0:00

Oh Tommy, Kel Weekend, Kel Nui,

0:02

Kel Weekend. It was certainly,

0:04

it was Tré Bon, Pornhois,

0:09

Tommy,

0:13

I enjoyed it. Stop it mate, you know I hate

0:16

it, you know I hate it. Well no, it's the last pod. Shut

0:18

up. Aretevu, aretevu. I enjoyed

0:20

it, along with 80,000 and 64 other people. I enjoyed

0:23

it with a

0:26

couple of chilled glasses of champagne actually.

0:28

I took a picture of it and a few people

0:31

have said, oh a nice glass of Van

0:33

Blanc, nice glass of white. No, no, I

0:36

need everyone to know that it was champagne because

0:38

I'm

0:39

just that level above, okay. It

0:41

was a very, very nice night for Les Sous D'Afrique. They

0:44

did the job on New Zealand. Narrowest of margins.

0:46

Some people are calling it a great World Cup

0:48

final. Some people are calling it an epic. Some people

0:50

are calling it the best ever. A tonne

0:52

to talk about Tommy. How was it for you fella?

0:55

Did you love the final? Yes, I did. How

0:57

could you not love the final, mate? It's the final of the Rugby

0:59

World Cup. It was unbelievably

1:02

close. I do think

1:04

the Rugby World Cup is a bit like you on a night out. I think

1:06

we peaked a little bit too early. We peaked at the quarters

1:09

because that weekend was unreal.

1:11

But you're going to get that, aren't you? Semi-finals,

1:14

finals. It's not about the style of rugby you

1:16

play when you get to the knockout stages. It is

1:18

all about winning. All about winning. That's all

1:20

you're thinking about. You're not thinking, oh God, we better go

1:22

out here for the final and entertain everyone and play

1:25

some good rugby. If we win, we win.

1:26

Who cares? These guys care massively.

1:29

And it was all about the stat on

1:31

the scoreboard. You look at some of those moments, you

1:33

look at things like the odd

1:35

drop ball, the odd miss kick and

1:37

all that. And then you think, oh, if Jordie Barrett

1:40

had got that kick or if Richie Moana had got that

1:42

or poor old Sam Kane. I mean, a word

1:44

on him in a minute. Brutal for him. Just feel so sorry

1:46

for him. But not that it was the wrong call. I just feel

1:48

so sorry for that man. But then

1:51

you look at Peter Steffty-Toit and you think, I don't

1:54

go in for the whole deserving thing, as you know, but

1:57

to have that guy on a losing side would have felt

1:59

a bit wrong. I think 28 tackles I think

2:01

he made. 128 tackles he made. A

2:04

hundred. Amazing. Did

2:06

you ever do, no like stats when you were playing? Like

2:08

did you have tackle counts or anything like that?

2:10

Yeah. You must have gone over 20 a couple of times.

2:13

Asked me my best ever. Biggest ever tackle

2:15

count Dave, what is it? Well, 12.

2:17

Yeah. All aggressive

2:20

hits though. 100% dominant

2:22

collisions. 12 shots, none missed. 12 turnovers.

2:26

13 out of the 12, passive. How

2:29

many attempted jackals in a whole career won

2:31

right in the last year because I knew my

2:33

shoulders would go mate. And I got whacked from the side, I thought

2:35

I'm doing that again. No way. Yeah, but you'd be

2:37

a different player now. Oh, I'd be flat out now. Players

2:40

spend loads more time on flexibility. And

2:42

people actually do their rehab now and they get injured. That

2:44

separates the old from the new. So

2:46

what's it like being back home? In

2:49

your listed building in the city of Bath, has

2:51

it been tough? Have you enjoyed it? But is it nice

2:53

now

2:54

to come back to your fault? Coming

2:57

back to

2:58

an empty house, my wife and kids

3:00

are on their way back from somewhere. So I had half

3:03

an hour on my own when I got back, which is, as you know,

3:05

no one admits it but it's the best half an

3:07

hour of your life. What'd you do? I watched

3:09

car videos on YouTube. Same as I always do. That's

3:11

what I do. On the throne in the toilet? No,

3:14

I'm not an animal, sofa. Then they got back

3:16

and you've got a baby

3:19

with a cold, a toddler with a cold and

3:22

a dog who takes about an hour off to get back,

3:24

finds a nappy somewhere that hasn't been

3:26

locked in a bin, eats it and spreads

3:28

it out over the carpet. What

3:30

you're saying is you'd rather be... You know me,

3:32

Tommy. I don't complain. I'm like Sia

3:34

Khaleesi. I just get on with the job. All days

3:37

complain. All days complain. That's a fact. All

3:39

I want is an immaculate house,

3:42

loads of food ready for me to eat whenever I want

3:44

it and the ability to go to the gym

3:46

whenever I want and stop for a coffee on the way there and

3:49

on the way back. And that not make me a bad dad.

3:51

That isn't how it works. So I'm just

3:53

here faking it like everyone else, mate.

3:55

Been to the gym already, you're asking. Got up at five.

3:58

So it's our dear listeners. Shanks in

4:00

the gym this morning, he sent me quite a funny

4:02

picture of, for those of you who don't know

4:04

what a gym bro is, this guy was a gym

4:06

bro at 6 o'clock this morning, so do you want to explain

4:09

his outfit, Tommy? He

4:11

wasn't the biggest guy, he's just got one of those,

4:13

I don't know what type of vest you call him, where it comes really

4:16

low down by your side, it's

4:18

really loose, so you can basically see

4:20

a lot of side boob, you

4:23

have slammers on as well, so he was

4:25

doing upper body with great

4:27

lifting shoes on, and I just sent a

4:29

message, I sent a picture of him saying to the

4:32

fans, I love this guy,

4:33

love it,

4:34

he basically looks like he should be working

4:37

out in Venice gym for Mr Olympia

4:39

when... He's a fitness first in Cardiff next

4:42

week, and his vest said be

4:44

a visionary on it, I used to go to the CrossFit gym

4:46

in Bath and it was great, and I had a mate that would

4:48

go in there, he was a top bloke, and he

4:50

was the least beastly man you've ever seen, about

4:53

5'8", carrying a few extra

4:55

pounds, not genetically gifted in terms

4:57

of strength and fitness, very bright

4:59

guy, and he just wore variations

5:02

of the same t-shirt that said beast mode

5:04

on them, and you'd see

5:06

him just finishing off a cigarette before he came in,

5:09

it's not 7.15 in the morning, he'd flick it to the

5:11

side and he'd cough up a little

5:13

bit and say, here we go, beast mode, they're

5:15

my favourite guys. You see people in the gym and they just wear

5:17

the same kit, exactly the same kit,

5:20

every single day, I just wonder where they've

5:22

got like 7 of the same vest

5:24

and 7 of the same shorts,

5:26

or they just recycle it. I'm that

5:28

guy. You probably have to get your t-shirts and shorts back

5:30

in Savile Row, don't you, made in Savile Row, so costing

5:33

you 3 bags, a gym kit. Couldn't

5:35

find shorts that fit, then found some,

5:38

and

5:39

bought 6 pairs of the same shorts

5:41

about 5 years ago. They go below the

5:43

knee. The NBA.

