0:09

It all starts with one idea. Have

0:11

you ever wondered how today's top CEOs,

0:14

business leaders and people who work for

0:16

the most innovative companies in the world

0:18

found success. Join host

0:21

George Davison , as he explores the

0:23

innovators that are shaping tomorrow's world

0:25

today.

0:32

Welcome to another edition of the innovators.

0:35

And today we have a guest. His

0:37

name is Steve Johnson, and

0:40

he is with the Idaho National

0:42

Labs Space Division. And

0:45

wait until you hear this title, he

0:47

is the Director of Space,

0:50

Nuclear Power, and

0:52

Isotope Technologies.

0:54

That's a big title there, Steve.

0:57

It's a very big title, lots of interesting

0:59

work.

1:00

Well, welcome to our show.

1:02

Happy to be here.

1:04

All right, well, I'm going to , I have some questions

1:06

for you today and I hope you'll just share

1:09

everything you can with our audience.

1:11

And , uh, maybe we should start

1:14

with, you know, can you talk a

1:16

little bit about what does Idaho National

1:18

Labs Space Division do?

1:22

We do , uh, power systems

1:24

for NASA in

1:27

remote and hostile environments.

1:30

So a remote hostile environment

1:32

would be we , could you describe

1:35

what that is?

1:35

Let's say on the moon, on Mars,

1:38

cruising by Pluto cruising

1:40

by Saturn, those sorts

1:42

of environments.

1:43

Yes. Now those are pretty harsh environments.

1:46

Yes. So in your division,

1:50

what does the future look like?

1:55

Future looks like lots of different applications

1:59

of nuclear power , uh

2:02

, equipment to

2:04

, uh, help empower

2:06

, um, different , uh,

2:08

space missions, whether it's going to

2:11

Mars for a sample recovery mission.

2:13

Uh , another launch out of the solar system,

2:16

like a lot of people see the Voyager probes.

2:18

Those are out of our solar system. There's

2:20

a mission out there called interstellar probe,

2:23

which is a mission that is going to take them

2:25

50 years to get out there. And they needed

2:27

a power system. That's going to work that long. That's

2:29

the , that's the future.

2:32

Wow. So I imagine these power

2:34

systems that you're talking about, these

2:37

aren't big vehicles, are they?

2:39

No. Uh, everything with NASA

2:41

is very much about how small can you make

2:43

it and how little can you make it weigh?

2:46

Um, that makes sense. Cause

2:48

it's very expensive to shoot things

2:50

up into space,

2:51

Very expensive. And it's all

2:54

about mass and volume.

2:57

So then

2:59

can you talk about what your

3:02

position is responsible for?

3:06

Yes. Uh, when NASA needs

3:08

a power system to help enable a mission

3:11

and they've determined that a nuclear

3:13

powered power system

3:16

is the best way to go. They contacted

3:18

the department of energy and the department of energy

3:20

turns to the Idaho national laboratory

3:23

and its other partner national labs to

3:25

provide that power system. And typically

3:27

we get that sort of call about five

3:29

to six years prior to launch

3:31

date to say , say, and we work

3:34

very hard to make certain, we get the right power

3:36

system to the NASA customer

3:38

in time and that it's going

3:40

to do what they wanted to do.

3:43

All right . So let's, let's walk this back

3:46

a little bit. Steve, how did you

3:48

get started on a course

3:50

in your life to, to be

3:52

, uh , you know, going into this kind

3:54

of work?

3:55

Okay. For me it started very, very early.

3:57

I'm in my late fifties. So I

4:00

grew up in the Apollo era . I was that kid

4:02

that built that two foot tall, Saturn

4:04

five rocket that got

4:06

, uh , a encyclopedia

4:08

set called above and beyond that had all

4:11

that neat NASA stuff and aeronautical

4:13

stuff in it. And I tended to focus

4:16

on, you know, nerdy stuff, science

4:18

and mathematics. So I went through school and

4:20

that was my start. Um, back in the

4:22

late sixties, early seventies graduated

4:26

1980, went into

4:28

chemistry and mathematics

4:32

and uh , later , uh , laser beams

4:34

for doing analysis. But that was my

4:37

start.

4:37

That's very interesting. Um,

4:40

so, but just so , uh,

4:43

yeah, the rocket world that

4:45

when I was in high school, I started a

4:47

club there and that was the rocket

4:49

club and , uh, I,

4:51

it was so exciting. We would all build

4:53

our rockets and then on the weekend we'd

4:55

go out and shoot them off and uh, our

4:58

imaginations would just soar . So

5:00

, uh, yeah, that's, that's interesting.

5:02

Yeah. Having, having things to

5:04

think about or to give you inspiration

5:07

when you're younger to shoot for. Right.

5:10

Absolutely. And you can , uh,

5:12

I'm a firm believer in, you can never

5:14

tell how things are going to finally

5:16

come together later.

5:18

The things that you do earlier in life that

5:21

you think, oh , this is okay for

5:23

a little while, but if you retain that

5:25

knowledge, when you come to what you really

5:27

want to do, it all kind of blends together

5:30

and you never know

5:33

what's going to be at the end of the pathway, you

5:36

always need to remain engaged and

5:38

learn what you can wherever you're you're

5:40

at

5:42

Well said. So

5:45

how important would you say

5:47

innovation is at

5:49

the Idaho national lab space

5:51

division?

5:53

It's very important. Uh, I, when

5:55

I look at the things

5:58

like when we , um, let's

6:02

see you look

6:04

at the, the Mars

6:06

missions from 2002

6:10

spirit and opportunity. And

6:12

when I first looked at the films,

6:15

the films from the, at that time,

6:17

the jet propulsion lab, like, okay, how

6:19

are you going to get this down? I looked at this three

6:21

dimensional triangular thing that was going

6:23

to go down through the atmosphere, bounce around a whole

6:25

lot and pop open. There was a Rover. I was

6:27

like, there's no way that's gonna work. And

6:31

, uh, and we, we made , uh , we

6:33

delivered the heat sources that are on

6:35

spirit and opportunity that worked for many years.

6:39

And we let her follow up with power systems

6:41

for the curiosity Rover

6:43

and the perseverance Rover . And again, I looked at

6:45

that and I'm like, okay, you're coming down

6:47

and you're slowing down from 24,000 miles

6:50

an hour down to like 10

6:52

feet a second. I was like, you're kidding.

6:54

That's not going to work. And you watch the films

6:56

and then you watch the actual landing. I thought,

6:58

wow, what a

7:00

neat thing to be part of

7:04

Very much so, so figuring

7:06

out how to make things like that

7:08

happen is there's

7:10

a lot of innovation and trying to think differently,

7:13

think outside the box.

7:16

Uh, absolutely. You can't,

7:19

you can't apply exactly. The

7:21

only things that, you know, that work on earth

7:23

to something that's going to be on another planet

7:26

or orbiting another planet. You've got

7:28

to think outside the box and

7:30

you got to check it out. Okay .

