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The past two decades I have loved

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1:59

Mod, Gloria, Archie

2:02

Bunker's Place, and on and on. It was done

2:04

by Norman Lear, who was 100 years old. But

2:07

on this podcast today, we have Sally

2:09

Struthers, who played Gloria

2:11

in All in the Family and Gloria in

2:13

the TV show Gloria.

2:15

And we also have Alan Piper,

2:18

who wrote and directed the

2:20

horror film Evil Sublet,

2:23

soon to be in theaters and homes

2:25

everywhere, who just won Best Feature Film

2:27

at the Coney Island Film Festival, Evil

2:29

Sublet. And Alan Piper also

2:32

was involved in various presidential elections.

2:34

So I asked him some questions about that.

2:36

He was on the rapid response team for Hillary Clinton. I

2:38

asked him, what did Hillary do wrong in 2016?

2:41

And Sally Struthers had some interesting

2:43

things to say about Norman Lear

2:45

and her career and what

2:47

the most depressing point in her career was and

2:49

how she came back from it was very beautiful.

2:52

So here's Sally Struthers

2:54

and Alan Piper about their new film

2:57

Evil Sublet.

3:01

This isn't your average business podcast,

3:04

and he's not your average host. This

3:06

is the James Altager Show.

3:17

Thank you guys for coming on the podcast, Sally.

3:20

It's an honor. I've been a huge fan since

3:22

I've been a kid. I saw

3:25

probably every episode of All in the Family. Alan,

3:28

I've been researching you as part of the research

3:31

for Evil Sublet and

3:33

this podcast. How are you two doing? Oh,

3:36

it's a great day here in New York. We

3:38

miss you in New York. Well, I

3:41

do miss New York, actually. My daughters live there. My

3:43

family lives there. New York City is a

3:45

very special place. You have daughters?

3:48

I have two daughters. Yeah, they're both living

3:50

in Brooklyn. Where in Brooklyn and how old

3:52

are they? Twenty and twenty-four, and

3:54

they kind of live in, I

3:56

don't know, one of the new

3:58

Williamsburg-ish.

4:00

hip areas. They're trying to be hip,

4:03

but they love it. They love New York City

4:05

and they love working there and

4:08

I lived there for 30 years. So, you

4:10

know, I miss it and I miss them when I'm not around them.

4:13

I'm sure.

4:14

Congratulations, by the way, Evil Sublet, winning

4:16

Best Feature Film at the Coney Island Film Festival.

4:18

How did that feel? That

4:21

felt wonderful. It was very

4:23

important to us that we screen at the Coney

4:25

Island Film Festival. This movie

4:27

is a very New York-y

4:30

film and that's something that I'm very

4:32

proud of. I think even though

4:34

New York is such an important media capital,

4:36

New York is really not well

4:39

represented in media. Most films

4:42

and TV shows that are set in New York are

4:44

actually filmed somewhere else and

4:46

I wanted to make a

4:48

movie that really captured New York

4:50

and we did it at a time

4:53

that was obviously one

4:55

of the most painful times in New York's history because we

4:57

were all set to shoot the whole movie in

4:59

March and April of 2020. Sally

5:03

had her ticket

5:05

booked to come out for her scenes

5:07

and of course we had

5:09

to put everything on hold and at

5:12

a time when some people were giving

5:14

up on New York, I really got to see

5:16

New Yorkers pulling together and

5:19

I particularly saw that in Coney Island. We

5:21

were invited to film in Dino's

5:24

Wonder Wheel Park

5:25

before things

5:27

got shut down and in 2020 Dino's Wonder

5:30

Wheel Park was going to be celebrating

5:32

the 100th anniversary of the

5:34

Wonder Wheel and of

5:37

course it was shut down for the whole

5:39

season and instead of using

5:41

their 3D printer to make the celebratory

5:44

items that they were going to make, they made face shields

5:46

that they distributed to the

5:49

hospitals in the area. Coney Island was one

5:51

of the neighborhoods that was hardest hit both

5:54

in terms of the death toll and financially

5:57

and Dino's Wonder Wheel amusement

5:59

park.

5:59

and the various businesses in Coney

6:02

Island and Coney Island USA really

6:04

played an active role in supporting

6:07

the community.

6:08

So we had the opportunity to

6:10

show at a festival that there was saying

6:12

that they would,

6:14

you know, that they'd be able to get much more press

6:16

for us. But they said, but you have to, you can't

6:18

show anywhere else first. And there was no way

6:21

we were not going to show this, this

6:23

movie in the beautiful

6:26

mythical playground that is Coney Island.

6:29

And so I'm, I'm just absolutely thrilled

6:31

that we premiered the movie there and that it won

6:33

best feature. So, so when did you shoot

6:35

it? If you couldn't shoot it in 2020?

6:37

So we came up with some creative

6:40

solutions. The movie stars

6:43

my wife, Jennifer Lee Houston.

6:45

It is amazing. She's amazing.

6:47

She's amazing. She's amazing. She

6:49

should be on this podcast, not me. I

6:52

have a teeny tiny cameo in

6:54

this darling film, but Alan's

6:56

wife, Jennifer Lee Houston, carries

6:58

the whole film on her back brilliantly. She's

7:01

everything. And then some,

7:03

go ahead. I'm sorry, Alan. Well, we, we

7:05

figured out some ways to shoot with just her in

7:07

our actually haunted apartment during quarantine.

7:10

And SAG said, well, you know, that's okay.

7:12

You're, you're locked up in there anyway. So that's

7:15

fine.

7:16

And then we filmed the rest of the movie

7:18

in 2021 under

7:21

SAG's COVID safety protocols.

7:23

And I'm very proud

7:24

that there were no, we

7:27

ran a very careful set and there were

7:29

no infections on the set. And

7:31

I was, that's one of the reminders

7:34

of what's great about having a good union is that

7:36

SAG provided excellent details

7:39

about steps that we could take to ensure that

7:41

everyone was safe. And so I was glad to

7:44

be able to do that. And how did

7:46

you two meet

7:46

Alan and his wife, Jen and

7:48

I, it's your dear friends. They

7:51

had a party. You were there. Who

7:53

was that?

7:54

Pat Dwyer and Stephen Mosher,

7:56

who play some of the leading roles in this movie,

7:59

had a party. And Sally was

8:01

there and we became friends

8:03

and then had the amazingly

8:06

good fortune of being

8:08

able to coax her into playing

8:11

a key role in this film.

8:13

I worked with a wonderful actress,

8:16

Leslie Alexander, in a musical called

8:18

Nice Work That You Can Get It, about, I

8:20

don't know, six years ago in

8:22

Ogunquit, Maine. And we've remained

8:24

friends ever since. And I was visiting

8:27

New York and I was sleeping on her fold

8:29

out sofa in her living room. And she said, why

8:31

didn't you come to a party with me tonight? And

8:33

she told me about the two guys whose place it

8:36

was. And I don't even know how

8:38

she knows them. But she said, it's

8:41

not gonna be crowded, but there's gonna be some really interesting

8:43

people there. My good friends, Alan Piper

8:45

and his wife, Jen Houston will be there. And I

8:47

think you'll really like them.

