0:02

Welcome to good intentions, the

0:04

podcast where we explore the world around us to

0:06

find meaning and intention in what we do. I'm

0:09

Kelly Harvard , and I'm on a mission to spread

0:11

positive stories that will inspire you to live a more

0:13

meaningful and connected life. Louise

0:18

hol fell in love with Dubai. When she moved here in 2000,

0:21

originally from the UK, you probably

0:24

know her best as editor of fashion magazines,

0:26

gratia, middle east, and Harper's bizarre Arabia.

0:29

Most recently, Louise has made a career switch

0:31

to indoor cycling instructor, and she

0:33

can be found in leading legendary. Most

0:35

recently, Louise has made a career switch to indoor cycling

0:38

instructor, and she can be found leading

0:40

legendary and much sought after classes at

0:42

crank her impossibly glamorous

0:44

life. Always fascinated me and I couldn't

0:46

wait to talk to her about her experiences in the world of

0:48

publishing, how she balances raising three

0:51

children with a career and how she manages to

0:53

stay grounded, especially when she was surrounded

0:55

by the glitz and the celebrity of the magazine world.

0:57

Louise is warm, candid and down

1:00

to earth. And I loved her take on life and making

1:03

big career changes and bold choices , whatever

1:05

age you are and how to find connections in

1:07

community last but not least. I

1:09

loved our conversations around wellness and taking

1:11

responsibility for our own health. Louise

1:14

says it's humbling, terrifying,

1:16

and life affirming to start from scratch at the bottom

1:18

to go from being the most experienced to the least the

1:21

power of learning is Tru formidable. I

1:24

learned so much from my conversation with Louise, and

1:26

I know you will too. Please do enjoy it. Thanks

1:30

so much for joining me today , Louise. Really happy

1:32

to have you on, I think you're my first conversation

1:34

of the new year in 2022 . So that's

1:36

really

1:36

Exciting. I know . Thanks Kelly . Oh ,

1:38

Super . So I wanted to start at the very beginning. I

1:40

believe you've lived in the UAE for now . I think it's

1:42

16 years wanted to write almost 20 and

1:45

that kind of PR way of ramping it up. But I mean , you've

1:47

lived in the UAE for a long time. What brought you

1:49

here? What , what's your story?

1:51

I think it was that

1:53

I came and I actually came to work for

1:56

Emirate women magazine. So I'd

1:58

been a journalist in the UK for maybe

2:00

five years working for business

2:03

to business , fashion title , which

2:05

was amazing. And it was an incredible learning

2:08

experience. And in

2:10

the way that London journalism is you get thrown

2:13

straight in my contacts were

2:15

sort of Philip Green and you know, these

2:17

Tysons of industry in the retail, in the

2:19

fashion retail world. And once you've been sworn

2:22

up by Philip Green every day for five

2:24

years, you can face the world, right

2:26

? There is nothing that is gonna intimidate you

2:28

anymore. And it was a great kind of trial

2:30

by fire into proper journalism.

2:33

So I love that, but it was also when you're in

2:35

London, you're not going anywhere in those roles.

2:38

It's very people don't leave . It's very

2:40

hard to move because I'd gone into business journalism.

2:42

It was very hard to make the switch into consumer. And

2:45

while the business is a fantastic training

2:47

ground and actually it's so much harder

2:50

and requires so much more skill

2:52

and it really gives you a great grounding in

2:55

journalism. I really wanted , I'm

2:57

not gonna lie . I wanted the fluffy side of the

2:59

fashion and the fun. So an

3:01

opportunity rose in Dubai, a

3:04

previous colleague of mine had already had come

3:06

to Dubai to work for one of

3:08

the marketing titles. And I kind

3:10

of watched him and see how he

3:12

thrived and had this amazing life and

3:15

great opportunities professionally. So

3:17

that had kind of put it onto my race . And

3:19

then when the Emirates women opportunity came

3:21

up, I did all the tests and things and

3:23

, and kinda got off of the job and came out for

3:25

That. Brilliant. So , and when you came, you were foot

3:27

loose and fancy free . You were Sawm family

3:30

at that point or were you no,

3:31

I was single like 20 mid

3:33

to late twenties , somewhere around there, such

3:36

A Dubai story, isn't it . And we , we come with like a

3:38

suitcase and the couple of bikinis, and then, you

3:40

know, you , you fast forward and you've got dogs and cats

3:42

and children and all sorts coming out of your ears.

3:45

<laugh> no , its

3:45

A whole , you know , living in bird , Dubai and golden

3:48

Sams and oh did you? Yeah

3:50

. You know, there was be man

3:52

and WY that, that was it. I

3:54

mean, I remember more of the Emirates opening, so clearly

3:56

forget that you Dubai more . I remember all

3:59

of the E and being like , wow , who's

4:02

gonna come to this giant place and now

4:04

you gonna Friday, you can't park

4:05

<laugh> yeah, I remember um, the

4:08

whole golden Sams thing we drove through, we were going

4:10

to , um , bird Dubai the weekend. We love bird Dubai and

4:13

I think there's golden Sams 15 or something

4:15

now . And we were like, what ? There only used to be what ? And now

4:17

they've built so many more golden sands. It's like, it's

4:19

incredible.