7:32

Yeah . Isn't that interesting? I never really

7:34

thought of it that way, because everything

7:36

you have to think about out in space has

7:38

to be in like space

7:40

world, right? There's no gravity,

7:43

there's, there's so many unique

7:46

things out there we don't even understand

7:48

yet. And you have to try to envision

7:50

that world and

7:52

come up with products or solutions

7:55

that let you kind of navigate

7:57

it.

7:58

Absolutely the case. And for specifically

8:01

for what we do in Idaho , um,

8:04

our power systems, one,

8:07

there's not a backup on board two

8:10

, once they're on the spacecraft and lodge , there's

8:12

no repairs or anything. Secondly, we

8:15

basically certify them to work for 17

8:18

years. They take 7,

8:21

8, 9 months to get to Mars and

8:23

then they have to work for years and years

8:25

after that. And you think about that. And there's

8:28

some things that we do that are very quality

8:30

driven , uh, little things

8:32

, uh, certify torque, wrenches, all

8:34

these things. And people kind of like, w w why are you

8:36

doing that ? So we're, gristly , it's like, it's gonna

8:38

work for 17 years. And you've had a

8:40

, a $2.5 billion space

8:43

mission that if your part doesn't work, right, it

8:45

doesn't work at all,

8:47

Some high responsibility.

8:49

It is, but it's also pretty cool

8:51

when you get right down

8:53

There is, it is exciting. All

8:56

right . Well, let's, let's keep moving along

8:58

here. Uh, so in your specific

9:01

position, what

9:03

would you say you're responsible

9:05

for directly?

9:08

Okay. When the use

9:11

of nuclear power is first thought

9:14

about they're interested in, what

9:16

can it do? What can't it do?

9:19

Uh, when can you provide it? How much

9:21

is it going to cost those

9:24

sort of basic questions? And as a , in

9:27

my position, I'm that first contact

9:29

with the Idaho national lab. I'm there to say what

9:32

we can do, what we can promise when

9:34

it can be there. And

9:36

, uh , what kind of interaction we can have with

9:38

NASA along the way. That's my job, which

9:40

is to lay out the playing field, make certain, we

9:42

get , uh, the deliverables

9:44

upfront, the schedule, the

9:47

cost profiles, get all the coordination

9:49

done within the , uh, the

9:51

department of energy that I can do in my position.

9:54

And that's , uh, that's why I'm

9:56

there typically every spring

9:59

when NASA does its budget planning, which

10:01

goes out for us , uh, seven years

10:03

, uh, I'm there to provide those,

10:05

those estimates so that people can know

10:08

what's available when they put out a announcement

10:10

of opportunity in AOL for emission . Uh,

10:13

I'll be that last point of contact so that yes,

10:16

we can provide this and

10:18

we will be there. You don't have to worry about

10:21

us. We are going to be a good partner.

10:25

All right . So in order to do that job,

10:27

it sounds like you need quite a few different skillsets

10:30

in order to be able to know, and

10:32

in order to be able to make a recommendation

10:35

of that type, right, that

10:37

you can achieve this kind of an out

10:39

of an , uh , outcome, and

10:42

you do understand what the cost and

10:44

all the parameters are going to be. So

10:47

is it you, do you work with a team?

10:49

How does that function?

10:52

Okay. As far as providing the product, I work

10:54

with other people at Oak Ridge national

10:56

lab in Los Alamos national lab

10:58

that makes certain, we have all the pieces

11:01

and parts as it were along with our,

11:04

our , uh , commercial partner for

11:06

the power system. So we make certain kind of the pieces

11:09

in the parts that our production schedule

11:11

will support that. Uh,

11:13

so that's a coordination job. I muscle

11:15

national technical director for space nuclear

11:18

power for the department of energy. So

11:20

that is something that I know the right people

11:22

to call to get the right information. So that's

11:24

a , that's an important part, as

11:26

far as the costing , uh, I've done the

11:28

costing for over the last decade.

11:31

Uh, that's coordination thing as well, as

11:33

well as making certain, you know,

11:37

all the right people to call in all the right

11:39

partner organizations . So there's lots of little pieces

11:41

and parts, and we've done this , uh,

11:44

for , uh , for space missions now, and we're getting

11:47

ready for , uh , a fifth one , uh , 2020

11:49

launch , uh , dragon fly going

11:51

to Titan . So it's,

11:54

it's , uh , it's knowledge of

11:56

who's who the players are, what they can provide

11:59

the costs , uh, factoring in

12:01

if you need additional margin and

12:04

, uh, knowing who to contact on a Kennedy

12:06

space center for the other pieces and parts

12:08

that fit in later on, I've done that

12:10

a few times now. And so that's , uh

12:13

, that's what I do.

12:14

I sounds like a pretty big team and group of

12:16

people you're pulling together and

12:19

maybe in the world of the education

12:21

side of things, that's project based learning,

12:23

you know, learning how to not only do a

12:25

project, but how to manage a project and

12:27

how to communicate a project to other

12:30

third parties. That's

12:32

a skill set that I know project based

12:35

burnings and learning is doing in school

12:37

because I'm involved with some of that, but it

12:39

sounds like those skillsets transfer

12:42

very nicely into what you're doing.

12:45

So

12:45

They really do , uh , you need to learn

12:48

some of the technical aspects to give

12:50

you that confidence behind the

12:52

project management skills, but it is

12:54

all the same. I mean, it's knowing your

12:57

pieces and parts, how they fit together,

12:59

the sequencing , um,

13:01

knowing the costs, knowing , uh , the

13:04

contingencies you need to incorporate

13:06

in that. And, but in

13:08

the end , um, you know, on the DOE side

13:10

between the three national labs , uh,

13:13

I'm talking about two to 300

13:15

people that contributed to that.

13:18

Um , but you know, that the magic part

13:20

is when you're in that last four months

13:23

and you're down at Kennedy space center and you're down

13:25

there with a hundred people from the jet propulsion

13:28

lab or the applied physics lab who's ever

13:30

managing the mission. And you've got

13:32

a couple, three dozen of your people delivering

13:34

a power system, and you're fitting in with all the

13:37

subcontractors down there at Kennedy. That is the greatest

13:39

group dynamic exercise I've ever

13:41

seen. And it all culminates

13:43

with watching a rocket go off. I mean, that's,

13:46

that's pretty weak .

13:46

Cool. It is really cool. I

13:49

mean, big inspiration , um,

13:51

and to be a part of it, you must be very , um,

13:54

proud of yourself.

13:55

It's just very satisfying, cause

13:58

you're usually at the end of a five to six

14:00

year , um , spin up

14:02

on it. And , uh, when

14:04

you get to that point, it was a little bit more

14:07

interesting. This last launch , uh , the

14:09

July 2020 Mars,

14:11

2020 perseverance Rover. Uh,

14:14

we were all down there and everything of course,

14:17

Coco beach , uh, was deserted.

