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today on the show. Hostage Negotiator Scott

1:30

Walker Scott served as a Scotland Yard

1:32

Detective for sixteen years, investigating all kinds

1:34

of serious and organised. Crime including kidnappings

1:37

and terrorism. He also deployed overseas is

1:39

part of a military intelligence interrogation team

1:41

to gather intel on high value targets.

1:43

Now, he specializes in kidnap for ransom

1:45

negotiations and resolving the other similar perils

1:47

all over the world. So if you

1:50

get now by pirates in Somalia or

1:52

drug dealers in Ireland or whatever, Scott,

1:54

your guy and I know we've done

1:56

a few shows on kidnapping and hostage

1:58

negotiation in the past. But. Somehow this

2:00

just doesn't get old because it's so unusual it

2:03

says you need job that has nuances. Nice country

2:05

in which is done on just a quick note.

2:07

we recorded this a few months back to some

2:09

of the Hamas hostage info. Maybe way out of

2:11

date, but of course the rest of this is

2:14

still fully standing up quite well. For here we

2:16

go with got water and. More

2:20

people have been to the Iss, the space

2:22

station than have your job as. A

2:24

claim most. People. Can't make. I mean

2:26

even I guess astronauts right get make

2:28

that claim He absolutely I'm not sure.

2:31

Friends accurate, not pre Sundays I was

2:33

Canada has the added may always enough.

2:35

One of these differences on day one

2:37

of the tell me what's known as

2:39

a crisis response consultant or cannot negotiate

2:41

her the. Table. We caught

2:43

it say. More. People have been

2:45

to space station and do what you did

2:47

full time so Miles said he sounded good.

2:49

Of the times that does sound good idea.

2:51

I think it's funny though. It's just like

2:53

added says something they say, but it makes

2:55

sense, right? I mean, there are quite a

2:57

few astronauts from every country that has a

2:59

space program that have been to the Iss

3:01

and probably some even. I don't have a.

3:04

Full on space program of their own and

3:06

I don't know how many kidnap hostage negotiators

3:08

you need on a police force. may be

3:11

why a as a how many do you

3:13

need on a police force and a major

3:15

city like New York or London like to

3:17

in the law enforcement teams around the world

3:20

little reasonable size teams. But. In

3:22

terms of in the private sector outside

3:24

of law enforcement. You've. Got may

3:26

be a dozen twenty insurance companies

3:28

they gave moved into not for

3:30

and some stuff. And it's

3:32

homes of the response consultant city

3:34

ghostwriters. You're probably not

3:37

looking at more than twenty.

3:39

Five. Maybe twenty twenty five.

3:41

He. Do. It you know full time

3:43

tear one of the the breadth and depth of

3:45

experience. Of day we many cases

3:47

many pause the world. And site

3:49

is probably pretty accurate Sense Yes,

3:52

that's interesting because he would think

3:54

how many people are getting kidnapped

3:56

in London or any major city

3:58

in the West. In. Any. Given

4:00

month you have any idea the i

4:02

mean you must in some what does

4:04

into place A was using about one

4:07

a week so we get safe really

4:09

long fifty see a lender that we

4:11

knew about that would be reported read

4:13

I usually that B B school of

4:16

battle Bad C B criminal had nothing

4:18

other criminals. And in that comes

4:20

with front office of a Playstation or flags out a

4:22

patrol car. And. Go to my brother,

4:24

my son, my cousin what I was

4:27

just been taken I would these to

4:29

we knew what to do the right

4:31

here like are you are the leaders

4:33

of an Albanian mother in the neighborhood

4:35

Five hour I buddy But in terms

4:37

of worldwide obviously the Sig is a

4:39

pretty are unclear because. The. Countries where

4:42

this takes place and enough the

4:44

government's don't want to advertise a

4:46

Saturday the kidnapping said from of

4:48

the region. But. As tens

4:50

of thousands of kidnappings a

4:52

year. Worldwide. Most of

4:54

which will. Be. Like for nationals

4:56

and occasionally they'll be the trans national of

4:58

experts who moved luck. If someone's in Syria

5:00

and they're an aid worker and they get

5:02

kidnapped, they're all equally horrible. The As A:

5:05

That's even more scary, right? Because you're being

5:07

kidnapped and serious. But that's not as surprising

5:09

as some of the stuff that I was

5:11

reading in your book where. He. Had

5:13

somebody in London getting kidnapped and

5:15

you think while and this isn't

5:17

just like kidnapped, this is kidnapped

5:19

for ransom. By. A criminal group.

5:21

This isn't like a parent kidnapping a child

5:23

or something along those lines. Really good jilted

5:25

lover like you're staying with me. And they

5:27

kidnapped that person, right? This is like they

5:30

kidnapped the percent of men a call and

5:32

they say I need a hundred thousand dollars

5:34

I'm to send you singers until I get

5:36

that money. That's a very specific crime. In

5:38

the fact that there are two of those

5:40

every week is like alarming. That's it. Alarmingly

5:42

large number. I think it is that when

5:44

you think about. It, it's not necessarily.

5:46

The amounts of money to spend

5:49

demanded a ransom that would indicate

5:51

the severity of the threat. To

5:53

the risk that to the hostage in fact. Symbol.

5:56

Of most barbaric. Kidnappings,

5:59

In treatment of. The does it pay you for? Hundreds.

6:02

Of pounds of leaving. And the thousand

6:04

real. Where is the multimillion ransoms your

6:06

read about? Actually the hostages are treated

6:08

pretty well, almost like an official guest

6:10

because they sit as a business. They'll

6:12

say riot This twins of the spectrum

6:14

left right and also I would imagine

6:16

you don't want your hostage getting sick.

6:18

If they're going to be worth five

6:20

million dollars, you know you want them

6:22

like in a decent mental state I

6:24

would suppose of the the out self

6:26

harming you want them healthy, you don't

6:28

want them to get some sort of

6:30

weird and sex in or disease. And ministers

6:32

your meal ticket. But I guess yeah if

6:34

you're a thug and you're like I want

6:36

to thousand pounds. For. This guy.

6:39

You're feeding him whatever food you don't

6:41

want after you're done eating it, and

6:43

if it doesn't smell right, it's not

6:45

your problem. He is in a basement

6:47

for three months. I I can imagine

6:49

the circumstances are quite different fans at

6:51

the Lorenzo that scale they're probably likely

6:54

to torture own. Misread. The

6:56

hostages were is out of all the

6:58

cases I doubt ways. I'd

7:00

far rather deal with a

7:02

festival organized. Criminal. Gang

7:05

or network. Who took

7:07

a seriously? And he was

7:09

in their interest to look after the hostages

7:11

as much as possible. Because.

7:13

My job as a response consultant sick

7:15

a private sector. Was. To

7:18

bring about lots of discipline

7:20

and com of instability a

7:22

money's their expectations of everybody

7:24

involved. And if we could deal

7:27

with a group of professionals, they got this.

7:29

They knew how this works. And

7:31

the deal was will pay you

7:33

an appropriate amount of money. And

7:36

you're guaranteed to save the time to release

7:38

the hostages. And that's it. So.

7:40

That dumber they are. The harder they are

7:42

to work with because they don't know what

7:44

they don't know and there They think they're

7:47

making the rules when really it seems like

7:49

the rules are sort of established and you're

7:51

negotiating with so professional criminal gangs like. Here's

7:53

what happens. we kidnap and we call this

7:55

guy with God Dance for ninety days. They'd

7:57

make small incremental adjustments. We finally get are

8:00

saying we leave the guy in a corner,

8:02

this and and they give us our bag

8:04

or wherever whereas the young guys are like

8:06

jittery and a high on meth in wondering

8:08

when they're going to get paid and upset

8:11

all the time. Is that accurate? Absolutely Yes.

8:13

Hundred percent it's the unpredictability. Don't know you've

8:15

spoken about this in previous podcasts around, but

8:17

see that is express kidnaps. You know where

8:19

it's games to the a tear, will get

8:21

to draw some money what homes after midnight

8:24

and try again as a kid. Us Fiber

8:26

when the the unpredictability. when there's alcohol or

8:28

drugs involved, it's quite scary to. Be honest. Yeah.

8:31

That's interesting. I have experienced express kidnapped have

8:33

any if you know that that's all it

8:35

is. It's way less scary but the promise

8:37

you don't in and also when the person

8:39

who's driving around is on their fifth pill

8:41

of whatever it is and like drinking hard

8:43

liquor in the front seat it starts to

8:45

get really concerning really quickly. Even if is

8:47

three o'clock in the morning your card stops

8:49

working like they're still prove you don't know

8:51

what they're going to do after that. So

8:53

I would imagine that when people as he

8:55

what you do. One hundred percent

8:57

of the time it results in a conversation.

9:00

it does which is why sometimes the Pentagon

9:02

her I'm talking table to peddle actually how

9:04

introduce myself yeah as wondered about that. Would.

9:07

Always say when I meet somebody at

9:09

a party or what in a social

9:11

business setting. It's. Hard wanted

9:13

to be because the night to the

9:15

work I've done is to be curious about

9:17

them some the what is normally yeah you

9:20

know asking questions already trying to. Dig.

9:22

Into you know what makes his person takes

9:24

but what is your what inevitably it will

9:27

come round to. Of but

9:29

you've got some exciting stories. Yeah, and

9:31

I have to kind of disappoint them.

9:33

Site: Is the case that been

9:36

involved in of.really exciting yeah and challenging

9:38

I can some he roamed news because

9:40

if it's okay well good for selecting

9:43

the move is. Actually, We've

9:45

missed a trick so when so was going to

9:47

get her fear that totally makes sense and I

9:49

also put completely familiar with the idea that it's

9:51

hard wired and do you to start asking questions

9:53

my wife will tell me. Is asking

9:55

too much at parties as people ask me

9:58

questions and I said or if I. Them

10:00

talking. She's like you're asking too many questions

10:02

because people stop talking And you know this

10:04

right. They'll stop talking if you're really

10:06

controlling a conversation by asking questions and engage

10:09

with the other person. People to stop as

10:11

you do in a good job and it's

10:13

interesting. And when all the attention is on

10:16

you, it can be a little awkward

10:18

when it's not supposed we'd like. maybe it's

10:20

not supposed to be that way at that

10:22

particular social engagements. So yeah, I I'm quite

10:24

familiar with that, and I've started introducing myself

10:27

differently. You must have that problem times

10:29

ten, because. Podcast your as a

10:31

fifty fifty coin fled to is whether

10:33

or not of republicans As if hostage

10:35

negotiator I think you probably have more

10:37

like and ninety eight percent chance of

10:39

having somebody like what saying right? Especially.

10:41

Given that like you said, more people

10:44

have been to the space station than

10:46

have your job regardless of whether.that's complete

10:48

bullshit made up by here Supervisor for

10:50

your trainer you mentioned you are working

10:52

on or a friend is working on

10:54

a case where a drug dealer had

10:56

been kidnapped by a rival Albania gangly.