4:20

It might been , I'm not sure I was in a

4:22

high number .

4:23

Amazing , amazing .

4:24

And then , you know , you know what it's like, it's you just

4:26

send me you a student again, but

4:29

you got a bit of cash and you know, it's that , that

4:31

lifestyle is so much fun in

4:33

your twenties. At that time it was crazy

4:36

. And Tim

4:39

on his roller DJ, it

4:41

was like going back to uni, but

4:44

this time having a bit of money spent, <laugh> not

4:46

a lot, but

4:47

Shout out to Tim on his roller skates. I believe he

4:49

still does roller skate . Occasionally I uh , I

4:52

see him on Instagram roller. Not

4:54

sure about the DJ. Yeah. Fun times. I , when

4:56

I see people coming now in their twenties, I feel a

4:58

little bit nostalgic, but I feel super excited for

5:00

people. They come now still. I mean, Dubai's very different

5:02

now and in some ways I think, oh, it's a shame. You didn't see it

5:05

as it was to see the journey, but obviously it's still got,

5:07

you know, it's still got a great journey that it's on, but

5:09

mainly I just feel, yeah, I feel super happy for

5:11

people when they're coming. Cause I think you've got this whole experience

5:13

now in this incredible place. Some

5:16

sometimes I'd like to go back and do it again, but um , you know

5:18

, obviously happy with how I am now . Um , and

5:20

you've stayed. I mean you've stayed long time. You're here

5:22

a little bit longer than me and we've both stayed in this

5:24

incredible place. What is it about the UAE that

5:26

you love? What made you stay? What makes it such

5:28

a special place to be for you? Obviously

5:30

There were lots of career progressions and

5:33

the journey kind of kept me

5:35

here, I suppose, in terms of professional

5:37

opportunities and then personal

5:39

, I met my husband here . I met him in and

5:43

this is a very Dubai story. I met him

5:45

at the Athlon hot 100 . <laugh> brilliant,

5:48

Which is

5:49

About as Dubai as it gets. I think we

5:52

had kinda mutual friends in common . One of his friends

5:54

was in the Athlon hot hundred . He was a triathlete.

5:57

I was there for work. Cause I was at this stage had

5:59

moved to ICP and was working for GRA . So

6:02

we were introduced and you know, one thing led

6:04

to another amazing. Yeah. So

6:07

it's just that kind of , there's never been a good

6:09

reason to go back and to

6:11

be honest now more than ever there, isn't, I'm

6:14

very aware of what that would

6:16

mean for our kids, for our lifestyle,

6:18

for probably our personal happiness.

6:20

To be honest with you, if it comes down to it , I think

6:22

we're really happy and content here. And

6:25

while there is that draw of the UK and

6:27

if you go back in the summer, we haven't been for a few years. Cause

6:30

of COVID you have an incredible time

6:32

in July when you're not working and the sun's out

6:34

and your friends are around . I'm very , it's

6:37

like in February when it's

6:39

dark at 3:00 PM and it's raining and

6:42

it's miserable and there's taxes

6:44

and there's, you know, public transport to deal with.

6:46

So I think you do see that from people that

6:49

go back or go home, it's a big culture

6:51

shock and you have to be really

6:53

ready for that. And I know that I'm not. And I

6:55

know that my kids aren't, even though they, they

6:58

complain about the cold. Now it's 24 degrees .

7:00

Louis . My daughter went to school this morning with gloves, earmuffs

7:03

, a jumper and a scarf. And

7:05

she was still telling me that she was cold. And I mean, yeah, it was,

7:08

I mean, there was a nip in the air, but it's a divine

7:10

nip . It's not a not ,

7:13

They're not in

7:16

the UK, right ?

7:17

No . Yeah . I , you , the weather is one of the many, many

7:19

issues and I know we often get leveled at us

7:21

as expats and , and you know, raising kids here,

7:23

sometimes people say, you know, you're raising them in a bubble.

7:26

You know, my mom and dad were here recently and they

7:28

were chatting about some of the UK news and you know , mentioning

7:31

the word stabbing of someone had been stabbed. And my

7:33

daughter actually said, what's stabbed sort of this whole,

7:35

the whole room sort of went quiet. And then when she'd gone

7:37

to bed, my parents were like , we , you know, you're gonna have

7:39

to tell her about these things. She's gonna need to know about these things.