14:19

Uh, it was during the pandemic. We were down there April

14:22

to July and there was

14:24

nobody down there if you weren't involved with the mission,

14:27

not out and about.

14:29

Well, thank you for your contribution

14:32

to making all this happen. And

14:34

I'm sure somewhere along the way, there

14:36

were others that contributed to you. Did you have

14:38

any mentors when you were, let's say in

14:40

high school or younger or even college

14:43

that helped to start

14:45

you on a course? Okay .

14:47

Uh, several on the way. Um, I'll

14:50

focus maybe on some, in

14:52

the , let's see I had a chemistry teacher

14:54

in , in , uh, in high school, I

14:56

had a couple of years of chemistry through him and he

14:59

was always somebody that was very inspirational,

15:01

you know, hard work and taught me all the

15:04

stuff that he could. And that was a nice

15:06

launching board for college and

15:09

, uh, other people on the way

15:11

, uh , just , uh, just,

15:14

you know, work hard, learn what you learn

15:16

and, you know, don't, don't

15:19

worry about looking too far down the track

15:21

just to , you've got a job, do

15:24

your job well, and good things will happen.

15:26

That was something. When I went to the national lab system,

15:29

had several good mentors , uh,

15:31

they all dated a little bit differently. Um,

15:34

but they were very inspirational and

15:36

, uh , it's fantastic.

15:38

Now, if I can grab somebody who needs

15:40

some , uh , nice mentoring now,

15:42

or need some comments, I've had people come in

15:44

and they're like, okay, I don't know about this or this.

15:46

And I'm like, Hey, just , you know, this is

15:48

where you're at. Where do you want to go? I'm not. So

15:51

I said, well, you're , you're at a pretty good spot.

15:53

You know, work hard, do well. And

15:55

keep your eyes open. If there's something out there

15:58

that can help you with, as far as a direction

16:01

recommendation , uh , I'm here to help you out

16:03

trying to give back a little bit.

16:05

Yes . Yes . Th there are a lot of young people

16:07

kind of wandering out there right now, you

16:09

know, just like we were, we didn't know. I'm

16:11

sure you didn't know that you were going to be in this position

16:14

when you were a youngster. And I didn't know I

16:16

was going to be in this position when I was a youngster,

16:18

but mentors help to

16:20

, you know, give us pointers along

16:22

the way, build some basic , uh,

16:25

hardworking skills, make a commitment, how

16:29

it sounds like you really like what you're doing. So

16:33

was it just a stroke of luck

16:36

that you happened to find that,

16:38

or, you know, how

16:41

did that happen for you? Uh , because

16:43

I think a lot of people that are younger

16:47

really look at people our age

16:49

and say, well, how, how did

16:51

you get there?

16:53

And , uh, if he has some insight

16:56

there, it might, it might help our audience.

16:59

Okay .

17:00

For me, kind of the magic moment was 2002.

17:03

I was managing electronic microscopy

17:05

lab, had a small group of people and

17:08

we're , we're doing good work and working hard. And

17:10

, and finally a DOE came in, they said,

17:13

Hey, you know, we've got this , uh, stuff

17:15

in Ohio that due to the fallout

17:17

from 9/11 , uh,

17:19

we need to move somewhere else. And

17:21

the lab looked around and they said, Hey, you know, you,

17:24

you do something with plutonium two 30. I'm

17:26

like, yeah, I'm a PhD

17:28

chemist. I manage a lab, we analyze samples

17:30

with it. They said , oh, you're it . And

17:33

so we were given three weeks to put

17:35

together a $15 million proposal

17:37

, uh, on how to move a

17:41

medium sized project that needed a new building and

17:43

all this stuff. And I kind

17:45

of walked away from that. And I said, can I go to Ohio

17:47

and look at this? He said, no, no, you can't do that.

17:50

And so I called together a big meeting

17:52

on Monday, and this is Friday.

17:54

I'm sitting there going like, wow, what am I going to tell people?

17:56

So I spent the weekend with

17:59

butcher block, white paper sheets,

18:01

you know, three foot tall sketching

18:03

out stuff. And that was what I conducted the

18:05

meeting with on Monday. And people

18:07

were looking at me. I said, Hey, we need this put

18:09

together, puffed up, shined

18:12

in three weeks, ended up being

18:14

a $15 million proposal that we

18:16

sent out. And I knew all the right

18:18

people to call, but there, you know, some people

18:20

were like, you know, you you've never handled

18:22

something this big, you know, Y you

18:24

know, there was a lot of

18:27

, uh , a lot of , um,

18:29

just suspicion that it was just an exercise.

18:31

And, and , uh, we pushed

18:33

it through. And within three months we

18:36

had the project coming our way. And

18:39

, uh , then I got a whole bunch of learning experiences

18:42

over several years.

18:43

Uh , I'll tell you, I can tell you your experience because

18:46

, um, you said butcher

18:48

block paper, and, you

18:51

know, that's a such a valuable

18:53

asset, right? I mean, it's, for

18:56

all of you out there who don't know what that is. Uh,

18:58

when you go into the butcher shop, you know, that where

19:00

you get your meats and the grocery, there's a very

19:03

big spool white

19:05

paper there, and it's like

19:07

the greatest paper to draw out all

19:09

your ideas. And it just goes on and

19:11

on and on and on. So you can really

19:14

get inspired and just keep going. And

19:16

, uh, so we've, we've used

19:18

plenty of butcher paper over the years around

19:20

here. It was just funny to hear you bring it

19:22

up. So , um,

19:25

all right . So let's say, so you had a science teacher

19:27

who inspired you that's that's wonderful.

19:30

Um, were there any, was how about

19:33

anybody else? I mean, what were the , some

19:35

other things that when you were younger

19:37

, um, that were impactful

19:40

to you in, like , can you go back

19:42

into high school at all? Was there anybody

19:44

there mentor , uh , maybe

19:46

a family member or, you know,

19:49

did you like taking things apart when you

19:51

were younger and figuring out how they worked,

19:53

or did you just kind

19:55

of, how did it happen?

19:58

I was always just really geared towards

20:01

science courses. So I went into

20:02

guidance counselor, high

20:04

school. Uh, I got kinda set

20:06

on that, that avenue where I took

20:09

the biology that couple of years of chemistry,

20:11

the physics, the earth and space science,

20:14

the mathematics, that was just something that really

20:16

resonated with me. Uh,

20:18

but I want to stress. One

20:21

thing, I also had a counselor

20:23

sat me down my senior year. He said, okay, yeah, you've got all

20:25

the neat science stuff and you've taken

20:27

all the math. The school has said, I want

20:29

you to take this course. I said, really? He

20:32

said, yeah. I said that that course has

20:34

a reputation of being the hardest course

20:37

, uh, that nobody goes

20:39

in there unless they're forced to it . He said, yeah, it's called

20:41

English usage. And

20:43

it was the hardcore grammar

20:46

course. I mean, very hardcore. He

20:48

said, I think you're going to college. You're going

20:50

to need this. And

20:52

, uh, and he was right. It,

20:54

it's something I've seen people, engineers

20:57

and scientists I work with now.

