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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Intentions, the podcast where

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we explore the world around us define meaning and intention in

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what we do. I'm Kelly Harvard and I'm on a mission to spread

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positive stories that will inspire you to live a more meaningful and connected life. Caroline Leon is an Australian

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born health and fitness advocate, fitness professional,

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and the co-founder of a life of education. When Caroline broke

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her back four years ago, falling from an indoor climbing

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wall , she never thought she'd be able to walk again. Her

0:31

life-threatening injuries included two shattered feet, a

0:33

displaced and fragmented right pelvis that was disconnected

0:36

from the left side of her body and a bust fracture to part of

0:39

her spine. Her injuries were so severe that she wanted to give

0:42

up, but after being confined to a wheelchair for six months, as

0:46

well as undergoing 14 surgeries and 23 blood transfusions, she

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slowly regained her ability to walk and came up with a plan to

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get not only her strength back, but also her confidence to mark

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the end of her recovery. Caroline decided to set a new

0:58

Guinness World Record to become the first person in the world

1:01

to summit all of the highest points in the Middle East in

1:03

the fastest possible time. A feat that had never been

1:06

attempted by a woman alone. What a woman. I've wanted to

1:09

talk to Caroline for the longest time. Her energy and

1:11

attitude to life is so inspiring and I'm totally

1:14

fascinated by her mindset. What gets her out of bed in the

1:17

morning and how did she face down huge and tragic life

1:20

events under emerge . Not only intact, but absolutely

1:22

thriving. Aside from her incredible story of triumph

1:25

over tragedy, Caroline and I discussed how to navigate life

1:28

when it keeps throwing you curve ball , finding our

1:31

purpose and meaning. Spoiler alert, you don't have to climb

1:34

a mountain to do this, thankfully. And how we have

1:36

everything inside of us that we need to succeed. We just need

1:39

to believe it. It was a really wonderful conversation and I

1:42

hope you enjoy it. Speaker 2: Morning

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Speaker 1: Caroline, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. Speaker 2: Yeah , and thank you so much for having me. It's a

1:48

pleasure. And Speaker 1: You've just literally come back from

1:51

climbing, I believe, yet another mountain. Where were

1:54

you and and how was it? How was the experience?

1:57

Speaker 2: So I went to Iran to a mountain called Mount Dampen

2:00

Land , and it's the highest mountain in the Middle East and

2:03

the highest volcano in Asia. So it's pretty special. It's

2:08

actually really lovely mountain. So, and honestly the

2:10

climb is great. I've climbed it a few times, it's not too

2:13

difficult, but this time what was really lovely about it is

2:16

that there was actually snow most of the way , and I've

2:19

never climbed it in those conditions. And so it was

2:22

really nice to be able to see the same mountain in such a

2:26

different perspective. So that was lovely. Yeah ,

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Speaker 1: I saw some amazing videos of you sliding down the

2:31

mountain. The climbing up does not look so fantastic to me. It

2:34

looks terribly challenging, which I'm sure it's, but the

2:36

coming down looks like a lot of fun. Well, to be honest

2:38

Speaker 2: With you never get to do that. You never get to

2:41

slide down on your barb because you need kind of like the

2:44

perfect conditions to be able to do that. You need the snow

2:47

to be soft and it needs to be like powder snow and not ice.

2:51

And you need enough snow and no CREs or CACs or anything like

2:55

that. So you need to really know the terrain. And so it was

2:58

, so it's actually the first time I got to really gade down

3:02

a mountain for a long time, but it took us like seven hours to

3:06

go up and 30 minutes to come down. Wow.

3:10

Speaker 1: Yeah, quite a contrast. I'm sure that 30 minutes was a lot , lot easier and slightly more pleasant. And

3:15

how was the experience in Iran as well? What was that like?

3:18

Speaker 2: Iran is actually one of my favorite countries. It's

3:21

such a beautiful place and to be honest with you, I love

3:25

really love being there because it's almost like going to one

3:29

of the very few countries in the world where you go and it's

3:33

completely untouched by Western influence . And because of that

3:38

it means that you really get to see it in its real kind of raw

3:42

rawness and you get to see what it's really like, like real

3:45

architecture and shops and, and how kind of the country

3:48

operates. And that's, yeah, it's really lovely. Like I love

3:52

not seeing any Coca-Cola or any like, you know, normal cars or

3:57

Starbucks or the architecture that now just like sweeps over

4:00

the world and is the same, you know, tall buildings in Iran,

4:04

you really get to see the traditional Iranian, the

4:07

Persian mosaics in the buildings and you get to see

4:10

like local businesses that operate out of like these

4:13

little garage kind of things. And they're tiny individual

4:17

businesses and one person sells plastic and the next person

4:20

tires and the next person. And so it's nice to be able to, to

4:25

see that again. I , I love it personally. Yeah ,

4:28

Speaker 1: That sounds fantastic. And did , did you get any sense of the feeling of the change that's been

4:31

happening there recently? Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually, so what's very interesting is

4:35

that I've been there three times in the last three years.

4:40

So I've gone every single year and I've been able to see how

4:44

different and how much the country's changing over the

4:47

course of these this time period. And what I've noticed

4:50

the most is actually that when I first went there, everybody

4:54

was covered , including myself. Like I like to be

4:57

ultra-conservative there and I go in a hijab and full head

5:01

scarf and fully covered . And this time when I was there I

5:05

walked into a restaurant and every woman had their scarf and

5:09

I was really like very, very shocked to see that, to see,

5:14

and this is in Teran , to see how much the city's changing

5:17

itself. So although the western media's reporting different

5:22

things inside the country, it's different. Yeah . Wow . So

5:26

Speaker 1: Interesting to hear from someone who's actually been there. Cause um, yeah, as we know, especially living in

5:30

this region, the western portrayal of the region can be

5:33

very, very different to us having a natural lived

5:35

experience here . So it's really interesting to hear about the fact that you've actually been there and

