0:00

Special, thanks to our sponsor Glenfiddich single malt, scotch whiskey lately.

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You've heard me talk about Glenfiddich and challenging.

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The traditional notions, commonly portrayed in culture of what it means to be wealthy and live a life of riches.

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This week's guest Yoni park exemplifies these values and you'll find out why later on in the episode, more from our partners at Glenfiddich coming up later in the show coming up next on the Jordan harbinger show.

0:32

I said, I get up and I get bitten and I try to escape.

0:35

And the only very unique game with north Koreans, whenever you ask them in their dream is always North Korea.

0:42

And that's the thing. You never escape in your subconscious you're there forever.

0:46

Like my mom every night, she's there every night and they're like, nobody escapes in your dream.

0:57

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger on the Jordan harbinger show.

1:00

We decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people.

1:03

We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game.

1:06

Astronauts entrepreneurs, spies, psychologists, even the occasional Russian chess, Grandmaster four star general or former Jihadi.

1:13

Each episode turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker.

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Now, if you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about it, our starter packs are where you can do that.

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These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by popular topics that help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show, just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start to get started or to help somebody else get started.

1:39

And I always appreciate it. When you do that today, part two with Yoni park, if you haven't heard part one, go back and grab it.

1:45

She has escaped from North Korea.

1:47

She's a popular online personality and activist right now.

1:51

Her story is harrowing and incredible.

1:52

And I think you're really going to enjoy it.

1:54

If you haven't heard part one again, go back and grab that.

1:57

Otherwise, here we go with part two with Yoni park.

2:00

And by the way, if you're wondering how I managed to book all these great creators authors thinkers every week, it's because of my network and I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty, how to build your own network for free over at Jordan harbinger.com/course, and most of the guests on our show, subscribe and contribute to the course.

2:17

So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong.

2:19

Now here's part two with Yoni park.

2:21

You

2:21

thought

2:21

the

2:21

leader

2:21

could

2:21

read

2:21

your

2:25

mind. I know that there's these self-criticism sessions as well.

2:29

We are kind of like, I guess it's kind of like Catholic confession where you air your, you air your own failings, but you also have to kind of narc on other people, right?

2:37

Yeah. That's a difference. It's more like, I think Chinese people also during the culture revolution, they can ask people exactly the same thing.

2:45

Even children have to do it.

2:46

This is a where they completely teach you how to, how to teach you that you don't matter and make sure, like get dignity of human being gets rid of that at the point where you're not even not being anymore.

2:59

Only reason you exist because of the Kims.

3:02

That is your only real life purpose.

3:04

So you write down the verses that came down and said, oh, she's a, maybe student's job is studying hard and working hard for the party.

3:11

But as this week, based on his luck, it's like Viber versus we have the book.

3:17

It's like, you know that Kim said, I don't know who said, maybe Perry wrote it for him.

3:22

Right? And then we say, he said this compared to his words, I was not faithful revolutionary to deal leader like for his mercy.

3:29

As he forgave me my sin.

3:31

Now this is a difference.

3:33

It's maybe catheter research. You can do that too.

3:35

Maybe God said this this way.

3:36

I did a good job. But although the thing is that you can never say what I need to write.

3:40

It Has,

3:44

You always have to be a sinner. You always have the rigidity.

3:46

You always have to feel great friends.

3:48

Sorry for being you.

3:50

They make you feel like you are not worthy of anything.

3:53

Big grading you.

3:54

After that, you have to pick somebody.

3:57

And that is called even kids.

3:59

So entire week, Saturday, the self-criticism was session coming in.

4:04

So you have to look for people's fault because you cannot get away, not criticizing somebody.

4:08

So it's a real thing that you look at other people.

4:12

So you're only on learn how to look at other people's behaviors, spying on them.

4:18

And therefore it's So you're the distrust is programmed from the jump in your classmates, right?

4:23

Because you, you won't say, oh, I didn't do my homework last night because I was watching something with my parents.

4:28

It's like, someone will tell on you and then you look bad in front of everyone.

4:32

So you never right. And you get punished.

4:34

And if it, if you did anything actually bad, then you're in even worse trouble.

4:39

So it's just finding any reason to denounce anyone for any reason, including.

4:44

Yeah. And there's this kind of quota.

4:46

You have to criticize somebody.

4:47

So there's a real job to finding it a real job and how you will spend on who's doing well.

4:53

Who's doing well, what are they doing wrong?

4:55

Because you have to do self criticism with other people.

4:58

Oh my Gosh. It's exhausting to think.

5:01

Imagine being in school, like middle school, high school as a six years program.

5:05

But so during the 60 years, how many times do you think you going to criticize somebody every week?

5:10

Every Saturday, hundreds of times, Five

5:14

artists and officials every two days, because I think artists, his minds are more vulnerable to change and corrupted by capitalist.

5:23

Yeah. So they have to do every two days.

5:25

Then you, how many times do you have to hate somebody and criticize your friend in your comments?

5:30

So that's how they make sure everybody hates each other.

5:33

Everybody to not trust each other.

5:36

Since there's no trust, you can't agree with your friend. Like, all right, today, you complain about my dirty uniform tomorrow.

5:40

I'll complain about you. You can't even make any kind of pants.

5:43

So when everybody's divided, who wins, the party wins because the is happening.

5:48

Then they do everything they could to divide every single one of you.

5:51

And that's why I was so shocked when I came to America.

5:54

It's like, people are so trusting, like are so trusting and like unbelievable how trusting these people are talking about your feelings either in therapist.

6:03

How do you trust?

6:04

It's a complete based on trust.

6:07

Well, your therapist here, even if they aired your dirty laundry, people would just go, wow, that's really unprofessional.

6:11

They wouldn't be like, oh, yo and me has trauma.

6:14

That's terrible. We're going to laugh at her.

6:16

No, we would think the therapist is a terrible human for sharing that.

6:20

Right. It's the opposite. Then therapy is a little bit weird coming from a place where you're supposed to denounce and not have any secrets.

6:26

It was weird. I don't think I am. Honestly, I still don't think I can be completely honest with the therapist.

6:31

Cause I'm still have that trauma.

6:33

But with the friends I'm becoming more like often just tell them how I fear.

6:37

That has been amazing because in North Korea, you don't talk about how you feel, how you feel, what do you think?

6:46

So it's a really new thing for me to talking about your feelings here.

6:50

Yeah. It's gotta be so hard to looking at a relationship in North Korea versus a relationship here.

6:57

You have no model for a healthy marriage, for example.

7:02

Yeah. It's been very hard.

7:05

Yeah. When you were married before, did you find it hard to share actual feelings and secrets with your ex-husband?

7:10

Yeah. I think communication was a main issue.

7:12

Yeah. It was very Hard. Cause if it's like, what do you think?

7:14

And you're like, I have no opinion because you know, you're not used to having, or you'd never thought about it.

7:19

Things can bottle up. Right. Okay.

7:22

So I think, you know, giving the benefit of that in North Korea, if somebody says anything, oh my God.

7:28

You're reporting on me. Yes. Only in doing bad and right.

7:30

But here in America, people really give you a benefit of that.

7:34

Not

7:34

in

7:38

politics. I feel like not on Twitter.

7:40

Yeah. Everywhere Else. Yeah. When it comes to person, relationship, people do in general.

7:43

I think people are very charitable here.

7:46

When it comes to interpretation, You said, oh, can I be a little bit later to the interview?

7:50

I didn't think, oh, she doesn't want to do it.

7:51

She's got a lunch far away.

7:55

I don't know. Yeah.

7:57

That's, that's interesting. You're right. We are as a culture.

7:59

And in fact, it's almost a virtue here to trust.

8:03

Yeah. So wins when you trust everybody wins and not the dictators though.

8:08

They lose, they want you to not to.

8:11

That's why it's so scary. Nine America, just housing, everything for opinion.

8:15

Just so unbelievably scary.

8:17

What do you think of China heading more towards authoritarianism too?

8:20

It was, I mean, CCP has never been kind of like a global leader in human rights, but it's definitely getting worse.

8:26

And at this point you don't even need a human sources to report on them.

8:29

They got the facial recognition, they got social credit system.

8:31

So what you write online, I know why you throw on the street, the traffic lights that you don't obey in, how you park everything, how you spend, what you spend on, what you watch.

8:44

They calculate all your score already for you.

8:47

So in a way, China is more like, it's not a brave new world in a way.

8:52

Like if somebody's asking me, what would you choose?

8:54

Wars 900 for brave word.

8:56

I would choose a brave word. I'm so sorry.

8:58

Rather be dumb and happy and be fed and healthy.

9:03

Right. Because I know what it feels like opposite.

9:05

I mean, there's of course I want to be free and suffering like we are right now, but China is, it's not becoming brave new world.

9:14

They are in a way like 84, like big brother.

9:17

And I don't think that regime is ever going to make you happy and take care of No,

9:22

I mean, I studied Chinese on online and my teachers have told me things.

9:27

I'll ask them about the social credit score.

9:29

Often. They don't want to talk about it. But if I, if you know, you develop a little rapport with somebody, they told me that one of their colleagues who is a man, when you use we-chat, which is like their WhatsApp version, it'll say underneath his profile photo, like this person does not pay his debts or something.

9:44

And his social credit score is low.

9:46

I forget the exact phrase, but basically like, imagine I'm sending you a text message, like, all right, we're ready for you.

9:51

Now in below my profile photo, it says like, this guy never pays his friends back and isn't it allowed to fly on airplanes.

9:57

It's so creepy.

9:59

Right. And you're just like, do I want to do this interview? Jordan's not allowed to fly because he's a bad partner.

10:04

Yeah. I mean, it's just unbelievable, like how this, the world is changing so fast.

10:09

We thought that democracy was winning.

10:11

The freedom was winning apparently that no, apparently not.

10:16

Yeah. Okay.

10:17

I think a lot of people are wondering how you ended up in the United States, right?

10:22

Because you can't just walk out of North Korea very easily.

10:26

In fact, now it's very, it's almost impossible.

10:29

Now you don't hear about people escaping now because the border has been fortified by China and North Korea.

10:34

From what? Yeah. North Korea literally put the country.

10:37

Can I afford electricity?

10:39

Puts the highly electrified wire fences one time in her border of North Korea.

10:45

So the entire country, we came concentrating him.

10:47

Not only that they put the machine, I mean, with the machine guns, with the cars, every 10 meters.

10:52

And on top Of

10:54

that, they buried the land. The mines, Oh,

10:57

that's really extreme.

10:58

When I was in China a few years ago.

11:00

And Dandong which I mentioned earlier, we took a boat trip onto that river.

11:04

And the captain was like, it's all Chinese people.

11:07

And then me and my friend and they were like, don't take pictures of the north Korean guards who are stationed on the water's edge because they'll get aggressive.

11:15

It's a Chinese tour. Nobody listens to anybody.

11:17

So these old Chinese people are raising up their camera.

11:20

And we saw the north Korean guys doing like waving us off.

11:24

And finally one got so pissed.

11:26

He raised up his rifle and aimed it right at the boat.

11:29

And all those Chinese people just started laughing.

11:32

And me and my friend were like, oh my God, we're gonna die.

11:35

We're gonna die in the boat. Captain comes on as yelling in Chinese, you know?

11:39

And, and I said, what's he yelling? And he said, oh, something about don't take photos.

11:42

These guys have no sense of humor on the north Korean border.

11:46

These guys are not going to play around.

11:49

I mean, they captured a lot of American journalists.

11:51

They were at the border and then doing the station on North Korea, they came across the board and then captured them, send back north Korean, put them in the prison and Pickerington had to go and rescue them eventually.

12:05

Oh yeah. Wasn't that Lisa Ling's sister.

12:06

She said, though she was trying to run across the river or something like that.

12:10

The north Korean side, she was, she was on the Chinese side.

12:15

That's When the cars. Yeah. Wow.

12:17

I didn't know that. I thought she had sort of like screwed around by going over there to take photos.

12:22

It was a guy who was like Robert Park.

12:25

I, one of the missionaries, he thought he wanted to bring a guts Casper to North Korea.

12:31

So she walked over from that to North Korea.

12:34

The vibrant is and Oh,

12:37

That's horrible. And then they told her that him to the point where she can not function as a, as a man.

12:43

And he tried to commit suicide many times afterwards.

12:46

There's a guy who used to listen to my show named Kenneth bay.

12:49

Do you know that guy? Yeah.

12:51

Yeah. So he was in prison for like a dozen years or something like that for bringing, leaving Bibles around and hotels.

12:57

It's just, the country is extreme as we've discussed here.

13:01

So the borders more fortified now, I don't want to get too tied down in that.

13:03

How do most people escape in the past?

13:06

How did most people escaped from North Korea Skipping

13:09

nine days? And the great famine began.

13:12

So that's when the regime or so Kim Jong-un didn't actually really care.

13:16

How many of you do you don't want to stay here?

13:18

Why would you not let them go?

13:20

Right. So it's like, okay, let them go.

13:22

And he was fine with that.

13:24

But then he realized these people don't just only go China.

13:27

They go to South Korea, they go to America, they go to other countries.

13:30

They became weighted that they thought they are exposing us now.

13:35

Right? That's how north Korean defector came out and giving the Testament to the us state department, the white house.

13:41

So they will like exposing the vision.

13:44

So now North Korea is keep condemned by the UN about the human rights situation.

13:48

So now there are, okay, now we can not let the defectors escape anymore.

13:52

And there's the north Koreans. When they go, they don't just escape.

13:55

They call and they make money and send the money back to their family members.

13:58

Nobody knows Korea escape saying I'm going to have a good life myself.

14:02

They escape because they can sacrifice themselves and make money and send it back.

14:07

North Korea and their family members.

14:08

So then they, when they send money, they don't just get money.

14:12

They get information that is where, like the biggest killer for the regime.

14:17

They tell lies being exposed.

14:19

Right? Of course, because if I escaped from North Korea and I'm a waiter in South Korea and I'm sending back the annual salary that my family makes every month and it's only part of my income and I have a low-level job, people start to go wait a minute.

14:31

So he works at a restaurant in South Korea, and he's basically a millionaire compared to how we are.

