0:01

Hey, I'm very excited to share that our

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Mermaid Palace and Radiotopia,

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welcome. To

0:55

the heart. I'm

1:00

Caitlin Prest. What

1:04

you're about to hear is the third episode of

1:07

a series that my friend

1:10

Jess Shane made. The

1:12

reason why I picked the third episode is because

1:14

it tells the story of

1:17

a certain kind of intimacy. It's

1:19

a kind of intimacy and a kind of

1:21

boundary confusion that I am very familiar with.

1:25

It's the intimacy that develops when

1:27

you have set out to document

1:31

somebody else's life experience. Up

1:34

until very recently, when I

1:36

did a series with my sister where

1:39

we realized that boundaries

1:41

would save our relationship, I

1:44

basically treat every single person on the

1:47

face of the earth with the degree

1:49

of intimacy that most

1:52

people reserve exclusively for best

1:54

friends, family members, and

1:58

life partners. I

2:01

have traditionally had a very hard

2:03

time. Understanding

2:05

what boundaries or for.

2:08

Especially. In a professional

2:10

context. I've learned my

2:12

lesson. On multiple occasions

2:14

in a variety of different.

2:17

Extremely painful ways. Listening.

2:20

To this episode. Made.

2:23

Me feel a little bit less alone. About.

2:27

The thing that I find naturally happens

2:30

when you spend time with people asking

2:32

them questions about really deep and intense

2:34

things that have happened in their life.

2:38

I've. Always had a hard time. Leaving

2:40

things at the door, This is

2:43

why I had to quit doing social

2:45

work early in my life when I

2:47

thought that that was going to be

2:49

my job. I didn't really understand why

2:51

you wouldn't extend whatever supporter. Help you

2:54

had to people who are struggling. I

2:56

didn't understand why you would maintain

2:58

limits around the kinds of things

3:00

he might talk about with somebody

3:02

that you see every day. And

3:05

my mind, it was like just

3:07

because our relationship began. Because.

3:09

Of something clear and specific.

3:13

And may be a little bit transactional. I

3:15

couldn't figure out. How not to

3:17

care about. The entire person.

3:21

And if I was in a position to help, I would. Having

3:25

the exact kind as intimacy

3:27

and boundary confusion. That

3:29

I've often had on spending a lot of

3:31

time with somebody. Interviewing them about

3:34

their life, So.

3:37

This. Episode is the third

3:39

episode of Just Chains five

3:41

part series. The. Series

3:44

isn't just about getting close to

3:46

people that you're working with. It's.

3:49

About something much bigger than that. It's

3:52

about the fundamental premise. Of

3:54

this type of work. Documentary.

3:56

Work. Getting. Paid. Calling

3:59

yourself. The and all of

4:01

telling other people's stories. Accumulating

4:04

prestige as a result of it.

4:07

And. All. Of

4:09

the ethical quandaries. That

4:12

are embedded in these practices. In

4:14

the first. In the second episode, Jess

4:17

shines a light on the ethical problems

4:19

about the traditional ways that the industry

4:21

approaches this and she tries to do

4:23

something different. By the time we get

4:26

to the third episode just has put

4:28

out a call on Craigslist asking for

4:30

people who want to share their stories

4:33

and a documentary double go out. On.

4:36

Radio Till A Presents. She shared

4:38

with them what this project is about. Just

4:40

has broken a few typical documentary rules

4:42

rules that I've always thought were total

4:44

bullshit. The first one being that you're

4:46

not supposed to pay your subjects. She's

4:48

agreed to pay. The people were being

4:51

interviewed and. She's agreed to collaboratively figure

4:53

out what the stories are going to

4:55

look like. The. Second episode features

4:58

a man named Ernesto and this

5:00

episode features. A woman named

5:02

Duty. The woman. That just ended up

5:05

getting pretty involved with. This

5:07

entire thing is really about boundaries. At the end of

5:09

the day, This. Is.

5:12

Sacking Heartbreaking. Transformative.

5:15

By. Just shame. On Radio Toby

5:17

A. Presents. Hi.

5:19

A. Quick note that this show is serialized,

5:21

so make sure to listen to the

5:23

episodes in order. Is

5:27

Eight am on a blustery falls a in

5:29

early September and I'm waiting my the doors

5:31

at a church in Upper Manhattan. The door

5:34

singles and and there's Judy. She's

5:36

a white woman in her early seventies. The

5:39

shoulder length gray wavy hair and kind eyes.

5:43

Are Sunni. Thing

5:48

is, Judy live in

5:50

Search. It doubles as a shelter

5:53

for residents have to zero all

5:55

their things at eight am every

5:57

day. So judy me several trips

5:59

to. We remove seven large reusable shopping

6:01

bags, all packed to the brim.

6:04

Then the church doors close, and

6:06

Judy uses a car window as a mirror to

6:09

brush out her hair. These are

6:11

little things that we won't have. Now

6:13

you learn to... ...care of them? Judy

6:16

is the next documentary subject I've got lined up.

6:18

And since she has to be out of the

6:20

shelter all day, we've planned to head over to

6:22

a nearby diner to talk. I

6:25

offer to carry some of her back. I need some.

6:27

Oh my God! I have a right to

6:29

be in charge. No,

6:31

no, no. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm just... I know.

6:34

I'm just amazed that they're so heavy. Are

6:36

yours not heavy? Judy's

6:43

life has been particularly chaotic since we

6:45

first met. So while I'm

6:48

now almost finished gathering tape with Ernesto,

6:50

and have already scheduled preliminary interviews with

6:52

my two other subjects, Judy

6:54

has been difficult to coordinate with. So,

6:58

Judy, I have a question for you. We met

7:00

because I'm making this series. Do

7:02

you still want to do the series? I

7:04

know that you're dealing with a ton of stuff. It's

7:06

just like on my end, if you don't want

7:08

to be involved, then I

7:10

just need to know sooner. Right

7:13

now I'm open-minded. I'm not

7:16

saying one way or the other, but

7:19

I'm not. I'm not. I'm

7:23

not saying that. I'm not seeing a level right

7:25

now. I

7:54

want my priority. This

8:00

is Shocking Harmony Transplanted.

