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0:50

Hello 1, and welcome to the

0:52

history of Byzantium episode

0:54

two hundred and fifty five. The

0:57

third crusade, part

0:59

one. Last

1:03

time, we heard how the sultan of Egypt,

1:05

Saladin, took control of

1:07

Nur al Din's empire and used

1:09

its resources to crush the kingdom

1:12

of Jerusalem. Otramir

1:14

was always out manned and outgunned by

1:17

its Muslim neighbors, but no one

1:19

had been able to bring that superiority to

1:21

bear until Saladin came

1:23

along. Once the

1:25

Crusader army had been annihilated, nothing

1:28

stood between the Sultan and Jerusalem

1:30

itself. The holy

1:32

city quickly surrendered. On the second

1:34

of October, eleven eighty seven.

1:38

As you can imagine, news of this disaster

1:40

spread rapidly towards Western Europe

1:43

and Pope Gregory the eighth immediately

1:45

called for a new crusade to

1:47

rescue Butromir. As

1:53

I mentioned, two episodes ago, the timing

1:55

couldn't have been worse for Isaac

1:57

Angelos. The

1:59

new emperor was struggling to keep control,

2:02

of the Roman world. He

2:04

could barely trust his own nobles. The

2:06

Bulgarian rebellion was gathering steam,

2:09

and he just learned of a new uprising

2:11

in Anatolia. This

2:13

was led by the governor of Philadelphia, Theodore

2:16

Mangafas. Philadelphia

2:20

was the capital of the revived thracician

2:22

theme. And with little support coming

2:25

from Constantinople, Theodor was

2:27

left alone to deal with a nasty

2:29

turquoise raid the year before. So

2:31

he did what all the nobility were doing these

2:33

days, he declared himself emperor

2:35

and stopped sending tax to the capital.

2:39

Isaac took his army across the waters and

2:41

besieged Philadelphia early in eleven

2:43

eighty nine. But reports soon

2:45

reached him that a German led army

2:48

of Crusaders was on the move

2:50

and would be crossing into the Balkans in

2:52

a couple of months. Isaac

2:55

was forced to negotiate with

2:57

Theodore. Magnafas

2:59

was allowed to remain governor of Philadelphia

3:02

as long as he renounced his imperial title

3:04

and sent his sons to Isaac as

3:07

hostages. It was a

3:09

solution which made Isaac look weak.

3:11

But as had been the pattern of his rule

3:13

so far, the emperor felt he

3:15

had no other choice. After

3:18

all, the worst Mengevass could do

3:20

was deprive him of tax revenue,

3:22

whereas the Latins could deprive him

3:25

of Constantinople. The

3:29

crusade had been preached far and wide

3:31

during eleven eighty eight. The

3:34

fall of Jerusalem to the Muslims

3:36

was a shocking enough event to

3:38

stir the hearts of many aladdin. But

3:41

when combined with the usual propaganda about

3:44

Muslim brutality, men were chomping

3:46

at the bit to head east. As

3:49

with the second crusade, heads

3:52

of state proudly signed up to

3:54

do their duty. The emperor of

3:56

Germany and king of France were

3:58

again on hand to lead the

3:59

faithful. And on this occasion, they were

4:01

joined by the king of England as

4:03

well. The

4:05

monarchs of the latter two nations decided

4:08

to sail east though, taking

4:10

with them relatively small numbers of committed

4:12

professional soldiers. Whereas,

4:15

The emperor of Germany, Frederick

4:17

Barbarossa, would lead

4:20

a more traditional popular crusade.

4:22

The majority of whom were experienced

4:25

fighters, but with room for some enthusiastic

4:27

civilians as well. This

4:29

gathering of armed pilgrims was

4:31

too vast for any fleet to carry.

4:34

So Barbarossa announced his intention

4:36

to lead them to Jerusalem the old

4:38

fashioned way. On foot.

4:40

Across the Byzantine Empire. Isa

4:46

could sent envoys to Nuremberg in

4:48

autumn eleven eighty eight. To

4:50

discuss terms with the German Emperor.

