0:02

Welcome to good intentions, the

0:04

podcast where we explore the world around us to

0:06

find meaning and intention in what we do. I'm

0:09

Kelly Harvard , and I'm on a mission to spread

0:11

positive stories that will inspire you to live a more

0:13

meaningful and connected life. My

0:18

guest to this episode is S Bates , psychotherapist,

0:21

journalists, and former BBC

0:23

and channel four producer Sasha's husband. The

0:25

actor in playwright, bill Cashmore died unexpectedly

0:28

at the age of 56. When bill died,

0:30

Sasha turned to writing and the resulting book

0:33

called languages of loss is a moving powerful

0:36

and informative narrative account of how grief

0:38

works, how it feels and how it can

0:40

be managed. A searingly honest count

0:42

of losing a loved one and a practical guide

0:44

to help anyone who was grieving in

0:46

this beautiful conversation. Sasha talks to me about

0:49

the death of her husband, bill and how her best selling

0:51

book is a conversation between her therapist self

0:53

and her grieving self in an attempt to

0:55

express and make sense of the inexpressible and

0:58

incomprehensible. We talked about the five

1:00

stages of grief and how they are not necessarily helpful.

1:03

Why we are so bad at talking about death as a society

1:06

and how we can best support someone who has lost a loved

1:08

one. We also talked about guilt, how

1:10

feeling happy doesn't mean you've forgotten a loved one. Yet.

1:12

It is an inevitable part of the grief process. Sasha

1:15

is warm and wise and open about her

1:17

experiences. And she has so much practical

1:19

advice about how to attempt to navigate grief

1:21

and why it will never be the same experience for

1:23

two people. Our conversation is a powerful

1:26

insight into what it is to lose someone you love.

1:28

And it's also filled with hope and healing. Sasha

1:31

says, fear is at the root of our inability

1:33

to talk about death. We are absolutely terrified

1:35

of speaking about it. I really hope that

1:37

by having more conversations like this, we can bring

1:39

grief out of the darkness and into the light

1:41

where it can heal. I hope you enjoy with

1:44

this episode. Thanks so much for joining

1:46

me today. Sat it's super to have you , um , and have

1:48

you on the podcast today.

1:49

Thanks for having me and I

1:50

Wanted to start with them and I was how I met you. I was lucky enough

1:52

to meet you at the Emirates literature festival, which was , um

1:55

, back in February now, I think couple

1:57

of months ago earlier in Dubai, and you

1:59

were here to talk about this incredible book that you've written in , which

2:01

I absolutely loved called languages of loss could

2:04

start by just telling us a little bit more about it

2:06

and why you wrote it.

2:07

Yeah. Um, I started life as

2:10

a , a journalist and a documentary

2:12

filmmaker. So I'd always been a writer, but

2:14

I left when I was sort of approaching 40,

2:16

as many people do change careers to, to

2:19

go and train as a psychotherapist. I

2:21

just wanted to do something different. And

2:24

a few put years into

2:26

that new profession, my husband died very

2:28

unexpectedly. He was very fit and healthy and

2:31

was only 46 . And obviously

2:33

it completely rocked my world and

2:35

changed everything that I thought I knew. And

2:38

I didn't feel at that time ready to

2:40

go back into being a psychotherapist. I was just

2:42

such a mess myself. There was no way I could

2:44

sort of support anyone else, but because

2:47

writing had always been part of my DNA, I

2:49

found myself trying to help myself through

2:52

my grief or somehow process my grief by

2:54

writing about it. So I was just letting all

2:56

the emotions just spill out onto the

2:58

page. Not really consciously knowing

3:00

what I was doing. I was just, it was my way of making sense

3:03

of it and trying to get some of the turmoil from

3:05

inside out. And as I

3:07

did that, I found that after a

3:09

few weeks, as things started to calm

3:11

down slightly, I found that my

3:13

therapist self was almost entering

3:16

the conversation. So I'd be kind of like

3:19

on the page ranting about, you

3:21

know , feeling like overwhelmed or angry

3:24

or what have you. And then I could find myself

3:26

then writing in a different voice saying, oh,

3:28

okay . So this is you're going through anger. And

3:31

this is very natural and think about how it

3:33

feels. And, and I kind of realized that

3:35

I was having this internal jewel conversation

3:37

and slowly my therapist was able

3:39

to sort of guide me through it . And

3:42

it got me thinking about all . If I look at it through this

3:44

theory , through this lens, how does that help

3:47

or hinder and different sort of

3:49

phases of the , the grieving process, different

3:52

theories would like pop up in my head and I'd

3:54

be thinking , oh , actually if I think of it like this , so

3:56

it became a sort of dual narrative of me, the

3:59

griever talking to me, the therapist and

4:01

vice versa because also the therapist, part

4:04

of me was also learning quite a lot because as

4:06

a therapist, I had worked with grieving

4:08

people and I thought I'd, you know, knew the theories.

4:10

And I thought, I knew I how to say the right things

4:13

and support them . And then I realized I

4:15

knew nothing until you've been through

4:18

it. You know, you don't really

4:20

know anything . So the grieving part of me

4:22

was also actually helping the therapist. Part

4:24

of me understand it from the

4:27

bodily emotion experience

4:29

of it. It became about a lot more than theories

4:31

. So it was a mutually kind of supportive

4:34

and interactive experience. And then after a while , I

4:36

just kinda thought maybe other people could benefit from

4:38

this from hearing about my

4:40

experience, both as a , somebody with

4:43

knowledge of the theory and somebody going through

4:45

it . So yeah, I contacted, he

4:48

contacted publisher and before I knew it , the

4:50

book was out there in the world and it sort of came

4:52

about without me ever sort of consciously

4:55

thinking , right , this is what I'm gonna do . It was very organic

4:58

free process .

5:01

It's fascinating. And I think that the kind of dual sort

5:03

of personality jewel voice within the book

5:05

is what is so unique. And I'm sure it's

5:07

resonated with people for many, many reasons, but as I was reading

5:09

it, I found that really powerful to hear sort

5:11

of the very practical of voice and then the very

5:14

sort of heartfelt sort of emotional voice

5:16

sort of balancing one another out because it's

5:18

a really interesting style. So the times had

5:20

a , had a quote about your book, which I absolutely

5:22

loved, which said that , um, this is not a book

5:24

about getting over the death of a loved one. Baes

5:27

knows that it's too big a thing to ask rather she

5:29

is trying to get through it, to rearrange herself around

5:31

it and to cope with as many layers and levels. So,

5:34

I mean like , we've just touched on your book is so full

5:36

of emotion. It's so raw. How does

5:38

it feel having it going out there into the big

5:40

wide world and having people read it and like us

5:42

having these discussions about it?