5:39

experienced it. So you've just recently climbed one huge

5:42

mountain, but back in 2015 you actually had a really bad

5:46

accident. You fell and you broke and you broke your entire

5:49

body into pieces. Um , and yet you're sat in front of me now

5:52

looking so healthy and so strongly, you just achieved

5:54

something so incredible. I mean, what, what happened to

5:56

you back Speaker 2: Then and , and just to talk us through it. Yeah, so

5:59

it's kinda interesting cause at the time that this happened ,

6:03

it almost felt like this is the end of my life. And now that I

6:08

reflect back on it , it actually was probably the

6:11

beginning of my life , the beginning of a very authentic

6:13

version of me . And , uh, it's quite interesting to see how

6:18

things can change and progress. But to kind of give you an idea

6:22

of what happened, I was , um, rock climbing with a friend of

6:25

mine and on an outdoor wall . And uh , I had been , you know

6:30

, rock climbing a lot when I was younger. I used to crazy

6:35

cliffs in when I was a little girl. Used to climb them up in

6:38

the swimsuit, look at the surf, and then climb all the way down

6:41

and just, you know, when you were young you were really

6:44

fearless and reckless and you just have no concept of, you

6:49

know, safety and danger. Um, so I used to do that. So when,

6:53

when I got to this wall with my friend , I was like, we were

6:57

joking around and uh , I was like, yeah, I I can do that .

7:00

Easy peasy , you know , a little bit cocky. And I started

7:04

to climb and when I got to the very top , I remember like

7:07

putting my arms on in the very top ledge of it and looking out

7:12

into the distance. And I remember now feeling something,

7:17

something in the air and I couldn't quite figure out what

7:21

it was . And obviously, you know , you have that intuition

7:23

, but like most people , we ignore it . And I remember at

7:27

the time thinking that I was really high up and I was

7:31

looking at the interior of the wall and like, maybe I can

7:34

climb down the interior of the wall. And I was like, no, no,

7:36

no , that's absolutely ridiculous. Cause I started to

7:39

play it out in my mind it's like crawling on this beam and

7:43

then dissenting the staircase in the center, like it was

7:46

crazy. So I went down the same way I came and the the peg that

7:51

I was holding onto came off and I just remember the yellow in

7:55

my hand. And then I just fell and I fell in like two seconds

7:59

Before I knew it , I was smack on the floor, I landed on my

8:03

seat , both my feet shattered my right foot because I landed

8:07

on my right foot a little bit more. I basically had what we

8:11

call a vertical sheer fracture, which is that my pelvis went

8:15

like this . And so off the other side of my body and my

8:22

pelvis shattered , my pubic disconnected and uh, part of my

8:28

spine just went, it was a burst fracture. And uh, yeah, my

8:33

right sort of came out of my body and then I found myself

8:36

laying on the floor covered in blood and just, you know, time

8:41

really slows down. And uh , I just remember like, I think it

8:46

was maybe 45 minutes whilst I waited for the ambulance and it

8:50

felt like years just laying there . But, you know, years

8:54

just sitting in one moment I remember breathing, I remember

8:58

the hypnotic sound of my heart . Like I couldn't hear anybody

9:02

around me . I couldn't talk to anybody. I was just listening

9:05

to this hypnotic. And I was hypnotized by and just

9:10

completely like suspended in this moment . And then , um, I

9:15

was very sharply woken up by someone who was tapping me on

9:19

the shoulder and they were saying my name . And I , it was

9:23

like the coming back into and , and then I just started listen

9:30

was to instructions like, can you hear me? Can you steal me?

9:35

Can you talk to me? Can you tell me that you're okay ? And,

9:38

and then they were talking neat through , you know , we're

9:41

gonna put something around your neck. You're gonna us put the

9:44

gurney behind your back. We're gonna roll you over , we're

9:47

gonna do this . And then people , I heard people talking about

9:51

my feet and then I, I held him touching my legs and , and

9:56

saying , you know , can you feel , can you feel my touch?

10:00

Can you feel when I touch this and that ? And then can you

10:03

move your legs ? And , and then before you , before I knew it ,

10:06

I was in the ambulance . And then I found myself in rash

10:11

hospital. Even though I didn't know I was in rash hospital, I

10:14

just found myself in a hospital. And uh , I remember

10:18

people talking me through what they were doing next and you

10:21

kind of just go onto this medical machine , which is like

10:25

scan, scan, scan, scan surgery. And uh, yeah, when I woke up, I

10:31

was, I wasn't allowed to move anymore. I was completely like

10:36

laying flat. I had , um, basically rods in my back

10:41

because I had no vertible body there anymore. So they had to

10:44

secure my back and I had bandages on my feet and I had

10:48

this thing in my leg that was like this external contraption

10:53

that does traction to bring your leg into alignment. Cause

10:56

I was, this part of my body was now in my rib cage . And so

11:00

they had to bring it down . And uh , yeah, that was it . And I

11:04

, I just remember having bruises all the way to my

11:08

elbows on my arms and having cannulas everywhere and , and a

11:13

blood transfusion and waking up and in that kind of place is

11:17

kind of very stark awakening

11:20

Speaker 1: Course . Yeah . And so when you fell and you landed , you were conscious throughout the entire part of this

11:25

process. Yeah . Which it's okay . Gosh, it's incredible what

11:28

your mind will do to protect your body. Cause I'm hearing

11:31

you saying like you focused it on your heartbeat. It's kind of

11:34

, you are there but you're not there. Uh , I mean, aside from

11:37

the fact that you are like still living and breathing, and

11:39

not only that, but you're actually thriving, just the fact that your mind can kind of control such a terribly

11:45

traumatic experience and get you through it is just

11:49

Speaker 2: Wild. It is wild. But you know, I , I don't think

11:52

that this is something that's unique to me. I think this is

11:55

something that happens to everybody in those moments of

11:59

survival. Like people, you know, say to me, oh, you must

12:02

have been in so much pain. And actually initially I didn't

12:04

feel any pain. I only felt started to feel pain when I got

12:08

into the hospital and people were mu me around then I was in

12:12

a lot of pain. But initially, like the moments that I

12:15

happened , I didn't feel anything. And uh, really

12:18

interestingly, it's all of this stuff and stuff happens like

12:21

automatically, you don't think, oh, brain, don't focus on the

12:25

pain, focus on the breathing. But you're just there . You're

12:28

just focusing on your breathing . You have nothing else to kind

12:32

of clasp onto . You don't have enough cognition to powerfully

12:38

move away from what your body's naturally meant to do . And ,

12:42

uh, in those moments of survival, I think we just bold

12:46

to these operational processes that our bodies do on a

12:51

cellular level and they're just like, ok , great. And that's ,

12:54

Speaker 1: So it's incredible that we actually have, you know , that we're living in these incredible machines. Um, I