4:53

And these discussions were friendly following

4:55

the same contours as past

4:57

negotiations. The Romans

5:00

promised to allow the Crusaders to cross

5:02

their lands, to provide markets

5:04

for them, and to ship them over to

5:06

Anatolia. While in

5:08

return, Barbarossa agreed that his men

5:10

would not attack Roman settlements en

5:12

route. But

5:14

despite this seemingly good natured

5:16

agreement, both sides were

5:18

far more suspicious of each other than

5:20

had been the case in the past. The

5:23

Romans had every reason to be suspicious

5:25

of Frederick Barbarossa. They

5:27

had not forgotten his fractious relationship

5:30

with Manuel. His insulting

5:32

letters referring to Cominars as

5:34

king of the Greeks, all the threats he'd

5:36

issued real or imagined

5:38

Byzantium. The

5:40

German monarch now in his late sixties

5:42

was a hugely respected and commanding

5:45

figure in Latin Europe, If anyone

5:47

could succeed in capturing Constantinople, it

5:50

would surely be him. More

5:53

grounded worries were found in

5:55

the form of Serbian and Bulgarian

5:57

ambassadors also present

5:59

at Nuremberg. The Romans

6:02

knew exactly what that meant. These

6:04

rebellious Balkan statelets were

6:06

trying to gain German patronage and

6:08

would certainly attempt to poison

6:11

Barbaross' mind against them. The

6:15

presence of Serbian and Bulgarian armies

6:18

in the Balkans definitely made

6:20

Isaac's job harder. Both

6:22

groups were occupying Roman lands,

6:24

meaning harvests of food and tanks

6:26

were not reaching the emperor. And

6:28

with the rebellion in Anatolia only

6:31

just halted, Angolos was worried

6:33

that the necessary resources to supply

6:35

the Crusaders might be hard to

6:37

come by. Still,

6:40

All these worries were on the Roman

6:42

side. The Latins had no

6:44

reason to be suspicious of the God

6:46

fearing Byzantium. Did

6:48

they? The Latins

6:51

gathering in Germany were, of course, men

6:53

who had a passion for crew saving.

6:56

They had read or at least heard

6:58

the stories of the glorious first

7:00

crusade and the disappointments of

7:02

the second. Both of

7:04

which in Latin accounts included anti

7:07

Byzantine sentiments. Roman

7:09

intransigence and ubiquity were widely

7:12

believed to be a factor in the failings

7:14

of those missions. Barbarossa

7:16

himself had taken part in the Second Crusade,

7:19

he had swung his sword at Byzantine

7:21

troops. He knew that their promises

7:23

of friendship were not always backed

7:25

up by action. More

7:28

recent events clouded the horizon too.

7:31

Just seven years earlier, Latin

7:33

merchants had been massacred on the Golden

7:35

Horn on the orders of

7:37

the emperor andronicus. And

7:40

it gets worse, rumors had been circulating

7:42

in the west that the Byzantines had formed

7:44

an alliance. With Saladin

7:46

himself. Diplomatic

7:51

contact with Saladin is not mentioned

7:53

by Konyati's but is

7:55

detailed in a letter that

7:57

an unknown Latin source sent west

7:59

during Andronicus' reign. The

8:02

contents of the latter included a plan for the

8:04

Romans and Muslims to work together,

8:07

to destroy Utremir. At

8:10

which point, would gain control of

8:12

Jerusalem and various other cities

8:14

while Saladin would keep the rest.

8:18

Such a plot is pure

8:20

fantasy, but the gist of what

8:22

was being discussed may well be true.

8:25

It would fit into the centuries long

8:27

under standing between Constantinople

8:29

and Cairo. You

8:31

may remember that back in the reign of Basel

8:34

II, these two powers developed a

8:36

diplomatic status quo.

8:38

Enough space existed between them

8:40

to avoid direct conflict.

8:42

And the one thing which the emperor

8:44

always asked of the caliph was to

8:46

allow Orthodox priests to

8:48

be left in charge of the churches of the

8:50

holy land. Roman

8:53

emperors saw themselves as the head of

8:55

the Christian world, and their protection of

8:57

the holy sites had usually been respected

8:59

by the various Muslim

9:01

powers who controlled them. It's entirely

9:04

possible then that Andronicus had sent a

9:06

standard letter to Saladin, saying

9:09

that in the unlikely event that you become

9:11

master of Jerusalem, we would like

9:13

our former rights restored. As

9:16

ever, the confusion for the Latins was

9:18

the idea that the Byzantines would be

9:20

interested in suesoranti over

9:23

a place they did not physically

9:25

occupy. Hence, the

9:27

garbled interpretation of Roman

9:29

policy being aimed at the

9:31

capture of Jerusalem itself. That's

9:34

the best guess we have anyway about what

9:36

was going on. These

9:39

rumors were inflamed when Saladin

9:41

actually captured Jerusalem and

9:44

handed over control of the church of the holy

9:46

sepulcher to the local Orthodox clergy.