7:41

And I was like, yeah , well she's eight . Does she need to know yet

7:43

? And I got quite defensive , but then I thought , you

7:45

know , am I raising her in a bubble? Should she

7:47

be more exposed to these things ? I mean , what do you think about that ? And

7:50

like how , how kids are raised here as a negative

7:52

,

7:53

Think that pushes

7:56

and you think about , and ultimately

7:59

I think the thing that's been the most powerful for me is

8:02

looking at people that I know that were raised here,

8:04

who are incredible human beings. And when

8:07

it comes down to that, I look at them and I think if

8:09

my kids grow up to be like you great

8:12

and they are wonderful and

8:14

kind, and humane and smart

8:18

and intelligent and well and

8:20

not bratty . So I think that's

8:23

kind of my guiding light that,

8:25

that I hold onto . And in the meantime,

8:28

it's great that our kids don't know what a

8:30

stabbing is. I mean, I don't want them to

8:32

know and okay , so they go for university

8:35

or I will deal with that time, but

8:37

you are right as an eight year old cling

8:39

on to , for as long as possible. I mean, I'm

8:41

thrilled that Santa Claus is fully

8:44

happening in our house with such

8:47

a passionate belief and you know, that's

8:49

just incredible . I love that. So the

8:51

last thing I wanna be thinking about is the

8:54

violence, the side , you know , it's so sad

8:56

. And my actually has , to me , she

8:59

would love than to have the grandchildren

9:02

that we have here . She has in the , the , but

9:09

she's to , for

9:14

them here . And I , I know it's not perfect. And

9:16

I know that critics will say you

9:19

are being blind to X, Y, and Z, but it's

9:21

what feels right for us. And it's what feels

9:24

right for my kids. So, you know, I'm kinda

9:26

cool to stick with that.

9:27

Yeah, no , I hear you. I hear you. I'm

9:29

kind of, yeah. If , if we can avoid talking about stabbings,

9:31

then I'm kind of like, yeah, let's stay in this bubble for as long as

9:33

possible. I mean, you know, I don't wanna hear about

9:35

them and I'm 28 obviously . Um

9:38

, but yeah, I agree with you on this. So I'm encouraged

9:40

and it's a very good point about people that have grown up here. I mean

9:42

, I'm surrounded like in the office, I work and I'm surrounded

9:44

by Dubai babies. You know, kids that have grown up

9:46

here, they might have gone to a university in

9:48

a different country. They're very, you know, they're very well traveled

9:51

. They're, aerody , they're so dynamic, they're

9:53

full of ideas. They're brilliant human. So

9:56

you make a very good point actually about , we are surrounded by people

9:58

that have grown up here and yet have not disappeared

10:00

down a whole because they didn't know the word stabbed before

10:02

they were eight . So I'm gonna take some comfort in

10:05

that for , you know , super, and you mentioned

10:07

your job, you know, you came here, you had a variety of

10:09

super, super jobs, an amazing career working

10:11

for, you know, some incredible publications. And I have

10:14

to ask you , and you were editor of half bizarre

10:16

Arabia and there can't be a celebrity who you haven't

10:18

met at this stage. And some incredible in

10:21

people that you've interviewed that you had on the cover. What's

10:23

your biggest takeaway from dealing with these sort of Uber

10:26

famous celebrities and what are your thoughts on, on

10:28

sort of world of celebrity at

10:29

The moment? It's so different , honestly , case

10:32

by case some of them are so incredible

10:35

to me and you take it at

10:38

Charron would , would spring to mind as

10:40

someone who often the older ones

10:43

<laugh> were generally the better

10:46

interview, because they're more confident they're

10:48

able to have a conversation with you on their own terms.

10:51

They're not relying on a PR, they're

10:53

not scared about saying the wrong thing or having an

10:55

opinion. They have thought and beliefs

10:57

that they've gained through life experience, and they're

10:59

happy to put out in the world and, you know, hopefully, maybe

11:02

help other women through that experience

11:04

and through those thoughts. So in when you're

11:06

meeting someone like that, it's very rich and rewarding.

11:08

Obviously younger stars.

11:11

I think now it's shifted, but maybe when

11:14

I was doing it. So over the last 10, five

11:16

years ago were very media trained.

11:19

It was very PR I think now

11:21

you've got the, kind of the more Billy Eish,

11:23

honest, raw it's flipped again.

11:25

But certainly there was a period when, when

11:28

I was there, when it was a lot of media management and

11:30

that's just no fun for anyone. I mean the

11:32

Victor secret angels are the never try

11:35

and interview a victorious secret angel . They're

11:38

on the clock for Victoria's secret because you will get

11:40

nothing you probably wouldn't want to anyway,

11:42

but that's really banging your head against a

11:44

brick wall . Cause it's so media trained and it's

11:47

so party line and it's just commercial. And

11:49

when it turns into just trying

11:51

to sell products or push products, so

11:53

that's when it does become a bit so

11:55

destroying. And ultimately that's probably why

11:58

I fell outta love with it, but there are so

12:00

many incredible, you know, I was incredibly lucky

12:02

that my last ever big

12:04

piece and the one that I chose to went out, I'm

12:06

very deliberately was queen ran of Jordan . And

12:09

, you know, I kind of thought from

12:11

here, you know, I'm done like

12:14

in the middle east, that's my ultimate person.