10:58

The bad or bad stuff that fermented

11:00

and that sounds exciting. The I gotta

11:02

as had no be as is it

11:04

somehow slightly less rewarding to negotiate the

11:06

release of a criminal kidnapped by other

11:08

criminals as opposed to an innocent civilian

11:10

and a hostage situation. As

11:12

a detective's it was a

11:15

sense of professional pride. The

11:18

we were getting get the hostages

11:20

by. Irrespective is that

11:22

even more so because of they were

11:24

at their a criminal themselves because you

11:26

to been so easy to get to

11:29

know what. Sort. Of vs through

11:31

these guys support on themselves. who really cares

11:33

if it's warm as bagged on the street

11:35

but then when you sit down with their

11:38

families as a was in that particular case

11:40

you in the kitchen in the apartment. And

11:43

you got the mom says absolutely losing

11:45

a motion the. The kidnappers

11:47

is setting three torch videos of their

11:49

son. Or you say to know what. Actually

11:52

on T was human beings here.

11:54

I can't afford to bring judgment.

11:56

And becoming Judge, jury, and Executioner

11:58

so to speak. In this

12:00

I'm just gonna bring the humanity of you

12:03

know what? I'm gonna let some because worry

12:05

about the com around the someone to them

12:07

are saying yeah, get these people back and

12:10

seat is a sense of professional pride to

12:12

do that. Irrespective who were talking about here

12:14

that makes sense I'm at some level. You

12:16

are also doing this for. The

12:18

parents re like you said, you're talking with somebody,

12:21

his mom or your sit at the kitchen table.

12:23

Sees. A hard immigrant, her son turned

12:25

out to be a Pos. You know, whatever

12:28

a level of culpability parenting has in that

12:30

is not really your position to food judge.

12:32

Yeah, I could see that I would almost

12:34

have to focus on the parents because it

12:36

would be tough to be like. So this

12:38

guy's murdered a bunch of people. he's a

12:40

drug dealer, he last girlfriend that he had

12:43

vanished under mysterious circumstances and you want me

12:45

to get him away from these other guys

12:47

were like may be the same kind of

12:49

human garbage. I had almost have to just

12:51

focus on the parents only. it's really tough.

12:54

It. Would be tough for me to care but I

12:56

get maybe that's why you have that job and

12:58

I don't cause of the professionalism has it from.

13:00

Like he said, the karma, the situation, or whatever

13:02

I've heard you say, you're always negotiating and I

13:05

wonder what you mean by that. Does that mean

13:07

like nonverbal and verbal communication? What are you aiming

13:09

out with? That. He. Can mean

13:11

that brought him an easy good

13:13

at what is a negotiation. Negotiation

13:15

is a conversation with the purpose.

13:18

Is. Were you looking see may be

13:20

influence or persuade but ultimately it's

13:22

when you looking to bring about

13:24

some kind of cooperation club or

13:26

a son. And he stop and think.

13:28

About it You don't know all

13:30

day long with your kids, with

13:33

your spouse so your friends or

13:35

your coworkers. Or even industry to

13:37

the store. C. C C

13:39

Life is one big negotiation where

13:41

the ultimate outcome is gonna be

13:44

cooperation and collaboration. As he

13:46

starts or protests. In. A

13:48

Better Way It ends as opposed

13:50

to. Protect Me Now A buddy shouting

13:52

no one's listening in the well we've already got

13:54

to go social media and a what? He's looking

13:56

to prove that they're right under the person is

13:59

wrongs. Were. There's you. What we need is

14:01

Paypal. System may be less of a better.

14:03

Approach it as a negotiation

14:06

goes. What? Made me understand what's.

14:08

Going on for this person wants their map

14:10

pool most of the world that believe how

14:12

they interpret to get. Let. Me: try

14:14

demonstrate an understanding of it or less come

14:16

to some kind of solution where. We.

14:18

May. Disagree agreeably.

14:21

Bubble. Boy feel heard in the process. In

14:24

the book you describe validating the criminal

14:26

or validating the targets model of the

14:28

world. What does that mean exactly? Like

14:31

capable of means is. if I

14:33

start again bringing some judgements, Around

14:36

and their views that beliefs about

14:38

how they see things. As

14:41

can Elite even if I'm in places

14:43

gonna literati. my conversation the words in

14:45

the tone. Sites. Such as

14:47

the T. Suspend. That judgment suspend

14:49

were an ego. And

14:52

articulate. I. Can this is how

14:54

you see things? And sixty. Now and. Then.

14:56

I say the Middle East where one

14:58

of the challenges is that neither side.

15:01

Is recognizing old verbalizing an understanding

15:03

of where did the side is

15:05

coming from? A Nice

15:07

the first step. To. Bringing

15:10

about establishing trust, Which.

15:13

Actually, counter intuitively. Is.

15:15

The number one factor as to whether

15:17

I kidnappings gets resolved or not the

15:20

app is this isn't a little surprised

15:22

when you think it's the most are

15:24

regulated ungoverned industry in the world. The

15:26

most her wind the supply chain Murphy's

15:28

Law is alive and well. it's he

15:31

can go wrong. It will go wrong.

15:34

Yet. The only thing that guarantees a.

15:36

Said ninety three percent success rate is

15:38

trust. Trust them. both sides trust that

15:41

we're not going to ambush or try

15:43

and. Interdict. The kidnappers.

15:46

Unlike was if we paid Murray's Run money

15:48

they're gonna release the hostages say from well

15:50

the trust thing is really so I know

15:52

somebody is working on the current Israel Palestine

15:54

situation hostage negotiations and that one of the

15:56

big problems is that night the side trust

15:58

each other in part because when I want

16:01

to get to and have we done this

16:03

for a one side or be like okay

16:05

here's this was the other side like eyes

16:07

bleed all. So we're not going to

16:09

be that person anymore and it's I will wait.

16:11

Are they safe? What? Yeah. Well can we send

16:13

in the Red Cross and of look at them

16:15

know? Okay now I don't believe you. You change

16:17

the list. Why? Are you giving us

16:19

any these young women and it's it's like a

16:21

whole thing. they're just fear the worst in it's

16:24

like man this is so non productive because especially

16:26

in this kind of situation I'm in the process

16:28

kind of like the only thing you have is

16:30

the last time we did this they performed in

16:32

it went off. Without. A his. That's

16:35

like the only thing you have, especially when there's no

16:37

money. Involved. I would imagine it's

16:39

even harder because. Now. You can't

16:41

motivate them with cash. It's.

16:43

Just for us it is a dummy

16:45

for just taken a step back out

16:48

of that particular. Heidi

16:50

new ones highly fragile

16:52

situation. You gotta

16:54

be able to establish a

16:57

trusted. Open. Means of

16:59

communication. On it up six or

17:01

Taste. The Tories have done a good job there,

17:03

but just generally speaking, you need to be able

17:05

to know. The. Person I'm speaking

17:07

to. A. We've established proof of

17:10

lives, but I shall we? To establish

17:12

a proof of possessing, you need to

17:14

prove. That you're not just some. Voice

17:17

crack years just as up and so hear about

17:19

this and have gone the phone so as we

17:21

as need to know. The. You have

17:23

control over them. And that

17:25

you got a for a three if

17:27

we continue with this negotiation. On

17:30

the other ways we can. Demonstrate.

17:32

Trust on our side as well. It's innate. Are

17:34

we gonna pick up the phone? When.

17:36

We say we going to pick up the phone. Are

17:39

we going to do a bit by

17:41

offerings? Be no an increased off and

17:43

perhaps. But. This applies to. Day.

17:46

To day stuff and business in life. Do.

17:48

You follow through. What use are you

17:50

gonna do either? That again is how

17:52

can I demonstrate trust with this other

17:54

person but sick of this is a

17:56

more powerful. Is if you

17:58

disagree. If Europe. The end of the

18:01

argument? If you can demonstrate that and the

18:03

validation, peace will be around. well. Is.

18:05

It ok for just share was things you out right

18:07

now Jordan was we were you over the stale. Boom!

18:09

Boom boom boom and then. We'll. Go

18:11

from there. It. Seems like with the and

18:13

again I did not plan to talk about the salami.

18:16

Formulate my thoughts here. It seems like with the Israel

18:18

Palestine something with a guitar easy, the trusted third party

18:20

of Qatar is kind of the key. You're right because

18:22

the other two sides, they don't trust each other at

18:24

all. So. You really need this bridge

18:26

where they just refuse to lie to each

18:29

side or they refuse to let. People.

18:31

Get away with nonsense, right?

18:33

because otherwise. They're function as

18:35

you. what their fox it doesn't It doesn't

18:37

work right. See need? like you know got

18:39

referees as that's not fair that you change

18:41

the list, get the list rate. If

18:43

you do this than later, if they can change something else,

18:45

you want them to change something like you need somebody like

18:47

that so that they're not just screaming at each other. Over.

18:50

A phone line or shooting at each other

18:52

instead of trading hostages. It's such

18:54

a mess I see. If you done

18:57

media appearances about this particular situation, it

18:59

seems like it so relevant now. Yeah,

19:01

absolutely forty. Forty to fifty or one.

19:03

He says radio size and. Cnn

19:05

and A B C and all across the

19:07

globe really have much much cringes I can

19:10

think of have been a more they signs

19:12

and because it but again just don't that

19:14

is interesting. As watching why

19:16

was I doing get a was

19:18

to provide context that insight into

19:20

challenging situation Hugs Three people can

19:22

get a great understanding of what

19:24

is going down from the negotiation.

19:27

But. Also was bringing the principles.

19:30

Of this column you standard normal

19:32

chrome quote kidnappings and you get

19:34

out there. Were. It's

19:36

about bringing some emotional self regulation.

19:39

It's about demonstrating. Go trying your

19:41

best to understand more is going

19:43

on from another person's perspective, and

19:46

try to bring about some kind

19:48

of cooperation. Club rice And as

19:50

I mentioned, And this was pro

19:52

for example of i actually. Do. My

19:54

best The wanna do that? It's. The

19:56

old seek to understand before being

19:58

understood principal from. It absolutely yeah not

20:00

always say that you in in the book of

20:03

what about that? First of all it's not about

20:05

you. And. Second relief, you

20:07

can approach any kind of

20:09

seated challenge ego, difficult conversation,

20:12

negotiation, Hate on a to

20:14

understand. More. Makes this person take

20:16

why do they do what they do. I

20:19

call them fluid somebody unless I know what

20:21

already influences them right Sir, Somebody who's motivated

20:23

by cast is not going to be going

20:26

to the same strategy as somebody who's of

20:28

religious fanatic and thinks that if they get

20:30

blown up they're going to go to were

20:32

of paradise or whatever. Either. Way

20:34

Rights A Yeah, you need a totally

20:36

different approach. I would imagine to

20:39

some elegant exactly Yeah, tell me about

20:41

his brother who wanted to negotiate his

20:43

C O brothers ransom this guy. Sort.

