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2:39

It is so important in life

2:41

to learn how to be a

2:43

good interviewer. Not because you're

2:45

a reporter, not because you're a podcaster, but

2:48

so many situations in life are

2:50

quasi-interviews, like when you're applying for

2:53

a job, or when you are

2:56

hiring somebody, or when you meet

2:58

a girl or a guy at a party,

3:01

you want to find out as much

3:03

about them as quickly as possible. And

3:05

you also want to make sure they

3:07

have a good opinion of you, if

3:09

that's your goal. So being a good

3:11

interviewer and having those skills is

3:13

critical. And I'm so grateful that I've had

3:16

this podcast and I've had to study the

3:19

styles of some of the best interviewers out

3:21

there. But one of the best interviewers out

3:23

there has recently written an article on how

3:26

to be a great interviewer.

3:28

And I'm talking about Polina

3:30

Pompliano, who writes the newsletter,

3:32

the profile. She does profiles

3:34

of so many amazing people.

3:36

I highly recommend Google Polina

3:38

Pompliano. She's written a book,

3:40

Hidden Genius, but subscribe

3:42

to her newsletter, The Profile. And she

3:44

just had an edition where

3:46

she didn't profile someone, but she

3:49

wrote about the 10 best techniques

3:51

for being a great interviewer. And

3:53

she studies the greats, distills what

3:55

their top 10 techniques are. I

3:57

really got a lot of value out of this. to

4:00

come on the podcast and we just shared

4:02

stories about how to be a good

4:04

interviewer. So let me know if

4:06

this was valuable to you, but I'm sure it will

4:08

be. Here's Polina and we talk about

4:11

how to be a great interviewer. This

4:18

isn't your average business podcast and

4:20

he's not your average host. This

4:22

is the James Officer Show. What

4:30

is your profile? You've

4:35

done so many interviews through

4:38

your newsletter. Is it

4:41

actually called the profile? It

4:43

is called the profile, yes. I

4:47

always forget the title, but it

4:49

is the one newsletter. When I

4:51

get it, that's the first newsletter

4:53

I open. I just love your

4:55

profiles. You're profiling everybody from billionaires

4:57

to artists. It's great

4:59

because unlike a podcast, you don't

5:01

feel obligated to bring the person

5:04

in to your house and interview them.

5:06

You just profile anybody you're interested in.

5:08

It allows you to

5:10

do extra research and so on. Exactly.

5:12

A lot of times I

5:14

back my way into interviewing them. If I

5:16

really want to interview someone and

5:19

I don't think I can yet, I

5:21

put together a deep dive on them and then I

5:24

send it to them or their people. I'm like,

5:26

hey, look, this is my style. This is what I

5:28

do. I'd love to interview

5:30

you and I've gotten a few interviews that way. You've

5:34

now built up such a following

5:37

that I imagine book

5:40

publishers or movie studios should be pitching

5:42

you, hey, can you profile our author

5:44

or actor or whatever? Yeah,

5:46

no, I get quite

5:49

a few. Only

5:52

a few of them are actually really, really

5:54

interesting, but I read every email. Believe

5:56

me, we get 100. I

6:00

would say realistically we get about between

6:02

10 and 20 a day. I

6:04

believe it. And sometimes I get angry actually, not really

6:06

like angry, angry, but I want to write back and

6:09

said, why do you think this

6:11

person, you know, I would want to,

6:13

not that like everybody is valuable and

6:15

everybody has an interesting story, but like

6:18

given, you know, for, for

6:20

a podcast, you have a certain brand or,

6:22

or you have certain type of person. You

6:25

could tell the person did no research. Like

6:27

why would I want to interview somebody who,

6:29

I don't know, I don't want to put anybody down, but, uh,

6:32

and it's, again, it's not like I think I'm

6:34

so elite, but it's the point of view

6:36

of the podcast. It's like, they know

6:39

who they're pitching. I completely agree. And,

6:42

and, but you do a lot of interviews

6:44

though, like for your, for your newsletter. And

6:47

like me, you study

6:49

the art of the interview, which is why

6:51

I love that article you wrote where you

6:53

took a break from profiling and you did

6:55

10 interview techniques from the world's

6:58

best interviewers. And it's really like

7:00

something that I am fat, obsessed

7:02

by. Like you, uh, you've

7:05

taken a slightly different angle in your research and

7:07

I, I, you know, everybody has their own style.

7:09

And, and like, I've looked at everybody

7:12

from like Larry King to Oprah, to Howard

7:14

Stern, to Joe Rogan, like everybody's got their

7:16

own style. And, and it's very

7:19

interesting to, to study

7:21

people's interviewing styles, because an

7:24

interviewer has to, you know, unwrap

7:27

this gift. And there's a lot of

7:30

wrapping around the gift, but if you get to the

7:32

gift itself, you get a beautiful interview. It's

7:35

so true. And the reason, I mean,

7:37

I think all the, everyone who

7:39

interviews people for a living, as you do,

7:41

I'm sure has done this research for themselves,

7:43

which is what I was doing, I was

7:46

just compiling thoughts for myself to get better.

7:48

And then I was like, maybe I should

7:50

just like publish this because everybody's always trying

7:52

to be a better conversationalist interviewer. You know,

7:55

even if you have nothing, if you don't

7:57

have a podcast or an interview show, you're

7:59

probably. interviewing candidates for a job

8:01

at your business. So it's like something

8:03

everybody can benefit from. It's

8:06

so true. Like I have

8:08

found that getting good at

8:10

interviewing, and I'm not saying I'm great,

8:12

it's like a non-stop, it's like a

8:15

lifelong study. You have to master it,

8:17

like mastering a sport or mastering music.

8:19

Interviewing is, you're playing

8:21

an instrument, which is the person you're interviewing

8:23

and that's a little maybe

8:26

not quite good, but you

8:29

have to kind of, it's a path to

8:31

mastery and it's difficult, but it does improve

8:33

other areas of my life. Like it helps

8:36

me relate to people in general and understand

8:38

people and so on. Like

8:40

when you're interviewing, what's your, what

8:42

is your goal feeling

8:45

that you want the interviewee, the person

8:47

you're interviewing, to have by the end

8:49

of the interview? My

8:52

goal going into any interview is to

8:54

make them think. I think so, especially

8:56

you know when you interview a lot

8:58

of CEOs and founders and people like

9:01

that, oftentimes they're very media trained and

9:03

it's really hard to break that veil

9:05

or that like pierce that smokescreen. And

9:09

my goal is like I want to have

9:11

them pause after a question, be like hold

9:13

on, I've never actually thought of that or

9:15

thought about it that way. And when

9:18

you make them think, it's like it

9:20

humanizes them just a little bit. The

9:22

problem is that it takes a while to get

9:24

through that. And when

9:27

I was writing this you know

9:29

article about the interviewing techniques, I was like

9:31

how can you do that more quickly? Like

9:34

how can you build intimacy quicker so that

9:36

you get there faster? Right

9:38

because let's say you only have a half

9:40

hour to an hour to interview them, which

9:42

really means you only have about five minutes,

9:45

maybe even less, to make them feel comfortable

9:47

with who you are as an interviewer. Because

9:49

a lot of people might be on guard

9:51

and like you said a lot of people,

9:54

particularly like CEOs or other

9:56

high-profile people, they have their

9:58

media message. that they

10:01

said like one time i'll give you an example

10:03

of one time i was interviewing tony robbins after

10:05

one of his books came out and he had

10:07

such a message and he's such a like a

10:10

big. Mom yeah

10:12

and i say

10:14

this in the best possibly that he

10:17

just gets on his spiel and i had

10:19

to practically yell at him to interrupt and

10:21

you discuss the art of interruption in your

10:23

article will get to the specific techniques. And

10:26

other times people don't know that when they're saying

10:28

something that might be interesting. It's just

10:30

kind of listing some things that have happened in their life and

10:32

they're you know oh i got over

10:34

a cocaine addiction and then i did it yeah

10:36

wait wait a second how did you get how

10:38

did you get the. You know you

10:40

never going to and people are afraid

10:42

to interrupt you never get this chance again to talk

10:45

to them. A hundred percent and it's

10:47

yeah it's so good especially like you

10:50

said tony robbins probably doing like a

10:52

hundred interviews for his book he's on

10:54

message even if you ask him a

10:57

question probably just answer something kind of

10:59

related but not really to get his

11:01

message across and it's like the interviewers

11:04

you're definitely one of them who are

11:06

actually listening. They are the

11:08

ones who like real wind the tape like wait

11:11

let's focus on that a little bit more and

11:13

i think for me. It

11:15

to go back to like if you have thirty minutes

11:17

how do you get to that intimacy quicker what

11:20

i do is often. If

11:23

i'm asking them to share something a

11:25

little more vulnerable i'll start first how

11:27

it's done does this a lot it's

11:29

like you share something about your own

11:31

life for your own struggle or whatever.

11:34

And that allows them to be like okay

11:36

okay like let me tell you my experience

11:38

it's a little like i'll give a little

11:40

you give a little and it i think

11:42

that helps. That is

11:44

so interesting because that's where your

11:47

interviews are different from a podcast

11:49

because i can't do

11:52

that so much you know i've done fifteen

11:54

hundred episodes and i

11:57

can't do that so much in the podcast

11:59

because my listeners. They know my

12:01

story. It's very hard to

12:03

reveal something new to my,

12:06

you know, regular listeners. So

12:09

I see where you're saying with the vulnerability

12:11

and sometimes I try to do that because

12:14

that's a really important thing to get out of them. But

12:16

I have to kind of work around that a

12:18

little bit sometimes maybe before the interview or or

12:22

maybe I asked what I have to do is really show

12:24

them how much I appreciate

12:26

what they've been through. Yes,

12:29

exactly. In the pre-interview, like

12:31

the time before the interview actually starts is also

12:33

very important because yeah, you can you can build

12:36

that rapport before you even start. Yeah.

12:38

And so so you want them to think, you

12:41

know, it's interesting. I haven't thought of it that

12:43

way. What I want them to say to me

12:45

afterwards is, man, that felt like

12:48

a therapy session. Yeah. So

12:51

and then what do you want your reader or listener

12:53

to think after you've done an interview? I

12:58

want them to I want them

13:00

to be like, wow, I actually really

13:02

learn something from this person or there's

13:04

one piece of practical something

13:06

that I can take away and implement in

13:09

my life. I always try to try

13:11

to like extract something practical from the

13:13

person because ultimately if you're a listener

13:15

of a podcast, you probably want to

13:17

get better. You probably want to grow.

13:20

So it's like, what is one technique

13:22

that like maybe I haven't considered or

13:24

maybe I haven't thought

13:26

about in that way that I can implement in my day.