8:14

After my auditions, I book preliminary

8:17

interviews with all my subjects. I

8:20

record with Ernesto first. And

8:22

soon after that, I meet up with Michael, a middle-aged

8:25

black writer and rapper recently out

8:27

of prison. Michael

8:29

is super tall, 6'6", with

8:31

glasses, a close-crop fade, and

8:34

a slow grace to his movements that's

8:36

surprising for his size. I

8:38

joined the gang in this

8:40

park. That's where I got initiated at.

8:42

I'm like a hood legend in

8:45

this park, Bristol park. Yeah. Everybody knows

8:47

me. Michael and I decide

8:49

to have our first meeting in his

8:51

childhood neighborhood of Brownsville in Brooklyn, because

8:54

he says this is where his

8:56

story began. It's just a

8:59

typical hood story. Like

9:01

a person comes from a bad

9:03

neighborhood and bad things happen. But

9:06

a lot of the stories end tragically too. My

9:09

story didn't end tragically, so now the sky's the

9:11

limit for me. Michael

9:13

is a writer and has a lot of

9:15

ideas about what makes a good story. He

9:18

recently completed a program that

9:20

teaches formerly incarcerated people about

9:23

public speaking. He

9:25

shares some structural suggestions that he was

9:27

taught that might apply to our documentary

9:29

about him. They wanted us to

9:31

keep it short and they wanted to tell us how

9:33

to start it in the beginning, how

9:35

to do the middle part, you know, to

9:38

keep the people in like suspense so that

9:40

way people will be interested in your story.

9:45

A week after meeting Michael, I sit down

9:47

with Jess, a Hawaiian punk

9:49

musician in their early twenties who recently

9:51

learned they're adopted. Heavily

9:53

tattooed with a bunch of facial

9:56

piercings. Jess's aesthetic is tough, but

9:58

underneath they're obviously. softy.

10:00

Honestly, I feel like my

10:03

headspace has been pretty awful these

10:06

past couple of days. I feel

10:08

like sometimes talking helps me

10:10

a lot. In our first

10:12

interview, Jess is quick to open up

10:15

with some of the emotional upheaval of

10:17

being newly connected to their bio family,

10:19

who until recently they didn't even know existed.

10:21

I've been wanting siblings for so long and

10:24

to find out I have exactly what I

10:26

wanted, like a younger one and

10:28

an older one. I felt

10:30

very pressured to have this perfect

10:32

relationship with them because it's everything I wanted,

10:35

I can't fuck it up. Like

10:38

with Ernesto, in these first interviews, I'm just

10:40

trying to get to know Michael and Jess,

10:42

to narrow in on what their stories might

10:44

be. I wrap up

10:47

our conversations and tell them I'll circle back

10:49

soon. I

10:53

reach out to Judy a few different times to

10:55

try to book an interview, but I don't hear

10:57

back. I don't want to give up

10:59

on her though, because out of everyone I

11:01

met, Judy is the person I've

11:03

been most excited to talk to. When

11:07

Judy showed up to her audition, I

11:10

started with my standard spiel about my

11:12

project. I'm interested in talking to people

11:14

who have interesting life experience that

11:16

they want to share for some reason,

11:20

and who are interested in having conversations

11:22

about what it means to

11:24

share that experience. Why

11:26

are you laughing? That's kind of loaded. I've

11:28

done this spiel 30 times by this

11:30

point, but Judy was the only

11:33

person to press me about the media

11:35

criticism portion of my project. The media

11:38

has tremendous impact on people's

11:40

lives. I don't want

11:42

to stray from myself, because you want my

11:44

story. No, this is part of it. I'm

11:47

just citing an example of something that happened

11:49

a couple of days ago. There was a

11:51

man who... She told me about an article

11:53

she'd read that week in the New York

11:56

Post. It was about an unhoused man who

11:58

had built a shelter for him. himself on

12:00

the Manhattan Bridge. She said

12:02

it was this story that alerted the

12:04

city of the man's presence, which then

12:06

prompted a violent eviction. Sure,

12:09

they were trying to get readers

12:11

to read about the unusual

12:13

aspect of this man's life, but

12:16

did they think this thing through? I

12:19

thought it was reckless and

12:21

irresponsible. Judy's understanding of the

12:23

stakes of my project was exciting to me.

12:26

Judy herself was exciting to me. I

12:29

liked her outspokenness. I actually wanted

12:31

to contact the reporter and

12:33

confront him on this. Our

12:36

shared interests. I was always interested in

12:38

the arts, and I

12:40

majored in art and art

12:42

history. Me too. On

12:44

some level, it comforted me that we had

12:47

a shared class background. I

12:49

had the blessing of

12:52

growing up with privilege.

12:55

And it seemed like the recognition was mutual. We're

12:57

going to get along. Yeah.

13:00

Yeah. When

13:08

Judy told me about her husband, Richard, and

13:10

how she ended up living in a shelter,

13:12

my heart especially went out to her.

13:15

When Richard got sick, he

13:17

couldn't work. We fell

13:19

behind in the rent. We

13:21

were taken to housing court

13:23

for nonpayment. And

13:26

during the litigation process in the

13:28

housing court, Richard

13:31

died, leaving me in a

13:34

state of complete panic. And

13:37

unlike Ernesto, or Michael, or Jess for

13:39

that matter, Judy seemed to

13:41

know exactly what she wanted out of participating

13:43

in this series. Understandably, I

13:45

think you have sort of distrust of

13:47

the media. Yeah. But I'm

13:49

part of the media. Right. Is there anything you

13:51

want to get clear with me? I'll

13:54

tell you the truth. What my aspiration

13:56

is for my environment in this project

13:58

of yours. My goal is to get. my loss

14:01

back on track to become

14:03

normal again, need to be

14:05

considered unstably housed or homeless.