5:44

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I didn't

5:46

really plan it in advance. Like I say, it just

5:48

sort of happened . I never really got to

5:50

that point of thinking, well, is this a sensible

5:53

thing? And that , so it was out there . I

5:55

knew it. And I guess it's hard to

5:57

judge your own stuff . And it was only when people

5:59

started reading it. Obviously first it was

6:01

re reviewers before it kind of went on on publication

6:04

and people started saying things like raw

6:06

and emotional and brave. And I

6:08

kinda thought , oh my really is it all

6:10

these things? So I didn't really think about the

6:13

impact it would have on people in particular when people started

6:15

saying the word brave, that was a

6:17

bit frightening. Cause I kinda thought , well , when people

6:20

say brave, it sort of , to me makes me think

6:22

that they think I clearly, they wouldn't have done

6:24

it. Cause it was kinda a stupid thing to do. Like I thought

6:26

, oh God really was it brave? And it certainly wasn't

6:28

brave intention. It was more like I say,

6:30

ignorance of the impact that

6:33

other people might, that it might have on,

6:35

on other people. So I suppose it

6:38

was only by hearing other people say

6:40

it that I realized what I'd put out there,

6:42

but at the same time, as people saying these things,

6:44

they were saying, this is so helpful. And

6:47

this really speaks to me and this is helping

6:49

me through my own grief. And it I'm so pleased

6:52

that you're articulating something that I

6:54

maybe couldn't have articulated myself. So

6:57

it's always tempered every time I kind of think, oh

6:59

, I wonder if I should have done that. Is it all a bit cringy?

7:02

I always have the other side in parallel

7:04

telling me that other people are getting something from

7:06

it. And so that's really an amazing thing

7:09

and , and I think it's worth it . And I think you can

7:11

only ask other people to be vulnerable and talk about

7:13

their own grief if you can show

7:16

your vulnerabilities. So yeah, if

7:18

I'd thought about it in advance, I probably wouldn't have done it, but

7:20

I'm now glad that I kinda did it. But you

7:22

know, despite myself through my

7:24

sort of innocence and ignorance, because it's

7:27

shown me that it opens up a conversation

7:30

that might not have been otherwise possible

7:32

or it gives other people the opportunity to

7:34

be more raw and emotional

7:37

about their own stuff.

7:38

And I think that's so interesting. I've never heard anyone say

7:40

that about writing nonfiction. Cause at the lit first

7:43

you hear a lot of the authors will say, you know, just write for

7:45

yourselves the moment you stopped . Think like, well my reader, like who

7:47

are my readers? Who are they ? Who is she? Who is

7:49

he? Then you kind get this block and you should just write what's

7:51

in you. But I've now I'm starting to understand from what you're

7:53

saying, basically apply that to nonfic just, if

7:55

you're going to write, just write whatever is true

7:58

and meaningful to you and in your case it

8:00

was around a specific topic. So I think that's really

8:02

interesting. I haven't heard that sort of talked about before. So

8:04

there's a lot of , um, conflicting opinions about

8:07

the sort of five stages of grief. There's this very

8:09

sort of set old way old,

8:11

I guess it is quite an old, old way of looking at it. I

8:13

mean the whole denial, anger, depression,

8:15

bargaining, and acceptance. And do you write

8:18

a lot about moving away from , from this, which I

8:20

found really interesting. Could you sort of

8:22

speak about us moving away from these universal

8:24

stages?

8:25

Yeah. I find that it's

8:27

very limiting both to

8:29

call it stages and to say that there's

8:31

only five. I just think that completely

8:34

underestimates the , the power of grief

8:36

and the longevity of grief and

8:38

the conflicting ever changing,

8:41

contradictory, tumultuous emotions,

8:43

that and thoughts and behaviors that are part

8:45

of grief. So I just feel it's, it

8:48

barely scratches the surface of what it

8:50

actually feels like. And I think it

8:52

is a , I , I suppose you might say a traditional

8:55

way of thinking about it, the five stages, but

8:57

I also understand why it's become

8:59

ubiquitous and why it's

9:02

so in such common par , because

9:04

I think one of the main characteristics of grief

9:06

is this sense of confusion and the world's

9:09

been turned upside down and you no longer know which ways

9:11

up. And you are desperate for somebody to

9:13

tell you is how you do it. And

9:15

it will be over soon and just through

9:17

your stages and tasks and , and it'll all be

9:19

fine. And so that aspiration you

9:22

need, and it , what I think what the five stages did

9:24

was it kind of gave people that framework.

9:26

It gave them those foothold that they , well , if

9:28

I can just get to the next foothold, then I can see

9:31

progress and I'm getting through it. And I think there's

9:33

a certain amount of value in that. And it, the

9:36

desperation of please just somebody find

9:38

me a map outta here and tell

9:40

me it's gonna be OK . So I think

9:42

it's been great in that sense , um

9:45

, that people have got a framework on which to

9:47

hang some of their emotions, as long as

9:49

you understand that it is one way of looking at

9:51

it and it's limiting and it won't necessarily be

9:53

how you feel and maybe you, some

9:55

of those elements in there, but

9:57

there's a lot more to it than that. And

10:00

I kind of want to just

10:02

open up the vocabulary around it, if

10:04

nothing else. I mean obviously yes, the conversations

10:07

and the , the taboos, but just being able to

10:09

say, well, are they stages? Is that a useful

10:11

word maybe for , for you? They might be

10:13

okay. Fine. Think for them as stages, if you,

10:16

if that's useful or maybe it

10:18

might be helpful to think of them , something vague

10:20

like phases or even flavors

10:23

or shapes, something that has no

10:25

sense of progression, you know, what shape

10:28

is your grief today? What flavor is

10:30

it today? Or as I do in the

10:32

book using what sort of imagery like oceanic

10:34

imagery, are you drowning today ? Are

10:37

you floating? Are you swimming? Are you

10:39

kind of , uh , seeing lands, you

10:42

know, are you in a storm? So I think it's

10:44

about finding whichever visualization

10:47

or words or metaphor

10:49

kind of helps you find your own

10:52

pathway rather than saying there is only

10:54

one pathway.

10:55

Yeah. Interesting. And then if you kind of slip through

10:57

them or backwards or forwards or sideways,

10:59

that , that isn't wrong, it's just accept where you are

11:02

and, and sit with it for them .

11:04

Yeah. It's exactly. It's like weather,

11:06

you know, we get stormy days in

11:09

summer and we get , um , sunny days in

11:11

winter and weather never stops.

11:13

Um, you know, it moves, you know, sometimes you

11:15

get long period of summer follow by long period of

11:18

wind , but sometimes it , especially in England, there's

11:20

always, weather's constantly changing. And

11:23

I think grief is like weather in that sense rather

11:25

than one linear progression.

11:28

Great way of describing it. So, I mean , I

11:30

think I know what you're gonna say is an answer to this, but is

11:32

there any way to prepare for the different stages as you go

11:34

through them then? Or, you know, is that just not something, can you just,

11:36

you just have to basically just address what comes up. So like

11:38

opening the curtains it's raining, it's raining, you

11:40

just deal with the rain. Is that just how you kinda approach it on

11:43

a day to day basis?

