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No judgment. Hello,

1:54

and thank you for listening to

1:57

the history of World War II

1:59

podcast. Episode 467,

2:02

interview with Damian Lewis about his book,

2:05

Churchill's Secret Warriors, the explosive

2:07

true story of the special

2:09

forces desperados of World War

2:11

II. And of course, the

2:13

recently released movie based on it. The

2:16

British have been suffering defeat after

2:18

defeat, but worst of all, US

2:20

supplies that are keeping the island

2:22

nation fed are being sunk

2:24

by Hitler's U-boats. Finally, a

2:27

chink in the Nazi armor has been

2:29

found, and Churchill, the very

2:31

definition of thinking outside the box, comes

2:33

up with a clever plan. Of

2:36

course, if whoever goes on this mission is

2:38

caught, it will mean certain

2:40

death for them, as London will

2:42

claim no responsibility. Mr.

2:44

Lewis, thank you for coming on the

2:46

show yet again. Yeah, no, great

2:49

to be back with you. Always a pleasure. Thank

2:51

you. I appreciate that so much. I think this is your

2:53

second or third time on the show,

2:55

so you win. Anyway,

2:58

so I've seen the movie, loved it.

3:00

I saw it twice. And if I

3:02

could, let me just give a couple

3:04

of impressions, the first impressions of the

3:06

movie. One, this was definitely a Guy

3:08

Ritchie film. There was a lot of

3:10

action. There's moments of humor, moments

3:13

of suspense. In fact, it looked

3:15

like they were having almost too good of a time at

3:17

times, and I almost wanted to be there. Almost.

3:20

The next, and I'm sure you've heard

3:22

this before, is Miss Gonzalez came

3:25

this close, and my fingers are

3:27

almost touching, to stealing this movie

3:29

away from everybody. She had

3:31

such a presence on the film.

3:33

It was so amazing. And

3:35

the last thing I learned was, never

3:37

let Henry Cavill near your best cigars

3:40

or drinks cabinet. I absolutely love that

3:42

scene when he's taking things he should

3:44

not be taking. Yeah,

3:47

it's absolutely fabulous. Yeah, that's a very good summation.

3:51

And you're right. Miss

3:54

Gonzalez really is a show

3:56

stealer, and she's definitely very much in

3:58

the movie. with you all. Yeah,

4:01

I mean, yeah, she's pretty and all this

4:03

stuff, but just her presence, it was really

4:05

amazing. So, so I guess my first question

4:07

is, why haven't we actually heard much

4:10

or anything at all, I guess,

4:12

about Operation Postmaster before, because it

4:14

is a great story. Yeah, no,

4:16

you're right. Just going back

4:18

to Gonzalo, just for a second. When, when

4:24

I was at the premiere, there was in

4:26

New York, there was a, you know, an after-premia

4:28

party, and I went up to her and I

4:30

gave her a coin. So

4:32

a coin from the Special Forces Club

4:34

in London, the club that

4:37

was formed in World War

4:39

Two, for people who were

4:41

in the Specials Operations Executive, the Ministry for Ungenerably

4:43

Warfare, and I gave her a coin, you know,

4:45

to say, look,

4:47

you know, with appreciation for, for

4:50

your performance in the movie. And she was very touched.

4:52

And she said, you know, she said,

4:54

I studied really, really in

4:57

depth what these brave women were like, these

4:59

women who went into, you know, deep behind

5:01

enemy lines, you know, with nothing, but

5:03

their nerve and their audacity to protect them. She

5:05

said, you know, I really felt

5:07

this role, you know, in my heart,

5:09

and I'm so glad that I managed to

5:11

bring it live on the screen. And I felt that was

5:13

really, you know, really genuine of her. So, you know, I

5:15

commend her for her performance. And on

5:18

to the question of why Postmaster is

5:21

a little known operation. It's

5:23

largely due to secrecy. So

5:26

Postmaster was one

5:29

of the most, if not the most, sensitive

5:32

and risk laden operations carried out

5:34

by the Allies in the war,

5:36

covert operations. The risk being

5:39

that it was a raid on

5:41

the harbour of a neutral nation, Spain.

5:44

Right. Spain already had fascist leanings, as

5:46

we all know. So, you know, Nazi

5:49

Germany had intervened

5:51

in the Spanish Civil War on

5:53

the side of the fascists. So, you

5:56

know, the relations are already close between

5:58

Madrid and Berlin. So anything

6:01

that might provoke Spain joining the Nazis

6:03

in the war had to be avoided.

6:07

And this operation of any was the

6:09

most provocative you could imagine because it

6:11

was a raid in a harbour which

6:14

was Spanish territory. So a

6:16

neutral harbour, so it's breaking all the rules

6:18

of war. So obviously if it was found

6:20

out to be a British raid, then Spain

6:23

would have been provoked into

6:25

joining the war. It had no option. It

6:27

closed the Mediterranean to British ships and allied shipping

6:29

and it would have been disastrous. So

6:32

because the stakes were so high

6:34

and the illegality of

6:36

the operation was so glaring, the

6:39

levels of secrecy involved were

6:41

draconian. And so even

6:43

after the war, long after the war, when

6:45

individuals were on the mission wanted to write

6:48

about it or talk about it, they still

6:50

couldn't do so. And the files on Operation

6:52

Postmaster were only released not

6:54

that long before I wrote the book. We're

6:57

talking 10, 15 years ago. So

7:00

one could not have told the story before

7:02

having that material. Right. Yeah.

7:05

The British are quite known for keeping their

7:08

World War II secrets. And just as you

7:10

explained for very good reasons, the last thing

7:12

the British needed was the access to have

7:14

another partner. And yeah, to lose the Mediterranean

7:16

is a town amount

7:18

to almost defeat, if you will. So

7:21

let's back up a bit. And you touched on something

7:24

just a second ago. So

7:26

again, when it comes to war, obviously

7:28

the breakdown of dialogue, the breakdown of

7:30

negotiations, you know, there's very few things

7:32

off the table, but you're absolutely right.

