0:02

Welcome to Good Intentions, the

0:04

podcast where we explore the world around us to

0:07

find meaning and intention in what we do. I'm

0:09

Kelly Harvard and I'm on a mission to spread positive

0:12

stories that will inspire you to live a more meaningful

0:14

and connected life.

0:17

What about dying? How do you feel about that? Why

0:20

do some of us live longer than others? What

0:22

does the latest science teachers that will help us not only

0:25

live longer lives, but also to live fitter,

0:27

healthier and happier lives, even in

0:29

our twilight years ? Well, this week

0:31

my guest has all the answers where aging is concerned.

0:33

She's Professor Roseanne Kenny , who has

0:35

35 years of experience at the forefront of

0:37

aging medicine. She's a professor of

0:39

medical gerontology at Trinity College,

0:42

Dublin, director of the Mercers Institute

0:44

for Successful Aging and founding principal

0:46

investigator for the Irish Longitudinal Study

0:49

on Aging. Her book, age Proof

0:51

, the New Science of Living a Longer and Happier

0:53

Life draws on her own pioneering research.

0:55

And she's in Dubai at the Emirates Literature Festival.

0:57

Leading discussions on a life well lived , as

1:00

you would expect, professor Rose is an absolute

1:02

goldmine of information when it comes to aging.

1:05

And we had such an enlightening conversation

1:07

about everything from misconceptions

1:09

about aging to loneliness. And

1:11

we also discussed how purpose plays a huge part

1:14

in how we age. 80% of

1:16

our aging is under our control, and a positive

1:18

attitude is scientifically proven to help us age

1:20

well. I loved how much science

1:22

and data Professor Rose brought to the table along

1:25

with a healthy dose of practicality and useful

1:27

tips. Please enjoy our conversation.

1:29

Thanks so much for joining me today, professor

1:32

Rose, I'm really excited to talk to you on the Good Intentions

1:34

podcast.

1:34

Thank you. Thank you. Kelly .

1:36

You are gonna come and , uh, feature at the upcoming Emirates

1:39

Literature Festival, which is , uh, almost upon

1:41

us. Very exciting. Could you just start by

1:43

telling us a bit more about the book that brought you here

1:45

or that is bringing you here and why you wrote it?

1:47

So, I'm really looking forward to the Emirates

1:50

uh , literature Festival. It looks like a

1:53

wonderful lineup and I'm enthusiastic

1:55

to share some of the

1:58

learnings from my book age , how

2:00

I , to writing The

2:05

short version is I've been over

2:08

35 years as a clinical researcher

2:10

in the aging space. So

2:12

that means that I'm a clinician, a doctor,

2:15

professor of medical dermatology and Trinity College

2:18

in Dublin . But I also do an lot of research

2:20

in the area . Sometimes my clinical observations

2:23

lead to research or I've

2:26

also been involved in a very large population

2:28

study where we're understanding

2:31

what the aging process looks

2:33

like now for over a 12 year

2:35

period, we've been following the same people and

2:37

it's very, very detailed. Not

2:40

just health issues, but a

2:42

lot of social questions are

2:44

asked of , of participants and economic

2:47

questions. It's almost 10,000 people and

2:49

they're randomly selected from the population.

2:52

So whatever observations we make,

2:54

we can generalize. So it's a

2:56

very, very rich data and

2:58

the book is about sharing that data.

3:01

Ireland is one

3:03

of a number of countries now sisters , countries

3:06

who are running longitudinal studies in aging

3:08

. And we've built those studies

3:11

so that there is a common core of

3:14

questions in order to compare

3:17

different countries experience of

3:20

aging and the factors which are driving successful

3:23

aging or issues with aging,

3:25

et cetera . And of course, as

3:27

everybody listening knows, a

3:30

health issue doesn't occur in isolation.

3:33

It's always complicated by either

3:35

of a health issues or something within a

3:38

family circle or something. Social

3:40

or economic circumstances

3:43

play a big, big role in health. So

3:45

that's why the book was written to share

3:48

this rich tapestry of

3:50

factors that influence the aging process .

3:52

Interesting. I'm absolutely fascinating. I'm fascinated

3:55

by the whole sort of subject. So I'm , I'm really personally

3:57

in this as well. I can't wait to get a

3:59

copy when you come up . I'm , I'm waiting to get my copy so

4:01

that you can sign it. So , um,

4:03

<laugh>, so Kelly , but just , just to say

4:05

, of course everybody should be, cause

4:07

there's only one other alternative to getting

4:09

older <laugh>

4:11

<laugh> . Precisely, absolutely. And

4:13

, and there's so many misconceptions about it as well, and

4:15

it's such an interesting topic to sort of delve into . I mean

4:17

, one of the ones I love , which I think you you

4:19

talk about in your book is that only 20% of aging

4:22

comes from our genes . 80% of

4:24

it is lifestyle and attitude. You know, where you

4:26

often hear people say, oh yeah, well, you know, I'm this way

4:28

and you know, my mom was this way and my dad was this way.