9:48

This seemed to confirm the worst

9:51

suspicions of the Latins, and soon

9:53

men and women in Utremir were writing

9:55

home to warn their fellow Latins

9:57

not to trust the Byzantines who,

9:59

outrageously, were working

10:01

with Saladin. On

10:03

this occasion, we actually have confirmation

10:06

from the Muslim sources that

10:08

negotiations were going on.

10:10

And as we suspected, Isaac

10:12

Angelos merely wrote to confirm that the rights of

10:14

his clergy would be respected. In

10:16

return, the emperor ordered

10:18

that the prayers said in

10:20

Constantinople's mosque would be

10:22

directed to the abbasid caliph in

10:24

bag dad from now on. For the

10:26

last two centuries, they had commemorated

10:28

the Fatimid caliph in Egypt,

10:30

who Saladin had just eliminated.

10:36

It was in a mood of mutual suspicion and

10:38

fear then that the Crusader armies

10:40

crossed into Byzantine territory on the

10:43

first of July eleven eighty

10:45

nine. Barbara Rosa

10:47

had just enjoyed a relatively trouble

10:49

free crossing of Hungary, where

10:51

King Bala had not only treated

10:53

him with all de respect and hospitality,

10:56

but had provided him with money and troops

10:58

to aid the crusade. Our

11:00

best estimate is that Barbarossa had

11:02

twenty thousand men at his back

11:04

as he crossed into the Balkans. The

11:08

Germans sent envoys ahead to

11:10

Constantinople while Barbarossa

11:12

was greeted by the Byzantine

11:14

Governor of Brannichheva. The

11:17

emperor was warmly greeted and given

11:19

gifts and set off south a few days

11:21

later, but almost immediately, things

11:23

started to go wrong. According

11:25

to the German accounts, they were directed down

11:27

the wrong road south, which hampered

11:30

their progress and they were

11:32

constantly attacked by local

11:34

bandits. Horse's were

11:36

stolen carts plundered and unarmed

11:38

pilgrims murdered. When

11:41

the Knights captured some of these thugs,

11:43

they confessed that the governor of

11:45

Brannet Shaver had directed them to

11:47

attack the Crusaders. This

11:50

could be an excuse, which the crooked hope

11:52

would help them avoid punishment, but

11:54

it's possible that the Romans had

11:56

encouraged the locals to attack the Latins

11:58

in order to soften them up and make them

12:00

more dependent on Byzantine

12:02

assistance. During the first and

12:04

second crusade, similar

12:06

incidents took

12:07

place. The next

12:10

stop on the journey was the town

12:12

of Nish, which the Romans had not rebuilt since

12:14

it was sacked by the Hungarians a few

12:16

years before. It was

12:18

being occupied by the forces of the

12:20

Serbian leader, Stefan Navalnya.

12:23

The Serbs welcomed the Germans warmly

12:25

and asked Barbarossa if he would officially

12:28

endorse their conquest of the town. Barbara

12:31

Rosa, whose only concern was to keep the

12:33

crusade on track, demured. Invoice

12:36

from the Bulgarians also visited

12:38

him and offered assistance against the

12:40

Romans. But again, Frederick

12:43

remained hopeful that Isaac would honor the

12:45

promises he'd made. Reports

12:50

of these meetings in Constantinople caused

12:53

serious alarm and feared Isaac's

12:55

fears that Barbaross' real target

12:57

was Constantinople, a paranoia

12:59

that was present every time the

13:01

Crusaders marched through the Balkans. The

13:05

Germans continued south but were

13:07

infuriated to find that the mountain

13:09

passes had been blocked with rocks

13:11

and felled trees. This

13:13

slowed them down considerably and left

13:15

them exposed to more attacks. Latin

13:18

accounts report arrows being fired at them

13:20

from the trees and goods being stolen

13:23

the night. Malaria and

13:25

dysentery also began to spread in the camp.

13:28

When the host finally reached

13:30

Sophia, the next Byzantine town, they

13:32

were further angered to find the

13:34

inhabitants had all fled taking their

13:36

food and supplies with them. Barbara

13:39

Rosa was becoming increasingly frustrated.