12:58

interviewed Marcus Smith, you probably know him. He's an

13:00

ultra athlete and he, he was knocked off his bicycle when he

13:04

was out doing one of his crazy training sessions and he was

13:07

hit by a truck on one of the roads to Fuji and he was thrown

13:10

across the road and he actually said he came out of his body

13:13

and watched the whole thing as give him a goosebump, even now

13:16

just talking to you and talking to him, he watched his body

13:18

from the other side of the road and he watched people coming

13:20

and he watched them attendings to him, which is obviously, you

13:23

know, your body's, your mind is doing something to take you out

13:26

of that situation so that you can, you know, survive it.

13:29

Right . I guess because living through, you know, I'm lying on

13:32

the tarmac and my body is broken, is just too much for

13:34

you to be able to comprehend. So incredible and incredible

13:38

just to hear you talk about it. Thank you for sharing that so openly. I mean, just such a hugely, hugely traumatic

13:43

incident. And then obviously you then had a very long

13:46

recovery period as well. I mean , I really don't think anyone

13:48

would've blamed you, Caroline, if you'd have just said, right, that's it. Now I'm gonna sit on the sofa, I'm gonna crack open

13:53

the s I'm just gonna have a really quiet life. And yet

13:57

actually you've done completely the opposite. So you're actually living a very bold, brave life and just doing all

14:01

this adventuring and exploring, I mean, what in was it, what is

14:04

it inside you that compels you to do this and to carry on

14:06

taking these huge challenges after you've been through something so traumatic ?

14:10

Speaker 2: I dunno entirely, but I feel like it's , um,

14:14

without getting too deep here , it's this idea of like , how do

14:20

I explain this in , in every moment in our life, accepting

14:24

what is , and once we accept what is really understanding ,

14:30

this is how it was for me is , okay , I'm here now , what am I

14:35

gonna do with this now ? And being able to transcend every

14:38

moment of darkness, like that's what this whole thing has

14:44

taught me. And now I'm able to do it much faster because of

14:50

this experience. And I have learned to understand the

14:53

process of that. What I find really interesting is that

14:57

every, everybody has trauma in their life . Everybody has

15:00

something, whether it's, you know , the loss of a child or

15:03

whether it's the loss of your parents or an accident or a

15:06

divorce or any of those things . But it really is about how

15:12

what we do with that and how we transcend that moment. And it's

15:17

very easy to see and it's very easy to become complacent and

15:23

get stuck in a moment. Like , I am a person who had an accident

15:27

and this is me forever, and I'm allowing myself to get stuck in

15:31

this moment in time where this is me now forever. And I don't

15:37

think that we have to do that. And I , and it certainly wasn't

15:40

what I chose to do . And again, it wasn't a choice that I made

15:43

consciously, it was just how I came out of the situation

15:49

happened to be really a lot of work for me, and I chose to

15:55

take on the work. Like after I had my accident, I realized

15:59

that, oh, okay , my, my body's getting better, but there's

16:02

something really wrong with my mind. Like my mind is just in

16:07

this complete disarray and I didn't know how to fix that

16:11

properly. And I didn't know how to bring my mind and my body

16:14

back together. So there was like unity and collusion of

16:17

thought and feeling because I was doing this and feeling and

16:23

saying this, and there was a real disconnection. And I

16:27

started to acknowledge that disconnection. It was about how

16:31

do I bring myself back so that I'm a whole person? And uh ,

16:35

when I started to dive into those things into my mind and

16:39

the psychology of it , then it just naturally startled to

16:43

happen where I was taking one step in my mind and then the

16:48

next step, and then the next step and the next step. And

16:50

then this whole kind of world opened up to me and , and

16:54

startled to snowball really. And yeah, and I , I'm sure at

16:58

some stage, this part of my life will come to an end and

17:02

I'll allow it to end gracefully and then, you know, flower in a

17:06

different direction. And Speaker 1: You mentioned, you said, so my body was healing,

17:09

but my mind wasn't. You , you said something really powerful.

17:12

Like what , what do you mean your mind wasn't healing or the , your mind was, I don't think you said the word broken, but

17:16

you said, you know , my mind, I was basically struggling with that part of it. So

17:19

Speaker 2: After I had 14 surgeries and, you know, 23

17:23

blood transfusions and a lot of work, when I started to do

17:27

rehab, I could see that there was, there's a lot of progress

17:31

in my physical being . I was going to hydrotherapy and, you

17:36

know, from one week to the next I was able to sit up and then I

17:39

was able to roll over and I was able to crawl in rehab and I

17:43

was able to drag myself on my elbows. So I was doing a lot of

17:47

things that were physically making them stronger and I was

17:50

able to see those physical changes very quickly. But I

17:55

started to notice there was a splintering in my psyche, like

18:00

my head was doing something different and I , I can't

18:04

describe this except to say that it was like my personality

18:09

had splinted into like an angel and a devil. Like there was

18:13

something that was self-sabotaging, everything

18:16

that I was doing. And it was like, you know , who do you

18:19

think you are walking again ? You can't walk . What are you

18:21

doing ? You just disabled, you can't do this . And then there

18:25

was this part of me that was trying to get better and heal

18:29

and go to rehab and go to therapy. And then this other

18:32

part of me was just complete self-destruction. And uh , when

18:35

I started to see all the ways in which my personality had

18:40

splinted, I started to recognize that I needed to come

18:43

back and be whole again. It wasn't just about making my

18:48

body like the only way that I was really gonna heal was if I

18:52

healed everything. And that was my speech, my thought, my body,

18:58

my mind, my will , all of those things. The ethereal stuff that

19:02

we don't really think about every day . Speaker 1: No, absolutely. Very powerful. And I mean clearly

19:07

you're, you're extremely strong, you've got huge amount of tenacity and, and some of this you potentially maybe

19:12

learned from what you went through with the recovery from

19:15

the accident. I mean, how much did you have to teach yourself

19:17

this? And how much do you think was kind of already within you?