14:08

I would like to contribute

14:10

something to society to share

14:12

with the audience the fact

14:14

that homelessness it can happen to

14:16

anybody. And

14:19

maybe somebody listening might give

14:22

me a chance. Never

14:24

know. When

14:28

I cast Judy, she seemed excited,

14:31

grateful even. But I

14:33

felt like the lucky one. Her big

14:35

personality and critical thinking, they seemed

14:37

like just the right ingredients for

14:39

my documentary project. But

14:42

getting in touch with her was another story.

14:44

I'm sorry, the person you were trying to

14:46

reach has a voicemail box that has not

14:48

been set up yet. Please try your call

14:50

again later. Goodbye. Her phone

14:52

would ring but never connect. For

14:55

weeks, the only text I got from her said,

14:57

I'll call you back. But

14:59

I wouldn't get a call. And

15:01

then I got this massive frantic novel

15:03

of a text message, mostly in all

15:06

caps. It was about

15:08

an impending eviction, a court case,

15:10

an evil landlord, and a negligent

15:12

lawyer. It

15:15

was actually pretty hard to understand. So

15:18

I followed up with a phone call. Yes.

15:21

Hi, Judy. Oh, boy, what a day.

15:23

I sent you a text message. I don't know if

15:25

you got any. You got the chance to look at

15:27

it. I did. Yes, I did. Judy

15:29

explained to me that a court

15:31

case about her old apartment got

15:33

postponed in the COVID moratorium on

15:35

evictions. Judy might be

15:37

able to move back into her old apartment

15:40

if she can cover the unpaid rent from

15:42

the past three years. The

15:45

landlord's attorney calculated that the

15:47

rental read this is $58,000.

15:50

So... Oh, my

15:52

God. She tells me

15:54

that a big part of why she needs

15:57

to get back into that specific apartment is

15:59

because her landlord is formally agreed to

16:01

accept something called a rental assistance

16:03

voucher. Theoretically, this voucher could

16:05

pay Judy's rent in her apartment for

16:07

the rest of her life. From

16:10

the sounds of it, Judy has six weeks to raise

16:12

almost $60,000. But if she pulls it off, it's possible

16:18

she'll be able to move back into her

16:20

old apartment. I feel like

16:22

I'm in a six-ring service.

16:25

Some high stakes for my Judy documentary.

16:28

It's a very dirty business. This

16:30

is like a classic villainization of

16:32

homelessness, which is really a state-created

16:34

problem. He is so correct. He is

16:36

so correct. There's

16:39

just one hitch. I don't

16:41

know anything about housing law or evictions

16:43

or rent vouchers. I

16:45

reach out to my lawyer friend, Alex. Hey,

16:48

hey. Hello. She

16:51

works on policy to decriminalize homelessness.

16:53

Yes, so Judy. Yeah.

16:56

I know that Judy sent you that text message. Have

16:58

you heard anything else from her? I

17:01

tell Alex about Judy's situation, and she

17:03

has a lot of questions. Why

17:05

is Judy even living in a shelter when

17:07

her eviction case is still active? Alex

17:10

asks me to ask Judy if she'd like

17:12

Alex to look into her case. Alex

17:15

thinks she might be able to offer some

17:17

support to Judy's attorney, as well

17:19

as to offer Judy some clarity about

17:21

the actions her attorney has or

17:24

hasn't been taking. I try

17:26

to follow up with Judy about scheduling a time to

17:28

talk in person. I figure when

17:30

we finally meet, I can tell her about

17:32

Alex's offer. I'm sorry. The

17:34

person you were trying to reach has a voicemail

17:36

box that has not been set up yet, but

17:38

another week of missed calls goes by. And

17:41

when Judy finally writes back, she

17:43

says that because of how vulnerable she

17:45

is right now, she can't

17:47

commit to anything that isn't directly

17:49

contributing to solving her legal issues,

17:52

including being part of my

17:54

documentary. My

17:56

heart sinks. I feel

17:58

conflicted. I understand where she's

18:01

coming from, and I don't want to put

18:03

anything more on her plate. At

18:05

the same time, I think her situation

18:07

could be a valuable setup to meaningfully explore

18:09

how people can fall through the holes in

18:11

the social safety net and wind up unhoused.

18:14

Plus, for more than a month now, I've

18:17

been banking on working with Judy on this

18:19

series, and I don't have a backup

18:21

plan. Then

18:24

I read Judy's text again. I

18:27

can't commit to anything that isn't

18:30

directly contributing to solving my legal

18:32

problems. In

18:35

a sense, it's not actually a

18:37

no. Is it an

18:39

invitation? Maybe even a challenge?

18:43

Maybe this is the opportunity I've

18:46

been looking for, for a fair

18:48

documentary exchange. Maybe somebody listening might

18:52

give me a tiz. You never

18:54

know. I learned working

18:56

with Ernesto that letting a documentary

18:58

subject lead comes with all kinds

19:00

of challenges. But

19:03

this is something different. Judy

19:05

seems to be proposing that she'll

19:07

let me document her, and

19:10

in exchange, I'll use

19:12

my skills, platform, and privilege

19:15

to help her improve her

19:17

circumstances. In

19:19

some ways, this setup sounds more

19:21

fair and more transparent than the

19:23

usual documentary arrangement. The

19:26

give and take is much clearer and

19:28

more direct than some vague notion of

19:30

the power and promise of storytelling. I

19:34

text Judy back, and I tell her about my

19:37

friend Alex, how I think Alex might be able

19:39

to help. I ask Judy if

19:41

we can all meet up. For

19:43

once, Judy texts back within seconds. Thank

19:46

you, she writes. I'm a

19:48

strong believer in win-win situations. And

20:00

that's how I find myself carrying Judy's

20:03

shockingly heavy bags to a legal meeting

20:05

on a windy September morning. Hold

20:07

up in a bustling diner, Alex patiently

20:10

explained what she's learned from Judy's attorney.