14:36

We got to get out of here. Right. That's not good.

14:38

And then word travels fast, like how come that family bought, you know, has a car now or whatever.

14:43

Right. It's a whole thing. Yeah. So that's really changed the system.

14:47

So they stopped the defection.

14:49

So eventually they started putting more pressure on the border.

14:52

But when Kim Jones took over, oh my God.

14:55

I mean, how can you worse than his father? But he was allowed worse.

14:58

So family has all that evil.

15:01

Did you escape from the DPRK?

15:02

I think a lot of people, by the way, if I say North Korea or DPRK, does it matter?

15:08

It matters democratic papers.

15:10

It's a Joke. Have a name yet.

15:12

And that's what North Korea wants to be caught. Okay.

15:14

Well Then screw them. Yeah.

15:15

And that was scary. So, I mean, I don't really care about it when it comes to that.

15:19

I think that I don't want to respect the vision at all.

15:22

So I cross a frozen river from North Korea to China.

15:26

And that was actually right before the wire fences went up.

15:29

So I got very lucky.

15:32

Yeah. Yeah. Charles root told me he basically swam through a river and they were shooting at him, but they probably either didn't have enough bullets or they couldn't see him.

15:40

And so he made it out as well.

15:42

Now it seems impossible.

15:44

No. And there's a, when you go to China, Chinese or the border is very secure.

15:49

Like back then, they were like, okay, there are poor people coming over.

15:52

Maybe we give them some food and then they're going to go back.

15:55

Right? Usually did they go to China?

15:57

When those guys escape from North Korea, we are not like a, Syriana like Mexican refugees.

16:02

There's a democracy somewhere that you want to go over.

16:05

The freedom is right. We were like, we're starving.

16:08

So we just want to go somewhere.

16:10

They give us food. And if we get food, we want to go back to our Homeland.

16:13

So a lot of those kids and go to China, they eat food and come home and feed their family members and their friends and China had no problem with it.

16:23

But then they also saw the, how north Korean women were going after and then started condemning the human trafficking.

16:29

Did they face the China or so nurse cooker complained to them.

16:33

This is our national security.

16:35

If you let nurses go out, it hurts us to, can you catch them?

16:39

Send us back, Kind of wants a buffer state between South Korea and the United States presence in South Korea and North Korea is that buffer state.

16:48

And also, I think there's an tell me, if you agree with this, there's an element of the Chinese communist party saying, Hey, you think we're terrible, but at least we're not North Korea look how bad it is over there.

16:56

And as long as that regime exists, they can sort of say like, we're the only ones who can control them.

17:01

But the other thing they are using as a leverage with the USA, because North Korea is only solved by China, by North Korea only just because of China like him doing, can I exist?

17:12

We dice in, in pink.

17:13

So when the U S want to discuss about North Korea threat, they have to go back to Chinese.

17:19

So that's why they are using as a leverage diploma.

17:23

Well, leverage that is It's

17:25

so sociopathic to me that there are politicians going.

17:28

We're just going to let all these people suffer because it keeps this guy in power, which keeps us from having to worry about other issues.

17:36

It's just so crazy to me that that even is, it just sort of shows you like how much bullshit we tell ourselves about caring about the integrity of people like human rights.

17:47

I mean, it's just pure laughable joke.

17:51

It's pure. Not like we can see the concentration camps.

17:53

We know that there are people in there that are miserable.

17:55

We have countless accounts of this and it's like, oh, well, we'll, we'll talk about it again.

18:00

Maybe later, I

18:02

don't want this year. Is that like 11 millions of his population severely managed.

18:05

He's not even bothered to lie at this point.

18:08

He used to lie like, oh, look at us.

18:10

We are happy strong country. Like this year.

18:12

It's like, yeah, they are starving. So what exactly.

18:17

No accountability at all anymore.

18:18

Not that there are no pretense Pretend

18:23

anymore because what can you do? We've got the nukes.

18:25

We have the power. So what can you do?

18:29

Oh my God. How did you get the idea to escape?

18:31

Was it just, you were hungry.

18:33

I was hungry. And then if you see North Korea at night from the satellite picture, it's like the darkest place in the world.

18:39

It can no electricity.

18:40

So in the border town, I was looking at Chinese side and they had the lights coming out and they had a high road, like ways were cars going by.

18:49

So we also had a rumors in North Korea saying that China dogs eat rice.

18:55

Thank you. So Kim, your son promised us that I'm going to make sure that my people are going to eat.

19:01

Why rice? We do like the meat too.

19:05

Yeah. So all north Korean wants you to all your life and dying for the revolution.

19:09

Wasn't it? The white rice and the mist.

19:12

It wasn't like, if you want to get private jet and you country, and like some Southern station, they can feed all these people, chicken and like rice.

19:24

That's like nothing.

19:25

And that's what we promised.

19:28

And that's the communist cannot achieve that dream at all.

19:31

They're so poor in North Korea, as we heard that, like dogs eat, why rice in China?

19:36

And I thought like the most bizarre thing I've ever heard, how now there's a place that dog is rice.

19:43

Right? How can that be?

19:45

How can that be? It's like, almost like somebody telling you other aliens came and took you.

19:49

And then they, you know, they come visit every night.

19:52

Like that kind of most absurd thing you hear, like, Why

19:55

would you feed a dog rice? It just doesn't compute.

19:57

Yeah, No. I mean, in North Korea dogs eat poop.

20:01

Literally. That's how it is. And then people try and steal it from them to get that food.

20:04

Cause you mentioned, oh my gosh.

20:07

So you're hungry. And you just say, Hey, look, if they've got electricity in cars, they probably have food.

20:11

Right. That's right. And I guess maybe there's a foot by that.

20:14

It's like, I was watching this documentary a robot, like nine 11.

20:17

There were people were jumping out of that building.

20:20

Right? Exactly. That station.

20:21

I don't know if I jump out, there is a life for me, but what can you do?

20:27

The burn is burning and burning and you have no way out.

20:30

So you got to jump and see what happens.

20:32

That's how north Koreans doing.

20:35

So I might die doing this, but I'm definitely going to die hungry here.

20:40

So Yeah, I mean, there was no chance of me surviving in the country if I didn't escape.

20:43

So why don't I just jump and see what happens.

20:47

Wow. And so how did you hatch the plan?

20:50

I had an older sister who I was 13 and I had sister was 16 in 2007.

20:55

She escaped first few days before me.

20:58

And she left me a note saying, go find this lady she's gonna help you.

21:03

So I went to her with my mom and then she said like, yeah, I can have you to go to China, but I look so desperate.

21:09

It was no point of me even asking her, why are you helping me?

21:15

If you already don't trust anyone, this is a desperate sort of hail Mary move anyways.

21:19

So why, why bother getting the details?

21:22

Because it doesn't matter. Even she cares to me. I'm I'm dead anyway.

21:24

Like this, then it didn't occur to me.

21:27

I had to ask, why are you having me?

21:29

So, because you are so desperate, like whatever gonna get you out, you, you want to get out.

21:36

You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guests.

21:38

Youngmi park. We'll be right back.

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25:02

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25:05

Now back to Yoan me park.

25:07

You

25:07

end

25:07

up

25:07

being

25:07

trafficked

25:07

and

25:07

sold

25:07

in

25:07

China

25:07

and

25:07

the

25:07

whole

25:07

stories

25:07

in

25:07

the

25:07

book,

25:07

by

25:07

the

25:07

way,

25:07

which

25:07

we'll

25:07

link

25:07

in

25:07

the

25:07

show

25:14

notes. I'm not going to make you go through it again because you do talk about it a lot in other shows as well.

25:20

But this situation is by all accounts, horrifying and harrowing, and you end up having to sell your own mother for food.

25:31

It's just like the sneak preview as it's some of the most terrible things that you can imagine happening.

25:35

And it happens over and over and over. And the people that you meet are all universally exploiting you and everyone who they come into contact with.

25:45

It's like, this is like the underbelly of sort of Chinese mafia, human trafficking, right?

25:50

Yeah. So how do you eventually get away from that situation?

25:54

So the north Korean men go to China because of the one who had the policy right now, there are 40 million men cannot find women, especially in the war areas and the numbers keep going up.

26:04

So we mean being sorted into four different classes.

26:07

One is human trafficking is where you saw two men in the village who have a disability or crazy or whatever it is.

26:15

So sometimes they buy one girl and what they entire town or their entire brothers in that family.

26:22

Oh, wow. So you're basically as sex slave at that point.

26:24

Not like a No,

26:26

no, your now wife, they watch him.

26:28

When you go to bathroom, they don't want you to run away.

26:31

So that's one second place.

26:33

You where the prostitution, they put you in all this brothers gateway like 20 times a day and then women's refused.

26:40

So they give you drugs. So they make you become drug addicts.

26:43

So women just do it because they want the drug.

26:46

So you have gateway 20, 30 times a day in your like brothers, thirties, where you go the organ harvesting.

26:54

China's the biggest expert of organs did A

26:58

whole show about this. Yeah. So they also use north Koreans just care them and take the organs out.

27:02

The last place in the chatroom where this brokers put in us, setting another facility with a lock the door and putting the skirts in front of the cam and the costumer such south Koreans, and then show their bisects.

27:17

Kim. So I'm on the four. Why would you choose All

27:20

jokes aside? I would obviously choose the cam girl option because at least I'm not getting touched by.

27:24

I actually get waived by nobody comes to your room, right.

27:27

You just show them your body.

27:29

So I chose that. I initially had a, saw the biomass raped.

27:32

And then at the end of the journey, I was finally able to go to chatroom there.

27:37

I heard about South Korea and I heard that there is a way out of China, But

27:42

you already knew South Korea existed. Right.

27:44

But now like the of North Korea, they are finding the language so much.

27:49

So Josephine is Korea.

27:51

Like it's a South Korea, they course North Korea, like just like a north of Korea, South Korea.

27:58

But their name is Diane Mingo.

28:00

And we call them like south of North Korea.

28:04

So North Korea just called South Korea, Southern North Korea.

28:08

That's ridiculous. Korea,

28:10

South Korea then like Northern South Korea.

28:13

So the language difference was huge.

28:16

And then I did not know that I would say North Korea.

28:19

And they said that it in North Korea told him

28:24

Yeah. So Joseph is a way we knew of, so South Korea did not have a name Jordan at all.

28:29

He has like, they have Mingo is like, what the heck is down Mingo.

28:32

Right? I did not. That was like our Southern part of North Korea was, and then was talking to these people and it's like an arm from damming was like, what is Domingo?

28:41

And then we had a defector friend who was working in the chat too.

28:45

And she said, I know the missionaries.

28:47

And then if you go study Bible with them and then they're going to have us to escape South Korea by then I was 15 years old.

28:55

15. Yeah. So I was there in two years in China, two years, Two

29:00

years of unspeakable sort of treatment and then Bible study, and this is your introduction to sex, right?

29:04

You said before, you had no idea the concept of sex until your mother was sexually assaulted, essentially right in front of you.

29:10

And then that became your daily existence for those few years.

29:14

So you're doing this Bible study with the missionaries and then how do they prepare you to escape?

29:19

Like what's their plan and fasting, praying fast.

29:23

You tell them, you already spent your life fasting and it didn't help A

29:28

lot of fasting and praying and memorizing the fiber versus So

29:33

there's no practical training for like, here's how you're going to Escape.

29:36

They don't give you a physical training.

29:38

They don't give you gear. They don't give you the right clothing is your, you need a miracle to do it, which is because you are going to go across the Gobi desert, into Mongolia from China in the minus four degrees, You're

29:49

going to cross the Gobi desert on foot in negative 40 degree.

29:52

And just hope that you end up in Mongolia.

29:55

And then with discovered by human beings in the middle of the Gobi desert Kind

29:59

of plan is that so The, your survival rate is very low, like 99% a year in Japan.

30:04

And even they get caught by soldiers.

30:07

So you need a miracle. That's why they make you pray and truly brew, like waiting for God to sign to go.

30:14

I know you help people escape now. And I assume you have a better, slightly better.

30:19

We used cars and transport them to Thailand.

30:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we didn't have money.

30:24

These people, we have to raise money to transport them, drive them, but going to Mongolia, you don't need a broker.

30:30

They just give you a compass.

30:32

Why don't you walk, follow the north in the west part and then cross the eight wire fences.

30:38

And hopefully that's going to Mongolia or something That

30:42

is just mind blowing. So you're crossing the Gobi desert.

30:45

How long does it take? I took one day, one day because we chose the coldest time of the year.

30:50

So the cars will think like who's going to be crazy enough to cause the other times the security so tight and their cars in China preventing nobody can escape.

31:00

Can I show you?

31:01

So if you choose a call this time, then even though it's very high, secure, tight border, that's the people think, oh, nobody's crazy enough to cross right now.

31:12

Yeah, It's freezing. They don't want to go outside even themselves.

31:15

So we chose that time.

31:17

And then we crossed the one day.

31:19

But the tallest thing in the desert is that you don't know if you're going straight or backwards on the side or so cool.

31:26

Because nothing tells you indicate you you're going forward.

31:29

You Just have a compass. And you're like, I hope this thing works.

31:31

That is Like in the middle of the ocean, nothing cares you where you're Going.

31:36

There's no landmarks on the horizon Side

31:39

thing. So that was like, where I shouted.

31:40

Like, I'm not sure if I'm just going to circle and start going out.

31:44

We did the rumors where there's some defectors do that go days.

31:47

And so calling the same thing again, again, come back to the same spot.

31:51

So then we go like, okay, let's leave a staff here.

31:54

So when we come back, maybe we came back here.

31:55

That's how we went, moved along, living some stuff.

31:58

And knowing we've been here, thankfully we only got discovered next day by Mongolian soldiers.

32:04

So the Mongolian soldiers are used to seeing north Koreans crawling, crossing the border all over these wire fences.

32:10

So then is it a warm welcome or is it kind of like, you just get arrested, They

32:14

use a gun, I put your hands up and you crossed the border illegally.

32:17

So it doesn't matter your child or not.