13:29

And do you ever

13:31

get nervous or intimidated before you interview

13:34

someone all the time? Every

13:36

time I still do. Really?

13:39

Yeah. After 1500. I

13:41

mean, I'll tell you, I first

13:44

professionally was interviewing people. And

13:46

my listeners know this story. But I worked

13:48

for HBO in the 90s. And I did

13:50

this project where I was interviewing people at

13:52

three in the morning in New York City. Prostitutes

13:56

pimps, drug dealers. Yeah.

13:59

Other. Homeless whatever and

14:01

I would just walk up to people three in the morning So you

14:03

have to there's a degree of

14:05

comfort you have to make them feel very

14:08

quickly and they might have weapons so

14:12

so I've done a lot of intergrated thousands of those

14:14

and I still and I

14:16

was always nervous walking out to somebody but I'm

14:18

still if someone's coming on I'm like Almost

14:22

always the 30 seconds

14:24

before the interview starts. I hope they

14:26

cancel a

14:31

lot too, it's so interesting right like I

14:33

don't I mean I I think

14:36

that being nervous is actually a

14:38

good sign because you Prepare the people who

14:40

are like, ah whatever and they don't end

14:42

up preparing and it's not as good of

14:44

an interview I think like that nervousness is

14:46

what keeps you really good. I Think

14:50

so. I think you ever could do an

14:52

interview though, and you feel like man. I could

14:54

have done better. Oh that Totally

14:56

like that feels really bad and then

14:59

somehow that happened to me recently I was

15:01

like, oh no that that fell short and

15:04

then it ended up like the

15:07

listeners really liked it She's like, how

15:09

does this happen? You know, sometimes your

15:11

bar of quality is different That's

15:13

true. But like okay a couple years ago.

15:15

I interviewed before he was running for president

15:17

interviewed RFK jr Okay, and I

15:20

read his book I read other but you know that was

15:22

a mistake because when you read his I mean, I'm glad

15:24

I read his book And I did other

15:26

research But I didn't really of

15:28

course you only get his side of the story on

15:31

that stuff I should I didn't

15:33

really realize the depth to which you

15:35

know drug problems and and other

15:37

factors were you know formed his

15:39

his his view of life and

15:41

I Feel like I should have

15:43

asked more about that, but I just wasn't as aware that I

15:46

should have been it's hard It's

15:48

also hard one-on-one interviews. I find really

15:50

difficult Because you don't

15:52

have the benefit of like going I mean,

15:55

I guess you could do that But it

15:57

just takes a lot of work you could

16:00

So for example, if you're writing

16:02

a profile in a magazine, you would

16:04

go interview his associates, people he's worked

16:07

with, family members, friends, whatever. But like

16:09

this, you truly are only getting this

16:11

one person's side of the story. You

16:13

can't bring in different voices. Right.

16:16

And you're, I don't, like

16:18

a podcaster is not a journalist. I don't

16:20

consider you a journalist. You're writing something not

16:23

to say, oh, I got the dirt on

16:25

this person, or I found

16:27

out, you know, this thing they did,

16:29

you know, it's a story, but you're

16:32

trying to help your readers and

16:36

give, find lessons and benefits. And

16:39

okay, journalism has its role, but I

16:41

think for me, it's more interesting, like

16:43

your style of profile than reading and

16:45

I got you kind of story. So

16:48

cause then you don't, like I find when

16:50

everybody, you know, with a

16:52

lot of journalism, the journalist has an

16:54

agenda that might maybe is not

16:57

a friendly agenda and they're trying to get,

16:59

you know, they're trying to get

17:01

some achievement in their career, which might go

17:03

against the goals of the readers and the

17:05

goal of the person they're interviewing. I

17:08

really, I really truly get upset

17:10

when I see something like that. It,

17:12

there is a place for

17:14

hard hitting, you know, investigative journalism

17:16

and I will defend that to

17:19

the desk. What I don't like

17:21

is somebody coming in and being like, Oh, this

17:23

is a cheap shot. I'm just going to get

17:25

my, you know, sound bite and

17:27

move on. And in the, I mean, I

17:29

don't want to like harp

17:31

on it, but in the article that

17:33

I wrote in parentheses, so it's not

17:36

like that obvious, but

17:38

I included a link

17:41

to what happens when a reporter

17:43

has an agenda. He's not well

17:45

prepared and he's trying to take

17:47

somebody down with Elon Musk.

17:51

This reporter came in and he was just like, well, what do

17:53

you think about this? And he was like, well,

17:55

he was talking about Twitter and after Elon

17:57

acquired it and all this stuff. And

18:00

Elon was like, well, give me an example of what

18:02

you're talking about. And he was like, uh, uh,

18:04

well, I don't really use Twitter. And it's just

18:06

like, Oh my gosh, it's so bad, but it

18:08

just shows the lack of preparation and then Elon's

18:11

able to turn it around on him and just

18:13

super embarrassing. Yeah.

18:15

I think that's, that's an interesting point

18:17

too, by the way, is that when

18:19

you're being interviewed by someone who's doing

18:21

that, I got you style and, and

18:23

they're never going to really be fully

18:25

prepared because they have an agenda. So

18:27

you have to fit in their agenda.

18:29

And there are a lot of great

18:31

techniques for dealing with that

18:33

also. And this works like it just in general in

18:35

any kind of argument, like, like,

18:38

you know, often

18:40

they slightly change the subject. So instead of

18:42

saying like, Hey, this is how you bought

18:44

Twitter. They might make it kind of their

18:46

own opinion about freedom of speech. And then

18:48

I don't know that particular interview you're referring

18:50

to, but Elon must might, might be able

18:52

to say, Hey, did you just change the

18:54

subject? I'm happy to talk about that. But

18:56

let me know. Is that, is that what

18:58

we're talking about now? Are we still talking

19:00

about Twitter? And so there's ways

19:03

to kind of like, you could label

19:05

what they're doing and then that sort of throws them

19:07

off a little bit. Yes. Yeah.

19:10

And it just, I, yeah,

19:12

I think that some people, um, get

19:16

power drunk and they don't think

19:18

that the subject will push back

19:20

and when they do, they kind

19:22

of lose their footing and just

19:25

chaos ensues. Yeah. And,

19:27

and look, the great thing

19:29

about newsletters and podcasts is these are

19:32

the sorts of things that did not

19:34

exist 20 years ago. You

19:36

know, the technology wasn't there. The audio wasn't there.

19:38

So you had to be chosen by like

19:41

the New York times or a radio,

19:43

a powerful radio station or the Washington

19:45

post. And so you felt like

19:47

you had status. So it was

19:49

a different type of feeling that reporters and

19:51

journalists had then. Whereas we sort of have

19:53

created our media and it's like, it's

19:55

like you have your own magazine. I have my own

19:58

radio show, but we, we chose. ourselves

20:00

to do that so we could we don't

20:02

have to do the I got you kind

20:04

of journalism we could share we could be

20:06

the bridge between our audience and

20:10

really intelligent smart

20:13

Inspirational people and that's a that's a

20:15

value And I want to just

20:17

I just want to like add a little

20:20

nuance here It's not that we're saying

20:22

never challenge the person. That's not at

20:24

all what this is. It's like I

20:27

got you versus uh challenging

20:29

I think actually you do this really

20:31

well And I remember um when I

20:33

came on your show for my book

20:36

In the beginning you said something

20:38

like okay, but hold on I want to

20:41

challenge this point of view that you had

20:43

in the book because I think it's contradictory to

20:45

something else that you said That was so good

20:47

because it allowed me to explain it in more

20:49

detail And I knew that you

20:52

don't just like take people's crap like you're not like

20:54

Um, well, you said it so it must be

20:57

fact like no, let's explore that and i'm gonna

20:59

challenge you But in challenging you

21:01

i'm actually giving you an opportunity to explain

21:03

yourself better Yeah,

21:05

that's a good point because I think I

21:07

think a there's a couple things there one is it

21:09

shows And then I really do want to get to

21:12

your techniques But

21:14

um When when I do something

21:16

like that a is because i'm really curious why

21:18

or maybe there's something I didn't understand like i'm

21:21

I am trusting you so i'm trying to figure out

21:23

what didn't I understand and then b like

21:26

you said it allows to get More

21:28

information out and to dig a little further

21:30

but also see there's this a slight part

21:32

where I'm showing you how deeply

21:34

I read your book It's a way of showing

21:37

respect to you So then you're you become more

21:39

comfortable in the interview or that or whoever i'm

21:41

interviewing becomes more comfortable So many

21:43

interviewers don't read their latest books or the

21:45

things they're trying to promote So then what's

21:47

the point and I always want to make

21:49

sure Not only do I

21:52

prepare questions, but I prepare how am I

21:54

going to demonstrate that I have

21:56

studied them more than anyone else Exactly

22:00

And it reflects in your questions and

22:02

it shows that you're genuinely curious, which

22:05

is one of the

22:07

things, a cornerstone of an interviewing

22:09

technique. Take

22:16

a quick break. If you like this episode, I'd

22:18

really, really appreciate it. It means so much to

22:21

me. Please share it with your friends and subscribe

22:23

to the podcast. Email

22:25

me at altatra.com and tell me

22:28

why you subscribed. Thanks. Yes,

22:38

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22:41

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22:43

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22:45

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22:48

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22:50

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22:52

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22:54

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22:57

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22:59

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23:02

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23:04

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23:06

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23:09

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23:28

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23:30

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23:32

met so many just nice hosts. It's a great

23:34

community. And I love,

23:38

you know, turning my own home into

23:40

an Airbnb. Like I'm traveling to Austin

23:42

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23:44

an Airbnb while I'm away and

23:46

I'll stay in an Airbnb. I'd rather stay

23:48

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23:50

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23:52

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23:55

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23:57

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24:00

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24:02

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24:34

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24:36

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24:38

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24:40

by side with the Business Summit

24:42

was the Norway Chess Summit where

24:45

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24:47

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24:49

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24:51

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24:53

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24:55

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24:58

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25:00

they were willing to pay for everything for me.