5:48

They're Chicago Bulls shorts, retro, but

5:50

I bought some shorts that fit-ish-ish,

5:53

and I

5:54

got 2 t-shirts that I rotate,

5:56

and they are both from

5:59

a other brand of available a Nike kit

6:01

drop that Richard Hill

6:03

organised for us when you and I were at Saris and

6:06

they are from circa 99, 2000. I'm

6:09

not joking. Holes in the lot.

6:12

Don't do flash gears for the gym fella. Don't do

6:14

flash gears at all. They had some rotation.

6:16

We got a good laundry set up at the house. I

6:19

rotate through and it's clean every time. I've never

6:21

worn used

6:23

kit to the gym and I never wore kit two

6:25

days in a row when I was a pro player. All

6:27

right.

6:28

Shanks, that's enough. Jibba Jabba

6:30

from you and me. We're actually talking about nothing at this point. So

6:32

let's bring in Butch James for

6:35

whom the springbok victory at the weekend

6:37

is probably a bit bittersweet. I

6:39

know that Butch is a big springbox

6:42

fan as a retired player and desperate for them to win

6:44

every game. But the worry is now

6:46

that Andre Pollard is the only

6:49

springbok fly half to one, two World Cups. So

6:51

is he going to take all of Butch's like positions

6:54

on pro and golf days and endorsements and

6:56

stuff like that is the big worry. Butch, very

6:58

welcome and are you pleased or are you worried? I was

7:00

just flat, I was just sharing. Yeah,

7:02

it is quite worrying. Let's hope that he carries

7:04

on playing for a couple more years

7:07

so that I do get invited to those golf days. Otherwise,

7:09

yeah, I'll be a bit disappointed. But

7:11

yeah, just happy for all of them. I think there

7:14

were

7:14

two guys that had won the World Cup before Saturday

7:17

and now there are 17 of them. So yeah,

7:20

it's great for all of those guys.

7:22

Butch, were you a little bit surprised about

7:24

Pollard's call up to start

7:26

in the final? And how do you

7:28

think someone like Manny LeBoc is going to cope

7:31

with basically being the number one choice

7:34

through all of tournament?

7:35

Come to the final. See you later. Yeah,

7:37

I thought I was happy with the

7:39

selection in the semi final to stick

7:42

with Mani and to bring

7:44

Andre off the bench. Obviously, it

7:47

didn't go too well for Mani in that game and then Andre

7:49

got to play the 50 minutes which showed

7:51

that he could probably push himself to go for

7:53

the full 80 in the final. So I was happy

7:55

with the selection. After the semi, it was

7:58

the one choice.

7:59

One change to the team that I would have made myself,

8:02

I would have put Andre to start. In

8:04

saying that I felt really sorry for Marnie, I thought

8:06

he's been outstanding for the spring walks, brought

8:09

something new and different to the way they play. I

8:11

think he'll take a lot of confidence still

8:14

going back home, not to play in the URC

8:16

for the Stormers. He will take a lot

8:18

of confidence from the World Cup. He must

8:21

keep his head up and I think after

8:23

that Irish game he missed a few kicks, but since then

8:25

I can't recall him missing another one. He

8:30

needs to keep his head up high and he should be very

8:32

proud of himself. Yeah, brilliant player. Butch,

8:35

I want to know where you watched the final. Were

8:38

you with loads of mates, teammates? Was it

8:40

a sort of a corporaty thing? Where were

8:42

you when you watched it? Actually, I had to

8:44

go up to the Super Sports Studios

8:46

on Saturday for one of the URC games,

8:49

the Stormers' Scarlet's game at 4 o'clock.

8:52

Then I was meant to only

8:54

fly back the next morning, but I got them

8:57

to get me on a flight to Hot Pots 7 because

8:59

we were watching a friend's, yeah, just

9:01

around the corner actually from our house, yeah. And

9:04

when the aeroplane got pushed out,

9:07

the hydraulics on that, whatever

9:09

pushes the plane out got stuck to

9:12

the aeroplane. I sat on the Tomak

9:14

for 45 minutes. We took

9:16

off at quarter past eight. So as soon as I

9:18

landed, the game had started

9:21

and while we were still sitting in our seats, obviously

9:23

people were getting the messages that we were 3-0 up.

9:26

So I raced to my car, got

9:28

in the car, raced home and got to,

9:31

I only missed the first 20 minutes which wasn't too

9:33

bad. Talk us through the coaching setup

9:36

in South Africa because you

9:38

didn't replace a special

9:40

ice hooker where Malcolm Marks went out. You

9:43

had four scrum halves in your

9:45

squad. You had a 10 that started the

9:47

final that wasn't included in. You've gone for a 7-1

9:49

split again on the bench.

9:52

Like it's incredible. Yeah,

9:54

I think they are remarkable

9:56

too, Jacques and Rasi, I

9:58

think. been very innovative.

10:01

I think the 7-1, when

10:03

they did it the first time against New Zealand, that's

10:06

tricking him. I thought it was just

10:09

because Chez and I picked up a niggle that he

10:11

didn't want to risk anyone else really. So he

10:13

just thought, let's go with the 7-1. It's

10:16

a nothing game really. So yeah,

10:18

it was quite a strange one. And then they went for

10:21

it now in the final again. So yeah,

10:23

I think they've been amazing. I think just

10:25

if you just see the way the players absolutely

10:28

adore the two of them, and I think that for any

10:30

coaches is exactly what you want. You want the guys

10:32

to almost run through a wall for you. And

10:35

I think the spring box team will definitely do it

10:37

for the two of them. So they've definitely

10:39

got it right. And I think

10:41

they were throwing a lot of curve balls, the Malcolm

10:44

Marks injury, a few injuries before

10:46

the World Cup, I think Andre, Lukanya

10:48

Am and Lut Diaga. And then

10:51

obviously Malcolm going down and then only

10:53

having Bongi as the real

10:55

specialist hooker there.