32:19

And then they told us they are going to send us to China back and then send them to North Korea, Which

32:24

they are not really going to do. They have Done

32:26

that. They have done that because it's so inconvenient for them to call back to base called the top people, getting South Korea and so much work for them.

32:34

So this is if they can hide. I mean, usually south Chinese soldiers don't even bother to register them all.

32:39

And the animals come eat you in the border.

32:43

They shoot to kill older. They don't bother to arrest you.

32:46

You got to shoot them. If you see any foreign object there.

32:49

So they just don't want to be too much work for them too much paperwork.

32:53

They have to fill out when we caught them, how we caught them.

32:56

Right. So they just shoot you and then like animals going to do the Jaffer them.

33:02

Okay. So obviously that didn't happen to you.

33:04

You got taken in by Mongolian, military.

33:07

Yeah. The border guards. And then they said they were going to send us back.

33:10

So we all gonna kill ourselves.

33:13

Right? Your plan was to kill yourself. I mean, north Koreans is like the Jewish people.

33:16

When there's Holocaust, we already die.

33:19

When we get caught.

33:20

And then they eventually swearing and helped us to go to South Korea.

33:25

The thing that I don't understand and that I don't, I can't quite wrap my mind around is they've seen refugees come across the border over and over.

33:32

It's not like, this is the first time they've seen it.

33:34

I don't know why they can't have a plan for this.

33:37

Or they're saying, oh, we're going to send you back. I mean, they must know that what they're doing is heartless and cruel and they just don't care.

33:42

Yeah. I mean, for them, this is fun.

33:43

It's so fun for seeing people begging for their life.

33:47

And that's the thing, human nature is horrible.

33:51

When humans are not being educated and civilized, you can be combined variance.

33:56

And this is the thing about human nature that, you know, people, not a special people, became the Gaza in the concentration camp, in the Nazi Germany.

34:05

No more people did that.

34:07

And I think that's why we need to aware of our nature.

34:10

Kids were just never knew what compassion was, I guess.

34:14

So they just, it was really fun for them.

34:17

And we didn't get cared about one of my friend's mom's friends, she swallowed up peers and then they upped her, had to take her to hospital.

34:26

And then she never came back fully because she Thought

34:29

they were going to send her back Because that's what they said.

34:31

So a lot of, Yeah.

34:33

What separates you? Someone who escaped North Korea versus somebody who decides to stay, what do you think the difference is?

34:40

If they can afford staying behind you, you get sick.

34:44

If they were not as desperate as me for me was, if I didn't escape, I would not even made a few more days there because I just didn't have.

34:53

So you weren't thinking like freedom, you're just thinking rice food, anything.

34:58

Yeah. Getting starved is worse than being raped.

35:01

The worst torture is being starved because if you don't need you die and before you die from starvation, you hallucinate, you lose your mind.

35:09

That's how most undignified way of dying from starvation.

35:13

That's why cannibalism happening in North Korea because they hallucinate cannibalism.

35:19

Yeah. So, so mothers eat their children because they thought their children were dogs because they go crazy and you don't eat.

35:24

And then they wake up and then like what happened to my child?

35:27

And then they just ate weird stories.

35:32

You're getting these stories, I assume, through the network of other Defectors

35:35

and nation at the COI report.

35:38

And it's based on a true story.

35:40

There was a director made a movie to any nurse who, when we were there, we are actually, the police man was saying there was a, he followed, some mom was holding their baby, going near the river and then making a fire and then boiling the water.

35:54

And then she was balled her baby there.

35:57

So harassment calls are these things you hear when you're North Korea.

36:00

So, I mean, it's, we hear like, just, don't go buy the meat at that in a black market.

36:06

There's somebody selling meat, very cheap price.

36:08

And then like, we all know like what they're selling.

36:12

I mean, you can tell by the bones also in the meat, if it's Yeah.

36:15

I mean, I've thankfully I was so appalled that we couldn't offer the meat so we didn't have to go there.

36:21

Yeah. So people are selling like their own children's meat in the market.

36:25

A lot of people die from starvation. So you can just grab them like their body's flooding on the rivers and the train station.

36:32

When you go there, tons of body stacked.

36:33

So they can just get them and serve the bones and make the broth.

36:38

Right. What's up with the dead bodies at the train station because I've seen dead bodies in North Korea.

36:42

And the weirdest part is I'll see it in 15 other people will see it.

36:46

And our guides will say, I don't know what you're talking about.

36:48

Like, they're pretending that they can't see it on the road and the current station, Because

36:54

in North Korea train from one city to the other city in South Korea, take 30 minutes tastes month sometimes because we electricity, you have to push your train.

37:04

It's not just, you have to push the train. I mean, that's not possible.

37:06

How do you do that? You do wonder the thousands of people come.

37:10

I'm going to show you the picture later after this, that you can use in the video.

37:14

If you want to, what it looks like.

37:16

Yeah. We'll link it in the show.

37:18

Yeah. You can push the train. I guess if there's hundreds of people pushing the back of a train, it'll move a little bit.

37:24

That's wild though. I mean, you're not going up a hill.

37:26

That's for sure. Sometimes.

37:28

Yeah. You, you, there is a here that train cannot go electric so low.

37:32

Then people have to go have the train out.

37:34

This is just unfreaking believable. I mean, this, you got to think if you're running that country, you know that it's a horrible place and you've done nothing to improve this situation.

37:43

Do you think Kim Jong-un is evil himself or is he just part of this system?

37:47

That's set up by his father and grandfather and he's trapped because he knows, he's got to know what's going on.

37:51

He went to school in Switzerland.

37:54

Exactly. What's going, he knows about human rights.

37:55

How humans supposed to be treated.

37:57

But that's why it's a pure evil, like he's not brainwashed.

38:01

He has seen the real world.

38:03

So you can not say that like he was brainwashed.

38:06

You know, he has no choice. Like no he has in the world, the elite of North Korea study, they go shopping in Paris.

38:13

Literally they go ski in Switzerland.

38:16

I mean, they go to the best person in the world and travel and study.

38:19

They live like the Kings and Queens and Kim Jong-un has his own pleasure squad.

38:24

What is the pleasure squad? Cause I've read about this and it's a perfect question.

38:27

So pardon me. But people are curious about this Pleasure

38:30

squad is every year the officials have to meet their quota.

38:34

Again, it's, everything's caught out the order from the party.

38:36

Every region have to submit a girl who is a Virgin and who is pretty and meter all governance data, like the major height, Luke, all of it.

38:47

Right. And also family backgrounds.

38:48

So they, each year they collect all the, from entire country and the only the ones pretty enough and the good ones and the Virgin is going to Kenya from there.

38:59

There was a select giving Kim down on the picture, like, who do you want this year?

39:04

So he picked 25 for a year.

39:06

Each year. He gets only 25 know, like only 25 women girlfriends.

39:10

Like that's all that. Yeah. It seems like a lot, especially for a guy who Kim, Jong-un not in a great shape.

39:15

And his father was even worse shape. I mean, these are old dudes.

39:18

They're probably not. Well, Yes.

39:20

And then other girls going to other trouble fishers, then they divide the scores into different groups.

39:26

Like satisfaction group is a, the sex group.

39:30

The happiness group is the massage group.

39:32

Third group is like health care. They give him the like, you know, other health issues, all these girls being trained for that.

39:38

And their is run from 16 or 17 to 20 to 23 Parents

39:43

think, do they know that this is what's happening?

39:45

Or are they like, oh, you're going to learn how to dance or something.

39:48

The most glorious thing that you going serve your nation.

39:50

But not only that, the north Koreans is that when you go, I know you don't get paid, but you get fed.

39:56

If you fed three times a day, North Korea, you are the most previous person in America.

40:02

I mean, in there it's in America.

40:04

All these people get fed and talking about how hard it's like, I don't get it.

40:08

Oh, you mean all of us are fat because we're eating too much.

40:10

And we can't stop Hearing

40:11

America like to be happy.

40:13

It takes a lot more in North Korea being fed is the biggest pre-reads you can get in your life.

40:20

So when these girls go there, they're going to be fed.

40:23

So their parents are so happy.

40:24

I thought you said fat Being.

40:28

Yeah. Cause it must be weird coming from your look you're in the United States, you look around you're in the Midwest here in Chicago.

40:33

It was a lot of fat people around and there I can't lose weight.

40:35

I can't stop eating. I mean, that's gotta be kind of, that must have been jarring to see when you arrived here.

40:41

I have some like a sympathetic issue in the beginning coming to America.

40:45

Like I just never knew having too much.

40:47

Could it be a problem? Right? Like I just never knew when the world like diet in North Korea, the most desired man is Kim.

40:54

Jong-un like big belly and Baldy hair.

40:56

That means if you are bored, you're eating fat food or something.

40:59

And you have a big belly, you have a status.

41:01

Very powerful because most of people are starving.

41:04

And in America now they're talking about in south security, obsessed with diet and tired.

41:11

And

41:11

here

41:11

also

41:11

people

41:11

said

41:11

like,

41:11

food

41:11

is

41:11

a

41:15

problem. There's too much. The obesity is killing us.

41:18

I'm like, just don't eat. Nobody forcing me to eat.

41:21

I

41:21

know

41:21

it's

41:24

interesting. It's all about perspective.

41:26

So this squad of girls they're young and then they end up doing this for, until their marriage age or something.

41:32

They just go back home Because

41:35

they have seen too much. So the regime, they are like, when they take your daughters, like you gave it to your nation to don't ever look them back to discuss.

41:42

Don't ever reach out to their parents ever again in their lifetime.

41:45

So when you take a skirt and they, when they like what we say graduate, then they match them with the guards who guard Kim Jong-un Garda tablets called people, does gallows a seal.

41:57

So they are forever sealed from the public.

42:00

And then they married the region, make them marriage other what?

42:04

A miserable existence. Yeah. You don't even choose your partner.

42:06

Just give you the it's just being chosen.

42:09

And then you get grouped in Mary and then forever.

42:12

You cannot talk about what you haven't seen.

42:14

And So

42:16

you never see your family again. Never.

42:17

You Don't even hear it back from them ever again.

42:21

I heard that when people escape their extended family, I mean, we talked about the three generations, eight generations.

42:26

So if someone escapes or is it a factor?

42:28

What happens to their family in North Korea?

42:32

The status of your family? So also the punishment was a lot lower during the kingdom.

42:37

Your time, the second king games already didn't really care in the beginning that people escaping the nineties.

42:42

They're like, oh, if they don't like it, you just go let them go.

42:45

Why do we bother? Right.

42:46

And then, so back then, like my family was also lower class and nobody, I mean, they got like interrogated and tortured a little bit in the beginning, but they all got sent free.

42:57

A lot of north Korean defectors, like now in America, they low number over only 200 north Koreans made it to America during the last almost 80 years.

43:07

Yeah. $200, seven or something like that.

43:10

And somehow America doesn't want a lot of north Koreans to come either.

43:14

So yeah, they don't like north Korean refugees that much.

43:19

I had to call me as a south Korean, get all the working visa, like exactly was as easy, possible to come to America if you're a south Korean.

43:26

So north Koreans usually go to South Korea.

43:29

So now there are 33,000 north Koreans made it to South Korea during the last eight years.

43:34

And so most of them are not high class, but the top class, when they do the family, like three-day jammers and does get like punished.

43:43

Is this a complex issue for you? Like, do you know what happened to your family back in North Korea?

43:48

Yeah. So when I spoke out against the regime in 2014, that's when they use all my families, including my neighbors to denounce me and his videos on the YouTube.

43:58

And then they got all disappeared at the request to have those people in the network that I use to get information out, they all got vanished.

44:07

So those People are probably dead then Most

44:10

likely, yeah, there Has to be a complex issue for you.

44:13

That Was the thing I could, when I was speaking, I knew I was risking my life, but I really didn't think that the vision was going to be threatened by 13 years old, who escaped North Korea, who does not even have a military like secret.

44:25

All I was saying is what you see on the Google satellite pictures of his concentration camps and starvation.

44:31

There's a word documented by the UN.

44:33

So I thought like, what am I revealing?

44:35

That is new. I did not know, but because you do not pay, that's the treason, right?

44:42

You escape.

44:45

This is the Jordan harbinger show with our guests.

44:47

Yoan MI park. We'll be right back.

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47:48

And now for the conclusion of our episode with Yoni park, do you feel a sense of duty to these people to spread the message far and wide because they, they essentially have made a sacrifice unwilling sacrifices.

48:02

That's the thing freedom is NAFI pay the immense price to have this voice.

48:07

And I don't know when I'm going to get cured, but the thing is, there are so many people dying to be free and freedom is not free.

48:15

I think we see that like it's impossible.

48:17

It's so hard to be free from the dictator.

48:21

Anything that they say in North Korea about the west or about America that you, that turned out to be true.

48:30

Yeah. One thing was true was when I was in San Francisco, they said, I don't feel that with the homeless and the back dynamic in North Korea, you don't even have the freedom to be homeless.

48:40

You go to prison if you want to be homeless, but you have to work for the party.

48:44

But it was true. When I came to America, there was so much freedom.

48:47

Just everybody can decide to be homeless and nobody arresting you for that.

48:51

So I was like, wow, I guess it was true.

48:53

But then I did the volunteering work at the homeless shelter.

48:57

I mean, they had a refrigerator, they had a soda in there.

49:01

They had a mattress in their bunker beds.

49:04

Right. And they had electricity. So I was thinking live in homeless.

49:07

I was much better than north screen lists life.

49:11

Yeah. That's true internet on your phone.

49:13

And they Have like computers in the share, like what they have internet.

49:17

So that was the only thing.

49:19

And the other thing was they said like, oh, Americans don't even have water.

49:23

So they used to know I've

49:25

seen the same propaganda.

49:26

You're limited to one cup of snow per day.

49:29

Yeah. I saw that in North Korea.

49:32

Yeah. There are no birds in America because people eat the birds.

49:36

The United States. Yeah.

49:38

It's North Korea. But now I come in, there's so many patients.

49:40

If you see one patient in North Korea, everybody goes to the vision.

49:44

Right. You never see that ever again.

49:46

So there's really no birds in North Korea.

49:48

We all catch them, eat in America. So many birds.