11:44

Yes. I think being with where

11:46

you are now, I mean, if, if there are things

11:49

to prepare, it is in a sense of if

11:51

we are gonna stick with this analogy, having your rainbow and

11:53

your umbrella by the door, but also having your,

11:56

your swimsuit at your bikini at the ready as

11:58

well and giving yourself permission.

12:01

I think the best prep of preparation is to

12:03

say, I'm giving myself permission to

12:05

just go with whatever I need

12:08

today. And you kind of plan

12:10

for the worst, but you hope for the

12:12

best and plans are the worst, I think is that the phrase that

12:15

people say so that you are not constantly

12:17

being disappointed if you're not feeling better,

12:20

but at the same time, you're not constantly

12:22

feeling guilty. If you do feel a bit better

12:25

or thinking, oh great, I had a brilliant day

12:27

. That's it? The worst is behind me because

12:29

there may be behind you for the next week or so, but you

12:32

know , there's bound to be another , you're gonna fall

12:34

into another puddle further along.

12:36

So I think the best preparation is to be

12:39

kind to yourself , give yourself permission, understand

12:41

that it will change. Maybe have

12:44

things in place for when the bad days

12:46

hit . So you have those friends that you can say there

12:49

might be days when I just ring you up and can't walk

12:51

and just need to, so , and you know, is it over

12:54

okay to just say on the end of the phone or, you

12:56

know, whatever version of that would work for

12:58

you, you know, have your favorite foods in

13:00

the freezer or the store cupboard so that you

13:02

don't, when you don't feel able to go out, you

13:04

know, you've got those things in place, have

13:06

your playlists for when you need your

13:08

mood to be uplifted or for when you want to

13:11

kind of be with somebody else going through the

13:13

sadness musically. So those

13:15

are the sort you can prepare for, what

13:18

am I gonna do on the good days and what am I gonna do on the bad

13:20

days? But you can't really, I

13:22

would say if there was preparation to be done,

13:25

I it's in the self-compassion

13:27

arena and the allowing arena

13:30

.

13:30

Yeah. It makes complete sense . And you mentioned

13:33

guilt Sasha, which I thought was really interest. I've

13:35

had a , a friend of mine who was , um , bereaved.

13:37

He lost his son and he actually said the

13:39

same thing to me. He said I had a really, I've

13:41

been having some really great days. You know, I've been traveling,

13:43

I've been doing this. And, and then he said, but every

13:46

time I try to enjoy myself, I just feel so guilty.

13:48

I mean, how much does guilt come into it when it , when

13:50

you're grieving someone close to you?

13:52

I think it is massive. I think

13:54

it is one of the almost

13:56

unavoidable things , very from person to

13:59

person . But that one seems pretty universal and

14:01

pretty hard to avoid. And I

14:03

think it's just part of the process. And,

14:06

you know, in a way, how could you not feel guilty that

14:08

you are still here and they're gone. So

14:10

again, understanding that this is

14:12

just part of it and I am gonna feel guilty that

14:15

does it necessarily mean that I

14:17

could have done something differently or that

14:19

I should be feeling this way. Yeah,

14:21

of course. I'm gonna feel guilty. That doesn't mean I'm

14:24

right to feel guilty. It doesn't mean it's valid. It

14:26

just means that I'm really aware

14:29

of the unfairness that I'm here and

14:31

there they're not. And also just knowing, feeling

14:34

happy does not, you've forgotten

14:37

the person. You can be really happy and

14:40

they're still with you . And that's in

14:42

a way , one of those things that you , you

14:44

mentioned that earlier about adapting and

14:46

managing your way around it , which

14:49

is to understand that they're still with

14:51

you, even when you are happy. It's , you're

14:53

not betraying them by being happy. Certainly

14:56

I know with bill and I can't believe there

14:58

isn't a person that isn't you . I know he

15:00

would be furious with me if he thought I

15:02

was SQU a

15:05

life that he would've loved to have had , but be miserable

15:07

all the time . It , it feels like , you

15:09

know, why did he spend all that time?

15:12

Pouring love and self-esteem

15:14

and confidence and happiness into

15:16

me for me to just say, well , well, I'm never, I'm gonna throw

15:19

all those lessons away and just be miserable.

15:21

Sometimes you can't help. I'm not saying we're

15:23

not gonna be miserable. Of course we're gonna be miserable,

15:26

but maybe, you know, for me, I

15:28

kinda think how lovely that a I'm gonna give rid of a

15:31

respite from the misery occasionally. And I'm

15:33

able to enjoy the moment

15:35

, um, and think , well, he's here with me in

15:37

the good moments as well. He's not only here

15:40

with me when I'm sad and crying and missing him.

15:42

He's here with me when I'm saying, look

15:44

at that sunset or how

15:46

wonderful that all your friends are here with me and we

15:49

are celebrating and being joyful together

15:52

. And we know each other because of you. So

15:55

I think the guilt is always gonna be niggling

15:57

away. You don't have to listen to it,

15:59

Try and turn that voice off. Perhaps if you can.

16:01

Yeah. Or down at least if turning

16:03

it off feels impossible. At least you

16:06

try and turn it, turn the volume down and turn the

16:08

volume up on the other voice that says,

16:11

why are we, if not , to try and make the

16:13

best of it as best we can. And

16:15

it's , that's not always gonna be possible. You know, there'll

16:18

be days when people say, oh, we wouldn't want you to be sad.

16:20

And you just wanna , you know, run

16:22

away very quickly direction and

16:24

say, ah , how does that

16:26

help? So there's gonna be days when there's

16:28

nothing anyone can say, or that you can tell yourself

16:31

that is gonna lift what you're feeling , which

16:34

is why it's all the more important to grab those moments.

16:36

When you do feel positive and uplifted

16:39

and, and joyful for all that they gave

16:41

you and all that you had with them . Because,

16:43

you know, especially in the early days, they , those moments

16:45

don't come around that often. So absolutely

16:48

grab them and hang onto them and think fewer

16:50

moment of respite , a little bit of a

16:52

life after , in the moment, you

16:55

know, in the midst of a storm where you're constantly being

16:57

buffeted , this is a moment where you can grab the raft go

17:01

because you know, the storm's gonna come back eventually.

17:03

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Very true. I

17:05

was really touched by the parts in the book where you

17:08

mentioned that you felt Bill's presence and

17:10

especially sort of in the early days, I mean, does that

17:12

still happen and how MIS help those who

17:14

are grieving? I mean , what about if you just never feel

17:17

anyone's presence and you're just kinda like, where , where are they? Could

17:19

you talk to us a bit about that?

17:21

Yeah. And I think this is a tricky one because

17:23

I think it's really hard to

17:25

talk to . So to positively about it,

17:28

if you're talking somebody that hasn't never felt

17:30

those, because that could deep bear grief

17:32

, it's like, well , why haven't I felt ? And

17:35

so you don't want to be too kind

17:37

of , um , oh, it's I , it's so amazing. I

17:39

, I fell to my fellow . So I

17:41

think some people never will. And you

17:44

know, there's nothing wrong with that doesn't mean anything.