4:30

And actually that's just not true. So

4:33

how does our attitude and lifestyle

4:35

and, and all those things, how do they affect our aging

4:37

primarily?

4:39

So this is one of the really good news stories

4:42

that 80% of

4:44

the process of aging is actually under

4:46

our control. It's dependent on our health

4:48

behaviors and other behaviors. Now we know about the

4:50

health behaviors very well, very

4:52

well established is the positive benefit of

4:55

physical activity , diet, et

4:57

cetera . We can talk about some of the other elements, but

5:00

that's hugely important cause most people

5:02

have exactly that misconception. You've

5:04

nicely outlined there. Most people assume

5:07

it's genes. And I see this frequently

5:09

in clinical practice where patients

5:12

will come in with heart disease and

5:15

their lifestyle behaviors are still poor. I

5:17

mean , they're o overweight, excessive alcohol , sometimes

5:20

smoking , et cetera . But they brush it

5:22

off and say, it doesn't matter in my case because

5:24

my mother lived 89 and my father to 90

5:26

, I don't need to worry. So that

5:28

misconception is, is out there very

5:31

much and it's really important and it's

5:33

important at an individual level . So we

5:35

are in control of our aging process more

5:37

or less. 80% of it for younger

5:40

people is related to our behaviors.

5:42

If you make it to 80 and

5:45

you have a family

5:47

history of longevity, then about

5:50

40% of the rest of your life

5:52

is driven by them , that genetic

5:55

makeup . So that's that , uh, that

5:57

scenario.

5:57

Gosh. So there's some really positive sort of

6:00

statistics there that we are control, which

6:02

yeah , which I hadn't really, I , I feel like the narrative

6:04

around it is very different to that. And, and I'm

6:06

really glad that you're exploring how different this really

6:08

is . We can start to change that. And is this kind of what

6:10

we mean like about when you say like attitudes, is this what

6:12

we mean about like positive aging? Because we see a

6:15

lot about this. Like what is positive aging mean? Is

6:17

, is it having this better attitude and taking more responsibility?

6:19

So that question has always fascinated

6:22

me. And we were able to

6:24

work with psychologists to actually

6:28

identify valid questions we

6:30

could act , to try and determine a

6:32

little bit more about this very thing as what is positive

6:35

aging and does it really make any difference.

6:37

We actually embedded in the questions

6:40

, um, questions around your

6:42

attitude to aging . And just to cut

6:44

to the chase on that, it's, you know, do

6:47

you feel your chronological age? Do you perceive

6:49

yourself as being your chronological age? That's

6:51

the number of candles on your birthday cake , or

6:53

do you perceive yourself as being younger? And

6:56

I have , you know , I , I perceive myself

6:58

as being about 20 years younger than

7:00

I actually am . It always

7:02

fascinated me that whole question around positivity.

7:05

Cause very frequently we see people who

7:07

have a very positive attitude and everything

7:10

above them , also more youthful . We

7:12

explored that and bottom line

7:14

, if you have a positive attitude

7:17

and you feel yourself to

7:19

be, you believe yourself to be younger than

7:21

your chronological age, we've shown

7:24

with repeated

7:27

sampling that in fact your aging

7:30

process is slower Wow . Than

7:32

other people who feel their chronological age . But

7:35

you might say that's because the people who feel their

7:37

chronological age of arthritis or other

7:39

diseases or disorders, the way the

7:41

data set is designed, we were actually able

7:43

to adjust for that . So I

7:45

can tell you that independent of

7:49

having diseases or disorders or

7:51

whatever else , your attitude independently

7:55

influences the pace of aging at

7:57

a biological level. Isn't that wonderful?

7:59

Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. A very

8:01

good reason to kind of , you know, all these things we see about being

8:04

grateful and having a gratitude journal, which, you know , sometimes

8:06

I kind of , I'm just like , I'm so busy. Do I have to also

8:08

be thankful for everything all the time ? But I

8:11

guess , well

8:11

It's also , it's also important that

8:14

, uh, at a societal level we're aware

8:16

of this because sometimes we get

8:19

negative vibes and messages,

8:21

say for the , from the media for example. And

8:23

everything is so youth orientated.

