0:00

Today I sit down with three-time Juno

0:03

Award-nominated recording artist , em

0:05

Griner .

0:06

Even when I was singing with David Bowie , I

0:08

was still navigating my voice . But

0:11

that is what you have to do . You

0:13

can take the lessons , but you got to get

0:15

out there and do it too . I

0:18

just happen to be doing it with a

0:20

major rock legend

0:22

.

0:23

She's recorded over 20 albums and

0:25

toured the world as a solo artist and

0:27

with David Bowie . M Greiner's

0:30

story is truly inspiring . In

0:32

this episode , discover how to access confidence

0:35

through your voice , speak your needs and

0:37

express your true self . Let's

0:39

dive in . I am thrilled

0:42

to be speaking with M Greiner , a

0:44

three-time Juno Award nominated

0:46

recording artist . I've been deep in

0:48

your book for the better part of a week . Your book is

0:50

the Healing Power of Singing . Raise

0:53

your Voice , change your Life . What

0:55

Touring with David Bowie , single Parenting

0:57

and Ditching the Music Business Taught Me in

0:59

25 Easy Steps and

1:01

lots of tips in there that we will be talking

1:04

about . If you go back to some of the earlier

1:06

lessons learned as an artist

1:08

, what were some of those pivotal moments

1:11

for you that really shaped your trajectory

1:13

?

1:14

First of all , thanks for having me . I'm really

1:16

happy to be here . I think

1:18

that the opportunity

1:20

to be creative as

1:23

a young person probably shaped

1:25

a lot , and my parents , they

1:27

ran their own newspaper out of our basement , so

1:30

it was this great glimpse of entrepreneurs

1:32

working , being creative

1:34

, making money . So

1:37

, yeah , those things really shaped

1:39

the decisions I made towards

1:41

. You know , like starting a demo on my

1:43

own and like put a band together on

1:45

my own . I never felt worried

1:48

about doing those things because I felt like it would

1:50

always work out .

1:52

So they were obviously demonstrating and role

1:54

modeling , but were they equally encouraging

1:56

you to take those risks and think outside

1:58

the box ?

1:59

They weren't encouraging in

2:01

the way that maybe

2:04

, like a teacher , would be encouraging , yeah

2:06

, but there was an

2:09

environment created where we could be creative

2:12

. Yeah , we lived in the country . There

2:14

was literally nothing to do and

2:16

, I think , out of necessity , um

2:19

, just writing songs

2:21

, playing instruments . It

2:23

became something

2:26

that they you know , they

2:28

they did encourage . I do remember

2:30

there being a point , though , when it

2:33

started to get close to the

2:35

end of high school , where I think there

2:37

was a little bit of trepidation over . You

2:40

know , her music is now

2:42

going to be what she puts her

2:44

whole life into right . Yeah , and I think

2:47

, with parents , they need to see a magazine

2:49

cover , an award nomination

2:52

mine anyway they needed to

2:54

see that the

2:56

world would embrace what I was doing before they

2:58

could completely get on board .

3:00

I know that a lot of artists like they can feel

3:03

that they are an artist inside of them . Did

3:05

you identify as a vocal artist

3:07

like that early as well , like you just knew sing

3:10

the songs I was writing

3:12

.

3:12

So singing has been like this thing

3:15

that I'm like , oh man , I know

3:17

I can't

3:26

sing like Tina Turner

3:28

or whoever , so what do I do to

3:30

get a little bit closer to that

3:33

? So I took vocal lessons , Even

3:35

when I was singing with David Bowie . I wasn't

3:37

really at the top of my game Like

3:39

I . I remember having

3:41

kind of a lot of just

3:44

, I was still navigating my voice , but

3:47

that is what you have to do . It's

3:49

like you can take the lessons

3:51

, but you got to get out there and do it

3:53

too . So I just

3:56

happened to be doing it with a

3:58

major rock legend

4:00

.

4:00

Yeah , when you got

4:02

that gig , was

4:05

there a difference in that moment with how you saw

4:07

yourself ? Or was it just like the world telling

4:09

you that , hey , you made it . And you , you've

4:12

always kind of felt like you were confident , naturally

4:14

.