7:34

So where does operate special operations

7:36

fit in that? Because you've touched on it already,

7:38

but I'm just trying to think, okay, we're going

7:40

to take the fight to the enemy. If

7:43

we can kind of push aside the neutral

7:45

territory aspect for a second, we're going to

7:47

take to the fight to the enemy, but

7:49

we're going to do things that normally aren't

7:51

done before. I'm guessing that's why it was

7:53

so risky because it could upset

7:57

the acceptable forms of warfare.

7:59

Yeah. The in. Spain. Was.

8:02

Only neutral inferior meme it's described

8:04

is overrun with you stop of

8:06

agents and A and and in

8:08

a Nazi spy so it was

8:10

at everybody knew on the allied

8:12

solid cool spring cleaning were towards

8:15

i was any herbs and in

8:17

neutral nominally matter of. Changing

8:19

the rules of warfare. You're absolutely right. So

8:22

it is that the outbreak of war or

8:24

all the when. In. A

8:26

friend summers the Western Europe felt fell

8:28

so catastrophic t to the German Blitzkrieg

8:30

and a metal of much for weeks

8:32

and enough shock Little after that moment

8:34

in a Winston Churchill would British rule

8:37

time leader rightly decreed that. We.

8:39

Needed a new form of of warfighting

8:41

mean a total war So war waged

8:43

know on spawns. Nothing is off the

8:45

table. that's moink form the ministry from

8:48

gentle new warfare It was formed at

8:50

that moment. so in Nineteen forty. To

8:53

do all the things he will

8:55

not allowed to do in war.

8:57

That's that's exactly what it's remit

8:59

was so set up to do:

9:01

assassinations, murder, bribery, corruption, money laundering,

9:05

Smuggling. Operations Growing, Raising Thriller.

9:07

Ole Miss all these terrorist attacks

9:09

and the thing that you could

9:11

possibly think of. Esa.

9:13

we. Considered. As she

9:15

carried out and and when stop digging

9:18

deep into the fall some of the

9:20

operations or just mind boggling moink openly

9:22

bullying the off the wall run and

9:24

postmaster was the first. Of. Such

9:26

missions were. As. So

9:28

he agents who incidentally had had a.

9:31

A united James Bond the below seven

9:33

low. That comes from. These.

9:36

These these originals the public, the the

9:38

postmaster wow Morris and others like them

9:40

because they had double A prefix is

9:42

so you Work for example and Cosmos

9:44

Phillips the Come Onto The Mission was.

9:47

Agent. W Two, Zero, Zero One. Smoke

9:49

at at a double A prefix because it

9:51

meant you. You literally had a license to

9:53

Kill the President Of License To Kill You

9:55

had a license to do whatever you felt

9:57

was necessary to hell with the war. So.

10:00

Well, A A readable stereo the rulebook

10:02

completely And and and and and in

10:04

establishing a new means of of wage

10:06

and will no holds barred And it

10:09

was deeply. Deeply. Unpopular in

10:11

Britain. Get those sergeant the in

10:13

In the political establishment above those

10:15

are the military only command. To.

10:20

First of all, believed it wasn't

10:22

It wasn't a gentlemanly wasn't the

10:24

way the British officers bespoke debates,

10:26

right? Secondly, in a within the

10:28

political establishment, believe that if. If

10:31

we went ahead and broke all the rules of

10:33

war will then say with Nazi Germany. And

10:35

we would reap the whirlwind. The

10:37

prequels or cools. Nazi Germany had already tall

10:40

of the rule and they were no rules

10:42

left to to to to bear witness to

10:44

the same church or absolutely really as was

10:46

private. Attorney, you're absolutely

10:48

right and you anticipated my next question

10:51

because I'm thinking with all the respect

10:53

which bread is known for, thinking outside

10:55

the box And of course that would

10:57

be church or butcher you. But you're

10:59

right, I mean, it couldn't It was

11:01

their darkest hour If you, well I'm

11:03

into couldn't get much worse than that.

11:05

And I guess he's thinking well, we're

11:08

losing so we have to change how

11:10

the game is played. Very risky, very

11:12

gutsy, and on. even though the upside

11:14

are obviously you know the potential months.

11:16

I was great. So. Was the downside

11:18

and will get into that So suitors

11:20

are comes over this idea. We have

11:23

to do something because they're desperate spots.

11:25

Let's let's back up a little bit.

11:27

Why was Operation Postmaster needed? What? What

11:29

would say specifically going on there that

11:32

a gentleman have to go there. Yet.

11:34

Just on the point. Erase me please

11:36

under Bush. Well in a Churchill. Absolutely.

11:41

Realize that when we suffer was suffering

11:43

to see on all fronts, they sing

11:45

to see on all fronts. And when

11:47

many in Britain wanted to capitulate and

11:49

sort of peace up you know with

11:51

with Nazi Germany, Churchill realised that not

11:53

only did you have to fight the

11:55

war in a completely different way so.

11:57

Boy. ungentlemanly unconventional wolf

12:00

but also he realized that one or two of

12:02

these operations,

12:06

although they might seem like pain pricks in the

12:08

greater scheme of the war, what

12:10

they gave you, because you'd get headlines in

12:12

the British papers and then the headlines in

12:14

the American papers, what they gave you, what

12:16

they gave the British people was the belief

12:18

we had the ability to strike back. And

12:21

that's what you need at your darkest hour.

12:23

You need brave men and women for that

12:25

form and do the unthinkable to actually prove

12:27

to the general population that you're not down

12:29

on that. You can fight and actually you

12:31

can win and overcome when that seems impossible.

12:33

So that was Churchill's brilliance at

12:35

that moment. And why was

12:37

postmaster worth in Churchill's

12:40

view and those others who backed him, why

12:42

was it worth the incredible stakes? Because

12:45

it could have changed the course of the war, had it gone wrong?