20:13

I didn't record this meeting, but I'm going to give you

20:15

a recap. So, we start

20:17

by talking about that rental assistance voucher

20:19

that Judy already told me about. The

20:22

one that could, theoretically, pay her

20:24

future rent in her old apartment.

20:27

Getting set up for that voucher is

20:29

worth doing as soon as possible, because

20:31

it's something concrete that Judy's attorney can

20:33

point to as a good argument for

20:36

postponing her upcoming eviction. And

20:38

according to Alex, this should be

20:40

pretty straightforward. The biggest hurdle is

20:43

that Judy will have to move out

20:45

of the Church Run shelter where she's been

20:47

living for years now and into a different

20:49

City Run shelter. At

20:53

first, Judy isn't interested in moving. She

20:56

doubts that any new shelter will be

20:58

better than her current situation, or even

21:00

that moving will actually get her closer

21:02

to securing that voucher. But

21:04

Alex is one step ahead. She calls

21:07

up Judy's caseworker for backup. Not

21:10

only does he confirm what Alex

21:12

has said, but he also discovers,

21:14

in real time, that through some

21:16

bureaucratic loophole, Judy's voucher application has

21:18

already gone through and been approved

21:20

early. She

21:22

will still have to move shelters

21:24

in order to ensure that the

21:26

application stays active, but otherwise, this

21:28

voucher is in the bag. The

21:31

caseworker also lets us know that because Judy

21:34

is a senior, she'll have priority getting a

21:36

single room at the new shelter, and likely

21:38

will be able to move within the week.

21:42

Two coffee refills later, Judy has

21:44

done a 180 on the idea

21:46

of changing shelters, and the

21:48

elusive rent voucher is finally within reach.

21:53

And this opens up a

21:55

whole universe to me of

21:57

options. bench

22:00

in a little parquet between two wide streets.

22:03

She is absolutely elated. On this

22:05

very day, the deadline

22:07

for me to hand over $60,000

22:09

to my landlord

22:11

in Brooklyn, which

22:16

I had sleepless nights over,

22:18

turned out that I

22:21

was awarded the voucher. But

22:24

this isn't quite right. The

22:26

truth is that her decision to

22:28

move only ensures that she qualifies

22:30

for the voucher. It won't

22:32

actually kick in until the rent debt has been

22:34

paid, and the apartment will have

22:36

to pass a safety inspection. But

22:39

it's definitely a step in the right direction.

22:41

And for the moment, the future

22:43

looks brighter. So

22:46

Judy, what do you want to do now?

22:48

We're going to celebrate. This is a major,

22:50

major event. And just

22:52

enjoy the fact that we're

22:54

alive. It's amazing to see

22:57

Judy like this. And to know

22:59

that just by connecting her with the right resource,

23:01

I was a small part of helping her get here. And

23:05

the cherry on top. Judy is back

23:07

on board with the documentary. The

23:29

possibility of supporting Judy and gathering tape

23:31

for my series along the way, tape

23:34

that will surely illuminate the complex

23:36

nature of homelessness as per Judy's

23:39

goals, it somehow

23:41

feels clear, feels right. I'm

23:43

a little elated too, to be honest. And

23:46

then Judy rifles in her bag

23:48

and pulls out a packaged brownie. Can

23:59

we share? You're my honored guest. This

24:01

is a big brownie. There's enough for both of us. So you'll eat

24:03

it on two separate occasions. Oh, come on. Yes,

24:05

we have. Put everything in the bag. I really don't

24:07

want to take this from you. Oh,

24:09

but actually, Judy, remember? So

24:12

I actually owe you $40. What? Yes. $20

24:15

an hour. I'm not going to pay you for it. I'm not going to pay you

24:17

for it. I'm not going to pay you for it. I'm not going to pay you

24:19

for it. I'm not going to pay you for it. Go

24:31

away. Go away. It's my

24:33

privilege to spend time with you. My goodness.

24:35

I'll take this as long as you take

24:38

that. Oh. Win-win

24:41

situation. Judy

24:52

and I agree to keep in touch

24:54

about our respective projects. Judy,

25:02

would you mind if I re-try recording some

25:04

of this meeting so the person? I don't

25:06

know. That's okay. It's

25:10

late September now, and Judy and I

25:12

are meeting near the city-run shelter she's

25:14

just moved into. The

25:17

new shelter is a big step up from the old

25:19

one. I'm disappointed to hear

25:21

that it's not quite the single room

25:23

she was promised. The

25:25

walls are more like cubicle dividers, so

25:27

there's no privacy. It's

25:29

loud and crowded, and police cars are

25:32

always parked outside. But for

25:34

the first time in years, Judy doesn't

25:36

have to be outside all day, rain or

25:38

shine, carrying heavy bags of

25:40

stuff around. You

25:43

know, just I reflect

25:45

back on this whole experience, and

25:47

I think for myself, I

25:49

lived through that during the whole duration

25:51

of the pandemic. When

25:54

there was nowhere to go, there was

25:56

times throughout the whole city. It's

25:59

insane. Oh, they say, there was

26:01

an assumption that everybody had a home.

26:04

That's something that's interesting,

26:06

journalistically speaking. Oh, totally.