4:15

I think that Bowie experience was twofold

4:17

. So I mean , I grew up listening to Duran

4:20

Duran . Um , all those

4:22

British bands that listened to Bowie

4:24

right . So to actually

4:26

sing with him . It definitely satisfied

4:29

this creative part of me . But

4:31

when you're in your 20s , ego

4:33

is super running the show . So

4:36

I remember kind of coming out of that

4:38

experience feeling like , okay

4:41

, by then I had been dropped from a major

4:43

label . No Canadian record

4:45

label would like look at me and I

4:47

was sort of like you know , okay , well , I didn't

4:49

get this , but I got this and

4:52

it's pretty awesome and everyone wants to talk

4:54

to me about it . I also think

4:56

that it gave me permission to

4:58

be braver . So

5:01

the ego is not like totally it's not

5:03

a horrible thing , it's like braver . So the ego is

5:05

not like totally it's not a horrible thing

5:07

, it's like it can be a vehicle , right

5:15

, yeah . It definitely gave me some energy to say like , hey

5:17

, I am a singer , right , even if I wasn't quite there yet getting

5:19

the permission to to step

5:22

into that role . So for me

5:24

it was Bowie , but for anyone

5:26

else it could be a new

5:28

job or a new way of looking at

5:30

something or you know , just

5:32

kind of an awakening .

5:34

When you're not an artist , you might be chasing the

5:36

job , the title , the role

5:38

. There's been a ton of layoffs that

5:40

have that have happened , so it's like who

5:42

are you without the blank , and so

5:45

I just feel like that's the work . When

5:47

you were that young , collaborating with artists like

5:50

that , did you find

5:52

that it was easy and

5:54

natural for you to authentically be creative

5:56

, or were you trying to appease and adjust

5:59

a little bit along the way ?

6:01

I was completely appeasing and

6:03

adjusting . There were certainly

6:05

times where I would create something or write

6:07

something that felt really great

6:09

, really energizing . But

6:12

I am a sponge

6:14

, so the people around me , the environment

6:17

, they really influence what

6:19

I do and I'm sure this resonates with a lot of people listening

6:22

. Yeah , you know the problem with that

6:24

. Sometimes , when you're younger and in

6:26

my situation , if you're not quite cemented

6:29

in what you stand for , what your values are and

6:31

I know we're going to talk about values , yes , we are

6:33

you can be really easily

6:35

swayed , and it's not your fault

6:37

, it's just you know you haven't

6:39

had the life experience , you haven't

6:42

figured out where you stand . You

6:45

experience you haven't figured out where you stand . You're sort of

6:47

chasing a dangling carrot and someone's going to help you get there , and

6:49

I think a lot of young artists find themselves in that situation

6:51

, right . So , yeah

6:53

, those things get in the way of finding

6:56

out who you are and yeah

6:58

, so I do think the more mentors

7:00

we can have , yeah , as women , the

7:02

better , like , if you go back

7:05

and you think , hey , this was the moment

7:07

, creatively , with my voice , I really

7:09

stepped into it and what

7:11

was the switch ?

7:12

Like what was Last year .

7:15

Still finding it yeah .

7:17

I'm just curious , because what's the

7:19

lesson in like flipping that switch so people

7:22

can get there faster ?

7:23

I would just have loved to have gotten there faster , for myself

7:25

, for myself , I'm with you , we

7:27

don't need to spend that time . So I

7:31

think what it is is maybe getting

7:34

to know yourself a little bit sooner

7:36

. And so what does that

7:38

look like ? I do

7:41

think that the

7:43

clearer you can be on what's informing

7:46

your actions right

7:49

so what's driving the bus . So

7:51

in my situation , I've

7:55

always had the need to be heard right

7:57

so at any cost almost

7:59

, and that stems back from really not

8:01

knowing myself very well in a lot of like childhood

8:03

stuff . So , like , could

8:11

someone uncover that a little bit sooner , maybe ?