25:02

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so I didn't want to fly for 14 hours

25:06

and not be first class. So

25:09

I had to hurry up and

25:11

get on the phone immediately to get

25:13

those first class tickets to a chess

25:16

tournament in Norway. And listen,

25:18

this is just like when

25:20

you have to know when you

25:23

want the best of anything, you have to

25:25

act quickly or someone else will get it

25:27

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25:31

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25:33

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25:38

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25:40

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25:43

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the smartest way to hire. Let's

27:35

see your your techniques because you've studied

27:37

so many of these great interviewers so

27:40

the first thing you say is they

27:43

know the first question this is so important a

27:46

great interviewer knows the first question sets

27:48

the tone for the entire interview and

27:50

you give the example you give two

27:53

examples of Zuckerberg Tim Ferriss who's a

27:55

great podcaster his

27:57

first question was about fencing and

27:59

Zuckerberg who's constantly being challenged in the

28:01

media. He just opened up and relaxed and

28:03

like they're friends which is what you

28:06

want as an interviewer, you know, as a

28:08

goal, like become instant friends. Whereas somebody else

28:10

interviewed Zuckerberg or Kara Swisher and was like,

28:12

tell me, you know, why are you anti-privacy

28:15

or whatever she said? Take off

28:17

your hoodie, you're sweating through it, like it's

28:19

just a dressing down of literally

28:22

and figuratively. So

28:24

like, I wonder if that was her

28:26

goal was just to kind of show her readers

28:28

that she could be tough or

28:30

if she really thought that would

28:33

be a good interviewing technique to kind of throw him off

28:35

real quickly. Well, I mean,

28:37

that's kind of her thing. But also,

28:39

I think it's two different

28:41

contexts. Tim Ferriss was interviewing him on

28:43

a podcast. So they had two hours.

28:45

She was interviewing Zuckerberg

28:48

on stage and maybe they had like,

28:50

I don't know, 30 minutes, 15 minutes.

28:52

So they have to get there faster.

28:55

She has to ask those questions faster.

28:57

The problem is that you risk burning

28:59

the subject that you're trying to interview.

29:02

Mark Zuckerberg, after that interview with Kara

29:04

Swisher, did not do an

29:06

interview with her for eight years. In that

29:09

period of time, Facebook became Facebook. So

29:12

I mean, you risk that.

29:14

But also, you know, when

29:16

you go straight into the

29:18

meet, the person's

29:21

on the defensive, like they're on guard. They're

29:23

just they're not going to

29:25

be as open. Whereas when Tim Ferriss

29:27

starts like that with fencing, it

29:29

opens up Zuckerberg. And naturally, as a

29:31

human being, if he brings up if

29:33

Tim Ferriss brings up a difficult subject

29:35

later in the interview, it's

29:38

just you've built that rapport. So

29:40

it's easier to ask and

29:42

respond to the hard questions. Yeah,

29:45

but I wonder, like, let's say you were

29:47

Kara Swisher in that case. Yeah. What

29:49

would you have? Let's say you only have 30 minutes. I don't

29:51

know how much time she had. Let's say you only have 30

29:53

minutes and you wanted to put you

29:55

put you being Paulina, you

29:57

wanted to start with an interview that that

30:00

is more warm and friendly the way Tim Ferriss said. What

30:02

would you have done? I

30:05

think just the first question wouldn't

30:07

have been a direct, what are

30:09

you doing about privacy? Maybe I

30:11

would have started with an anecdote

30:13

of someone using the platform and

30:16

something adjacent to the privacy question,

30:22

and then I would have gotten there. It's

30:24

just the first three questions of

30:27

her and her colleagues when they were interviewing Zuckerberg

30:30

were about privacy. Maybe let's just

30:32

open it up with something that

30:34

sets the

30:37

tone that this is what we're going to

30:39

talk about, but it's softer, and then go

30:41

into the more direct. Yeah,

30:44

I'm trying to think. I think what

30:46

I would have done, like you said, fencing

30:50

might be too long of a subject.

30:52

Yeah, yeah. But I might have

30:54

said something like, I just

30:56

want to mention, in 2006, the first time I

31:00

turned on Facebook, it was the most amazing

31:02

experience. I could finally see what

31:04

my friends from first grade are

31:06

doing now. I would never call them, but

31:08

I could see how their kid's soccer game

31:11

did last night. Here's how

31:13

I would do it. Sorry, sorry. I didn't know if

31:15

you. For example,

31:17

I would say, Mark, Facebook is

31:20

amazing for somebody like me because I get

31:22

to for the first time. Your

31:25

company gave me the opportunity to connect

31:27

with family in Bulgaria, where previously I

31:29

had no contact with. We couldn't share

31:32

photos like this as easily, whatever. And

31:35

then I would say, by the

31:37

way, I noticed that my grandmother in

31:40

Bulgaria is posting links to

31:42

things that's definitely misinformation, and

31:44

it's kind of propaganda. How

31:46

are you guys handling that with my grandmother

31:49

in Bulgaria? Something like that, where it's not

31:51

as abusive. That's

31:53

really good, because then you could say, she needs

31:56

to be worried because the government in Bulgaria. And

31:59

then you could always. that what about people here in

32:01

the US? Is it different? Is

32:03

it the same? Why are people worried about

32:05

privacy here? Exactly. Yeah,

32:08

that would have been good. And you know,

32:10

all this stuff is important too for a

32:12

job. Let's say you're just going for a

32:14

job at some random bank. So

32:16

it's like sort of generic. It's

32:19

very important to research and figure

32:21

out how to connect. Why

32:23

this bank? Why this person? Why are you

32:26

sitting there? What's happening that's

32:29

beyond just money and doing

32:32

work that connects you to this

32:34

experience. I think it's important to always

32:36

think of these interview questions. Exactly.

32:38

When I was interviewing at Fortune, you

32:41

know, I go into interview for a job,

32:43

but if I hadn't researched the person who

32:45

was interviewing me, I would have never known

32:48

that she got her PhD at the same

32:50

university where I graduated from. That's a huge

32:52

like connective thing that we could talk about.

32:54

But if I hadn't done my research on

32:57

her, I wouldn't have known that and it

32:59

would have just been like any generic interview

33:01

she'd done that day. I'll

33:04

tell you like that is incredibly

33:06

valuable. That's the

33:08

most valuable thing that's going to come out of this

33:10

particular podcast because tell me just just that type of

33:13

thing when you research the people in advance that you're

33:15

going to talk to in a

33:17

job situation or some professional business

33:19

situation. Of course, it's obvious

33:21

that we do this in interviews or we

33:23

should but not everybody does that for a

33:26

job interview or the first time you meet

33:28

somebody in a professional setting. Like

33:30

I've had companies actually acquired

33:33

from me because I've done that letter level of

33:35

research. Like one time I met the CFO

33:37

of a company that was acquiring my company

33:39

at the time and I

33:42

learned that he went to Grinnell

33:44

College and you

33:46

know, it was we were both were, you know,

33:48

I had a finance company that I was selling.

33:50

Yeah, you know, Grinnell College, of course, and I

33:53

then this there's the CFO and the CEO in

33:55

the room. I explained to the CEO, you got

33:57

to really know that Grinnell College is an important.

34:00

and case studies because they have the fastest

34:02

growing endowment because a young man by the

34:04

name of Warren Buffett is sitting on their

34:06

board of trustees. And

34:08

so that put, ingratiated the CFO to

34:11

me. You know, the CEO

34:13

learned something I had that was able to

34:15

like, you know, show everybody. I

34:17

knew what I was doing. So stuff

34:20

like that is really valuable. It's small,

34:22

but it's like, I mean, we're human beings.

34:25

It makes you more likable to me, you know?

34:28

Yeah. And, and again, like no

34:30

matter what an interview, the interviewee

34:33

is nervous. Also they

34:35

want to be at ease. You only have an hour

34:37

together. You want them, you want to

34:39

be able to maybe interview them later. Like you said, Mark

34:41

Zuckerberg didn't go back to Caris Fisher for eight years. I'm

34:43

surprised he went back at all. But

34:46

I guess that's his job too, to be the face of his

34:48

company. But it's, it's

34:50

important. So okay. No, okay. You

34:53

got to set the tone. Number two. By

34:56

the way, you mentioned, you start mentioning

34:58

Larry King. Yeah. And

35:00

Larry King is an excellent person to study because

35:03

he specifically, and you mentioned he does,

35:05

he's conducted 60,000 interviews. That's

35:07

crazy. Yeah. And

35:09

he, he did not research

35:12

on purpose, his, the people he would

35:14

interview because he wanted it to be

35:16

fresh. Like the listener might not know who.

35:19

But he really listened while the interview

35:21

was going on. Yes. And

35:23

what do you think of that approach of not doing any research at all?

35:26

I think it works for some people. It would not work

35:28

for me. I think I would be too nervous that

35:30

I didn't touch on something that I should have touched

35:32

on. And also I would

35:35

be nervous that I'm just asking the

35:37

same questions. They've already been asked 10

35:39

billion times, but like the experts, the

35:42

masters of their craft, you

35:44

know, they know what they're doing and it just, it

35:46

works for some people, but you just got to know.

35:49

Yeah. I, I

35:51

don't know. I don't think it would work for me

35:53

either, but sometimes when you do too much

35:55

research, I have to make sure the

35:58

listener knows what I'm talking about. about. The

36:01

context, yeah. So sometimes it's a fine

36:03

line to navigate, but I agree. I have

36:05

to do the research. I'm impressed with Larry

36:07

King, but there are some funny stories because

36:09

Larry King does it this way. Like

36:12

he famously asked Jerry Seinfeld in

36:14

an interview, you know, how did

36:16

you feel when your show was canceled? And

36:18

Jerry Seinfeld was like, Larry, do you know who

36:21

I am? Yeah, exactly.

36:23

But like that makes for

36:25

a great, great television. Yeah,

36:27

it's true. Your second

36:29

one's really interesting. Your second point is a good

36:32

interviewer explores the gap between

36:34

expectation and reality.

36:37

So like, give me an example. Yeah.

36:40

So, okay. I

36:42

learned this from Brandon Stanton, who's the

36:44

photographer behind Humans of New York. He

36:47

interviews regular people on a daily basis

36:50

and he often has like 10 or 15

36:52

minutes with them. It's not, you

36:54

know, two hours. So he's like, how do you build

36:56

intimacy quickly? One of the questions that

36:58

he asks is how

37:01

has your life turned out differently than you

37:03

expected it to? And the

37:05

reason that's such a powerful question

37:07

is because it introduces conflict, like

37:10

internal turmoil in

37:12

the subject. They're like, oh man, like I

37:15

really thought my life would be this way,

37:17

but then I got this drug addiction and

37:19

now it's this way. And you see how

37:21

like, it's almost like the life

37:23

unlived, all the different possibilities of the

37:25

way your life could have turned out

37:28

and the way it actually did. So

37:30

it forces the subject to kind of

37:32

consider two realities and build a connection

37:35

between them and be like, this is

37:37

the reason why my life did not

37:39

turn out this way. Yeah,

37:42

that is really good. You know, I've never

37:44

tried that question. I should, that's a really

37:47

good way to get fast intimacy.