49:52

There's a of people complain about the birds.

49:54

Oh, there's stupid pigeons Everywhere.

49:56

It's amazing. Nobody.

49:59

Oh, is it? So you thought white people were cold-blooded as well, right?

50:03

Like literally. Yeah. I mean, they say, when they're Americans, we don't think Americans are like American Mexicans or Hispanic or like African American.

50:12

If we don't know American, which is one type, because they don't teach us about race.

50:17

So I didn't even know that I was Asian.

50:19

So how do I know? There are different ways in America.

50:21

So they draw the painting for you eyes.

50:27

And he goes to USA and they look like monsters.

50:30

And they say, they're like snakes called the bloodied.

50:33

They don't even have a heart.

50:34

They're like monsters, pure monsters.

50:36

So when I came to America, I was like really shy.

50:40

Yeah. I mean, at that point you realized they'd lied to you about everything else.

50:44

So that, Yeah,

50:45

I mean by then, but until though Ontario, any more farm by Georgia law, it was really hard.

50:52

Like how do I trust again?

50:54

Because I mean, they told me everything that I believe it was a lie down.

50:58

Like, so how do I know? What you're telling me is not a lie.

51:00

That's a valid point. You take it in the metrics, right?

51:03

It's like, you just don't know the matrix.

51:05

You just don't know, am I in the thing or not?

51:09

Right. So it was, I had that for years of that time where I couldn't trust Really

51:16

difficult to come here and make friends while trying to also reconcile that maybe these are reptile people with cold blood or that you're not sure if they're lying to you now.

51:25

And you're just caught in another version of the matrix, like you said.

51:28

Yeah. Do you miss anything about North Korea?

51:30

Like some of your friends and family. Sure. But is there anything, any element of the lifestyle or the country that you miss And

51:36

the people I don't miss though, how close I was to other people in the community.

51:41

Like we say, where it's not a good thing, but it's very creepy that I even know how many chopsticks and spoons my neighbors had.

51:49

Like that's how close we Were.

51:52

Even though there was no trust.

51:54

Yeah. But like, We go over and hang out, but we don't talk about politics.

51:57

You don't talk about those things. But I talking about, you know, crops or your kids, like those, That's

52:05

a very north Korean topic. Right. How the crops look at And

52:10

nobody has device. So everybody's looking at each other's eyes, but here, like I have no clues.

52:17

My neighbor is when you Love

52:19

your Instagram though. Now This,

52:21

well, I do try to like control that though.

52:24

I know what the social media is like does is really horrible.

52:27

So I use it to try to raise awareness, but Yeah,

52:33

No, No, but good job of balancing it.

52:35

Oh yeah. It's very tempting.

52:36

And it's so hard.

52:38

I feel like I didn't understand that.

52:40

Even though I was living in New York, I was going to university there.

52:43

A lot of my friends are like working in finance.

52:45

It's like Manhattan, my in the consulting investment bankers, all very successful.

52:50

I like biggest law firms in the world.

52:53

And like at least 60 to 80% of them go to therapy.

52:56

And then they were like, you need to go to therapy because you are traumatized.

52:59

It's like, what do you mean trauma?

53:01

Right? And then it was really weird in the beginning.

53:04

Why does this? People are not happy.

53:06

They're living on the top of the world, having everything they need.

53:10

Why aren't I happy? And eventually I do understand some parts, but I think the isolation is quite something.

53:18

I didn't expect it to be this much.

53:20

You are lonely and alone here.

53:24

It's true. Mean we are like the loneliest generation or something like that.

53:27

A lot of it does probably have to do with social media.

53:30

That's a whole different show, I

53:32

think right there. Do you ever have dreams or I should say, do you ever have nightmares of like, like you wake up and you're in North Korea?

53:39

Yeah. I mean, I still, I get up and I get bitten and I try to escape.

53:43

And the only very unique thing with north Koreans, whenever you ask them in their dream is always North Korea.

53:50

And that's the thing. You never escape in your subconscious you're there forever.

53:54

Like my mom every night, she's there every night and they're like, nobody escapes in your dream.

54:01

Wow. Well, I've heard you say that.

54:03

You can tell a north Korean by their voice on the phone.

54:07

What is it that you hear oppression.

54:10

Yeah, I can. Totally. So I work with a lot of Chinese brokers.

54:13

I give us people, I send money.

54:16

I get information out. Like some products are too.

54:19

And there are some sketchy Korean ethnic Chinese.

54:23

Right? They did a different ethnicity in China. There are some Koreans who can't do north Korean accent.

54:27

They tried to lie to you say, oh, I'm a nurse here.

54:30

I'm going to help you. Let's work together. Send me cash or something.

54:33

Then when I hear them like, oh no, you're not a nurse.

54:36

Korean is the exact same accent with north Korean broker.

54:40

Even their broker. They oppressed, you hear it right away.

54:44

Before my family got punished, I was sending them money.

54:47

A lot of money. And then talking to a lot of my friends, mothers too.

54:50

And you just hear the question right there.

54:53

How are you talking to them on like a smuggled phone?

54:55

Yeah, it's a Whole progression. So we smell the phone, the border area to North Korea and North Korea gems the form.

55:02

So they have to be in the bicycle, feeding a hoot, hiding it, and then moving around 30 seconds.

55:08

Then there is a calculator.

55:10

They have to go all the way at a time and then call me for like 30 seconds.

55:13

And then we have to use a lot of words, like sugar and candy or it the words.

55:18

Could they hear you? Oh, cause they're using technology to listen to the group.

55:22

Oh, so sugar and candy is like, people are Whatever

55:25

you are trying to get out. Or like information is all about like a lot of grocery store cabbage has a rise, has a core.

55:33

And I have to like read, you know, like, what am I?

55:35

So that's all.

55:38

Is it a smartphone? Cause I feel like encrypted chat is so much easier.

55:42

Usually the internet in North Korea. So we get this the old days, those sliding phone, the Chinese funding, we have, some of them do have smartphones, but the internet is not connected.

55:51

So we call the Chinese phone in America.

55:54

But the Chinese phone, they be small wording kind of answer it.

55:58

So it only works when you're like right on the border.

56:00

Or if I want to talk to somebody inside indoor, the inner corners, Korea, then we turn the corner, north Korean phone and Chinese phone and it turns the speakerphone.

56:10

Right. Okay. What an operation.

56:15

But then his nose as is even more dangerous. So you gotta be like son, like north Korean, you got a, completist talk in a way, but usually you just want to verify.

56:22

I gave somebody there are they still live?

56:25

Cause a lot of people that I love the family, then they know.

56:29

So they try to get money from me.

56:30

But there was like, oh your aunt is there.

56:32

I'm your aunt. Can I get money? And the brokers want to get money, make money from it.

56:36

So, oh, you aren't asking for money.

56:37

So I want to just verify, is this my aunt or not?

56:40

So I said like, oh, how's the, maybe your child has, what grade is he in the school?

56:46

Or like, what's the name?

56:47

Then they tell me like, if they don't know, of course they have no clue.

56:50

Do you do remember that? Like the birthday, when we went to this river and then when you saw this, what do you remember?

56:55

So together if they don't remember, like they are not Because

57:00

there's no banks. People don't know like you can't Venmo someone in North Korea, no banks.

57:04

There's nothing. So how do you even get money to them?

57:06

You just have to have somebody carry it there.

57:09

No, we have to send the money to Chinese brokers bank in China, they get the money out.

57:14

The commissions are sometimes 50%, 60, 70%.

57:17

You don't have a choice.

57:18

The biggest banking business you can get in is so high.

57:22

Then they get the money out and then they wrote it.

57:26

And then like we do Heidi with the plastic bag and then you put a stone and the one like string, and then you throw as hard as you can to the north Korean side and then let the tube to go and let it be the rock.

57:41

You have to really great throwing rock.

57:43

And they will. The thing that you can like do this or somebody going person and going out in all that dangerous.

57:50

So the tomb in rivers just full of like rocks with money wrapped around.

57:54

No, it's very impossible now because the secret is so hard.

57:57

So you have to bring the cards to discard, take the money out of it.

58:01

The nurse can block or gets the money out of the Chinese broker gets money out of it.

58:05

And then it ends up in your family's like very literal amount, A

58:09

crazy operation that is, you've been through so many different circumstances in your life.

58:14

You must feel like it must feel like you've lived a hundred lifetimes, 2000

58:20

years. And I have a Cedar.

58:24

How does helping people escape North Korea work?

58:27

Like what does it cost to get someone?

58:29

Yeah. I mean, I cannot say wild.

58:32

They take mostly, we take them through Thailand.

58:36

Those knows it too.

58:38

Not everybody knows it's again.

58:39

It's the government. Yeah. But we know the location.

58:42

But how we do is that it costs around less than $2,000, like 1800 to get a person out.

58:49

Yeah. From China too. But from North Korea, impossible.

58:53

Oh, so you can't get people out of north.

58:55

We get them Out of the 50,000 or a hundred thousand.

58:58

Can you cannot get out. Oh right.

59:00

Because of the border security, how many north Koreans are in China waiting to escape now, Approximately

59:06

they say around 300,000 people, 300,000.

59:11

Yeah. Mostly women not being trafficked and being sold and raped.

59:14

We met a lot of Korean. They said Korean, Chinese, but it's what do I know when I was in Dandong on the border and I, to this day, wonder how many of them are actually just north Korean?

59:24

And they were, and they were always with old guys, which I thought was really unusual in Korea.

59:28

Yeah. All of them are screens.

59:30

Usually they say they're the ethnic because they cannot speak perfect Chinese.

59:33

So like, why do you have an accent then?

59:35

Oh, because I'm ethnic Chinese.

59:37

The ones that is get very early on in the nineties, they were able to buy the ID.

59:42

So in China called the hookah somebody's haka.

59:46

Right? Because if somebody dies, the family do not report on the police and then said that I did because a lot of children left the city at work, by in China, rural areas.

59:55

A lot of young people go work in the city Who

59:58

code their ID from their village or whatever is just sitting in the drawer or something.

1:00:02

And so those are farmers sell the hookah and then you buy it.

1:00:05

But then like nowadays you the social credit system and everything's on digital, it's really hard to fake it.

1:00:10

But back then, nineties, even the internet wasn't that widely used.

1:00:13

So unless the police will call that town, asking the town around around, do you think that child is alive or died candy for now?

1:00:21

But then Paul is not going to go travel all the way to the countryside and then check it.

1:00:27

So it was those people actually hiding in China and then do those things Is

1:00:32

the bottleneck. Then just funds to get these people out.

1:00:35

If you can't get them out. It's the best thing I imagine.

1:00:38

Like if there's at least a hundred thousand oceans escaped that power's going to be unbelievable and that many people want to speak out.

1:00:44

I think information, the north Koreans come on.

1:00:47

As I said, it's not like they are only escaping themselves.

1:00:50

Most of the north Koreans, which are back to their family and send money information.

1:00:55

So imagine how many people are getting fun from the free world and hearing about the word.

1:01:01

This is useful. Look, we speaking of ads and capitalism, what if we use the ad profits from this episode to get north Koreans out of China?

1:01:09

Can we do that? Not from North Korea, but China.

1:01:12

That is absolutely.

1:01:14

Let's do that. Can we, can I text you after this?

1:01:16

And we'll figure out how to get, I have no idea how to do that.

1:01:19

Okay. Yes, let's do that. Okay. Let's end right there because that's a happy note on the end of this crazy, crazy saga.

1:01:26

Thank you so much for your time.

1:01:28

And for coming in, this has really been, I don't even know if there's not one word I can describe it.

1:01:32

So thank you so much for sharing.

1:01:34

This is just absolutely. Oh, thank you for having me.

1:01:37

It's an honor.

1:01:40

Here's a trailer for another episode of the Jordan harbinger show with Charles Rue here on the Jordan harbinger show.

1:01:46

I was 14. I got my first opportunity to escape North Korea and go to China.

1:01:51

Police come to our house.

1:01:53

We are getting deported, not Korea.

1:01:55

I got transported to a detention center.

1:01:58

They are brainwashing lists for nine months.

1:02:01

I started working in a coal mine when I was paid only in rice.

1:02:04

So one morning instead of entering the mine, I walked up the path and began running.

1:02:10

And the, in the distance I saw a train come to stop.

1:02:13

This is my chance I need to get on the train.

1:02:16

I finally made it to the border town.

1:02:18

I'm already determined the next day, right?

1:02:20

I walked into the river, that device, North Korea and China, which is yellow fever.

1:02:24

And then I slowly walked into the water.

1:02:26

I slipped on a rock and a lid on a screen, a floodlight or something like back.

1:02:30

And I heard a soldier screaming at me.

1:02:33

Oh man, stop, stop.

1:02:37

But I was shoot. The guard was kept screaming at me, but he never pulled the trigger.

1:02:41

And then I went into the cornfield.

1:02:43

I'm in China now.

1:02:44

So I embarked on a long journey to Saudi station.

1:02:47

I got Thailand.

1:02:48

That was the best day of my life going to Thai prison.

1:02:52

And then I was trying to apply for South Korea, but they didn't recognize me as refugee.

1:02:57

And they're like, we would have to send you back to China.

1:03:00

Chinese government sent me back to North Korea, but you guys don't want to tell me.

1:03:06

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. He escaped the police.

1:03:08

He had to run with secret police in China.

1:03:10

I mean, this guy just has an absolutely amazing sense of survival and story.

1:03:14

And that's episode 84 with Charles Ru confessions of a north Korean escape artist part one and part two episode 84 of the Jordan harbinger show.

1:03:24

Make sure you check it out.

1:03:25

So

1:03:25

I

1:03:25

spoke

1:03:25

the

1:03:25

truth,

1:03:25

did

1:03:25

a

1:03:25

different

1:03:25

type

1:03:25

of

1:03:25

episode

1:03:25

with

1:03:25

Yoni

1:03:30

park. It's interesting about her being on a kill list from Kim Jong-un from the regime and finding that liberating.

1:03:35

I don't know if I would find it liberating, but then again, I've never been on a kill list, at least not.