19:21

Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I think perhaps it was already

19:24

all there dormant and sleeping and then I just woken up. But I

19:29

also feel like that's probably true for everybody because

19:32

inside us we have this , you know , ancestral DNA and this

19:36

ancestral survival stuff that is impregnated in ourselves.

19:40

And I believe that we all have that there. I think perhaps

19:46

society and culture just dumbs it down. Society teaches us

19:50

that we're not good enough and that we , we don't have all the

19:53

power in us and we don't have this and that we're lacking so

19:56

much . And really it's about remembering , I think,

19:59

remembering that actually, you know, I am an artist and I have

20:03

all the power inside of me and I have, you know, everything

20:06

that I need to sustain the right inside of me.

20:10

Speaker 1: No, 100% . And you know, it's something that a lot

20:12

of my guests, a lot of themes come up for the amount of

20:15

people that I've spoken to over the years. And this is a really

20:17

strong theme. I think Dennis Murphy said it most recently,

20:19

he's the gentleman who wrote The Blame Game, which is an

20:21

amazing book. Um , but he says, you know, literally we've got

20:24

everything that we need, whether that's physically, biologically, and mentally, you know, everything is there. But

20:30

we're kind of taught and like , like you say, society, we're

20:33

taught from a very young age that things must be hard. It's

20:35

a battle, you've gotta fight for what you want. It's not

20:38

gonna be easy. And it's not to say life is always easy or to

20:41

sort of do this, you know , positive, toxic positivity or

20:44

whatever. It's, but he said, you know, everything is there,

20:47

there within us and it's just a question of reminding yourself

20:49

of that. And, and once you tap into that, then you know ,

20:52

that's when you kind of become superhuman because you have

20:54

this innate self-belief and this innate innate strength,

20:57

which I think we're kind of , yeah , it's beating out of us in many different ways as we go through life . But yeah, many

21:02

people have said similar to me, so I completely agree. Doesn't

21:04

sound strange at all. I mean, we've obviously, and I'm

21:06

self-perpetuating this because I've started by asking you

21:09

about your accident, but do you ever feel a , like it just

21:11

defines you a bit too much? Are you , are you tired of talking

21:13

about it? Do you want to just sort of put it behind you or is

21:16

it innately sort of tied in with who you Hannah ?

21:19

Speaker 2: No, you know, at one stage I was kind of like, I

21:21

don't wanna talk about this anymore . But on a personal

21:24

level, like I made a decision on social media that I , that I

21:27

wasn't gonna talk about all the time. Um, I do speak about it.

21:32

Cause what I've come to realize is that there is, I have hope

21:39

that through my story I can help other people realize the

21:43

same thing, that they have everything that they need

21:46

really. And it's made me shy away less from speaking about

21:53

it and more being gracious enough to share it with people

21:57

so that it's not something I selfishly hold, like this is

22:02

mine. I wanna be able to share it with other people. Cause

22:06

when I reflect back, it's actually how I recovered was

22:10

also by watching this in other people. So I remember very

22:15

early on when I was in , uh, in the hospital, I used to watch

22:19

this girl called the Amy Purdy . And she's like this

22:22

Paralympian who's had both of her loves amputated. And I used

22:25

to watch her on social media and watch her walking and, and

22:29

I remember visualizing the same thing in myself, like, okay ,

22:33

she, if she can walk, I can walk. So I kind of used her

22:38

story more than she would ever know to really motivate myself

22:43

to do the same. And I feel like I have the opportunity now to

22:47

hopefully do the same to other people and therefore it's

22:50

something that I wanna do . No, that I

22:53

Speaker 1: Completely agree . It's such a beautiful way of putting it. I like to be gracious enough to share it . I

22:56

think there's just such a lovely way of expressing it. I

22:59

mean obviously you had this big accident whilst you were

23:01

climbing, you've just come back from climbing another mountain.

23:04

What did it feel like the very first time you started doing

23:08

something, doing the climbing again , and this is the very

23:10

thing that had injured you? What did that first climb feel

23:13

like? It was Speaker 2: Awful. Speaker 1: Was it really ? Oh my goodness . I thought you

23:17

were gonna say . Oh fantastic . Oh really? It's

23:20

Speaker 2: Really hard. It was really hard. I was with , um, I

23:23

was with a friend of mine in Australia . We were climbing

23:25

mount and uh , at couldn't walk more than two hours in one feet

23:34

were so sore, they would just get really swollen and stiff.

23:38

And the second that my feet, something used to happen to my

23:41

feet when they got tired, they just gave , gave up . And I

23:45

couldn't get them to work like normal feet . Like they , they

23:48

couldn't do this thing. I could just shuffle. And then when my

23:53

right foot would give up , then my hip would start , I'd start

23:56

limping really badly . And I remember getting halfway up

23:59

this mountain , it's only a six hour walk to the summit , it's

24:02

one day . And I just started crying and, and my friend was

24:06

like, okay , can let me piggyback you. So he was

24:10

piggybacking me and then we had to call the park ranger cause I

24:13

couldn't walk . And yeah . And then the park ranger drove up ,

24:17

picked us up , took us down and drove home . And then for a

24:20

week , oh my goodness , what used to happen to me all the

24:23

time, I'd go through AK walk and then I'd be in bed for four

24:27

days and then AK walk . And then in bed. Fortunately enough

24:32

, my feet started to learn how to take weight and pressure

24:36

again . And they learned that skill . But it took time to be

24:40

able to, you know, go for a walk and then consecutively the

24:43

next day be able to do it again. Gosh , Speaker 1: All these things that we just paid for granted.

24:47

And yet you carried on Caroline, you didn't just think , you didn't , you didn't open those s and sit on the sofa ,

24:51

you just carried on you , Speaker 2: You Speaker 1: Kept going back out there .