12:47

Well, at that time,

12:49

and for many months

12:51

after, Britain was under a stranglehold from the

12:53

Nazi U boats. Everything had to

12:56

be shipped into Britain and especially

12:58

supplies under the lease from

13:00

the USA, of course. And they

13:02

were getting preyed upon by the U boats

13:04

horrendously. And one of

13:06

the clandestine refitting centers for U

13:08

boats, so rearming and repairs, was

13:11

believed to be these three

13:13

enemy vessels moored in

13:16

Fernando Po Harbor. So in

13:18

a neutral Spanish Harbor, Spanish

13:20

territory in

13:22

what's basically the armpit of Africa. So just off

13:24

the coast of Equatorial Guinea. And it was from

13:26

there that many of the Atlantic U boat fleets

13:29

were being rearmed and repaired

13:31

and resupplied. And so, that

13:33

was happening under the guise of neutrality

13:36

in a Spanish port and the Spanish

13:38

were, or

13:40

the Spanish regime was friendly towards the

13:42

Nazi regime. And so that's

13:45

why the stakes, which were incredibly, incredibly high,

13:47

were believed to be by Churchill at least,

13:49

and those who backed him were believed to

13:51

be worth it if we could carry out

13:53

the operation and make it a success. Hey,

13:56

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finance.com. That's Yahoo

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finance.com. Right.

15:07

So is that one of the rules that

15:09

the Nazi Germany broke that you were mentioning

15:11

earlier? I mean, it seems like housing,

15:14

repairing, and rearming your

15:16

vessels in a neutral

15:18

territory seems disingenuous,

15:20

either Spain's in the war or they're not.

15:22

Or am I reading too much into that?