20:59

And if they're fresh out of college, it's like,

21:04

what can you say? You, you kind of get English

21:06

is a second language for them. Cause

21:09

it certainly isn't a first and in

21:11

the end you can have these really great ideas,

21:13

but if you can't communicate them in

21:15

writing and verbally to people. So

21:17

speech is also an important thing I learned

21:20

by my first

21:22

year in college, if you can't communicate

21:24

them, you can't write it down. You can't

21:26

talk about it. You're not going to get

21:28

that, that listening to

21:30

that, that audience that you

21:32

need. So those are really important things, no matter

21:35

how smart you are, if you can't communicate

21:37

it , you can't write so that people

21:39

can understand that you're not going to

21:41

come across very well.

21:43

True . Steve, thank you for bringing that up because , um,

21:47

as some of the things that we really focus on around

21:49

here, observational analysis, how

21:52

to write out

21:54

what it is that you're thinking potentially

21:57

how to also sketch it. Because

21:59

if I'm working with you at a brainstorming

22:01

table and I can visualize

22:03

a solution, if I can artistically

22:06

draw it, you may be able to look

22:08

at that and gain insight

22:10

on where I'm going with my mind.

22:13

So how I get an idea

22:15

out of me, to you

22:18

and how you listen. And

22:20

that's a skill, your observational

22:23

skills and your listening skills at the

22:25

brainstorming table are critical. And

22:27

then how you come together and you compose

22:30

a document, or you compose

22:32

a drawing that can then go out and get

22:34

attention or get funding and move

22:37

to the next stage is all critically important

22:39

as a young innovator and an

22:42

, an innovator in their fifties for that matter.

22:44

Right? So basic

22:46

skill sets , but critically

22:48

important, whoever that person was your

22:51

, uh , counselor there who told you about

22:53

English, what a blessing. And

22:55

thank you for passing that along. Cause it doesn't

22:57

come up very often. Uh,

23:00

Yeah. People tend to stress STEM

23:03

a lot, which is , is , is important.

23:05

But the communication angle,

23:08

I did another professor , um , my

23:10

first year in college

23:12

and it was at the end of the year and he was

23:14

heading off to a bigger university

23:17

and he said, so what did he , he said, know

23:19

, I like you. You're doing well in chemistry. He said

23:21

, uh, are you thinking about going to graduate

23:24

school? I'm like, yeah, I'm 18 years old.

23:26

That's a long ways down the road. But maybe he

23:28

said , let me tell you something. He said, you

23:30

know, if you get that PhD,

23:32

he said , uh , you're not guaranteed

23:35

of anything. But he said, think of it as a

23:37

invitation to a party. He said,

23:39

it gets in the door. He said, once you're in

23:41

the door, what happens is

23:43

up to you. But he said, it is the invitation

23:46

to get into the party. He said,

23:48

and then if you've got ideas,

23:51

you've got an opportunity to sell those ideas

23:53

to people. Uh, and , and

23:55

you , you never know what happens in , but he said,

23:57

you need the invitation into the party.

24:00

Well said now more

24:02

wisdom from mentors, right? Yes.

24:05

I'm glad you're passing that along. Any

24:07

other , uh , and any other things

24:09

popping in your mind right now that you think would

24:11

be good to share with them?

24:14

I come from Eastern Idaho now, Blackfoot,

24:16

Idaho, which is known as being the Spud

24:19

capital of the United States. Okay. A

24:21

lot of people are just totally bewildered,

24:24

even people in Idaho. When I say, Hey, we

24:26

make power systems for NASA and

24:29

they're just dumbfounded, but

24:32

you can do great things and

24:34

contribute to really spectacular

24:36

missions. If you just work

24:38

hard and keep

24:40

your future in front of you,

24:42

So how do I start? I want to do that.

24:44

So what would, what would be your first recommendation?

24:47

Steve?

24:49

Uh , STEM as important communications

24:51

are important. I have , uh

24:53

, 50 people in my division. We're supported

24:55

by others. We have people that do hands-on

24:57

work, people that do quality assurance.

24:59

We have engineers, we have training

25:01

people that contribute to our work, lots

25:04

of different pathways to that successful

25:07

thing. I have job openings right now

25:09

that we're recruiting for a

25:12

hint to people that when you go into a job

25:15

interview, spend five minutes

25:17

on Google type in the

25:19

name of the division, the name of the

25:21

job pull stuff up . I'm always amazed.

25:23

When I sit down to interview people and we

25:26

get a little bit of press coverage doing what

25:28

I do. And I say , so why

25:30

do you want a job here? And they're like,

25:32

I don't know. I just need a job. I'm like, wow,

25:34

you spent zero time on Google, figuring

25:36

out what we did. And that works

25:38

for anything. Any job interview, you go

25:41

into figure out what it is and

25:43

try to try to make yourself interesting

25:45

to that employer. Yeah .

25:46

Yes. Yeah. That's well

25:48

said again. Cause we, we do, when

25:50

we do technology development, it's

25:53

you can do technology development in a bubble

25:56

or you can try to integrate it into

25:58

an organization structure. And that's

26:00

one of the things we've learned to do. We refer

26:02

to it as an integration or in innovation

26:05

integration. However you want to

26:07

say it, but basically it means

26:09

don't create or

26:11

invent. And Ababil where

26:13

you don't know where your outcome, I

26:16

need partners. I need to integrate into a

26:18

certain system. So if I'm going to go in

26:20

for an interview , um, and

26:22

all organizations need fresh

26:25

young talent coming up , uh, uh,

26:28

in their organization. So yeah, I

26:30

mean learning about that organization

26:32

a little makes sense to me and I, I'm

26:35

kind of shocked that people don't know

26:37

that. So do know that do

26:40

your research, if it's something that you really,

26:42

really want to do , um,

26:45

what can you learn about that organization

26:47

or the people that are there so that you can start

26:49

to talk their language so

26:51

to speak during the interview process,

26:54

right? Absolutely. Yeah. All

26:56

right . So , um, let's see here, let's

27:01

go back in time for a moment. And

27:04

, uh, if you could do one thing over again

27:07

in your high school, in your high school

27:09

days, what would it be and

27:11

why?

27:16

I might've taken less science and

27:18

math and just explored other

27:20

things, fun things, electives,

27:23

and that's something I would have carried forward

27:26

and into college, I went

27:28

through college in four years. I double majored

27:30

in chemistry and mathematics. So I

27:32

had two electives in four years and

27:35

just explore , uh , reach

27:37

out there, do those fun things, because

27:40

at the end you never know how those things are all going

27:42

to fit together at the end, but

27:44

, uh , reach out. I would do things

27:46

like , um, I

27:49

would have spent more time learning how to communicate well,

27:51

that was something I learned later in life.