8:50

We became from that night forward,

8:52

close, tight, wonderful friends. Jen

8:55

and Alan are both so multi-talented

8:57

in so many arenas that they just blow

9:00

my mind. Cause I only do one

9:02

thing

9:03

and that's perform. And I

9:05

can't do anything else. I don't even know how to type.

9:08

Jen runs a baking company and,

9:11

well, she doesn't marry to things. Alan will tell you

9:13

all she does. And Alan is on television,

9:16

reporting the news, as well as writing,

9:19

filming, directing and editing a movie.

9:21

I mean, there's nothing Alan can't do. And it

9:23

comes from a very creative mother who

9:25

lives in Boston, who is an incredible

9:29

portrait artist. And I don't

9:31

know, there's just art all around. I'm just tagging

9:34

along for the ride.

9:35

And the movie is about, it's called Evil

9:37

Sublet. It's about

9:39

basically a sublet. It was even

9:41

apparently advertised as evil.

9:43

And the main character feels

9:45

like, oh, that's bus stand for East Village.

9:48

And there's all sorts of horrible

9:50

and horrific things that happen in this

9:52

apartment. What makes, cause

9:55

I have no idea, what makes a good horror

9:57

story slash movie?

9:59

Like, how do you... people who are kind of immune

10:01

to being scared. They've seen everything. They've seen every horror

10:03

movie. Well, I think

10:06

for me,

10:08

what always makes a horror

10:10

movie work is the personal,

10:12

relatable aspect. Ours

10:14

is a horror comedy. There

10:17

are

10:18

gross, shocking moments that people

10:20

who are looking for that will enjoy,

10:22

but there is also a lot of laughs.

10:25

But I think a lot of people,

10:27

we have an

10:30

affordable housing crisis in America, especially

10:32

in New York. I think a lot of people can relate to

10:34

the idea that people

10:36

are willing to

10:38

put up with a lot of strange things

10:40

in order to get an affordable apartment.

10:43

And certainly in New York, that

10:45

is the case. Yeah. So this apartment,

10:48

correct me if I'm wrong, it's the apartment

10:51

in the movie is a three bedroom apartment

10:53

for $2,000 a month, which in New York

10:55

City, just in case nobody realizes this

10:57

outside of New York, that's impossible.

10:59

I don't think you would ever see that right

11:01

now in New York City, a three bedroom apartment

11:03

for $2,000 a month. So as one

11:06

of the characters says,

11:07

being shown through the apartment,

11:09

what's wrong with it? Because it's

11:11

too good to be true. And our

11:13

actual apartment, which I wish

11:16

it actually were that cheap, but it is

11:18

still, we get this apartment

11:20

for, I think a lot less than a lot of New

11:22

Yorkers would expect to. And part of it is because weird

11:25

things really do happen here.

11:27

I

11:27

tend to, you know, I'm,

11:30

I try

11:30

to be a scientifically minded

11:33

person. So I don't say, Oh, it's ghosts,

11:36

but I will say very strange things happen

11:38

here. My wife has felt a cold

11:40

hand grab her in the night. She's

11:43

heard voices. And then

11:45

you ran away really quickly. So she didn't see it was you. You

11:48

it was not me.

11:50

Uh, and we've had some of the strange

11:52

things that have happened. We actually managed to catch on

11:54

camera and edit into the movie.

11:57

Like what?

11:58

So a lot of the things that

11:59

movie are recreations of things

12:02

that really happen here. So there's a moment

12:04

when an object fell off a shelf on

12:06

its own, which happens a lot

12:08

and there are all sorts of reasons

12:10

why that could happen. Maybe a subway is passing underneath.

12:13

I don't know.

12:14

But so we did this scene where,

12:16

uh,

12:17

my wife's character comes in. She finds

12:19

an object. She finds a picture

12:22

frame that has fallen off a shelf. It has shattered

12:24

on the ground and it's just lying there. And

12:26

it wasn't until I was actually

12:28

editing the scene that I saw

12:31

that while she wasn't looking at it,

12:33

it, and we placed

12:35

it there. It hadn't actually fallen. We've placed

12:38

it on the floor, just nice and solidly on

12:40

the floor. And it just started

12:43

moving for no reason that I can, that

12:45

I can particularly explain. So,

12:48

so that was one instance of something I didn't

12:51

even know we captured that until I was editing

12:53

the scene. Again, I'm not, I'm not, you

12:55

know, I'm not a paranormal expert.

12:57

I'm not going to say it was a ghost moving it, but

12:59

I will say I have no idea why

13:02

it was moving.

13:02

Now all this, this building that

13:04

you and Jen live in, it was built

13:06

in 1851. Wow.

13:08

They're bound to be paranormal activity.

13:11

Can you imagine all the people that probably

13:13

passed away in there had terrible fights,

13:16

maybe somebody was even murdered.

13:18

Yeah. I mean, that's pretty

13:20

old, even for New York city. Like where, where do

13:23

you live? Like the East village

13:25

in the East village in the evil. Yes. The

13:27

East village.

13:28

I like, what was around in the East village in 1850? Cause

13:31

like Tribeca was the area where a lot of people

13:33

lived in the early 1800s. And they worked

13:35

in sort of the wall street area, but Tribeca

13:38

was, was where they lived and

13:40

then places like the upper West side were considered

13:42

almost like suburbs. Yeah.

13:44

This, this neighborhood has,

13:47

has gone through so many iterations

13:50

over time. It was a, it was

13:51

a German neighborhood at one point.

13:54

It is, it is often, it's often

13:57

taken on an ethnic

13:59

immigrant. identity and at different

14:01

points in history that's different

14:04

identities, whether it's a German neighborhood,

14:06

an Irish neighborhood, a Jewish neighborhood.

14:09

It is still large parts of this neighborhood

14:12

are Ukrainian

14:14

families live here, but

14:16

it is increasingly becoming,

14:18

it's increasingly

14:20

shifting and it always shifts and that's the nature

14:22

of New York.

14:23

I mean, Sally, you're very familiar with New York,

14:26

all in the family, the

14:27

show you're in for an

14:30

infinite number of years it seems was

14:32

shot in Astoria or at least. No,

14:34

just the outside of the house was shot for

14:37

the opening credits. We made all in the family at

14:39

the CBS studios in Los

14:41

Angeles. Okay,

14:42

but the house

14:45

that Archie Bunker and you live in is

14:47

set in Astoria. Yes, apparently.