15:24

No, no, you're absolutely right. You know, I

15:27

mean, that's against the rules of war. So,

15:30

you know, clearly hiding in a neutral harbor,

15:32

because you know that your enemy can't attack you,

15:34

but basically attacking your enemy from that harbor, it's

15:37

not cricket, you can't do that under the rules

15:39

of war. Right. You know, you have to fight

15:41

fire with fire. And if the enemy is going

15:43

to behave in that way, you have to not

15:45

just fight fire with fire, you have to go

15:47

one better and be and out, outwit

15:50

and outfight them at their own game. And that's

15:52

exactly what Churchill was determined to do. And as

15:54

I say, huge, huge

15:57

opposition and animosity from many, many,

16:00

in high command. There were many attempts were made

16:02

to sabotage postmaster and make sure

16:04

it didn't happen by you know

16:06

senior naval and other commanders. Yeah I enjoyed

16:08

that in your book very much because

16:11

Churchill's got the battle against the Axis but he's

16:13

also if you will kind of you know got

16:15

a battle within his own halls because there are

16:17

a lot of traditionalists thinking

16:19

oh this isn't proper this isn't how you

16:22

do it and so he had that that

16:24

two-front war if you will and kind of

16:26

leaning on another part that I admire about

16:28

the British during World War II how

16:31

did they find out about the

16:33

U-boats being repaired and re-armed in

16:35

this location? Yeah it's a great

16:38

question so we had

16:40

you know diplomats in

16:42

Fernando Poe and

16:46

they were doubling as SOE

16:48

agents when that's you

16:50

know when the diplomats not double as

16:52

spies they often do so we

16:54

had several in Fernando Poe who were

16:57

you know the attaché whatever it might be

16:59

and actually they were there as

17:01

SOE agents so they had carried out some of the

17:04

most extraordinary operations you know one of them had

17:07

rode across Fernando

17:09

Poe Harbor claiming he was

17:11

delivering mail to from

17:13

one part of the British you

17:16

know diplomatic setup to another

17:18

and actually it stopped ostensibly

17:21

to rest halfway across

17:23

the harbor leaning on the anchor chain of one

17:25

of the ships and in that way he'd managed

17:27

to get his hands around it and measure how

17:29

thick it was and that's how we then worked

17:32

out how much explosives was needed to use to

17:34

actually blow the anchor chain and in another even

17:36

more extraordinary event one of the the

17:39

senior Spanish figures

17:41

in Fernando Poe one

17:44

of the governors there was found to

17:46

have a mistress and they

17:48

managed to take get photographs of him

17:51

watering her with a watering can

17:53

naked in his bedroom and

17:56

they used those to blackbell him

17:58

to Get him to

18:01

allow right the British to do these over

18:03

flights of the harbor to take reconnaissance photos

18:05

of the ships And

18:07

say that they were sightseeing flights. So

18:09

going back to what I was saying earlier Yes,

18:11

so we empowered to do all the things you're

18:13

not allowed to do during war like what I've

18:16

just described blackmailing the the

18:18

Spanish governor in Fernando Pope Wow, all

18:21

I can say is clever clever chaps

18:23

that you know, simple but brilliant you

18:25

get the information you distill it you

18:27

pass it on The HQ somebody

18:30

makes a decision and suddenly we're off to

18:32

the races But before postmaster gets

18:34

underway and I and I really love this

18:36

part of your book Can

18:38

you tell us a little bit about the

18:40

training because they weren't just anybody? I mean

18:43

these guys were put through their paces and

18:45

of course and of course There's this one

18:47

rather large gentleman with a strange

18:49

accent going around with a bow

18:52

and arrow in the Dorset Lakes So if you can give

18:54

us an idea of what they had to go through to

18:56

get to I guess either to be qualified Or

18:58

to get ready for these very

19:01

unpredictable missions Yeah, so

19:03

there was a very rigorous and

19:05

bespoke training program Establishing

19:07

in Dorset, which is a very

19:09

leafy and green Aurora part of

19:11

England, right? And basically it

19:14

was the earliest kind of form

19:16

of Special air service SIS

19:18

selection or what you know, the fields of

19:20

Delta force would be put through today. So,

19:23

you know Dropped

19:25

by a truck in the middle of the night and you have to trek

19:28

all the way back to your base You

19:30

know navigating your way through the countryside surviving

19:32

off the land That

19:34

kind of thing and one of those figures one of

19:36

the earliest recruits. It was a

19:38

Danish Danish

19:40

noble actually born to very

19:43

very well to do Danish family who'd

19:45

grown up on their large estate in

19:47

Denmark didn't really enjoy school very much

19:49

but love going hunting stags and fishing

19:52

and Usually using a bow and

19:54

arrow or even with his bare hands

19:56

Wow. So so this and his lesson who'd run

19:58

away from school the

20:00

age 18, gone and become a merchant seamen, but

20:02

then had come to Britain once war was declared

20:04

and volunteered. Well, no one in the regular military

20:06

knew what to do with this kind of like

20:09

feral individual who loved going hunting with the bow

20:11

and arrow. It's like, well, you know, he can't

20:13

teach him drill. He doesn't like wearing a uniform.

20:15

What can we do with it? And

20:18

so he was, he was presented to the

20:20

SOIV and the SOIV, maybe he's, you know,

20:22

one of the, he's right kind of material

20:25

for the Maid of the Horse as they

20:27

became known. And they'd last and

20:30

various other individuals end up at a

20:32

manorist called Anderson Manor. So grand rambling

20:34

old British house in, in

20:36

Torset, which is one of the special

20:38

operations executive special training stations.

20:42

And he became renowned throughout Dorset.

20:44

He basically became known as the

20:46

Danish Robin Hood, or even the

20:48

Dorset Robin Hood, because he was,

20:51

he'd go out on these operations at night and often

20:53

they were canoeing down, down the rivers and things and

20:55

have his bow and arrow with him. And because he

20:57

was blonde haired and spoke with what

20:59

sounded to most Dorset residents like a German

21:02

accent, he was arresting. It was time to

21:04

have a hand up for being an enemy

21:06

alien, you know, launching a

21:09

sabotage operation against some other

21:11

Dorset and arrow. And, and

21:14

every time, you know, the Gus March

21:16

Phillips, his commanding officer had to phone up the

21:19

hand guard from Anderson Manor and say, look,

21:21

he's one of ours, believe it or

21:23

not, these guys really were chosen because

21:26

they were, they were unconventional

21:28

thinkers. They were misfits. And, and, and

21:30

actually the other thing united them was

21:32

they all had a burning desire to

21:34

fight. And this lesson, you know,

21:36

his country, Denmark had been invaded by Nazi

21:38

Germany, his country was occupied, his people were

21:41

occupied. So he had vowed that he would

21:43

do anything in this war to bring freedom

21:45

to his nation. That's

21:47

incredible. I remember putting the book down

21:49

and laughing so hard. Just

21:52

the idea of him being arrested. No, yes, he's one

21:54

of ours. Bring him, you know, that kind of conversation

21:56

or whatever. So you've mentioned

21:58

Gus Phillips, excuse me, mentioned. March

22:00

Phillips and you mentioned the Dane. Could

22:02

you introduce us to some of the other members that's

22:04

going to be a part of this team? Yeah,

22:07

so Guster, Guster March Phillips was the was

22:10

the commander certainly

22:12

the maid honor force and March Phillips was He

22:15

was a typical Highborn

22:17

English gentleman before the war he'd been

22:20

he'd been basically horse racing and writing

22:23

thrillers That was pre-war

22:25

patient, right? And you know like like

22:27

many of these individuals Very

22:29

few of them had a

22:31

traditional military background And

22:34

his lesson didn't Gus March

22:36

flip second in command Jeffrey Appleyard who became

22:39

a Absolutely standout figure

22:41

in special operation throughout the war

22:43

until he was sadly killed right

22:45

on operations. He was a He

22:48

was working as a wood sculptor before the war.

22:50

Wow You know what

22:52

bought Gus March Phillips and Appleyard

22:55

together was actually they were part

22:57

of The British Expeditionary Force

22:59

sent to France and Belgium to

23:01

try to repel into the Nazi blitzkrieg

23:03

in 1940 I

23:06

guess much Phillips and Appleyard it ended

23:08

up in a in a foxhole on

23:10

the Dunkirk beaches getting strapped by German

23:13

warplanes feeling utterly defeated not utterly

23:15

helpless Wow and at that moment

23:17

They had vowed to each other

23:20

that they would find a way to fight back

23:22

and this was the operation Postmaster

23:24

was there God to give an opportunity and

23:26

then just one other the video is worth

23:28

worth, you know Identify because it kind

23:30

of gives gives the the sense

23:32

of what they were like and who they were because

23:34

they were Going to be

23:37

sailing halfway around the world on

23:39

a converted bricks and

23:41

fishing trawler right been converted into

23:43

a pleasure ship before the war

23:46

and then when it became an So e vessel

23:48

laid they converted into what's called a

23:50

Q ship. So deception ship So it

23:52

had hidden cannons and mortars hidden behind

23:54

the wheelhouse and other parts of the

23:56

ship So the flick of a switch

23:58

or a lever you could drop the

24:01

facade of it being just a normal

24:03

pleasure yacht and bring your weapons to

24:05

bear. And because

24:07

they were posing as a Swedish

24:10

crew on a

24:12

pleasure cruise, I'll just repeat that

24:14

because it's so bizarre. I'm

24:17

just going to go on a pleasure

24:19

cruise. That was

24:21

their cover. They carried horse papers

24:23

saying they were Swedish and his lathoms spoke

24:25

Swedish and he looked Swedish. So,

24:27

you know, but they felt

24:30

they needed a cabin buoy to make the,

24:32

you know, going on a pleasure

24:34

cruise seem more kind of convincing. So they recruited

24:36

a young 17 year old

24:38

called Buzz Perkins. Buzz was his nickname

24:40

because he looked young enough to pass

24:43

as a cabin buoy. And actually one

24:46

of their friends, who was right about their age,

24:48

who basically put him forward and said, yes, you

24:50

know, take my son because we know you

24:52

need that for your deception and we need to defeat

24:54

the Nazis. So Buzz, off you go. That

24:58

kind of attitude. Can

25:00

you imagine that, you know, putting your son forward

25:02

halfway around the world with a bunch

25:04

of wild lunatics on a mission, which

25:06

by anyone's reckoning was suicidal. In

25:10

a being serious moment, if these guys

25:12

were captured, the

25:14

very worst lay ahead because the British

25:16

government said, you will be, all

25:18

our Soviet agents were like this, you will be disowned.