12:16

Did you on a politic , I have a politics degree.

12:18

So from a political point of view, from a

12:21

humanitarian point of view, obviously she takes

12:23

all the fashion stylish, elegant role

12:26

model that is required to hit

12:28

those fashion magazine parameters ,

12:30

Such an icon. I remember that interview very well

12:32

at the time and all the attention

12:34

that they got quite rightly. And yes, I can only imagine

12:36

what it's like to sort of be in somebody like that sort

12:38

of orbit. And , and just as a woman, you know,

12:40

aside from the fact of who she is , woman to woman, to sit

12:42

down with somebody like that must just be absolutely fascinating.

12:44

Yeah. That , that was incredible on and

12:47

privilege . It took a lot years to get there years

12:49

. It , so many battles

12:51

behind the scenes and getting the , those

12:53

ducks in a row is like, I

12:56

mean , it honestly aged me a lot , but

12:58

for something like that, it's so worth

13:01

it. Whereas when you feel that

13:03

you are becoming apiece of a commercial or

13:06

for then eventually I

13:08

was kind of with that .

13:10

Yeah . I can . I , it joy

13:12

out it cause you conversations interesting

13:14

conversations with people and if you feel they're being too , I

13:16

mean , you know, obviously I work in PR, so I

13:18

am sometimes the person that is guilty of having to

13:20

make sure that , you know, your client says the right thing,

13:23

but yeah , at the same time you want it to be natural and

13:25

compelling otherwise, no one's gonna listen to it at

13:27

all. So you kind of defeat the whole object.

13:29

It's at the root of that industry. There is

13:31

a conflict between the desire

13:34

to sell stories isn't funded, right?

13:36

So there are incredible

13:38

stories that, that we tried to tell every

13:41

month, but there's no commercial backing

13:43

from that. And there's increasingly

13:46

a , a smaller readership cause people don't read long

13:48

form . And if it's not a Kardashian,

13:50

they are less interested. You know, if you're talking

13:52

about some niche artists in area

13:55

, you know , but the story is so much

13:57

more rich and it has so much more to give , but it's

13:59

very hard to get that over commercially

14:02

in a business way that keeps me

14:04

and my staff's teams paid. And

14:07

in a that actually people will engage with

14:09

and , and read . So it does

14:11

get very the industry and , and

14:14

I think that's , I was kind

14:16

of done with it .

14:16

Yeah, no , I can understand that completely, but you

14:18

Have a great medium for storytelling.

14:20

This is the thing, right ? I've always loved podcasts.

14:23

And you know, that all the research is showing that,

14:25

you know, that is that they're growing hugely in

14:27

the UAE and across the world. And it is essentially like

14:29

long form content, right? It's essentially like, cuz you're sitting

14:31

down to listen to somebody speak who sometimes

14:34

you might know who they are. Sometimes you might, but

14:36

it's a topic that's grabbing your interest or it's a conversation

14:38

that's making you interested and you know, most

14:40

podcasts at least half an hour long, some

14:42

of the shorter ones are they have that format because it's

14:45

a shorter concept or there's, there's a

14:47

reason why it's shorter. But yeah , they're usually longer conversations

14:49

that you can really delve into a subject or it's

14:51

someone that you wanna hear talk for a longer period of time. So

14:54

I'm a huge fan of podcast. This is why I love having these conversations.

14:56

Right. Cause you can kinda delve into them

14:58

. No , I ,

14:59

I love, and it's so intimate when someone's

15:01

in your audio space . If they're talking to

15:03

you in your car or if you're a run , you

15:06

really feel that you know them , which

15:08

is an incredible way to connect people

15:10

and to feel connected and feel

15:13

sort of emotionally tied to someone

15:15

on the other side of the world. And it's

15:18

luckily a bit cheaper than doing really expensive fashion

15:20

shoots in a

15:21

Magazine is no larger entourage that

15:23

I'm having for

15:26

Makeup Kelly . Thanks

15:32

time . Thanks time .

15:35

Yeah , I'll send , I'll send someone , um,

15:37

I dunno if you've read it, I'm sure you have. I mean obviously

15:39

Alexandra Schulman, who is the ex editor of British

15:42

Vogue, she wrote this fantastic book. When I think

15:44

Vogue was a hundred years old, it was kind of these diaries of

15:46

her life. And the bit that really interested me , I

15:48

mean, aside from all the glamor and glitz and behind

15:50

the scenes stories that she's build, you

15:52

know, she was a working mother , um, the whole time

15:55

that she was running that magazine and it was a different time.