17:46

It's just, maybe some people are more receptive

17:49

than others, or I don't know why some

17:51

people don't feel it, but I also know that many,

17:53

many people do. And I

17:55

certainly felt that I saw

17:57

signs and messages. That to

18:00

me felt like they could only be

18:02

from him. They were so much his sense

18:04

of humor and the sort of thing that he would

18:07

say or do or knew

18:10

what made me laugh. And so I , I feel

18:12

very, very strongly that they were,

18:14

you know , everybody that skeptics always say,

18:16

oh, well , you , you know, you see what you're looking for and

18:19

that could be anything. And it's a coincidence and

18:22

fine , of course, it's of course it might be

18:24

. But the fact that I'm looking for them and

18:26

I , to them , whether is my

18:28

mind creating something that I wanna see or

18:30

whether it is a message, I , him , what does it matter

18:33

if in that moment I kinda think,

18:36

oh , that makes me think of bill . And I wanna

18:38

to tell myself, that's a message from him, you

18:40

know, who does that hurt again, find

18:42

those little moments of, of joy and your

18:45

little life or us where you can. However,

18:47

I would say that for those of us that have felt

18:50

that it doesn't feel like a question of belief

18:53

as to whether it is true or not. I

18:55

feel absolutely convinced that their messages

18:57

from him, but of course fine.

18:59

If other people wanna say, they're not, they're fine.

19:02

And you know, maybe they're not. And maybe

19:04

it is my mind trick playing trick to me, but

19:06

I'm sure in myself that I

19:08

feel him around, but yeah,

19:10

they're much fewer now. They're far fewer

19:13

now, I suppose, because I'm less

19:16

in need of them because I have created

19:18

a life that is more used

19:21

to him not being here. Funny

19:23

enough, actually , I'm just watching a

19:25

series on Netflix called surviving

19:27

death. I dunno if you've come across

19:30

it

19:31

Super .

19:32

Yeah. And it's really, I'm finding it really

19:34

interesting again, it's the kinda thing that skeptics

19:38

that can be completely DRIs about,

19:40

I'm not sure I can use that word quickly

19:42

in that sentence, but I think it's five

19:44

or six episodes. I think I'm three or four in, and it's

19:47

about people who have had his experiences

19:49

and what they've experienced in that. It's

19:51

about people who've gone to mediums and felt

19:54

that they've spoken to their loveness . It's about people that

19:56

see signs in butterflies,

19:59

in birds and you know, what , what have you,

20:01

it's very , I find it very compelling, I

20:03

believe in this stuff. So I suppose

20:05

again, I'm have a confirmation bias

20:08

towards thinking, well, I felt these things, so I completely

20:10

believe these other people have felt of these things. If

20:12

you go in thinking what load about rubbish and is

20:14

the people who are just making it up, you are gonna see that in

20:16

it. But I have found that quite an interesting documentary

20:19

actually to see how many other people have

20:22

felt. Some of the things that I

20:24

have felt. And again, how

20:26

convinced they are that it's like, no,

20:29

I know that I know this is my

20:31

daily love .

20:32

That's fascinating. I'll um , I'll look it up and

20:34

I'll put it in the show notes for people, if it's, it could potentially

20:36

be useful. Um , I think, yeah, it's , it's a whole, I

20:39

mean , that's a whole different topic. I'm sure we could spend hours

20:41

talking about, but I do think it's interesting that a

20:43

lot of people have similar experiences.

20:45

There was a book that I read , um , not that long ago and

20:47

obviously the name escapes me now. I think it was by a German

20:50

gentleman . He's , um , a brain surgeon and

20:52

he contracted , um , viral

20:54

meningitis in his brain and went into , uh

20:56

, I'm sure. You know, it, I'm sure you know, it , is

20:59

It proof of

21:01

Yes . That's the one proof of yes ,

21:03

Then Alexander .

21:05

Yes . That's the , yeah, he's a neurosurgeon. And

21:08

he ends up in a coma through this meningitis that

21:10

he gets and he can remember it all and he's completely,

21:12

you know , he has this whole, whole book is based around

21:14

it. But I think the compelling thing with him is that he's

21:17

a man of science and you know , it's

21:19

very open about the fact that, you know, had you asked

21:21

me this before I had the experience? I would've said, no,

21:23

absolutely not. It's all concocted.

21:25

It's the drugs, it's this, it's that having

21:27

been through it. He obviously has this experience

21:30

and this very compelling story around it. I think there's a second book

21:32

as well, which I also read , um , which is where he then

21:34

finds other people who have had the same experience and

21:36

then also talks to them. And it's , there's so

21:38

many similarities and yeah,

21:40

just very, very, very interesting, very

21:43

moving. I mean, whether you believe it or not,

21:45

I think just to hear someone's story who has been through through

21:47

something like that, just fascinating, absolutely

21:50

fascinating. And if it helps you, it

21:52

helps you, right? Why does it matter whether anyone

21:54

else believes it or not, or, you know, even you don't necessarily

21:57

know whether you believe it or not.

21:58

Well, exactly. Even if you are losing yourself,

22:00

who cares, if it makes you feel better and

22:03

it makes you feel connected , what does it matter

22:05

if it, if it's your brain playing tricks from

22:07

you , but some , a lot of the people in the , um , Netflix

22:10

documentary are also medical doctors or

22:13

scientists who say exactly

22:15

that, you know, I spent my life

22:17

being a skeptic and a scientist, and

22:19

I didn't believe anything that I couldn't prove to

22:22

be true. And my experience has absolutely

22:24

changed my mind about that. But

22:26

also I think those of us that have been through

22:29

such transformative experiences

22:31

and who know that your life gets changed by

22:33

them will also know that you , it's

22:35

not just your practical, real life that gets

22:38

changed. You know, you do change your,

22:40

your beliefs and your thoughts and your , your emotions

22:42

quite profoundly, which is why in a way

22:44

I , you know, it doesn't matter who else believes

22:47

what really, I think you do end who a bit that

22:49

were club of people who know

22:51

what it's like as a therapist.

22:53

I thought, I, you know, I'd read all the books, I'd

22:55

read all the theories. I thought I knew how to do,

22:58

how people in front of me telling me about their

23:00

believement were feeling , uh , cause I'd

23:02

read about it. And of course it was utter nonsense.

23:04

And actually even saying that, just going back to

23:06

what we were saying moments ago, even as a therapist,

23:09

you know, I find it hard to kind of

23:11

admit that I feel Bill's presence.

23:14

And I believe in the science he sent , because you

23:16

always think, well, that does that undermine me as a therapist?