8:12

maybe it's just about being around people who can illuminate that path for

8:15

you and they're not imposing their own kind

8:17

of agenda on you , which happens

8:19

so much to young artists , young

8:21

entrepreneurs , you know much

8:27

to young artists , young entrepreneurs , you know , and when you were at that early stage in creating

8:29

songs for yourself and collaborating with other established

8:31

artists , did they demonstrate anything

8:34

that you have then carried forward in

8:36

how you would work with a young artist today

8:38

?

8:38

Absolutely . You don't sing with David

8:40

Bowie and not learn anything . Yeah , there

8:43

was an air of professionalism

8:45

with him and I think when

8:47

someone has achieved so much , they're

8:49

not trying to prove themselves anymore , right

8:51

? So a lot of people are really caught

8:53

up in the optics of success

8:56

. So , you know , I got to make it look

8:58

like I'm doing really well . He

9:01

had done very well

9:03

, right ? So there was no like

9:05

part of him that was trying to impress

9:07

anyone anymore and

9:09

because of that there

9:11

was just the veil pulled back

9:14

on his process

9:16

, so very driven by

9:18

curiosity . He was very

9:20

professional , like I said

9:22

. So if there was something wrong in a situation

9:24

I think this can apply to anyone who's

9:27

running a company you know , just stop

9:29

, Okay , something's not working . Well , just

9:32

stop , take a minute , ask

9:34

the questions that need to be asked , Take

9:37

care of the people who are involved , right

9:40

, and just sort of see the lay of the land

9:42

so I really learned that from him

9:44

. And

9:46

just sort of see the

9:49

lay of the land . So I really learned that from him . And also

9:51

that fame is just kind of a shit show . It was interesting to see him

9:53

walk around New York and just sort of be done with

9:55

people approaching him and

9:57

to see that the fire in him was really about

9:59

creating and curiosity and like the

10:01

next album and the

10:04

work . So I'm

10:06

trying to just share what I know with

10:08

people who are open to it . So

10:10

sometimes that's a young artist who

10:13

you know lacks the confidence

10:16

to use their voice . Sometimes

10:19

it's someone in

10:23

a corporate setting who wants to bring

10:25

their voice forward , learn to be a better

10:27

speaker , sort of work with executive

10:30

presence . But what I noticed

10:33

is that people take their voice for granted

10:35

. Oh really yeah . It's not

10:37

like an instrument like a guitar or drum

10:40

kit or whatever where you can see it , take pictures

10:42

of it , like , shine it up

10:44

. For that reason , then it's

10:46

on us , and then we have so many insecurities

10:49

about it we don't really understand

10:51

how it works . We kind of

10:53

think if our voice is one way , then

10:55

it's that way forever

10:57

. Yeah . And we

11:00

also don't

11:02

realize that it changes as we change

11:04

. So just like you're not in the same mood every day , your voice

11:07

isn't going to be the same every day . So

11:09

I think bringing some acceptance

11:11

to the voice is really important

11:14

, and also just knowing that

11:16

you can learn a few tips that could change the

11:18

game for you .

11:20

When you see people unlock that like , what's

11:22

the outcome ?

11:23

It's really awesome because I do see so many people

11:25

unlock it . It really comes down

11:27

to learning how

11:30

to breathe . We

11:33

did this as babies . We used

11:36

our voice properly when we were babies . Anyone

11:38

who's been on a plane has heard

11:41

a baby cry , and it's

11:43

not always a feeling , but

11:45

there's a clue in that that

11:47

the body's working

11:49

the way that it technically was meant

11:51

to work . A baby would be unconsciously

11:55

using their diaphragm to make the loudest

11:57

sound , so over time

11:59

, we've stopped using it

12:01

, because we need to be quiet in

12:03

school and we need to be cooperative

12:07

and this is really important for women , because

12:09

we are constantly judged

12:12

for being loud , for using

12:14

our voice In order to embrace

12:17

it . You just have to learn the physiology

12:19

of how it works . So that's you know . You can go

12:21

on YouTube and look up diaphragmatic

12:23

breathing and just start

12:25

doing it .