1:03:40

As far as I know, bill Browder, episode number three of the show is also on Putin's kill list.

1:03:45

Other investigative journalists I've spoken with have similar feelings about being hunted, maybe it's deliberating, but yeah, they don't fly Russian airlines.

1:03:53

For example, her book, which is linked in the show notes goes into detail on the situation in North Korea, her human trafficking story, it discusses the negotiations on the price she was sold for it, et cetera.

1:04:03

It's really just surreal. And again, a harrowing tale.

1:04:06

I think you'll really enjoy. I enjoy reading those accounts.

1:04:08

I've read pretty much everything on North Korea and the place.

1:04:11

If you haven't been, which most of you have not is really surreal.

1:04:14

I talk about my trips there quite often, episode 4 35 and 4 39 were just stories from me and Gabriel Mizrahi, who, you know, from feedback Friday on our trips to North Korea.

1:04:24

Cause both of us have been four or five times each sometimes separately.

1:04:27

Big, thank you at a yummy park.

1:04:29

Her book will be linked in the show. Notes. Always use our links.

1:04:32

If you don't mind to buy books from the guests, it does help support the show.

1:04:36

Audio books included worksheets for episodes are in the show.

1:04:39

Notes. Transcripts for episodes are in the show notes.

1:04:41

There's a video of this interview and many others that always go up on our YouTube channel at Jordan harbinger.com/youtube and our clips channel with cuts that don't make it to the show or highlights from the interviews that you can't see anywhere else.

1:04:53

Jordan harbinger.com/clips is where you can find that I'm at Jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn.

1:05:01

I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships, using systems and tiny habits.

1:05:06

The same ones that I use everyday, including the software that we made to keep in touch with folks.

1:05:10

That's our six-minute networking course.

1:05:11

The course is free. I don't need your credit card info.

1:05:14

There's no sneaky stuff going on.

1:05:15

It's just for you. Jordan harbinger.com/course, I want to teach you how to dig the well before you get thirsty.

1:05:21

And most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course and contribute to the course.

1:05:25

Come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong.

1:05:28

This show is created an association with podcast one.

1:05:31

My team is Jen harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, milli Ocampo Ian Baird, Josh Ballard and Gabriel.

1:05:37

Ms. Rahi. Remember we rise by lifting others.

1:05:40

The fee for this show is that you share it with friends.

1:05:42

When you find something useful or interesting.

1:05:44

If you know somebody who's into North Korea, harrowing stories, or just a fan of UME park, please share this episode with them.

1:05:50

Hopefully you find something great in every episode of this show.

1:05:53

So please share the show with those you care about in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show.

1:05:59

So you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.

1:06:04

This episode is also sponsored in part by China.