26:09

And Judy seems overall energized by

26:11

the change, which makes me feel

26:13

energized too. But

26:18

there's still so much to be done before

26:20

we can get the voucher activated. We've

26:23

got to raise close to $60,000 and

26:25

make sure the apartment will pass a

26:27

health and safety inspection. And we

26:30

only have a few months. But

26:32

Alex and I have made a plan. She

26:35

is going to collaborate with Judy's attorney

26:37

on legal strategy and fundraising, and I'm

26:39

going to work with Judy on getting

26:41

her apartment ready for inspection. During

26:44

our meeting with Alex, Judy clarified

26:46

why she's currently homeless, even though

26:49

she was never actually evicted. When

26:51

her husband Richard was going through cancer treatment,

26:54

the couple was forced to move into a

26:56

hotel, because in Richard's state, he

26:58

could no longer access their third floor

27:00

home. To save money,

27:02

the couple got rid of two storage

27:05

units and dumped all their contents into

27:07

the apartment, which by that point

27:09

they weren't using anyhow. So now

27:11

the place is too full of stuff to live

27:13

in. And Judy's worried about

27:16

how hard it will be to clear everything

27:18

out. Do you think that

27:20

we could get into the apartment and

27:22

just spend two days and go through the

27:25

stuff? There's no room. I put everything in

27:27

the front. This place is packed. We

27:30

can open the door and take out the stuff by the

27:32

door. We can do it bit by bit. I

27:34

don't know. There's no order whatsoever. No,

27:37

no order. And it

27:39

will take literally the

27:41

longest period of time for me to

27:44

sort things out. But we

27:46

don't have the longest period of time before

27:48

the eviction. So right now, you have two

27:51

weeks. I know that's not enough

27:53

time. Of course it's not enough time. But

27:56

we haven't figured out how to pay

27:58

for it. Who's

28:00

going to move this stuff? Like

28:02

any good producer, for every problem

28:04

Judy raises, I have a

28:06

solution. Like, we could go

28:08

today, you know, we could start. It's

28:11

not that simple. Things are

28:13

just piled up, one is tough, and the

28:15

other was no, was total disorder. I

28:18

happen to be extremely good at making order out

28:20

of disorder. Well... In

28:23

the weeks that follow, we have a lot of

28:25

meetings and a lot of different coffee shops. Do

28:28

you want to talk about sort of the

28:30

strategy to get some of the most precious things,

28:33

or... Well, I still

28:35

believe that the boss use of our

28:37

time together is getting Judy's apartment

28:39

in order and recovering

28:41

her essential possessions for safekeeping.

28:44

But Judy wants to do more research about

28:46

her rights around the eviction. Let

28:48

me ask you something. There is a phone number. It's

28:51

called New York City Court

28:54

Answers. Those things are like, can we

28:56

look that up and see if somebody

28:58

answers the phone? We wait on hold,

29:01

get passed between departments for 30 minutes

29:03

or so. Good afternoon, House

29:05

Inc. Court Answers. Can I get you a name?

29:08

My name is Judy. It's

29:11

a dead end. I

29:14

take it as an opportunity to refocus. Judy,

29:17

not so much. I'd

29:19

like to brainstorm with you ideas

29:22

we would present to the

29:24

housing court to judge anything we can

29:26

do to outline arguments.

29:30

I think which helps them. Sure.

29:33

I mean, I'm happy to do that. And

29:35

sometimes Judy's plans seem a

29:37

little unrealistic, particularly when it

29:40

comes to the back rent she owes. Make

29:43

the amount instead of 60, make it

29:45

like 20 and let him

29:47

allow me to stay there for a few months,

29:49

like four or five months. And

29:52

then it'll be a win-win situation.

29:55

This is not lining up with the

29:58

strategic plan I made with Alex. Maybe

30:01

Judy just needs more time to steal

30:03

herself for some really big changes. At

30:06

the same time, there are other

30:08

parts of this series I'm supposed to be working

30:10

on. Hey Jess, I

30:13

would love to like do a follow-up interview whenever you're

30:15

free and have the time to. And

30:17

yeah. Michael and Jess

30:20

are reaching out every so often about our

30:22

next interviews. You're gonna call when you

30:24

get the message. Please don't. In

30:27

October, I slow-pedal them. I

30:30

explain that I'm working with a small team, that

30:32

things with the project are hectic and I'm still getting

30:35

my ducks in a row. And it's

30:37

true. I'm wrapping up recording

30:39

with Ernesto, wrestling with his tape. But

30:42

my work shadowing and researching for Judy

30:44

takes up the brunt of my time.

30:47

And by November, things are still on the

30:49

back burner with Michael and Jess. And

30:51

I've legitimately started feeling flaky. I

30:55

haven't circled back as I promised months

30:57

ago. And although I've

30:59

requested that they stay tuned, the

31:01

reality is that between Ernesto and the

31:04

deep Judy rabbit hole I've continued to

31:06

tumble down, I just don't have

31:08

a lot of time. In

31:11

November, Judy and I meet again, this

31:13

time at a pizza shop. For

31:16

now, Judy's attorney has managed to

31:18

get another short extension of her

31:20

eviction. Between Kafkaesque

31:22

phone calls and brainstorming Hail

31:25

Mary negotiation strategies, Judy

31:27

and I are coming to care about each other. I

31:47

get to know the daily drama at the shelter.

31:55

About her late husband. I

31:57

will declare this, that Richard is

32:00

and was my soul mate. She

32:03

begins to open up. I've already lost

32:05

my husband, so you know, tangible

32:08

things give me some comfort.

32:11

I come to understand that this is the

32:13

crux of her fear of losing the apartment.

32:15

I sort of mentally shut down somewhat when

32:17

I get very overwhelmed. Which

32:21

clarifies why Judy sometimes disappears for

32:23

weeks on end. But I know

32:25

that, you know, shutting down is

32:27

not where it's at. Yeah, I

32:29

mean that makes sense. I feel like that happens

32:31

to everybody. And you're dealing with so much overwhelm

32:33

all the time. Yeah, I am. For

32:36

better or worse, our relationship is

32:38

not like one I've ever had with

32:40

a documentary subject before. And

32:43

maybe that's because of how invested I've become

32:45

in a certain outcome for Judy. Not

32:48

only because I've come to care about her, but

32:51

because I've started to feel like the

32:53

success of my series is now tied

32:55

up with my ability to improve Judy's

32:57

life circumstances. Our relationship

32:59

is a roller coaster. Moments

33:01

of tenderness. All right, well. Okay.

33:04

I love you. I love you. I

33:07

see you. And moments of transaction. I need to pay

33:09

you from our session today. Yes,

33:11

that's in my budget. There

33:13

are supposedly urgent 3 a.m.