14:50

In Queens, in New York. I've never seen it, but I've

14:52

certainly seen that opening credit thousands

14:55

of times. Yeah. You know, I'm

14:57

a West Coast gal. I was born and raised

14:59

in Portland, Oregon,

15:00

and then came down to California to go to college

15:03

and have been here since, but in the last 30

15:05

years, I've barely been here. I'm a homeowner,

15:07

but I call it my vacation home because I

15:10

only see it about seven, eight weeks a year. I'm

15:12

always on the road, not traveling,

15:14

but I mean, away from home, living out of a suitcase,

15:17

doing a play or a musical and every once in a

15:19

while a tour.

15:20

So, but when I'm in New York

15:22

and I ask somebody where

15:25

something is, they laugh at me because

15:27

they think I'm being funny. They

15:29

think I'm a New Yorker. They think I either made all

15:31

in the family there

15:33

or that I live there

15:35

and neither is true. And so

15:38

I really don't know where things are in

15:40

New York City and the surrounding areas that

15:42

I'm always lost.

15:44

And people don't seem to understand

15:46

that. Well, I guess because, I mean,

15:49

they shouldn't understand that because it's,

15:52

we buy into the mythology of television

15:54

and movies that we're

15:56

watching these things because we relate

15:58

so much and we feel in our brain.

15:59

like these are really occurring. I'm really watching

16:02

this

16:03

family argue about

16:05

racial issues and social issues and

16:08

with this, Carol O'Connor who plays

16:10

Archie Bunker as such this New York accent

16:13

and

16:14

it feels very real.

16:17

I grew up on all the family and all the

16:19

spin-offs, the Jeffersons and

16:21

so on. Archie Bunker plays Gloria.

16:24

You play Gloria.

16:26

Good Times.

16:29

Was Good Times a spin-off of All

16:31

in the Family? No, but Norman

16:33

Lear was grinding these out right and left all

16:35

at the same time. And so I'm just

16:37

curious,

16:38

I feel like there aren't shows anymore

16:41

like Good Times and All in the Family. Good Times

16:43

really felt the grittiness,

16:45

that part of New York City and

16:48

that family and you just don't, everything

16:50

feels so fake now compared to shows

16:52

like that.

16:53

I don't know, James.

16:57

You know, just like fashion, humor

17:00

and filmmaking

17:02

and everything morphs. For

17:05

a couple of years, men wear wider ties

17:08

and their lapels are wider on their suits or

17:10

they're narrower and their shirt styles are

17:12

different and then, you know, seven years

17:14

later that's all out and a new look is

17:16

in and the same with women's hemlines. They're

17:18

above your knee, they're at your knee, they're below your knee,

17:21

they're mini, they're maxi.

17:25

Entertainment morphs too and you never

17:27

know, you know,

17:28

what's coming down the pike but All

17:31

in the Family took quite a while to get on the

17:33

air. It was made first two years in a row a

17:35

pilot by ABC and each year they

17:37

were too nervous to put it on the air

17:39

and just shelved that pilot, you

17:41

know, in a back closet and then they

17:44

would take it out and dust it off and say, no, we can't

17:46

put this on. And it was the new president of CBS that

17:48

finally eventually put it on the air. So by

17:51

the time that happened, Rob Reiner

17:53

and I were the third set of kids.

17:55

There had been two mics and two glories before

17:57

us.

17:58

Oh really? And I heard I heard you

18:01

were

18:02

nervous maybe is the wrong word, but

18:04

I heard you thought maybe Penny Marshall was gonna be cast

18:06

as- Well,

18:07

she was one of the four girls,

18:09

I'll say girls, young women, though it was narrowed

18:11

down to third time around. Rob

18:13

Reiner had already been cast as Mike Stivik,

18:16

Archie's son-in-law, and Carol O'Connor

18:18

and Gene Stapleton came part in parcel with

18:20

the project. They were there from day one.

18:23

So it was always Carol and Gene playing

18:25

Archie needed. So when I

18:27

went in to meet Norman Lear, and then

18:29

he narrowed that group, I don't know how many

18:32

young women he saw, 100, 200,

18:34

and it was narrowed down to four to do the final

18:36

audition. One of the four was Penny

18:38

Marshall. And I knew Rob,

18:41

and I knew Penny, and I

18:43

thought sitting in the outer office, well, the

18:46

final audition is to go into that room over

18:48

there and do improvisations with

18:51

Rob Reiner in front of all these CBS executives,

18:54

and Norman Lear and his partner, Bud Jorkin,

18:56

and

18:56

Rob's obviously gonna do better with Penny,

18:59

either intentionally or unintentionally,

19:01

because they live together and he's gonna marry her. And

19:03

they

19:03

have that rhythm going and that knowledge

19:06

of each other, finishing each other's sentences.

19:09

So I don't stand a chance. So

19:11

it says I don't stand a chance. There's

19:14

no reason to get nervous.

19:15

So I'll just go in there and do what they asked me to do and leave,

19:18

well, I'm not getting this.

19:20

And you know the end of that story. No,

19:22

well, actually I don't, because what happened in

19:24

the audition, like- Well, I guess it

19:26

went fine, I got a phone call that I got

19:29

it and we were making them. And we had eight in

19:31

the can before everyone on the air.

19:33

It aired in January of 71.

19:35

In those following weeks, it quickly

19:37

rose to number one on television and we were

19:40

all in shock and awe

19:42

and feeling our oats and trying to get adjusted

19:45

to being on such a popular show.

19:47

And I went on a break on camera

19:49

blocking day over to Norman

19:51

Lear, who was standing at the sidelines watching

19:53

down on the soundstage. And

19:56

I said, Norman, remember a couple

19:59

of months back when- when you

20:01

were still auditioning and there were four of us left

20:03

to buy for the part of Gloria and

20:05

I said Was

20:07

I really the funniest one that

20:10

I get more laughs in that room than the other

20:12

three gals

20:13

and he said no I

20:15

Just I sat down with the writers

20:17

and we decided if the show has Goes

20:19

on the air and stays on the air and has any longevity.

20:22

What are we going to get more?

20:24

storylines out of and

20:26

great

20:27

moments Having Gloria be her

20:29

mama's girl or having her be a daddy's

20:31

girl And we decided since Archie

20:33

bunker was so controversial and there

20:35

would be people who

20:37

didn't Appreciate his bigotry

20:40

and his uneducated views We

20:42

had to soften him up and the best way to soften him

20:44

up would have his daughter be his soft spot

20:47

So we hired you because just like Carol O'Connor

20:49

you have blue eyes and a fat face.

20:51

He didn't say that he said that oh he

20:54

did I

20:55

Swear on any Bible that's

20:57

in my house.

20:58

He did say that to me

21:00

He said that about my face to my face

21:03

and I just

21:04

Faded away into the background licking my wounds

21:07

and you know, Norman Lear has such an inspiration

21:10

for the whole medium of television

21:12

like he basically created

21:15

The whole 70s of television him and maybe

21:17

a handful of others But

21:19

what do you learn from him in terms of telling a story?