13:42

The Romans may not have been directly

13:44

opposing the crusade but they were

13:46

doing everything they could to slow its

13:48

progress and hamper morale.

13:54

The confused Roman response to the

13:56

Latin advance is well articulated

13:58

by our historian Nikitas

14:00

Coniartis. He says

14:02

that the inexperienced Isaac was

14:04

torn between those advising him to treat the

14:06

Crusaders as friends and those who

14:08

saw them as

14:09

enemies. The emperor vacillated.

14:12

The goal for Byzantine Emperors in these

14:15

scenarios is to be outwardly friendly

14:17

while inwardly firm. You want the

14:19

latins to feel accommodated, but you also want

14:21

them to be dependent on your largess.

14:24

This dependence will make

14:26

them obedient, it will stop them

14:28

from attacking your people and get them to

14:30

cross over to Anatolia in an

14:32

orderly fashion. These

14:35

tactics worked well for Alexias and

14:37

Manawil because they had the power to

14:39

back them up. But with

14:41

Isaac's realm in chaos, he was clearly

14:43

afraid that the Latins might take advantage

14:45

of him. With

14:47

little legitimacy to call upon, there was

14:49

every chance that Isaac would be stabbed in the

14:51

back by one of his nobles. Particularly

14:54

if the Latins lingered too long

14:56

on their lands. Presumably,

15:00

then his efforts to slow in a week in the

15:02

crusade were a clumsy attempt to even the

15:04

playing field, making them less

15:06

able to attack Constantinople itself.

15:09

But of course, it's a dangerous game.

15:11

At what point do your obstructions

15:14

become a provocation? Konyartis

15:19

was caught in the middle of all this. Since

15:21

the fall of Andronikis, his career

15:23

had been on the fast track. His

15:26

patron was good friends with

15:28

Isaac, and Nikitas' rhetorical

15:31

skills had been put to use to

15:33

praise the new regime. Koniatis

15:36

was therefore promoted to be

15:38

governor of Philippopoulos in the Central

15:40

Balkans, which would be the

15:42

Germans' next stop.

15:45

Our eyewitness reports that he

15:47

spent weeks strengthening the

15:49

defenses of the city, only then

15:51

to receive a letter from Isaac ordering

15:53

him to tear down some of the walls to

15:55

stop Barbara Rosa from being able

15:57

to use the city as a fortified

15:59

camp. Hilariously,

16:03

Konyartis also observed agents being

16:05

sent out to block the nearby mountain

16:07

passes, but they blocked the

16:09

wrong passes. And watched with horror as the

16:11

Germans made steady progress towards the

16:13

city. Given the

16:15

bad blood between the two sides Koniati's

16:17

decided to abandon Filipopolis at

16:19

this point. He didn't

16:21

strip the city of provisions though, meaning at

16:23

least the Latins had something to eat when

16:25

they

16:25

arrived. Not that this did

16:27

much to improve Barbaross'

16:29

mood. The emperor had

16:31

worked hard to maintain the

16:33

discipline of his army and stop them

16:35

from raiding the countryside. But

16:38

Isaac had failed to provide any

16:40

money or markets for his men and

16:42

their supplies had run out.

16:44

So Frederick had no choice at this

16:46

point, but to cut them loose.

16:48

The Latins found out

16:50

and began taking food from the

16:52

locals. Koniati's

16:56

and his subordinates joined a

16:58

small Byzantine Army nearby sent

17:00

to shadow the Germans. But Frederick's

17:03

forces were alarmed when they discovered them and

17:05

launched a surprise attack which quickly

17:07

scattered the Roman troops.

17:10

At this point, Isaac finally made

17:13

diplomatic contact with his opposite

17:14

number. Unfortunately, it

17:17

was to inform Frederick that the envoys

17:19

he'd sent ahead had been arrested and

17:22

were being held in response

17:24

to Barbaross' meeting with the

17:26

Serbs and Bulgarians. This

17:28

angered the Germans who saw the arrest of the

17:31

envoy as an act of

17:33

war and found the grandiloquent tone

17:35

of the envoy's insulting.

17:39

Isaac had also referred to Frederick

17:41

as king of the Germans rather

17:43

than emperor of the Romans in his

17:45

letter, which was a major faux pas.