24:54

Speaker 2: Yeah , honestly feel like I had no choice . The

24:57

stakes were really , it was , I'm either gonna accept what

25:02

is, which means I'm gonna be disabled and be in a wheelchair

25:05

for the rest of my life, or I'm gonna try something different.

25:09

And I just , you know , early made the decision to try and

25:13

really partly out of complete and out of water . I had no

25:17

job. I was confined to a hospital bed at plane . There's

25:21

, there was nothing that I could do except participate in

25:25

my life. Well , no ,

25:27

Speaker 1: Completely. And and when you first announced you were gonna go off climbing again, how did your friends and

25:31

family react when you told them ? Speaker 2: I think the first big challenge that I did was to

25:37

go and climb all the mountains in the Middle East. And when I

25:42

told that to my friend , they were not so worried about the

25:44

climbing. They were just like, you're going to every country

25:47

in the Middle East <laugh> . And that was more of a concern

25:51

back then. Like they all were really worried that I was gonna

25:54

go climb a mountain in Iraq like that stuff , or I was

25:59

gonna travel to Yemen. It was more more about that. But what

26:03

I discovered is that I just, something inside of me came

26:08

alive and this was the avenue in which came alive in . And I,

26:14

at the time, I just had to listen to that and trust that.

26:18

Cause I couldn't, I couldn't, I didn't have any, anything else

26:22

in my life that was a full green light. Do you know what I

26:25

mean? When your soul is just like, I know this is the right

26:29

thing for me and I cannot explain it to anybody else, but

26:33

I just know that this is my path . And I had to trust that.

26:37

And I did, I trusted it fullheartedly as obscure and

26:41

absurd and stupid and ridiculous as it sounded at the

26:44

time. I just had to trust that cause it was the thing in my

26:48

life that was like, I felt so deeply and viscerally and I

26:52

just followed it Speaker 1: As , as you're explaining it to me, thinking

26:55

of course you have to go and climb a mountain lightweight when it's that it's not even that it's important to you, but

26:59

it's almost it's part of you than how can you argue

27:03

Speaker 2: With them . And you know, since then I've become so

27:06

superstitious about mountains. Like when I went to Chile , the

27:11

local indigenous people in Chile were telling me that the

27:14

mountains are spirits and they call them the ands and mountain

27:20

spirit, a mountain god. And each of the mountains have a

27:23

story and they have an essence and a feeling. And when we walk

27:27

to them , we can't communicate and share part of our story

27:31

with their story. And so when you start to look at the really

27:35

ancient shaman kind of healing rituals that people do, people

27:39

go to sacred places to heal. And uh , and now that I

27:44

understand that a little bit more, I kinda get an essence of

27:47

what I was doing. I was going to these mountains that

27:50

obviously had something that I needed and they were healing me

27:54

as much as I was, you know , visiting them . Oh ,

27:59

Speaker 1: This is so beautiful, this whole mountain spirits. And I don't think people talk about this enough,

28:03

I feel that, but we do like to be quite outdoorsy in the UAE

28:05

when the weather permits and people are often hiking or going, you know, outdoors. But we don't talk about the sort of

28:11

spiritual side of it as much, I don't think. And what, what you

28:14

, the feeling that you can get and the power that they've got

28:16

is sort of beyond the space and beyond the being outdoors and

28:19

the beyond, you know, what you're doing for yourself. I

28:21

think that's really interesting. It's the first time I've ever heard anyone explain it like that. And I was

28:25

actually gonna ask you, but I think you've answered the

28:27

question. So you actually, you climbed from Mount Sidley at

28:29

New Year, which is the highest <inaudible> peak in Antarctica,

28:31

which I was obsessed with by the way. I was checking every

28:34

day to see where you were because Antarctica just absolutely fascinates me. But , um, it was minus 30, you're

28:40

pulling a sled, you were saying that like if you take your goggles off your eyeballs for <laugh> , you can go snow blind

28:45

. I was like, oh my goodness. Like what , what about this is

28:47

pleasurable for you, but now you've just explained I think to me what it is. But I mean, how , how do you sort of go

28:52

through an experience like that that obviously is your calling,

28:55

it's , it's so important to you, but also it's just really

28:57

blinking hard as well. Like physically this is a very hard

29:00

thing to do. How do you get through that? Speaker 2: Do you know? It's really funny, but I don't feel

29:05

the hardness of it anymore. I feel kind of the piece of it,

29:11

if that makes sense. Like , um, what I was saying to some of my

29:15

friends is when I was in in Antarctica it was like I was

29:19

vibrating something like joy, like in my whole system there

29:24

was just joy. I was so happy to be there . And the team that I

29:28

had at the time was so great that it was just, it was this

29:33

perfect storm of amazingness and I was, yeah, I was just

29:38

operating on pure joy. It was the best experience of my life.

29:41

And I, now that I've been to Sydney , I get a , a sense of

29:45

her, she's on half of her is completely white and kinda this

29:51

rolling like uphill snow and ice and it's beautiful. And at

29:56

the top she's got these big mushroom like mushroom and

30:00

configuration. So they're just stunning. And then the other

30:03

side is an open caldera . So like the volcano is open

30:07

sideways and it's this big circular like volcanic opening

30:12

. And so she almost has this duality to her. She's immensely

30:17

beautiful and then immensely harsh and unforgiving. And then

30:22

there's all these little baby volcanoes around. So I call her

30:26

the , you know , the mother goddess of volcanoes because

30:29

she has that, that feel to her she's like humble and beautiful

30:33

and then very sharp and harsh and unforgiving and it's

30:39

beautiful to be able to, you know, walk on her on her ground

30:45

and feel what she's about . It was very beautiful. So when

30:49

you're in the presence and you are quiet enough to hear it and

30:55

to feel it , you don't feel that , oh my god, I'm

30:58

uncomfortable and my leg hurts. And this , because you're just

31:02

literally in the most amazing environment in the world and

31:08

you are just lucky enough to be able to hear, hear what this

31:12

mountain has to say . And it's just, it's really humbling and

31:16

it's so beautiful. So when I was there, I didn't really feel

31:20

how hard it was. You know, there were moments where it was

31:24

very miserable because it was very cold, but you know , you

31:28

kind of , you deal with it and you laugh and joke around and ,

31:32

and like I was at one stage my team, they were laughing at me

31:38

because I wouldn't even leave my suit . I was in this full

31:42

suit was all I wouldn't get outta so slept fully in a puffy

31:49

suit in a , a big minus 40 sleeping bag in a sleeping bag

31:55

liner in a full like Everest puffy suit.