10:56

Yeah, it was quite a risky one

10:59

to see Andre. But in saying

11:01

that, I'm not too sure. Just wherever I was

11:03

probably the next hooker to come up. And

11:06

they probably thought they'd rather risk it and

11:08

say Andre and that ended up working out perfectly.

11:10

On the players adoring them and all that, there's this, there's

11:13

a funny balance, isn't there at pro level

11:15

where people say things like you don't need your

11:17

coach to be your best mate, you need your coach to

11:20

technically improve you. And there is a balance

11:22

there, because, you know, I could walk

11:24

in there and be friendly, but I couldn't coach the guys, you know, and

11:27

you'll have great coaches who don't really have

11:29

relationships with the players off the training field. You've

11:31

been right to the top and won it. And you're now friends a lot

11:34

to these guys that have just won it again, back

11:36

to back, the emotional buy in

11:38

the fact that you're taking a field for someone you

11:40

actually to represent someone you actually

11:42

love and you don't want to lose for them and let them down.

11:45

Would you rather have a coach who was just wasn't

11:47

bothered about being your mate, but was technically excellent

11:50

or someone who really, really bought into you as

11:52

a person and tried to get the

11:53

best out of you emotionally? Where would you sit? I

11:56

would I would like my head coach to be

11:58

invested in me as a person. and

12:00

I agree I don't want

12:03

it to be my best buddy. I need him to

12:05

be harsh with me and tell me when I step

12:07

out of the line. But for me, the

12:09

head coach needs to be a people's person,

12:12

tell the truth and have the buy-in

12:15

of all the players. And then my technical

12:17

side, I would like the assistant coaches to have

12:19

that. So your forwards coach, your backline coach

12:22

come with the technicalities. And

12:25

yeah, I think for me, that's a

12:27

great recipe. I think

12:30

someone like Jacques has probably got a bit

12:32

of both. He's really invested and cares

12:34

deeply for his players, but he's technically

12:37

also very clever

12:39

and comes up with some exciting

12:41

things. Of course, his main thing is defense

12:44

and

12:44

the spring box strength is their defense.

12:47

And Butcheith, every rugby team in

12:49

the world, from under-eights all the way through

12:51

to the spring box who just won the World Cup, talk

12:54

about belief, you've got to have belief

12:56

and believe, boys, believe. You

12:58

watch as much rugby as we do. We all watch a

13:00

lot of rugby because we enjoy it and it's our job

13:02

and all that stuff. A lot of the time, the

13:04

talk about belief can be a bit synthetic. It can

13:07

be just the stuff you say. I don't know if

13:09

I've seen a team that believes in

13:11

themselves and can go that deep, that repeatedly,

13:14

as this spring box team. And although they

13:16

talk about playing for the country, it's far more than

13:18

just winning games or rugby. I actually, when

13:20

I first hear it, I think to myself, oh, come on. This

13:23

is just good PR. This is stuff you say. I feel

13:25

like I really believe it now. Do you believe

13:27

it? This stuff is real, isn't it? No, it's

13:29

definitely real. It's been great

13:31

to experience it at home for the

13:33

last two World Cups. It's just to see

13:35

the country get behind the team and how

13:38

much it means to all the people of South

13:40

Africa. It's just amazing. So,

13:44

yeah, the belief in the team, I think, it's

13:46

definitely changed with this squad. I

13:48

think since about 2018, these guys have gotten

13:51

together and

13:54

they seem to win those games right at the death

13:56

when they are a few points behind. Even

13:58

the court and semi-final, they're going to win. I mean the

14:01

semi-final still don't know how we won that

14:03

game We were nowhere in

14:05

that that whole game except for maybe five minutes

14:08

So yeah, I don't know how they

14:10

snuck through there and got to to win

14:12

both those games and then on Saturday

14:15

I thought they were the better team in the first half and

14:17

then New Zealand the better team in the second half

14:19

and

14:19

Under all that pressure they still managed to

14:21

hang on to it But she Safka team

14:24

that don't necessarily want to play with too much ball.

14:26

They rely on their defense a lot they're quite

14:28

happy to as well, but give

14:30

us a low down on Peter Staftey type

14:33

on the weekend because He

14:35

was man of the match. I think by

14:37

a

14:38

country mile. No, look, I

14:40

don't think I've ever seen that He's a brilliant rugby

14:42

player. I've never seen him play a game like

14:45

that in my life before he was just amazing

14:47

And I think he's got a he's got

14:49

a lot of driver within himself And

14:52

I think he would have known that if he has

14:54

to put in a good shift in a good game There's a good

14:56

chance that we could win the game So

14:59

I think that would have carried him through most of that

15:01

game and yeah He's just got an engine

15:03

on him. He can run and go all day long And

15:06

I thought he was outstanding

15:08

and yeah one of the best games from

15:11

a number seven I would say we've ever seen

15:13

and also the most talked about springbok

15:16

of this

15:17

Generation would be see a Khaleesi for

15:19

lots and lots of reasons. There's a real interesting

15:21

dynamic around England rugby

15:24

where it's really really hard to get access

15:26

to the players to do interviews

15:28

and features and Not all players love

15:31

doing media but it's kind of like there doesn't

15:33

seem to be anyone telling them this is what

15:35

you do or Actually, the

15:37

atmosphere around it is really closed and

15:39

then you see see a Khaleesi Just

15:41

wandering up and down the touchline ten minutes

15:43

after he's won a World Cup offering.

15:46

No problem. I can do your channel No problem. Come

15:48

and speak to you. No problem Yeah, cuz we're

15:50

English or British and we're cynical we're

15:53

cynical about everything. We don't believe you know

15:55

We want to question everything there was a little point

15:57

where you're thinking is this guy too good to be true.

15:59

Is this? real, a bit like the belief thing and it

16:02

appears that he is real and he's just the

16:04

best guy and the best leader that

16:06

world sport has ever seen. Has he achieved

16:09

God-like status? Is he going to take over as Francois

16:11

Pienaar, the

16:12

all-time great? Yeah,

16:16

I think he's an amazing guy. Like

16:18

you say, I mean, after a game, he'll spend

16:21

an extra 10, 20, 30 minutes signing and

16:24

for the fans. And the same as when

16:26

he walks around Durban, if he's

16:28

having a dinner and people want photos,

16:31

he sometimes even offers. If he sees a little boy

16:34

staring at him, he will offer and say, hey, do

16:36

you want to have a photo? He's just

16:38

so approachable that, yeah,

16:42

I'm sure you guys get blocked

16:44

there at all the games with

16:47

all the fans around you two guys. Oh,

16:49

better. Yeah. I've

16:52

never seen him say no or get upset

16:55

or not smile at a fan. He's

16:57

just an amazing person when it comes to

16:59

that and amazing leader. I

17:02

mean, it's our elections next year, so I

17:05

would love him to throw his name in the hat there

17:08

because he would do a wonderful job for

17:10

us.