37:50

And you mentioned Ira Glass also in that. He

37:53

does. Yeah. And

37:55

I was like, how did you think the

37:57

situation was going to work out before it

38:00

happened? And then how did it really work

38:02

out? It's something in my book,

38:04

I talk about Aaron Sorkin who wrote The

38:06

Social Network and a bunch of other films,

38:08

but he talks about a

38:10

good story has to

38:13

have conflict and intent. And this is what

38:15

this question has. It has conflict and has

38:17

intent. What did you want to happen versus

38:19

what actually happened because of all these challenges

38:22

that stood in the way? And

38:24

you know, I wonder, so Ira

38:26

Glass's version of this, as you just said, how did

38:29

you think the situation was going

38:31

to work out before it happened? And then how did it really

38:33

work out? That's kind of a broader,

38:37

so Brandon Standens, how does your life turned out

38:39

differently than you expected it to? The

38:42

situation there is your life, but Ira Glass

38:45

broadens it out. It could be any situation,

38:47

not just your life. Is there any other

38:49

kind of way to bring up that kind

38:51

of conflict real quickly like that? Well,

38:54

I was going to say like that, so that

38:57

I call that a gap question, how

38:59

did this work out and how

39:01

did you think it would work out and how did it actually

39:03

work out? You could also

39:05

get a lot out of the person in

39:08

their decision making if you dig a little

39:10

deeper and be like, well,

39:13

were you worried? What were you doing

39:16

in that gap? Were you worrying about

39:18

how it was going to turn out?

39:20

Were you, you know, you're just like,

39:23

whatever, who cares? It tells you a

39:25

lot about the person's mentality and how

39:27

they look at problems and how they

39:30

solve problems. But I think another, to

39:33

answer your question, another way to ask that

39:35

could be like, because

39:37

we're assuming that a person

39:39

had a vision of something amazing

39:41

that would have happened and it actually did not

39:44

work out. But if you were to ask me

39:46

that question, I would have said I actually thought

39:48

my life would be way worse than

39:50

it turned out. You know what I mean? But yeah, I

39:53

was wondering that when you were saying this, because a

39:55

lot of this, like it's almost like when Brandon

39:57

stands and is everybody's

40:00

mildly depressed at the incident. That's

40:02

true. Work out the

40:04

way they thought. But what you just

40:06

said about, okay, so there's this gap, but

40:09

then the follow-up question is how do they

40:11

deal with that gap? That's where the meat is. So

40:14

it's like you open the gap and then

40:16

that's where you're kind of getting the seeds

40:19

and getting the

40:21

real meat of the fruit there. In

40:24

the article, I say exploring the gap can give you

40:26

a window into how the subject feels about their life.

40:29

Do they have regrets about the past or are

40:31

they grateful for their present? Are

40:33

they proud of the choices they made or do they

40:35

wish they could have a do-over? So

40:37

it's introducing regret. Another good

40:40

question is what if

40:42

something in your life that you regret happened

40:44

or that you regret a decision that you

40:46

made, something like that? So let me

40:48

ask you about that because a lot of

40:50

people say it's almost like a cliche

40:53

for people to answer that, oh, I

40:55

have no regrets because otherwise I wouldn't.

40:59

People do really have regrets. Of

41:01

course they do. If you

41:03

did this differently in 2012, maybe

41:07

your babies would be different

41:10

since then. So I get that. In a

41:12

science fiction sense, you have no regrets. But

41:15

really, how do you dig deeper for

41:17

that? How do you dig deeper for

41:19

the actual regrets? I think you set

41:21

the stage of assuming you would still

41:23

end up in the same place. Do

41:25

you have something that you regret that

41:27

you wish you could do over? Yeah,

41:30

that's a good way to do it. So you

41:33

get rid of their objection. Yes. Because

41:35

the one objection is that I

41:38

don't really want anything right now to change. But

41:42

so, okay, so number three, and this

41:44

is a good one because I always

41:47

am trying to figure out Joe Rogan, who

41:49

obviously has the most popular podcast on the

41:51

planet. And I really enjoy the way he

41:53

has conversations. And they are interviews, but they

41:56

don't seem like it. So

41:58

number three is a great one. interviewer

42:00

mirrors to gather more

42:02

intel. So maybe describe

42:04

what that is. Yeah, I

42:06

actually think you did it earlier, so we'll have

42:09

to listen back. But basically,

42:12

for Joe Rogan and a lot

42:14

of really, really amazing interviews, interviewers

42:16

do is a technique called mirroring,

42:19

which is, I'll say something and

42:21

I'll stop. And then the interviewer

42:24

will take the last phrase of

42:26

my last sentence and turn it

42:28

into a question. So the example

42:30

I gave is somebody went on

42:32

Joe Rogan's podcast and she said

42:34

a statistic 42% of

42:37

the rising generation have had a mental

42:39

health diagnosis. And then he said 42%

42:41

of kids have a mental health diagnosis.

42:43

So he's just repeating back her

42:46

statement is a question, expecting her

42:48

to elaborate more. Yeah,

42:51

and I think I

42:53

think that is really valuable because a

42:57

it shows that you know, that's valuable

42:59

a couple different layers. One is, as

43:01

you point out, that forces them to

43:03

go beyond the statistic and add more

43:05

context and information and so on. And

43:07

maybe tell a story, but it also

43:10

makes Joe Rogan in that specific

43:13

case, the voice of

43:15

the 10 million listeners or 50. However,

43:18

you know, the million listeners, because we're all

43:20

skeptical of it too, or we don't, we

43:22

don't really, it's mind boggling, or

43:24

how do we understand make sense of that statistic.

43:27

And so he becomes the

43:29

voice of all his

43:31

readers as opposed to being Joe Rogan

43:34

interviewing somebody. Yeah. And it

43:36

like, you're right. It, it

43:38

asks a question out of genuine

43:40

curiosity, but it also introduces skepticism.

43:42

Is that true? And they

43:44

end up looking it up on the show to

43:46

see if it was true. How

43:49

does he like a lot of times, he

43:52

just gets into these just conversations with people

43:54

though, like, I'll have, I'll have like, I

43:57

saw one recently, like Louis C.K. was on his

43:59

show. And they

44:01

were just talking about the benefits

44:03

of cold showers, you know, the Wim

44:06

Hof cold shower,

44:08

you know, cold plunges method. And Joe Warren was saying,

44:10

as good as Louis C.K. is like, I don't really

44:12

care. And I

44:14

guess he sort of trusted Louis C.K. as

44:16

an interesting enough guess that they could talk

44:19

about anything and it'll be interesting content, which

44:21

is hard to do really for many

44:23

podcasts and interviews. Like you can't just

44:25

let the, you just can't

44:27

let the topics be about anything. But Joe Rogen

44:30

does it really well. Yes.

44:32

And, but, but also like right now,

44:34

the way we're talking, this is how

44:36

we would be talking, even if

44:38

this wasn't being recorded. But it's

44:41

also because this is my, I think third time

44:43

on your show. So I feel very comfortable with

44:45

you. If it was my first time, I would

44:47

be like, um, well, number three says that they

44:49

explore like that, but you know, it's

44:52

like, it's like, he's already, Louis C.K. is his

44:54

friend. So it's like almost as if we

44:57

are listening to a conversation between friends

44:59

and that's the magic of it. I

45:02

think that's right. And I think like

45:04

my favorite podcast, I

45:06

don't know. And I would probably

45:08

have to say my best podcasts have been

45:10

where it's a repeat guest. Yes. And

45:13

so I, pretty early on, I learned the value

45:15

of having repeat guests, like just continuing the conversation

45:17

we've always been having. And that

45:20

is a great

45:23

technique. And that's what Joe Rogen does. He basically just

45:25

has his friends on and, uh, and

45:28

they just have a fun time. Multiple

45:30

times. Yeah. I mean, he's,

45:32

he, he's the king of repeat guests. And

45:35

I guess like that's true for Howard Stern as well. And

45:38

because they, they, because people are listening

45:40

for them, like you listen, you turn

45:42

into Joe Rogen, maybe in part for

45:44

the guests, but also largely because, uh,

45:47

you know, his listeners love him. Howard's

45:50

listeners love him. Oprah's lives. They love her.

45:53

Almost doesn't matter who they're interviewing. Yeah. And

45:55

it's also, there's something about the interviewing

45:57

your friend thing where, um, if you.

46:00

have some sort of relationship

46:02

or connection or friendship before

46:04

the interview, the interviewer, it's

46:06

not as abrasive for them to ask a

46:09

hard question. You know, like, if somebody says

46:11

something, and they're my friend, I'd

46:13

be like, Come on, you know, that's complete BS. Can

46:15

you tell the actual story? You know, like, that's not

46:17

as reverse as if I didn't know them. And I

46:20

said that. Yeah, and

46:22

I think the goal in an interview, let's

46:24

say it's a first time guess, my goal

46:26

always is to try to get

46:29

to that point as quickly as possible

46:31

in the interview. And sometimes it's not

46:33

easy. Like, it's really hard to kind

46:36

of get that level of intimacy in

46:38

a first interview. But I tried

46:41

to get that, but it's difficult. Yeah,

46:43

definitely. Go

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47:47

number four here is, and this is

47:49

one that is a critical one because

47:51

I used to be accused of doing

47:54

this. When I first started my podcast, people

47:56

would say to me, let your

47:58

subject talk. And

48:01

so number four you have is the great a great

48:03

interview masters the art of interruption The

48:05

best interviewers know when to interject and you

48:07

have a great example. What can you talk

48:09

about your example? Yes So

48:12

yeah, you have to interject Otherwise I I

48:14

personally really hate it when somebody goes on

48:16

and on and on and then there's they

48:18

make so many points in that Really long

48:20

monologue, but the host hasn't stopped them to

48:23

explore it. So they just go unexamined A

48:26

really good example is Oprah with her

48:28

Prince Harry and Meghan Markle bombshell interview

48:30

that everybody tuned in to watch So

48:33

Oprah going into this knows that this is

48:35

gonna be watched by millions of people. She's

48:38

well aware of the pressure She

48:40

knows that she can't just let

48:42

Meghan and Harry talk and say whatever

48:44

they want She has to interrupt them

48:46

and examine every single thing that they

48:48

said. So at one point Meghan

48:51

Markle says something like well

48:54

The palace was really concerned with

48:56

what color skin my baby would

48:58

have before he was born and

49:00

Oprah just I Don't think

49:02

Megan meant I think it just kind of came out

49:04

I don't think she planned to say this you

49:07

see her like starting to like fidget

49:09

in her seat She gets super uncomfortable

49:11

Oprah goes hold she like throws

49:13

her hands up in there says hold on

49:15

hold on I have to she says hold

49:17

up stop right now and she goes there

49:19

was a Conversation with you

49:21

about how dark your baby is going

49:23

to be so she again mirrors says

49:26

exactly what Meghan Markle said in her Last

49:28

communication, but she does it in this like

49:30

big showy manner Now the

49:32

spotlight is back on Megan and Megan's like,

49:34

oh actually actually no, it wasn't a conversation

49:37

with me. It was with Harry I wasn't

49:39

there Also, I

49:41

she says she didn't hear

49:43

it directly from the source and she declined to

49:45

reveal who said it because it may be too

49:48

Damaging if Oprah hadn't stopped her

49:50

people would assume that somebody told

49:53

Megan to her face What color

49:55

skin will your base like it's

49:57

crazy. So it's in that way

50:00

way as an interviewer, you're almost like

50:02

a, you're fact checking on

50:04

the fly. And that's what Oprah

50:06

did here. It was really, really well done. And

50:08

also, I guess Megan, if

50:10

Oprah hadn't done that, maybe

50:13

Megan would have been obsessing in

50:15

her mind for the rest of the interview,

50:17

like, Oh my gosh, what did I say?