25:21

Yeah, you were deploying in civilian

25:23

dress, not in uniform. You

25:26

will be completely disowned by the British government.

25:28

We will just say you're a bunch of

25:30

rogues who went who went AWOL without any

25:32

permission. And because they were in civilian

25:34

dress, so therefore they'd be classed as spies, then,

25:37

you know, the very worst would happen if

25:39

they capture torture and death would follow. So,

25:41

you know, by anyone's reckoning, this was a

25:44

this was a mission which they could

25:46

believe in that there were actually individuals and

25:48

step forward as volunteers to undertake it. That's

25:51

incredible. Yet to hear you put it like that, it's

25:53

pretty much we're going on a mission. It's either going

25:55

to be successful or there's going to

25:58

be oblivion because we're all going to die. And

26:00

obviously there's probably going to be a lot

26:02

of torture before they die because again the

26:05

Nazis had broken a lot of rules of Warfare

26:07

so so we've got the team. We've got it

26:10

set up. They've got their mission we know why

26:12

it's important because they need to do

26:14

something to in to affect the Very

26:17

successful you boats in the Atlantic so

26:19

going into the actual mission now obviously

26:21

there's the book. There's the movie I

26:23

don't want to ruin anything But I'll

26:25

let you decide how much of post

26:28

postmaster we cover or not but the

26:30

other thing that I found really intriguing was

26:32

and you touched on this earlier is that

26:34

London or excuse me parts of London parts of the

26:37

government have to be ready to go to spin this

26:39

because they can't just say Yeah, we did this we

26:41

went into a neutral territory and we you know, we

26:43

pull this off. No, they have to be ready to

26:47

present some other form of the events

26:49

for the rest of the world, like

26:51

you said the British public the Americans

26:53

but also The

26:55

access as well because I think it's after

26:57

this and correct me if I'm wrong It's

27:00

after this that Hitler's gonna go right? Okay

27:02

any spies anybody caught Immediate,

27:04

you know, just if they're officers or whatever.

27:06

I want them dead any enemy Saboteurs

27:09

or what have you they are to

27:11

just be eliminated. Yes, so Hitler

27:13

did issue what began then is the commando order Document

27:17

which basically highly illegal obviously right?

27:20

He could a team of lawyers together to

27:22

try and make it legal something which is

27:24

patently illegal by all the rules of war

27:26

Mm-hmm. So they kept squirting for his commander

27:28

order, which basically says any of these special

27:30

operators Captured behind the lines

27:32

in uniform out of uniform armed

27:35

or unarmed trying to resist or not Not

27:38

trying to resist should be kept alive only

27:40

for as long as the SS and Gestapo

27:42

need them for interrogations And then they should

27:44

be shot at hand And in

27:47

fact his under order ends warning any

27:49

officer who disobeys the commander order will

27:51

be will be bought before the Nazi

27:54

tribunal so, you know, it's a very

27:56

very dark document and and

27:58

part of the reason that Hitler offered

28:00

that document was because for some reason, which

28:02

is so hard to understand,

28:06

he viewed these operations as like

28:08

a personal affront against him. You

28:12

read all, you study all the documents like he

28:14

really, really, for some

28:16

reason, it really got his goat. I mean,

28:18

I know there were assassination missions against high

28:20

ranking Nazi officials. I know that, you know,

28:23

that we carried out this kind of operations.

28:25

He said perhaps he felt threatened, who knows?

28:27

But yes, he very, very much took umbrage

28:29

at these kind of operations and said, right,

28:32

okay, any one of these guys who gets

28:34

captured or any of these females who get

28:36

captured, you know, they will be kept

28:38

alive only for as long as we need them and

28:40

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29:14

Oh, and just real quick before we go on,

29:17

earlier you were mentioning about Ms. Gonzalez

29:19

giving the coin. Am I jealous?

29:21

A little bit, but the point I wanted to make was

29:25

the gentleman have weapons and they have a

29:27

plan. She's got to go in and she's

29:29

got to use her guile, her intelligence, her

29:31

I mean, those aren't exactly as good

29:34

as a gun if things turn bad.

29:36

So again, that's a whole different level

29:38

of bravery that I will never know. But

29:41

she obviously she's dedicated to the cause.

29:44

Yeah, no, absolutely. So there are so many examples

29:46

of young, brave,

29:49

immensely courageous, the bravest of the brave,

29:51

these women who went behind enemy lines

29:54

with nothing to protect the mother than

29:56

their humor, their garland. And

29:58

you could argue their beauty as

30:00

well. You know, inconceivable what that

30:03

must feel like and what that must

30:05

take. So yes, and let's be frank about

30:07

it as well. There

30:09

are worse things that your Starpo can do

30:11

to a woman than they can do to

30:13

a man. And I

30:15

don't want to have to elaborate. Absolutely. Absolutely.