20:45

Of blue it tells would happen.

20:47

Absolutely. Been going on for a

20:49

while. High net worth family and

20:51

younger brother. see his mind. a

20:54

big brother's been tightened. Seed.

20:56

Ransom Demand and he thinks this is

20:58

my moment, my time to shine and

21:00

does his best. Or worst

21:02

try sleep me guy say he wasn't

21:04

listening to our our advice which was

21:06

the same. ready to cut a resort

21:09

and the. To. Lead the time

21:11

he went on for. It highlighted

21:13

have so many t. Learnings,

21:16

And take ways that a So plate will

21:18

hear. Around you gotta be able

21:20

to manage emotions. As a said just

21:22

now. It's about being able

21:24

to get into some kind of routine

21:27

or rhythm with these things. He com

21:29

got these eighteen hours a day. First.

21:32

Three Six weeks to months. Four

21:34

months without having some kind of

21:36

pay back on that. And

21:38

it was around. Actually been able

21:40

to bring of bed discipline and

21:42

control and com to the proceedings

21:44

because he is driven by his

21:46

emotions. Actually one day to route

21:48

to the was tired. He wasn't

21:50

using the clean Thanks after what we like to do

21:52

it for the a clean fi were the only people.

21:55

On. The planet. From know that

21:57

number of us. And the

21:59

kidnappers. And so every message,

22:01

every text message, every want sap

22:04

email notification he thought it

22:06

was. A message from the kidnappers

22:08

whose brother and so do you know

22:10

not sleeping and already thought of stuff

22:12

and then he just lays it one

22:14

day and I see threatens the kidnappers

22:16

that is gonna hunt them down and

22:18

kill them middle of us that we

22:20

the pleasure of kidnappers were false modern

22:22

I don't see read the playbook care

22:24

and the super cool the went know

22:26

we're going to kill him and that's

22:28

it and I hung up. And

22:30

they didn't hear anything. Six. Months.

22:34

Wow as a team alleging that

22:36

the meal times round that kitchen

22:38

table love. with a pretty

22:40

good brother. Ah, games. Over

22:42

the next couple of months we've managed

22:44

to. Get. Another family member, he

22:47

was willing to gonna take the advice

22:49

and guidance. To. Step in and

22:51

eventually. In six months later, they

22:53

reengage him when he comes out. That

22:56

is Oh my yes, those are smart play

22:58

from the kidnappers, right? Because they know that

23:00

every day's gonna be miserable and they know

23:02

that every one of the families gonna be

23:05

like you're an idiot. Why did you do

23:07

that? If you got my son killed and

23:09

disowning you every single. Day. So

23:11

when they call again it's just like tell

23:13

us what you want, will do anything now

23:15

absolutely And a nice you the kidnappers. I've

23:18

got a great tool kit when you think

23:20

about it and eight and deployed all these

23:22

psychological tools. To extract as

23:24

much. Money. From the other

23:26

side. Was bring it up

23:28

as much fear was possible and

23:31

they'll do this through threats. Most

23:33

executions. But. The most powerful one.

23:36

A. Silence. When. They

23:38

go quiet. They can just do that

23:40

at their leisure. He has such

23:42

a powerful negative impact from the family

23:44

on the complete because we don't know

23:47

what's going on, particularly this comes. Off.

23:49

Terrorist threat this be made by them. But.

23:52

It. but we can do it.

23:54

Responses Beloved kids. We. Don't

23:56

reward bad behavior to start. you wouldn't

23:59

do the business. The Guy education. And

24:01

so we can play around game at

24:04

that. Whereas you wouldn't don't have any

24:06

more money, we can even go be

24:08

silent ourselves. We. Want to reward

24:10

good behavior? And. I should try

24:12

get back on to that. even kills as lots

24:14

and lots of the learning from that. Yeah, so

24:16

it's a mind game, right? They'll keep somebody for

24:19

months with no forward motion, but that's tricky right?

24:21

that? that's the mark of a professional because you

24:23

have to hide that person from the police. Have

24:25

to keep them healthy, Have to keep them said.

24:27

You. Have to make sure nobody else knows about

24:29

as you need a full infrastructure like a

24:32

prison essentially. Guards for the prison

24:34

in infrastructure to keep the person

24:36

healthy, said whatever and secure. That's.

24:38

Not something that like to methods in a crack

24:41

house can really do. This is like a full

24:43

on. Organized crime organization doing

24:45

something like this read and so

24:47

come a point where the cost

24:49

of keeping the hostage a hostages.

24:52

Is outweighed by the likely amount of

24:54

money they're gonna get paid. Added Arise

24:56

and. But. We want to make them

24:58

work for it. Would. Not gonna

25:01

make them more millionaires Yes The

25:03

polio for stuff to cover their

25:05

costs. But. I say we gotta get

25:07

to the stage where the kidnappers think. There.

25:09

Is no more money

25:12

unless. We call

25:14

it squeezing the orange literally. They've.

25:16

Got to think that they squeeze every last drop out

25:18

of the family. And that starts with

25:20

what at the very beginning on the very

25:23

first call. Of is almost a

25:25

bit as theater. So. The whole negotiations,

25:27

even on both sides, were you know what's

25:29

going on. This. Kind of a play

25:31

to go through. And you can't. Speed

25:33

is at me. Can't rush it. Or

25:36

Sydney Crisis negotiation side of things

25:38

with people are struggling with it

25:40

since of suicide or Hall Moore's

25:42

the hostage aging in a bank.

25:44

If we try to rush the

25:46

problem solve if we rushing the

25:48

process. That. Pass it is likes to

25:50

come to home. For. Just like you

25:53

the kidnapping can up for ransom. If

25:55

we try rush the process. What?

25:57

Is likely to happen is the kidnappers

25:59

were. They'll. They'll. Take the money.

26:02

And. Then dell to shoes as a down payment

26:04

on go Thanks for you deposit. Now

26:06

we're ready to negotiate, but you can. we

26:08

have money over. and is

26:10

likely fund t them long nukes as it

26:12

was more money we paying too much too

26:14

soon. And that was one

26:17

of the problems with Somali piracy. Is.

26:20

The reason the demands went from. Maybe.

26:22

One or two million, and in the early days

26:24

of the mid, two thousands. T.

26:27

Tens. Of millions of dollars later.

26:30

Is. Because. Governments. As

26:32

well getting involved in though despite

26:34

too much ransom money. To. Quickly.

26:37

And the wasn't really the discipline. The Rise of

26:39

L. Yeah, this is an oil tanker. It's two

26:41

hundred million dollars Or three hundred. And.

26:43

They want. Twenty Just given the twenty

26:45

and and next time he like will sell is

26:47

that as for fifty million that was way too

26:50

quick. Instead of dragging it out for

26:52

a year and being like well we got four

26:54

million dollars. The jews wasn't worth the squeeze when

26:56

you get somebody who doesn't contact you when he

26:58

squeezes the on what he don't like anchoring the

27:00

price of a hostage like we want to million.

27:03

Well actually we were talking about four hundred thousand.

27:05

A year ago, let's start back at four

27:07

hundred thousand and they're like, oh crap were

27:09

not able to make as big jump. Well

27:12

don't be. A. Going right so

27:14

to speak. Depending on who the

27:16

hostages, you nice to see I

27:18

vs if dad wife of the

27:20

local national somewhere in Africa or

27:22

the Middle East. And

27:24

who else of the been taken by here they

27:26

be taken by. And so will

27:29

kind of get a feel for where I'd

27:31

actually one of the company or family. Willing

27:34

and able to pay to. Don't forget were

27:36

talking about. Hard. Task easy:

27:38

Dollars in a bag or couple of bags

27:40

of we need to get from one country

27:42

to another. Cross the border? maybe? And.

27:44

So one of the outset regular

27:46

have. A. Bit of a conflict with

27:49

the kidnappers and in every case it

27:51

happens as a call. this a does

27:53

the phone pool. Where. You know

27:55

full well you about some money's

27:57

the expectations of the kidnappers out.

28:00

Well with a family in the company don't want to

28:02

have. Just. Like you real life we don't want

28:04

to have. That. Difficult conversations know

28:06

you need to have. But.

28:08

You've gotta have it. In order to progress

28:10

to say they coming with us a demand

28:13

for million dollars. A, You

28:15

know what? we're prove breeder to end

28:17

up at about. Three. Hundred

28:19

thousand. Well. Actually we want

28:21

to start off my you be round

28:24

about or the know seventy five thousand

28:26

maybe or whatever to pay? Gotta have

28:28

it is. And straightaway, the

28:30

kidnappers neither gonna get nowhere near.

28:33

The. Million Dollars A may be the first

28:35

Fi. Phone calls still be

28:37

interfering creases, but we're not really gonna

28:40

go anywhere near what they're looking for.

28:45

You're. Listening to the Jordan Harbinger show

28:47

with our guest Scott Walker will be

28:49

right back! This. Episode is sponsored

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a relationship with youth. Funny how much the

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at Six Minute networking.com Now back to

31:30

Scott Walker. When

31:32

I first started looking at the stuff and reading

31:35

books like years I was like wow these ransoms

31:37

They usually get paid. Because. On T

31:39

V it's like all right we trace the

31:41

call send in special forces to jump into

31:43

the skylight like now usually you to show

31:45

for the duffel bag full of cash and

31:47

day when and that's why they keep doing

31:49

this stuff. It's not usually in the the

31:52

score in the West the when the states

31:54

Europe. In. Law enforcement get involved.

31:56

There's inevitably going to be some kind

31:58

of hostage rescue because the teams are

32:01

set. Up the infrastructure is there.

32:03

But. When you go bit further afield.

32:06

The single want to hair loss in

32:08

any kind of boardroom will family setting.

32:10

Is. When someone suggests a hostage rescue.

32:13

Because. I'm say good night any gunmen, we'll wait.

32:16

And. Even as we speak to the hostage

32:18

rescue guys, some special forces or law enforcement,

32:20

what seems? They'll. Say there's

32:22

a highly. Probable. Chance to

32:24

lead the hostages will get killed.

32:27

The kidnappers or one of us

32:29

who is highly risky. Whereas I

32:31

say that ninety ninety three percent

32:34

chance of success. For a

32:36

proper strutted negotiation from if is

32:38

the kidnap friends to be students.

32:40

When you get professionally go straight

32:42

as getting involved that rises to

32:44

about ninety Six Ninety Seven percent.

32:47

And. Said no one hundred percent. Whatever.

32:49

Sit down with a family in those early days

32:51

I'm thinking. This. Works. More

32:53

often than not, we've got a tried

32:55

and tested method. Let's stick to it.