12:26

Yeah , I'm just imagining being able

12:28

to take a moment maybe

12:30

you're in a meeting , maybe you're . You're

12:32

noticing that you're adjusting

12:34

your style , You're not speaking fully , You're

12:37

not expressing your ideas Just

12:39

being able to stop , breathe deeply

12:42

let go of those voices and

12:44

then kind of come forward as though you

12:46

know we're in the vocal booth in the meeting

12:48

room .

12:49

It takes practice though .

12:50

Yeah , it really does , yeah

12:52

, and not fearing the

12:54

response that's coming on the other side , yes

12:56

, which I'm imagining as an artist is like

12:58

how people would critique the song , or like you

13:00

know what I mean Just that feedback and being so

13:02

protective of your heart .

13:04

That's a really good point , and I think

13:06

that the voice

13:08

is a mirror to who we are

13:10

.

13:10

Yeah .

13:11

So if we are feeling

13:13

a little sheepish with our

13:15

voice , there's probably something else inside

13:18

, right , that's where we're a little bit fearful

13:20

to bring forward . So through practice

13:23

, through repeated lessons , through just

13:25

having the environment to use your voice in front

13:27

of another person which is really scary you

13:29

simply get better and

13:32

then that feeds your confidence

13:34

, and then your confidence feeds your voice

13:36

. It's like a loop . Yeah Right .

13:38

And when you're teaching people the executive presence

13:40

like is that the practice that they go through

13:43

when they're just trying to be influential

13:45

in the room ? Like what would be the things people are working on

13:47

in that , in that moment to have more executive presence

13:49

, it all comes back to breath and

13:52

the voice , though , because we don't consider them

13:54

as important pieces of our day to day .

14:08

Then we're kind of going around unconsciously

14:10

doing things and then wondering oh why did I lose

14:12

my voice in that talk ?

14:14

Yeah , and I've been thinking about like the confidence

14:16

underpin and in your book

14:19

, something that kind of jumped out was

14:21

, you know , your section on finding your

14:23

values and knowing your needs . I

14:25

feel like it's really hard to find our confidence until

14:28

you solve that part Absolutely

14:30

. Yeah , when was it that you really

14:32

started to kind of lock in to your

14:35

values as an artist and knowing

14:37

your needs ? Jen ?

14:39

that's a good question because it's evolving

14:41

, I know , and it's not .

14:42

It's not like one time and it's

14:44

done .

14:45

Yeah , and I don't think it's useful for me

14:47

to say , like you know , in this , in

14:50

2020 , I realized what

14:52

my values were and now I'm good . I

14:54

think that it's about coming

14:57

out of the unconscious , about

15:00

again what's driving the bus

15:02

right , so we

15:04

can say all of this stuff like , oh , we

15:07

, you know kindness is important

15:09

and and empathy and creativity

15:11

and honesty , but like if we

15:13

can challenge ourselves to look at

15:15

where we're in a deficit with

15:17

those things and not beat

15:19

ourselves up because , again , we have so

15:22

much pressure on ourselves as women to

15:24

be awesome all the time

15:26

, but like maybe what

15:28

could serve you ? You know , like I've

15:31

asked people various times to make a list

15:33

of their five most important

15:35

values , and you know

15:37

they'll make the list and then I'll ask them a few more questions

15:39

and then later I'll ask them okay , rank

15:42

those values for a second . Like , just where

15:44

do you think you are with all of those ? And having

15:48

a way to measure where we are is sometimes

15:50

helpful because you can look at it on

15:52

paper and say , oh yeah

15:55

, like this is really important to me , but I'm actually not

15:57

spending any time on it then

15:59

you can make some

16:01

informed decisions about what you're going to do

16:04

to help yourself . Really not

16:06

like help everyone else , help yourself . Move

16:09

the needle on that value .

16:11

Had there been values that have surfaced in the last two years

16:13

that that surprised

16:15

you , or would you say they're kind of still core

16:18

and foundational still

16:26

core and foundational every day is a new opportunity to realize what the heck

16:28

is going on or not going on right .