23:19

Well , well people think I'm not as good a therapist and

23:21

of course it's rubbish. Cause it doesn't, you know, whatever beliefs

23:23

I have about anything in , in the world do not

23:26

affect how I am as a therapist anyway, but

23:28

you still kind of think there's this

23:30

sense that all people think, you know, oh, I'm a bit

23:33

woo , woo . And therefore, nothing else I can

23:35

ever say, none of my, you know, learning and expertise

23:37

and skills can be listened to because

23:40

I happen to believe these things

23:41

Agreed. So can we just talk about

23:44

how we handle grief as, as a culture, as

23:46

a community? I mean, one of the main things that we

23:48

get wrong, I mean, we've touched on the sort of, you

23:50

know, this understanding that you've got these phases and if

23:52

you can just crack through them, then jolly good . It'll all

23:54

be done and dusted . And there was some research which

23:56

came out a couple of days ago, which we spoke about

23:58

briefly, which is , you know, if you haven't got over it

24:01

within a year, then you, you are actually classified

24:03

as having this terrible thing is happening to

24:05

you and you have a medical label attached to you. So

24:07

what are the main things that we're getting wrong? And, and

24:09

what can we be doing to try and change this?

24:12

Yeah. I mean, exactly that

24:14

I think the notion that you get ever get over it,

24:17

I mean, you change your relationship

24:19

with it and it becomes a different times more

24:21

or less foregrounded and your

24:24

focus, but it's never not

24:26

there. I think we get wrong

24:28

the way we talk about it's just

24:31

in terms of allowing people to

24:33

talk about their, their dead loved

24:35

one . People sort of have this notion that, oh, I don't

24:37

want to upset us . So I won't mention it rather

24:40

than thinking, well, she's upset anyway,

24:42

me mentioning, it's not gonna be the thing

24:44

that, you know, my husband dying is the thing that

24:46

upsets me. You mentioning it's not gonna

24:49

be the thing that it might just give me an outlet. People

24:51

telling you how you

24:53

should be doing it, particularly

24:57

that you should be over it by now message.

24:59

You know , anybody telling anyone, anything I think

25:02

is, is very well .

25:04

Has anyone ever said that to you , Sasha , anyone said

25:06

to you , like you should be over it by now or like , has it

25:09

Not exactly in those words, I

25:11

have heard many people tell me that other people have

25:13

told them that. I mean, luckily, most

25:16

people

25:16

Blow my mind. Yeah.

25:18

I mean, luckily, most people in my world are

25:20

pretty emotionally and

25:22

, and wouldn't, but you can also

25:24

tell that occasionally there's a bit of an

25:27

implicit message in the sort

25:29

of things that they say or want you

25:31

to do or be there's

25:33

also, again, that critical voice of

25:36

yourself that, you know, I suppose my

25:38

worst critic is myself. There is a little

25:40

bit of voice in, in me when, you know,

25:42

four years on, I, I have a bad week

25:44

and I just want to ring a friend and

25:47

talk about how, you know, the loneliness

25:49

or the missing him or the sadness and

25:52

something holds me back. I mean, not always, but

25:54

I can think , oh God, they're gonna think it's

25:56

four years on. Why is she still going on about it?

25:58

And so I maybe monitor myself,

26:00

which of course is nonsense. And my friends wouldn't think

26:02

that, and they would be very willing to listen. But

26:05

even me a therapist is written two

26:07

books about out grief , um , and who know,

26:09

and who was exp and knows you don't 25

26:11

years from now. I'm probably still gonna have days

26:14

like that. Even I find myself

26:16

judging myself and thinking, don't

26:19

bring your friend, don't let them know just how much of a mess

26:21

you can still be at times don't

26:24

bore them. Don't go on too much. Don't

26:27

let them think you can't. So I think possibly,

26:29

you know, we give ourselves that message if

26:32

we're not careful.

26:33

Mm , absolutely. And why do you think we find

26:35

it so hard to talk about death and

26:38

dying and grief? I mean , many, many years

26:40

ago I worked with , um , it was the co-op funeral

26:42

society. I think they're called in the UK. And one

26:45

of the things that we did as an agency was we were trying to get

26:47

people to start planning for their funerals, you know, to

26:49

basically open up the conversation about death

26:51

so that you , it's not something that you're doing in a very, very

26:53

stressful time. You're actually doing it in a

26:55

time when you're, you know, happy and joyful and you can have it how

26:58

you want it, which feels so enlightening, but

27:00

we still seem terribly to struggle

27:03

terribly much with it . But why do you think this is? Is it just cultural?

27:05

Is it, what is it?

27:06

Yeah, I think , um , it's partly cultural,

27:09

definitely, but I think it is really

27:11

terrifying. People are scared

27:13

of it and like any kind

27:15

of anything in the therapy world, you

27:18

know, that the less you talk about something, the more

27:20

frightening it becomes so that this

27:22

irony of , if we were to talk about it or

27:24

we might be less frightened, but we are

27:26

not. So we don't talk about it. And then we become

27:28

more and more frightened. So people

27:31

get confronted by their own mortality. They

27:33

don't wanna think about a time when they're not here

27:35

and they get terrified about will they cope with the

27:37

loss of a loved one? And it's like, don't

27:40

, don't talk about, it's almost like this magical thinking.

27:42

If we talk about it , it it's gonna make it happen

27:45

or they worry that they're gonna be Golish

27:47

or again, this thing of I'm gonna

27:50

upset the other person. And then I

27:52

think, yeah, culturally , uh , well , the

27:54

Brits in particular and many, I

27:56

think many Western nations just

27:58

don't have that habit of doing it.

28:01

So again, the less other people are doing it, the

28:03

less you wanna it , cuz you start to feel

28:05

that you are a bit of a , a freak . Yeah.

28:07

We all infect each other with this notion of

28:10

this is something that we can't talk about. So it

28:12

needs those of us that can talk

28:14

about it. So to be quite loud about

28:16

it, I think to say, no, come on, we do need

28:18

to talk about it. But I think underpinning all of it is fear.

28:21

People are just the frightened of their own mortality

28:23

and they're frightened of the loss of

28:25

their loved ones cuz they're , they're frightened

28:27

of not coping with, with their own feelings of grief.

28:30

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think fear is the key word

28:32

there . Isn't it it's just so it's so

28:34

big. You can't, you , you just think

28:36

that even by thinking about it, it's just too overwhelming

28:39

for us, for us as , as a species . I

28:41

think so obviously you wrote two fantastic

28:43

books and that was one thing it helped you get

28:45

through the sort of grieving process or

28:47

helped you a lot as you were going through your journey. I mean, outside

28:50

of that , outside counseling, outside support

28:52

groups, are there any other activities that you

28:54

suggest that can help us sort of process grief? Um

28:57

, or I mean, does it depend obviously it depends on who you are

28:59

, but is there anything in particular that,

29:01

that people should try and can try

29:03

to help them ?