8:25

But that has sort

8:28

of a subclinical negative impact

8:31

on older persons approach

8:34

and attitude to aging . It must do

8:36

. If you're constantly being bombarded

8:39

by negative messages, then

8:41

they embed themselves. And it's difficult

8:44

for an individual to break

8:47

through all of that and still be positive.

8:49

So I think it's important that that

8:52

is a , that we're aware of that as a society.

8:55

And look, if it influences

8:57

your biology, it's a cheap

8:59

way of delivering health,

9:02

behavior prevention, you know, prevention

9:05

for diseases through health behaviors.

9:07

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . No , absolutely. And do you think , I mean, I completely

9:09

agree with you about the media and the messaging and the narrative

9:11

that we hear and that we're told. I mean, and

9:14

I know that's sort of like the UK and I'm sure Ireland , it's

9:16

quite a sort of drum beat of negativity. Correct.

9:18

So are there any countries, I mean, did you look in

9:20

your study, are there any countries that are better at this

9:22

than we are in terms of like that narrative and

9:24

how they approach ?

9:25

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think the

9:28

USA is getting a lot better, believe it or not , because

9:31

the proportion of people who are getting older

9:33

is increasing proportionate really

9:35

in society. And they've a lot , their voice is loud,

9:38

but Nordic countries are also very positive.

9:41

Yeah , yeah .

9:42

Northern European

9:42

Countries. I went to a seminar a couple of

9:44

years ago, which I still talk about cause it was so fantastic. It

9:47

was about positive aging. And I kind of went in feeling

9:49

a bit negative about it and I was like, you know, I'm , I'm , I'm

9:51

not feeling so great and I'm , I'm really interested in knowing

9:53

more about it. And there was a lady in in the room

9:55

who basically was like, I can't wait

9:57

to get older. It's fantastic.

10:00

I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. She saw it

10:02

as such a beautiful thing and, and I couldn't quite, she had an

10:04

accent but I couldn't work out. And I said, where are you from? And I

10:06

think she was finished and she basically then

10:08

explained how in her life she was like, look, in my community,

10:11

in my town, all the people, they're

10:13

very integrated with us and you know

10:15

that they go hiking and they live an active lifestyle.

10:18

And she said, you know, that I look at them , they're aspirational

10:20

to us. That is how we see it. Whereas obviously

10:23

in other countries it's very different. You know, older people

10:25

are kind of locked away and you'll see and all

10:27

it's this decline that you go into. And she

10:30

explained it . I was like , wow, this is a

10:32

completely different mindset that I had just obviously

10:34

haven't been exposed to myself.

10:36

I think there's a movement now to change that

10:38

narrative. Yeah . And to repurpose

10:40

it towards positivity. And

10:42

it's really very important , uh,

10:45

that we do that because otherwise

10:47

it makes it difficult for individuals. But

10:49

, you know , uh, because the demography

10:51

is changing so much, I mean , we are living

10:53

, we are actually living

10:56

longer, three, three

10:58

months every five

11:01

years. The average life expectancy

11:03

has doubled over the last two years.

11:05

And next year, 12%

11:08

of the total world population will be

11:11

over 65 . And obviously, you know , quarter of

11:13

the population in Germany is over 65 now

11:15

, over 65, 65 isn't old

11:17

anymore. But I'm just giving you

11:19

some sense of we are living

11:21

longer, average life expectancy is

11:23

increasing. We dunno exactly why.

11:25

There's lots of things put forward . Like new technologies,

11:28

new medicines, less stress,

11:30

believe it or not. Better diets, more awareness

11:33

of what health, how we can manipulate

11:35

our own health, et cetera . But

11:37

it , it does , that doesn't appear to be the whole answer.

11:40

And maybe there are other reasons why we're,

11:43

we , we seem to be living longer. The curve is

11:45

pretty linear in most countries.

11:47

Um , in other words, it doesn't seem to be tailing

11:50

off and seems to be continuing

11:53

to extend . That's life expectancy.

11:55

And of course fertility rates are dropping worldwide.

11:58

So I think it was in 2012 , the number

12:00

of people, fortunately over

12:02

the age of 65 , surpassed

12:06

those under the age of five worldwide.

12:08

So proportionately, there

12:10

are more people increasing

12:12

all of the time over the age of 65 compared

12:15

to younger cohorts. Now there may be issues

12:17

with respect to labor force

12:20

participation down the road in some countries with respect

12:22

to that . But overall it means

12:25

that older persons are getting a louder voice

12:27

simply because of numbers . And I

12:29

think that will change the narrative around ages

12:31

.