31:58

Speaker 1: Sounds like the best option to me. I mean, you're talking to the woman who really struggles doing two minutes in

32:02

a nice bath. So this sounds perfect for me. Keep lemme keep

32:05

the suits on. I mean every year is sort of a ritual aside from

32:09

the Christmas time . My daughter and I go to Ski Dubai

32:11

, you know, when it's getting really hot in the summer, we're like, we just gotta go and be cold. I mean we last about half

32:15

an hour in there. So how <laugh> Ski Dubai wonderful.

32:18

Not the same as being on top of the mountain . I mean, aside, aside from anything else, you're not, you are kind of

32:23

visiting these amazing places that probably so few, few

32:25

people have been to. I mean, how does that feel? That must

32:28

feel like such an immense privilege. Speaker 2: It really is . You know, I'm very lucky and I know

32:33

that and I'm grateful of that every day . Cause I really am .

32:38

It just, I always think that, that if we allow those hard

32:42

moments in our lives to take over us, they, we get stuck in

32:46

that they , if we can transcend them , then the greatest

32:50

opportunities open up . If we listen to what's really in our

32:54

hearts and what we really want and that deep calling within us

32:58

. And I'm very lucky that I did , um, because it's opened up

33:03

the most amazing opportunities for me as an individual and as

33:06

a woman. And uh , yeah, as as a client . It's been incredible.

33:12

Speaker 1: It sounds amazing. And so you're now obviously a

33:14

very pet and healthy and you've even created a business which

33:17

is sort of all around wellness and exercise and fitness. What

33:21

do you think about this whole mind body connection and, and

33:24

how our health and fitness is to some extent? I mean

33:26

obviously there's a lot of things that play into this, but a lot of our health is dictated by our mental state. What do

33:31

you think about that? Speaker 2: I am a great believer in that the mind and

33:36

the body are not separate. And that most of the time our mind

33:42

will manifest disease and our mind can also manifest health .

33:47

And it's just really our choice. And uh , I feel like

33:51

that is the first thing . The medical industry is very quick

33:55

to say, oh, you know, you have cancer or you have , uh,

33:58

arthritis or an autoimmune condition. And, and that's

34:02

completely separate to your mind. But I don't feel like

34:05

they're separate at all. And you know, from what I've read

34:08

of and some of the other psychologists that are

34:11

pioneering this mind body thing, I really feel like we

34:16

are one being , we are a mind , a body and a spirit. And you

34:22

cannot separate those things . And the greatest way to make

34:27

yourself come alive is to ignite your spirit and then

34:31

your mind and your body will . But if she , your spirit has

34:35

nothing to be alive for , like you're not doing something that

34:38

makes you feel alive, why wouldn't wanna participate this

34:42

? And so I think there is , you know , trifecta and going and

34:48

really have to kind of do them all. Like you have to state

34:52

your spirit on fire and then your body and your mind follows

34:56

or vice versa or something like that. But yeah, I think they're

35:00

separate at all. Speaker 1: I completely agree. And I mean you talk about sort

35:03

of this something being ignited in you. I mean you clearly have

35:06

a very sort of, you have fantastic energy and you have a

35:09

very clear purpose about what you want to do in your life. I

35:12

mean, how can we sort of try and tap into that more, you

35:15

know, without, without necessarily being superhuman

35:17

like you and climbing 10 mountains or 20 mountains or 30

35:20

mountains. How can we sort of tap into that purpose and, and

35:23

listen to it and find out what we're supposed to be doing? Speaker 2: I am not superhuman at all. I'm just a normal

35:29

person <laugh> , you know , I'm just doing what, what feels

35:33

right for me . And uh , I think that can be translated into

35:37

any, any other thing. I dunno how to like express or convey

35:43

the idea of how you do that for yourself. But I, I think it's

35:47

really about listening to what you're interested in and

35:50

listening to what , what you love. And once you kind of

35:55

start to walk that path , like, this is what I love, this is

35:58

what I'm interested in. I think that it starts to open

36:02

naturally, but it has to be so authentic. There can't be any

36:08

rubbish around that idea. There can't be, oh I wanna be saying

36:12

this and there can't be like any social media . Like it has

36:17

to be so pure and I, I dunno how to explain how you get that

36:22

kinda purity of feeling, but it has to be. Cause if it isn't

36:27

pure and if it's inauthentic, it just won't have legs. It has

36:34

to be more and real and pure and something that you do

36:40

despite whatever else is around you, you have to believe it too

36:44

. That's the best kind of explanation that I can , I can

36:48

give to that . I dunno anything else beyond that , even though

36:52

I've experienced it myself, but it just has to be pure. You

36:56

Speaker 1: Seem you've got this great energy, you're very optimistic, you must still have bad days. I don't know if

37:01

you're still coping with any sort of relics of, of the

37:03

accident, whether or not you're still dealing with physical

37:06

pain, but how, how do you handle these bad days and how

37:08

do you get through them and, and think about your next mountain and think about your next challenge?

37:12

Speaker 2: You know , I have like everybody else, I have bad

37:15

days, I have arguments with people, I have like difficulty

37:19

with my family, with friendships, with all of that .