29:04

Well, it , my second, a grief

29:06

companion is much more a sort

29:08

of practical guidebook or manual

29:11

as to things that might or

29:13

might not help because you know, I always have to

29:15

caveat everything with saying, you know, you've gotta find

29:17

the thing that works for you or

29:19

that helps you. And that will also change, you

29:21

know, from day to day and year to

29:24

year . So there's no one size fits. So

29:26

I suppose the first thing is find what

29:29

is helpful for you? The book we've

29:31

companion is divided into, well , it's four , it's

29:33

four sections, the it's mind's body

29:35

spirit. And then the every day , obviously the

29:38

every day is more the practicalities of probate

29:40

and dealing with anniversaries and all

29:43

sorts of everyday practicalities, but

29:45

the mind body spirit thing it's I think

29:47

we forget so often that we

29:49

do exist in these three different realms of

29:51

mind, body and spirit. And we try

29:53

to think our way through everything. We, all

29:55

of us think that we are just a mind that sort

29:58

of drags this sort of inconvenient body

30:00

around with this so that we think that , um

30:02

, or if I just think what I can do

30:04

and I can keep busy and I can read enough

30:06

about it or talk enough about it or understand

30:09

it enough, we think that's kind of

30:11

done dusted and there's absolutely a place

30:13

for that. I mean, that's why there is a section called mine

30:15

because that can be really helpful. Like

30:17

I say , my therapist self,

30:20

my more self coming in to help

30:22

the emotionally overwhelmed, grieving

30:25

self in the first bullet languages of loss was

30:28

really helpful. I needed her to

30:31

kind of say, now let's just think about this

30:33

for a while . So there's definitely a place for

30:35

using your cognition and your intellectual

30:38

abilities and your mind, but

30:40

the body part is also, you know,

30:42

really important. It's listening to your

30:45

body, understanding that a grief is very

30:47

embodied and therefore you

30:49

need to take your body into account. And whether that

30:51

is doing less and resting more and understanding

30:53

that all this will take its emotional toll

30:56

and you need to, you may well

30:58

be feeling things somatically, you may be

31:00

feeling tired or , or achy or , or

31:03

having stomach aches or headaches or

31:06

orations and understanding that that's part of it and taking

31:08

care of yourself, but also understanding the

31:10

world that exercise how useful

31:13

movement and that doesn't have to mean going for

31:15

a run. And quite often, that's not what you wanna do,

31:17

but you know, just movement in terms of going

31:20

for a walk or just little dancing

31:23

around your worm , or just understanding

31:26

that there are things that you can do using your body

31:28

to change your state. And

31:31

in particular, understanding your breathing patterns,

31:33

breathing is massively important

31:36

in helping one self-regulate cause

31:38

if you can manage your own nervous system,

31:41

whether that's because you are to AED

31:44

and stressy and anxious or under

31:46

aroused and gone into the more depressed, helpless

31:49

collapsed states , changing your

31:51

breathing can help shift

31:53

that nervous system mode, which

31:55

in turn will have an effect on your emotions, which in

31:57

turn will have an effect on your mind and your thoughts.

32:00

So all these things, even though divided the book up

32:02

, they are completely interlinked.

32:05

So yes, being aware of

32:07

your bodily state, finding what works for

32:09

you in terms of movement and rest and

32:11

that balance using your friends , social connections,

32:15

not being alone with it for too long, alternatively

32:17

knowing when you need to be alone and that the

32:20

public fronting part of you need

32:22

to rest and you need to just be the

32:25

part of the book. I mean, it could be religion for

32:27

some people, but it's also about things like

32:30

being in nature and finding

32:33

the awe in things and

32:35

being with your pets or meditating

32:38

is another huge thing, which again, in grief, it

32:40

can be quite hard and meditation doesn't have to

32:42

be just sitting still , um , and emptying

32:44

your mind, which is not what meditation is anyway.

32:46

But a lot of people think that's what it is . It can

32:48

be just being more mindful in

32:51

your everyday life. Like I say, smelling

32:54

the flowers and going for , uh , a

32:56

cold water swim. I mean, there's things that have been with

32:58

. So , so things like cold war , swimming, gardening,

33:01

forest bathing, being with pets,

33:03

all of these things that help your nervous system

33:06

kind of calm down really, or help you

33:08

connect to others , uh , having a laugh,

33:11

you know, making sure you get out and you

33:14

smile and you, you do things that

33:16

distract you, distraction and of

33:19

denial and avoidance are not bad.

33:22

Of course you're not gonna be just trapped. You don't

33:24

wanna be trapped in denial and avoidance,

33:27

but , um , it can be really helpful to

33:29

just say, do you know what I don't, I can, for a moment,

33:31

I can imagine that I'm not a

33:34

grieving person and I can just go out and have a good time

33:36

and you kind of need to give yourself those breaks

33:38

as well. So yeah, there's an

33:40

awful lot of things that have been proven to

33:43

work, not work. I mean, again, you have

33:45

to be so careful with language proven to be helpful

33:48

to some people at sometimes nothing.

33:51

There's no magic bullet journaling,

33:53

you know, getting your creativity in

33:55

general, whether that's writing or

33:58

poetry or music or art or

34:00

crafts or whatever creativity means

34:02

to you, that is, that can

34:05

be really helpful in just promoting

34:07

again, it's getting yourself in that zone where

34:09

it's not just all cognitive thinking

34:12

or being completely overwhelmed by

34:14

the emotions, but being in that sort of zone,

34:17

you know, athletes talk about musicians, talk about, or

34:19

artists talk about you

34:21

. Don't , you know, a lot of people go get in that

34:23

zone by doing a jigsaw puzzle or

34:26

knitting. You know, it's not like we all have to go

34:28

out and be amazing creators. Some people

34:30

get it by gardening and or tending

34:32

their flowers or doing flower arranging. It doesn't

34:34

have to creative doesn't mean, you

34:37

know, you're gonna be the next amazing, you

34:39

know , musician or artist . It can be doing the

34:42

thing that for a few moments completely

34:45

absorbs you in what you are doing to

34:47

the point that your , again, all comes

34:50

back. Most things come back to the nervous system

34:52

levels of arousal, really that

34:54

allows your nervous , just to reset, bring

34:56

yourself back down to , uh , a

34:59

place of balance and harmony way

35:01

. You're not constantly being flung into

35:04

a stress response of either, you know, fight

35:06

or flight and anxiety or freeze

35:08

and collapse and helplessness.

35:10

Mm , no , they all sound great. And you

35:12

know, we've talked about sort of, we're all terrified of

35:15

saying and doing the wrong thing and you

35:17

know, we're all terribly, it's just terribly hard for us

35:19

to talk about death and loss. Like what can we do if

35:21

someone close to us as a loss,

35:23

what can we do to help? How can we speak to them about

35:26

it? Um , should we speak to them about it? What,

35:28

from your experience is the best way for us to approach

35:30

them ?

35:31

I think let them know that you are there for

35:33

them in whatever form that takes

35:36

really. So, you know, I'm

35:38

here with you. I'm gonna be here. Whether that

35:40

means you want to me to

35:42

arrange things and take you out dancing

35:44

or to help you forget, or whether it

35:46

means you want me to sit on the end of the phone and just listen to

35:49

you breath as you've fall asleep. So

35:52

just having people know that

35:54

you are available in whatever form that

35:57

takes maybe gently suggesting

35:59

things, never telling them what to do,

36:02

but also not handing it over to them saying

36:04

, you , you tell me what to do. So, you know, oh,

36:06

I'm thinking about taking off

36:08

for what would you like to come? Or I'm, I'm thinking

36:10

about bringing you some food. Would that be helpful?