50:19

Do I have to clarify this? So Oprah gives her

50:21

a chance to kind of like soften it. Yeah.

50:24

And, and, and that builds a

50:26

rapport and a relationship. And you

50:28

would give another example with Letterman

50:30

and Kim Kardashian about her political views.

50:34

And so good. Yeah. Like, you

50:37

know, that's a, that's a bigger example,

50:39

but, and you, you mentioned that Letterman

50:41

Letterman is an interesting interviewer because he's

50:43

so quirky. I'm not even quite

50:46

sure that he is. You

50:48

know, it's an, if it's a

50:50

style you want to aspire to, because his interviews

50:53

are very quick and a lot of it is

50:55

surface, even in the, is not so much in

50:57

his Netflix show, but older Netflix show, but in

50:59

his main late night show that he

51:02

did for so many years, you know,

51:05

it's, he's really just trying to get laughs

51:07

from the audience and maybe a tiny spark

51:09

in the interviewer in the interview. So it's

51:12

not, it's not that intense,

51:14

but he does, he

51:16

does, I would say more than interruption. He

51:19

does like what I would call like a

51:21

pattern disrupt. It's like, he'll do something weird.

51:23

Yes. Yes. And David Letterman for me is

51:25

one of the weirdest, like I have a

51:27

really hard time watching his interviews because I'm

51:30

like, he, he interrupts, I think too much,

51:32

but it's part of his thing. And then

51:34

he'll say something about himself. I'm like, David,

51:36

I don't want to know this about you.

51:39

I want to hear about Kim Kardashian. But

51:42

like that's part of his style. And

51:44

again, it's very hard to imitate because

51:46

it's him. It's very much him. And

51:48

in this example, for the people listening

51:50

who haven't read the article, he basically

51:52

sits down with Kim Kardashian. He said

51:54

he wants to ask her about her political

51:57

loyalties because she's previously

51:59

in. Hillary Clinton, but then she

52:01

worked with Donald Trump to get this

52:03

woman out of prison. So Letterman goes,

52:05

do you feel like what's being done

52:07

on behalf of sentencing reform now via

52:10

this current administration in any way allows

52:12

the balance of democracy back in a

52:14

corridor of viability? And

52:16

Kim Kardashian is like, I have no idea what

52:18

you just said. He goes,

52:20

I'll try again. I'm grateful for what you're

52:22

doing, but it doesn't make me feel better

52:24

about the current administration. And she

52:26

starts, she starts

52:29

answering. I understand, and he interrupts her very

52:31

abruptly and goes, let me ask you who

52:33

you're voting for. And so

52:35

like, I think part of his technique, and I

52:38

don't even know if he does this consciously, he

52:40

starts out in this very like confusing

52:42

place. He

52:44

confuses his interviewee. By the time they

52:46

figure out what's going on, he just

52:49

interrupts with a very direct question. And

52:51

in this way is the interviewee you

52:53

want to answer because you now understand

52:55

the question. You know, and I wonder,

52:57

I don't know if he does that

52:59

consciously because I think he's a very like smart

53:02

intellectual guy. So he might have

53:04

been wondering, oh, the corridors

53:06

of democracy, right? Like, like he might

53:08

be thinking like, Oh, she

53:11

since she's like Clint Hillary

53:13

Clinton, what is she doing with Trump?

53:15

So he's saying in this very nuanced

53:17

political way, maybe he realizes in

53:19

the interview that he really just wants to

53:21

know who she's voting for. Yes,

53:24

that can very much be it. And

53:27

also he realizes he's I don't want to

53:29

say he's speaking above her head. I'm sure

53:31

she's very intelligent also. But yeah, he maybe

53:33

he realized he wasn't being so clear. And

53:36

so then he's smart enough to get as

53:38

direct as possible. Yes, by

53:41

the way, why can't she just

53:43

because she likes one candidate, I know, why

53:45

can't she do something effective for somebody who's

53:47

president United States, regardless of who they are?

53:50

That's how polarizes become. We

53:52

cannot have this dichotomy of

53:54

Kim Kardashian James. Right.

53:57

Like, like people on both sides, people

53:59

are willing to. break the law to

54:01

get their candidates in. And

54:03

it's just like just ridiculous how polarizing people

54:06

have been as opposed to wanting to just

54:08

be just do good in society. Exactly.

54:11

I agree. Let's

54:13

see. Number five, they

54:15

make assumptions on purpose.

54:18

And I think that's a

54:20

little bit of the gotcha thing as well. But

54:22

but you use the Oprah example again.

54:25

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be done in a

54:27

gotcha way. It could be like, here's how I understand

54:29

it. And then you let the person agree or disagree

54:32

with you. I think

54:34

in this one, I wanted to talk about

54:36

how the interviewer is a representative of

54:38

their reader or listener or whatever. So

54:41

Oprah knew that in and she kind

54:43

of addressed the elephant in the room,

54:45

which was she knew that the person

54:47

watching at home is watching this. And

54:50

Harry is kind of painting himself as the victim of

54:53

the system. And she's like, Oh, man, oh, man,

54:56

I know what people are thinking, I have to

54:58

ask it. And so she says, and it's not

55:00

done in a very confrontational way, just kind of

55:02

like, like in a funny

55:05

way. She says, please explain how

55:07

you Prince Harry raised in a

55:10

palace in a life of privilege,

55:12

literally a prince, how you were

55:14

trapped. And it's like, she

55:16

makes it, you know, she

55:19

addresses that. And then he, yeah,

55:22

and then he responds with, oh, well, it's

55:24

a system of wealth and all this stuff

55:26

that you're trapped in. But she doesn't buy

55:28

his response. So then she makes the assumption

55:31

she says, so the impression of the world,

55:33

maybe it's a false impression, is that all

55:35

these years before Megan, you were living your

55:37

life as a royal prince Harry, the beloved

55:39

Prince Harry, and that you were enjoying that

55:42

life. We didn't get the impression that you

55:44

were feeling trapped in that life. So she

55:46

says, like, here's what we assumed. Is that

55:48

true or not? And it forces him to

55:50

take a stance. Yeah.

55:52

And it's interesting too, because as opposed to

55:55

the Joe Rogan example, where he, he

55:57

really becomes the voice of the listener, like

56:00

Oh, we're all of us 10 million people

56:02

are skeptical or we want to know more

56:04

about this thing she's almost

56:07

like a Translator

56:10

like it's as if there's a gap

56:12

between what her she

56:14

understands there's a gap between what her audience

56:16

thinks and what Harry is saying

56:18

and see she's trying to bridge that gap as

56:20

opposed to as opposed

56:22

to just being the voice of The

56:25

the listener she's trying to translate

56:28

What the listener might be thinking and what Harry might

56:30

be thinking so there's a there's an intersection Yeah,

56:33

she keeps giving them the opportunity to explain

56:35

themselves And then I watched an

56:37

interview with her about her interview and she said

56:39

that's all I was trying to do I was

56:42

just trying to let them Explain

56:44

their decision and you know, I think she did

56:47

a great job Yeah,

56:49

and so Howard Stern. How does he you mentioned

56:51

Howard Stern to I Have

56:54

my own thoughts on his style, but how can you

56:56

talk about the example you get for Howard Stern? Yeah,

56:59

so I I will admit I was not

57:01

a big Howard Stern listener Until

57:04

I wrote this and then a bunch of

57:06

people told me to go, you know watch

57:08

and listen to his interviews and

57:10

what I noticed is that he he

57:12

I Don't know if

57:14

he thinks that he knows these people or he

57:16

just like makes assumptions and let's let's

57:19

them Elaborate but for

57:21

example with Lindsay Lohan He said a

57:23

bunch of stuff where he assumed things

57:25

about how she thinks and

57:28

he says, you know When you see like

57:30

an Emma Stone or Jessica Chastain, they got

57:32

a similar look to you I can tell

57:34

you thought about this when you see some

57:36

of those movies don't you sit there and

57:38

go? Oh, I can effing do those movies.

57:40

It's gotta be driving you nuts So

57:42

he claims that he knows how Lindsay Lohan

57:44

feels and she's like, yeah, that is

57:46

exactly what I think you

57:49

know, that's interesting like kind of

57:51

putting yourself on the on the side of

57:55

The interviewee like the person you're interviewing and

57:57

he does a Very good. It

58:00

may go along with because What? He's very

58:02

powerful guys so. Yeah. And then

58:04

is in there is kind of taking their

58:06

side so. He. He I think I think

58:09

with him. He's. Very interesting because

58:11

I I think he tries to. Get

58:13

dirt. About everybody during the

58:15

interview. And. They all the

58:18

At first I noticed a lot of

58:20

interviews people say no I don't want

58:22

to talk about that was and by

58:24

doing this technique. He. Kind of

58:26

gets in their head and off at he's on

58:28

their side and he's. He's. Not the

58:30

listeners voice, he's bear voice and finally

58:32

there like I'm talking to myself. So

58:34

finally they are able to see like

58:37

I saw him interview Jonah Hill once.

58:40

And. He. Was like

58:42

so when you had that your first role

58:44

did you start like of insects of Loud

58:46

Girls as even though you're kind of fat

58:48

such as a he's a very direct and

58:50

his what and don't join else really on

58:52

car was like our our ill arms about

58:54

that we just talk about the movie and.

58:57

But. He like. So. So

58:59

they they talked to him and he's doing

59:01

this where he's like on their silence but

59:04

he keeps every now and then how ass

59:06

like the real hard question and. That.

59:08

Giorno the I was a book by the

59:10

end. Jonah Hill's like listing all the girls

59:12

he has eczema now way yeah like he.

59:14

he just works his way in and he

59:16

just keeps poking but then he'll get back

59:18

to like our of and I'm on your

59:20

side. I'm like. You. Know. Yeah.