21:22

Like what was what was what

21:24

was his turning this out? You

21:26

know what James? I'd rather talk about anything

21:29

else and mostly evil sublet because

21:31

I'm not a fan of Norman Lear's and we can end

21:33

that subject Right there.

21:35

Can you say why you're not a fan? I've

21:37

got a lot of reasons

21:52

So I got this package

21:55

and I open it up and the only thing

21:57

in it is dove

22:00

Men Plus Care, anti-perspirant. And

22:03

I'm like, why did I get this? The

22:05

package was handwritten to me. It wasn't like a printed

22:07

label or anything. It sounds personal.

22:10

Yeah, I thought maybe it was like somebody, like maybe I

22:12

played in a chess tournament and my opponent

22:14

thought I smelled, but they were doing it anonymously

22:16

because they didn't want me to know who sent it to them. And

22:18

then finally, I'm like searching

22:21

in my emails, like who could have

22:23

done this? And I saw that you mentioned

22:26

that this is a new sponsor for the podcast, Dove,

22:28

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22:31

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I'll bring up like

22:50

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22:52

And in a chess tournament, you're sitting right around people

22:54

who can smell you. So you want to smell good.

22:57

That could affect how I play. So it's

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really important.

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23:02

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23:05

I use Dove. That is my

23:07

anti-perspirant of choice.

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24:32

What was it like for you filming a horror

24:34

film? I mean, I heard that you get

24:36

scared in horror films. So did you get scared while filming

24:39

this?

24:39

I did not get scared

24:41

at all because I was with people that I

24:43

love and my scenes were not scary

24:45

except for the very last scene I'm in, which is

24:48

about

24:49

less than a minute long. And that's

24:51

kind of how the film ends.

24:54

But

24:54

the other two scenes, my character

24:57

is living in a storage unit. And

25:00

they're not scary scenes. They're mostly

25:03

exposition. And then

25:05

the second big scene in the

25:08

storage

25:08

unit is a big reveal about

25:11

my character and why these people are living in

25:13

an evil sublet. And it

25:15

was fast and furious because when you're on

25:18

a limited budget, there's no time to do 17 takes

25:20

and

25:21

refine the moments. You've got to trust your

25:23

actors. And Alan was directing

25:26

and we were in a storage

25:28

unit way, way out of the city somewhere

25:31

and

25:31

going as fast as we could to get these

25:33

two scenes done. And there was an

25:35

anything scary happening in the scenes.

25:39

And Alan sent the

25:42

film to my nephew

25:44

to show to me. And

25:47

I watched it on my phone. I've never watched

25:49

anything on my phone. I

25:52

am not good with buttons. My nephew

25:54

was just here a few minutes ago and

25:56

got me set up on this Zoom telephone

25:59

call because I.

25:59

I don't know how to do anything.

26:02

I don't type, I don't wear clothes

26:04

with buttons, buttons throw

26:06

me off. So I thought, how

26:09

am I gonna watch this? It's so small

26:11

and I'm so spoiled with a big TV screen

26:13

and going to a movie house and seeing

26:15

everything so large. And I

26:17

was entranced, I was intrigued,

26:20

I couldn't put my phone down.

26:22

And

26:23

when it was over, I

26:24

was thrilled that I got to

26:26

be in this movie because when you are

26:29

a septuagenarian

26:31

and you look back at your career and you say, is

26:33

there anything I could have done better? Is there anything

26:35

I haven't done that I would really like to do?

26:38

Being in a horror film like

26:40

Jamie Lee Curtis

26:42

was on my list.

26:44

I will just say, well, first of all, the

26:47

scariest moment for me on

26:49

this whole project was when

26:52

I had sent the video to Sally because

26:54

I have such

26:56

admiration, such deep

26:58

admiration for Sally. And

27:01

my goal was to try to make

27:04

a movie that would be worthy of

27:06

her involvement. And honestly, the

27:08

fact that she likes it matters more

27:10

to me than anything else that

27:13

has happened with this movie or that

27:15

will happen. Well, Alan, was it hard

27:17

directing Sally? Like knowing, I mean, she's this

27:20

icon of TV history.

27:23

Well, and I'll tell you that is something

27:24

else. I was, I was hard to work with, Alan,

27:27

you can tell him. You were not.

27:29

It is, now I've had the good fortune

27:32

of working with some very high profile

27:34

people. I worked on President

27:36

Obama's campaign video team

27:39

on his reelection campaign. I

27:41

worked on the Hillary Clinton campaign

27:44

and I was the senior politics

27:46

producer for now this for four years, which

27:49

led me to interview everyone who

27:53

was, everyone, everyone actually

27:55

accept the incumbent who was running for president

27:58

in 2020.

28:01

I don't get starstruck so much

28:03

around important people, but

28:05

this was the first time I was directing

28:08

someone like Sally in a scripted

28:10

scene that I had written.

28:13

I think everyone on set,

28:15

it was the first day back

28:17

after having put the whole film on

28:20

hold for over a year because of

28:22

COVID-19.

28:23

And I think all of us were nervous

28:25

just to be in a room with other people

28:28

again. And to have that first day

28:30

be with

28:31

an absolute

28:33

icon of the American

28:35

screen, I think a lot of

28:37

us felt very intimidated going into

28:39

that day. Sally was just

28:42

such a joy

28:44

to work with and put everyone at

28:46

so much ease immediately

28:49

that I

28:52

think in some ways the positive

28:54

attitude that Sally engendered on that

28:56

first day of returning to

28:59

shooting post quarantine

29:02

really set

29:03

the mood for the entire rest

29:06

of shooting the movie. And I think it

29:08

really did carry over into keeping

29:10

a positive and happy

29:12

set

29:13

throughout the whole process. Well, you talk about

29:15

me like you and Jennifer Lee Houston,

29:18

your wife are ogres, and that I

29:20

came in like little Miss Mary Sunshine with a

29:22

straw hat and gloves and made everybody

29:24

sing getting to know you. Now

29:27

you set the mood

29:29

on the set. You're highly intelligent,

29:32

so you kind of scare me.

29:33

And you know a lot about

29:35

a lot, which makes me feel small, but

29:39

you don't pontificate like my dead

29:42

ex-husband. And I like

29:44

saying my dead ex-husband, is that evil? That

29:48

is a little evil, but we'll forgive you. You're

29:52

just a joy and a pleasure, and you're enthusiastic

29:55

like a 14 year old boy. And then

29:57

let's talk about your wife. She is hilarious.

29:59

and she is sarcastic and I

30:02

love really intelligent sarcasm.

30:04

And she is a high

30:07

energy gal. I try to keep up with her when

30:09

I'm around her, but I'm old enough to be her mother, so

30:11

it's not easy.