27:54

And I was kind of that typical nerd that

27:56

didn't know how to do that very well. And so

27:58

some communication courses

28:00

at the national lab and those sorts of things,

28:02

but do those things earlier in life, give those

28:04

public , uh, talks

28:06

, uh, doesn't matter whether it's about

28:09

raising animals or , uh,

28:12

you know , uh, whatever

28:14

, uh, rebuilding furniture, which is something

28:16

I learned later in life, or just

28:18

any of those sorts of things reach out and broaden

28:21

yourself. You will that'll

28:23

serve you well, well ,

28:24

Sure . More balanced. So I, as

28:27

what I'm taking away there , the , um,

28:31

so one of the things that our audience should understand

28:33

is that my interpretation

28:36

of Steve , uh, right now is

28:38

that you're very technology oriented,

28:40

very math, very science,

28:42

very physics. Uh,

28:45

you've heard him say nerd,

28:47

right? And I think that the there's,

28:50

so if you're one of those kinds of people

28:52

out there in this audience right now

28:54

, um, you should be able to take a

28:56

take away from that because we talk

28:59

a lot about stem and steam

29:01

, um, in this, in our discussions,

29:04

but the sense of balance for

29:06

somebody that is really, really,

29:09

really drawn in by science

29:11

and math, I think it's important

29:13

to hear your message, to broaden

29:15

it out a little bit, pick up those

29:17

communication skills, those writing skills,

29:20

and in other things finds a few

29:22

other variable interests that may

29:24

fall outside your space so

29:27

that you can learn from those

29:29

directions as well. Right?

29:31

Absolutely. The case I've had the

29:33

pleasure of being able to travel internationally,

29:36

to support the department of energy, to , uh,

29:39

England, to France, a couple of , to

29:41

Russia, to Korea , uh,

29:44

and , uh, amazingly

29:46

for me, I use long, long

29:49

flights like that to within

29:52

reason, take up conversation

29:54

with my seat mates to help my

29:56

, uh , small, you know, my

29:59

, uh, just my,

30:01

my chit chat and so forth and

30:03

try to , uh, broad myself out

30:05

a little bit. Uh , don't want to be that bore

30:07

at the party over in the corner and

30:10

, uh , just learn those different things. And

30:12

you'd be amazing at the , uh , discussions

30:14

you can have inside airports with people that

30:17

English is definitely a second language, but they

30:19

want to talk to you about , uh, you

30:21

know, world war two or something like that from an

30:23

entirely different perspective. It's nice

30:25

to have , uh , informal , you know, some

30:28

body of knowledge that you can draw

30:30

on to at least get involved in those slips of discussion

30:33

, learned a lot of different perspectives that

30:35

way.

30:35

Yes. Yeah. I I'm

30:37

really happy that you've brought it up

30:40

and that you're really making this

30:42

a big part of our story today because

30:44

a lot of folks that are really in their

30:46

mind, a lot working on serious challenges

30:49

and serious problems, they

30:51

do tend to be more inward

30:53

and non-communicative, and

30:57

we need the communication. We

30:59

need to understand , um,

31:01

you know, if, if your mind

31:03

is working in real deep, on

31:05

real deep challenges, there's

31:08

real value to communicating that to others.

31:11

Uh, you can ignite other people's imaginations

31:13

to join that, that other

31:16

kind of party out there, that nerd party,

31:18

right. Um, because there is, or there's

31:20

another form of communication there, which is

31:22

really exciting , um, solving

31:24

the challenges of the future. And , uh

31:27

, so good point. I'm

31:29

glad you , I'm glad you're bringing it up. And

31:31

, uh , you know, I think you're, you're speaking

31:33

today , uh , you know, you've really worked on this.

31:36

If it was a big challenge for you, I think you've accomplished

31:38

your mission and got over that one.

31:40

You can always improve.

31:42

Well done. Um , all right

31:44

, so let's take a peek here. Let's keep going. Uh,

31:48

let's see, we talked about the stem

31:51

classes, but , uh, or

31:53

the, the importance of stem and some other

31:55

things going on there, but

31:57

how important would you say

32:00

it is for a student to get hands

32:03

on experience, to build a skills

32:05

they might need in their adult lives,

32:09

like actually get your hands dirty

32:11

and get that hands-on experience?

32:15

I think that's very important. It's something

32:17

I try even , uh , even

32:19

today, later in life. Um, when

32:21

we took over a portion

32:23

of the space program, 2002

32:25

, uh, I was facing tremendous

32:28

challenges. I needed to move

32:30

, um, 28 tractor

32:32

trailer, loads of equipment out of Ohio.

32:35

In nine months, we need to design a building.

32:38

We ended up building a building in the middle

32:40

of winter in Idaho. Uh,

32:42

I spent , um , for nine months, I spent

32:44

one to two weeks a year back

32:47

in Ohio now because I need to lo

32:49

know how to build plywood boxes

32:51

and move equipment around. But I needed an

32:54

eight people on the ground there. I needed to get to know

32:56

them. He didn't make certain that they knew

32:58

that they could pick up the phone and get

33:00

the support that they needed. And

33:02

, uh, to learn those things, I needed to

33:04

know how difficult it was to get

33:06

a timely , uh, trailers

33:09

dropped off, filled up. So I was, you

33:11

know, so I could be out there in the ground when guy

33:13

came over, he said , uh , yeah,

33:16

they're going to pick up the trailer. And I kind of gave us one. I said,

33:18

whoa, okay, well , that's not going to work.

33:20

We get another load ready to go. He

33:23

walked me over that the truck driver

33:25

gave me a phone. His boss was on there. He said,

33:27

this company misappropriated

33:29

this trailer from me three

33:32

months ago and I'm not giving them another

33:34

one. And

33:36

I was like, oh, okay. Um,

33:38

so we had a discussion for about five minutes.

33:40

I said, okay, I don't have anything to do with

33:43

what this corporation national

33:45

corporation did to you, but I really have

33:47

this need. And so I talked to him about

33:49

that need for three or four minutes. And he

33:52

said, okay, hand the phone back to the driver. So

33:54

he handed it back to the driver and, and

33:56

within five minutes he had arranged for

33:59

another empty trailer to be delivered because

34:01

I was just sitting there talking with him and I

34:03

really had a need. And I'm like, you know, I,

34:06

I know you're upset with this other corporation,

34:09

but , uh, you know, w you

34:11

and I need to work together on this. So those sorts

34:13

of things, I needed to jump into

34:15

learn that sort of stuff. Uh, uh,

34:18

I learned that , uh, trucks

34:20

hold so many thousand pounds east of the Mississippi

34:23

and can hold more west of the Mississippi,

34:25

all those things that you've never thought you needed

34:28

to know coming out of graduate school. Um,

34:31

those were things that I needed to jump in. So at least

34:33

while I was talking to people, when there was , uh , a

34:35

delay or something, I say, Hey, you know, this

34:37

is, this is what's going on. They're like , oh , okay,

34:39

you're following this. I'm like, yeah. And

34:42

, uh , so those sorts of things, I typically try to

34:44

do that some people will work for

34:46

me are like, why are you still around here?