32:58

So. How do you dismantle these gangs? Surely

33:00

you were part of that too because it's

33:02

like okay, let's pay the ransom Now what

33:04

we need do is find these pieces a

33:06

crap to they don't do this every single

33:08

week to somebody else. Do. You track

33:10

them down after the money is delivered

33:13

somehow. As a cult yes, that would

33:15

be the aim to arrest them. But

33:18

in the private sector. Wednesday in Nigeria,

33:20

The Middle East, Philippines Line America. If.

33:23

The cops who the minute you want to go after them. Fine,

33:25

but I've got one single outcome

33:28

or less a safe and time

33:30

to release the hostages. And

33:32

thus what I promise the families of the wallet, What

33:34

of why can't do that? And. I see

33:36

not interested in. Getting. The

33:39

kidnappers in that sense. And

33:41

has been cases where is be the same

33:43

gang come along to three times and is

33:45

it a you recognize the voices and in

33:47

a way that's quite research because you know

33:50

right? actually. They. Do this a certain

33:52

way. They look cast of them. You

33:54

know it's not a five star hotel, but they look

33:56

after the reason be. Well considering. And. I

33:58

don't mess around, the don't pay. Funny Business.

34:01

And I just taught intensive purposes the business minute,

34:03

then the day. Yeah, it must actually be quite

34:05

reassuring to have you walk in and go. Okay,

34:08

well, he didn't confirm it, but I recognize this

34:10

guy. He's the chief negotiator for this gang. Last

34:12

time I've got three people often as gang they

34:14

came back. they weren't sick, they were fed the

34:17

whole time. They were kept in a place that

34:19

would didn't have scorpions crawling all over. I'm. This.

34:22

Is probably gonna be fine. I've never

34:24

lost a hostage with these guys. It's

34:26

the new, the new gang. That scary

34:28

read like the unknown quantity has to

34:31

be weighs more of nerve wracking then

34:33

somebody you've dealt with repeatedly. Yup, it's

34:35

in everybody's interest then to make it

34:37

work. Because. The kidnappers. They get

34:40

paid. Not some much as

34:42

t. Almost. Jeopardize

34:44

the rhythm is I make sense the

34:46

pace of the rhythm of these things.

34:48

Embry knows if we stay within this

34:51

ball park. Everybody's. Gonna be

34:53

okay. I will can be looked after. This is the way

34:55

of doing business in this part of the world. It's

34:57

when you get these rogue act is a comment

34:59

on both sides. The kidnappers have done

35:01

a what they're doing. All. People

35:04

try to represent the family. all the companies

35:06

would allow. He goes away. And

35:08

they paid too much to see out and

35:10

said if we saw in somebody days I'll

35:13

just mess it was, messes it up or

35:15

actually increases the risk. Save paper

35:17

to get taken hostage for the down the

35:19

line. It's funny him as an eagle probably

35:21

because it does sound like a lot of

35:24

the problems people have when negotiating our ego

35:26

based. Does that maybe make women better negotiators

35:28

in that sense? Or am I just stereotyping

35:30

men and and unfair way here? Are

35:32

not think it's an accurate. Assessment: they

35:34

don't have my experience that I see

35:37

women seem to be able to tap.

35:39

Payne said that. The. Embassy Muscle

35:41

so to speak. And they seem to

35:43

be average. Do that. Often

35:46

better than the men. Interestingly,

35:49

With in law enforcement he to quote

35:51

issue negotiators are women to the very

35:53

good at that. Within the private

35:55

sector, less so. But. I

35:57

think it's enough a lovable skills.

36:00

In train people how to. Do.

36:02

The songs I've got like that poor

36:04

attitude of. Curiosity.

36:07

Been. Able to suspend the unhealthy

36:09

go you. Are looking to do

36:11

these things The right reason? You. Can train

36:13

a lot of people to do that. Miles the

36:15

email yet? now I've course you can train people

36:17

to do it. It just seems like if I

36:19

have a roomful it's and guys and ten girls

36:21

at it, I had to pick somebody who had

36:23

a low ego. I probably would start on. One.

36:26

Half of the room and not the up

36:28

generally speaking. Why do you think less women

36:30

enter the private sector of for negotiation? It's

36:32

not why would that happen. I think it's

36:34

because when you think of a lifestyle. You've.

36:37

Got one or two, sometimes three different

36:39

bible phones. They all could go off

36:42

foot three three o'clock in the morning

36:44

on a Saturday or Sunday. And.

36:47

You've gotta be on the next flight

36:49

out of he throws and you gotta

36:51

go see a Buddha or. Manila

36:54

are also was six weeks.

36:56

By. Yourself. And it just

36:59

seems to be with lifestyle doesn't necessarily

37:01

appeal to. Women: Although there

37:03

is no reason why they couldn't do it

37:05

doesn't said we no longer make really good

37:07

he guy me to the think it's the

37:10

the lifestyle and told that he can have.

37:12

That. May put some of them off, I suppose if

37:14

he want have a family. I mean it's literally the

37:17

same reason why women don't go into other fields right

37:19

than one of kids. and they don't want to fly

37:21

to a Buddha for six weeks and leave their kids

37:23

with their husband who can't cook. Anything but

37:25

a burn penkair yeah some of the time I mean,

37:27

I know, get em stereotyping and to talk about myself

37:29

at the point. Of

37:32

absolute a be great disable get into

37:34

it because they can bring a different

37:36

skillset they to work with families and

37:38

clyde differently they they can be another

37:40

dog sometimes betting intuition. The men are on

37:42

how things. Are going. But. Of for say

37:45

says the way that it's yeah, it's panned

37:47

out to the lifestyle Nine make sense. I

37:49

heard you say that hostages and kidnappers rarely

37:51

exchange at the same time, right? Because in

37:53

movies it's like we got the girl. she's

37:55

a the back of the car throw the

37:57

duffel bag across the pavement. That's not really

37:59

how this. They yeah always use of things.

38:01

It was we're going to me the sense

38:03

of the bridge. yeah we'll have the slugs.

38:06

It's. Three o'clock in the mornings the

38:08

briefcase gets put down on the hostage

38:10

walks towards he read. But it's nothing

38:12

like that. Know. And again he

38:14

comes back. Such trust, peace, Where.

38:17

We will. Use. A

38:19

career or somebody who is willing to

38:22

do the ransom drop. Somebody.

38:24

The both sides can trust and

38:26

they'll probably get sentence a wild

38:28

goose chase were very sick points

38:30

to make sure the not being

38:32

followed. The. Others one case

38:35

where they had to go to

38:37

particular fishing boats. Are they

38:39

obviously the top some of the boat and

38:41

was friends with the kidnappers? You got taken

38:43

out to wait. wait. Added see

38:45

where another bite will come alongside.

38:49

The money will be handed over county that the

38:51

boat will go off. And then. We.

38:53

Just have to sit away

38:55

and hours or days later.

38:58

The. Hostas may get dropped off of

39:00

a safe point. One. Of

39:03

those quite frequently as the. The.

39:05

Hostage takers were wanna make sure

39:07

that the hostages. Get. Back

39:09

safely that that not. Intercepted.

39:11

by another criminal gang and it starts off. all

39:14

over again because then the reputation of

39:16

that first gangs acts against threatened about

39:18

their read poor that customer service reserve

39:21

or a couple of man they give

39:23

failed to deliver the package on time

39:25

and in one piece three stars negotiations

39:27

are smooth with the other hand of

39:30

was terrible. That. Is kind of

39:32

funny but also tragic right? for the person

39:34

who gets intercepted by another criminal gang of

39:36

the way to being delivered. after all, that

39:38

guy's gotta be so friggin' dangerous for the

39:41

meet somebody in the jungle or on a

39:43

boat or whatever as is. How.

39:45

Do you ensure compliance? Just that Frost right? Just

39:47

like a if you want to keep kidnapping people.

39:50

And. Getting paid for it. You. Better do this

39:52

otherwise we it next time somebody gets kidnapped are

39:54

going to do is bomb your village because we

39:56

don't know where to Buddy is. That's. Gotta

39:58

be the thing Ray A good weekend. Stop you

40:00

if you want accept cash. The. Only

40:02

thing we can use the stop use force and

40:04

that's a bad. Trade for everybody, it

40:07

is, which is why. That. Ransom

40:09

Discipline. I'm actually trying

40:11

to slow the process down so they think

40:14

that goes much money as possible is no

40:16

longer their interest. To. Keep the

40:18

hostages for whatever reason. Then

40:20

we know we've got. The where

40:22

we need to be precise think actually in

40:24

cook meat on the way to the the

40:27

the runs of Drop the Hostage and over.

40:29

And. Then suddenly there's a social media. Posts.

40:32

That pops up and is a discuss

40:34

the Jungle A don't have access to

40:36

social media You be mistaken they day.

40:39

And. They'll. See a relative

40:41

will somebody will the hostages' as drive

40:43

in a sports car or the celebrated

40:45

a promotion at work in. Which

40:48

could just a pain and everything. Which is

40:50

why when the things we may do is

40:52

actually try and get some of those social

40:54

media accounts shut down for obvious reasons. It's.

40:57

Hill always say that agreement

40:59

is one thing. But. It's

41:01

not the same as the release and

41:03

safe recovery the hostages' There's only one

41:05

that back with us in a safe

41:08

territory back in the can pull the

41:10

Embassy compound. Over the medical

41:12

center. Them. Breaching kind of breathe

41:14

a sigh of relief. him. Can. Have

41:17

a Huggins in a pound the back. I

41:19

did add an episode of the years

41:21

ago Daniel eleven episode only seventeen is

41:24

really freaking my my favorite episodes and

41:26

one of the things that he was

41:28

very adamant about was one of them

41:30

biggest mistakes people make as they raised

41:32

the profile. The hostage whatever people go

41:35

to the media is always a really

41:37

bad idea of had. Unfortunately I've had

41:39

show fans were like hey I know

41:41

you've done episodes on this I added

41:43

my girlfriend's uncle that kidnapped in Nigeria

41:45

literal example. And I was. I

41:48

don't post anything, don't try and crowd

41:50

funded And then the family didn't listen.

41:53

And. Then they were like oh you

41:55

were right, They saw that and they

41:57

saw that we crowd funded And as

41:59

for. Stop and that pose Got a

42:01

lot of comments and now they're asking for

42:03

more money and they say we know you

42:06

have it from all these people that you

42:08

crowd funded again when the worst things that

42:10

can happen as he says as you say

42:12

is to raise the profile yeah even they

42:14

send us family instinctively that what i keep

42:16

it front and center but I should act

42:18

of be most cases most cases is the

42:21

was a geek and day. Because.