17:47

Isaac's letter demanded

17:49

new hostages be sent to guarantee

17:51

the crusade's good behavior. Once

17:53

they were sent, Mark would

17:55

be opened in accordance with the original

17:58

agreement. Frederick restrained

18:01

himself and simply responded that

18:03

when his invoice was set

18:04

free, he would be happy to talk

18:06

about sending fresh hostages.

18:08

Meanwhile, he gave his men

18:10

further licensed to assault the

18:12

Byzantine countryside to gather the provisions they

18:15

needed. This stated easily

18:17

capturing the surrounding towns and ports.

18:20

This was a darkly

18:22

serious

18:22

matter. The Crusaders were turning

18:25

into an enemy army occupying

18:28

Roman lands at the point of a

18:29

sword. By now,

18:34

it was November, and Barbara

18:36

Rosa realized that because of the delays he'd

18:38

faced, he would need to winter in

18:40

Byzantine territory. He

18:42

therefore marched south and captured the

18:44

city of Adrianople. His

18:47

subordinate spread out across Thrace taking

18:49

what they needed from the peasantry and

18:51

occupying more fortresses. Isaac

18:54

continued to change his mind.

18:57

Kaniartis was now back at the capital

18:59

and told Isaac what he'd learned.

19:02

The emperor was shocked to hear that many Latins actually

19:04

believed he was in league with

19:06

Saladin. He reopened negotiations

19:10

with Barbarossa peace seemed

19:12

close at

19:12

hand. But when he was

19:15

told that the Germans would be staying

19:17

all winter, became angry and

19:19

began making unreasonable demands.

19:21

It's easy to

19:24

see Isaac as a bungling fool as

19:26

I think Konyartis did,

19:28

but I feel great sympathy

19:30

for

19:30

him.

19:30

He was facing down the possibility of

19:33

Constantinople being captured, his

19:36

flailing is an understandable reaction

19:38

to the immense pressure he was

19:41

under. In

19:43

response to this latest delay, though, Frederick

19:45

finally gave in to the Hawks in

19:47

his camp. He wrote home

19:49

telling his son to begin

19:52

preparations for an assault on

19:54

Constantinople. More men

19:56

and money must be sent, and the Italian

19:58

fleets should be recruited

20:00

to the

20:01

cause. In order to surround the Byzantine

20:04

capital the following

20:05

spring. Isaac's intransigence

20:08

had managed to start the

20:11

very war he was trying to avoid. Fortunately,

20:17

cooler heads prevailed. Barbara Rosa

20:20

had no choice but to attack by Xantium

20:22

if he wanted to cross the sea,

20:24

but he didn't really want to.

20:27

And the Italian fleets would cost a fortune to hire

20:29

and probably take six months

20:31

to be

20:31

ready. Isaac for his part

20:34

changed his tune and began to

20:36

make friendlier. Over to

20:37

us. In the

20:39

New Year, a deal was brokered

20:41

and signed at Adrianople in

20:43

February eleven

20:44

ninety. Isaac

20:46

would provide the necessary ships to

20:48

transport the Crusaders over to

20:51

Anatolia where they would find markets

20:53

waiting for

20:54

them. Gifts of money and silks were handed

20:56

over, and no compensation was sought

20:58

for the damage done to Thrace by

21:01

months of Latin occupation. Frederick,

21:05

for his part, would restrain

21:07

his men from ravaging the countryside in

21:09

anatolia. Five hundred

21:11

leading men from both sides

21:14

gathered India here sofia on the

21:16

twenty second of February to swear

21:18

to honor the agreement. Isaac

21:21

sent eighteen hostages to remain in the

21:23

German camp until the crusade

21:26

passed from Byzantine territory. The

21:32

absolute worst case scenario had

21:34

been avoided, but this whole episode

21:36

was a humiliation. For

21:38

byzantium. First, the Hungarians, then

21:41

the Normans, now the Crusaders.

21:44

Byzantine control of the

21:46

Balkans was merely an illusion. Its

21:48

people had little reason not to throw

21:50

in their lot with the Serbs and

21:53

Bulgarians. The

21:57

occupation by the Latins had also

21:59

seen anti Byzantine propaganda

22:01

spread like wildfire. The Latin

22:04

ambassadors claimed that they had been

22:06

humiliated in front of representatives of

22:08

Saladin, which seems

22:10

unlikely. They claimed that the

22:12

patriarch had encouraged his

22:14

congregation to murder any latins they came across,

22:16

which clearly didn't happen.