59:24

You know, and and I think it's Ie

59:26

combines He uses this technique that you're talking

59:28

about the route to. Sort. Of

59:30

get inside and and the person's head

59:32

and then finally there was super comfortable

59:34

so they say they forget the on

59:36

the radio and eight hours. Yeah

59:38

I watched as forget which sorry it was

59:41

that they were explaining the experience of way

59:43

they shared so much on the shelves and

59:45

they were like it almost feels like you

59:47

enter the site different saying and there's no

59:50

cameras know there's nothing You forget that all

59:52

this stuff is around you and you're just

59:54

having conversation and in it ends and you're

59:56

like why did I just say you know

59:58

it's like a that. Feeling of one?

1:00:00

Just half it and and that's the

1:00:03

best. Interviewers make it seem like time

1:00:05

just go flies by and you don't

1:00:07

even know what's going on. The.

1:00:09

I've heard that to from people who have been

1:00:11

on Stern Show that. At. First they

1:00:13

tell themselves in May I'm not going to

1:00:15

talk about X, Y, and Z and by

1:00:18

the end they can figure out how it

1:00:20

happened. But they talked about all those things

1:00:22

they want to talk about. Crazy.

1:00:25

So. Number Six years. the

1:00:27

great interviewers remove barriers to

1:00:30

enhance intimacy. And

1:00:32

I'll do this. example of son Evans said.

1:00:34

Shown as as he has a usually

1:00:36

that. The obvious example is you remove

1:00:38

chairs and are you move tables and

1:00:41

things like that in between the interviewer

1:00:43

an interview he to build intimacy quickly.

1:00:45

I'm so Oprah sit on the same

1:00:47

couch like things like that but it's

1:00:50

not just physical objects that you can

1:00:52

remove to build into the sea is

1:00:54

sometimes like an election evans with the

1:00:56

hot ones our they eat progressively harder

1:00:59

of chicken wings or throughout the interview

1:01:01

it's. You. Are on removing like

1:01:03

the barrier of like you're breathing down

1:01:05

the guess composer because everybody comes in

1:01:07

like super the way I'm ready to

1:01:10

do this interview and then by the

1:01:12

end when the real eating of really

1:01:14

spicy chicken wings like they're crying, your

1:01:16

nose is running, their throat is burning

1:01:18

and you know a lot of them

1:01:21

just can't handle it in you see

1:01:23

like Tyra Banks had a ridiculous reaction.

1:01:25

Of the show you see their

1:01:27

true true colors. On So

1:01:29

Eat Our A included this clip

1:01:31

of Sydney Sweeney. but she's she's

1:01:33

really trying so hard to hold

1:01:35

on to her composure In Nc

1:01:37

like please like a issue her

1:01:40

voice is seeking. it's super high

1:01:42

pitch exacerbating the watch. So.

1:01:44

What do you do like? like. I. Used to

1:01:46

do party has in person before Cove it

1:01:48

but since Cove is very rare that I

1:01:50

do a podcast in person and and you

1:01:53

probably interview on the phone or zoom or

1:01:55

whatever like how do you do this technique

1:01:57

if there's a lot of i built in

1:01:59

bed the years. And. Yeah, I

1:02:01

mean it is a super hard to

1:02:03

do is it normally the best interviews

1:02:05

especially the ones like a magazine profiles

1:02:07

for example you're doing you often doing

1:02:09

an activity with the person so you

1:02:11

you know whether you're at a restaurant

1:02:13

having dinner, you see how they move

1:02:15

through the world, how they treat the

1:02:17

weight, how they you know all the

1:02:19

south context clues that they can't just

1:02:22

tell you have a generous person well

1:02:24

you didn't even leave a tip you

1:02:26

know and that that anything on but.

1:02:29

Thanks. This is hard because I

1:02:31

can tell you how ran by he

1:02:33

is. Unless you see me and my

1:02:35

natural habitat, it's hard. Ah, I don't

1:02:37

know era when you think when I.

1:02:40

I I think it's I think it's the repeat.

1:02:42

Guess thing is yeah one way so you see

1:02:44

you can have a hard time that first time

1:02:46

but then it gets easier. I. Think

1:02:49

the pre interview like you know you're on for

1:02:51

your little bad news or shouting. And.

1:02:54

But. I think I think it's really hard

1:02:56

now or or sometimes. I'll.

1:02:58

Try to do an activity and then

1:03:01

a week later. Do. An interview and

1:03:03

but again, I swear so it's hard to do

1:03:05

that. It is also

1:03:07

on. One interesting thing at

1:03:09

a could be that you sound out a

1:03:12

really interesting piece of information about the person

1:03:14

in you. bring it up like in the

1:03:16

middle of the interview. It's kind of like

1:03:18

us small bomb goes off. Words like oh

1:03:21

wow, how did you know this and that

1:03:23

breaks down the little like a facade a

1:03:25

little. That. I

1:03:27

try to do so. I try to find. Like.

1:03:31

The odd things in their backgrounds.

1:03:33

That. I could bring up and then

1:03:36

connect. With. Things they might

1:03:38

be saying now. His mom I don't

1:03:40

really have a good example, but. He

1:03:43

will you measure before how like you you

1:03:45

read the some eat or you you knew

1:03:47

someone did peers the Eiger university Athens So

1:03:49

I might go as far as the read

1:03:51

the Phd. These. Their deceased the

1:03:53

road and try to find. Some.

1:03:56

connection between that thesis and what's going

1:03:58

on in their lives right now and

1:04:01

or or relate

1:04:03

it to you know related

1:04:06

to something they're doing now in a way that they might

1:04:08

not even have thought of and so I'll

1:04:10

try to kind of like you know

1:04:12

confuse them with over researching exactly

1:04:15

exactly just like something that's

1:04:17

unconventional they're not expecting yeah

1:04:21

now this is a really important one

1:04:23

and number seven here's a great

1:04:25

interviewer strives to capture the juice of

1:04:28

the story and yet Barbara Walters interviewing

1:04:30

Monica Lewinsky and there's a lot of

1:04:32

different angles it's like a you know

1:04:35

it's a president of the United States it's the

1:04:38

sexual things everybody wants to hear like

1:04:40

the sexiest details yeah as sort

1:04:42

it is and it might be but

1:04:44

with with this

1:04:47

example you give about Monica Lewinsky named

1:04:49

Barbara Walters it really is the juice

1:04:51

of the story like how

1:04:54

she was worried about what her mother would

1:04:57

think and we can all relate to

1:04:59

that doing something that's gonna be public and like

1:05:01

oh what are people gonna think if

1:05:03

they found find this out yeah and that's

1:05:06

that you know Barbara Walters

1:05:08

is really good at that yes and

1:05:10

it's like it's um oh it's

1:05:13

such a good interview for so many

1:05:15

reasons but it's mainly because Barbara Walters

1:05:18

knows that she doesn't go there I

1:05:20

mean she asks all the direct newsworthy

1:05:22

questions but what she does is like

1:05:24

she gets into Monica's head and by

1:05:27

the end you're like I get it

1:05:29

I get why she's in love with

1:05:31

Bill Clinton but also at the

1:05:33

same time you're like I cannot believe this

1:05:35

happened it's it's it's fascinating

1:05:38

it's like a masterclass in

1:05:40

interviewing and she humanizes Monica

1:05:42

to the point where you're

1:05:44

like wow like you know

1:05:46

young girl bad decision-making all

1:05:48

this stuff irresponsible president but

1:05:51

you it's like she refers to

1:05:53

the juice is the details of the

1:05:55

story that humanized the person that you're

1:05:58

interviewing and Barbara says Don't

1:06:00

be so intent on getting just the facts

1:06:02

that you take out all the juice. Yeah.

1:06:05

And it's interesting because she kind of layers

1:06:08

into this. So like,

1:06:10

you know, you like Lewinsky says, I

1:06:13

felt very responsible. And Barbara

1:06:15

Walter says, responsible for what? Exactly.

1:06:18

And by the way, that was, there's a nuance there

1:06:20

because she didn't say, why do you feel responsible? I

1:06:22

would have taken it in a completely different direction. Lewinsky

1:06:24

say, well, I agreed to go into

1:06:26

his office, blah, blah, blah. And

1:06:28

she says, responsible for what? And

1:06:31

that led to the discussion of her mother. But

1:06:33

then that allows her to

1:06:35

get enough intimacy with Monica

1:06:37

that she says, Monica, are

1:06:39

you still in love with Bill Clinton? Right. And she

1:06:41

uses Monica's name. She says Monica. She doesn't say, are

1:06:43

you still in love with Bill Clinton? So it's more

1:06:45

personal when she uses the name. And if she had

1:06:48

started off with, are you still in love with Bill

1:06:50

Clinton? I think that would have been a different answer,

1:06:53

a different interview then. Yeah.

1:06:56

The whole interview like builds on itself.

1:06:58

It's fascinating to watch. I think

1:07:00

that's really hard. I think, and as

1:07:02

you mentioned later, the only way to

1:07:04

get that skill is doing lots of

1:07:07

interviews. Yeah, it's true. And

1:07:09

it's like, you, you notice so many things

1:07:11

as you're watching it. Like at one point

1:07:13

Monica Lewinsky, I didn't include this, but in

1:07:15

the interview she says, you

1:07:18

know, at one point my mom, like I

1:07:20

couldn't shower alone. My mom would sit in

1:07:22

the bathroom with me while I showered because

1:07:24

they were all afraid that I might do

1:07:26

something. She's obviously talking about like, you know,

1:07:28

my take her own life, but

1:07:31

Barbara Walters is very skilled at like

1:07:33

knowing when to dig deeper and knowing

1:07:36

when to kind of back off. And

1:07:39

she says this in another interview,

1:07:42

Barbara Walters says that she's like, you

1:07:44

know, for the really, really painful stuff,

1:07:46

I'm not going to keep digging until I

1:07:48

break you basically. I'm going to like get

1:07:50

there and then back off. And

1:07:52

that's a skill and that's like a, you

1:07:55

know, social awareness skill that not

1:07:57

everybody has. And also

1:07:59

knowing that that she could go back

1:08:01

to it later. Like she's

1:08:03

patient, Barbara Walters. And

1:08:05

again, she's almost become a

1:08:07

cliche interviewer. I mean, not her, but

1:08:10

like just the way people think about

1:08:12

her. But I think people underestimate her

1:08:15

full power as an interviewer, Barbara

1:08:17

Walters. Totally. Totally.