42:23

They were raise the perceived

42:25

value. Of the hostages in

42:27

the kidnappers might. Even if the reality

42:29

is different, you know, just because you've

42:31

got a big house. Doesn't. Mean

42:33

you can cut of liquid ida and

42:35

tonight to cash and I'm seeing for

42:38

example. And so I sleep

42:40

In the minds of the kidnappers high

42:42

profile. Equals So I was. However

42:45

older, maybe. Yeah. Loose bad

42:47

time to be a you tube or those guys

42:49

are largely broke but really famous as the worst

42:52

Gonna a worse situation? Don't get kidnapped of your

42:54

you do but. It sounds like

42:56

you don't need a ton of high tech

42:58

kid man paper a pen. You mention a

43:00

recording device? What are you doing with a

43:02

recording device? Obviously we're You're recording the phone

43:04

calls but why are you playing the calls

43:06

over and over? What are you listening for

43:09

more? First off as the case was involved

43:11

in a while but now where again he

43:13

was of brother got a ten and so

43:15

with is a brother and we go to

43:17

a hotel suite. We. Will kinda in

43:19

the in the room. The. South and

43:21

another negotiator the brothers live. What

43:24

is this? was all the monitors that

43:26

a satellite feeds ear and death? Come

43:28

on. and all that the red fired

43:31

under the went. Like. This

43:33

three things are gonna get your by the

43:35

but. This. Is pen. Is

43:37

piece of paper and this is recording

43:39

device. Know man, I mean the world.

43:41

Things going on. The background buzz far

43:44

as he was concerned. as far as

43:46

the actual key moody Teddy with the

43:48

kidnappers were was involved. Was. That's

43:50

all we need it. And the reason

43:52

why we record the coals. Is.

43:55

It's. Not gonna be player. as

43:58

his conversation between unite. You.

44:00

Know a base you gonna be speaking

44:02

to somebody else. Satellite slow in the

44:04

Miller, the jungle, the doesn't Somewhere. This.

44:07

Reception: get a been submitted

44:09

is gonna be heavily accented.

44:11

Of these get a cut out multiple

44:13

times. Which. Is the one thing. And

44:16

then the other thing is, you don't what? any doubt

44:18

as. To what was said moon. You

44:20

know what was that? For C

44:22

O, four hundred and forty of fourteen.

44:24

yeah, circle and fourteen or whatever. And

44:27

say, we played back time and time

44:29

and time again To Go actually does

44:31

exactly what they said. And

44:33

hc say, than trying contradict

44:35

all. Play. Some funny business

44:37

later down the law weekend. Your wisely

44:40

know I shouldn't be saying. You.

44:42

Know whatever? Days ago, it was

44:44

fourteen as opposed to fall, for

44:46

example. Than. Said us. One the reasons

44:48

why we do you do some sort of linguistics

44:50

analysis enough. I'm negotiating with the Widow satellites All

44:52

I want to record that now as they okay.

44:55

Is. This Moroccan Arabic Somali Arabic is

44:57

is that non native speaker of Arabic.

44:59

Where do you think people who talk

45:02

like this live? That can be important

45:04

when there's. Some. Suspicion? perhaps?

45:06

Oh, it's in a location where they

45:08

could be some terrorist groups and prescribed

45:10

terrorist organizations. And and so

45:13

will have a conversation with the powers that

45:15

be. Maybe says some. The

45:17

recordings are now guy. Yeah.

45:19

You're okay to continue negotiating

45:21

for it will be. Be

45:24

need step away now. And

45:26

the reason for that is obviously

45:28

because of depending on the nationalities,

45:31

it's illegal to negotiate with. Prescribe.

45:33

Terrorist organizations with a view to

45:35

making some kind of financial concession

45:37

to them. And. Say to be

45:40

helpful from that perspective is what is

45:42

building up an intelligence picture. But.

45:44

Primarily the recorded so we can actually understand

45:46

and kept to what is being said. What

45:48

do you do as you if somebody gets

45:50

kidnapped? I don't know. Al Shabaab. What?

45:53

Do you do then is it's like you can't

45:55

pay them three hundred thousand dollars. What? I also

45:57

do to leave my grandpa over there. you have.

46:00

Over to the government is that who handle this kind of and.

46:02

Seven. Of course he times way

46:04

you know we suspect. But.

46:06

As a terrorist group evolved really saying that

46:09

the be number criminal gangs who will say

46:11

no with. Obvious I am full

46:13

with al Shabaab he likes know the not

46:15

the just one of to appear to be

46:17

the alarm or threatening rent and say you.

46:20

Once with his been clarified who would

46:22

negotiating with will have to be really

46:25

clear what our. Dream

46:27

is gonna be said that he might

46:29

be. We take a step back to

46:31

work alongside the government, may be in

46:33

and just support the family more so

46:35

than actively negotiating. Negotiated with

46:37

amazingly easy. It's. Giving

46:40

in see unreasonable demands.

46:43

And all with a promise to paid

46:45

money is quite nuance than. Every

46:47

time you know you want to get legal advice

46:49

around actually. Always. Good to go

46:51

because. If is linked to kidnap

46:54

for ransom insurance for example. These.

46:56

Shows come to a buyout. The won't

46:58

pay you feel that the compliance

47:00

departments he got the government regulators

47:02

and oh fuck in the State's

47:05

Office of Financial Asset Control. Pills.

47:07

Are some ask the say think she is

47:09

teaching in this. Yeah. That's

47:11

a man that as they could even more

47:13

complicated messy if he can't even do to

47:16

negotiations without other parties saying well. In in

47:18

the interests of our national security, you're not

47:20

going to give them. A. Ransom I

47:22

can see a way where you could just

47:24

set of stuck it Yet over there was

47:26

one case where. It was

47:28

in Afghanistan and. The. Intermediary

47:30

were using. Wanted to

47:32

introduce me to somebody you don't think you

47:34

were right. They taught us sound but

47:37

lot the Taliban. Or even the centauri that

47:39

work am think it. Does does not

47:41

gonna happen. Yeah. I've done said

47:43

dame yeah state. Bring. All your

47:46

diplomacy, And have a difficult

47:48

conversations with everybody. Is t actually wilde

47:50

will get a flight to Bolland. Sit

47:52

down with this person. But. I see

47:54

this is where we can do instead. Do. You ever

47:57

and mrs Probably a dumb question, but do you

47:59

ever get the I. Maybe they're

48:01

trying to trick you into meeting them

48:03

so they can get another hostage or

48:05

or do something with you potentially a

48:07

slut. Never be surprised what happens I'm

48:09

it is very very little can surprise

48:11

me. Now is the what papery the

48:13

capability to try and see what might

48:15

happen. Either. Deliberately your of

48:18

personally. Say. There's always that.

48:20

Kind of questioning of the back by Midas to

48:23

I take what's really going on here. What am

48:25

I missing? What am I not saying here? One

48:27

of the. The. Risks and I see

48:29

that was principally would avoid my job's.

48:32

As the crisis response console tunnel,

48:34

the negotiated would be. Have

48:36

come up with the options. The pros

48:38

and cons identify the risks,

48:41

make recommendations, And. Then be

48:43

a nutshell would have of the the farm

48:45

real the company about so them some like.

48:48

The. Right decision for them. If

48:50

you're the police negotiating this

48:52

hostage situation, Wire. We

48:54

like hey let's have the family do

48:56

this. One of the police actually do

48:58

the negotiating because often one of the

49:00

conditions will be don't get the police

49:03

involved and say you. Buy

49:05

follows in the place. And destiny

49:07

when I was in the private sector doing

49:09

it. We. Would get somebody

49:11

else. Involved. So be a

49:14

family member. Or. Some point a

49:16

trusted third party who could speak

49:18

directly with the kidnappers over version

49:21

of a communicator. And that

49:23

would be used for language barrier for that

49:25

kind of us. But. But. Also.

49:27

If I just rocket this. Kind.

49:30

Of middle aged middle class

49:32

British die suddenly. Speaking of

49:34

paper, in West Africa or will the Middle East

49:36

of whatever the light will and God. If.

49:38

You're getting involved than the hostages who

49:40

we thought were just some local nationals.

49:43

While. They must be worse I that he.

49:45

Yeah, that makes sense as well. What if they

49:47

already know the hostages are or something like the

49:49

kidnapped the Ceo of accompany. It

49:51

wouldn't be weird to have an expert run that

49:54

it seems weird to be like I were to

49:56

have his dumb hot had cousin handle. That seems

49:58

more weird to me. Absolutely insane. Then you're

50:00

probably. Derek. As the

50:03

company this negotiating. So yes, okay

50:05

Jordan, my name's Jaune and I.

50:08

Have been asked to speak to on

50:10

behalf of the company of but then

50:12

just because he's a Ceo. Doesn't.

50:14

Mean that the company can the get x

50:16

millions of dollars rent how they get a

50:19

put that on the on the balance her

50:21

read it I again the banks were released

50:23

the money they were bad as saw that

50:25

on us and so where do you go

50:27

without which is why it's about trying to

50:29

play dow and that the amount of money

50:32

this available. And kidnappers. You go

50:34

to work for. This And it's not

50:36

about saving money. The money, Susie that.

50:39

It's. About minimizing the chances.

50:41

Of this dragging along the that he needs

50:43

to. As what is preventing

50:45

any further can up his sake of that company

50:48

wants to stay doing business in that region for.

50:50

Decades. To come via. Ladies at

50:52

a Clear Message to the kidnappers I

50:55

don't consider. Things as death again.

50:57

Do you have to downplay the value of the

50:59

houses? Are your that Ceo you think is valuable

51:02

but he truth be told he is a terrible

51:04

see a word and replace that guy. He's.

51:06

An faq is already been replaced. He did us

51:08

a favor by taking them off our hands without severance

51:10

pay. So far hit, the guy was doing all

51:12

kinds of damage to the company. I mean, he

51:14

deprived to be careful with that, but I would imagine

51:17

there's some element of like we really don't care

51:19

that much about. This guy said, oh, get your

51:21

hopes up Yeah, absolutely. I mean he could be, You

51:23

know what? Is bus go bankrupt or

51:25

got seems debt. So. Personally, he doesn't

51:27

have the money to pay it as a complete.

51:30

Web publicly traded company we can't

51:32

get hold of five million dollars

51:34

fee. What? We can do is

51:36

have managed to scrape around amongst all

51:39

the colleagues, heavens, family members of the

51:41

church group. He that forty thousand

51:43

was godaddy cash for you right now we

51:45

can They You have that. Man.

51:48

You monsieur some disappointed size on the other

51:50

end of a satellite phones when you finally

51:52

dropped the bomb that it's that They're so

51:54

funny. For. Me I am

51:56

but that's what it's about. It's of

51:58

but the expectation management. And. Making

52:01

it clear where this is likely

52:03

to end. And. Again, you

52:05

can apply that to. All. As if

52:07

you lie for yeah, view boundaries or yeah, have you

52:09

read lies and it's. Yeah. Not

52:11

this is where I'm gonna get see.