34:48

I'm like, I'll be how to here . Once I understand

34:51

the process and understand how to help

34:53

you. And so that's something that I've applied

34:55

through the years. And , uh , you

34:58

know, when I was wandering round and we were

35:00

pouring our first wall and the end of

35:02

January of 2004, so

35:05

we're, we're, it's a 40 foot wall because that's

35:07

the distance between construction joints and

35:09

it's 15 foot tall, and we've got a

35:12

water lines with warmer ethylene

35:14

glycol, and we've got hydraulic thumpers

35:17

and we're doing it at six degrees outside.

35:19

And , uh , I'm calling my project

35:22

manager from the airport and

35:24

I said, how's it going? He's like, well, let's go on well. Well,

35:26

okay. He said, the

35:28

hydraulic lines actually froze. And

35:31

that's how, but he said, don't worry about it. He

35:33

said, we've got this. And he

35:35

said, I've got a line of concrete trucks. We're

35:37

doing the QA on the concrete and you

35:39

just don't worry about it. And

35:41

, uh, so that was, I had six months

35:43

of that. And , uh, having

35:46

to call DOE headquarters while I'm standing

35:48

on the roof of a building, it's partially

35:50

constructed to describe how it's going. Those

35:52

are the sorts of things that I got to

35:54

learn about for six months. I always thought

35:57

that was great. A little harrowing

35:59

at times in terms of not personal safety,

36:02

but just in terms of, wow, this

36:04

is a scout to be together here in not

36:06

much time. And

36:08

, uh, from a communication

36:10

point of view, about February of 2004,

36:14

the program executive from the Pluto

36:16

new horizons mission came by and

36:18

our power system was, due a little bit

36:21

over a year from them, July

36:23

2005 down Florida. And I'm wandering

36:25

around this building side , and he's looking at a slab

36:27

of concrete with a couple of three walls up. I

36:30

said, don't worry. I said, it'll be done this

36:32

summer. I'll staff it this fall,

36:34

we'll train, we'll do all this. And

36:37

, uh, about , uh, three years later,

36:40

when he was presenting my group

36:42

with a NASA national group

36:44

award for producing the power system, he

36:46

said, yeah, you wanted it to be around

36:48

there in February of oh four. So I went

36:50

away from there. He said, I colored you red on

36:52

our schedule. I kept you read all the way through lunch.

36:55

So I just thought you should know that

36:57

,

36:58

Uh , coloring you read. I mean, I

37:00

think that means that he didn't have confidence

37:02

in your , uh , getting it done. Absolutely.

37:06

Okay.

37:07

So, but , uh, he and the project

37:09

manager , uh, Glen fountains in the applied

37:12

research lab , uh, pipe physics lab

37:14

at Johns Hopkins, both flew out

37:16

to give us the award. They said, you pulled

37:18

it off.

37:19

Well done. Well done. And that's a

37:21

great lesson to pass along, right?

37:24

It's you, can, you, you

37:26

got engaged. You learned

37:28

about the details of how this construction

37:30

had to be, to have the

37:33

building a certain way. So when a mission

37:35

could be accomplished later in , later on,

37:38

you didn't want to leave the details to somebody else

37:40

you had , and that puts you in a better

37:42

position, because once you understand,

37:45

then as things are coming

37:48

together, you understand

37:50

what's possible and what's not possible.

37:53

And therefore you can push a timeline.

37:56

You can push your teammates, know

37:58

where the human being is going to get too

38:00

tired, or, you know , they're going to make

38:02

mistakes. Versus I was just, there's so

38:04

many variables that come into these kinds of projects,

38:08

but by getting your hands dirty and

38:11

by doing it and getting into the

38:13

grimy details, nothing

38:15

escapes you. So you're able to push

38:18

and have confidence in where you're trying to go.

38:20

I I've done that myself

38:23

numerous times. And when I look back

38:25

on this, I think it goes

38:27

back in time. I'm not going to go all the way back

38:29

to my high school days and even middle

38:31

school days. And I, I don't know if it was

38:33

the same for you, but for, I always

38:35

had a lot of chores and, you

38:38

know, I didn't know much about

38:40

how to maintain a house, but I can,

38:43

I, I I'll tell you right now, I can do

38:45

it very well. And I can, I know how

38:47

to do it properly and with a certain amount

38:49

of time and what are the best resources to , you

38:52

know, make that mission happen, et cetera, et cetera,

38:54

et cetera. But those were basic

38:56

tour skills that

38:58

I learned in order to

39:00

, um, function in my

39:02

home as a young person. Did you do chores?

39:05

Did you have chores as a young person by chance? Yes.

39:08

So your parents were tough on chores,

39:11

is that right?

39:13

Yeah. I think that's a fair assessment. Yeah.

39:15

I , um, for me it was,

39:17

you better do the chores and I'm

39:19

going to show you how to do these tours

39:22

and you're going to do them right. And

39:25

every day when work was done

39:28

and it was before dinner, the chores

39:30

were inspected. So I learned, you're

39:32

not only going to do those chores, you're going

39:34

to do a good job. And if you don't after

39:37

dinner, you're going to go do them again. So

39:39

you learn anyway, I learned to do, do the

39:41

chores build skills and

39:44

, um, and to do them writer, unfortunately,

39:48

that's reality. You do have to do it again,

39:51

and I've transferred that all the way through my

39:53

business life as well. Um,

39:57

did you have any other responsible

39:59

activities that you, I mean, when I say

40:01

that I don't want to sound condescending

40:03

and I think maybe the way I said, that's the wrong way when

40:06

we're younger, we're given

40:08

, uh , chores or responsibilities.

40:10

Were there any other things that you were , um,

40:13

told to do that you really

40:16

maybe didn't want to do, but you did, and

40:18

it helped to build a very basic

40:20

basic skillset ?