33:15

voicemails. Hello, Jess. Jess,

33:17

it's Judy. I

33:20

need to talk to you. I'd like to be

33:22

able to connect with you before the

33:24

morning, okay? And one day

33:26

in January, I get a different sort of

33:28

wake-up call. I decided

33:30

last minute to take a

33:33

break and go home for a couple of months.

33:35

I think my mental health really needed it. But

33:39

yeah, just to like give you a heads up,

33:41

I am back home. At

33:43

least till April or maybe March. I'm not too

33:46

sure. It's a voice note from Jess, who

33:48

I was last in touch with a month ago now. I'm

33:51

well aware that I have zero

33:53

right to bat an eye about Jess's new

33:55

plans to be out of state for the

33:57

remainder of the production schedule. But

34:00

the change does mean that they

34:02

are out of the series. And

34:04

I realize that if I don't get a move on, I

34:07

might lose Michael too. Hey,

34:16

how you doing? Good, how are you? Been

34:19

so long. I know, thanks. Thanks for coming

34:21

to meet me here. No problem, no problem

34:23

at all. After months

34:25

dragging my feet, I finally book

34:27

a second interview with Michael. All

34:29

right, so interview number two. This

34:33

time we talk for several hours. And

34:36

the conversation spans his friendships. They

34:39

used to call me hat master tonight, so I wear

34:41

a lot of different hats. Family. And

34:43

my grandmother used to go to a lot

34:45

of Black Power seminars. The time he spent

34:47

in prison. You have to rehabilitate yourself, because

34:50

they're not going to really rehabilitate you. More

34:52

about his public speaking class. When I

34:54

do my public speaking, I'm helping other

34:56

people. I'm changing their life, and I'm freeing

34:58

myself at the same time too. And about

35:00

the book he's writing. The name of the

35:02

book is called Conversation is the Motivation to

35:04

Change the Situation. Yeah, it's almost finished. They

35:06

got like three more chapters to go. It's

35:09

an intimate conversation. Michael

35:11

is so generous, sharing his history

35:13

and feelings. How did this interview

35:16

go for you? Oh, it was a pleasure. You're

35:18

a very good moderator. Yeah,

35:20

you're welcome. You're welcome, Jeff. It's like we knew

35:22

each other for years. I feel really lucky that

35:24

I get to talk to you. Thank you, thank

35:26

you. Leaving

35:30

the recording space, Michael has a bounce in

35:33

his step. It's been

35:35

two hours of mostly him talking.

35:38

I am absolutely exhausted. But

35:40

the impression I get is that he was just

35:42

getting started. You chose me out

35:45

of a lot of people, and that

35:47

is like special to me. And

35:50

I trust you, you trust me. You know, we

35:53

could be ourselves around each other. So it's

35:55

a win-win situation all around. Win-win.

35:59

That expression. I don't want

36:01

you to just think that it would have to be

36:03

just business because it would be personal too. We could

36:05

go out to the E, go to the movies, stuff

36:07

like that. I

36:10

could get to learn some things about you just like

36:12

things about me. I could get to know you and

36:14

you could talk to me about anything. Well,

36:16

if you have questions for me and anything you

36:18

want to talk to me about, you can ask me.

36:21

Okay, definitely. Thank you.

36:27

In the week following our interview, Michael

36:30

leaves me a voicemail. Hi, Josh.

36:32

This is Michael. I took

36:34

the day off today, so I'll be back when you

36:36

get a chance. We'll talk, all right? I miss you

36:39

too. Talk to you soon. Bye-bye. I

36:43

take this to mean that he wants to do

36:45

another interview soon. In response,

36:48

I shoot him a text to tell him

36:50

I'll let him know when I'm ready to

36:52

schedule our next meeting. Then

36:54

a few days later, I hear from Michael

36:56

again. A text message with

36:58

a photo of him looking dapper in

37:00

an all-white suit with a fur collar

37:02

and a fuzzy white fedora. It

37:05

is an amazing outfit, and I

37:07

remember how much pride he takes in his clothing,

37:10

so I heart it and carry

37:12

on with my day. But

37:14

then Michael starts sending more texts like,

37:17

I hope to see you soon. We

37:19

need to hang out one day and do something fun.

37:21

Let me know when you're free. Or

37:23

another, I miss you, Jess. And

37:26

then more snapshots, selfies, outfit pics,

37:28

and then texts suggesting that I send

37:31

him some photos of myself. And

37:34

now something feels really off. After

37:36

some deliberation, I text Michael back saying

37:38

that while I love his fashion sense,

37:41

sending photos of myself isn't something I'm comfortable

37:43

with. Michael responds

37:46

immediately. He says, I'm

37:48

sorry, I'm just a picture-friendly person, that's

37:50

all. Maybe you thought I was

37:52

flirting with you. And if I made you feel that

37:54

way, I'm sorry. I'm not that

37:57

type, but I thought we were friends, even

37:59

you. suggested that we go skating one

38:01

day, but now I guess your point of

38:03

view has changed. So now

38:06

we will just keep our relationship strictly

38:08

business. Also, by the

38:10

way, I wasn't paid for the second

38:12

interview we did together. I

38:15

rack my brain for the skating thing. At

38:17

first, I don't even remember what he's talking

38:19

about. And then I

38:22

listen back through the tape from our

38:24

first interview, and it all comes back.

38:31

Ever since I was a kid, all my female

38:33

cousins, they used to always take me roller skating.

38:37

During our first interview, Michael had shared

38:39

with me that he likes to roller skate

38:41

to decompress. Picturing him relaxing

38:43

on the rink was so charming

38:46

that while brainstorming next steps for our work

38:48

together, I suggest that he could show me

38:50

where he skates sometime. Maybe we

38:52

could go rollerblade. Okay, yeah, definitely. Rollerblade.

38:55

Yeah, we can do that. I'm really

38:57

bad at rollerblades. Oh, okay,

38:59

oh, okay. I'll help you with that. Okay, I'll

39:01

help you. Yeah. Even if I

39:03

gotta hold your hand, yeah, make sure you don't fall.