12:32

Yeah , no , sounds, sounds like a fantastic step

12:34

in the right direction. I completely agree. And there's

12:36

a section in your book which I really loved , which is all about this

12:38

sort of socializing and how this benefits

12:40

us as humans, which sounds great. Right?

12:43

And obviously human human connection is everything. It's part

12:45

of the reason why I , I do this podcast. Like I

12:47

think with Covid a lot more people realize perhaps we're

12:50

a bit more introverted than we thought we were. So

12:52

how can we kind of embrace this kind of socialize

12:54

and get the best outta it without having to, so , you know

12:56

, if , if you don't necessarily naturally mingle,

12:59

you know, love to go out, love to meet with people, like

13:01

how can we get the best out of this?

13:03

So first of all, we are what's called

13:06

gregarious animals . We need each other and we've

13:08

evolved to need each other . And that's why we've

13:11

evolved in communities and why communities

13:13

is so important. You know, if you think of the

13:15

hunter gatherer model, which we've

13:18

all evolved from, and those

13:20

who went and hunted , if they didn't

13:22

need the company of others and weren't

13:24

gregarious, could have kept the meat

13:27

at it and moved on and left the others waiting

13:30

in the village who were minding the

13:32

youngsters, et cetera , without

13:34

food. But we've evolved to

13:36

need each other and to need each other's

13:39

company, et cetera . And loneliness

13:41

as an emotional state has

13:43

also evolved with that painful

13:45

loneliness actually accelerates

13:48

dementia , for example , painful loneliness

13:51

contributes to a higher

13:54

prevalence of cancer and heart

13:56

disease. So it's bad for us biologically.

13:59

And we've evolved that that is the case.

14:01

So it's incredibly important. Friendship

14:04

is really important and very

14:06

important for the whole process of

14:09

eating . And if you go out with your friends for

14:11

a night , you have a good laugh . Laughter is part of

14:13

all of this. Like laughter is our way of

14:15

socially bonding and you have a good laugh

14:17

at night, you know, you feel really good

14:20

the next day. And that's not a chance

14:22

thing. That's because biologically

14:25

that night of engagement and enjoyment

14:28

has actually influenced your biology . I

14:31

actually think that having a good social network

14:34

and retaining that and retaining

14:36

an interest in life and a purpose in life

14:38

are probably the most important things

14:40

that we can do to age well. And if

14:43

you think about people, you know, in their

14:45

nineties who appear to be in really good

14:49

or shape and appear happy with

14:51

themselves, they have these

14:54

components. You know, they're, they're, they're

14:56

engaged, there's variety in their

14:58

lives, they have social networks,

15:00

et cetera , and they have a positive attitude.

15:03

Just pause and and look at people you

15:05

know, who have lived for a long time. Very

15:08

few of them are are miserable people.

15:10

Yeah, that's such a good point. Uh , I read , um, a

15:12

really fantastic piece in Time Magazine. It was a couple of years

15:15

ago now. It was a front cover story. And then I think so

15:17

, you know , you know how has , as we as personally as I

15:19

get older, I kinda fantasize about moving

15:21

to the country and maybe I'll have a little farm. And

15:24

it actually said that the happiest older people

15:27

are people that live in cities like quite big cities as

15:29

well. You know , you think you wanna escape from all this. It's

15:31

noisy . And it said it's because of the connection. It's because you might get up

15:33

in the morning, go to get your paper, go to go drink , you'll

15:36

connect with people, you'll see people, you can then do

15:38

social activities. Cause they tend to be in a center

15:40

of cities. I'm not saying that they don't happen in the countryside.

15:43

I hate countryside . Which I just thought was

15:45

so interesting because , you know, I think I've been programmed

15:47

to think, okay , you know, I'll recede as I

15:49

get older and I'll move away and it'll be as

15:51

peaceful living on the side of , actually no , this

15:53

isn't good for us. This connection is so important.

15:56

No , it's hugely important. That's a really good point.