15:57

There was no emails on your phone, then there was no

15:59

social media. No , she always says she left the office

16:01

and she left the office, but there's this really great bit where

16:03

she always describes , she comes home from work each day

16:05

and she kind of stands on the front step and she

16:07

takes a minute before she puts the key in the lock because

16:10

you know, she's had this crazy insane back

16:12

in those days, you know, maybe dealing with Naomi Campbell or,

16:15

you know, being on the shoot negotiating with her commercial

16:17

team, her ultimate editor, editor publishing

16:20

editor, and then she has to come home and be mom

16:23

. And I just wondered sort

16:25

of how you used to balance that. Cause I know you are

16:27

a working mother as well. You have these three gorgeous kids,

16:29

I'm a working mom . I'm always really interested to

16:31

speak to other women about how do you take that,

16:34

whatever you are doing in the daytime. And especially when it's

16:36

super, super high octane, like it is working in

16:38

a fashion magazine sort of coming home

16:40

and you know, peeling bits of cornflakes off

16:42

the floor and you know, your kids, my

16:44

daughter rushes at me when I , so I haven't even put my

16:46

bags down. I'm literally, and obviously I love it

16:49

when she does that, but there's this moment where I have to

16:51

transition, like how did you do that? How did you put hope

16:53

of that? How did you make that work for you and, and balance

16:55

those two parts of your life? I think I

16:57

Probably didn't, which is

17:00

probably also another reason why I kind came

17:02

to the end of the road with it. There

17:04

was a , a huge sense of,

17:07

but bizarre, bizarre is the oldest fashion

17:10

magazine in the world it's even older than Vogue. So,

17:12

and when you editor in chief

17:14

, it's very much imposed upon

17:16

you that you are carrying the weight of

17:19

over 150 years of heritage

17:21

and, and what have you. And that

17:24

, that weighed quite heavily on me as

17:26

a person . And I think particularly as it was

17:28

kind of at the time that social media was

17:31

starting, you know , I think Alex Schulman

17:33

was, she's obviously she's

17:35

older than me and more confident and experienced

17:38

as well. And therefore very able to separate

17:40

those things. Whereas I felt a very strong responsibility

17:43

that I had to personally

17:46

represent this brand, which

17:49

maybe isn't actually me. You

17:51

know, I'm not this incredibly

17:54

elegant round, the clock , 24

17:56

hours a day person who has

17:58

everything just so and holds dinner parties

18:00

, you know, lives , this bizarre lifestyle.

18:02

I don't , that's not, that's absolutely not me at

18:05

all . So there was a bit of a conflict there. And I think

18:07

I did feel that I had parti , you

18:09

know , when you are out in public, you , you're not out

18:11

as you, as Louise, you're

18:13

out as the <inaudible> chief of hub , Sara

18:15

Arabia. And that's a very different thing. And

18:17

people bring a lot of expectation to that. And

18:19

a lot of they placed a lot of

18:22

demands on that. Well , it probably, I never realized

18:24

this at the time, but I think internally probably was a

18:26

bit of a conflict for me. I

18:28

think it's different now. I , and

18:30

also because social media was coming

18:33

up, no one really knew how to

18:35

balance it. And I did feel that I had to maintain

18:37

this bizarre editor kind of , but

18:40

whereas actually I'm probably, I'm incredibly

18:42

clumsy, goofy, scruffy

18:45

, lazy, you know, messy,

18:48

not adjective . Like we all are

18:49

A normal human being that I think you are you're describing

18:52

When I sat and you know , had to describe

18:54

the bizarre reader. These are not

18:56

adjectives that I would've put on her . <laugh> the ones

18:58

I , so there was a conflict

19:01

and I don't think anyone quite knew how to manage the

19:03

personality side of things in terms

19:05

of social media, with the brand and that , you

19:07

know, there's very removed and elegant. I

19:09

think it's different and people

19:11

understand that people are people and

19:14

their individuals and they're not just because , you

19:16

know, you're the, of a fashion magazine or you

19:18

are something like this that you

19:21

can't therefore be your in person. And they're more confident

19:23

to express individuality. And

19:26

it doesn't mean that you are damaging

19:29

a brand in any way per, but

19:31

I did feel that conflict at times. Definitely.

19:34

It's hard. You've got kids an

19:37

event and they're screaming or they're covered in candy.