30:19

So they knew what they were taking on and

30:21

yet they still stepped into the fire. And

30:23

you know, I think, you

30:25

know, Mr Gonzalez does a great job of

30:28

bringing that alive. You really get

30:30

the sense from her that she's

30:32

surviving on her wits, her elegance,

30:34

her charm, her intelligence. Yeah. But

30:37

her life is hanging by a thread at so many times during

30:39

the movie, you feel that. And I

30:41

think that's part of the reason why, as you

30:43

say, she kind of almost feels the show. Because

30:46

in a sense, the jeopardy that she's under is

30:48

so much more real than the

30:50

guys who are doing the operation. Yeah. Because

30:52

I'm watching her and I'm like, why are

30:55

you walking into this willingly? But again, there's

30:57

a bigger cause. There's, you know, there's countries

30:59

and people to save and she wanted to

31:01

do her part. She was

31:03

just amazing. So what would

31:05

you feel, what would you like to

31:07

cover as far as postmaster or even

31:10

if, you know, kind of behind the

31:12

scenes, whatever you would like to share

31:14

with us, obviously, without ruining the experience

31:16

for others, but whatever you

31:18

would like to cover? Yeah,

31:20

I think one of the most key aspects

31:23

of this mission was that this

31:26

is what it turned around. You know,

31:28

so you mentioned the fact that SOE

31:31

had to come up with a cover story,

31:33

right? To come up with a

31:35

cover story that they were going to release to

31:37

the meat of the world's media. And that

31:39

cover story had to work not just in terms of

31:41

our own in the American press, but in terms of

31:43

the enemy's press. We had

31:46

to have plausible deniability. We had

31:48

to plausibly deny that we were

31:51

responsible. And so the and so

31:53

my we had to have

31:55

plausible deniability. And so the political

31:58

part of the SOE. which is called

32:00

the Political Warfare Executive, the propaganda wing,

32:04

wrote these stories even prior to

32:06

the mission going out, basically saying

32:09

the crews of the three enemy

32:11

warships mutinied

32:14

in Fernando Pohaba because the

32:16

conditions were so bad, conditions

32:19

were so bad in Fernando Pohaba. They

32:22

weren't getting paid, you know, they

32:24

were just unwilling to

32:26

continue what is serving there. And so

32:28

they mutinied, cut their

32:31

own chains, sailed the ships

32:33

out into international waters, at

32:35

which point a British warship just happened to

32:37

be in the area. Came across

32:39

them and seized them as prizes of war,

32:42

which of course you can do. If

32:44

you encounter enemy warships on the high seas,

32:46

and you can seize them, they become your

32:48

prizes of war. So that was

32:50

the cover story put together. But

32:52

what that meant was that, you know, when

32:55

they went into to do

32:58

the operation, they couldn't blow the warships up.

33:01

Because obviously you blew them up, all

33:03

the evidence of your perfidy, and all

33:05

the plausible deniability is blown out of

33:07

the water. You just can't do that.

33:09

And in any case, actually, you know,

33:11

the harbor was too shallow to affect

33:14

a really effective sinking. And

33:16

so operation became a cutout operation where

33:18

they had to go in there, somehow

33:21

sever the anchor chains, and steal the

33:23

vessels, and get them on the way

33:25

and sail them out into international waters,

33:27

at which point the cover story could

33:29

go into operation. So in terms of,

33:31

you know, mission impossible, it would be

33:33

hard enough to envision getting into the

33:35

harbor unseen and undetected, because it was

33:38

very, very heavily defended. And

33:40

then, you know, assaulting the ship,

33:42

dealing with the crew, and then blowing the ships

33:44

up. That's hard enough, but to do all that,

33:47

and then not to blow the ships up, but

33:49

somehow start the engines, and sail them out into

33:51

international waters, somehow keep all the

33:53

crew members, you know, under

33:56

control. It just beggars belief. That

33:58

was the... operation that

34:00

they were sent in to do and in

34:02

terms of a mission of impossible, there is

34:04

no other operation like it. The

34:07

stakes were just beyond belief. Absolutely.

34:10

And I just have to say, during that

34:12

part of the movie, I'm almost screaming at

34:14

the screen, can these ships move

34:16

any faster, trying to be important? I'm like,

34:18

come on, you're killing me here. But

34:22

yeah, that was

34:24

the big payoff for

34:26

all of that they had to go through. And

34:28

obviously, there's things that trip them up. They had

34:31

to change their plans a couple of times. But like

34:33

you said, these people are very

34:35

developed, are very talented at thinking outside

34:37

the box, working off the cuff, kind

34:39

of rolling with the punches. And that's

34:41

what you need because they're

34:43

doing it their own way. Yeah,

34:46

absolutely. When

34:48

you look at the lowest common denominator of

34:50

what unites these individuals, it's being able to

34:52

think the unthinkable. It's having that lateral mindset.

34:54

Right. They're having to think the

34:56

unthinkable, but then to put it into interaction. So

34:58

to think it and then to make it reality.

35:01

Because if you can think of an unthinkable way

35:03

to attack the enemy, you can bet your bottom

35:05

dollar the enemy will never have thought of it.

35:07

So they won't have defensive in place to defend

35:09

against it. And the other thing

35:11

that they really, really needed on this

35:13

operation, again, it's the lowest common denominator

35:16

of these kind of operatives. They needed

35:18

the ability to disobey orders

35:20

when they had to. So there's a moment in

35:23

the movie where they are basically

35:25

ordered to stand down the operation by one

35:27

of these senior military figures

35:29

who believed it was unconscionable that

35:31

British soldiers should be

35:34

off doing something as piratical as this. And

35:37

as March Phillips basically says, he uses

35:39

an expletive and basically

35:42

pretends that he's lost his radio signal,

35:45

can't hear the order. That was in

35:47

what was needed on the ground. Because

35:49

of course, yes, Churchill backed the mission,

35:52

but he couldn't always be there to give them top

35:54

cover. He was a very busy guy at the time.