36:13

So offering suggestions

36:16

and being about, you know, some days

36:18

they might say, I don't wanna talk to you

36:20

or yes, that is helpful. Or know

36:22

what a stupid suggestion. So I think it's about

36:25

being okay with being wrong

36:27

as well. Cause you are gonna get it wrong because

36:30

part of grief is massive mood. Especially

36:32

in the early days , massive mood swings where,

36:34

what somebody might have said they wanted one

36:36

day might change the

36:39

next day. And it's impossible not to get

36:41

it wrong because nobody really knows what they want.

36:43

So they might have said, I just can't talk about

36:45

it. Don't ever bring its name up on one day. And

36:47

the next day it's like, why are you saying his name? He

36:50

hasn't gone his things . So

36:52

there's a lot of unpredictability. So know

36:54

the response you get is not about you so fine

36:56

. Okay . Today , we're not about it today.

36:59

We are talking about it. So being led by

37:02

them really, I think also just

37:04

letting them know whether kind of explicitly

37:06

or implicitly it's okay for

37:08

you to talk about that person or

37:11

your feelings whenever

37:13

and for how long and for

37:16

as long after a , as you need. And

37:19

for me, I love it. When people bring

37:21

Bill's name up, I try to bring Bill's name

37:23

up very early on in the conversation. So people know

37:25

that it's okay . I love it. When people

37:27

send me little messages saying, well

37:30

, not so much now, but in the early days, they're just check

37:32

in and say , just thinking of you. But nowadays

37:34

it's more along the lines of, oh I

37:37

so and so , so and so today, and I

37:39

was reminded of being here with bill, or I

37:41

just had a sudden thought of bill or I found something

37:43

of his or so people were telling

37:46

me that he's still in their world as well,

37:48

that they still remember him. I like it. Other

37:50

people, maybe won't like you and

37:53

endlessly bringing their name up. So again, you just it's

37:55

really hard, which is why I say

37:57

probably the best support you can be is to be okay

38:00

with getting it wrong and just say, look, I

38:02

am here for you. I am going to try

38:04

and follow as much as I can. Your leads

38:06

as to what you want. Sometimes that

38:08

might land badly. And

38:11

I'm sorry, but just tell me if

38:13

it lands badly.

38:14

I love that you said that you like people mentioning

38:16

bill as well. Cause I heard this from another friend who

38:18

was like, yeah, no, no , please tell me what . And you remember them

38:20

because it's like this lovely gift that

38:22

I get. Cause I , I don't have that memory. You've got a different

38:25

memory. So, or, you know, someone was sharing

38:27

photos that she had never seen before of

38:29

her and her husband. And I just, yeah,

38:31

I would never have known that. I would've thought I was maybe better . I'll

38:34

wait to see if she says it first. And if she says it

38:36

first, then I'll talk. I thought that was a really nice cue

38:38

that you give to people. Not that it's the

38:40

pressure should be on you to give the cues, obviously it's us

38:43

to , to offer and to help. Yeah. It's so

38:45

interesting that people actually do want to talk. They do

38:47

want to have that person, remember they do want to have them

38:49

sort of still part of the conversation. Like don't just

38:51

close that door and pretend they never happened . Actually

38:54

share other memories of them. If, and when you are

38:56

able to,

38:57

Again , you can't really generalize cuz other people, there

38:59

will be people that don't feel this, but a lot

39:02

of people. And I certainly, you know, he's

39:04

never not with me. I'm never not

39:06

remembering and thinking about him. So to know that

39:08

other people are, I find that. So

39:11

moving. So I love it. When people send me

39:13

photos, they found all or memories

39:15

or what have you, cause it's not like I've

39:17

forgotten him. You know, I might not talk about him all

39:20

the time because I don't wanna bore other people. And

39:22

haven't think that's my only topic of conversation, but in

39:25

the part of my brain, that it's the only topic

39:27

of conversation still. Now I

39:29

suppress it , um , in company . So

39:32

people that give me the opening to

39:34

say, yeah, let's have this conversation because normally

39:36

I just have it with myself. For me, that's a blessing.

39:38

But again, there may be some people out there

39:40

for whom that isn't great and ask

39:42

them, is it okay for me to talk about

39:45

him or her or them or

39:46

No , definitely. So life is obviously,

39:49

I mean busy there's , we've all got a lot going on. It's

39:51

stressful. We may, you know, be going through huge

39:53

trauma at the same time. And this podcast is really,

39:56

and sort of help people find a bit of meaning some

39:58

intentions that we can set for ourselves. I

40:00

mean , you've touched on some of the practical tips about grief

40:03

and I just wondered if you had anything that you could share just

40:05

about how we can try and all keep ourselves at optimum level,

40:08

encourage some positive energy, especially

40:10

when you know, we , we are without doubt gonna

40:12

face traumas and challenges along the road. What

40:14

can you recommend? I know you do yoga,

40:17

Sasha , which seems to be

40:18

Yes, I do. And yeah

40:20

, in fact, I've got a third book. This is

40:22

just little postcard, cause it's not out yet. It's called yoga,

40:25

saved my life. It's coming out on June

40:27

the ninth in which I talk about

40:30

the parallels between yoga and psychotherapy

40:32

and how they're both actually doing the

40:34

same thing . Just the via different mediums

40:36

. Really .

40:37

Wow. That sounds fantastic. How interesting.

40:40

Yeah . And if you look back at a philosophies,

40:43

they're basically saying what modern day Western psych

40:45

therapy is saying now, but just

40:48

using slightly different vocab and coming it through

40:51

slightly different channels . Yeah

40:53

. And there a lot so S

40:56

of yoga , but all also the

40:58

elements of yoga and I've sort of touched on

41:00

them already that that are embedded within

41:02

the yoga philosophy, but you can take parts

41:05

that better breathing and

41:08

mindfulness. And the , one of

41:10

the really strong principles of yoga is something

41:12

called hemp , which is do no harm. And

41:14

that involves not just not nonviolence

41:16

to others, but also to . So

41:18

if I was to sort of boil it all down

41:21

into one thing, I would say compassion,

41:23

which absolutely has to include self compassion,

41:27

kindness, and self awareness,

41:30

which enables you to keep yourselves

41:32

at a , a level of sort

41:35

of resonance. Really again, it come all comes back to

41:37

so much, so much in neuroscience is

41:39

again, proving what yogis have known for years about

41:41

the absolute centrality of the nervous system

41:44

and having the flexibility. We're all gonna fly

41:47

off the handle or dropped down to helplessness scheduling

41:49

, but having that flexibility to know

41:51

when you've to state of calm and

41:54

be able to bring yourself back to it

41:56

and you can do that via internal self

41:58

awareness, breathing meditation movement,

42:01

knowing pets, knowing what kind

42:03

of works for you, but also it's

42:06

about social connection. Knowing the people

42:08

that I'm nurturing to you, and

42:10

the more you can sort of the irony counterintuitive

42:13

is that the kinder you can be to

42:15

yourself, the kinder you will be to

42:17

others. Again, there's a whole load of research that

42:19

says that self compassion, quite

42:22

the opposite of being this sort of selfish thing

42:24

that we all think it is , is actually

42:26

a public service . Because if we can learn self

42:29

compassion , we build our ability to

42:31

be compassionate to others . Also being

42:33

aware of your own care , taking proclivities

42:36

that if you kind of the sort of person at the founding . So

42:38

I must always look after others. Yes, of course

42:40

we must. And that is a huge part of it. But

42:42

actually you do that best by

42:44

looking after your yourself. So

42:46

I would say connection and awareness of

42:49

yourself and of those around you.