52:13

But no further. Some. Other

52:15

stuff happening in London that you wrote about and

52:18

but it sounds a little bit more like. Seen.

52:21

A low of Mexico drug cartels south

52:23

than it does. Anything I would have

52:25

expected. In. London. I mean, you're

52:27

talking about torture and kidnapping. I

52:29

did not expect that. I. The

52:31

London. Get it's. Not. That common

52:33

place where he does happen if I'm on.

52:36

my very first cases was with a family

52:38

is that nine of them in a really

52:40

tiny flat in East London. On.

52:42

One of the coals the kidnappers

52:44

said. We noted that the place

52:46

of work to with the we get a sense

52:49

some of the boys round with a much time

52:51

machine gun to spray the place up. And.

52:53

I'm thinking is this what us myself up

52:55

for Other I just be tits I'm paypal

52:57

the fire, going to help them get released

52:59

and then. And they gave the address

53:02

where we were. like the police station or were

53:04

you at someone's house know is it's own house.

53:06

When the apartment. And he needed

53:08

to. Normally, we want to stands radar.

53:10

We want to stay eat discrete. But.

53:13

Away we dealt with a. We got too

53:15

big. Heavily own schoolboy for

53:17

land cruiser armed response vehicles

53:20

with six. Heavily armed

53:22

police officers swat teams basically stood

53:24

outside of front to the apartment

53:26

block which allowed is t. In

53:29

which is cracking with a d go say since. And

53:31

again kidnapped as will make. What

53:34

would sound like genuine threats? Ideas

53:37

about staying cool and calm and not

53:39

giving the in or rewarding those as

53:41

well. And we didn't In that case,

53:43

we just played it down. And

53:46

we say, well, making threats right out. And.

53:48

You need to a cast of the hostages. Or

53:50

when you're reading you serious a tooth about this

53:52

them photos back. Do you think they drove by

53:55

saw the cops and then they will I go

53:57

oops maybe. Or do you think that was resolved?

53:59

less because honestly and the public thinks they're gonna

54:01

hit anything with a Mack head in the first

54:03

place is full of crap. That's like Storm Trooper

54:06

level of accuracy l think anybody. but maybe you

54:08

can I don't know. made the Uk. Maybe it's

54:10

hard to get a gun that actually fires in

54:12

a straight line unless you're a cop or in

54:14

the military. Automatic weapons them all that common in

54:17

the in Britain and a Mac. Ten units. spray

54:19

and pray because you'd yeah he pull the trigger.

54:21

Are you probably get hit the ceiling before you

54:23

haiti one out yet I didn't want to be.

54:25

will those people that got a stray bullet to

54:28

be in the city. This.

54:32

Is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest

54:34

Scott Walker. Will be right back! This episode

54:36

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important that you support those who support the

56:26

show. Now for the rest of my conversation

56:28

with Scott Walker. Are.

56:31

These people who do this is is not

56:33

a Pc question and I don't want to

56:36

get cancelled by are these local Londoners? Are

56:38

they like immigrants from a more violent place?

56:40

And I mean East Europe could be on

56:42

Not talk about the race or ethnicity. But

56:45

it just seems like. Give.

56:47

Britain the cops aren't even arm to, they don't need

56:49

to be and any of these other gangs coming in.

56:51

They. Just they have a whole different idea

56:54

of what violence is allowed or acceptable

56:56

in the culture. In terms of the.

56:58

Organized Violin criminality

57:00

London. You get different

57:03

parts of the city would be

57:05

run by different nationalities. him say

57:07

that the Albanians or the Tag

57:10

soul. Mate. Whoever would have different

57:12

parts of London and depending on where

57:14

you where you're more likely to come

57:16

interaction with those gangs. But. Again,

57:19

he translated into other parts the

57:21

world where he knew that if

57:23

you had a Latin American kidnapping.

57:26

That. Will be handled in a certain way

57:28

whereas if it was West Africa you be

57:30

handled slightly differently. Would take. Perhaps.

57:32

A different amount of time to resolve

57:34

competitive yeah the Philippines, for example, So.

57:37

That's interesting were some of the seas

57:40

characteristics of these different nationalities. Is it

57:42

like some take a long time, some

57:44

are more expensive. To. To me

57:46

speaking the Latin America like a

57:48

Mexican. kidnappings quite quick. They didn't

57:51

last very long as you days,

57:53

maybe. But. They were renowned

57:55

to be very violent really

57:57

quickly. Either the west? Ask me. Hi

58:00

kidnappings may be going for a

58:02

few weeks or months. maybe maybe

58:04

slightly longer. Term. We well looked

58:06

after the Middle East. Weldon Douglass lay out

58:09

a piece of string really rare and in

58:11

the Philippines generally you be a lot longer

58:13

mean obtains me months and so much high

58:15

amounts of money as well. To says you're

58:18

going to get kidnapped. Get. Kidnapped by

58:20

Africans. There's at the take away or well

58:22

I sleaze. Don't get kidnapped in the first

58:24

play. okay via wireless. My job is one

58:26

of wasn't on a case would be. Advising

58:29

companies and families about how

58:31

term void in the first

58:33

place because. Even though you can

58:35

be the wrong place, wrong time and people do

58:38

get taken. By. And large, he

58:40

become a target because of your behavior.

58:42

In some parts the world. so actually of

58:45

most, if not but ninety nine percent of.

58:47

Kidnappings can be avoided we just a bit

58:49

of for for about what you doing why

58:52

you don't get. So. That that's for

58:54

if you're living abroad. Is it safe to

58:56

say if you're in London you're probably not

58:58

gonna get kidnapper ransom unless you're a criminal.

59:00

lawyers that not yell just the kind of

59:02

emphasize twenty the listeners or views to this

59:05

it together it has landed. London.

59:07

Is one the save his captors

59:09

have in the world and eight

59:11

sleep been a walking down the

59:13

street, the chances of you being

59:15

kidnapped? Extremely.

59:17

Extremely unlikely. You gotta be

59:19

really unlucky. It's gonna be

59:21

normally because you've annoyed if you've ripped

59:23

off. A drug dealer or another

59:25

rival gangs the until by the Uk now

59:28

which is why he likes to get kidnapped

59:30

as opposed to you go to go to

59:32

local. Supermarket. Or store

59:34

you happen to get taken. I

59:36

suppose if you're super high net worth, all bets

59:38

are off because that's what organized criminal gangs. as

59:40

with different. yeah, that makes sense. It

59:42

seems like hi each you is

59:45

key. In. Your line of work I know you

59:47

kind of touched on that at the top of the show. Do

59:49

you think that can be trained and

59:51

developed or is a lot of each

59:53

you social intelligence that in born in

59:56

your opinion nature or nurture question earlier

59:58

ponies element of posey concerned he traded

1:00:00

i know somebody what it is. Is.

1:00:03

Can you walk into a room a

1:00:05

take play in. High. Stress

1:00:07

High stakes are high pressure

1:00:09

Environment. And. Tuning see what

1:00:11

he showing up for you in your

1:00:13

own emotions. And. Been able

1:00:15

to regulate that. I'm have

1:00:18

the sensory acuity. The. You

1:00:20

can suiting so voice are eager for other

1:00:22

people. And. Help the regulate.

1:00:24

And. Bring that down if it's in a high

1:00:26

stakes. And. Some. Papers

1:00:29

is generally. Better. Than

1:00:31

others at it so he was. You can trade it's

1:00:33

have a better than others. And. It's have

1:00:35

enough, but it's It's going to any setting anywhere in

1:00:37

the world. In those high pressure

1:00:39

lines and been able to. Bring.

1:00:42

About heads the type of book erotic Chaos

1:00:44

which is what he was about. But.

1:00:46

Again, you can apply that before you go

1:00:48

there of business presentation or you about C

1:00:50

D Some with years with family or whatever

1:00:53

it is it's been able to tune into

1:00:55

the woods. Really screwed us me right now.

1:00:57

What am I. Sailing. Of

1:00:59

why is that a ice the in

1:01:01

other person on with their displaying a

1:01:03

few signs of. Anxiety. Maybe

1:01:06

the how to weed out them with

1:01:08

the. How do you select

1:01:10

for this? These eats you. Talents.

1:01:13

On the job or even train ability on the

1:01:15

job you know. do a lot of people try

1:01:17

out for the position that you had any and

1:01:19

people just go like this doesn't knuckle head, he's

1:01:21

not going to make it or disguise way too

1:01:23

much of a hot it. I'm sure there's some

1:01:26

of that selection or failure, but do you select

1:01:28

for it initially? When you bring in somebody into

1:01:30

the department. Again, particularly woven

1:01:32

Bisoi Force nine. The

1:01:34

private sector really? Don't.

1:01:37

Underestimate the power of like

1:01:39

ability. In. A we may not

1:01:41

have that much in common say, but can I

1:01:43

sit down with this person? And

1:01:45

have a coffee or bank. get on

1:01:47

with them and and have a really

1:01:49

good conversation back and forth. Where. They.

1:01:51

Really seem to be teen about finding

1:01:54

out about the person and are they

1:01:56

listening properly or they were able to

1:01:58

demonstrate their understanding. We don't

1:02:00

make you know what about themselves. For example, Like.

1:02:03

Ability is a factor. Here is a

1:02:05

real big factors. well. It. Sounds like

1:02:07

consulting or most other jobs where they you

1:02:09

do your internship in. It's like the number

1:02:12

one question is, so if you're stuck at

1:02:14

an airport larger this guy for twelve hours,

1:02:16

do you want to hang yourself? Or is

1:02:18

it fine? He says you could argue

1:02:21

that it's a bit like that at because the

1:02:23

given. The. Given here is that you can

1:02:25

do you job. No one doubts in a you

1:02:27

wouldn't even be I'm the conversation is. Technically,

1:02:29

you weren't capable of forming true

1:02:31

and delivering what is is. When.

1:02:34

You haven't slept for three days. You thousand

1:02:36

miles. Why some home. You've. Got whatever

1:02:38

going on at home and you got

1:02:41

four five hostages. The ransom negotiations I'll

1:02:43

go very well. You got ego driven

1:02:45

Clyde. He got a family wanna push

1:02:47

push push push pay more money. A

1:02:50

Uti to keep a level head. And

1:02:52

you need to be able to keep these people

1:02:54

on side. Without. Alienating them because

1:02:56

if you mess up. People.

1:02:58

Can die dear to testify. Just a

1:03:00

minor little. I'm now getting a bit

1:03:02

right. I heard you say that often

1:03:04

Spear throws a monkey wrench into the

1:03:06

deal and into the ghosts years since

1:03:08

you mention it manifests through as he

1:03:10

was frustration. Anger. With.

1:03:13

Another one is a jealousy or did I am I making

1:03:15

that up? In Northwest Tennessee, Bus Sunny

1:03:17

Fear is an interesting. One. And

1:03:19

you'd see that with Klein's when

1:03:21

the negotiations were moving as quickly.