1:08:20

I mean, cause then she later on, she's doing stuff like

1:08:22

the view and all that. But you may, you give an

1:08:24

example and the next thing, challenging

1:08:27

a subject's perspective with genuine curiosity. She

1:08:29

interviewed a Shah of Iran, you

1:08:32

know, right before he's getting overthrown. She

1:08:34

was like the biggest interviewer on the planet at that point. I

1:08:37

know. I know. And

1:08:39

it's interesting. A lot of times she became friends. I think

1:08:41

that was kind of like, wait a second. She became friends

1:08:43

with the people that she interviewed. She became friends with Monica

1:08:45

Lewinsky. And I believe

1:08:47

the Shah of Iran. But

1:08:50

it's interesting because like, I

1:08:52

do think like a really

1:08:54

in depth human interview has

1:08:57

no choice but to leave the people like,

1:08:59

Oh, we know each other on a different

1:09:01

level. You know? Yeah.

1:09:04

I think when you, when you

1:09:06

really are able to go a couple

1:09:08

of layers deep and then, you know,

1:09:10

she was asking, she was trying to ask him and

1:09:12

talk to him about his views on women and,

1:09:15

you know, coming from a Muslim

1:09:17

country and so on. In 1977. Yeah.

1:09:21

Yeah. And, you know, on the

1:09:23

one hand, I don't know how

1:09:27

completely we treat women differently now, but

1:09:29

at least at that point in the

1:09:31

70s was the height of the, you

1:09:34

know, glorious dynamism tradition, original

1:09:36

feminism movement and things like

1:09:38

the equal rights amendment were

1:09:40

being discussed. And, and so

1:09:43

it was a different conversation, but it was still a

1:09:45

very big conversation in America, maybe for the first time.

1:09:48

And I don't

1:09:50

know. It might've actually been, you know, then

1:09:52

a year later, he's overthrown and the U.S.

1:09:54

really didn't help him. And we got left

1:09:57

with what we have now, this kind

1:09:59

of. you know religious you

1:10:02

know super religious government iran that most of

1:10:04

the people don't like most of the people

1:10:06

wanted the sha of iran in iran and

1:10:08

now most of the people in iran are

1:10:10

secular and they're ruled by this. Super

1:10:13

religious and do not know any of

1:10:15

this okay i like iran. Does

1:10:18

not like their government like the people there

1:10:20

they and that's why they they literally beg

1:10:22

the outside world to understand this because they

1:10:24

don't want to get bombed if

1:10:26

their government does something like they

1:10:28

prefer not to be they were

1:10:30

completely western country under the shot

1:10:32

almost not completely but almost. And

1:10:35

now they're not but they don't want they want

1:10:37

people to know that so that. They

1:10:40

don't get blamed if i ran bombs israel

1:10:42

they don't want to get bombed back if

1:10:44

they're not like their government

1:10:47

i'm gonna do some research after this. Yeah

1:10:50

and i think that was a mistake for for

1:10:53

jimmy carter at the time to not. Help

1:10:56

the the shot a little more because we yeah

1:10:58

we didn't like some of the things he did.

1:11:01

But that's like every country in the world will like

1:11:04

most of the things the french do either but

1:11:06

we're still there ally. Oh there's

1:11:08

so many layers here. Yeah

1:11:11

and and and barbara walters is

1:11:13

you know i think she understood

1:11:15

that like he's a dictator but

1:11:18

he was still kind of our friend and

1:11:20

then we we can't can you can't

1:11:22

condone you don't condone everything your friends

1:11:24

do obviously and particularly at that geopolitical

1:11:26

level but he was certainly much better

1:11:29

than than what happened. Yeah.

1:11:32

You know number nine is they know all

1:11:34

humans seek genuine validation and

1:11:36

this is really important to. Yeah

1:11:39

this i found fascinating because opera

1:11:43

talks about how pretty much

1:11:45

every person that she's interviewed including

1:11:48

george w bush brocco bebop Beyonce

1:11:50

anybody she's interviewed. After

1:11:52

the interview and they always ask i

1:11:54

bet you you get this question to

1:11:57

you there like who was that good

1:11:59

that okay. And it's like, and

1:12:01

she's like, what do you mean? You're a Beyonce.

1:12:03

Of course it was okay. But like everybody has

1:12:05

that small piece of them that's like, did

1:12:08

you like what I said? And do you

1:12:10

think this will resonate with people? And I

1:12:12

think a great interviewer's job is to make

1:12:14

the person feel validated in

1:12:17

like, in like actually listened to during

1:12:19

the interview. Yeah.

1:12:21

And I think this happens at every

1:12:23

level. Like, so for many years I

1:12:25

did standup comedy and then I owned

1:12:27

part of a standup comedy club. So

1:12:29

I would see all these great comedians

1:12:31

perform on stage. You know, they'd be

1:12:33

trying out material for their special or

1:12:35

whatever. And no

1:12:37

matter how famous the comedian was, like

1:12:40

they always asked that too. Like, was that okay? Was that

1:12:42

good? Did you think the audience liked me? And

1:12:45

people are, people are human. They

1:12:47

want to know, they want to be liked. Exactly.

1:12:51

I thought that was really like, I was like, I

1:12:53

would have never thought, but yeah, I do it too.

1:12:55

It's crazy. Have

1:12:57

you interviewed any like hardcore criminals?

1:13:00

Oh my God. No, I don't think so. Like,

1:13:05

like anybody who's done in jail? Yes.

1:13:07

I interviewed, oh

1:13:09

my gosh. The

1:13:12

guy who Leonardo DiCaprio played in Catch Me If

1:13:14

You Can. Oh yeah. Frank

1:13:17

Agbignale. Frank Agbignale. I interviewed him as

1:13:19

well. Yeah, exactly. So fascinating. He was a big

1:13:21

criminal, but then he worked for the FBI. So

1:13:23

I don't know if that counts. Yeah, no.

1:13:25

And a lot of

1:13:27

times, you know, I

1:13:30

interviewed someone recently who committed

1:13:32

a fairly big fraud, like $400 million Ponzi

1:13:35

scheme. And

1:13:37

he went to jail for nine years. And

1:13:41

I think it was very important for

1:13:43

me interviewing him that

1:13:46

I didn't treat him like someone who did

1:13:48

something really bad, but I

1:13:50

still wanted to make sure my listeners knew

1:13:53

that it was clear this person did something bad

1:13:56

and I was against it. So it sometimes is

1:13:58

a tricky thing. Yeah, yeah,

1:14:00

because you're trying to be empathetic,

1:14:04

but there has to be a clear line of like,

1:14:06

you know, this is, I mean, we can all agree

1:14:08

that what you did was not right. You

1:14:11

know, it was tricky to like, like I interviewed

1:14:13

Andrew Tate. And okay, you know,

1:14:15

and Andrew Tate, obviously,

1:14:19

that's a whole mess. If you're trying

1:14:21

to be like by everybody, don't interview

1:14:23

Andrew Tate because nobody will. Right.

1:14:26

Everybody's gonna make a judgment. Oh, you must

1:14:28

agree with everything he says, or, or you

1:14:30

must like him or

1:14:32

he used you or whatever. So you

1:14:34

sometimes the interviewer has to balance all

1:14:36

of these things too. Yeah,

1:14:39

it's it's so hard. It's like,

1:14:42

you know, these people's views

1:14:45

would never go challenged if I didn't

1:14:47

interview them. You know what I mean?

1:14:49

Like, for anybody interviewing a dictator, are

1:14:51

you just quote unquote, giving them a

1:14:54

platform? Or are you interviewing them and

1:14:56

challenging what they think? So that more

1:14:58

people can, like, hear that it's BS?

1:15:01

I don't know. It's it's really difficult.

1:15:03

Like, let's say you had to interview Putin. Okay.

1:15:07

So now, okay, so

1:15:09

there's so many layers in which

1:15:12

you from Bulgaria, he's from Russia, this will

1:15:14

be a tough one, James. Right?

1:15:16

Like, for your family, when they might

1:15:18

say don't talk to him, or, and

1:15:21

then people might think you're will

1:15:23

make a judgment about whether you're a

1:15:25

Democrat or Republican. Oh, you know, only

1:15:27

Republicans would talk to Putin. But obviously,

1:15:30

he would be a fascinating person interview. I mean, he's on,

1:15:33

you know, he's a leader of Russia. He's

1:15:35

he's conducting a war. Whether you

1:15:37

agree with that war or not. Yeah, it's I would,

1:15:40

no matter what he did, I would

1:15:42

interview him. Yeah, well,

1:15:45

it's so tricky. It's like the whole

1:15:47

point of journalism,

1:15:50

in general, is to interview

1:15:52

people who are doing things

1:15:55

that are newsworthy, that are affecting the

1:15:57

world, all this stuff, by not by

1:16:00

ignoring someone doesn't make them go away.

1:16:02

In fact, it actually

1:16:04

fuels them more. I

1:16:07

don't know. There's a there's a whole

1:16:09

philosophical discussion on this. Yeah,

1:16:11

it gets back to the thing of you

1:16:14

have to join a team and then and

1:16:16

then only talk to the people

1:16:18

that that team approves. Exactly. And

1:16:20

it's like, I want nobody's team. I

1:16:22

just want to hear the information and

1:16:24

then challenge that information. Yeah,

1:16:26

like I, I was once on

1:16:28

the podcast talking to Mehdi Hassan who

1:16:30

had this show on MSNBC. Yes, there's

1:16:32

a profile on him right now. Oh,

1:16:35

yeah, I have seen that and I I

1:16:38

told him I'm neutral. I really tried

1:16:40

very hard to be neutral so I could talk

1:16:42

to everybody and not feel

1:16:44

biased. And he said there's no way

1:16:46

to be neutral. He challenged me on

1:16:49

that. And we were going to follow

1:16:51

up at some point and he was going to prove

1:16:53

to me that I wasn't neutral. And maybe

1:16:55

I'm not I don't know. But it was

1:16:57

the thing. I mean, I guess nobody's

1:16:59

truly neutral. But it's but I also,

1:17:02

you know, completely reject the

1:17:04

idea that you're either a Republican

1:17:06

or liberal. Like I don't fall

1:17:08

into any category. It's like really

1:17:10

hard. Maybe you're not neutral. You're

1:17:12

just like, not part of any

1:17:14

one group. Yeah,

1:17:16

where you have to like, do everything

1:17:18

that group says. Yeah. And

1:17:21

but then I wonder, look, the

1:17:24

podcasts that are the most popular take

1:17:26

a stance and are really biased. That's

1:17:29

true. I'm just not like that. Yeah,

1:17:31

it's that's not your style. And

1:17:34

the good thing with what you do is that you

1:17:36

could profile anybody. Yeah,

1:17:38

you're trying to take lessons from them. And

1:17:41

so you could choose. They don't they don't

1:17:43

you know, you you've seldom will profile like

1:17:45

a political person. That's

1:17:47

the thing like, I truly believe

1:17:49

that you can learn from awful

1:17:52

people about what not to do. You

1:17:54

know, like there's there's lessons in everybody.