37:22

But whenever those issues come up , come up , I seem to have

37:27

become very superstitious with life . Um, in the sense that I

37:33

kind of like step back and I'm like, oh , like this is really

37:36

interesting that this is happening. Why is this

37:39

happening? And I do a lot of reflection. So if I have an

37:43

argument with my sister, I will step away from that and be

37:47

like, oh, like what just happened there ? What's going

37:50

on? And I start to think about what my part in that is. How am

37:55

I keeping us trapped in the same behavior? And for me these

37:59

days, it really is just about moving and I don't wanna keep

38:03

my family stuck in my rubbish. And so if it's my rubbish, then

38:07

I need some pick up on it . And then I'm , I'm so sorry , I

38:11

love you . Please forgive me . How can I help you ? Or

38:14

something like , and that seems to be beneficial for me to not

38:23

stay stuck as well and acknowledging where I make

38:26

mistakes and and stuff like that. And you know, just being

38:30

gracious, like I , I don't wanna fight with people I'm not

38:33

right. Like it's, and I used to be very much like, no, I'm

38:40

right and continue to argue and argue and argue , argue and

38:43

argue . And now I realize , okay , I just needed few

38:46

minutes to check myself and check what this discussion is ,

38:51

my own , my my own insecurities, my rubbish, my

38:56

baggage, all of that stuff. And then just, you know,

38:59

acknowledge it and try and let it go and figure out where it

39:02

comes from. Stuff like that. It's, you know , it's a lot of

39:06

work to be conscious and to be conscious and present in your

39:10

own life and your own actions , but I've found that it works

39:16

best for me because then I can move forward . And I think now

39:22

in this part of my life I'm moving forward faster than I

39:26

was and I'm only talking about mentally and spiritually

39:31

because of this idea and this just taking full responsibility

39:35

and just like move on forward as much as possible. And then

39:39

also trying to make the right decision. Like I, I had

39:44

recently some moments where I was on a mountain with somebody

39:46

and they were really sick and collapsed and they were like,

39:50

you know , you keep going, go on. And I was like, oh , I

39:54

could totally go on it . We're so close. And then I was like,

39:58

oh no, no , no , no , no , that's , that's not the right thing to do. No summit is worth this . And then just being able

40:03

to go, no , like this is the right thing to do . Yeah ,

40:07

Speaker 1: Just take a lot of work though, like you say and , and it has a lot of sort of leaving your ego behind as well

40:12

I guess I think is is key to it all. Which I think, I think it

40:15

becomes a bit easier as you get older. I always remember a

40:17

friend of mine said many years ago we're talking like over 10

40:20

years ago she was introducing me to somebody and we were chatting and she said, yeah it's really important to Kelly

40:24

that that she's right must been , must have been debating some

40:27

sort of. And I just thought, oh God yeah it's really important

40:30

to me to be right. And then I sort of went away and thought about it and it was like, why is it so important to me to be

40:34

right And you know, did a lot of unpacking around that and,

40:36

and now I can honestly say it just doesn't, doesn't matter to

40:39

me so much anymore . Still matters to me sometimes cause

40:41

I'm a work in progress. But yeah this needing to be right

40:44

this needing to sort of always have the last word Speaker 2: All a working <laugh> very well . So

40:50

Speaker 1: Very much. And over the last , I mean you've , you

40:52

strike me as somebody who's sort of a constant quest for

40:54

self-improvement and I wondered if over the last five years or

40:58

so, if there's any sort of new belief or new behavior or a

41:01

habit that's really improved your life. Speaker 2: Um, everything now is in my head <laugh> .

41:07

Basically all of the self-improvement. It's just,

41:10

it's my life is the same on the outside, just much more

41:13

peaceful. But everything is in my head . I am one whole being

41:18

that just breathes and thinks and fuels all on the same

41:23

cohesive pattern . I really like, I can't remember his

41:25

name, Gabrielle Cruz or something like that. He has

41:30

four agreements and it's uh , one of them is the impeccable

41:34

with your word . That one really resonates with me a lot.

41:38

And I am on a constant quest to be impeccable with my word

41:43

because I'll feel like words have energy and the more that

41:48

I'll clean with my speech , um, and that includes what I say

41:52

about myself and what I say about other people and what I

41:55

say about things in general, the more my life reflects that

41:59

clarity. So that's probably one. And yeah, I try and look

42:05

at everything as well an opportunity. And everything's a

42:08

good, I try and move through obstacles very quickly, which

42:12

is to kind of see, see them for what they are and acknowledge

42:16

them , acknowledge my part in them and really start to work

42:19

through the feelings that are stuck in those moments and then

42:23

what it is that's really right for me . There's some good

42:27

things and then in every moment I just try and be authentic as

42:32

possible. And that really comes to the being impeccable with

42:35

your word. Cause I don't wanna lie and I don't wanna be full

42:39

of. So when I catch myself saying something that isn't

42:42

really authentic, I'm like, ah . Like that's not really real

42:47

or true or, and the more I can do that then I just, you know,

42:53

the other stuff kind of seems to fall away. Speaker 1: And I think that that's so interesting what you

42:58

said about being impeccable with your word, but that also

43:00

counts on what you say to yourself and about yourself because yeah, I think it's, it's, well for me anyways,

43:05

much, you know, I'm loving giving, I say great things to

43:09

people about people, but the way that sometimes I speak to

43:11

myself and the way that we speak to ourselves, especially I think it's quite gendered as well, I think as women as well.

43:16

Cause there's so much noise outside that can be a lot harder and that's something that we often forget about. I

43:20

definitely forget about it. So yeah. That's really interesting. Thank you for mentioning that .

43:24

Speaker 2: Do you know what's really funny is that when I forget that and I start saying like rubbish about myself, I

43:30

listen to this book, I dunno you've heard of it's called of

43:33

course . So Yes , this book . And it's like , so he talks the

43:39

whole thing and yeah , I have that on Audible and I just

43:44

listen to it and he's like, you know when you have a thought

43:48

and you have to analyze the thought, is it true or is it

43:51

not true? And I do that like, is this thought true? Which is

43:55

like, you know, for women it's like, oh I, I don't, I'm not

43:58

beautiful, I don't look good , I'm fat or all of this stuff.