17:10

Where next for the Springboks? Are you obviously going

17:12

to get quite a few players that are going to retire

17:14

after this World Cup? But if you

17:17

look at the URC and the players coming through, regardless

17:19

of the finances that's going on in rugby,

17:22

you're still producing lots and lots

17:24

of new talent.

17:25

It's in a good place, isn't it? I think South

17:27

come rugby. Yeah, it is, Shanks. We're

17:30

very fortunate that we've got brilliant

17:32

schools here in South Africa that are

17:34

producing great rugby players year

17:37

in and year out. That's probably

17:40

our biggest asset is our schools

17:42

and the rugby playing schools. And

17:45

yeah, like you say, there's so many youngsters coming through

17:47

in this squad that was there at the World Cup. I

17:49

think there will probably be a handful

17:52

that will retire in the

17:54

next year. And then obviously before

17:56

the next World Cup, there will probably be six

17:59

or so that will would maybe not make

18:01

it there. So there are a lot of youngsters coming

18:03

through and those guys that are retiring,

18:05

there is a backup for them that

18:08

is maybe just as good or

18:10

in a few years, some might be better. So it

18:13

is promising. There are maybe

18:15

one or two positions that we might be a little bit shorter

18:17

at the moment, but hopefully some youngsters

18:20

can come through and fill in there. But yeah,

18:22

I think it is in a good place at the moment and

18:26

obviously our coach is also leaving now to

18:28

Ireland.

18:29

So that will be an interesting call as well. If

18:31

Rossi just slots in and fills in there while

18:33

they find someone that they would think

18:35

will be suitable to replace Jacques

18:38

and yeah, if Rossi and

18:40

Jacques actually leave, I think it would be a

18:42

little bit of a worry. That would be big. That would be interesting,

18:44

wouldn't it? Because it turns out they've made some punchy

18:47

calls. Rassie's, I think, without

18:49

getting too deep into the last couple of years, he's done

18:51

a few things that you wouldn't call ideal in

18:53

the press, but actually they've

18:56

done some genius things as well. And they are the best team

18:58

on the planet and they've

19:00

done two World Cups in a row. So that sort of proves it. But in terms

19:02

of what's next for you, before we

19:04

let you go, I've got people I know really well

19:06

at Leicester Tigers and they will have,

19:08

if you want to pay for it, they will have dirt on

19:11

Andre Pollard. They'll have something

19:13

and he's done well this guy, but we need to wipe him

19:15

out. Yeah, myself, me and

19:17

Fronzo Pina, he's going to get some dirt

19:19

on Sia so that he can remain, him

19:21

and John can remain the best springboard captains,

19:24

but I think they're going to have to find a

19:26

lot of dirt to make sure that their name

19:28

is up there. And then if you guys can

19:30

get that on Pollard, please. I leave

19:33

it with me, because he did some really, really bad stuff

19:35

when he was at Leicester, really bad and I, we're

19:37

going to just, look, next time I come over, can you just look

19:39

after me, but you will wipe this guy out, okay? No, you

19:41

thought it, you thought it, yeah.

19:43

Yeah, unfortunately, I think he might be, he

19:45

might be absolutely perfect. He even, did

19:47

you notice during the final, he cut his cheek and he had that

19:49

perfect, like Rambo blood streak on his cheek.

19:51

That was absolutely perfect. Perfect,

19:53

like these pictures will last forever and he's looked at the screens.

19:56

They all look at the screens. He's seen it and he thought,

19:58

I'm not even wiping that because this.

20:00

is perfect. It was make-up. It

20:02

was make-up. Butchie, thanks for coming

20:04

on, my butch. And see you soon. Lots of love,

20:06

buddy. And nice to chat again. Nice to chat as well.

20:09

Thanks, Butchie. Cheers, boys. Oh,

20:11

mate,

20:12

he's looking good, isn't he? No, I know. Do

20:14

you

20:14

know he's got a tattoo

20:16

on his back? No. Get the first

20:18

hit in, even if it's leg. Yeah,

20:21

he

20:21

was... He wasn't shy

20:23

of colliding. Oh, mate.

20:26

I'm not sure he would have suited today's game. He'd

20:28

have to adopt his tackle technique. But back when he played, some

20:31

of the shots he put in,

20:32

oh, my days, mate.

20:35

Often you want to target 10s. You see it all

20:37

the time because 10s are smaller. They

20:40

just are. They're smaller than centers. They're smaller than,

20:42

obviously, back rows. But you never,

20:45

ever wanted to go down his channel because he would knock you and

20:47

he would rock you.

20:48

And the next minute, you'd be

20:50

on your butt. Hey, rock you and knock you and he'll

20:52

absolutely... Yeah, but the thing is, Tommy, what we found

20:54

is... Because obviously, the

20:57

listeners wouldn't remember because there's probably quite a few. Butch

20:59

played at Bath where I was for a few years and... Ooh, Bath friends. Bath

21:03

friends. But what we found

21:05

is that as soon as you got Butch James, a bit

21:07

like having Johnny Wilkinson, it really

21:09

helps your team when you've got the ball. When you

21:11

haven't got the ball, suddenly your 13s and

21:14

your back three become really, really important defensively

21:17

because people don't target your 10 channel anymore.

21:19

There's always moves that run in a 10 channel. But

21:21

Butch just leathered people. He leathered everyone

21:23

that came anywhere near him. And actually,

21:26

yeah, now and again, he's a bit naughty. But generally, he's just a

21:28

brilliant hitter. It's exhausting

21:30

to play as a prop, to play with a player like Butch James

21:32

or Johnny because everyone goes wide

21:34

all the time because they don't want to come anywhere near him. So

21:37

actually, you're constantly going east to west. And

21:39

it was tough for my fitness Tommy. That's all I'm saying.

21:42

So, World Cup final. Let's get into it.