16:29

So for me , I guess the biggest one that has come

16:31

to me in the last two years is just

16:34

learning to trust and also

16:36

to realize

16:39

that being heard is really important to me . I've

16:41

mentioned that a few times , but it's kind

16:43

of remarkable that , like I , would go 25

16:45

years as a singer and realize , okay

16:48

, that's not totally about music

16:51

or even like

16:53

creativity

16:55

, it's really about being heard right

16:57

.

16:58

Being heard means what for you ?

17:01

I think it would be that

17:03

, um

17:06

, I

17:08

feel like there has

17:10

been some space to

17:13

express myself , right

17:15

? So I I think we have to

17:17

take the onus off the other person to receive

17:19

you in the way that you want to be received

17:22

. Yeah , because then you

17:24

know , we're setting ourselves up for

17:26

some kind of expectation and maybe disappointment

17:29

, but like just having

17:31

the space to express . So

17:34

what does that

17:36

look like for anyone who's

17:38

listening ? Is that finding

17:40

a supportive friend

17:42

? Is that working with your

17:45

partner so that they can hear you

17:47

without talking over you

17:49

? Or is it journaling ? And

17:51

I think even what you're doing , Jen , like with

17:53

this podcast , you've created

17:55

an environment that is

17:58

empowering for people .

17:59

Well , and as you were talking , talking , I was asking myself that question

18:02

being heard for me means

18:04

I'm giving myself time to

18:06

hear myself .

18:08

Yeah , because I was running

18:11

hard for nine

18:13

years in a startup hard , like

18:15

we're talking back-to-back meetings no

18:17

, no space and

18:19

the dynamic of somewhat

18:22

of trying to prove myself and

18:24

that racket

18:26

doesn't lend any time

18:29

to really allowing myself to be heard

18:31

that's so important , what you just brought

18:33

up , and I think if

18:36

I wish that I could inspire people

18:38

to do anything , it's that I

18:40

wish they , you know , I could inspire people to clear

18:42

the space so they could have what you're

18:44

talking about . For me , yeah , you

18:57

can't clear any space if you can't sleep or

19:00

if you're having a dysfunctional

19:02

relationship with your kids or whatever

19:04

, so you kind of have to trace

19:07

those breadcrumbs back to like what is actually

19:09

getting in the way .

19:11

Yeah , and we all do it like we all have

19:13

our vices right . My philosophy

19:15

is , if I can introduce one new practice

19:18

a month and get good at that one new practice a

19:20

month and get good at that . So last

19:23

month it was cold plunging and I

19:25

was like I'm

19:30

going to do it for 30 days because I have a great guest

19:32

and she inspired me so much about the health benefits , and then now I'm layering

19:34

in the meditation . But this is the goal

19:36

of just trying to

19:38

clear some of that way

19:42

that I was just distracting myself , to be

19:44

quite honest , and you can't hear anything .

19:46

Yeah , absolutely , and I think

19:48

I've set myself up for sure of thinking

19:51

people have to be perfect

19:53

. I have to be awesome

19:55

or at least look like it's going

19:57

awesomely . But you can

19:59

do those things like you're talking about , like

20:01

experiment , and have fun and try

20:04

out things with with

20:06

it almost being like a vision for

20:08

exploration . Yeah , let's

20:11

just talk about your book . How easy or difficult

20:13

was it for you to write this book ? It

20:16

was exciting and I think I was propelled by the

20:18

idea of having a book , but

20:20

it was very difficult to get

20:22

it right Again , that perfectionism

20:25

so I stopped and started it three

20:28

times . But having

20:31

Michael who is my he's

20:34

, I got a husband out of my book deal

20:36

. I just want to say that that's amazing

20:38

Michael Holmes , who's my

20:40

partner , and

20:42

he is an editor at ECW

20:45

, the company that published my book . For

20:47

myself and for so many other people , having

20:50

a guide who is

20:52

incredibly inspiring

20:54

and really tuned into , like

20:58

helping you tell your actual story

21:00

, is so important . Then

21:03

you have a almost like a partner in

21:05

the whole process

21:07

, as someone waiting to read

21:09

your next chapter . So

21:11

again like collaboration , right

21:14

, not just doing it all on your own , which

21:16

is so hard . I think is

21:18

really important .