1:03:24

As they wanted to be protective the get any

1:03:26

patient. Executive. Is used

1:03:28

to things happening quickly. Sandy

1:03:31

beach that be driven by see at the

1:03:33

block wisely. We need to renegotiate the

1:03:35

strategy, which basically dismayed we want to pay

1:03:37

more money, won't throw money at a red,

1:03:40

and that is driven by fear and decisions

1:03:42

made from a place of fear. Rarely

1:03:45

end up working out for the long

1:03:47

term. What you do about that besides

1:03:49

just telling everybody not to be afraid

1:03:52

cause that probably doesn't work. And.

1:03:54

Yes, machine try to tell somebody don't do something. they'll

1:03:56

be like that. Do the opposite though they don't assign.

1:03:58

get the sun back through paying more. Trust

1:04:00

me I have another plan like that's

1:04:02

tough but again it's Dana with them

1:04:04

as you would do any one else.

1:04:06

It's about validates and weather app. If

1:04:08

you know what this sounds like it's

1:04:10

really important see to get this right

1:04:12

to get you calling back. And

1:04:14

is seeds are. You ready? frustrated is

1:04:17

not moving as quickly as possible and

1:04:19

so again you validating you motions labeling

1:04:21

where they're at. So. They add

1:04:24

that to a point where they

1:04:26

say you know what I since

1:04:28

got understands voiles feeding this way

1:04:30

and once you've imagined like it's

1:04:32

a balance of beam we can't

1:04:34

bring about com object irrational, sing

1:04:36

sing and decision making. When.

1:04:38

The anxiety, stress and overwhelm.

1:04:41

Is. High say with a tableau to store

1:04:43

they want. Candy there was some

1:04:45

chocolate. Be. Caught you don't give it some

1:04:47

because again have that did a when they get home. Is.

1:04:50

You can rationally explain to them

1:04:52

was the have a your party

1:04:54

a tantrum he gonna bring down

1:04:56

the stress and overwhelmed. And

1:04:58

then you can stop bringing out

1:05:01

the objective, rational decision making. How

1:05:03

do you build trust with the family of the hostage

1:05:06

when you walk in the room Cause they're freak it.

1:05:08

The first time they see you read they're freaking out

1:05:10

and they don't know you. You walk in there you've

1:05:12

got. A couple seconds. To

1:05:15

as you walked in there and you

1:05:17

give it some big i am done

1:05:19

where the calories arrived they may be

1:05:21

thinking that be called Gary that and

1:05:23

during that seats about reassuring them as

1:05:25

quickly as possible. And. Then ah,

1:05:28

interesting your resume or this, how many

1:05:30

cases can have that conversation later own?

1:05:33

It's about coming from a place

1:05:35

of certainty. That case, In

1:05:37

my experience, this is what is likely

1:05:40

to happen. First. Of all

1:05:42

there's gonna be a period of silence then

1:05:44

what is going to happen? They can to

1:05:46

make contact with you directly or somebody else.

1:05:49

Who. Looked to get a proof of life but

1:05:51

they'll make an obscene. The high demand. Within.

1:05:54

Accounts or it. They get a combat with

1:05:56

some threat. Sick seem that power heights gonna

1:05:58

play out. I see. They go okay

1:06:01

and then they'll say maybe whoa.

1:06:03

How many times you've done this before? Well, And

1:06:06

will sell for the rest a t with done it

1:06:08

and if not thousands of times before all of the

1:06:10

world. This. Was no guarantees. I'm

1:06:12

not going to make you any Promises are

1:06:15

com keep. However, The

1:06:17

race and ninety three percent chance of

1:06:19

success With to straightaway you want to

1:06:21

try to demonstrate that trust. And

1:06:23

again it comes to the like ability. If I come in

1:06:25

there has been. On the hot sunny go

1:06:27

say to you need to listen to me he has some

1:06:29

aloof pricks not going to go of. Is not going

1:06:31

to what was. I shall lead it, empathize. On

1:06:34

each demonstrate but a compassion

1:06:36

and understanding and make it

1:06:38

about them. And. Their love

1:06:40

won't. I'm actually I'm just this person

1:06:43

on the side is going to times facilitate this

1:06:45

happen. He fully. That's. Interesting. Yeah, now

1:06:47

would imagine is the map please out Just like

1:06:49

you said it would that their trust builds overtime

1:06:51

as well. read: okay. they call their I. There's

1:06:53

the demand. Yes, we countered it. They made the

1:06:55

thrusters like he said. He probably also take the

1:06:58

sting out of some of that. When. They

1:07:00

say we're going to cut off his hand. it's like

1:07:02

wolf. He told us you were going to say that

1:07:04

and the also told us that you're not probably get

1:07:06

really going to do that so I'm sure they're still

1:07:08

freaking out worried. but at least when your predictions keep

1:07:10

getting knocked down like ducks. Then. It

1:07:12

shows that you know what you're what you're

1:07:15

talking about, which is probably greatly reassuring. It.

1:07:17

Is or that all savely You know this

1:07:20

axes it's a good restaurants for yourself. does

1:07:22

but how many times you've done and yeah

1:07:24

way does. followed the script more often than

1:07:26

not. And particularly a sale.

1:07:29

The. Make threats or though debt the

1:07:31

hostages on the phone and said oh

1:07:33

well, we're really l were injured Romney

1:07:35

said in a week we haven't drunk

1:07:37

and a week. I. Said none

1:07:40

of that is. Just. Sit on their parts and I'll

1:07:42

say that as well. Some is that the tin up

1:07:44

his own and allow them to starve to death. Or

1:07:46

gets hero because they know. They're. Not

1:07:49

going to get paid, I saw part of the theater. It

1:07:52

seems like patience is a superpower

1:07:54

in these cases, and emotional management

1:07:56

skills and the ability to withstand

1:07:58

uncertainty. But. Then he also. Each that had

1:08:00

a family in real time. As they're going through

1:08:02

it, it's like they've been thrown into the deep

1:08:04

and as why imported? What the beginning? Not to

1:08:07

sugar coat it. Unexplained. Some.

1:08:09

Unnoticed going to be difficult for you

1:08:11

to hear. But. This to Golf

1:08:14

Upon Tyne this is the likely

1:08:16

rhythm and as difficult as it

1:08:18

is. We. May go days or

1:08:20

weeks. We're hearing anything and in that

1:08:22

time is so important. For you

1:08:24

to been there to be there for your loved

1:08:26

one is actually look after yourself as much as

1:08:29

possible, which is why. Will. Turn the

1:08:31

phone off upon them so uncool windows

1:08:33

is why would encourage him to get

1:08:35

as much as possible sleep and exercise

1:08:37

and. Eat unhealthily so they

1:08:40

stay. In that emotionally to place

1:08:42

that is fast and a I know you

1:08:44

said you said the call window and use

1:08:46

the burner phone so that you don't have

1:08:48

to always be on and you have time

1:08:50

for logistics and self care. But it is

1:08:52

interesting how much self care seems to be

1:08:54

a core skill of anybody negotiating with kidnappers.

1:08:56

It's almost like. From. What you

1:08:58

said so far, it's almost like as a contest to

1:09:00

see who runs out of steam and pace and said,

1:09:02

let's their cortisol response get the best of them. Over

1:09:04

this prolonged period of time. And I've

1:09:06

seen it when people don't look after themselves. And

1:09:09

where we saw with a brother in that

1:09:11

case either my first cases well why last

1:09:13

that with the family I did up. Shouted.

1:09:16

At the family close game. frustrated on slept

1:09:18

for a few days and then. The.

1:09:20

More experience negotiate a colleague is

1:09:23

put his hand them a showdown

1:09:25

a gentle squeeze. A nice

1:09:27

enough to break my pattern and then

1:09:29

a what's the masterclass of how he'd

1:09:31

and dealt with the family and the

1:09:33

kidnappers. Those a huge out for

1:09:35

me wanted very outset of my career

1:09:37

that. And say look at

1:09:39

asked the south as much as possible. Yes

1:09:41

is going to be days were. Sixteen.

1:09:44

Eighteen hours Rhonda go nonstop and it

1:09:46

can be exhausting, but the will be

1:09:48

times where it's my buddy. Will

1:09:50

come back tomorrow morning. Go. For would

1:09:52

get some food. Do. Whatever you need

1:09:54

to day. I. Will resume This is

1:09:56

not a com tomorrow morning for example. Manager.

1:09:59

Says real sucks to be the hostage in that

1:10:01

situation right? Your entire life is on hold. The

1:10:03

under stress. In. Poor emotional may be

1:10:05

in physical health. you're not sure if you're gonna

1:10:08

make it out. meanwhile your family's him as your

1:10:10

business is a mess. It's almost

1:10:12

like these guys are almost. latest murder as

1:10:14

bad as murderers is, kidnappers could really screw

1:10:16

up so many lives for such a long

1:10:19

time. It's just for money. It's really psycho.

1:10:21

You're. In Tampa Bay and of also

1:10:23

nine. Hostages when they come out,

1:10:26

Because one what jobs was t t

1:10:28

brief them. With. Take that

1:10:30

medically. I see for lot

1:10:32

of them is they have. The right mindset

1:10:34

was there were being held captive

1:10:36

that she managed to make this

1:10:39

a pretty decent experience. They learn

1:10:41

a lot from it. And

1:10:43

was the main of thrive as a result.

1:10:45

They sent to use this as a. A

1:10:47

springboard to may be Chase a lives and

1:10:49

see. Approach. Life Completely different

1:10:51

than before. And these are

1:10:54

the ones he. They. Didn't have

1:10:56

some naive optimism of false positivity that

1:10:58

into a guy you were going to

1:11:00

be held by. Christmas isn't. But.

1:11:02

It was a we're here for as long as we're.

1:11:04

We. Know the our loved ones that are to do the best

1:11:06

they can to get us out as here. And

1:11:08

I just need to folks on what I can

1:11:11

control. Which. Is in my media.

1:11:13

Circle. Here in the desert, in

1:11:15

the jungle, wherever. And they were the

1:11:18

ones who actually gave an empowering. Story.

1:11:21

Meaning to work with the situation they

1:11:23

found themselves in. And. They were the

1:11:25

ones that benefited the most so to speak

1:11:27

to his will hopefully. Nobody that we

1:11:29

know has to go through. that is to get

1:11:32

that level of personal growth. Jeff go to what

1:11:34

Tony Robbins seminars and then instead and then set

1:11:36

a good kid up. Are places where you just

1:11:38

won't travel because of your line of work? Where

1:11:41

you'd is no look at. I've done way too

1:11:43

many cases in this country. I'm never gonna go

1:11:45

there. Were. Some countries have wouldn't

1:11:47

go. Anyway, And actually

1:11:49

say somebody got taken in Syria or.