21:44

Let's get into the game. Couple of specifics. Don't

21:46

need to be here all day because everyone's read 100 versions

21:48

of it already. But, Wayne Barnes,

21:50

first of all, now I was in a

21:52

swanky box sipping bubbly. But

21:55

I did keep my eye on the game. And I have

21:57

watched it back, of course, with kids on my

21:59

knee, which is... makes it quite difficult. But

22:01

I thought while there is no such thing as a perfect

22:04

performance from a human being in a game of sport, but

22:06

Barnes did really well. Yet I'm hearing that,

22:09

of course, as is de rigueur

22:12

these days, there are people going mad online

22:14

and sending horrible stuff to him and

22:16

whatever. What did you make of it? I agree with your comment

22:18

about Barnes. He didn't call a red

22:20

card. It was a yellow, the bunker system,

22:22

which is separate to the game.

22:24

That's where the red card came from. So it wasn't Wayne

22:26

Barnes that gave Sam Kane a red card.

22:29

Heavily involved Barnes, he was, which you're

22:31

going to get on a game like that because it's a final,

22:33

because it's going to be scrutinised, because of the weather

22:35

conditions. Weather plays a huge factor

22:38

in sport in rugby.

22:40

More so, I think, in rugby because you have to adopt

22:42

your game plan to it. As soon as I saw the weather,

22:44

I'm thinking this suits South Africa.

22:47

It just does because the ball is going to

22:49

be unbelievably slippery. It's going to be hard for New Zealand

22:51

to get the ball a little bit wide. South Africa,

22:54

one of their main strengths, I think, is their

22:57

back line and their spot blitzing. They don't

22:59

often blitz like a team. Like, you'd

23:01

see the full line coming up. They just

23:03

make really good decisions that they've acquired

23:05

over time. They've acquired a certain set of skills

23:07

over time that make them very dangerous. A bit

23:10

like Liam Neeson. They will find you and they

23:12

will chop you. But look at the wingers. Look

23:14

at Creel. They come out the line, they

23:17

read the play really well and there's a massive

23:19

level of intelligence there to know what to

23:21

do. Because you see it loads

23:23

in league rugby,

23:25

like the Gallagher or the URC. You

23:28

see it loads where players shoot out the line, they

23:30

make wrong calls and that's where the gap is.

23:32

They're punished for it. But

23:34

these guys, these South African teams

23:37

are so intelligent in how they defend

23:39

and they shut down attacks

23:41

like you wouldn't believe. Even more so in

23:43

these conditions. We have to talk about Sam

23:46

Kane, the red card, because

23:48

that obviously changed the game. Early doors

23:51

as well. There were some issues with South Africa.

23:53

They lost to Benambe really early, which was

23:55

a massive blow for them because Dion Furey

23:58

had to play a large... part

24:00

of that game as hooker when, you know, predominantly

24:02

he is back rope,

24:03

but your views on

24:05

the Sam came before I go? Absolutely

24:08

the right decision and as nice

24:10

as romantic an idea as it is to say, yeah, but it's

24:12

a World Cup final, so, you know,

24:15

can we go a little bit state of origin rugby

24:17

league and just let the boys play

24:19

and don't want to ruin the game? Absolutely the

24:21

right call and it's

24:23

so often we say, oh no, it's game over,

24:25

it's game over, we do it, you do it, I do it, so

24:28

often red cards are not game over anymore

24:30

because teams are incredibly fit, they've got eight fit

24:32

guys on the bench, they can deal with it, it doesn't

24:34

help, but they can deal with it and New

24:37

Zealand absolutely could have won that game without

24:39

Sam Kane and just from a rugby

24:41

point of view that was what it was, the right call, but

24:44

from a human point of view I just feel desperate

24:46

for that guy because he just gets pumped in

24:48

the press anyway, constantly questioned

24:50

and whatever, you know, journalists opinions are legitimate

24:52

and all that, but huge amount of pressure on him, he

24:55

really came good at this World Cup and

24:57

he will forever be the All Blacks captain

24:59

who got sent off on a World Cup final that they lost by a point,

25:02

I mean it is just, you saw him, you

25:04

saw him realise what had happened,

25:06

absolute panic and then bang, put the stony

25:09

face on because he didn't want to show weakness and

25:11

Chesley Colby later on when he got the yellow was

25:14

less able to disguise his despair, but

25:16

I just felt and feel just awful

25:18

for Sam Kane and I sort of hope he's got,

25:21

I'm sure he's got good people around him. I'm going to do a bit

25:23

of a Mark Poucatch now and ask you some questions.

25:25

Do you think that Jesse

25:27

Creel changed direction

25:29

and the height that he ran into Sam

25:31

Kane could have been a mitigating factor?

25:34

No, because the tackle is never low,

25:36

he knows the collision is imminent and he's never low, so

25:38

game over, your mitigations don't matter. Do

25:41

you think there should be a system where it

25:43

was trialled in super rugby where you get a 20

25:45

minute red card,

25:46

where the player gets sent off but can't come back

25:49

on? What you've got then is,

25:50

you've got the thing where is it

25:53

foul play or is it an accident and there

25:55

is foul play these days but there isn't that much, like

25:57

there aren't people deliberately doing people's knees, no

25:59

one's punching. or elbowing or gouging anymore

26:02

really. So you're asking rest to make

26:04

grey area decisions again, whereas this system

26:06

actually allows them to do the yellow.

26:08

I think the bunker system has really worked actually.

26:11

Where it doesn't work is when you're a fan

26:13

in the stadium. There's seven, I think ITV

26:15

with 7.7 million for that final.

26:18

So I realised people in the crowd

26:20

are a very small number compared with that. But

26:22

let the people who are there live know

26:24

what's happening because I'm sitting with clients

26:27

and mates and sponsors and they're saying what's happening, what

26:29

we're looking at. I said I couldn't

26:31

tell you. I could not tell you. The French replays as we know are

26:33

almost entirely random. Timing

26:36

and selection is almost entirely random. We've got no

26:38

idea what we're going to get. So you see someone score

26:40

a try and they replay a tackle from three minutes ago

26:42

and it's not quite that severe but it's not far

26:45

off. So I'm sitting there as a supposed

26:47

expert compared with other people on the row

26:50

of seats I'm on and no idea.

26:52

I'm not just saying this now because it is the

26:54

final.

26:55

I've seen a lot worse red cards than that. One

26:58

hundred percent it was yellow card.

26:59

But I think the power and the

27:01

force is coming from Jesse Creel who's moving. I

27:04

think there is a change direction.