30:12

So you guys set the tone on this, dad.

30:14

I just walked in and I think

30:17

my one contribution to, speaking

30:19

of the set, which was a storage unit

30:22

in a storage facility,

30:24

was that I did say to you, Alan,

30:26

because I'm a very literal human being, I

30:29

said, if I live in here, I

30:31

think that we need a bucket

30:34

and a roll of toilet paper in the background

30:36

to show that I really live

30:39

in here, because right now there's a chair

30:41

and there's a lamp and there's some boxes, but

30:44

you've got to, human beings go to the

30:46

bathroom. Sure enough, that

30:48

fucking toilet paper's in the

30:50

scene too. And then, and the

30:52

shot of it got a big laugh in Coney

30:54

Island. You know, that's a really good point. Like Alan,

30:57

why didn't you think that where she wears this

30:59

person who lives in a storage unit gonna go to the

31:02

bathroom? Well, I'm glad

31:04

that Sally thought of it. It, yeah.

31:06

I always wondered like in Star Trek, where everybody went

31:08

to the bathroom, because it didn't seem like anybody

31:11

needed to go to the bathroom in the 23rd century.

31:14

Yeah, and it doesn't seem like those outfits lend

31:16

themselves to getting in

31:18

and out of for that purpose. I think they're

31:20

all catheterized. Maybe,

31:23

yeah, I always wondered about that. But,

31:26

you know, Alan, were you a fan of the horror genre

31:28

before you wrote this?

31:29

Yes, yes, very much. And I

31:32

feel like we're at a moment of increasing

31:34

love for horror, and I think that

31:36

often happens historically at moments

31:38

of great social turmoil, that

31:41

when we are processing real

31:44

life horror, that is

31:46

often too hard to face, having a facsimile

31:50

of horror, I think makes it,

31:52

makes it easier to deal with. Very

31:55

much watching horror movies became my

31:57

comfort place during 2020.

31:59

And I think that's probably true for a lot of

32:02

other people. What else you should know about

32:04

Alan and I found out? So a couple of years ago,

32:07

I searched around and was able for his birthday

32:09

to find a couple of things for him that luckily he

32:11

didn't have because he collects things

32:13

from Coney Island from way,

32:16

way back.

32:17

And they've got wonderful things all over

32:19

their apartment in New York that are

32:21

Coney Island. And

32:23

so obviously, that doesn't surprise

32:25

me that when he wrote this film, Coney Island

32:28

was part of the setting of the film.

32:30

I could think of only one other movie that is known

32:32

for being set in Coney Island, which is

32:35

the Woody Allen movie I'm

32:37

forgetting now. Wonder Wheel. Yeah,

32:39

Wonder Wheel. OK. And what's the one

32:42

where the roller coaster is going through

32:45

his house when he's growing up? Oh, Annie Hall. Annie

32:47

Hall. Yes. And that was the,

32:49

I believe that was the original Thunderbolt,

32:51

which isn't there anymore.

32:54

But there are

32:57

a lot of great Coney Island

32:59

movies. And so I'm just honored

33:02

to add our list, to add our

33:04

film to

33:06

the list of Coney Island

33:08

movies. James Allen

33:10

turned his camera toward the crowd that

33:12

was there for

33:13

the Coney Island Film Festival

33:16

right after this group in this

33:18

room had all watched the film. And

33:20

he had them all yell and say

33:22

hi to me, which meant an awful lot.

33:25

But there was a person there

33:27

that made

33:28

an interesting comment to him, which Allen

33:30

shared with me. And Allen shared with me the fellow's

33:33

name. And of course, Allen being an

33:35

expert on all things Coney Island

33:37

knew who this guy was, was thrilled he was

33:40

there. And I had to look him up

33:42

on my phone, which took me an hour and a half because I

33:44

don't do buttons. His name

33:47

is what, Allen?

33:48

Zamora the Torture King.

33:51

So I

33:54

love film festivals and the world has great film festivals.

33:56

I really do think the Coney Island Film Festival is

33:58

the coolest festival in the world.

33:59

world because it's the only one where

34:02

you can see these great movies and

34:04

then walk outside and ride a ride

34:07

or see a sideshow performer.

34:09

So one of the movies at the Coney Island

34:12

Film Festival, the Opening Night movie, was a

34:14

documentary about the

34:16

Jim Rose Circus in which Zamora

34:19

the Torture King was a performer and Zamora the

34:21

Torture King was present at the

34:23

festival

34:24

on the opening night as part of the opening night

34:26

festivities. He took a sharp

34:29

metal wire and drove it into

34:31

his mouth and out through the bottom

34:33

of his chin

34:34

because really in the tradition of Houdini

34:37

he is a mind over physical

34:39

matter genius. Anyway I didn't realize

34:41

he was in the audience for Evil Sublet but

34:44

afterwards he said that it was very

34:46

very strange in a good way and

34:48

coming from that performer that

34:51

was a comment that

34:54

really warmed my heart. How do you do that? How

34:57

do you put like a blade through your mouth and out your chin?

34:59

Is there like an area where there's

35:01

less flesh and less

35:03

nerves? You know you would

35:05

have to talk to him about the process

35:07

of doing it and that would

35:09

be a great episode. This

35:12

is what I want to know

35:13

Alan. I want

35:15

to know did

35:16

he walk up to you and

35:18

you immediately knew who he was by

35:21

looking at him or he said to you, you

35:23

know, hello Alan. I'm

35:26

Zamora the torture king.

35:28

Well I

35:30

knew who he was because he's famous and I also knew

35:32

who he was. If I had not already known

35:35

who he was I had seen

35:37

the documentary the night before. So

35:40

I did know who he was

35:43

but yes I was very happy to hear what he

35:45

had to say.

35:55

Thank you.

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37:04

And so, Alan, I'm just curious. You worked on the Obama

37:06

campaign. You worked on several campaigns.

37:08

I was reading that in 2016, you earned

37:11

Hillary Clinton's rapid response team.

37:13

I know this is not about evil

37:15

sublet, but I'm just curious from your perspective,

37:18

what do you think went wrong? Like, in the summer

37:20

of 2016, Hillary Clinton was winning.

37:23

She had a very visual imagery like,

37:25

do you want Trump's hands on the red

37:27

button?

37:28

And then

37:29

what went wrong after that, do you think?

37:31

All right. Well, everyone has a theory. And

37:34

I'll tell you that in a presidential

37:36

race that comes down to just under 80,000 votes,

37:41

everyone's theory is correct.

37:42

Because that is such a small number

37:45

of votes that anything,

37:47

any one difference, if you want to

37:49

say, you know, if you want to say, oh,

37:52

it was the Comey letter. Yes, absolutely.

37:54

That was enough to swing 80,000 votes. Was

37:57

it sexism? Absolutely sexism

37:59

played a role.