15:58

Cause a lot of people make that mistake. They

16:01

retire and they move and you're

16:04

notman in the states is lovely work around

16:07

our social networks and even what you've

16:09

described there , paperman , you

16:12

know, in the local shop that's part of

16:14

your network, you know, we've got our close network where

16:16

our family and friends, et cetera . Then we

16:18

have friends who we might meet on the way

16:20

to the paper shop and stop and have a chat with et

16:23

cetera . You know, so your circles are very

16:25

different. And then you've got the people in

16:27

the shop itself, et cetera , but they all

16:29

matter and they all influence your

16:32

state, your biological state. So

16:34

if you move away to an area where you

16:37

don't know anyone, and this is not uncommon

16:39

when people retire, you have to start

16:41

again. You have to start developing and building those

16:44

relationships again . Some people are very good at that

16:46

. But my word of caution would be don't

16:49

underestimate how important those

16:53

transient social engagements are and

16:55

networks that you've become used to in your immediate

16:57

environment.

16:58

Gosh , that's so interesting, isn't it? There's , um, when I go into

17:00

my office building, there's a couple of security guards

17:02

on the front desk and we always say good morning. And

17:04

I always chat to them whilst I'm waiting for the elevator. And I

17:06

really look forward to seeing them when I, yeah, it's these kind

17:08

of small connections actually. I live for

17:11

as much as obviously, you know, my husband and

17:13

my child and my best, as , best as

17:15

Correct. So the earlier people

17:17

start to develop friendships

17:19

and retain friendships the better . And

17:22

the title of the book is age Proof . And unfortunately

17:25

that in one way attracts an

17:27

older audience . But I really want get the

17:29

message to in their twenties , thirties

17:32

and forties . It's then

17:34

that you have to start shaping

17:36

your future , um, in

17:38

order to have the maximum benefit

17:41

when what inevitably happens happens.

17:45

Interesting. So fascinating. So , um, you mentioned, you

17:48

talked about it very quickly , just earlier. So purpose. Like

17:50

if you have a purpose and a reason for getting up

17:52

in the morning, and I love this stat, like you'll live about

17:54

seven years longer. I mean, incredible.

17:57

So how can we find our purpose? Cause I think purpose

17:59

often sounds so lofty. Like, you know, I'm finding a

18:01

cures cancer, I'm planning to climb a mountain, but how

18:03

can we just find a purpose in our day-to-day that

18:05

gives us something and gives us a reason to sort

18:08

of get up in the morning that will help us live this

18:10

more fulfilled

18:10

Life? So it doesn't

18:12

really matter what your purpose is as

18:15

long as you meaningfully pause

18:17

and identify it as purpose , um, and

18:20

even make a list . So today I'm going to pose

18:22

down the garden , out those

18:25

shelves , go for a long walk, swim

18:27

in the ocean, whatever, but have

18:30

a purpose for the day. It's getting up

18:32

listlessly and just moving through

18:34

the day without having clear focus

18:37

of what you are trying to achieve with the

18:39

day that isn't particularly good for us when

18:42

we're working . It's different because

18:45

you're very clearly orientated towards your

18:47

work, focused on that . And that gives

18:49

you great purpose. And also don't underestimate

18:51

the social engagement associated with one

18:54

of the issues with retirement is that

18:56

suddenly all of that matrix

18:59

is taken from you and not

19:02

infrequently people feel they've lost purpose once

19:04

they give up work . So you have to be prepared for

19:06

that and then to focus on

19:08

, okay , what's my purpose today going be ? What's

19:10

my purpose today gonna be ? It's really

19:13

, there's great evidence to

19:15

show that if you volunteer, if you're part

19:18

of a , of an organization which is helping

19:20

others , that gives you great purpose and

19:23

a really good feel , feel good feeling

19:26

emotionally , which is good at a now

19:30

our work has shown that in fact, if

19:32

you don't start engaging with

19:34

volunteering before retirement,

19:36

you're very unlikely to do it after

19:39

retirement. So it's good to start

19:41

this process early, but

19:44

to know that purpose isn't a just about

19:46

work or what we normally identify with , it

19:48

can be anything as long as you make

19:50

that thing your purpose . And in

19:53

Okinawa and um , Sardinia , which

19:56

are two of the blue zones where proportionately

19:59

people live longer and

20:02

healthier than on mainland

20:05

Japan or mainland Italy , for

20:07

example. In those two circumstances, they

20:10

have special words in their

20:12

language for having a purpose for the day . Wow.

20:15

They recognizing how important,

20:16

It's, gosh, that's beautiful. I love it. So

20:19

we all know that we're gonna be living longer and you

20:21

know, we're thinking, talking about things like purpose and, and

20:23

, and finding a reason. And I'm ing our days . I mean, how

20:26

can we plan and prepare for these sort of next

20:28

decades ? Like if it , if you , if I'm in my thirties or my

20:30

forties, like, is is it worth starting

20:32

to think about it now if I'm like

20:34

, what can I do , plan

20:43

Slow now

20:47

. Everything we've talked about. So

20:49

creating a circle of friends is , is important.