35:57

And there were moments, several moments in the

35:59

story. both in the movie and in

36:01

real life, where they're detractors trying to stop

36:04

the operation going ahead. And they have to

36:06

fight another way and make one. I mean,

36:08

there's one story in the book, absolutely true,

36:10

where they sailed the

36:13

Maid Honor, their Q ship to actually

36:15

Lagos, supporting Nigeria, which was British

36:17

territory at the time, and

36:19

they're to pick up a load of sailors

36:22

and soldiers to boost their numbers. And

36:24

the British military commander

36:26

refuses to provide any, because he

36:29

just is one of these naysayers who believe

36:31

they shouldn't be happening. So what do they

36:33

do? And it's delicious, it's brilliant. They go

36:36

to the governor of Nigeria

36:38

and explain the situation. They decide that

36:40

they will recruit members

36:43

of the British administration in

36:45

Nigeria. So you're talking like, you know,

36:47

teachers and surveyors and

36:49

anybody with a smidgen of First World

36:52

War experience, whatever it might be. And

36:54

one of the guys is in his

36:56

50s, and they all step forward as

36:58

volunteers. Wow. You know, this is my

37:00

dad's army stuff. And they've got

37:02

48 hours to train them at sea in this

37:05

unbelievably difficult cutout operation. And that's what

37:07

I'm saying. That is the lateral thinking

37:10

during the unexpected. And when people try

37:12

and get in your way and stop

37:14

you, you just find a way around

37:16

them. Yeah, the masters of workaround, if

37:18

you will. But yeah, and please don't

37:20

take this wrong way. But I always

37:22

thought the British people would be great

37:24

pirates. So I'm not surprised. But no,

37:27

I love the British people. I'm just

37:29

joking. So I want people to know as far as

37:31

the book is concerned. So so I've

37:33

got the book. But I also got the

37:35

audio book because I do a lot of

37:37

walking with my dog. And I finished postmaster.

37:39

And then I looked down at my phone

37:41

and I'm like, this audio book still has

37:43

seven hours to go. So obviously, you continue

37:45

the story of some of these people, you

37:47

continue the story of other operations.

37:50

And I have to say that the

37:52

Danes and the others really did step

37:54

up and they and even though postmaster

37:56

is incredible, there's a lot of other

37:59

incredible events, operations

38:03

that they undertake. And you're right, it

38:05

might just be a pinprick, but if

38:07

you put enough of them together, it

38:09

starts to tell and it affects the

38:11

enemy overall. Yeah, absolutely.

38:13

So, you know, man, these guys, did they

38:15

step forward and did they do the most

38:18

incredible things? I mean, you know, bear

38:21

in mind, pretty

38:23

much none of them survived the war. Right. And

38:25

this lesson, you know, there

38:28

are three statues at the SAS base in

38:30

the UK. There's David Sterling, the founder

38:32

of the SAS, there's the

38:52

rest of the book. And so, you know, one

38:54

of the ideas behind, you know, making the

38:56

movie on the postmaster was also that you

38:59

can bring those same individuals, those same characters

39:01

back for movie sequels. And there's, you know,

39:03

there are half a dozen

39:05

further missions in the book, which is made

39:07

for such amazing, amazing movies. I

39:10

mean, I don't know if you got to

39:12

the point yet of where Lassen

39:14

and a few crazy

39:16

warriors liberate Salonika, the second

39:18

biggest city in Greece from

39:21

the Nazis, using two fire

39:23

engines and bluff.