39:07

I was musing that it could make

39:09

some nice scene tape, theoretically. But

39:12

it didn't occur to me that

39:14

Michael might interpret it beyond the

39:16

bounds of our documentary-induced relationship. I

39:24

think back to the interviews and phone calls

39:26

I've had with Michael over the course of

39:28

this project. We gotta do that

39:30

roller skating, so we can get

39:32

in there. Instead

39:35

of studios, I try to interview people in

39:37

places where I know they're gonna feel at

39:39

ease. I say, let's meet

39:41

at your place. Let's grab a bite. Let's

39:44

go roller skating. Yeah, because I love cooking. I got

39:46

hot shoes. I got

39:48

hot towels. I got... Ooh, yeah.

39:50

You like that? Oh, okay. Maybe

39:53

I might cook some one day and bring you some. I

39:56

love that. It's not a

39:58

coincidence that someone feeling... at ease is

40:00

the surest way to get natural tape. Do

40:03

you have anything you want to talk about? But

40:05

it's not just about the setting. We can also just turn

40:07

off the recorder and just hang out for a bit. I

40:09

have to leave in probably 40 minutes. It's

40:13

part of my job to be friendly,

40:15

to be empathetic, to smile often, to

40:18

laugh easily. I want

40:20

my subjects to be totally themselves, which

40:22

is why audio producers often boast that

40:25

the small size of our equipment and

40:27

teams helps our subjects actually forget they're

40:29

being recorded at all. It's

40:33

not that I'm lying about my commitment to

40:35

my subjects. I actually do care

40:37

about all of them. I don't know

40:39

if there's anything I can do to support you. Just hit me

40:41

up. I pay for your teachers. I've got a lot of teaching. You

40:44

can just call me if you need something.

40:46

You're a tremendously special person. You

40:48

are. I just also have an

40:50

agenda. I kind of want to bum a smoke for me,

40:53

and then I'll give you one next time I see

40:55

you. What cigarettes? Yeah. Is that allowed?

40:58

I think about the strange intimacy of a

41:00

long personal interview. I want to know

41:02

your dreams and your fears. About

41:05

life or? Yeah. When

41:07

do people talk about the minutia

41:09

of their lives and feelings, except

41:11

with dear friends, lovers, therapists, and

41:14

documentarians? I love you.

41:16

I love you. I'll see you. I

41:27

reread Michael's last text and

41:29

call him back. Hello?

41:32

Hi, Michael. Hello. How you doing, Sharon? Yeah.

41:35

Michael has never called me by my last

41:37

name before. Something's up.

41:40

Actually, I'm feeling a bit bad because I just got

41:42

your text and I feel like I hurt

41:46

your feelings or confused you or gave you

41:48

mixed signals or something, and I just wanted to

41:50

clarify. Oh, yeah. Yeah,

41:52

I didn't want you to get along

41:54

with the impression. Not

41:57

at all. I mean, I just wanted

41:59

to know. I wanted to clarify that while we work on

42:01

this series, we're also collaborators in a

42:04

sense. So like when I suggested

42:06

we go skating, for example, it

42:08

was in the context of an interview. And

42:10

so I obviously wasn't clear and I'm really sorry.

42:14

I wasn't trying to hit on you or nothing like that. Yeah.

42:18

I mean, I just wanted to make sure that I

42:20

hadn't been sending you mixed signals. Yeah,

42:22

no, you haven't. No, you haven't. You're

42:25

definitely professional. Yeah, definitely.

42:27

Yeah, definitely. So

42:29

now we cleared our body. Don't you feel better

42:31

now? I do. Yeah, thanks for

42:34

taking Michael. But

42:37

I don't really feel better. Because

42:40

it strikes me that Michael is in a

42:42

moment of his life where opportunities for connection

42:45

have been hard to come by. I

42:47

don't have too many friends where I can hang

42:49

out with and do things

42:52

where they don't want nothing from

42:54

me. So yeah, they

42:56

always ask for money or ask them for

42:58

something. So I know it was

43:00

going to be like that with you. So

43:03

I just wanted somebody, you know, somebody

43:05

new and refreshing in my life. No,

43:08

I get it. Since getting out

43:10

of prison just over a year ago, Michael

43:12

has been on parole and hustling just

43:14

to make ends meet, meeting

43:16

me for interviews in between shifts at

43:19

a slew of isolating low paid gigs.

43:22

How was work today? Oh, it was good. It was good.

43:24

Yeah, I'm about to leave this job here. Oh, yeah. I'm

43:26

about to get a job in the hospital. Yeah,

43:28

I just did the yearn just yesterday. How

43:31

old was the new work schedule treaty? Oh, it's

43:33

OK. Yeah? Not bad. Yeah. Because you were doing

43:35

almost a night shift for the war. Yeah, night

43:37

shift. It was only $17 an hour. I

43:40

always had a fear for driving for a company

43:42

or anything. Even if you park it

43:44

wrong, the company is going to consider you a liability.

43:47

And it's not really worth it for $17 either. It's

43:50

been taking a toll on his relationships.

43:53

I was just having some, you know,

43:55

relationship issues with my fiance because all

43:57

the traumatic things we went through is

43:59

life. Yeah. Yeah, she bailed

44:01

me out of jail two times before she

44:03

spent her hard on money. But

44:05

when he tells his story, Michael gets

44:07

to bask in the connection of sharing

44:09

and being listened to, as

44:11

well as the sense of control that comes from

44:13

being the narrator of your own life. Yeah,

44:16

I never had that support that I

44:18

really needed. Yeah, that always been my

44:21

problem all my life. Yeah,

44:24

yeah, but it's all good though. Things

44:26

are starting to surface, all things are coming my way.

44:30

Yeah. Slowly but surely.