1:11:52

Iraq. I'd probably

1:11:54

go to a nearby contributor yeah,

1:11:56

Jordan, Womb, Egypt, or. Somewhere.

1:11:59

Where. It. Either. You next

1:12:01

door, you close enough. To. Maybe whether

1:12:03

they can insert management team running goal is

1:12:06

be run from. Blizzard.

1:12:08

Countries odds are worry about going to

1:12:10

now. Incense consultant the cubs is Wales

1:12:12

to the kidnappings would take place of

1:12:14

lunacy. Go to that country in any

1:12:16

event right? Yes, Syria or whatever. Or.

1:12:19

I'd So here's some questions that you may

1:12:21

not want to answer or feel comfortable answering.

1:12:24

A mask you to speculate largely, but people

1:12:26

online are saying things like hey, maybe Hamas

1:12:28

doesn't know where they Israeli hostages are because

1:12:30

a lot of work taken by Hamas. They

1:12:33

were taken by random criminal gangs. Palestinian.

1:12:35

Islamic Jihad. Or. Even civilians

1:12:37

who then maybe are keeping them or turned them

1:12:39

over of my what do you think about that

1:12:42

because it is possible that and a crazy attack

1:12:44

like that. They. Just don't have a

1:12:46

roll call of where everybody is. I.

1:12:48

Think probably. yeah regional assessment To be

1:12:50

honest a muscle have the mind majority

1:12:52

of the target of forty or hostages'

1:12:55

Was. He said Islamic Jihad have any

1:12:57

other factions and just individuals who

1:12:59

had schools the sets of all.

1:13:01

Criminals who wanted to see a

1:13:04

quick payday. And so are

1:13:06

Israel. Could quite believe were initially. at least

1:13:08

they didn't I who they add he was

1:13:10

holding them aware. But. As time has

1:13:12

gone on. I'm sure that

1:13:15

some pressures be brought to bear behind

1:13:17

the scenes. That to join account for

1:13:19

where. Everybody. Is. But.

1:13:21

We do a scene the some kind of. Joined

1:13:24

a coordinated response on on

1:13:26

that side. Where is probably?

1:13:29

That's a bit of wishful thinking on a

1:13:31

Sunday? Think there is. More

1:13:33

coordinated joined a response from say,

1:13:35

the Israeli side, but even so,

1:13:37

you've got multiple nationalities. Lots

1:13:40

of different governments, all one thing

1:13:42

to represent their. Country's. Interests

1:13:44

the most. Evil in the rain,

1:13:46

into the guitars and the and Saudis

1:13:49

and a what else? Oh try

1:13:51

it. I have their. Pace. Of

1:13:53

the action here was this makes it

1:13:55

does completely. Pull. Most difficult,

1:13:57

challenging horses Negotiations he could.

1:14:00

The imagine Yeah, it seems very tough if

1:14:02

you've got Israel negotiating and you've gotta be

1:14:04

a third parties or directly and you've got

1:14:06

to America negotiating. but then you. that I

1:14:08

mean all it. Seems like is Belgium

1:14:10

comes in is like we want our to nationals or about

1:14:13

a ten million dollars for each one and it's like will

1:14:15

have Thanks a lot. Now they want ten

1:14:17

million dollars for all Forty Americans or whatever that

1:14:19

are over there were not doing that. Will

1:14:21

be so that. Bashing samadi days

1:14:24

marty partially days and in other

1:14:26

cases where. We'll go. We're

1:14:28

not negation, not the guy. Say no. We

1:14:30

been paid maybe hundreds of thousands. And.

1:14:32

Then. A government would just

1:14:34

pay twenty million together people back and you think.

1:14:37

Well. I. Say that rated

1:14:39

doesn't out any other citizens. Of yours

1:14:41

the get taken. Oh all the other

1:14:43

citizens that have been taken from the

1:14:45

different countries. Which. Is why that

1:14:47

run some discipline is so important and

1:14:50

actually. Sammy. Space you When

1:14:52

governments get involved it can kind of a

1:14:54

come messy. The water. What is just a

1:14:56

simple. I'm an author this

1:14:58

particular case the it applies as much

1:15:00

by noble cases. You. Know if

1:15:02

he can treat it as a business The Guy series

1:15:05

and. And it's about money or

1:15:07

maybe by generator for the like a village

1:15:09

and sensing. They're. Pretty straightforward in

1:15:11

the scheme of things, but when. Governments.

1:15:14

Saw get involved and and the touch with

1:15:16

everybody else it tends to one. Lady.

1:15:18

Far more complicated. Skywalker.

1:15:21

Thank you very much. We're really interesting subject,

1:15:23

really interesting topic. The book of course goes

1:15:25

into a lot of detail on communication in

1:15:27

negotiation and there's an but almost like self

1:15:30

help ease stuff. In there. so

1:15:32

there's a lotta tactics that we didn't even come

1:15:34

close to touching on discuss. I was. Curious.

1:15:36

About the stories and everything behind it. And of course

1:15:39

I appreciate you sharing all that. I think it's a

1:15:41

and must have been a fascinating career with the police

1:15:43

and. Go into the private sector

1:15:45

no less. Fascinating. You. Have no thanks

1:15:47

how me spring great certainty about it. You're

1:15:51

about to hear a preview of the Jordan

1:15:53

Harbinger show with Amanda Qatar Easy The was

1:15:56

raised in a cold and later sex and

1:15:58

labor traffic. The women. trained

1:16:00

to be insanely submissive, like

1:16:02

you could never say no to

1:16:05

any man, and then the men

1:16:07

were trained in a very military way.

1:16:10

These people are well armed and well trained, and

1:16:13

it's a whole group that thinks that the world is

1:16:15

evil and they need to repopulate

1:16:17

the world with their people to bring

1:16:19

the kingdom of God. When

1:16:21

you turn 13 in that culture, you're an

1:16:23

adult. So to be 13 years

1:16:26

old, being courted by men twice

1:16:28

my age, three times my age,

1:16:31

to see if I would make a good wife, it

1:16:33

was just kind of outrageous. So

1:16:36

I moved to California to go to school,

1:16:38

and I started training

1:16:40

MMA, and my trafficker was

1:16:43

there. He was actually one of my

1:16:45

boxing coaches. Then he's like, you know,

1:16:47

I like you, and so now we're dating. This

1:16:50

is my first adult relationship. He's twice

1:16:52

my age at this point, and then

1:16:54

he would always take me up to

1:16:57

his cabin on the mountain, which was

1:16:59

really far away from everybody else. No

1:17:01

phone service, isolation, and it

1:17:03

was on a Native American reservation. So

1:17:06

whatever they wanted to do to

1:17:08

me, they could, oops, you accidentally got gang

1:17:10

rape. That was very common

1:17:12

of going to go train, and then all

1:17:14

of a sudden, now that you fought 12

1:17:16

rounds, now you're going to be raped. A

1:17:19

girl ran a red light in T-bone in my

1:17:21

truck. So I pull out my phone, and I

1:17:23

text my trafficker, and I say, hey, I almost

1:17:25

just died to a car accident, and he said,

1:17:27

is your face fucked up? And

1:17:30

I'm like, no. He says, well,

1:17:32

you're still fucked up all then. Something

1:17:35

isn't right here. This

1:17:38

isn't who I want to

1:17:40

be. This isn't what I want,

1:17:42

and it was like I was coming out of

1:17:44

water. I had this moment of clarity, and

1:17:46

I knew something wasn't right, and I knew this wasn't what

1:17:49

I wanted, and I knew I needed to act in

1:17:52

order to get out of that situation because I knew

1:17:54

it'd get fucked back in. To

1:17:57

hear how she escaped her dire situation,

1:17:59

check out episode 631 of

1:18:01

the Jordan Harbinger show. Super

1:18:06

interesting stuff. I really love these weird sort

1:18:08

of jobs. I always think like, would I

1:18:10

have a job like this if I wasn't

1:18:12

doing a podcast with people who have jobs

1:18:14

like this? Probably something along those lines. The

1:18:16

book itself gets super detailed on communication and

1:18:18

negotiation and some self-help kind of topics in

1:18:20

my past life. I really would have dug

1:18:23

in even more on those. But these days,

1:18:25

I like to hook you guys with a

1:18:27

good hostage story or two versus a textbook

1:18:29

on emotional communication. As interesting as that stuff

1:18:31

also is. One mantra from the

1:18:33

book that I really appreciated was the idea

1:18:35

that we should never allow luck to

1:18:38

call the shots. Preparation, managing risk,

1:18:40

managing ourselves as best we can

1:18:43

in these situations. It

1:18:45

means controlling what we can control to the

1:18:47

best extent possible. Sure, bad luck is bad

1:18:49

luck and we shouldn't surrender to it but

1:18:51

work appropriately within those constraints. Lots of practicals

1:18:53

in the book, like I mentioned. One that

1:18:56

stood out was emotional regulation being one of

1:18:58

the most prized skills of any negotiator. There's

1:19:00

a lot of info in the book on

1:19:02

this but there was something that really stuck

1:19:04

with me called the Taras box. This

1:19:07

is essentially a cycle like my attitude

1:19:10

affects my behavior, which affects your attitude,

1:19:12

which affects your behavior, which then affects

1:19:14

how you treat or respond to my

1:19:17

behavior and that of others. This

1:19:19

is a cycle. My attitude affects my

1:19:21

behavior, of course, which affects your attitude, which affects

1:19:23

your behavior, which then has ripple effects. I love

1:19:25

this idea. This is something I've been working with

1:19:27

for quite a long time. I haven't quite put

1:19:30

it in these terms. We can

1:19:32

train how people treat us by

1:19:34

the way that we behave, of course, but that's

1:19:36

influenced by our attitude. Not only can we train

1:19:39

the way that other people treat us, we

1:19:41

can train the other way that people are

1:19:43

treated by others, which is actually kind of

1:19:45

a superpower. Now, this is something that I

1:19:47

probably should get into in a different show

1:19:49

but I find this stuff very, very useful,

1:19:51

kind of turning this into a positive cycle

1:19:53

versus a negative one. All

1:19:55

things Scott Walker will be in the show notes

1:19:57

at jordanharbinger.com or just ask the AI chatbot also.

1:20:00

on the website. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers,

1:20:02

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1:20:04

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at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting

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those who support the show.

1:20:11

We've also got our newsletter. We dig into an

1:20:13

episode of the show every week. Drag out

1:20:15

those takeaways and highlights. If you're a fan

1:20:17

of the show, you want to know what

1:20:19

to listen to next. The newsletter is a

1:20:21

great place to do that. jordanharbinger.com/news is where

1:20:23

you can find it. We are working on

1:20:25

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1:20:27

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1:20:29

are made delivering them is the tricky part.

1:20:31

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1:20:59

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1:21:01

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1:21:03

In the meantime, I hope you apply what

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1:21:07

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