19:39

Flos of , you know, they're not looking like the children that

19:41

we have in . Let me tell you, you

19:44

know, that it is quite hard to put

19:46

that aside. Yeah. I can't

19:47

Imagine. I mean, the other day what I was at the event

19:49

that we were talking about earlier, the other, another an

19:52

influencer came up and then we were chatting

19:54

and actually she said, oh, I follow you on Instagram. And

19:56

you know , I'm just a normal human being. I'm not an influencer, I've

19:58

got barely zero followers, but she knew me

20:00

so instantly. I was like, oh, okay . And she was like, oh , you sort , how

20:03

are your chickens and the cats? And I was like, oh gosh, okay

20:05

. Yeah, you kind of almost forget. Cause I just kind

20:07

of do Instagram for like my friends and my family. And then

20:09

I forget that actually people could be looking. So just thinking,

20:12

gosh, when I was , I knew I was coming to speak to you. I

20:14

mean, to be doing that job is one thing. And

20:16

then now to be doing that job with social media as well,

20:18

and to kind of always have somebody looking at you, cause

20:20

yeah, of course I go to spin with no

20:22

makeup on and in my, you know, scry

20:24

old gym kit and sweat , of

20:27

course we do. We're all human rights. So to then, you

20:29

know, people could be watching you as well. It's it

20:31

must be a real challenge now for people to

20:33

kind of live with that lens on them as well.

20:35

Yeah. I guess everyone is kinda figuring

20:38

it out and doing what works

20:40

for them. It's become such a tool for

20:42

, for any form of professional development

20:44

in the sphere that we are in.

20:47

You need it. And I

20:49

guess it's up to you as to how much you're prepared to put out

20:51

there and how much you're not and how you frame it

20:54

and how you shape it. And there are obviously

20:56

people out there who are incredibly open and

20:58

put everything out there with zero

21:00

filter and zero, you know, and

21:03

that's super cool and amazing if

21:05

I'm not that brave bothered <laugh>

21:08

once you've kind of lived that whole fashion

21:10

glossy, you know, it is still a part of me deep

21:12

down I've , I'm never gonna not love fashion and

21:15

not love that glamor . And, and

21:17

I do still a hundred percent retain

21:19

that to an extent, but then, and

21:21

I , I don't really put much kind of raw stuff

21:24

out there just because it's just not me

21:26

to do that . I love it when people do. Oh,

21:28

of course.

21:29

Yeah. Yeah, no , absolutely.

21:30

I think we're all figuring it out and it'll be interesting

21:32

to see my kids at the moment don't have any

21:34

interest. They're not bothered . I've tried to get 'em to do TikTok zero

21:37

interest in that . So it'll be interesting to

21:39

see how they engage with it . I think this

21:42

generation , you know , the really young ones now

21:45

coming up .

21:45

Yeah . Very interesting to how it's

21:48

all gonna develop . I completely agree. I feel like

21:50

, um, yeah, I mean, TikTok has kind of passed

21:52

me by I've made a decision that it's just, I'm

21:54

gonna let it pass me by. I'm happy for it to , I mean, sometimes

21:56

people will send me things and I'll watch, you know, if it's like cats

21:58

, skateboarding, cats , or something, I'm always interested

22:00

in skateboarding, cats , but um , otherwise, so

22:02

yeah , otherwise I'm like , I'm now

22:05

I think so . Let's see . I'm sure in 10

22:07

years more , a daughter will be on it. So you had , um,

22:10

a really sort of interesting switch in your life

22:12

and I loved what you said about it . You said it's, it's

22:14

really hard to be brave, but it's worth

22:16

it like resigning from what I always thought

22:18

was my dream job. Like auditioning to be an indoor

22:20

cycling instructor after the age of 40. So

22:23

you left a job, a lot of people would fight to the death

22:25

for, and I'm interested in sort of what made you touched

22:27

on it a little bit now, but what made you realize

22:29

it, wasn't your dream? And then what made you kind

22:32

of finally take the step to do it because this is a

22:34

big change and I'm really fascinated in people that make

22:36

big switches. And I'd love to know more about that. There

22:38

, there

22:39

Were a lots of factors and yeah, it is the

22:41

dream job. I mean, there , there are 20 people

22:43

have that job in the world, maybe roughly, and it

22:45

is an incredible job and you are certainly

22:47

externally or , or by the fashion and industry treated

22:50

like an absolute princess and that's very

22:52

alluring and very seductive and

22:55

you are flown around the world business class and

22:57

you stay in incredible hotels

23:00

where they try and get you massages. And I hate

23:02

massages. So I'm always trying not have , like

23:05

I hate and you are given handbags

23:09

and shoes , pretty pretty things.