21:20

For you telling your story , like , like

21:22

, were there just common pitfalls in that ? Was it like

21:24

, oh , is this that great ? Like , what

21:26

? What's the robber of the freedom

21:28

of telling the story ? Yeah

21:31

, we all do that , don't we ? Yes

21:33

, we do . I see this with almost every

21:35

guest who comes on .

21:37

Maybe it's a lack of celebration , because that's

21:39

something I see in my coaching . Is that a

21:41

lot of forward motion ? People can take

21:43

some steps and

21:45

make big realizations , but there's not a

21:47

lot of acknowledgement about

21:50

the things that we

21:52

do , because it feels

21:54

maybe selfish . What

21:56

is ?

21:57

it for you . I think there's a

21:59

disqualifying and

22:01

a diminishing natural pattern that I

22:03

still have to work through , and

22:06

I believe that the root

22:08

cause is that it wasn't

22:10

safe for me to shine

22:13

bright and freely , without jealousy

22:16

or repercussions around me . So

22:19

I'll almost get to the self-criticism

22:22

as a way to cope . It's not

22:24

as strong as it used to be , but it's still

22:26

always there . And then I

22:28

think , maybe if I'm too

22:30

celebratory of where things are at , and

22:32

then what if it goes away ? Maybe

22:35

? that will be my next month . Put

22:37

celebration into the mix . Yeah , totally . Put celebration

22:39

into the mix ? Yeah , totally , as you

22:42

are kind of in

22:44

a new season for yourself here . Like

22:46

what's going to be on the horizon for you More

22:48

music coaching , Like what's the vision forward

22:50

for you ?

22:51

I'm really okay with being in transition

22:53

right now . Yeah , I'm going back to school

22:55

. I'm going to study psychological science

22:57

. I

23:00

have a new band with my partner that we're working

23:03

on . We've got maybe two or three songs

23:05

done and then

23:07

just finding a path to help other people

23:10

through some of the things that we've

23:12

been talking about Really working

23:14

on presence and voice and

23:17

trying to share those ideas a little more widely

23:19

. So I'm in the process of developing

23:21

a course .

23:23

And what can people expect from the course ?

23:25

Well , I noticed that when I'm teaching

23:27

people , when we're doing

23:29

vocal training , everyone

23:31

is different , so everyone's got their own

23:33

unique challenges , their own story

23:36

, their own insecurities

23:39

, but the

23:41

process is very similar to

23:43

move people forward

23:46

. So what

23:48

I'm trying to do is create a foundational

23:51

course that will teach

23:53

people about exactly what I was talking

23:55

about breath . Also

23:57

, there's a whole part of using the voice where

23:59

we can direct the voice so

24:05

the sound can move in a certain line , and that's something that is universal , that people

24:08

inevitably have to learn to do

24:10

, and then relaxation , and

24:12

they all work together

24:14

to create a strong voice .

24:16

So I'd love to be able to just package

24:18

that out and have more people learn

24:21

it Well , it's incredibly

24:23

important , Like I have literally been integrating

24:26

all of your wisdom

24:28

and knowledge for now at least a week

24:30

. And I'm going to keep on going because

24:33

it's just that conscious awareness

24:35

and how quickly we can shift more into

24:37

that powerful place

24:40

of being rooted and speaking from that place

24:42

. And well , listen , I

24:44

am taking this forward . I am challenging

24:46

everyone listening to , for all of us , because

24:49

I'm not a singer , I've never been musically

24:52

inclined , but I can take these principles forward

24:54

. I can apply them into my

24:56

work too . So thank

24:58

you for being here . Thank you for everything

25:00

you've just offered us and shared with us . It's

25:03

been so wonderful .

25:04

Thank you for what you do and I'm really really

25:06

honored that you asked .

25:08

Thank you for joining us . Don't forget to follow

25:10

us on Instagram and LinkedIn , where

25:12

we transform the wisdom from our podcast

25:14

into practical tips , tools and takeaways

25:17

for your leadership journey . Find

25:19

us at gritgracepodcast

25:21

. See you next week .