37:59

role. That's enough to swing 80,000 votes.

38:02

Was it not enough time

38:05

spent in a given swing state? You could second

38:07

guess a million things. I think

38:09

any one person who worked on that campaign,

38:12

I made videos that were seen by millions

38:14

of people. If the videos I made were seen

38:17

by millions and the vote came down to 80,000, is

38:19

there something I could have done better that could have been

38:21

the different for 80,000 votes?

38:23

This gets to actually a problem that

38:26

there's increasing interest in, which is trying

38:29

to reform the electoral college. We are

38:31

having ever more close

38:33

elections

38:34

decided by a narrower margin

38:37

where the actual election isn't very close.

38:39

Hillary Clinton won the popular

38:42

vote by more than 3 million votes.

38:44

The margin of victory, thanks

38:46

to the electoral college for Joe

38:49

Biden, was also very narrow.

38:51

It was, I believe, an even narrower margin

38:53

of victory. And yet it was an even

38:56

wider margin of victory

38:58

in terms of the popular vote.

39:01

The problem is that the way the

39:03

electoral college creates a system now

39:05

where 80% of the country, our votes

39:08

don't matter as much as a handful of voters

39:10

in swing states.

39:11

I realize I've taken us a little bit off topic of moving

39:14

this forward. No, no, I took this off topic. I don't care. Well,

39:16

so there's a growing movement for... It

39:18

would be very difficult to abolish the electoral college

39:21

because that requires a constitutional amendment, but there

39:23

is a growing movement for what

39:25

is called the National Popular

39:27

Vote Interstate Compact.

39:29

And that is an agreement

39:31

between states

39:33

that would award that state's electoral

39:35

votes. If enough states sign onto

39:37

the compact, they would all agree to

39:40

submit all of their electoral

39:42

votes to the winner of the national popular

39:44

vote.

39:45

There are a lot of

39:47

states that have already signed on. If enough

39:49

states signed on to reach 270 votes,

39:52

we would never again have a president

39:55

take office without winning the popular

39:57

vote, as has already happened twice.

39:59

this century, we would no

40:02

longer have a situation where, you

40:04

know, if you're, if

40:05

you're a Republican in New York, your

40:08

vote doesn't matter so much. If you're a

40:10

Democrat in Alabama, your vote doesn't matter

40:12

so much. Anyway, I've taken us down

40:14

a wonky path. Sally has a comment. Yes,

40:16

I'm curious. No, I have a question,

40:19

Alan. What is this pact called,

40:21

say it again, that people are signing on to states?

40:23

The National Popular Vote Interstate

40:26

Compact. What is the minimum

40:29

number of states that have to sign on for

40:31

it to be something that becomes an

40:33

actual enacted

40:35

piece of legislation in this country?

40:37

It would require a few more states. It

40:40

would require enough states so that

40:42

their combined vote total would

40:44

be more than 270 electoral votes.

40:47

And where are they right now?

40:50

It's a little under that. And I

40:52

can point you to, if you want to find out more about

40:54

this, Inequality Media and

40:56

Robert Reich, with whom I work, have

40:58

just put out a video on the topic.

41:01

And so people who want to learn more about the National

41:04

Popular Vote Interstate Compact

41:06

can check it out there. But Alan, let's say

41:08

I lived in Wyoming and Wyoming

41:10

was part of this. Wouldn't I feel that,

41:13

oh,

41:13

my vote now really is meaningless?

41:16

You know, some people are making that argument, but

41:19

as it stands now... Doesn't it

41:21

make, if this comes into being, doesn't

41:23

it make everybody's individual

41:26

vote more meaningful because it

41:28

will be the popular vote

41:30

that elects... Okay, that's a point. Yes,

41:32

that is what I would argue. That's what a lot

41:34

of people who support this argue. Virtually all

41:36

states have a winner-take-all system

41:39

with their electoral votes. So

41:41

if you're in a state and you

41:44

cast your vote for the loser of your state,

41:47

your vote is effectively thrown out.

41:49

Your vote doesn't go into the pool because

41:51

all of the electors, even if it's just

41:53

by a narrow margin... As it stands now,

41:56

as it stands now, with the electoral college. But

41:58

if this was not... Yes. If

42:01

the national popular vote... If the national popular vote... If the national popular

42:03

vote... Yes. And it is,

42:06

I mean, at the moment,

42:08

at the moment, the only presidents this

42:10

century who have won without winning the

42:12

popular vote were Republicans.

42:14

So at the moment, at the moment

42:17

one could say, oh, well, this favors Democrats

42:19

over Republicans.

42:21

This favors democracy.

42:24

The loser, the person who did,

42:27

ideally in a democracy, the person who wins

42:29

should be the person who got the most votes. There

42:32

may be more people identifying as Democrats now.

42:34

There may be more people identifying as Republicans in

42:36

the future. We should,

42:39

taking party out of it, we should, if we

42:41

believe in democracy, we should want the winner of the most

42:43

votes to be the one who's elected.

42:46

And after... Yeah.

42:48

Right. And after that election,

42:51

can I ask,

42:52

were you really depressed?

42:54

It's...

42:57

You know, I think... So I've been on... I've

42:59

been on winning presidential campaigns and I've been

43:01

on losing presidential campaigns. It

43:03

feels better to win.

43:05

But I

43:07

wasn't depressed for myself so

43:09

much. It's painful to put in a

43:11

lot of work for something and have it not pay off.

43:14

But I'm in a place of privilege. I'm

43:17

a college educated white

43:19

man.

43:20

I was not depressed for myself. I

43:22

was depressed because the things

43:24

that came to pass were the things that we'd predicted. We

43:27

predicted that the president would

43:30

weaponize immigration policy in

43:32

a way that would tear families apart.

43:34

And that is exactly what

43:36

happened. We predicted

43:39

that the president would appoint judges

43:42

who would strip away reproductive

43:44

freedoms.

43:45

And that is what has happened. And

43:47

again, that's not something that is going to

43:49

affect my body. So I am not

43:51

depressed for myself. I am depressed for

43:53

the state of rights in our country.

43:57

And we also predicted that at

43:59

a...

43:59

moment of great national

44:02

crisis,

44:03

that president would not be able to rise

44:05

to the occasion. And the sad

44:07

truth is, no matter who was president,

44:10

COVID would have had a devastating impact

44:12

on the country. But we specifically had a president

44:14

who concealed

44:16

the dangers that were being made aware,

44:19

that he was being made aware of by his

44:21

own security team, who

44:24

hampered the ability of public health

44:26

officials to get the word

44:28

out about those dangers, undermined

44:32

calls for wearing

44:34

of masks and social distancing.