23:11

And it's when you get into

23:13

that, it's very

23:16

hard to end

23:19

it or to walk away from it. It's very

23:22

and very alluring and you become

23:24

part of the cycle that it's

23:27

absolutely not a deal with the devil , but it's absolutely a

23:31

deal that you are part of that machine. And

23:33

then you are in return a

23:35

tool for these brands to

23:37

sell more expensive handbags and jewels

23:40

and shoes and things like that. And

23:42

for a while , I was called

23:45

to be that part of that cycle. You know,

23:48

I was aware of it. I'm certainly not blind

23:50

to it, but eventually I

23:52

, I just realized, do you know what? I don't

23:55

really care about Hamburg and

23:58

I'm spending so much time

24:00

traveling. I would go to LA quite a

24:02

lot and that's even to go and had

24:04

it down to like one night there, but that's

24:06

still a week. Pretty much certainly have five days out

24:09

, Dubai away from kids traveling

24:11

for 20 hours in each direction. You're

24:14

making all this money, but you're spending

24:16

it on the very stuff that

24:19

you do, you know, like, and

24:21

so I was like , why am I making money

24:23

to buy expense the handbags ? I , I, don't actually like,

24:26

you know, I'm kind of conditioning myself to want

24:29

a lifestyle that I'm promoting

24:31

and it's all a bit of a cycle. And

24:34

actually I'm not, if I step back from it

24:36

and take that allure away and

24:38

really break it down, which actually COVID helped

24:41

with, although I had left before them , but that

24:43

really solidified it. So that was one thing

24:45

. Obviously, the being at the travel, the being away from kids,

24:48

the corporate environment, just

24:50

technically where magazines, whether

24:52

that's online or print, just the

24:54

whole concept where they're going, how commercial they

24:57

are , how they're physically run in terms

24:59

of the commercial aspect and

25:01

how little value editorial,

25:04

pure editorial with zero commercial impact

25:06

behind it can have nowadays there's

25:09

very few titles in the world that

25:11

can really have a true editorial voice,

25:13

particularly in that sphere where it's very expensive

25:15

to produce that content, obviously in

25:18

podcasting, it's different, but the

25:20

whole social media thing

25:22

is tough because it means you

25:25

have bring that that's

25:28

where the reach is a hundred percent

25:30

. You know, one influencer can have

25:32

millions more eyeballs than a copy of a magazine.

25:35

So you have to harness that and bring it in,

25:37

but that's tricky as well because they work

25:40

on digital. They don't work quite so well in

25:43

print . And it's very hard to go from telling from

25:45

interviewing queen interview an influencer

25:48

and , and giving it the same weight and the

25:50

same currency because the

25:52

influencer is incredible at what they do on

25:54

digital in their format. It doesn't

25:57

necessarily mean that they're gonna make

25:59

a fantastic 4,000 word deep dive

26:01

interview. So there was that, and

26:03

I just felt like I'd come to the , I had fall . I

26:06

had genuinely fallen out of love with

26:08

it. So that was certainly why

26:11

I stepped aside. And the thing that I'd

26:13

worked so long for, which was to get queen rhino

26:15

, to agree, to be photographed by us and

26:17

interviewed by me, it's a pretty incredible footnote

26:19

to end on . I have say , well , there was

26:22

no one . She was my ultimate cover . Start

26:25

from the start for har bizarre Arabia.

26:27

She was the ultimate personification of everything,

26:30

particularly at that time for the region. So

26:33

I kind of thought, well, where to now

26:35

region, I didn't want to leave Dubai. Didn't

26:37

want to leave the , you know, we've got such a lovely

26:39

life here. So I did it . It was quite spar at

26:42

the moment. I'm not gonna lie . I'm quite impressed

26:44

with like , I didn't really plan it. I

26:46

just did it. I just woke up

26:49

and said, right . I'm resigning.

26:50

Amazing. Well, that was what I was gonna ask you

26:52

as well. Like how did it happen? And like, do you , cause I'm

26:54

really interested in what you're saying about, you know, sort of trying to

26:56

sort of juggle your kind of being sucked into this

26:58

machine of things that you don't necessarily value,

27:01

not necessarily your core , all values. Because I think from

27:03

my conversations, I'm having a lot of people do

27:05

feel like this. You know, we kind of get up, we put the clothes

27:07

on, we go and do the job to earn the money, to buy

27:10

the stuff that we don't necessarily want,

27:12

but we , then we buy the stuff to make us feel better about the

27:14

job that we've got. And then before, you know, it, you're kind of it's

27:16

snowballing and you know, you kind of can

27:18

sort of take a step back and say, okay, you know , do

27:20

I need all this stuff? Do I need these things? Am

27:23

I chasing after the next handbag

27:25

or whatever it is ? And I just sort of wondered, I

27:28

mean , how did you cope with that on a day to day basis? Did you feel

27:30

that gradually, it was sort of like chipping away at you? It

27:32

was like a drip, drip, drip that kind of was happening. Honestly,

27:34

I don't hugely know. I think, you

27:37

know, when you've become a journalist , you have, and

27:40

particularly because I started on a very editorial

27:42

platform with zero , you know, we

27:44

were hard knowed fighting

27:47

for the truth journalists. Okay . The might

27:49

have been more to do with share prices and how

27:51

companies are performing, but we were not by

27:54

any means PR puppets. We were the

27:56

opposite. My first news editor told

27:58

me if you get sent , a bunch of you

28:02

are in serious trouble because we're

28:04

not here to serve the people who we're writing

28:06

about. We're here to serve the readers and

28:08

they want to know the truth. They don't

28:11

want to know this PR line . So

28:13

I came from that very hardness environment to suddenly

28:15

gradually, gradually, gradually you go more and more

28:17

and more commercial. And you know, everything

28:19

you do is being paid by someone and you are

28:22

somewhat , you are telling someone's story to sell

28:25

someone a product . And ultimately

28:27

did that make me feel good about myself. I

28:29

was trying to sell women stuff

28:32

that they didn't need.