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1:06:55

Special, thanks to our sponsor Glenfiddich single malt, scotch whiskey thanks to our sponsor, 579 Single Malt Scotch Whiskey. lately. You've heard me talk about Glenfiddich and heard me talk about Glenfiddic and challenging the traditional notion's commonly portrayed culture of what it means to be wealthy and live a life of riches. Glenfiddich believes that beyond the material, a life of wealth and riches is also about family community values and fulfilling Glen 579 believes that beyond the material, a life of wealth and riches is also about family community values and fulfilling work These are the values that led Glen 579 to become the world's leading single malt Scotch whiskey. This week's guest, Park, exemplifies these values, and you'll find out why later on in the episode. More from our partners at Glen 579 coming up later in the show, coming up next on the Jordan show. said I get a and I get beaten and I try to escape and the only very unique game in North Korea and see whenever you ask them in their dream is always North Korea. And that's the thing. You never escape and you're subconscious. You're there forever. Like my mom, every night, she's there. Every night and there like nobody escapes in your dream. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game. Astronauts, entrepreneur spies, psychologists, even the occasional Russian chess grand master, four star general, or former Gihati. Each episode turns our guests' wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker. Now 579 you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about it, Our starter packs are where you can do that. These are collections of your favorite episodes organized by popular topics that help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Just visit jordan harbinger dot com slash starts to get started or to help somebody else get started. And I always appreciate it when you do that. Today, part two with Park, if you haven't heard part one, go back and grab it. She has escaped from North Korea. She's a popular online personality and activist right now. Her story is harrowing and incredible. And I think you're really going to enjoy and I think you're really gonna enjoy it. If you haven't heard part one again, go back and grab If you haven't heard part one, again, go back and grab that. Otherwise, here we go. With part two, with Park. And by the way, if you're wondering how I manage to book all these great creators, authors, thinkers every week, it's because of my network, and I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty, how to build your own network for free. Over at jordan harbinger dot com slash course, and most of the guests on our show subscribe and contribute to the course. So come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. Now here's part two with Yonamine Park. You thought the leader could read your mind. I know that there's these self criticism sessions as well. We are kind of like I guess it's kind of like Catholic confession where you air your you air your own failings, but you also have to kind of embark on other people. Right? Yeah. That's a difference. It's more like adding Chinese people also during the culture revolution, they denounced people -- Right. -- exactly the same thing. Even children have to do it. This is where they completely teach you how to how to teach you that you don't matter. Mhmm. And make sure to, like, get dignity of human beings get rid of that at the point where you are not even on being anymore. Only reason you exist because of the Kims. That is the only right life purpose. So you write down the verses that Kim Jong un said, which is maybe students' job is studying hard and working hard for a new party. But it's, like, this week, based on his, like, it's, like, a fiber versus. We have the pull Fiber versus. It's, like, you know, that Kim said, I don't know who said, but maybe prior already for him. Right? Sure. And then he said, he said this, but compared to his words, I was not 579 for revolutionary. To deal later, like, for his immersedness, he me my sin. Now, this is a difference. It's maybe catheter Is is maybe catholic church you can do that too. Maybe God said this. This way, I didn't do a good job. Mhmm. But all the other things that you can never say what I did right. It has So it's only one one direction. You always have to be a always have the real sinner. You always have the beauty. You always have to 579 great friends, sorry, for being you. They made you feel like you are not worthy of anything, degrading you. After that, you have to pick somebody and that is called even kids. So entire week, Saturday, this 579 and recession coming in, so you will look for people's fault because you cannot get away and not criticizing somebody. Oh, wow. So it's a real thing that you look at other people. So you're only gonna learn how to look at other people's behaviors buying on them and their 579. So your the distrust is programmed from the jump in your classmates. right? Because you, you won't say, oh, I didn't do my homework last night because I was watching something with my Right? Because you you won't say Oh, I didn't do my homework last night because I was watching something with my parents. It's like someone will tell on you and then you look bad in front of everyone. So you never 579. Threat and you get punished. And if it if you did anything actually bad -- Yeah. -- then you're in even worse trouble. So it's just finding any reason to denounce anyone -- Yeah. -- for any reason. Include yourself. And there's this kind of code. You have to criticize somebody. So it's a real job to finding it. well. Who's doing well, what are they doing What are they doing wrong? Because you have to do safe phrases and meet other people. Oh my gosh. It's exhausting to think about. They imagine being in school like middle school high school is a six years program. But since during the sixty years, how many times did you you're gonna criticize somebody. How is it literally? It's every Saturday. Hundreds of times. Thousands of times. I 579 artists and official every two days. Because they think the artist's minds are more vulnerable to change and corrupt by capitalist. Yeah. They're right. Yeah. So they have to do every two days. Then you how many times you have to hate somebody and criticize your friend, your comment. Sure. So that's how they make sure everybody hates each other. Everybody to not trust each do not trust each other. Since there's no trust, you can't agree with your friend. Like, all right, today, you complain about my dirty uniform 579. Like, alright, today you complain about my dirty 579, tomorrow, complain about you. You can't even make any kind of You can't even make any kind of Yeah. So when everybody's divided, who wins the party win? The party wins. Yeah. Yeah. Because the division is helping them. They do everything they could to divide every single one of you. And that's why I was so shocked when I came to America. Like, people are so trusting. Mhmm. Like, they are so trusting and, like, unbelievable how trusting these people are. I'm talking about your feelings with your therapist. How do you trust? Is it complete based on trust? Isn't it? Your therapist here even if they aired your dirty ondry, people would just go, wow, that's really unprofessional. They wouldn't be like, oh, Yeonmi has trauma. That's terrible. We're gonna laugh at her. No. We would think the therapist is a terrible human. 579 sharing that. Right? It's the opposite then. Yeah. Therapy is a little bit weird coming from a place where you're supposed to denounce and not have any secrets. It was weird. I don't I I'm honestly I still don't think I can be completely honest with therapist -- Mhmm. -- because I must still have that trauma. Mhmm. But with the friends, I'm becoming more like awesome. Just tell them how I 579. That has been amazing because in North Korea, you don't talk about how you fear. You know, nobody asks how you 579, what do you think. So it's a really new thing for me to talk about your feelings. Yeah. Yeah. That's a it's gotta be so hard to looking at a relationship in North Korea versus a a relationship here, you have no model for a healthy, like, 579, for example. Zero. Zero. It's been very hard. Yeah. Yeah. When you were married before, did you find it hard to share actual feelings and secrets with your ex husband? Yeah. I think communication was a main issue. Yeah. It was very hard. Because if it's like, what do you think? And you're like, I have no opinion because, you know, you're not used to having or you'd never thought about it -- Yeah. -- things can bottle up. Right over time. Or so, I think, you know, giving the benefit of that. In North Korea, if somebody says anything, oh my god, you're reporting on me. Here's something doing bad m. Right? But here in America, people really give you 579 of that. Yeah. We're supposed to. Sure. Not in politics. I feel like Not in politics. Not on Twitter. Yeah. Everywhere else. Yeah. When it comes to personal relationship, people do in general. I think people are very child over here when it comes to interpretation. You said, oh, can I be a little bit later to the interview? And I didn't think, oh, she doesn't wanna do it. You're right. Okay. She's got a lunch It's far away. I don't know. Yeah. That's that's interesting. You're right. We are as a culture. And in fact, it's almost a virtue here to trust -- Trust people. Yeah. They wins when you trust everybody wins. Right. And not the dick either so. They lose. Right. They lose. Right. They want me to not to That's why it's so scary now in America's house and everything flipping. It's just so unbelievably scary. What do you think of China heading more towards authoritarianism too? It was, I mean, CCP has never been kind of like a global leader in human rights, but it's definitely getting It was I mean, CCP has never been kind of like a global leader in human rights, but it's definitely getting worse. And at this point you don't even need a human sources to report on them. They got the facial recognition, they got social credit The facial recognition. They got social credit system. So why you write online -- Mhmm. -- you know, why you throw on the street. The traffic lights that you don't obey and how you park, everything, how you spend, what you spend, and what you watch. They calculate all your score already for you. So in a way, China is more like, it's not a brave anymore. In a way, like, if somebody asks me, would you choose Regime's ninety ninety four or brave word? I would choose brave word. I'm so sorry. Rather be dumb and happy and be 579. Mhmm. And healthy. Right? Because I know what 579 feels like opposite. I mean, there's, of course, I wanna be free and suffering like what we are right now. But China is it's not like becoming brave in a world. They are in a way like eighty four, like big brother. Mhmm. And don't think that regime's ever gonna make you wanna happy and take care of you. No. I mean, I study Chinese on online. Mhmm. And my teachers have told me things. I'll ask them about social credit score, often they don't wanna talk about it. But if I if, you know, you'd develop a little rapport with somebody, they told me that one of their colleagues who was a man when you use WeChat, which is like there, what's that version? It'll say underneath his profile photo, like, this person does not pay his debt. Or something. And his social credit score is low. I forget the exact phrase. But basically, like, imagine I'm sending you a text message, like, alright, we're ready for you now and below my profile photo, it says, like, this guy never pays his 579 back and isn't allowed to fly on airplanes. It's so creepy. Right? And you're just like, wanna do this interview, Jordan's not allowed to fly because he's a bad parker. Yeah. I mean, it's just unbelievable, like, how this award is changing so fast. We thought that democracy was winning. The freedom was winning -- Yeah. -- appearing not. No. Apparently not. Yeah. Yikes. Okay. I think a lot of people are wondering how you ended up in the United States, think lot people are wondering how you ended up in the United States. Right? Because you can't just walk out of North Korea very easily. In fact, now it's very it's almost impossible now. You don't hear about people escaping now because the border has been fortified by China and North Korea from what I under stand. Yeah. North Korea literally put the country can I afford electricity, put the highly electrified wire fences? Entire entire border of North Korea. So the entire country became a consideration camp. Mhmm. Not only that they put the I mean, with the machine guns, with the guards, every meters. And on every ten meters. On top of that, they bury the land of mines. Oh, that's really extreme. Yeah. I was in China a few years ago in Dandong, which I mentioned earlier, we took a boat trip onto that river and the captain was like, it's all Chinese people and then me and my run, and they were like, don't take pictures of the North Korean guards were stationed on the waters edge because they'll get aggressive. It's a Chinese tour. Nobody listens to anybody. Yeah. So these old Chinese people are raising up their camera. And we saw the North Korean guys doing like waving us off and finally, one got so pissed. He raised up his rifle and aimed it right at the boat. Yeah. And all those Chinese people just started 579. And me and my friend were like, oh, we're gonna die. We're gonna die. And the boat captain comes on as yelling in Chinese, you know. And and I said, what's he yelling in oh, something about don't take photos. These guys have no sense of humor on the North Korean border. These guys are not gonna play around. I mean, they captured a lot of American journalists. Mhmm. They're at the border and then the investigation on North Korea they came across the board and captured them sent back to North Korea and put them for in the prison. Mhmm. In case of Internet had to go and rest get them eventually. Oh, yeah. Wasn't that Lisa Ling's sister? Yeah. She said though she was trying to run across the river or something like that. She wasn't at the North Korean side. Oh, she was She was on the Chinese side. That's even that's That's When the the cars. Yeah. Wow. I didn't know that. I thought she had sort of, like, screwed around by going over there to take photos. There was a guy who was, like, Robert Park, one of the missionaries. Mhmm. He thought he wanted to bring God's gospel to North Korea. Korea. So she walked over from that to North So she walked over from that to North Korea. The vibrant is and end. Oh, Oh, that's horrible. And then they tortured him to the point where cannot function as a as a man, and he tried to come in his shoes man times afterwards. There's a a guy who used to listen to my show Kenneth Bay. Do you know that? Oh, yeah. The Canadian. Yeah. So he was in prison for, like, a dozen years or something like that 579 bringing leaving bibles around in a hotel. It's just the country is extreme as we've discussed here. So the border's more fortified now. I don't want to get too tied down man. How do most people escape in the past? How did most people escaped from North Korea How did most people escape from North Korea? Most people escape in nine days. In the night? The gray 579 began. Mhmm. So that's when the regime's so. Kim Jong un didn't actually really care. And if you don't wanna stay here, why would you not let them, like, go? Right? So is it going to let them go? And she was fine with that. But then he realized his privileges only go China, they go South Korea, they go to America, they go other countries. They became rated what they thought they are exposing us now. Mhmm. Right? That's how Northrand 579 came out and giving the testament to the US, the comment, the White House. Yeah. Doing what you're doing. Right. Right. So they were, like, exposing the regime. So now, North Korea's keep condemned by the UN about the human rights situation. So another okay. No. We cannot let the 579 escape anymore. And there's no surprise when they go, they don't just escape, they go and they make money and send the money back to their family members. Nobody in North Korea escaped saying I'm gonna have good life myself. Mhmm. They escaped because they can sacrifice themselves and make money and can send me back North Korea and their family members. So then they when they send money, they don't just get money to get information. Right. That is where, like, the biggest killer for the they their lives being exposed. Right, of course. Because if I escape from North Korea and I'm a waiter in South Korea and I'm sending back the annual salary that my family makes every month and it's only part of my income and I have a low level job, people start to go, wait a minute. So he works at a restaurant in South Korea, and he's basically a millionaire compared to how we are. Yeah. We gotta get out of here. Right. That's not That's not good. And then word travels fast. Exactly. Like, how 579 that family bought, you know, has a car now or whatever. Right? It's a whole thing. Yeah. So that's really changed the system, so they stopped the 579. So eventually, they started putting more pressure on the border. But when Kim Jong took over, oh my God, I mean, how can he worsen his 579, but he was a lot worse. Yeah. He's a lot evil. So how did you escape from the DPR guy? I think a lot of people, by the way, I say North Korea or DPRK, does it matter? It matters. It matters. Okay. DPRK is a democratic papers. Right. It's a joke of a name. Yeah. Yeah. And that's about North Korea wants to be cool. Oh, okay. Well, thanks for them. North Korea. I know it's scary. So, I mean, I don't really care about it. When it comes that. I think that I don't want to respect the vision at to that, I think that I don't want to respect weeks ago. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So I crossed the frozen river from North Korea to China, and that was actually right before the wire fences went up. So I got very lucky. Yeah. Yeah. Charles Rhyu told me he basically swam through a river and they were shooting at him, but they probably either didn't have bullet so they couldn't see him. Yeah. And so he made it out as well. Mhmm. Now it seems impossible. No. And there's a venue go to China. Chinese or subordinate is, like, very secure. Like, back then, they were, like, okay. There are poor people coming over. Maybe give them some food and then they're gonna back. Right? We usually did. They go to China. We're in North Korea. We are not like a Syrian or like Mexican 579. There's democracy somewhere that we wanna go where the freedom is. Right? We're like we're starving. So if we just wanna go somewhere they give us 579. And if we get food of you and go back to our homeland. Mhmm. So a lot of those kids will eat and go to China, take 579 food and come home and feed their family members. And their friends. And China had no problem with it, but then they also saw that how North Korean women were going after and then started condemning the human trafficking that they face. To China or so, nurse could complain to them. This is our national security. Mhmm. If you let nurse can go, it hurts us. So can you catch them to us back? So China wants a buffer state between South Korea and the United States presence in South Korea. And North Korea is that 579 state. And also, I think there's an tell me if you agree with this. There's an element of the Chinese Communist Party saying, hey, you think we're terrible, but at least we're not North Korea, look how bad it is over there. And as long as that regime exists, they can sort of say, like, we're the only ones who can control them. But that's the thing. They are using as a leveraged with the USA because North Korea is only solved by China. Mhmm. North Korea only exists because of China. Sure. Yeah. But Kim Jong Un cannot exist without Xin and Ping. So when the US wanna discuss about North Korea's threat, they have to go back with Chinese. Mhmm. So that's why they are using as a leverage. primary leveraged that is. It's so sociopathic to me that there are politicians going, we're just gonna let all these people suffer because it keeps this guy in power, which keeps us from having to worry about other issues. It's so crazy to me that that even is it just sort of shows you, like, how much bullshit we tell ourselves about caring about the integrity of people like human rights. I mean, it's just pure nonsense. It's a laugh 579 both. Yeah. It's this joke. It's pure not like we can see the concentration camps. We know that there are people in there that miserable. We have countless accounts of this. And it's like, oh, we'll we'll talk about it again maybe later. I don't want this year. Is that like 11 millions of his population severely managed. He's not even bothered to lie at this not empowered to lie at this point. He used to lie. Yeah. Like, oh, look at us. We are happy, strong country. Like, this year. It's like, yeah, they are it's like, yeah, they are starving. So what? Wow. I'm saying exactly. He's like, yeah. So what? No accountability at all anymore. Yeah. Not that they're of They don't even pretend. Right now yeah. No pretend. So you don't have the pretend anymore? Because what can you do? We got the nukes. We have the power. So what can you do? My god. How did you get the idea to escape? Was it just you were hungry? I was was hungry. And then if you see North Korea and night from the satellite picture is like the darkest place in the world. It got no electricity. So in the border town, I was looking at Chinese side. And they had the lights coming out, and they had a high road, like, ways where cars going by. Mhmm. So we also had the rumors in North Jersey that China dogs eat rice. Like, so Kim Il sung promised us that I'm gonna make sure that my people are gonna eat white rice. With the right of midst to. A midst to? Okay. Yes. So all North Korean wanted to hold their life and time for the revolution was it? The white rice and the the white rice. And a mister. It wasn't like if you wanna get private jet. Yeah. It's very, very low. Right? Any country in, like, some sudden he says that they can feed all these people. Yeah. Chicken and, like, rice. That's, like, nothing. And that's what we promised. And that's the comments cannot achieve that dream at all. They're so poor. In North Korea, so we we heard that, like, dogs in white rice in China. And I thought, like, the most bizarre thing I've ever heard. Counter, there's a place that always rice. Right? Right. Like, how can that be? How can that be? It's like almost like somebody telling, oh, their aliens came and took you, and then they, you know, they come busy every night. Like, that kind of most absurd thing you hear. Right. Like, why would you feed a dog, rise? It just doesn't compute. Yeah. No. I mean, in North Korea, dogs eat poop, literally. That's how they survive. And then people try and steal it from them to get their coupons. As you mentioned, that's my gosh. So you're hungry and you just say, hey, look, if they've got electricity in cars, they probably have food. Right. Mhmm. That's right though. I guess, maybe there's a 579 bar that is like, I was watching this documentary there about like nine eleven. There were people who were jumping out of that Right. Exactly. That's situation. I don't know. If I jump out, there is a life for me. But what can you do to burning is burning? I mean burning and you have no way out. So you gotta jump and see what happens. That's how North Koreans do it. That's how you 579. Just Of course. I might die doing this I'm definitely gonna die hungry here. So Yeah. I mean, there's no chance of me surviving in that country if I can escape. So why don't I just jump and see what happens? Wow. And so how did you hatch the plan? I I had a older sister who I was thirteen and I had sister was sixteen in two thousand seven. She escaped first few days before me, and she left me a note. Saying, go find this lady, she's gonna help you. So I went to her with my mom, and then she said, like, yeah, I can help you to go to China. But I so that spray. It was no point of me even asking, oh, why are you helping me? Right. And also, if you already don't trust anyone, this is a desperate sort of hail Mary move anyways. Yeah. So why why bother getting the d tails. Yeah. This this doesn't matter even she cares to me. I'm I'm dead anyway. Like, it just didn't it didn't all cure to me. I had to ask, why are you having I had to ask why are you helping me. So because you are so desperate. Right? Whatever thing gonna get you out, you you wanna get out. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Youngley Park. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by ten thousand. Did I tell you I've been working out quite a bit three times week in fact in my garage doing box jumps, squats, getting my glutes going, doing little mobility to keep myself limber and strong in my crusty, geriatric age. You can tell Jen wrote this copy. If you're looking for great workout gear, Ten thousand cannot be beat. 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Thanks so much for listening to and supporting this show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps the lights on around here. We take all those discount codes and special URLs and we put them all in one place so you don't have to memorize them. You can check out all the sponsors for yourself at jordan harbinger dot com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support us. Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals is where that is, and don't forget we've got worksheets 579 many episodes if you want some of the drills and exercises talked about during the show in one easy place. That link is in the show notes, jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast is where you can find it. Now, back to Young Meat Park. You end up being trafficked and sold in China. And the whole story is in the book by the original link in the show notes. I'm not gonna make you go through again because you do talk about it a lot in other shows as well. But this situation is by all accounts horrifying and harrowing and you end up having to to sell your own mother for food. It's just Like, the sneak preview is it's some of the most terrible things that you can imagine happening and it happens over and over and over. And -- Mhmm. -- the people that you meet are all universally exploiting you and and everyone who they come into contact with. It's like, this is like the underbelly of sort of Chinese mafia, human trafficking, like this is like the underbelly of sort of Chinese mafia human trafficking. Right? Yeah. So how do you eventually get away from that situation? So when North Korea may go to China because of the one child policy, Right now, there are forty million men 579 find women Mhmm. -- especially in the rural areas and the numbers keep going up. So women being sold in the four different places. One is human trafficking is where you're sold to a man in the village who will have a disability or crazy or whatever it is. To sometime they buy one girl and what their entire town or what their entire brothers in their family. Oh, wow. So you're basically as sex slave at that point, not like a regular wife. No. No. You're not a wife. They watch you when you go to bathrooms. They don't want you to run away. So that's one. Second place, we are the prostitution. They put you in all these brothers give you, like, twenty times all day. And then women's 579, so they give you drugs. So they make you become drug at it. Yeah. So women just do it because they want a drug. So you have give it twenty, thirty times a day in the cycle. Third is where you go to organ harvesting. Oh. China is the biggest exporter of organs. Yeah. I did a whole show about this. Yeah. So they also use North Koreans to scare them and take organs out. The last place is a chat room where these brokers put in a setting another facility with a locked door and put his curves in front of a cam. And the customers such as South Koreans, and then show their buzz x cam. Mhmm. So, among the four, why would you choose? Like all jokes aside, I would obviously choose the camgirl option because at least I'm not getting touched by it. Actually get waved by. Right. But nobody comes to your room. Right? You just show them in your body. So I chose that. Yeah. I initially have sold it by my man's raped and then at the end of the journey, I was finally able to go to chat room. There I heard about South Korea, and I heard that there is a way out of China. But you already knew South Korea existed. Right? But not like they're handling good, like, not totaling a southern of North Korea. They are 579 the language so much. So, Joseon is Korea like it's So South Korea, they closed North Korea, like book just like a North of Korea -- Okay. -- South Korea, but their name is Dehan Ming book. And we call them, like, south of North Korea. Really? So So North Korea just calls South Korea southern North Korea. Yeah. That's ridiculous. And those Korea, South Africa, then, like, northern South Korea. Korea. So the language difference was gosh. So so language difference was huge. And then I did not know that I was a North Korean, they said that it Yeah. Yeah. So Joseph is a way we knew of, so South Korea did not have a name Jordan at So Joseon is what we knew of. So South Korea didn't have a name, Joseon at all. He was, like, there are mingo. He was, like, what the heck is there mingo? Right? I did not. That was, like, our southern part of North Korea was. And then I was talking to these people and it's like a girl I'm from Diammingle. It was like, what is Diammingle? And then we had a 579 friend who was working in the chat to And she said, I know the missionaries. And then 579 you go study bible with them, and then they're gonna help us to escape to South Korea. By that was fifteen years old. Fifteen. Yeah. So I was there in two years in China. Two years. Mhmm. Two years of unspeakable sort of treatment and then Bible study, and this is your introduction to sex, Two years of unspeakable sort of treatment and then Bible stuff. And this is your introduction to sex. right? You said before, you had no idea the concept of sex until your mother was sexually assaulted, essentially right in front of You said before you had no idea the concept of sex until your mother was sexually assaulted essentially right in front of you. And then that became your daily existence for those few years. So you're doing this bible study with the missionaries, and then how do they prepare you to escape? Like, what's their plan? Prey? And fasting. Praying in fat you and did you tell them you already spent your life fasting and it didn't it didn't help? Yeah. No. Take care. A lot of fasting and praying. And memorizing the fiber versus So there's no practical training for, like, here's how you're gonna escape. It's No. They don't give you a physical training. They don't give you a gear. They don't give you the right clothing is your you need the miracle to do it, which is because you are gonna go cross the coffee dessert into Mongolia from China in the minus four degrees. You're gonna cross the Go Bay Desert on foot in negative forty degree and just hope that you end up in Mongolia. Yeah. And then discovered by human beings in the middle of the Go Bay Desert. What set So what kind of plan is that? So your survival rate is very, you know, like, ninety nine percent and you're not by making. Oh my god. And, you mean, like, a call by soldiers, so you need to meet a That's why they make you pray and truly brew like waiting for God to sign to go. I know you help people escape now and I assume you have a better Oh, we don't use zero. We used cars and transport them to use cars and transport the event to transit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we didn't have money. These people, we have to raise money to transport them, drive them. But going to Mongolia, you don't need a broker. They just give you a compass. Why a new walk? Follow the north in, like, the west part and then cross eight wire 579. And 579, that's kinda Mongolia or something. That is just mind blowing. So you're crossing the Go Bay Desert. How long does it take? It only took one day. One day. Because we chose the coldest time of the year. So the guards would think, like, who's gonna be crazy enough to because the other times the security is so tight, and there are guards in China, preventing nobody can escape. Can shoot you. So if you choose a cordless time, then even though it's in very high secured, a tight border, that's the people think, oh, nobody's crazy enough to cross right now. They're watching movies and -- Yeah. -- okay. It's so freezing. They don't wanna go outside even themselves. So we chose that time and then we crossed one day. But the the hardest thing in the desert is that you don't know if you're going straight or backwards on the side or Yeah. So cool. It's nothing because you indicate you you're going forward. You just have a compass and you're like, I hope this thing works. Because of that is actually in the middle of the ocean. Right. Nothing kills you. Where you're going? There's no landmarks on the horizon. Nothing. So that was, like, where I shout to, like, I'm not sure if I just keep going, circling, circling now. We give the rumors where there's some defectors do that. Code days and circling, the same thing again, again, come back the same spot. So then we go, like, okay. Let's leave our 579 here. So when we come back, maybe we came back here. Yeah. That's how we went. Moving along, leaving some stuff and knowing we've been here. Thankfully, we only got discovered next day by Mongolian soldiers. So the Mongolian soldiers are used to seeing North Koreans crawling crossing the border of of these wire fences. So then is it a warm welcome or is it kind of like you just get arrested? They use a gun, I put your hands up and you crossed the border a gun, like, put your hands up. And you cross the border legally. So it doesn't matter your child or man, and then they told us they're going to send us to China back and then send to North Korea. Which they're not really gonna do. They have done that. They have done that. Because it's so inconvenient for them to go back to base, call the top people, get in style, careers, so much work for them. So It's just 579 they can hide. I mean, usually, South Chinese soldiers don't even volatile rest. They shoot them all, and the animals come into you. They just shoot you. Yeah. Oh my god. Well, they use in a border. They shoot to kill that shoot a kiloher, they don't bother to rescue. You gotta shoot them if you see any form object there. So they just don't wanna be ball too much work for them too much paperwork, they had to fill out when we cut them, how we cut them. Right? Mhmm. So this should you. And then, like, animals gonna do the job for them. That's awful. Yeah. So, obviously, that didn't happen to you. You got taken in by Mongolian military 579 boarding boarding boarding boarding guards. And then they said they were going to send us boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding boarding. Gonna kill ourselves. Right? Your plan was to kill yourself. Oh, we I mean, North Carolina is like a dog Jewish people when there is Holocaust. Right. We already die when we get caught. And then they eventually swelled in and helped us to go to South Korea. The thing that I don't understand and that I don't, I can't quite wrap my mind around is they've seen refugees come across the border over and The thing that I don't understand and that I don't I can't quite wrap my mind around is they've seen refugees come across the border over and over. It's not like this is the first time they've seen it. I don't know why they can't have plan for this or they're saying, oh, we're gonna send back. I mean, they must know that what they're doing is heartless and cruel and they just don't I mean, they must know that what they're doing is heartless and cruel. They just don't care. Yeah. I mean, for them, they're like, it's fun. It's so 579 for seeing people begging for their life. It's a desperate landscape. We do the thing. Human nature is horrible. When humans are not being educated and civilized, you can become barbarians. And this is a thing about human nature that You know, people who have a special people became the guards in the concession camp. In the last Germany, normal people did that. And I think that's why we need to wear of our nature. Kids will just never knew what compassion was, I guess. So they just it was really fun for them and we didn't get cared, but one of my 579, mom's 579, she swallowed the pears. And then they 579 her had to take her to hospital and then she never came back fully. Because she thought they were gonna send her back. So Yeah. Because that's what they said. Right. So a lot of evil. Yeah. What separates you, someone who escaped North Korea, versus somebody who decides to stay? What do you think the difference is? Somebody, if they can 579 to staying behind it. He gets like they were not as desperate as me. Mhmm. For me was 579 I didn't escape, I would not even made a few more days there. Because I just didn't have. So you weren't thinking like freedom, you're just thinking rice food, weren't thinking like, 579. You're just thinking rice. Just 579. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. Wow. Getting starved is worse than being raped. The worst torture is being starved. 579 if you don't need you die -- Mhmm. -- and before you die from starvation, you lose me. You lose your mind. That's how most undignified 579 of dying from starvation. That's why cannibalism happening in North Korea because they hallucinate. Cannibalism. Yeah. So some others eat their children because they they throw their children more dogs. Could they go crazy when you don't eat? And then they wake up and then, like, what happened to my child? And then they just Oh, man. It's the real stories. You're getting these stories, I assume, through the network of other defectors and It's regarding action documents at the COI report. Yeah. And it's based on truth. So there is a direct to middle movie too. Any nurse who when we were there, we are actually, the policeman was saying, there's a he 579. So mom was holding their baby. Going near the the river and then making a fire and then boiling the water. And then she was boiling her baby So harassment costs, so these things you hear when you're North Korea. So, I mean, if we hear, like, just don't go by the means at that in the black market, there's somebody selling meat very cheap price. And then, like, we all know, like, what they're selling. I mean, you can tell by the bones also in the meat 579 it's Yeah. I mean, 579, I was so poor that we couldn't afford the meat, so we didn't have to go there. Wow. Yeah. So people are selling like their own children's meat in the market. A lot of people die from starvation. So you can just grab them, like, their bodies 579 on the rivers. And the train station when you got a tons of body stacked, so they can just get them and serve the bones and make the broth. Right? What's up with the dead bodies at the train station? Because I've seen dead bodies in North Korea, and the weirdest part is, I'll see it, and fifteen other people will see it, and our guides will say, I don't know what you're talking about. Like they're pretending that they can't see it. Wow. Yeah. So It's on the road and the transition. Because in North Korea, train from one city to the other city. In South Africa, it takes thirty minutes. Takes months sometimes because the electricity, you have to push your train. Because notice You have to push train. I mean, that's not possible. How do you do that? You do. Hundreds of thousands people come. I'm gonna show you the picture later after this what that you can use in the video 579 you want to what it looks like. Yeah. We'll link it in the show notes if you wanna use, like, text it to me after. Yeah. You can push it train. I guess 579 there's hundreds of people pushing the back of a train, it'll move a little bit. That's wild, though. Yeah. You're not going up a hill. That's for sure. Sometimes, yeah, you you there's a hear that train cannot go. Literally so low, and people have to go have to train out. This is just unfreeaken believer. I mean, this you gotta think 579 you're running that country, you know that it's a horrible place and you've done nothing to improve the situation. Do you think Kim Jong Un is evil himself or is he just part of the system that's set up by his father and grandfather and he's tracked? Because he know he's gotta know what's going on. He went to school in Switzerland. Okay, sir. So he knows exactly what's going. He knows why he meant why it's -- Yeah. -- how he meant supposed to treated. But that's why it's a pure evil. Yeah. Like, he's not brainwashed. He has seen the real world. So you cannot say that, like, he was brand washed, you know, he has no choice. Like, no, he has in the world. The little North Korea study, they go shopping in Paris. Literally. They go skiing Switzerland. I mean, they go to the best person in the world in traveling study. They live like the kings and Queens, and Kim Jong Un has his own pleasure squad. What is the pleasure squad? Because I've read about this, and it's a purvey question, so pardon me, but people are curious about this. So pleasure squad is every year. The 579 have to meet their court out again. It's everything's court out, the order from party. Every region have to submit a girl who is a virgin and who is pretty and meets all government's data. Like the major high luke all of it. Right? And also family backgrounds. So each year, they collect all the words from entire country. And only the ones pretty enough and the good backgrounds in the Virgin's going to Pyongyang. From there, they also select giving Kim Jong un the picture. Like, who do you want this year? So he picks twenty five for a year. Each year, he gets only twenty five. I mean, like, only twenty five women, girlfriends, like, that's all Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a lot, especially for a guy who Kim, Jong-un not in a great seems like a lot. Especially for a guy who came Jong Un, not into great shape, and his father was even worse shape. I mean, these are old dudes. They're probably not, well, I won't go there. And then other girls going to other type of 579. Mhmm. Then they divide these girls into different groups. A satisfaction group. He's a the sex group. The happiness group is a massage group. Third group is like healthcare. They give him the, like, you know, other head issues. Old school is being trained for that. Mhmm. And their primary is around from sixteen or seventeen to twenty to twenty three. What are the parents think? Do they know that this is what's happening? Or are they like, oh, you're gonna learn how to dance? There's Not the most glorious thing that you're gonna serve your nation. Yeah. But not only that, the North Korean says that when you go or you don't get paid, but you get fed. If you fed three times a day in North Korea, you are the most previous person in in I mean, in there. So in America, all these people get friends talking about how hard is like, I don't get it. Oh, you mean all of us are fat because we're eating too much and we can't stop? No. No. You're not hearing in America, like, to be happy, takes a lot more. Oh, sure. Right. In North Korea, being fat is the biggest privilege you can get in your life. So when these girls go there, They're gonna be fat, so their parents are so happy. I thought you said 579, might not be fat. Okay. Yeah. Because it must be weird coming from Look, you're in the United States. You look around. You're in the Midwest. You're in Chicago. There's a lot of fat people around. And they're, I can't lose weight. I can't stop eating. I mean, that's gotta be kind of that must have been jarring to see when you arrived here. I did have some, like, sympathetic issue in the beginning. Coming to America where, like, I just never knew having too much could be problem. Mhmm. Right? Like, I was never even the world is, like, diet. In North Korea, the most desired man is Kim Jong un, like, big belly and body hair. That means 579 we are bored, you're you're eating fat food or something. Okay. And you're a big belly. You have a status. Yeah. Very powerful because most of people are all starving. And in America now, they're talking about buying sunscreen to obsessed with diet. Yeah. And what the highest diet? Right? And here also people say, like, food is a problem. There's too much, though obesity is killing us. I'm like, just don't eat. Nobody forcing me to eat. Yes. I know. It it's interesting. It's a lot of perspective. So this squad of girls they're young and then they end up doing this for, until their marriage age or this squad of girls, they're young, and then they end up doing this for until they're of marriage, age, or something? Yes. And then they just go back home? No. Because they have seen too much. So the regime's, are, like, when they take your daughters like you gave it to your nation. So don't ever look them back. So these girls don't ever reach out to their parents ever again in their lifetime. So when you take his curves and then when they like, what we say, Guaje, then they match them with the cards, who card Kim Jong Un card trouble leads, colored people. Those guy doesn't see a lot. So they are forever sealed from the public. And then they married the regime's make the marriage together. What a miserable existence? Yeah. You don't even choose your partner. Just give you the it's, you know, just being chosen and then you get grouped in Mary and then forever you cannot talk about what you have seen and did. Yeah. So you never see your family again. Never. You don't even hear back from them ever again. I've heard that when people escape -- Mhmm. -- their extended family, I mean, we talked about the three generations, eight generations. So if someone escapes or is it factor? What happens to their family in North 579 What happens to their family in North Korea? Depending on the status of your family. Okay. So, also, the punishments are a lot lower during the Kim Jong il time, the second Kim. Told us teams aren't even really care in the beginning that people escape in the nineties. They're like, oh, if they don't like it, just call let them go. Mhmm. Why do we bother? Right? And then so back then, like, my family was also lower class. And nobody, I mean, they got, like, interrogated and tortured a little bit in the beginning. But they all got 579 Mhmm. lot of North Korean 579, like, now in America, very low number. Over only two hundred North Koreans made it to America. In the last almost, like, eighty years. Really? Yeah. Two hundred. Two hundred o seven or something like that. And so my America doesn't want a lot of noise prints to come either. So Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yep. They don't like no long term references that much. I had to come here as a South Korean. Oh, I There's a lot of working music. Like, exactly what's asking about Com America 579 a South Korean. So those countries usually go to South Korea. So now there are thirty three thousand Americans mainly to South Korea. During the last, like, eighty years. And so most of them are not high class, but the top class when they do the family, like, three day gym or something does get, like, punished. So Is this a complex issue for this a complex issue for you? Like, do you know what happened to your family back in North Korea? Yeah. So when I spoke out against the regime in two thousand fourteen, That's when they use all my families, including my neighbors -- Mhmm. -- to pronounce me and his videos on the YouTube. And then they got all disappeared. I took advice to have those people in the network that I used to get information now. Mhmm. They all got vanished. So those people are probably dead then. Most likely. Yeah. That has to be a complex issue for you. That was the thing I when I was thinking I knew I was risking my life. But I really didn't think that the vision was going to be threatened by thirteen years old, who escaped North Korea, who does not even have military like secret, Mhmm. All I was saying is what you see on the Google satellite 579 of this concentration camps and star vision that were documented -- Right. -- by the UN. So I thought, like, what am I revealing that is new? I did not know. But because you do not obey, that's the reason right? You you escaped. This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest, Park. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Cut clothing. Every single day, you make thousands of Every single day, you make thousands of decisions. 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Well, yeah, one thing was true was when I was in San Francisco, they said, like, the Americans 579 really homeless. Mhmm. Back then. I mean, in North Korea, you don't even have the freedom to be homeless. You go to prison if you want to be homeless, but you have to work for the party. But it was true when I came to America, there's so much 579. Because everybody can decide to be homeless and nobody arrested you for that. Yeah. So I was like, wow, I guess was true. But then I did the volunteering work at the homeless like a shelter. I mean, they had a refrigerator. Yeah. They had a sodas in there. Sure. Yeah. They had a mattress in their bunker beds. Right? And they had electricity. So I was thinking why when homeless lives much better than North Korea lives 579. Yeah. That's true. Internet on your phone. And they have my computers in the shower. They're like, what? They have Internet. So that was the only thing. And The other thing was they said, like, oh, Americans don't even have water, so they eat snow. Because that's I've seen this same propaganda 579 Jose. You're limited to one cup of snow per day. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that in North Korea and just watched that as stupid. Yeah. There are no birds in America because people eat the birds. They say that about the United States. Yeah. I know that's totally It's North Korea, but now I comment there's so many pageants 579 you see one page in North Korea. Everybody go out to the vision. Right? You never see that ever again. Yeah. So there's really no birds in us. Could we all catch them eat? You know, there's so many birds. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot people complain about the birds. Yeah. New York. Oh, there's stupid pigeons everywhere. In some ways, nobody eats them. Wow. Is it? So you thought white people were cold-blooded as well, it so you thought white people were cold blooded as well. Right? Like, literally. Yeah. I mean, they said when they're Americans, we don't think Americans are, like, American Mexicans or Hispanic like, 579 American. If you don't know -- Mhmm. -- like, you just there's a American, which is a one time because they don't teach us about race. Right. So I didn't even know that I was anxious. So how do I know there are different race in America? Right. So they draw the pinking for you. Yeah. The Americans have these giant A. J. And they rose with the green eyes. Yeah. And it goes to USA, and they look like months and they say they're, like, snakes called the bloodied. They don't even have a heart. They are, like, monsters, pure monsters. So when I came to America, I was, like, really shocked. Yeah. I mean, at that point, you realize they lied to you about everything else so that. Right? Yeah. I mean, by then. But until though, until it's anymore found by George Olam, it was really hard, like, how do I trust a game? Mhmm. Because I mean, they told me everything that I believe was a lie. Right. down. Like, so how do I like, so how do I know what your telling me is not lying? That's the the valid point. Yeah. But I get the numerics Right? Like, you just don't know. Right. The matrix. Yeah. It's it's like, you just don't know. Am I in the thing or not? Right? Right. Right. So it was I had that few years of that time where I couldn't trust. Yeah. That would be really difficult to come here and make friends while trying to also reconcile that maybe these are reptile people with gold blood or that you're not sure if they're lying to you now and you're just caught in another version -- Yeah. -- matrix like you said. And -- Yeah. -- do you miss anything about North Korea? Like, some of your friends and family sure, but is there anything, any element of the lifestyle or the country that you miss? Other than the people, I don't miss how close I was to other people. In the community. Like, we say, oh, it's not a good thing. It's very creepy that I even know how many chopsticks since one's my neighbor's hand. Like, that's how close a viewer. Really? Even though there was no trust. Yeah. But, like, we go over and hang out. But, you don't talk about politics You don't talk about those things, but like talking about, you know, crops or your kids, like, those things. Yeah. That's a a very North Korean topic. Right? How are crops looking? Jeez. That's what we talk about. Yeah. And nobody has device. So everybody is looking at each other's signs. Yeah. But here, like, I have no clues my neighbor is. No. When you love your Instagram, though, now I see Oh, exactly, guys. This Well, I do try to, like, control that though. I know what the social media is, like, does. It's really horrible. Yeah. So I use to try to raise awareness. Yeah. But I Yeah. Of course, I'll follow you on there. No. No. Right. Do a good job of balancing it. Oh, thank you. Yeah. It's very tempting and it's so hard. I feel like, I didn't understand that even I was living in New York, I was going to university there. A lot of my friends are like working in 579. It's like Manhattan, my in the consortium. Investment bankers all very 579, like biggest law firms in the world, and like at least sixty to eighty percent of them go to therapy. And then they were like, you need to go to therapy because you're traumatized. Mhmm. It's like what do you mean trauma? Alright? And then it was really weird in the beginning. Why does these people are not happy? They're living on the top of the world, having everything they need, why you're not happy, and eventually I do understand some parts, But I think the isolation is quite something I didn't expect it to be this much you are lonely and alone here. It's true. I mean, we are, like, the loneliness generation or something like that. A lot of it does probably have to do with social media. Yeah. That's a whole different show, I think, right there. Exactly. Yeah. Do you ever have dreams or I should say, do you ever have nightmares of like like you wake up and you're in North Korea? Yeah. I mean, I said, I get up and I get beaten and I try to escape. And the only very unique game in North Korea and whenever you ask them, in their dream is always North Korea. And that's the thing. You never escape. And you're subconscious. You're there forever. Like my mom, every night, she's there. Every now and there like nobody escapes in your dream. Wow. Well, I've heard you say that you can tell a North Korean by their voice on the phone. Yeah. What is it that you hear? Oppression. Yeah. I can tell So I work with a lot of Chinese brokers. I direct people, I send money. I get 579. I'll make some products out too. And there are some sketchy Korean admin Chinese. Right? Like, there are different admins in China. There are some Koreans who can't do some North Korean accent. Did try to lie to you. Say, oh, I'm a nurse. I'm a help you. Let's work together. Send me cash or something. Then when I hear them, like, oh, no. You're another nurse Korean. Interesting. Because the exact CEMEX sent. With North Korean broker, even their broker, they are pressed. You hear it right away. Before my family got punished, I was sending them money, a lot of money, and then talking to a lot of my 579 mothers too. Mhmm. And you just hear the oppression right there. How are you talking to them? On, like, a smuggled phone? Yeah. It's a whole oppression. So we smell the 579. The polar area to North Korea, and to North Korea jams the form. Oh. So they have to be in the bicycle, 579 a hood, hiding it. And then moving around thirty seconds. Ten thirty seconds later, they have to go all over the other time and then call me 579, like, thirty seconds. And then we have to use a lot of word like sugar and candy. All call it the words. Could they hear you? Oh, because they're using technology to listen to the Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so sugar and candy is like people or Or Whatever you are trying to get are trying to get out or, like, information. It's all about, like, a lot of grocery store. Cabbage has a rise, had the corn. I was like, you know, like, what am I? So that's all called the worst. Is it a smartphone? Because I feel like encrypted chat is so much easier. They don't have usually the Internet in our screen. So we get this all day. It's those sliding 579, the Chinese phone that we have. Some of them do have smartphones, but the Internet is not connected. Right. So we we call the Chinese phone in America, but the Chinese phone that we're smoking, can I answer it? So So it only works when you're like right on the only works when you're, like, right on the border. And 579 if I wanna talk to somebody inside, indoor the inner corner of Korea, then we turn the corner of Korean 579 and Chinese phone and then turn the speaker phone. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's what an operation is quite complicated. But then it's North Korea is even more dangerous, so you gotta be, like, sound like North Korean. You gotta completely talk in a way. But, usually, you just wanna 579, like, if somebody is there, are they still alive? Because a lot of people that I love the family, then they know. So they try to get money from me. Mhmm. But they're like, oh, you aren't. Is there I mean, aunt. Can I get can I get money? And the brokers wanna get money? Make money from me. So oh, you aren't asking for money. So I wanna just 579 this is my aunt or not. So I said, like, oh, how's the maybe your child has what grade is in the school. Mhmm. Or, like, it was a name, then they tell me, like, if they don't know, of course, they have no clue. Yeah. Or, like, do you remember the, like, the birthday when we went to this river I mean, you saw this. What do you remember? We saw it together. Yeah. If they don't remember, like, they are not. Man. So guys There's no banks. People don't know. Like, you can't ZenBose someone in North Korea. No banks. There's nothing. So how do you even get money to them? You just have to have somebody carry it there. Right? No. We have to send the money to Chinese brokers bank in China. They get the money out. The commissions are sometimes fifty percent -- Yeah. -- sixty, seventy percent. You don't have a choice. Yeah. It's the biggest banking business you can get in is so high buy, then they get the money out and then they roll it. And then, like, we don't hide you with the plastic bag. And then you press on and the one like string. And then you throw as a hat as you can to the North Korean side. You're kidding. Or print out tube. And then let the tube to go and let the -- Yeah. -- with the wok. You have to really gradual draw in the wok. And then with the thing that you can, like, do this or somebody's going person and going out in. Alright then. Just that way, you do that. So the Tsumeb river is just full of, like, rocks with money wrapped around it. No. It's very impassable now. The security is so hot. Yeah. So you have to buy the cars. So these cars take the money out of it. The North Korean broker gets the money out of it. Chinese broker gets money out of it. And then when you end up in your 579, it's like very little amount. What a crazy operation that is? You've been through so many different circumstances in your life. You must feel like must feel like you've lived hundred lifetimes. Yeah. I feel like at least lived two thousand years and sport. Yeah. I have a seat off. So how does helping people escape North Korea work? Like, what does it cost to get someone out? Yeah. I mean, I cannot say exact route they take. No. No. I Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly we take them through Thailand. No. I mean, no provision knows it too. Now everybody knows. It's like -- Yeah. -- it's the government. Yeah. But you know the location, but what we do is that it costs around less than two thousand dollars, like eighteen hundred to get a person out. Yeah. From China to but from North Korea, they're impassible. No. Oh, so you can't get people out of North America? No. They get them out of China. You want you fifty thousand k or a hundred thousand k you cannot get out. Oh, right. Because of the border security So is it secure? How many North Koreans are in China waiting to escape now? In your estimation? Approximately, they say around three hundred thousand people. Three hundred thousand. Yeah. Mostly, we may not being trafficked and being sold and raped. We met a lot of met a lot of Korean they said Korean Chinese, but it's I what do I know when I was in dandong on the border? And I to this day, wonder how many of them are actually just North Korean, and they were and they're always with old guys, which I thought was really unusual and creepy. Yeah. All of them are as they say they are ethnic because they cannot speak perfect Chinese. Right. So, like, why do you have accent? like, oh, because I'm ethnic Chinese. The ones that is kept very early in the nineties, they were able to buy the ID. So in China called the Hukar -- Mhmm. -- somebody's Hukar. Right? So if somebody dies, the family do not report on the police and then share that ID because a lot of children left the city work. Right. But in China, rural areas, a lot of young people call work in the city. So their HUKOIL, their 579, from their village, or whatever, is just sitting in the drawers. Yeah. And then you buy it. But then, like, nowadays, it's a social criticism and everything's on digital. It's a really hard to fake it. But back in nineties, even the Internet wasn't that widely used. So unless the police really go that town asking the town around around, do you think that child is alive or dies? Can't even know. But then Poland is not gonna go travel all the way to the countryside -- Yeah. -- and then check it. So it was those people actually hiding in China and then do those things. Is the bottleneck then just funds to get these people out? If you can get them out, it's the best thing. Right? Imagine, like, if there's at least a hundred thousand merchants gaped. That power is gonna be unbelievable. And that many people wanna speak out and have 579 when North Koreans come out. As I said, It's not like they are only escaping themselves. Most of the North Koreans, which are back to their family and send money information. So imagine how many people getting 579 from the free word -- Yeah. -- and hearing about the word. Yeah. This is useful. Look, we speaking of ads and apicalism, what if we use the ad profits from this episode to get North Koreans out of China? Can we do that? Not from North Korea, but China from North Korea. Yeah. That is absolutely Let's do that. Can we, can I text you after that. Yeah. Like, can we can I text you after this we'll figure out how to I have no idea how to do that? I have. Okay. Yes. Let's do that. Okay. Let's end right there because that's a happy note on the end of this crazy crazy saga. Thank you so much for your time. And for coming in, this has really been, I don't even know if there's not one word I can describe for coming in. This has really been -- Oh. -- I don't even know 579 there's not one word I can describe it. So Thank you so much for sharing. This is just This has just absolutely been incredible. Oh, thank you for having me as a mom there. Here's a trailer for another episode of the Jordan harbinger show with Charles Roo here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. When I was fourteen, I get my first opportunity to escape North Korea and go to China. Police came to her house. We're getting deported, not Korea. I got transported to detention center. They are brainwashing us for nine months. I started working on a coal mine while was paid only in rice. So one morning, instead of entering the mine, I walked up the path and began running. And in the disc, things. I saw train come stop. This is my chance I need to get on that train. I finally made it to border town. I'm already determined. The next stay. Right? I walked into the reverted device, North Korea and China, which is yellow river, and then I slowly walked into the water. I slipped in a rock and I lit out of screen. A 579 light was on my back, and I heard a soldier screaming at oh, man. Stop. Stop. Stop. For I was shoot. The Gauros kept screaming in me, but he never put the trigger. And then I went into 579. I'm in China now. So I embarked on a long journey to Southeast Asia. I got to Thailand. That was the best day of my life. Going to Thai prison. And then I was trying to apply for South Korea, but they didn't recognize me as refugee. And they're like, we would have to send you back to China. Chinese government sent me back to North Korea, but you guys don't want to help me? And And that's just the tip of the just the tip of the iceberg. He escaped the police. He had a room with secret police in China. I mean, this guy just has an absolutely amazing sense of survival and story. And that's episode eighty four with Charles Rhyu Concessions of a North Korean escape artist, part one and part two episode eighty four of the Jordan harbinger show. Make sure you check it out. So I spoke the truth did a different type of episode with It's interesting about her being on a kill list from Kim Jong Un from the regime's. finding that liberating. I don't know if I would find it liberating, but then again, I've never been on a kill list, at least not as far as I know. Bill Brower episode number three of this show is also on Putin's kill list. Other investigative journalists I've spoken with have similar feelings about being hunted. Maybe it's liberating, but Yeah. They don't fly Russian airlines, for example. Her book which is linked to the show notes goes into detail on the situation in North Korea, her human trafficking story, It discusses the negotiations on the price it was sold for, etcetera. It's really just surreal. And again, a harrowing tale I think you'll really enjoy. I enjoyed reading those counts. I've read pretty much everything on North Korea. And the place, if you haven't been, which most of you have not, is really surreal. I talk about my trips there quite often episode four thirty five in four thirty nine. British stories from me and Gabriel Mizrahi who you know from feedback Friday on our trips to North Korea because both of us have been four or five times each. Sometime separately. Big thank you to Yeonmi Park. Her book will be linked in the show notes. Always use our links 579 you don't mind to buy books from the guests. It does help support the show audiobooks included. Worksheets for episodes are in the show notes. Transcripts for episodes are in the show notes. There's video of this interview and many others that always go up on YouTube channel at jordan harbinger dot com slash youtube. In our clips channel with cuts that don't make it to the show or highlights from the interviews that you can't see anywhere else. Jordan harbinger dot com slash clips is where you can find that. I'm at jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me on LinkedIn. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems in tiny habits. The same ones that I use every day, including the software that we made to keep in touch with folks. That's our six minute networking course. The course is free. I don't need your credit card info. There's no sneaky stuff going on. It's just for you at jordan harbinger dot com slash course, I wanna teach you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. And most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course and contribute to the course. Come join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jay's Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Emilio Campo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Misrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's into North Korea, harrowing stories, or just a fan of You and Me Park, please share this episode with him. 579, you find something great in every episode of this show, so please share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. 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