40:23

Uh, no, I'll take that direction a little bit different

40:25

or take that question in a little bit different

40:27

direction. Um, so

40:30

there were four of us, myself , and

40:32

, uh, three sisters. Um,

40:35

I was the only one that went to college. And

40:38

so for me, and, and self-funded

40:40

for the latter part, but I went to college for

40:42

10 years and that was something

40:44

that was tough for me. I won't

40:47

say there wasn't support at home, but there was just

40:49

, uh , just

40:51

a really , um, wasn't something

40:53

they were used to in the last six

40:55

years, I went 12 months a year and

40:57

so forth. And they're like, okay, what's, you

40:59

know, what's, what is this? And

41:02

so for me, that was it, you know, it was pretty

41:04

much all me cause they were like, well, yeah, you can

41:06

come home if you want to, you know, your bedroom still

41:08

there, but like, no, I wanted to go

41:10

out and, and , and do

41:12

that hard push and try to make something

41:14

of myself and go forward. So that was not

41:17

quite a chore, but it was a bit

41:19

of a , a re responsibility

41:21

challenge for me. And I was

41:23

, uh , you know, more than a days , drought

41:26

, uh, travel away from home and

41:28

stayed there and, and , uh, pushed

41:31

through. And , uh, my first couple of three

41:33

in graduate school , um , my

41:35

experiments didn't go the way I wanted to.

41:37

And after three years I was like, okay, I'm

41:39

, I'm not smart enough for this. And I

41:42

sat down with one of my mentors, my, my

41:45

advisor and talked to me for

41:47

like three hours on a Saturday. And

41:49

he just, he was coming in to work. And I said,

41:51

yeah, I'm out of here. This is just

41:54

not working out. And at the

41:56

end of that, he said, okay, I want to move you on to a different

41:58

project. He said, you're one of my best students,

42:00

just give me another year. And

42:03

at the end of that time , uh, I

42:05

completed a couple of things, had a couple of

42:07

publications out. And then

42:09

a year later, when I eventually

42:12

left graduate school, I had 8 publications

42:14

and the world looked entirely different.

42:16

And I was very thankful for that guy

42:19

pulling me back from the edge. Very nice

42:21

.

42:22

Oh, of course. A little course correction along the way, huh?

42:24

Yes. And as there's a nice to get

42:26

, oh , I'm glad that they

42:28

I'm glad he did that. Or we wouldn't

42:30

be having this chat today. So , um,

42:33

let's see here. So

42:35

let's chat a little bit about people in general.

42:39

Um, cause we have a lot of audience

42:41

out there and they're probably wondering

42:43

, um, will they achieve something in

42:45

life? So do you believe anybody

42:48

can be successful?

42:51

Yes, I do. Um,

42:55

you need to take a , you know, if you're just sitting

42:57

there and you don't know where you're going, think about what

42:59

you enjoy doing and

43:02

don't be concerned about how much money

43:04

you can make doing it. Think about something you

43:06

truly enjoy doing just

43:08

for doing it. And

43:10

once you've picked those one or two

43:12

or three, four things, and maybe it's just one

43:14

or two, take a look at

43:16

it and talk to people in that field. See

43:19

what you can do that , uh

43:21

, maybe you can make money doing it. Um,

43:24

okay. Again, trying to enhance my

43:26

small talk capabilities on

43:28

an airplane. I sat next to this guy and he was

43:30

there with, I don't know , ripped out jeans

43:32

and everything. And I was flying

43:34

from salt lake city to Glenn

43:37

research center in Cleveland. And he was going to

43:39

Cleveland and any sitting

43:41

there , uh, having,

43:43

having some cocktails and, and

43:45

he was probably about 30 years

43:47

old. And I said, so , uh, what do you do? He said , uh,

43:51

yeah, he said, I do pyrotechnics. I'm

43:53

like, really? I said , uh,

43:57

is that it's that good to you? He said, well,

43:59

he said, I'm going into Cleveland. And

44:02

he said, I'm doing this. And I just stared at

44:04

him. And he said, yeah, a lot of the young guys,

44:06

they go to school, they get all these degrees, they

44:08

learn about chemicals. He said, but

44:11

if they come and they intern with me, he said within

44:13

about one year I can get them to

44:15

a skill level where they're making six figures. And

44:19

now this is the lead pyrotechnic guy for

44:21

Beyonce and Jay Z. And he was

44:23

flying in for them to do their big shows

44:25

in Cleveland a few years back. And

44:28

I thought, okay, this guy, he, you know,

44:30

he's got it going on. He had just come

44:32

back from LA visiting his family, his

44:34

wife. And, you know, he looked

44:36

like somebody that was itinerate, whatever.

44:39

But , uh , no, he's like, no, he

44:41

said, I can show you how to do the big pyrotechnics.

44:43

I can do this. And I'm like, Hey, you're working for

44:46

Beyonce and Jay Z. I'm like, yeah,

44:48

you're probably doing pretty. Okay. And

44:51

, uh, but that was somebody who figured

44:53

out what they wanted to do. He didn't have a college

44:55

degree in anything. He just picked it

44:57

up by having somebody teach him something

45:00

and kept working on it. And

45:02

he was at the top of his game. I thought that was pretty

45:04

neat.

45:05

Would you like to tell our audience? Cause some of them may

45:07

be pretty young what pyrotechnics are.

45:09

Cause they're probably intrigued now.

45:12

Okay. Uh , yeah, the layman's

45:14

word for fireworks.

45:17

Okay. All that bright sparkly stuff you see

45:19

at the Superbowl halftime show

45:21

or any of the big things from

45:24

big cities, Las Vegas, New

45:26

York on the 4th of July. Yeah.

45:29

That, that was something that he

45:31

really liked had the right intern,

45:33

no college degree learned it

45:35

and was running a big crew and

45:38

making a whole lot of money doing it. So again, pick

45:40

something that you like to do, focus

45:43

on it, talk to people in the field.

45:45

You can probably figure out a way to make a living doing

45:47

it. Maybe better than make a living .

45:50

Stephen, that's great advice. Thanks for another,

45:52

another, a good bit of information.

45:55

I think if you're lucky

45:58

enough to find what you like, you

46:00

know, it's not work, is it? It's like it's

46:02

intriguing and you want to go do it. You

46:04

want to jump out of bed in the morning and go

46:07

get started with what you're doing. I

46:09

think some of the challenges finding

46:11

what you like.

46:13

Uh, absolutely. But I I've had other

46:15

people on the way other mentors tell me,

46:17

they said, yeah. They said, ah

46:19

, okay. Yeah, you got degrees in this. Figure

46:21

out what you like to do because they said, at some point

46:25

you , you may have that tough stretch where

46:27

you're not making a lot of money, whatever else.

46:29

And he said, if you're doing what you'd like

46:31

to do, he said, you're getting through those tough stretches.

46:34

But if you're doing something that you were only doing,

46:36

because you can make a lot of money at one

46:38

point in time and all of a sudden that's dried up or

46:40

changed, then you, you, you don't

46:42

have a whole lot , uh, to , uh,

46:45

keep you going during the day.

46:47

Yes. Well said. All

46:49

right. So let's shift back for a minute. We're

46:52

going to go back to the nuclear energy, the

46:54

nuclear area for a minute. Um,

46:56

what do you think the next big

46:59

innovation will be in

47:01

the nuclear industry and

47:03

how can students today

47:06

prepare for that innovation in the

47:08

future?