44:37

And there have been studies

44:39

that show that

44:41

a large percentage of

44:43

the deaths that occurred in 2020 could

44:46

have been averted. Had

44:48

there been a strategic

44:50

response as opposed to an impulsive,

44:53

ego-centered response to

44:55

the crisis. So that's the thing

44:57

that's depressing to me, not that the work that I

45:00

did didn't pay off.

45:01

James? Yes, Sally's

45:04

brothers. I always wanted to say that. Oh,

45:06

I'm glad you did. Because a lot

45:08

of people come up to me and say, aren't you Sally Field? Anyway,

45:13

now do you see after hearing Alan

45:15

speak, why if you had

45:17

to measure the stress in the room,

45:19

the first moments that

45:21

I started shooting my small part in his

45:24

film, I was frightened

45:28

and nervous because Alan

45:31

is so aware of

45:34

everything that's going on and so

45:36

well spoken

45:38

and such a high IQ

45:41

that I just feel like

45:43

where's Waldo.

45:46

I was just thinking that while he was talking like,

45:48

oh, this guy really not only

45:50

knows a lot but the way

45:52

you said it, Alan, was compassionate

45:55

without being overbearing. It

45:57

was good. Well,

45:59

I've I've had the good fortune to be in the room

46:01

with people who are smarter than I am at some

46:04

key moments in history. And

46:07

so

46:08

I'm just sharing what I've gleaned. But

46:11

Sally, I'm very sorry if at any moment

46:14

you felt intimidated because I have just such

46:17

deep admiration for your talent.

46:20

And James, I want to say that I

46:24

don't want to reveal the twists that are involved

46:27

with Sally's character, but

46:29

her performance and the surprises

46:32

that she brings to her performance. There

46:34

were moments where I had to bite my

46:37

hand to not laugh and spoil

46:39

the take. And then there were other moments where I

46:41

was tearing up because of the poignance that

46:44

she brought to the role. Well, national

46:46

treasure and everyone should want to work with

46:49

her. And I'm just incredibly

46:51

lucky that

46:54

she was a part of our project.

46:56

That's the fact, Sally, that you play someone who

46:58

lives in a storage locker. That's enough

47:00

to get me to

47:01

see the movie because I often

47:03

thought when I first was in New York City

47:06

and it is so

47:07

all anybody talks about in New York City,

47:09

particularly young people is

47:10

how am I going to live? Where am I going to live? What

47:13

do you know of an apartment? Can I find an apartment?

47:15

It's impossible to find an apartment. Is there a roommate?

47:18

Is the area good?

47:19

Like my kids are going through this.

47:21

They lived in the East Village, not only both living

47:23

in Brooklyn.

47:24

It is hard. I lived in the

47:26

Chelsea Hotel when I first got to New York. But

47:29

before that, I actually

47:30

lived in Astoria a little bit. And

47:33

it is hard. And there's so much

47:35

to deal with. New York City is a hard place to

47:37

live, particularly when you're young.

47:40

I just wanted to say about

47:41

Alan talking

47:43

more than once in this interview so kindly

47:46

and adoringly of me that

47:49

who's missing on

47:51

camera and who's missing being

47:53

spoken about more is his wife,

47:56

Jennifer Lee Houston,

47:57

who is... Quite

48:00

a phenomenal woman and

48:03

she deserves to be interviewed more than me. She's

48:06

in almost every shot of this film and

48:08

she does a bang-up job

48:11

and this film was shot, you know,

48:13

so

48:14

quickly because of budget

48:16

restraints and she just

48:19

didn't fail her husband or any of us.

48:21

And I wish she was here. Alan, can

48:23

you speak adoringly about your wife,

48:26

the way you speak about me, but even more so?

48:28

Because she's... Alan, actually, let me

48:30

ask because she... In the trailer, by

48:32

the way, she's hilarious, like just her timing,

48:34

everything. But

48:36

how did you and Jennifer meet?

48:38

You know, we just... There's

48:40

not a great story. We met at a friend's party. Well, then

48:42

I've been... You meet everyone at parties. Yes.

48:46

I meet every... Apparently, I meet everyone who's

48:48

important in my life at parties. We

48:51

met at a party and it

48:54

was basically love at first

48:56

sight and I was a real

48:59

jerk to my oldest friend that

49:01

night because I was

49:03

at the party. My oldest friend was at

49:05

the party, someone I've been friends with since

49:07

third grade. I sat down at

49:10

the dinner table. It was a dinner party. I sat down

49:12

at dinner next to my wife, my

49:15

future wife, Jen, and my

49:17

oldest friend was sitting

49:19

at the end of the table to my left

49:22

and I was just so taken with this woman, I

49:24

just turned my back on my

49:27

friend, literally turned my back on my

49:29

friend

49:30

and I just talked to

49:32

Jen all night and I guess my

49:34

friend talked to no one

49:37

that night. Yeah, but your friend knew

49:40

the rules are the rules. You give your

49:42

boy a chance there

49:44

to not talk to you if he's got

49:46

something going on. So that's the rules.

49:49

I think he's forgiven me because his wife

49:52

is one of the four producers

49:54

on the film, his wife Beth Ann Mester Marino.

49:56

And he actually, my friend Mike

49:59

Voitko was...

49:59

was involved in one of the more

50:02

difficult scenes. So I think he's

50:04

forgiven me for that. I think since I

50:06

married the woman that I was

50:08

talking to that night. But what Sally

50:11

is saying is true. Jennifer is extraordinary,

50:14

and she does every

50:16

range of emotion in this movie.

50:18

She is, her character is

50:21

put through kind of literal

50:23

hell, and she is

50:26

funny, she is poignant, she is

50:28

driven to tears, she is driven

50:30

to screams. She is- And she's

50:33

so strong. Yes, and

50:36

she's a musical

50:38

performer. She sings multiple

50:40

songs in the movie. Wow. So

50:43

it is, she had in her own

50:45

right, made a name for herself as

50:47

a viral performer,

50:49

performing, I guess everything comes back to politics.

50:52

She did political song parodies during

50:55

the Trump presidency that got many

50:57

millions of views. And that's what a lot of

50:59

viewers know her best as. Where

51:02

did she do them? Like on YouTube or TikTok?

51:05

Yeah, on, well on

51:07

Facebook and Twitter,

51:10

yes. So if you

51:12

look for things like crime

51:15

after crime or pathological

51:17

liar, you'll

51:19

find many tens of billions

51:21

of views, videos that she's done. She is an

51:23

extraordinary performer.

51:25

So what's next? Like now that you

51:27

have won an award, you're probably

51:30

gonna be at other film festivals. What's next?

51:32

Do you release this independently? Do you try to sell it

51:34

to a Netflix? Does a studio pick it up? Like

51:37

what happens next to a movie like this? We're

51:39

going to be playing at a number of festivals.

51:42

The next one will be the Grossman Fantastic

51:45

Film Festival in Slovenia

51:47

next

51:48

month. Slovenia!