27:05

Sam Kane isn't looking to

27:08

tackle him as he's not moving

27:10

forward. He is upright. I get that. He

27:13

is upright. He's looking to turn. He's looking

27:15

to grab Jesse Creel, turn him on

27:17

the floor which you see all the time. Turn him to New

27:19

Zealand side. The force is coming

27:21

from Creel. He does not dip

27:24

which is ultimately the reason why

27:26

he got red carded. But

27:28

I'm just torn between a yellow

27:30

and a red which makes me

27:32

in that amber zone. Yeah but I think you're

27:35

torn between knowing the laws

27:37

as they stand and knowing that he didn't get

27:39

low at any point so he's off and knowing

27:42

what you think the laws should be. Right

27:44

it's different. Not all

27:46

tackles where people remain upright are red

27:48

cards. Not all because they're mitigating

27:51

factors. See it all the time. You're not always

27:53

going to get a red card if you're upright. It depends what

27:55

the mitigating factors are coming into that. So

27:57

I am torn. It's not just me flat. Of course.

27:59

I'm not the only one saying this. Of

28:02

course, yeah, of course, like all these things, but

28:04

you've also got all of us a lot in TV studios

28:06

thinking, what are we going to say about this because we don't

28:08

know if it's yellow or red in it? That would be

28:11

another real takeaway for

28:12

world rugby would be the confusion around that.

28:15

It was a red and a lot of people can understand

28:17

why it was a red. It wasn't that controversial

28:20

where you're thinking, I don't know what to say, but

28:22

I'm just a little bit torn between a yellow and a red. That's

28:25

just my view. Whereas the Sia Khaleesi one, he's bent

28:27

at the hips, he's trying to get low. Yes, he

28:29

is very different. And some

28:32

of the impact is shoulder first

28:34

before head is made. The stats

28:36

though, like New Zealand with 40 men

28:39

had, they had nearly 150

28:41

carries. They had seven

28:43

breaks. There was like 37

28:46

defenders beaten. South Africa were just happy

28:48

just to defend and let New Zealand

28:51

attack them.

28:52

The big difference was

28:53

points of goal. New Zealand gave four penalties

28:56

away in their half. Carl Ardnell, every

28:58

single one. New Zealand had a couple of chances

29:00

to go for goal. They went for the line out, didn't

29:03

come away with anything. The red zone efficiency

29:05

was huge for South Africa. And

29:07

the amount of turnovers that New Zealand had as well,

29:10

and that is down to conditions because

29:12

New Zealand then started to figure out we're

29:15

not going to be able to

29:16

beat South Africa just by taking them

29:18

on physically. We have to try and shift the ball wide. And

29:20

they went to shift the ball wide. There were quite

29:22

a few knock-ons because it is wet. It

29:24

is poor conditions. You have to be so

29:26

accurate in that.

29:28

And could have gone either way. Barrett had

29:30

that kick at the end. It was an unbelievable

29:32

final for loads of reasons. But I thought

29:34

it's quite interesting how they obviously did their

29:36

prep, did the box, and

29:38

saw Richie Mowanga defending in the backfield quite

29:40

a lot. Heavy rain. He got pumped

29:42

with high kicks in that first half. Didn't

29:45

go well. Rarely went well for him. Lots

29:47

of pressure, decent kicks. They could

29:49

compete with New Zealand, put a lot of ball on

29:51

the floor in their own third. They kind

29:53

of played all the rugby in a sense

29:55

for a lot of the game. Not all the game, because actually in

29:57

that first half from set piece, South Africa really...

30:00

threatening using Colby coming left to right

30:02

a few times. They made a lot of ground and look you know

30:04

New Zealand was scrambling to defend them so they didn't

30:06

play all the rugby stats are stats out they

30:09

are but South Africa have won four World Cups the

30:11

only World Cup final in which they scored a try

30:13

was four years ago they haven't scored a try in

30:15

the other three so they won three out of four without

30:17

scoring a try. As you said earlier playing

30:20

all the rugby isn't the point winning

30:22

World Cup finals is where it's at and they're

30:25

very very good very very good

30:28

at winning at knockout rugby they're good at knockout

30:30

rugby at knockout rugby and three games

30:32

on the bounce one by a point it's

30:35

the finest of margins there's decisions like the R.D.

30:37

Surveyor penalty which Wayne Barnes

30:39

then says you know I didn't see that and this is kind of happens

30:42

this is what rugby is this isn't in the last minute this

30:44

is the game it's every game that happens it's

30:46

infinite variables you know it's human bodies coming

30:48

in at different angles with different levels

30:50

of fatigue and weather it's something like

30:53

infinite variables going into each breakdown

30:55

or not far off it a lot of variables so very

30:57

very hard for it to be immaculate but

30:59

I just think that the South Africans look

31:02

like they did their homework very

31:04

very well indeed and New Zealand were always

31:06

going to be threatening at points but South Africa

31:08

managed them so well and the Kirtley Arrins to tackle

31:10

in the corner the last ditch tackle I think it

31:12

was Enrico Ioani it's like that kind of

31:14

stuff that is it's desperation

31:16

tackling but every team has produced

31:18

that at some point in this World Cup they just produce

31:21

it when they need it. Their bench is unbelievable

31:23

as well and the effect they have these players

31:26

that come off the bench onto the team is

31:28

just huge. Deon Furios I mean

31:31

the line outs weren't great

31:32

but what a player. What a player Quagga

31:35

Smith, R.G. Sniman these

31:37

guys have a huge impact the front row the bomb

31:39

squad coming on all of these players

31:42

have such a big impact it's not just 15

31:44

because 50 60 minute well sometimes

31:47

after 30 minutes these boys come off the bench

31:49

come on to the game

31:51

and end up turning the game around and win it for him it's

31:53

it's a huge effort it's a massive squad effort.