20:52

Engaging is important at all

20:54

ages. Um , having a purpose

20:56

is really important at all ages. It's

20:58

just that when we're younger, they're almost

21:02

automatic within our lifestyles . Not necessarily so

21:04

, but almost . And then as,

21:06

as we get older, maybe by

21:08

not being aware of their import , we're

21:11

inclined to let them sleep . But of course

21:13

the earlier you start the better . And it's not

21:15

just preparation for the future, it's

21:17

about now it's about being healthier now,

21:19

feeling better now preventing illnesses

21:23

and preventing negative mental

21:26

health issues now . Yeah,

21:27

No, very good point. How do you personally

21:30

feel about getting older? I have to ask you .

21:31

Oh, what , the more I read about this

21:33

, the more I realize , oh God,

21:35

I wish I'd known that 20 years ago . <laugh>

21:39

definitely that , definitely that ire

21:42

the work I'm doing . So I hope I never

21:45

stopped doing that . Um , it's

21:47

raised my awareness about the importance of volunteering

21:50

and I've volunteered, I'm on

21:52

different foundation boards, et cetera , to

21:55

raise money for different , um, charities.

21:58

So that's the case . I would be , and

22:01

I'm very informed about the whole process . Am

22:03

I really looking forward to it ? Um

22:06

, I would be tentative about

22:09

the process. Definitely. And

22:11

the thing that worries me most is

22:13

I see our health services

22:16

fragmenting unfortunately, and

22:18

I know that comorbidities , that illness

22:21

has increased with advancing aging . I know how you can

22:23

decelerate that, prevent it , delay

22:26

it , but it is inevitable at the moment.

22:28

And I, I'm concerned

22:30

about access to good healthcare

22:33

when it's needed. And I'm a physician,

22:36

so

22:36

Gosh . Yeah , you're seeing , well you're seeing it and living it

22:39

every day I guess . So you yes , it's

22:41

In Ireland , the proportion of people over

22:44

the age of 80 is going increase fourfold

22:47

is increasing fourfold over the next 20

22:50

years . And I see a big, big issue in terms

22:52

of our healthcare delivery. It's the same in

22:54

the United Kingdom in most of Europe.

22:57

And I'm sure itll be the same as

23:00

populations age in other countries.

23:02

And I wanted to ask you about this . So the UAE

23:04

Dubai have you to Dubai before ? Is

23:06

it this be ? I

23:07

Have indeed , yes , I have, yes. Yeah,

23:09

I liked it very much actually.

23:11

You came from a couple of events, didn't you? I remember

23:13

, um, reading about them. So it's a very young,

23:15

it's a very young country, Dubai, a young city. It's

23:18

actually quite rare to sort of see older, you

23:21

know, elderly people here. So

23:23

how can we sort of find like healthy models

23:25

of what older looks like if you are not necessarily

23:27

seeing it sort of on a day-to-day basis? Do

23:30

we have to look outwards or do we have to motivate ourselves?

23:32

Is there a way of doing that?

23:34

So that's a really good question actually.

23:37

I think it's reasonable to hypothesize

23:41

that it's in predominantly youthful

23:43

societies that you would , would actually encounter

23:46

most ageism and

23:49

negative attitudes towards aging because

23:51

you don't, as you outlined, have

23:54

pure models of aging on

23:56

which to base your assumptions. And

23:59

I think probably awareness and

24:02

as has happened in other countries which

24:05

have higher proportions of older persons,

24:07

it will come with time. But

24:10

it's difficult for those who are aging in those societies.

24:12

And you know, earlier on when we were chatting,

24:14

you made a really good point about women versus

24:17

men and aging. And there's

24:19

no question that , um, particularly

24:22

in that sort of a suc societal structure

24:24

, it's more challenging for women

24:27

because of attitudes and those attitudes

24:30

feed back into an individual self-perceptions

24:33

of how they're aging and people

24:35

in and become less

24:38

engaged because of those

24:40

perceptions and cause of their own perceptions

24:43

of how they're aging . That is

24:45

certainly the case and it's something we

24:47

need to be aware of. I , I think and

24:50

more supportive of women , um,

24:53

aging and peer models are so, so

24:55

important in that context. And

24:59

to see women as

25:01

we do men for virtues

25:03

other than physical attributes,

25:07

that is a huge, huge issue

25:09

in my opinion.