51:51

Slovenia, yes. Maribor, the

51:53

only city I know of in Slovenia. No,

51:56

no. And I'm not sure how to

51:58

pronounce the name of the city where it is. So

52:00

I'm not going to butcher it. So

52:03

that is the next festival on our agenda. We're going

52:05

to play at a number of festivals, and then

52:08

we will soon be able to make

52:10

an announcement about a distribution

52:12

deal. And the goal is for the

52:14

film to ultimately be widely

52:17

available for people to see, and

52:19

people who follow us, people who follow

52:22

Evil Sublet on social media or

52:24

go to evilsublet.com will

52:26

be able to find out when

52:29

they can see it.

52:30

James, you have to ask

52:32

Alan to tell you about how he got extra

52:35

funding for the film. I

52:37

saw there was kind of like almost like a Patreon-like

52:39

page but tell me, Alan, how

52:41

did you get the final funding for the film? We

52:44

got a fair share of the budget from

52:46

the offer that anyone who

52:48

donated over $20

52:50

could have their

52:52

face turned into a ghost in the movie.

52:55

Oh, that's great. That's brilliant.

52:57

This face, that's an obvious face, but

52:59

in the movie we might have like in the

53:01

shadows a face that you don't notice right

53:04

away. So we have over 200

53:07

hidden ghostly faces in the movie.

53:10

I'm happy we did this for

53:12

several reasons. There's the logistical reason that

53:14

it helped us pay for making the movie, but

53:17

also I like that the people

53:19

who contributed to the movie are

53:22

literally a part of it,

53:24

but also it's pretty darn creepy

53:27

when it was premiering at the

53:29

Coney Island Film Festival last week, there

53:31

was one moment where I'm sitting near someone and

53:34

I know that there's been this face in the background the

53:37

whole

53:38

time, you know, it's in the middle of the scene and

53:40

then somebody

53:41

goes, what? And then like they just noticed

53:44

that a face was there the whole time. And there's

53:46

something very disturbing about a face having been

53:48

there that you didn't notice right

53:51

away.

53:52

Well, I can't wait to see it. When

53:55

do you think I'll be? I tried to get a link because,

53:57

you know, we were doing this podcast.

53:59

I tried to get to a link to it, but you guys said,

54:02

no, not available. When can I see

54:04

this movie?

54:05

Well, you're in Atlanta. Hopefully we'll be coming to

54:07

a festival in your neck of the woods soon.

54:09

And, uh, then hopefully before too

54:12

long, we'll be able to, uh, make announcements about

54:15

when and where people can see it either in theaters

54:17

or, uh, on streaming services.

54:20

I can't wait. And it's evil sub led

54:22

Alan Piper, Sally Struthers.

54:25

You've been winning awards. It's been getting

54:27

buzz. I really look forward to it. Sounds like I

54:29

saw, I love the trailer. I love the concept

54:32

having been involved in looking for apartments

54:34

many, many times for decades in

54:36

New York city.

54:37

I, Sally, I would like to ask one more question just

54:40

on your, on your

54:41

rear. And this is an odd question, but you've

54:44

had such a storied and again,

54:46

iconic career, and

54:47

this is going to sound like a weird question, but at

54:49

what point do you think you were the most

54:52

depressed in your career and

54:54

how did you deal with that? Well,

54:57

I've got to admit that when I

54:59

was finished

55:00

filming all in the family, I did eight

55:03

seasons as did Rob Reiner.

55:05

Our contracts were up. We both chose

55:07

not to renew.

55:08

And then I in real life

55:11

gave birth to my daughter and,

55:12

uh, she

55:15

was three years old when CBS

55:17

decided to go ahead and put a

55:19

Gloria

55:21

sitcom on and

55:23

place it on the same night and the next

55:25

half hour after Archie bunker's place,

55:28

which Carol O'Connor was doing when,

55:30

when Jean Stapleton had finished her contract

55:33

and didn't renew. And there was just Carol

55:35

O'Connor willing to play Archie a little

55:37

more.

55:38

And so they moved him from that empty house

55:40

to the bar and made him the

55:43

owner of the bar called Archie bunker's place.

55:46

So they positioned Archie

55:48

bunker's place in the first half hour. And

55:50

then following that on CBS was Gloria.

55:53

And Gloria was doing very well,

55:55

but this executives, I call

55:57

them the suits, you know, a bunch of.

56:00

of business people who get to

56:02

make artistic decisions, but they graduated

56:04

from college with business

56:06

degrees. They're not artistic

56:09

people, they're numbers crunchers. And

56:12

so, Carroll didn't want to play Archie anymore.

56:14

He'd been doing it for 10 or 11 years. He

56:17

was done.

56:18

So they literally threw the baby out

56:20

with bathwater. They said, well, we

56:22

don't care to keep Gloria on the air since

56:25

we don't have Archie Bunker's place to lead in. We

56:27

won't put it on all by itself to see

56:29

if it still holds its audience. We're just gonna

56:31

take Sally off too.

56:33

And I have to admit that I

56:35

was terribly depressed about

56:38

not being given a chance to see if I

56:40

could fly on my own without the lead

56:42

in of Archie Bunker's place. That was a

56:44

bitter pill to swallow, but as you can see,

56:47

I'm still here.

56:48

I'm still working. I never stopped working.

56:51

How did you bounce back emotionally

56:53

from that? Well, I had a

56:55

daughter at home, a little tiny girl, and

56:58

I'd just been through a divorce. My husband

57:00

and I divorced when she was

57:01

not even one. So

57:05

that occupied all my time and gave me great

57:07

joy. I mean, life does always give

57:09

you the yang with the yang. You just have to wake

57:11

up and realize it.

57:13

So that might've been depressing career-wise,

57:15

but I had wanted to be a

57:17

mother terribly, and there was

57:19

my beautiful baby girl, and that brought

57:21

me great joy. You know, you have two girls.

57:24

Yeah, well, thank you for that answer. And

57:26

thank you, Alan, for coming on the podcast,

57:29

and Sally for coming on the podcast, and

57:31

Evil Sublet.

57:32

I've never really been a big fan of the

57:34

horror genre, but I absolutely cannot

57:36

wait to see this given how you guys have

57:38

been describing it, given what I've read and what I've

57:40

already seen.

57:42

I cannot wait to see this. Evil Sublet,

57:44

I hope you get on Amazon or Netflix at least,

57:46

because that's mostly what I watch. I watch

57:49

Apple Plus also, and HBO

57:51

Max, all the other streaming services,

57:53

actually. So please get somewhere or

57:55

be in the movie theaters, anywhere, because I want

57:57

to see this now, and send it to my daughters to...

57:59

Thank you so much. Thank

58:02

you for having us and thank

58:04

you for those words. Thank you, James. Thank

58:06

you, guys. Thank you. Oh my gosh, Gloria. Thank

58:09

you, Gloria.

58:39

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