31:56

There was one New Zealand mall they

31:58

caught and drive a line out and tried to mall writing

32:00

the South African line in the second half and

32:02

I was just right above that and I just watched Dion

32:05

Burry there and he's not a big man

32:08

by modern standards and he just was

32:10

working so hard and

32:12

he just ripped through the middle of straight

32:15

through the middle all legal, ripped through

32:17

the middle of the all blacks mall and I was just like that's

32:19

the sort of thing that 99.9% of

32:21

people won't notice but without

32:24

him there is a very good chance they

32:26

score at that point because it was set up quite nicely

32:29

therefore there is a very good chance they don't

32:31

win the World Cup. Tons of those moments over the

32:33

course of a game but 37 years

32:35

old, oldest ever Springbok debutante and now

32:37

he's a World Cup winner. Amazing story,

32:40

amazing set of gambles from the

32:42

South African management, just wonderful for

32:44

them. Do feel for Ian Foster a bit

32:46

as we've spoken about before. Obviously feel for Sam

32:48

Kane but feel for Ian Foster because he was

32:51

told he was getting the sack before he even landed in France

32:53

and you think that is a bit rough, wouldn't

32:55

it have been nice if he could have done a two fingered salute

32:58

on the way out, with a picture of him holding the

33:00

World Cup but I don't suppose he'll be short of options,

33:02

I think he'll be alright for cups of tea and toast. Yeah

33:05

it'll be fine. A quick reflection on the home

33:07

nations then Tommy because we've covered all of their

33:09

tournaments in detail on earlier pods when

33:11

they got knocked out of the tournament. What's the general move

33:14

in Wales please? That's good mate, it's good. We

33:16

used to call a final, there wasn't that much

33:18

expectation from us, good game

33:20

against Fiji, good game against Australia,

33:23

look at the back,

33:24

probably should have beaten Argentina because we had

33:27

the chances but scoring more

33:29

tries. I think last year, year

33:31

before we were averaging maybe two and a half tries a game.

33:33

Coming out of this World Cup we were averaging four which

33:36

is where you need to be at. So attack

33:38

was the issue coming into this and

33:41

we certainly look better in attack so all

33:43

in all quite happy. I'm

33:45

seven out of ten for Wales at the moment, where are you

33:47

with England

33:48

and keep it short. I think England are an interesting one because they

33:50

finished third in the World Cup, they finished strong in

33:53

the bronze final which loads of people

33:55

watched on telly amazing even though it's the third fourth playoff,

33:58

the overarching sense is that they've

34:00

delivered as much as we really expected

34:03

or hope they might deliver in the World Cup. They

34:05

were a gnat's fingernail away from

34:07

being in a World Cup final and then who knows when

34:09

the rain comes down. So they

34:12

did very, very well in this terms of this tournament

34:14

but I think the real question mark is how

34:17

do they go against France, Ireland,

34:20

Scotland, Wales. I'm just listing Six Nations

34:22

teams. How do they go in the Six Nations

34:24

when they don't have an attack which is repeatedly threatening

34:26

defences and scoring tries? They need to find tries

34:29

now, that's where it's at and the

34:31

bronze final probably summed them up a little bit in that

34:34

they dug in and won against an Argentina

34:36

team that really fought and they got the job done

34:38

but Henry Arendelle touched the ball minus 37

34:41

times and was no threat at all. As

34:43

I said in commentary, Tommy, there's

34:46

a responsibility on him to come and look for work.

34:49

There's also a responsibility on the team to create

34:51

space and actually give him the ball but that

34:53

doesn't seem to be part of the plan. When he did get the ball he

34:55

hoofed it one and you think is this a

34:57

team that was just set up to do well in this World Cup

35:00

and now they're going to start trying to layer on the attack.

35:02

Felix Jones, the coach, is coming from South Africa

35:05

to help with the attack. Double World Cup winner,

35:07

that should really, really help England but

35:10

England need to find an attack

35:12

and we won't know if they have or not until we get

35:14

to the Six Nations in isolation did

35:16

great. Like Henry Arendelle because I think he's

35:18

a really good player, you're right he didn't get much of the ball.

35:21

What's the point of having him on the field? Yeah. You

35:23

can be talent if you're not going to give him the right ball in the right

35:25

situation. What I would say is just

35:28

have a look at Mark Talaia. Exactly. See

35:30

his movement, see his work rate, see what he does. When

35:32

Sam came off

35:33

he became that extra carrier and he just

35:36

works and works and works and you

35:38

don't have to be 18

35:39

stone, 17 stone to

35:41

be able to pick and go. What you've got to be is good

35:44

on your feet and you attack players differently.

35:47

He doesn't stop moving Talaia. He's a bit like

35:49

a smaller version of Adi Savaya. Just a little

35:51

bit, just wriggles, spins, footwork

35:55

and runs at arms rather than chest and

35:58

he does an unbelievable job. be quite happy

36:00

putting him in on the back road for

36:02

New Zealand. Is that good? He's the new Jack Knoll. Yes,

36:05

he is. I think Ireland and France are

36:07

in a good place still, even though they got knocked

36:10

out. They got knocked out against the two finalists.

36:12

Feel a little bit sorry for Ireland. They beat South Africa

36:14

in the pool stages. They win their group, and

36:17

then they get New Zealand, don't they, as a reward.

36:19

So the way the pools were

36:21

structured, I did feel a little bit sorry

36:23

for them. But

36:24

whether or not they would have beaten them in the final, again, I don't know.

36:26

It could have gone either way. I think the quarter finals were super

36:29

close. France, similarly. I

36:31

mean, tough old draw for Ireland, of course, not

36:33

just them. You look at the route the box took to victory.

36:35

Geez, that's got to be the most savage route to a World

36:37

Cup victory ever. So I really wanted Ireland

36:39

to flourish at this World Cup, and they

36:41

sort of did. That quarter final could have gone

36:43

anyway. Fascinate to see how they bounced

36:46

back the next couple of years. But yeah, it

36:48

was kind of an Irish sporting

36:50

tragedy, wasn't it? But the game just moves

36:53

on, right? Scotland. Yeah, I mean, Scotland

36:55

ultimately fell out. I live in Bath,

36:58

and it means that Finn Russell's back playing for Bath and making

37:00

offloads out the back. So everyone around here is happy.

37:02

So where I am, everyone's buzzing that Finn Russell's

37:05

home early and played a few games for Bath.

37:07

But what do we always say about Scotland? We say

37:09

they play some really good stuff. They play some really good stuff,

37:11

but they can't quite get it done against the big boys. They've

37:14

just got to start getting it done against the big boys. Yeah, but how

37:16

do you do that? It's a tough

37:18

one. What do you make of them?

37:19

Horrendous pool to start with, because you've

37:21

got two of the best in the world in that pool.

37:24

You expect a big game. You always get a big game

37:26

from Scotland and the Six Nations. There's always

37:28

one. I was expecting it

37:30

in the Rugby World Cup. Didn't

37:32

get it, but it's where they are at the

37:34

moment.

37:35

They're not the level of Ireland. They're not the level of South

37:37

Africa. That's just a fact. They aren't at the moment.

37:40

But I think if they keep going in the

37:42

direction they are, then some

37:44

stage we're going to see improvement. I think

37:46

we've slowly seen improvement with Scotland year

37:49

after year. It's not big improvements, but they're

37:51

going in the right direction. As

37:53

we mentioned, we talked about all these sides at

37:55

length in previous pods. So do have

37:57

a listen and just boost our numbers, will you?