22:19

And that poisoned wine

22:21

barrels were being circulated in

22:23

Thrace kill Crusaders.

22:25

All this nonsense fueled

22:28

a sense that the Orthodox were not

22:30

real Christians, and beneath the

22:32

contempt of men on

22:34

crusade. Nasty incidents

22:36

took place including a church being burnt

22:38

down on spurious grounds.

22:40

It's not hard to imagine in this

22:43

atmosphere how Constantinople could

22:45

be turned into a legitimate target

22:47

by the Latins. Barbara

22:53

Rosa and his men made their way to

22:55

Galipoli where they were ferried to Asia,

22:58

the Imperial Navy. It

23:00

was late March when the last

23:02

Latins touched down and the

23:04

crusade spent the next month marching

23:06

south towards Philadelphia.

23:09

Again, they complained that the

23:11

locals kept attacking them.

23:13

It's doubtful that this was done on

23:15

Isaacs' orders, He had no incentive

23:17

to delay the Latins any further.

23:19

It was probably just local

23:22

opportunism. By the twenty

23:24

first of April, the Latins arrived

23:26

at Philadelphia, but

23:29

Theodore Mangafas had failed to

23:31

prepare the size of market that

23:33

the Crusaders required. Small

23:36

contingents of Latins had to be

23:38

let into the city to buy food and

23:40

inevitably a brawl broke

23:42

out. The Latins were

23:44

arrested and held overnight. A

23:46

major diplomatic incident

23:48

could have

23:48

unfolded, but the governor begged for Barbaross'

23:51

forgiveness and the matter was quickly

23:53

resolved.

23:54

The crusade

23:56

now moved east along the Mayanda Valley

23:59

and eventually out of Roman

24:01

territory. It

24:02

had been a miserable year

24:04

for Isaac Angulos He was an

24:07

inexperienced emperor and it had

24:09

shown. His indecision had

24:11

very nearly brought the empire to

24:13

the brink of catastrophe. He

24:15

badly needed a victory to help secure

24:17

his hold on power. And the

24:19

obvious threat to face down was the

24:21

growing Bulgarian revolt.

24:23

In our next

24:24

regular episode, Isaac will march

24:26

out again against Peter and

24:29

arson, while still more pretenders will

24:31

rise against

24:32

him. Across the

24:33

empire. For those

24:36

of you who would like to follow Frederick Barbarossa,

24:39

as he crosses the plateau, I

24:41

have recorded a special episode about the rest

24:43

of the third crusade.

24:45

That episode will be available

24:47

on Patreon in a few days time

24:49

at the six dollar a month patronage

24:52

level. Just go to

24:54

patreon dot com forward slash history of by

24:56

Byzantium to sign

24:57

up. If you

24:58

do, you can hear how Barbarossa gets

25:00

on when he reaches Mirio Caffelon.

25:03

And we'll talk about the French king

25:05

and Richard the

25:07

Lionheart. Who will be sailing to Utrumia sometime

25:10

later.

25:10

If you pay six dollars to get your hands

25:13

on that Patreon podcast feed,

25:15

You will also get access to every other

25:18

bonus episode of the history of byzantium that's

25:20

ever been produced. John Chris

25:22

Austin, porphyrias, the charioteer,

25:24

women in the Roman world, the

25:26

capture of Jerusalem in the first

25:28

crusade, all just for six

25:30

dollars. And you can cancel your sub

25:32

anytime you like. I mean, come

25:34

on. That's an insane offer. You'd have

25:36

to be crazy not to take it

25:38

up. Anyway, I'll stop shilling

25:40

like a Byzantine Merchant at the side of the

25:42

road and let you audio pilgrims

25:44

go past. Onto your

25:46

next destination. Introducing

25:56

a

26:01

self, a new about real people

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who are challenging their relationship to money

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to build a better future for

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themselves. My

26:08

new focus is like, As these

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good things happen

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in my life, I want to be able to enjoy

26:13

them. They're loved ones.

26:15

Natalie,

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I really don't want my daughters. I 1

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one for nothing. Home. Now it's kind

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of

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backfired because Maddie really don't

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have no respect for me. And

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their communities. I want to create

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Self is live now with new episodes

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everyone 1. Listen and subscribe

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wherever you get your podcasts.