44:01

I'm like, is this true? Is it not true? Where in my life is

44:05

this reflected that it's true? So I do this thing that he says

44:08

and, and then I'm like, yeah, it's. And then it's like, I

44:12

can't think that anymore . I can't think it , I can't say it

44:14

, it's gone like a Speaker 1: No , I , I love Wayne. I mean I still listened

44:18

to, he had a podcast , um, cuz he had a radio show back in the

44:21

day . So there's actually a podcast which is all his sort

44:24

of radio shows and they still released them like one couple,

44:26

a couple a week. I still listen to them in the car. His voice

44:29

is so soothing and so beautiful and, and I have so much great

44:32

stuff to say about everything Speaker 2: Honest and real. No, that's what I , I love, I hate

44:38

like the inauthentic like gurus . The people were like, I'm

44:43

gonna preach to you. But inside it's hollow like that I not

44:48

into. Yeah , but Wayne I agree. It's just so,

44:52

Speaker 1: And a lot of people I've noticed that you know, have now come to grow sort of great acclaim. They're actually

44:57

taking his stuff and and trying to pass it off as their own or

45:01

regurgitating it and it's actually, it's all

45:03

Speaker 2: From him. Speaker 1: So yeah. No , I totally agree. He's amazing.

45:06

Slightly more light question now from the very deep things

45:08

we've been discussing. If you could climb a mountain with anyone, Caroline, anyone at all world's leader , celebrity, who

45:14

would be your ideal climbing partner to take up to one of

45:16

those very extreme heights where your eyeballs might

45:19

freeze? Speaker 2: I dunno , do you know I've never climbed a

45:22

mountain with my sisters and I think I would really like to do

45:26

that with them . I'm really lucky that I have really good

45:30

people. Like my sisters are really good people. They're

45:33

pains in the butt and they drive me crazy. But I think

45:36

outta anybody in the world , I'd probably go with Sam . Yeah

45:39

. Because I know we'd get up there , just laugh , I know

45:44

that then be complaining and there'd be gold and then the

45:47

three of us would be in the same sleeping bag . I like it .

45:50

It would just, you know, when you're with family, you're just

45:53

all huddled in the same space and it's funny and yeah,

45:57

probably my sisters Speaker 1: Probably an answer . I hope they listen to this and

46:01

Phil , um, Speaker 2: So warm Speaker 1: And , and , and they're not such pains in the

46:04

butt towards you after they've heard that lovely answer. <laugh> , um, you mentioned a couple of authors obviously,

46:10

but are there any sort of special books that you keep

46:12

going back to or any, any books that have meant something to

46:14

you? Do you ever take a book up the mountain? Do you have space

46:17

to do that? Speaker 2: Yeah , I take a book all the time . So I read Wayne

46:23

Dyer a lot. Um, I don't read Louise Hay , but I used to,

46:28

when I was a bit younger, I used to read her a lot and

46:31

really been really interested in rum Dust recently. So he's

46:36

got an autobiography that I just devoured and , and I love

46:40

his book because again, he's just really honest and real and

46:45

uh, yeah, it's um, that kind of stuff. I've been reading a lot

46:50

about shamanism at the moment. Cause when I was in Chile

46:55

recently, I , I got to hear all of these stories of the

46:58

mountains and the spirits and stuff. So I've been reading a

47:01

lot about that, which I really like. Even in Mexico, the, the

47:05

Mexican mountain, how they have stories and spirits to them as

47:09

well and it's full on room and Juliet lost story , which like

47:12

I fell in love with , so I've been reading a bit of that .

47:15

Yeah . But I take books on almost every mountain and uh ,

47:19

yeah , train . I love reading. It's , you know , amazing.

47:24

Speaker 1: I'm gonna look for this round D book . Cause Wayne

47:26

Dyer mentions him a lot. They were very good friends apparently. So yeah, I've heard him reference but I didn't

47:30

realize he had an autobiography. So I'll go and dig that out and um, and have a look. Thank you for that

47:34

recommendation. And given everything that you've been

47:37

through, you know, this huge sort of upheaval trauma, you

47:40

then achieved so much since then and your this fully formed

47:43

human being. What , what do you consider to be your greatest

47:46

achievement out of all of Speaker 2: These things? Getting to know myself probably

47:52

is , yeah, I think , um, I was probably quite inauthentic

47:57

before all of this happened. I never felt inauthentic. I felt

48:01

like I was real at the time. But yeah, now it's just, it's

48:05

different. I very, very different and I can see when

48:09

I'm around my family I can see it the most because the , all

48:14

the stuff that used to trigger me about them when we used to

48:17

get upset and cry and now we have like two minute and

48:23

they're just like , bang that and it's over . Whereas used to

48:28

drive on and on. I've used to go days about talking to each

48:31

other and yeah, now it's quick . But yeah, that's probably my

48:35

greatest achievement is just to get to know who I am and what

48:39

I'm about and what I hear on this world to do. And I don't

48:42

know , I really feel like , um, those psychologists were right,

48:48

you know , uh, Carl Young when he said the only thing that

48:52

we're really meant to do here is to know who we're and uh ,

48:56

and to what I kind of think is that life is not about the

49:00

things that you accumulate , but it's about the blossoms

49:04

that you kinda move through. And for me, like as a being, I

49:11

feel like okay , the , the greatest gift that I have here

49:15

is to live, which means that everything that is coming to me

49:20

is like a gift from the universe to help me grow and

49:25

move forward. And now that I see it that way, I like, oh,

49:30

okay , this is, yeah, this is just the Mox chapter in

49:34

whatever it is that I'm meant to learn and whatever it is

49:37

that I'm meant to do and how I'm meant to do that . And I

49:40

think that's probably my greatest achievement is

49:44

probably to get my, to know myself just a little bit more

49:46

than before. Speaker 1: Gosh, absolutely amazing. And yeah, very

49:51

powerful and what an incredible point to end on. Thank you so

49:53

much Caroline. I absolutely loved that conversation. Speaker 2: My pleasure and glad that I was able to sit down and

49:59

talk to you finally. It was lovely.

50:02

Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to the Good Intentions podcast. You can find links to issues and to

50:08

books that we discussed in the show notes. And you can look

50:10

for the podcast on Instagram. It's Good Intentions uae .

50:14

Please do make sure you subscribe to the podcast and if

50:16

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50:19

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