37:59

We'll get enough downloads, ITV

38:02

might have us back for the Six Nations and if we don't, well,

38:04

please on toast, we'll be OK for the next seven years.

38:06

We'll be on toast.

38:17

Team of the tournament time, David, which

38:19

is definitely going to see us get hammering.

38:22

Yeah.

38:22

It's just because people have got their favourites and

38:25

you can never be right. And there were

38:27

so many standout performers from so

38:29

many teams, including a lot of the tier

38:31

two, so-called tier two nations. Performance

38:34

nations, they're called. Performance nations. We're not going

38:36

to make everyone happy,

38:37

but we'll certainly make our families happy, right? And we'll

38:39

do them proud. All right. Do it

38:42

for your kids, flats. The good news is that World Rugby

38:44

have done their dream team the World Rugby

38:46

Awards yesterday and they're just getting hammered

38:48

on lines. That should deflect from us a little bit. Yeah.

38:51

And basically the question is, how can the Springboks

38:53

only have a couple of players in the team

38:56

and they won the World Cup? Yeah, get that. But,

38:59

you know, that kind of isn't the point. These are just a bit

39:01

of fun. Are you going to go left field? Are you going to

39:03

go a couple of tier two standout

39:05

performance nations or are you

39:07

just going to go predictable? No, I'm not because

39:10

they weren't in the tournament for long enough as a rule.

39:12

But I am. And then where there was a 50-50, I thought

39:14

there was somebody better from another country. So I

39:17

haven't tried to appease anyone here.

39:19

Just pick the players I would pick. You haven't overthought it,

39:21

have you? You can't accuse me of that. No. I

39:23

only thought about it 45 seconds ago. So can we start

39:26

at number one? Because teamless I always think come

39:28

out in the wrong order. Can we start at number

39:29

one with you please and go to 15? People

39:31

aren't going to like this because he's deemed to

39:33

have cost Ireland a semi-final

39:36

spot. But I think through the whole tournament,

39:38

Andrew Porter does

39:41

it all make for me.

39:42

Maui from Fiji also would have been a good shout

39:44

out to Porter. You're picking your team. Ox

39:47

and Che, yes. Done some great things.

39:49

But Porter starts, plays loads of minutes. Yeah.

39:52

He comes off the bench a lot. And Cyril

39:54

Biden start really till

39:57

halfway through the tournament. So I'm going to

39:59

Andrew Porter.

39:59

you like it or not okay it's my team up yours

40:02

yeah Malvaca hooker it's

40:04

yeah what a tournament he had good chef

40:06

Ben Tamafuna tight head right

40:09

show I know he didn't feature in the latter

40:12

stages but what it when he

40:14

did feature he was good France

40:16

Malheuver won't be happy but fine okay carry on

40:18

second rows I've gone Ebonette's

40:21

to Beth and Scott Barrett easy

40:23

yeah back row Peter Steph do tight

40:26

now he's at six he wears seven but you

40:28

often play six he mostly plays six

40:30

I don't know whether that's like a little sort of Francois

40:33

Pina sort of tip of the hat because

40:35

he was six and play seven that makes

40:37

sense they kind of go a bit left and right or

40:39

they sometimes wear the numbers a different way around

40:41

this of Africa it's something like that a little

40:44

bit but mostly mostly to

40:46

toy play six so he's my sick I don't think anyone's

40:48

arguing with him being in your team told me and he looks

40:50

like a six as well doesn't he I've

40:52

gone seven Lavani Bhatia

40:55

another good tournament great player

40:57

Rachel Jack Morgan's close I think but

41:00

Lavani Bhatia gets a nod for

41:02

me and then number eight world player

41:04

of the year Adi Sovea obviously easy

41:07

shout out eight okay right

41:09

scrum half Aaron Smith love it number

41:11

ten hundred Pollard who ultimate

41:14

winner didn't play that much stakes

41:16

were the absolute highest nailed

41:18

it nailed it nailed it I think I'm right in saying

41:21

he comes into the World Cup late doesn't miss a single

41:23

kick right hundred percent record he's the boss mate

41:25

okay he's the boss left

41:27

wing mark to layer tons of choice

41:29

on the wing could have picked 300 guys he wins because

41:33

he's worthless

41:34

got banned from a game from going out

41:36

a little bit late but what a reaction you

41:38

got from him incredible I thought he was

41:41

mega

41:41

yes Akki's at 12 that's kind

41:44

of easy call dare I say that yeah he

41:46

was nominated for world player of the year and

41:48

he was brilliant through the tournament yeah and

41:50

I have to leave it at 13 just love him love him

41:52

love him okay it also might be the most handsome

41:55

guy in the World Cup actually I've been wondering and again

41:57

on the right wing there's a hundred guys you can choose

41:59

but who would I pick to start in my

42:01

team, I'd pick Chezland Colby.

42:04

So would I. Love him. And

42:06

at Fullback, Hugo Keenan, that's who I would pick. I

42:08

mean there are lots of guys that you could stick Freddie Stewart

42:10

in there, take Bowdoin Barrett in there. Ramos.

42:13

Ramos, you could stick. Portuguese Fullback, forgotten his name. Sousa

42:16

Gedge. Sousa Gedge, I've forgotten how to say

42:18

it is the truth. Sousa

42:20

Gedge. Yeah, well, when you get to my level

42:22

of broadcast mate, you pick Confucius games and

42:24

I chose a lot of Portugal games to contemplate

42:27

on. So Sousa Gedge was fab, every

42:29

time he played, loved watching him play. But

42:31

who would I actually pick in my team, Hugo Keenan.

42:33

So there you have it. We'll pop that on ITV Rugby

42:36

for you to rip into.

42:37

And that is our final act

42:39

of the 2023 French World Cup. It's

42:41

been a ruddy great tournament. Thanks to

42:43

Chanko and our co-hosts, we've had

42:46

Nollie, Lowell, Warbs, Barks, Drico

42:48

and our contributors from the ITV

42:50

team and beyond, Butchie and Co. Chanks

42:52

and I will be reconvening for our own

42:54

pod Flats and Shanks very shortly. So be

42:57

sure to rate, review and subscribe

42:59

to that if you haven't already. I can promise you, there'll

43:01

be loads of chat about meat, probably a bit more chat about barbecues

43:04

and meat on that, a little bit more

43:06

chat about TV box sets. By the way, I'm really

43:08

struggling at the moment, Tommy, but it's been a notre

43:11

plesia and au vois for

43:13

now. Thank you, Tommy.