so that's one of the interesting things

13:01

I've heard from some students who participated

13:03

in some of these more recent demonstrations

13:05

and set up camp on the

13:07

lawn and said, for the first time in

13:10

six months, I feel like I can speak

13:12

my mind and be in this

13:15

supportive safe community of like-minded

13:18

people. And

13:20

I didn't feel that safety before. I didn't

13:22

feel like my views were welcome on

13:25

campus until now. So,

13:28

yeah, the concern about feeling welcome goes

13:31

both ways and has for a very long

13:33

time. At Columbia, students

13:36

and members of the administration have been negotiating

13:38

to bring an end to the encampments. A

13:41

couple days ago, the students agreed to start

13:43

taking the tents down, though many are still

13:45

up. Have

13:48

universities had to change anything about how they're operating right

13:50

now? Will all these protests are going on? A

13:53

bit. So, Harvard Yard has

13:55

closed this week to the public, which is something that doesn't happen

13:57

very often, but they're kind of trying to get a chance to

13:59

do that. to minimize the chance of

14:01

disruption. We've had some schools shut down

14:03

for a day or two for safety

14:05

concerns. And Columbia itself,

14:08

Monday they had classes virtually.

14:10

And then they announced that

14:12

for the rest of the semester, students

14:15

can attend classes in person or

14:17

online before the finals

14:19

begin. So yeah, it's affecting

14:21

the day-to-day of campus activity,

14:23

of how students go about their

14:26

days, how faculty go about their days. And

14:29

as we get toward the end of the

14:31

semester, the administrators really have a close eye

14:33

toward commencement and what might be in store

14:35

for them there. It sounds like

14:37

universities are expecting these protests to last

14:39

for a while if they're already thinking

14:41

about commencement. They are

14:43

not expecting everyone to smile and clap

14:46

politely for the entire commencement, no matter

14:48

what happens between now and then. They're

14:51

giving warnings and kind of trying to

14:53

remind participants, this is the difference between

14:56

a protest and a disruption. This is

14:58

the difference between a legal protest and

15:00

something that goes over the line to

15:02

being inappropriate or violent or hostile

15:04

or against our rules. And

15:07

we will allow the former and

15:09

we will step in for the latter. So

15:11

as schools get closer to graduation, to the

15:14

commencement ceremonies in the next few weeks, we're

15:17

seeing a lot of those types of stern reminders.

15:20

You're not going to be allowed to bring

15:22

flags and banners into the commencement ceremony. We

15:25

respect your right to hiss and

15:27

boo. But if

15:29

we can't proceed with the ceremony at some point,

15:32

we will step in and ask you to leave,

15:34

those sorts of things. Shafik

15:36

said in a campus update earlier

15:38

this week that she wanted students

15:40

to have a peaceful and in-person

15:42

graduation, writing that she was, quote, deeply

15:44

sensitive to the fact that graduating seniors

15:46

spent their first year attending Columbia remotely.

15:53

And is there a chance in the meantime

15:55

that any of these

15:57

universities or Columbia will give a chance to

15:59

get a chance to get a chance? into some of these protesters'

16:01

demands? It's hard to say. Some

16:04

of these schools have been pretty explicit

16:06

that they do not plan to divest,

16:09

or they do not plan

16:11

to call for a ceasefire, or it is

16:13

not their role as an institutional leader to

16:15

do so. Schools

16:18

may very well rethink

16:20

some of their disciplinary policies or how

16:22

they handle the protesters

16:26

and that might look different at every school. But

16:29

in terms of fully capitulating

16:31

to every demand by the protesters,

16:34

I don't see that happening in part

16:36

because of the precedent that would set for future

16:39

protests on campuses. It

16:41

feels just like a very tough situation,

16:44

especially with the temperature so

16:46

high on all

16:49

sides. Yeah, the temperature is very

16:51

high. It is, I

16:53

mean, I used that word combustible before, right? We

16:55

don't know where this is going to go next. And oftentimes

16:58

when you have a news story, you don't know where it's

17:00

going to go next. And here, we don't

17:02

even know what campus it's going to be next. And

17:05

just how heated things will get before

17:08

they calm down again. And

17:12

deeply unsettling to administrators

17:14

and students and faculty

17:17

and their families. That's

17:28

all for today, Thursday, April

17:31

20th. The

17:35

journal is a co-production of Spotify and the Wall

17:38

Street Journal. Additional reporting and

17:40

services by Matt Marnam, Alex Melkin, Julie

17:42

Chung, and Alan Rodriguez of The New

17:44

South. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.