47:11

Okay. So from my background, we also

47:13

do developmental work in application

47:16

of nuclear reactors for space. If

47:18

we ever want to get men to Mars

47:20

and get them back again, we're going to need

47:23

a propulsion systems that are nuclear

47:25

base to get there. And

47:27

that work is, has been ongoing

47:30

for several years, but still still

47:33

is in its infancy. Uh , that's

47:35

a neat field to work on. Or if we want

47:37

to get men to have a colony on the moon,

47:39

they're gonna need power. Solar. Won't

47:41

do it. Um, half the time

47:44

you're at the moon, you're in the dark , uh,

47:46

14 days at a time. So

47:49

having a nuclear

47:51

power plant on the moon would be truly neat.

47:53

Those are things that are, are

47:55

out there. They're under development. They're

47:58

10, 15 years off, plenty

48:01

of opportunity for somebody to jump in

48:03

there and , uh, and make a mark

48:06

and learn something pretty neat and , uh,

48:09

really contribute to that. So that that's

48:11

that's I think is a hot area. There are several

48:13

, uh , areas where DAS is currently

48:16

spending millions, tens of millions

48:18

of dollars per year in , and they,

48:20

and NASA spends it with within

48:22

NASA, within universities, within

48:25

private companies, lots of different venues

48:27

that you can contribute to that. That's what

48:29

I think is a important avenue

48:32

going forward for nuclear power,

48:34

Nuclear power on the moon. That sounds

48:37

so exciting. I , I

48:39

wish I was 12 years old. Again,

48:42

I'd probably start, you know, that would really make my

48:44

imagination soar . So let's,

48:46

let's say I am 12. And I, I

48:49

imagine , um, in order to even

48:51

begin to dream in that space, I better be,

48:53

you know , I better do my math homework.

48:55

I better, you know , be focusing on

48:57

some of the, what would you say are

49:00

some of the basic courses a young person

49:02

should know about ?

49:04

Again, math is good. Um,

49:06

chemistry, biology, physics,

49:10

earth and space science people.

49:13

I mean, Roland , the questions that came up recently,

49:16

that things probably nobody ever thinks

49:18

about, okay, if you're going to have a man

49:20

colony on Mars, what's it going to

49:22

be constructed of? Okay.

49:25

So people are trying, they

49:27

are trying to get samples back from Mars,

49:30

because if you're going to go to Mars, I

49:32

don't think we're going to be hauling bags here

49:35

in Portland, cement up there and then a

49:37

whole bunch of water. So they're trying to take

49:39

a look at the regular, the soil of

49:41

Mars and figure out what's it made

49:43

of and what can we add

49:45

to it to essentially make a

49:48

marsh and concrete? And

49:50

although people may go, yeah, it's like, okay,

49:52

so what have you got on Mars? Uh,

49:55

you know, you you've got the Regulus , what

49:57

was the other part? So they're , they're using different

49:59

forms of , uh, of urine to

50:02

try to be that liquid that they use to

50:05

, uh , make concrete. So they can actually

50:07

build things on Mars, because again

50:09

, uh , mass

50:11

is everything and you're not going to be hauling

50:13

steel girders up there or slabs of

50:16

pre-formed concrete. You need a way of

50:18

making a permanent structure

50:21

once you're there. And

50:22

Water's very heavy. So we don't want to

50:24

have to blast that up into space. So urine

50:26

makes sense.

50:27

Yeah. So it's , uh , you know, those

50:30

are different aspects. There's

50:32

lots of different aspects. If your

50:34

, uh, if you're focusing on biology

50:37

, uh, they're, they're looking at the different things

50:39

that have lived on Mars in the past.

50:41

So you don't have to be

50:43

a rocket scientist to be involved with space

50:45

stuff. Just have a take

50:48

home message. There. There's lots of different angles.

50:50

You need a way of , uh, if you can think of

50:52

a more efficient way of splitting,

50:54

say frozen water, you may find on

50:56

the moon or Mars to get oxygen

50:58

hydrogen. That's a fuel. The other

51:01

, you know, that's another different angle , lots

51:03

of different angles that you can apply

51:06

up to something that NASA

51:08

is going to do on Mars or on the moon.

51:12

All right. Let's,

51:14

let's , uh, take another turn here and

51:17

imagine for a minute that we have , um,

51:20

education leaders who are guiding

51:23

, um, K-12 in our country

51:26

and they're sitting here with us. What

51:30

do you think some of your recommendations

51:33

to them would be to

51:35

help prepare our students for the future?

51:43

I would say just open up activities

51:47

and maybe, you know, being , uh

51:49

, as , uh , more of a space oriented.

51:51

Okay . Take an activity. Like I don't

51:53

care, mission to Pluto man,

51:56

to the moon and really step backwards,

51:59

take a look at all. The people, take a look

52:01

at those people's qualifications,

52:03

what they did in their earlier life, so

52:05

that people can relate and say, oh yeah,

52:07

everybody knows Neil Armstrong went to

52:09

the mill . Great. Well, back

52:11

up the calendar on a

52:13

Neil Armstrong or any

52:16

of the other great people, or even

52:18

more modern day more contemporary people

52:20

just say, Hey, this is where they started out

52:22

life. You know, they , they were just like

52:24

you, they were just like me.

52:26

They had humble beginnings. Uh,

52:29

they, they built on those

52:31

beginnings to

52:34

be those great people that we all know today

52:36

so that people can relate and say,

52:39

oh, Hey, he was just a normal guy.

52:41

Or she was just a normal gal. And

52:44

this is how they got to where they are. I

52:46

think that would be an interesting case study.

52:49

I think you're right. And that's a really

52:52

, um, that could create a great

52:54

conversation because you're dealing

52:56

with not theory or dealing with an actual

52:58

person who went through a series of events.

53:02

And , um, because I

53:04

really think they need that kind of guidance.

53:06

We're moving from theory and

53:08

possibilities over to actual

53:10

steps that were taken. And somewhere

53:13

in between that we might find some innovative way

53:15

to , uh, get some courses out

53:17

to the kids to move them into , um,

53:21

let's say an innovative education

53:23

that might change our future.

53:25

Yeah. I think people

53:27

might really be surprised at the backgrounds

53:29

of a whole lot of people. I mean, they look at a finished

53:32

product that's 40,

53:34

50, 60 years old and has had a distinguished

53:36

career. And they have no idea that 40 years

53:38

before that, that person may have been flipping

53:41

hay bales in Northern Michigan and, and

53:44

, uh, doing other mundane

53:46

things like that.

53:49

Steve, I can't thank you for sharing your wisdom

53:51

with us today. Thank you for coming

53:53

out.

53:54

Thank you for having me

53:56

For more information about the innovations

53:58

and ideas changing tomorrow's world,

54:00

tune into Tomorrow's World Today now

54:03

streaming on Science and Discovery,

54:06

or visit omorrow's world today.

54:08

Dot com

54:21

[inaudible] .