42:51

And if you can keep yourself calm

42:54

and regulated and aware

42:56

that will emanate out

42:59

to others as well. And you will be able

43:01

to sort of healthily infect

43:03

those around you with a state of

43:05

, um, I keep saying calm and I

43:07

, I feel it's such a sort of like bland word

43:10

, but a , a state of regulation

43:12

where we're all just aware each

43:14

other and be kind to each other in mutually

43:17

beneficial ways. I think.

43:19

Yeah . Some great tips there . I love those. Thank you. And congratulations

43:22

on the book. That's gonna be very exciting. When's

43:24

that June? Did you say

43:25

The ninth ? It will come out . Yes.

43:27

And speaking of books, I mean , apart from your marvelous

43:29

books, obviously I have mine here. I actually have to say

43:31

thank you to you because I bought many copies of this and

43:33

of the handbook as well, and I've been giving them a gift

43:36

to people. And so, yeah, they've been super helpful.

43:38

Thank you so much for those . Do you have any other books

43:40

that have meant a lot to you in your life that you return

43:42

to that have , um , that you could recommend to other people?

43:45

Yeah. Well, I mean, I've read a lot of textbooks

43:47

obviously, but I suppose even more

43:49

than that, cause they can be a little bit

43:51

dense sometimes, which again is partly

43:54

why I wrote the book to try and kind of say what they

43:56

mean by this . If we put it in yoga , in therapeutic

43:58

Western terms , a lot of Buddhist

44:01

books growing up, I read a

44:03

lot about Buddhism and that really spoke

44:05

to me. So people like the Dai Lama and the

44:07

Vietnamese Mount ti horn , they have

44:09

been massively influential on

44:12

me. And I think more since

44:14

I , I became a Quaker of about 10 years

44:17

or so ago. I mean, they're not, they're

44:19

very kind of Buddhist adjacent for Quakers.

44:21

There's a lot of similarities. And so

44:23

I suppose nowadays alongside the sort of

44:25

the Buddhist texts, the Buddhist teachers

44:27

that I've just mentioned, I would read the quake of

44:29

faith and practice, which is, oh , you know, our

44:31

book of kind of suggestions and

44:34

uh , wisdom down the ages of how

44:36

to best take care. Again, it all comes back

44:38

to the things I'm drawn to with those that say,

44:41

take care of yourself and take care of others

44:43

and put kindness and awareness at the

44:45

forefront. Yeah. Any of the Del Lama books

44:48

also, I mean actually Nelson Mandela,

44:50

obviously his autobiography, I think it's

44:52

called long walk to feed , but also he wrote a book with

44:54

his daughter called I

44:56

think it's just called the book of forgiveness. And

44:59

again, it's similar messages in

45:01

learning to forgive. And you, you know, you always think someone

45:03

like Nelson Mandela who was prisoned by

45:05

people for what was it, 25 years, if

45:08

he can preach forgiveness

45:11

thinking about the other person, then you know,

45:13

what exclusive the rest of us got for not

45:15

doing that really. Yeah. Those all

45:17

quite heavy books. But I suppose if we're thinking about the

45:19

ones that have been influential, otherwise

45:21

I could go on for hours . I read a lot. So I could go

45:23

on for hours and hours and hours about other

45:25

books . But I guess as a collective, those sort

45:28

books were people talk about their own

45:30

experience of , of suffering and

45:32

what they've learned from it and how they've come

45:35

through it. And again, I, okay

45:37

. We always get tripped up with language coming through

45:39

in the sense of, we are all continually going through

45:42

stuff , not coming through to get to a certain point, but

45:44

the journey through that is ongoing.

45:47

We are all works in progress. And

45:49

I think understanding that and having compassion for ourselves

45:51

that we're all works in progress and we're all gonna

45:53

endlessly struggle, but

45:56

bringing yourself back to a , a state of equanimity.

45:59

Yeah , absolutely. Yeah . They sound fantastic. You

46:01

so much for sharing. I'm sure. Um , people are gonna enjoy

46:03

them . I'll I'll pick some out of the ones that you mentioned

46:06

and final question, Sasha , do you sort

46:08

of , after everything that you've been through, I'm sure,

46:11

you know, a lot of trauma could make you , you question things

46:13

that , you know, question big questions, you know, why are

46:15

we here? Do you have a thought about why

46:17

we're here and what, what are purposes on this earth?

46:20

Oh , it's such a hard one, but I think it's

46:23

probably what I've been saying all along. It's about being

46:26

here for yourself and being here for others . It's

46:28

about trying to spread your own

46:30

knowledge to others and of

46:33

being able to absorb the knowledge of

46:35

others and taking that on board . I think it's

46:37

about learning to be kinder to

46:40

yourself and to others and also to

46:42

be kinder to the, the world and

46:44

the planet and species that

46:47

are not our own. And to understand that we

46:49

are all connected and we are part of this,

46:51

you know, huge environment of

46:53

trees and fungi and animals

46:56

and that we are not separate from them . And

46:58

I think it's about grappling our

47:00

way towards understanding that

47:02

connectedness, you know, we think we're

47:04

like, I can't remember who said this originally

47:07

and I'm paraphrasing, but you know, we think we

47:09

are these little islands, but underneath

47:11

there's a , there's a land mass that we're all connected to

47:14

just like, you know, trees all look

47:16

separate. And then we now know that they're all connected

47:18

by root systems below the grant . So it's

47:20

just understanding that connection, I think

47:23

, um, and doing whatever we can to

47:25

promote that notion and to feel into

47:28

that notion. So again, it's not just a cognitive

47:30

thing, it's an embodied feelings

47:32

of feeling of connection to others and doing what

47:34

we can to enhance that and to help each

47:37

other.

47:37

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And what a lovely point to

47:39

end on , um , thank you so much, SA

47:41

I loved our conversation and thank you for being so open and

47:44

so honest. And also, so it's a very practical

47:46

as well, lots of practical advice, which I'm sure will help.

47:49

So thank you very much.

47:51

Thank you.

47:52

Thanks so much for listening to the good intentions

47:54

podcast. You can find links

47:56

to issues and to books that we discussed in the

47:59

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48:01

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48:04

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48:06

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48:13

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