25:10

Yeah, and I think, I mean the , the UAE is

25:12

doing a huge amount in terms of sort of supporting

25:14

women. She Muhammad passed law where now

25:16

, um, every business has to have, you know,

25:18

a woman on the board. Like there's a lot to do to

25:20

sort of push women forward I thinks

25:23

about , yeah , I mean moving away from the sort of appearance based culture.

25:25

Absolutely. And just as a woman yourself,

25:27

I mean, how do you find that look , you know, I'm, I'm

25:30

my time's marching on for me and I'm always

25:32

fi I always feel like there's a bit of a balance. You know , I'm trying to

25:34

live a sort of healthy spiritual connected

25:37

life with meaning, but you know, I still really like to

25:39

put mascara on in the morning. Like how do

25:41

you kind of balance sort of this sort of external with

25:43

the internal and the whole aging process yourself?

25:46

I think it's really important to

25:48

smart <laugh> and your first few

25:50

seconds with somebody determine

25:54

their approach to you . And

25:56

if you're pleasant and smile really

25:59

early on , it makes a huge difference . And I

26:01

think it's , it's circum ma and

26:04

everything . I do use

26:06

makeup . It's not that I don't use makeup, et cetera

26:08

, but I just think that there's

26:10

something deeper than that innate that

26:13

we engage with. And smiling is

26:15

one of those things and that comes back to gregarious

26:18

behaviors and leading people and

26:20

feeling warm towards people and knowing

26:22

that you can have a , an engagement

26:25

with that person. I mean , I

26:27

work in a hospital sometimes it's

26:29

crazy and you have hardly time to brush

26:31

your hair, but it doesn't matter as long as

26:33

your attitude is

26:34

Positive . Well it's so interesting you say that because

26:36

there's a fantastic , um, psychologist called Sean

26:39

Acor . He's a professor of happiness at Harvard.

26:42

Um , anyway , he's been on on Oprah , he's that kinda guy . He

26:44

, he's very prolific . He cites

26:46

a study and it was in a hospital in the States and

26:49

they asked all the doctors to

26:51

smile at people. They said, you've gotta smile like 10

26:53

times a day at patients , people, whoever you see.

26:55

That was all they asked them to do. They didn't change anything. And

26:58

then they surveyed the patients afterwards and said, you

27:00

know, how did you feel about your experience? Everybody

27:03

had a fantastic experience at this hospital. Even

27:05

people that were not necessarily very well that were

27:07

quite unwell, healing rates went up. All

27:09

they did was smile at people. And he cites this study

27:11

as a reason why, you know, you should , he said that him , him and

27:13

his wife, where they drive around where they live, they're smilers

27:16

and waves and , and me and my husband have kind of adopted this.

27:18

My mom , do you know these people ? I'm

27:20

like , no , I'm just smiling away .

27:23

<laugh>

27:23

Times 10 people smile and wave back as well and they don't

27:26

even know you. So this is kinda , it's

27:28

Infectious , but the person who's smiling feels better

27:30

as well.

27:30

Exactly right.

27:32

So the medical staff will felt better as

27:34

well as the patient participants .

27:36

Yeah , exactly .

27:37

So , so smiling makes a difference and it's part of that whole

27:39

social engagement . Um ,

27:41

Yeah , it's so interesting . I find it absolutely

27:43

fascinating. And so I wanted to ask you on this podcast

27:45

is called Good Intentions. It's all about sort

27:47

of how we connect and ground ourselves. I mean,

27:49

how do you stay grounded and connected? You've clearly,

27:51

clearly got this very challenging job and

27:54

you're doing all this research. You , you're very busy

27:56

stretched . How do you sit stay connected to what's

27:59

important to you?

27:59

There's a great research around giving

28:02

and how giving makes the individual who's

28:05

given feel better. That and , and

28:07

, and it pertains to monitoring giving as

28:09

well as any other form of giving. And

28:12

I enjoy very much mentoring young

28:14

doctors, young students, young clinicians,

28:17

young healthcare professionals coming through and

28:19

engaging with those . And my work lifestyle

28:22

in necessitates obviously engaging

28:24

with all age groups. So I , I think that intergenerational

28:28

transfer is very, very important and I really

28:30

love it networks a

28:33

lot from one age group. I often am

28:35

friendly with, with younger people

28:38

who are a lot younger than me . Um

28:40

, and I get so much from them in

28:42

terms of, of social , um,

28:44

awareness as well as people

28:47

who are a decade or more older

28:49

than me . So my friend network outside

28:52

of work is wide in

28:54

terms of age range that's unusual

28:57

but really good and healthy . And

28:59

I suppose that's one of the things over the years is

29:01

I've studied all of this that I aware of and

29:04

I've made a conscious effort to

29:06

have that spread in friends

29:08

from different age cohorts.