1:17:56

It's not just like the good moral

1:17:59

whatever. people that we put on these like

1:18:01

pedestals, it's also the people like, oh my

1:18:03

god, look at how their life turned out.

1:18:05

I don't want that at all. Yeah,

1:18:09

like, like who's who would you

1:18:11

say is like the worst person in the world right now?

1:18:13

Would you would you interview that person? Oh

1:18:16

my god, I don't even know. It's

1:18:18

also like, you know, nobody

1:18:21

is like only evil or only good but

1:18:23

there are some pretty some

1:18:26

people are insane so that they are mentally ill

1:18:28

and bad. Okay, for

1:18:30

example, here's an example. So right now

1:18:32

I'm working on an article that's similar

1:18:34

to this interview in techniques, but it's

1:18:36

on public speaking. And I'm, you

1:18:39

know, on Twitter I asked who is the

1:18:41

greatest public speaker of all time. And of

1:18:43

course people came up with Hitler Mussolini, a

1:18:45

bunch of cult leaders, a bunch of other

1:18:48

dictators. And I'm like, I

1:18:50

get it. But in my article

1:18:52

right now I'm saying like, I understand that

1:18:54

these people are probably amazing public

1:18:57

speakers, I'm not going to include

1:18:59

them just because I do not

1:19:01

want to like feature their stories.

1:19:04

But the world's greatest speakers all

1:19:06

use similar techniques. That's not to

1:19:08

say they did or did not use

1:19:11

this is just I'm choosing my editorial

1:19:13

style is choosing not to include dictators

1:19:15

and cult leaders in this article. It's

1:19:18

really interesting because like, you

1:19:21

know, you're right, they all use

1:19:23

similar techniques. And

1:19:25

that's gonna be a fascinating article when

1:19:27

you write it. And I've written a lot about

1:19:29

public speaking as well because it

1:19:32

is another thing like interviewing where you're

1:19:34

trying to win over just

1:19:37

like in an interview, you're trying to win over an

1:19:39

audience. And and

1:19:41

there's there are specific techniques to do and

1:19:43

you have to be as genuine and sincere

1:19:45

as possible as well. But like a dictator

1:19:49

will, you

1:19:52

know, for instance, a dictator uses Robert

1:19:54

Chialdini's Exact frequency technique. Yeah,

1:19:57

like they'll use all his

1:19:59

techniques. It's like someone like

1:20:01

Hitler might say something like, wasn't

1:20:04

your life awful before? When

1:20:07

bread was like a gazillion marks

1:20:10

and people would say yes. And

1:20:13

then when I became leader, wasn't your life better?

1:20:15

And then it's a bigger yes. So it's like that consistency, like

1:20:18

getting them to say a small yes to get them to a

1:20:20

bigger yes. He was very effective at doing

1:20:22

things like that. And

1:20:26

cult leaders are like that as well.

1:20:30

It is just like up to the

1:20:32

person, like maybe you really don't like

1:20:34

me. I am not

1:20:36

entitled to be on your show. You

1:20:38

know what I mean? Like it's just,

1:20:40

I think that there, everybody, every person

1:20:42

has like a freedom to have

1:20:45

whoever they want on their platform. And

1:20:48

if they want to interview Putin

1:20:50

and ask them, ask him questions,

1:20:53

it's their right. Like I have, you will not

1:20:55

catch me not defending free speech. Yeah,

1:20:59

good. Good thing. And

1:21:04

look, let's see the, and you say here,

1:21:06

the only way to become a masterful interviewer

1:21:08

is to interview Larry King conducted more than

1:21:10

60,000 interviews in his career. Oprah

1:21:13

has done more than 37,000. Joe

1:21:15

Rogan has hosted more than 21 guests on his

1:21:17

podcast. It's really true. You've

1:21:20

got to do things. Yeah.

1:21:22

And it's like, once you

1:21:24

think about 60,000 interviews, that

1:21:26

is so many

1:21:28

or 20 or 37,000. And

1:21:32

then people think about Joe Rogan, you know,

1:21:34

oh, he has the biggest show, but he

1:21:36

has podcast, but he's only just 2100 recorded

1:21:39

interviews on his show. So it's like, and

1:21:41

you've done 1500. So it's like,

1:21:43

those are big numbers, but 60,000

1:21:46

is like a different universe. Yeah.

1:21:50

And, you know, and again, like he

1:21:52

does like, like Larry King

1:21:54

and those specifically are interviews and, and

1:21:56

Joe Rogan, it does, it still feels

1:21:58

so much like. conversations and I

1:22:01

really almost aspire to that.

1:22:05

But you have to use interview techniques. These

1:22:07

are all really important techniques. But

1:22:10

one thing I'm going to try at one point is

1:22:12

just give everybody, go on

1:22:14

Twitter, give everybody the Zoom link

1:22:16

and interview whoever just

1:22:19

comes on. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, just

1:22:21

to show that everybody's got a story.

1:22:23

And like, of course, Brandon Santin and

1:22:25

Humans of New York does that really

1:22:27

well. Yeah, there's a

1:22:29

thing. Sorry, what I

1:22:31

say is like, you don't have to

1:22:33

have a podcast to do an interview

1:22:35

or have a conversation. It's just like,

1:22:37

with any stranger, you can practice these

1:22:39

skills and just become a better conversationalist.

1:22:43

Yeah. And like, what do you what do

1:22:45

you think, though, on TikTok or Instagram, I see

1:22:47

all these guys who go up to people and

1:22:49

say, Hey, how much rent do you pay? And

1:22:52

they say, Oh, 15,000

1:22:54

a month in New York City, can I get a tour

1:22:56

of your apartment? And they

1:22:59

give the tour and like, so what do you think of that

1:23:01

style where it's like one, there's one

1:23:03

question and then the they ask

1:23:05

everybody and then the interview is around that. I

1:23:08

kind of like that. Is it because it has an

1:23:10

angle. So you know, it's kind of like hot ones.

1:23:13

The angle is I'm going to ask you these random

1:23:15

questions while you eat spicy food. It's

1:23:17

the same. It's like it has a slight point of

1:23:19

view. So you know exactly what you're getting. But

1:23:22

then it can go anywhere. Yeah. And

1:23:24

there's this voyeurism aspect. Yeah. So

1:23:27

it's like, can you show

1:23:29

me intimacy? It's

1:23:31

like the most intimate thing you can show somebody

1:23:34

is your home. Right. And

1:23:36

the guy that the main guy I'm thinking of who

1:23:38

does this, and maybe there's more than one, but the main guy

1:23:40

I'm thinking who I always see who does this, he always says,

1:23:42

can I sit in your bed? Oh my

1:23:44

God, I have not seen that. Yeah.

1:23:46

And it's usually like some really beautiful woman

1:23:49

who he goes up to and says,

1:23:51

Hey, how much do you like? It usually

1:23:53

starts there. He's getting every voyeuristic aspect and

1:23:55

you kind of are left wondering, Like,

1:23:58

is he going to have sex with this girl? Like. My

1:24:00

guy, it's the kind of interview sort

1:24:02

of. His. Direction That

1:24:04

directions. For I finally the Or

1:24:06

or was ordered the what do you do for a

1:24:08

living guy like I like that guy to. Yeah,

1:24:11

yeah, no way that that's the their

1:24:13

challenger. They're trying to decide quickly, build

1:24:15

intimacy with someone in a way that's

1:24:17

like can I do a house? How

1:24:19

much money do make would you do

1:24:21

for Allah like all the things that

1:24:23

people think make them who they are.

1:24:26

And I guess it is also the. Consistency.

1:24:29

Thing like if you answer like obviously

1:24:31

we don't see all the rejections these

1:24:33

people do They only yeah, so was

1:24:35

the instagram rio's of of the people

1:24:37

who answer but as if you're already

1:24:39

answering. What? Do you do for

1:24:41

a living? Or how much money you

1:24:44

make or or what's your rent? you've

1:24:46

already. Gas said something so

1:24:48

personal that now it's to begin. it's wide

1:24:50

open to for the guy to ask anything.

1:24:53

Yeah. Browsing those people probably have pre interviewed

1:24:55

these people to get their i don't

1:24:57

think anybody that oh he softened to

1:24:59

be on the block where my apartment

1:25:01

as let's go check it out. a.

1:25:04

I wonder for if we just happen or

1:25:06

if like nine times out of ten he

1:25:08

gets nothing and then maybe once I'm out

1:25:10

of one hundred, maybe he he gets lucky

1:25:13

and the person pays two hundred thousand a

1:25:15

month address and we can see their apartments.

1:25:17

Uses has of on. Yeah

1:25:19

thousand good idea Jay has was that he doesn't

1:25:22

look as a guy on on a cigarettes because

1:25:24

it's a little bit like what I used to

1:25:26

do at. This. This three am I

1:25:28

the I used to do for for H B O in

1:25:30

the nineties which is. In. A while you out

1:25:32

of three in the morning. It was that kind of

1:25:34

concepts. I

1:25:37

always think I did. The first part has

1:25:39

has wow put it on the internet These

1:25:41

interviews that I'd that says he was given

1:25:43

from isn't to do so. That's.

1:25:46

Cool, but polina promptly

1:25:48

auto. Thing. To do such

1:25:50

a great newsletter. The Profile: I

1:25:52

love all of your newsletter of.

1:25:55

Every episode Edison that comes

1:25:57

out. Of always a reader. You know you.

1:26:00

Whatever is one reader, were just me as a.

1:26:03

And you also wrote the book

1:26:05

hidden Genius about some of your

1:26:07

more interesting profiles and always great

1:26:09

to have you on the podcast.

1:26:11

Like you said, wasn't gradually out

1:26:13

of your to say congratulations on

1:26:15

on second Babies as a thank.

1:26:17

You so at a London on these

1:26:19

days? Ago like how many how many others

1:26:21

as you put out a week. And.

1:26:24

Of One. And

1:26:26

one every Sunday and and sometimes one every

1:26:28

one said. Okay, I have.

1:26:31

I've I've I've seen more than one week from you.

1:26:33

And and are you gonna keep like this is?

1:26:35

is it Now for Life I Target I just

1:26:37

do this newsletter for Lives are making money and

1:26:39

them. It's all that. Well I just

1:26:42

as I really love the news that

1:26:44

I have no reason to not do

1:26:46

it. but A I really enjoyed Have

1:26:48

done it for the last seven years.

1:26:50

everything a week but now my goal

1:26:52

is to do more interviews cells anybody

1:26:54

listening. Ah. Needs to

1:26:56

eat out. Moderating helper is a whole

1:26:58

thing. Something where they need an interviewer

1:27:00

loving. Very. Good call

1:27:02

to action their status as they

1:27:04

supposedly they again thank you cause.

1:27:07

Of think is a lit.