44:33

Cool. Brings

44:37

me to the other reason I'm left feeling

44:39

bad. I'm actually really

44:42

uncertain about whether Michael's story is

44:44

even a good fit for the

44:46

series, because I've now

44:48

realized that he, like Ernesto,

44:50

has also been on an

44:52

addiction recovery journey. I've been clean

44:54

for almost four years now. I don't

44:56

drink no more. I don't smoke or

44:58

nothing. So my life completely turned around

45:00

360 degrees. And

45:03

like Judy, he too

45:05

has been struggling with unstable housing.

45:07

I had to move three times in one year. Oh

45:11

my gosh. That cost me a lot of money. Just

45:13

like now I live in a homeless shelter, and

45:16

there's a lot of negative energy in there. Even

45:18

though their stories are different, in such a

45:20

short series, it won't work to repeat content

45:23

themes. You have to become a student before

45:25

you can be a teacher. You got to

45:27

be quick, quick to listen and slow to

45:29

speak. Then there's the problem

45:31

of how Michael talks about his life. He

45:34

does this thing that is every audio

45:36

producer's nightmare. You need to start treating

45:38

yourself instead of cheating yourself. I'm living out

45:40

all my dreams slowly but surely. I just

45:42

have what goes on must come down. Michael

45:45

tends to bury every reflection in

45:47

a torrent of inspirational cliches, which

45:50

makes sense for a man who has

45:52

spent a lot of time in institutionalized

45:55

personal development groups. No

45:57

matter the reason for the tendency, it makes sense to

45:59

me. it harder for me to coax

46:01

him to speak in specifics, which

46:04

is the way I need him to tell his story.

46:09

I don't think I can afford to spend

46:12

any more time on trying to make Michael's

46:14

story work for the series. And

46:19

I'm getting to the end of what I can do for Judy

46:21

too. Seems like

46:24

your priority is constantly more

46:26

time and my priority is like, what can we

46:28

do right away? I

46:31

don't want to come in. It's

46:37

now been a year since my

46:39

auditions and I'm still heavily involved

46:41

in Judy's situation. I've

46:43

talked to lawyers, social service

46:46

agencies, housing facilities, landlords, and

46:48

caseworkers trying to figure out

46:50

how to get Judy permanently

46:52

housed. But we're pretty

46:54

much having the same argument we

46:56

were having last November. By

47:00

now, I've clued into a fact that I

47:02

should have probably figured out a long time

47:04

ago. Judy's ongoing housing

47:06

crisis is so much more than

47:09

anything one person could take on.

47:12

Worse, I'm starting to think that

47:14

my deal with her might actually

47:17

be more harmful than the regular

47:19

documentarians promise that telling a subject

47:21

story has the potential to make

47:24

a difference. The

47:26

fact is that I can't help

47:28

Judy because I can't

47:30

produce her life the way I would

47:32

produce a documentary about her life. And

47:35

even though I've said to Michael that

47:38

our relationship is purely professional, I'd

47:40

be lying if I said I hadn't been

47:42

sloppy with boundaries. Not least

47:44

because when I started this project, I

47:47

actually wanted to make space for real

47:49

collaboration and even friendship. But

47:52

the big picture is that I wouldn't

47:54

have a relationship with Michael or Judy

47:56

if I didn't also need something from

47:59

them. So now what?

48:08

It's June and my funding is almost

48:10

gone. The series is scheduled

48:13

to launch in early September. I've

48:15

got drafts of the first three episodes. But

48:18

I'm nervous, because my new

48:21

rules for doing documentary seem to

48:23

have backfired at every turn. And

48:26

when the series airs, it's not

48:28

going to present the stories my subjects said

48:30

they wanted to make at their auditions. I'm

48:34

not even sure the series will present a story

48:36

my subjects are comfortable with at all. There's

48:40

only one thing I can do. I

48:42

have a window before I have to

48:44

lock these episodes down. It's

48:46

just enough time to get them

48:49

involved. To invite them to make

48:51

suggestions and requests. To criticize or

48:53

change how I've shaped this narrative.

48:56

Maybe they'll have ideas of what I have to

48:58

do to change this series. To make sure I'm

49:00

doing right by them by the time it comes

49:02

out. Next

49:06

week, I'm opening up the editing suite. I'm

49:09

playing the drafts I have for Judy,

49:11

Michael and Ernesto. I

49:52

just want you to know that this is the organization I support on T reading on T Load. shocking,

50:00

heartbreaking, transformative. A

50:02

series about what happens to all of us, subjects,

50:05

documentarians, and audiences when

50:07

stories about our lives

50:09

become products. I'm

50:15

Jess Shane. I wrote and produced this

50:17

episode. My editor is Sarah Nix.

50:20

The executive producer of Radiotopia

50:22

is Audrey Martovich. Radiotopia

50:24

presents managing producer as Yuri

50:27

Lazordo. Contributing editors on

50:29

this episode were Chiyoki Iyansin,

50:31

Michelle Macklem, and Eleanor MacBowell.

50:34

Our sound designer and mix engineer

50:36

is Michelle Macklem. And our music

50:38

was composed by Eliza Niemi. Additional

50:41

music by Michelle Macklem. And

50:44

additional production support from Dante Hussein

50:46

and Mona Hassan. Our episode

50:48

art is by Justin Broadbent. And

50:51

a big thank you to

50:53

my friends and sounding boards,

50:55

Ali Graham, Ivana Dizdar, Kaitlyn

50:57

Press, Christine White, Carla Green,

50:59

Kate Sutherland, and Christina Hardinge.

51:02

Our conversations were so essential in

51:04

shaping the many iterations of this

51:06

episode. I also want to

51:08

shout out my friend Alex, who put

51:10

in so many hours on behalf of

51:12

Judy, her attorney, and me during the

51:14

making of this episode. This

51:17

reporting was also supported by the

51:19

International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G.

51:21

Buffett Fund for Women Journalists. Next

51:25

week is our last episode. I

51:27

hope you listen. I'm

51:30

so sorry that I'm late sometime. Just

51:33

I dreamed that I had no idea

51:35

that it wasn't just a high, but

51:37

I'll take it. Radio

51:54

to me. From

51:58

ERX. you