29:11

But it isn't common. It's more, much more

29:13

common in southern Europe than

29:15

in the uk.

29:16

Yeah, interesting. Obviously there's

29:18

your book , which is fantastic. Are there any other books that

29:20

you would recommend? Are there any books that sort of really meant something

29:23

to you that you could recommend to us? And it could

29:25

be, it could be about factual, it could be fiction,

29:27

anything at

29:28

All. So of the kinda factual ones

29:30

that I've really enjoyed reading, I love Malcolm

29:32

Gladwell's books . I think he writes really

29:34

well and he , he's able to repurpose

29:37

something that's quite complex psychologically into

29:39

, into something which is easy to understand.

29:42

Matthew , sleep is really important. We haven't touched on sleep,

29:45

but sleep is so important for the,

29:47

for our biology and, and I think

29:50

Matthew Walker , again has unpacked

29:53

different personality subtypes, pros

29:56

and sleep and they're all linked and

29:59

has sleep . So linked to dietary

30:01

intake, et cetera , in a simple way. And

30:03

I've condensed some of the sleep

30:06

research from many different groups in

30:09

the book. But sleep was very, very important . And

30:11

I like the way he , he does that and

30:13

I love Richard Dawkins , the selfish Gene <laugh>

30:15

. I think that is very

30:19

quirky way of looking at our

30:21

genetics and, and how we've

30:22

Evolved. Sounds super. I also loved

30:24

that , um, the sleep book because I have

30:27

struggled with sleep and I just found it . Yeah, God

30:29

, I was literally like, like

30:32

all the way through and uh , making notes and

30:34

yeah . And

30:34

A lot of people do struggle with sleep and the issue

30:37

is so many people after I've given one of these

30:39

lectures or whatever would come up afterwards and say, oh,

30:42

it's all very well to say about sleep. But I worry so

30:44

much about the fact that I don't sleep well

30:46

and my , my retort is , is much

30:48

more important that you don't worry about it . Cause

30:51

worrying about it makes 10 times worse. You know

30:53

, do what you can . Don't worry about

30:55

it beyond that because that's your physiology

30:57

. That's you . Once you've taken on board everything

31:00

else , then that's you .

31:01

Yeah. Self prophecy isn't it , to

31:03

keep worrying about it, I guess. Yeah. <laugh> and

31:06

last question. Why do you think we're here?

31:08

What's our purpose, Anna Earth?

31:10

Ooh , well of course I very

31:12

much believe in evolution, believe

31:15

in , I know that be the case

31:17

. How we've evolved and how

31:19

we've evolved from right through , from

31:22

being a single cell to aquatic

31:24

creatures and now land dwelling

31:28

creatures. Predominantly why

31:30

we are here. I I , my own view

31:32

is that it's chance and

31:35

that there may be other living mammals

31:38

even, but organisms on other

31:40

planets, I mean it's so vast. How,

31:42

how do we know? How can we say and, and

31:44

I think our presence here is, is a chance

31:47

occurrence. It fits very

31:49

much with what we know of molecular biology,

31:51

et cetera . And a lot of it is terribly out hoc

31:53

. I mean there's very often when you go to look

31:56

at why and you go back to the molecular structures

31:58

and basic proteomics and all of the things

32:00

we can get at there isn't actually rhyme

32:03

nor reason to why, why all of

32:05

those mechanisms and systems and

32:07

pathways have evolved et cetera . Which is

32:10

why it's quite complex to learn. Cause

32:12

there's nothing intuitive about a lot of

32:14

it . So that chaotic

32:18

way evolving and makes me

32:21

, it's , it's pure

32:23

chance that we're here and the

32:25

way we've evolved.

32:26

Super interesting. Fascinating. And what

32:28

a great point to end on. Thank you so much for your time.

32:30

I absolutely loved our conversation and I can't wait to

32:32

, um, I'm gonna be at your session fun girling you in the audience

32:34

in February. It's uh , it's not long now , is it ? I'm

32:37

Really forward to that . Yeah , that'll be great . Great. Okay

32:39

. Thank you Kelly . Thank you very much. Thank you so much . Thank

32:41

you.

32:42

Thanks so much for listening to the Good Intentions

32:44

podcast. You can find links

32:46

to issues and to books that we discussed in the

32:49

show notes. And you can look for the podcast on

32:51

Instagram. It's Good Intentions uae

32:53

. Please do make sure you subscribe to

32:55

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32:57

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