39:25

It is the most, yeah,

39:27

it's just the most incredible story. And there

39:29

are so many like that. And

39:32

so throughout the war, they keep

39:34

that spirit going, that spirit of,

39:37

you know, daring do, but lateral

39:39

thinking, thinking the unexpected bluff, deception,

39:41

all the things that, you

39:43

know, these units were set up to

39:45

do at this time, which hadn't really been done

39:47

before. Right. And so that's why, you

39:49

know, when you get to the end of the

39:51

postmaster, you probably fit the way through the book,

39:53

that's all. Yeah, exactly. And you made me think

39:55

of something just now, not only does this give,

39:57

not only does this hurt your enemy, you know,

39:59

these. operations but it also gives the British

40:01

people heart, it gives them hope and like

40:04

you said it's good for the Americans as

40:06

well so they're because they're not thinking oh

40:08

you know Britain's going to fall any day

40:10

now why should we bother so so obviously

40:12

there was a lot riding on this and

40:15

in my own personal opinion and I'm sure you've

40:17

heard this before and I won't give anything away

40:19

because I want people to read the book the

40:22

operation on Crete oh

40:24

my goodness if that's not talking

40:27

about the Herakkleian operation yes if

40:29

that's not the next movie I'm gonna

40:31

protest you know yeah let me tell you let

40:33

me tell you something right let me tell you

40:35

so you're gonna love this so so

40:38

I know eight months

40:40

ago I get invited to go on

40:42

set and they're filming on HMS Belfast

40:44

in London because HMS Belfast is World

40:47

War II shit moored in London right I

40:50

recognize some of the scenes from the movie and so

40:52

I go there and I meet Henry Cavill

40:54

who's a true gentleman what a nice guy

40:57

and I met Alan Richardson and I'm five

40:59

foot six so Alan Richardson is twice as

41:01

big as me at least right I'm

41:04

staring up at him going so tell me hey

41:06

uh what's it been like you know playing Eddish

41:08

Lassen and trying to master a Danish accent we're

41:11

having a laugh and he said to me uh

41:14

you know and I'll never forget this he

41:16

said you know what I'm really looking forward to

41:18

he said I just want to play Lassen

41:20

in the raid on Herakkleian when he's running

41:22

up to the air base yelling out all

41:24

those orders in German and convincing the enemy

41:27

he's actually a German officer where actually he's

41:29

the person they're blowing up all their war

41:31

things he said I've got to play that

41:33

god I'm seeing I

41:36

know I was like the um

41:38

the guts on this guy when I'm reading that part

41:40

of the book and he goes back yeah

41:43

he went he went back

41:46

three times three

41:49

times oh there's another war plane over there let's go back

41:51

in and he's got the British guy with him with the British

41:53

guys going again yes I'm going now

41:58

yeah Lassen was brilliant He was

42:00

he was he was an absolute yeah, you know

42:02

legend amongst the men he led and actually being

42:04

serious I mean one of the things about last,

42:07

you know one should never forget is that you

42:09

know, the men under his command They adored him

42:11

right they revered Yeah, and

42:13

when when other commanders stuff the

42:15

you know mainstream British officers came

42:18

up and tried to berate them

42:20

for their somewhat

42:22

unsoldily looking appearance because they did tend

42:24

to dress as they saw fit in

42:26

the uniform they Fit because they felt

42:28

that they should wear what they most

42:30

felt comfortable soldiering in Lassen

42:32

would jump to their defense in the most

42:36

Way there's a scene later in the book

42:38

You'll love it where where exactly that happens

42:40

and lesson absolutely takes the officer in question

42:42

to to the cleaners So yeah, he was

42:45

he was you know revered by those he commanded

42:47

and and part of the reason was because

42:49

he he never Expected anyone

42:51

to do what he would not

42:53

do himself Right he led front

42:55

always he dies on operations right

42:57

at the end of the war

43:00

Charging down a machine gun there single-handedly

43:02

leading his men So, you know that

43:04

kind of you know, it would be

43:06

very difficult not to be brave in

43:09

the company of such an individual Absolutely,

43:11

and and I've been studying World War two long enough

43:13

to know at the end of the day It

43:16

all comes down to leadership. It comes down to

43:18

example It comes down to caring for your men

43:20

if you take care of your people They

43:23

will take care of you and just that

43:25

that teamwork mentality. We could certainly use a

43:27

lot more of that And

43:30

what was there? Oh And

43:32

I don't want to give anything the way to the readers but

43:34

the whole bow and arrow thing There's more

43:36

of that in the book where he has to

43:38

I think either ask permission or something like that

43:41

But but he does it does it a chance

43:43

to use bow and arrow Lesson

43:46

petitions the British war office. It's one of the

43:48

first things he does right when he's been recruited

43:50

to us So he he petitions the British war

43:53

office explaining why the bow and arrow is the

43:55

perfect weapon weapon in World War two It's

43:58

the silent killing. Yes, it's true. Yes never

44:00

runs out of bullets. You can always make

44:02

more bows and arrows, some stuff you carve

44:04

from a tree. He's got all these reasons

44:06

why it's a perfect weapon for World War II,

44:09

especially for the SOE. So he petitions the

44:11

war office for it to be used in

44:13

SOE operations. They

44:16

give him permission to test out bows and arrows

44:18

and dorse it. Then they come back with

44:20

the decision that the bow

44:23

and arrow is too inhumane

44:26

to be used in World War II.

44:28

I mean, go figure. The flamethrower is

44:30

okay. But not the bow and

44:32

arrow. So lesson takes no notice of that at all,

44:35

of course, and carries on

44:37

as before, as you would expect. I'm just

44:39

trying to picture someone argue

44:41

the point, no, I'd rather be killed

44:43

the traditional way in war. Thank you.

44:45

If that actually mattered. Okay, so I

44:47

just want everybody to know that the

44:50

movie was great. It was a lot

44:52

of fun, lots of great

44:55

tense moments. The gentleman, I'm sorry, I

44:57

can't remember his name, but the gentleman

45:00

that played the lead German. Very

45:03

good. Oh, I was scared of him. If I

45:05

met him today, I would be afraid of

45:07

him right now. Yeah, very good. The movie

45:10

is fantastic, obviously, if I can say this,

45:12

and I hope Guy Ritchie doesn't get mad

45:14

at me. The book

45:16

was better because it had so much more in it,

45:18

but I really enjoyed the book very much. If we

45:21

could be just lighthearted for a moment, I know you're

45:23

a busy man, but you've been on

45:25

the show, I think this is your third time. After

45:27

the first time that you left, and

45:29

I was thinking about it, and I can't remember if

45:31

I said anything to you, but I'm like, you know,

45:33

one of these days, someone's going to take one of

45:36

his books, and they're going to make a film into it. And

45:38

I just hope he calls me and just

45:40

just Ray, this is happening. I'm going to

45:43

bring you you can drive my car, you

45:45

can carry my bags, whatever. So I'm a

45:47

little I'm a little disappointed. I mean, but

45:49

again, I didn't really say anything to you.

45:51

I'm not blaming you. I should have

45:53

given you a call seriously. But you know,

45:55

how was I to know? No, you're right.

45:57

You're right. I should have. Next

46:00

time. Next time. Okay, so

46:02

that's all. You don't even have to mean it. I

46:04

just appreciate you saying it. So next time. Where

46:07

are you based in the States, just

46:09

so I know geographically where to go.

46:11

Right, Virginia, Central Virginia. Virginia, you're perfect.

46:13

Perfect, man. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

46:15

I mean, let's do it. Okay, now I cannot

46:17

drive on the left-hand side of the road, but

46:19

other than that, I would be a great driver.

46:21

Okay, I just want you to... I don't know.

46:24

Yeah, yeah. Listen, listen. Next

46:26

time there's a movie released in the States, you

46:28

are booked, my friend. Thank you. Oh,

46:30

I have to go buy pants. Anyway, that's

46:33

a whole other story. You don't want to

46:35

hear about that. So everybody needs to check

46:37

out the movie and also the book, The

46:39

Ministry of Ungentimentally Warfare, How Churchill's Secret

46:41

Warriors Set Europe Ablaze and Gave Birth to

46:44

the Modern Black Ops. Mr. Lewis, thank you

46:46

very much for your time. Thank you for

46:48

this movie and the book and obviously, and

46:51

I'm jealous of your existence. If I

46:53

could trade places with you, I would. Well,

46:56

as I say, it's always a pleasure to be on your

46:58

show. Let's do another one soon. Let's do another

47:01

one when there's a next movie coming out and

47:03

it may be the sequel to Ministry of Ungentimentally

47:05

Warfare, maybe another one, but I'll be back. Yeah.

47:08

Perfect. Thank you very much.

47:10

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