28:34

Maybe they couldn't afford. Maybe

28:37

didn't make them feel great about themselves. And

28:39

that's not to say that I think the whole luxury

28:42

industry is like that because I don't at all . And I don't think

28:44

all female luxury consumers of which I

28:46

am still one. And there are still things, a hundred percent

28:49

. I love buying lovely clothes and what have

28:51

you. But to the extent that we were

28:53

doing it, it was too much. And it was too much to

28:56

be my job and my life. And ultimately

28:58

wasn't rewarding. I did feel like I was just

29:00

there to try and sell people's stuff that I

29:02

didn't necessarily believe in mm-hmm <affirmative> .

29:04

Yeah, no, I can't understand that. And um

29:06

, I really love how honest you were about

29:09

the challenge and then the new, the new phase of

29:11

your life and what you switched into. So you said

29:13

it was humbling, terrifying, and

29:16

life-affirming to start from

29:18

scratch at the bottom to go from being the most

29:20

experienced to the least the power of learning is

29:22

truly formidable. I mean, what did that whole experience

29:24

teach you now? You've had, you know , you've kind of moved

29:27

over. You can reflect, I mean, it , it was terrifying,

29:29

but I assume it was also brilliant.

29:32

What did you learn about yourself and what happened to

29:34

you when you went through that process? Yeah, I mean, when I

29:36

Left bar it was, I had nothing, so

29:38

I just decided to leave and I had all,

29:41

I kind of thought I wanna write a book, not

29:43

like an Alex Schulman book, but a , a fictional

29:46

book. And I did a course

29:48

online and I really realized I wasn't

29:50

very good at writing books . <laugh> brilliant

29:53

and not very good at concentrating

29:55

for that long or focusing or

29:58

it just, it wasn't filling me with joy. I

30:00

would . Okay . I love reading books doesn't necessarily

30:02

mean I love writing them

30:04

. And I, you know, I was playing

30:06

around with loads of things and bit of just

30:09

whatever anyone asked me to do, I kinda did,

30:11

but I didn't really have a game plan. So

30:13

that was just

30:16

doing bits and pieces here and there . And

30:18

then obviously it

30:22

in 2020 , and

30:24

I think it really solidified

30:27

for me that I missed and it sounds ridiculous, but I missed

30:29

of everything. I missed group exercise of

30:32

everything that we lost at that point,

30:35

you know, dinners and parties. And

30:38

you know, what I really missed was the

30:40

buzz of group exercise, that a thing that I wanted

30:43

other than anything else. So I

30:45

think that solidified for me, but I never wanted to

30:47

be a PT or like tell people how

30:49

to lift weights. No , it's just not, I love doing

30:51

it. And going to those group hit classes,

30:54

I never felt pull to that. I think when

30:57

in the summer of 2020 a

30:59

friend got me to go to an indoor site , I'd

31:02

never done it before, got me to go to an indoor cycling class

31:05

and I just really fell in love with it.

31:07

And I remember the more and more I went, the more

31:09

I sat there thinking, trying to break down

31:11

what the instructor was doing, trying to

31:13

understand the choreography, the timing,

31:16

the counting, and I was just really

31:18

trying to get. And I , so I , I dunno , I just kind of

31:20

thought , gosh, I can really see myself doing

31:23

this. It brings together a lot of things that I love

31:25

music dance. I'm a

31:27

terrible dancer, but when you're on the bike,

31:29

you can just do very small little moves. And you're

31:31

kinda in the rhythm rhythm. Like

31:34

it's almost poetry , like

31:36

not cool enough to be a DJ or technical enough,

31:38

but you are , you are almost being a DJ with the music and

31:41

lifting people through music. So I kind

31:44

of thought so on the slide , I did a

31:46

course, a qualification in spinning,

31:48

spinning with a capitals , which is like the trademarked

31:51

in your cycling with an amazing woman here

31:53

called rose high rose . Who's incredible,

31:56

but it's spinning is quite hardcore

31:58

. It's a bit more for like triathletes and people

32:00

who are really you're monitoring your heart rate. It's

32:02

very tech , it's less about the music

32:04

and the fun and the bit that I liked,

32:07

but I , I wanted to have like the technical grounding,

32:09

the education. So I did that. And then

32:12

I loved crank as a

32:14

client, which is the gym that I now

32:16

teach at. And I was very

32:19

frequently, but I would never, ever have

32:21

dreamed to inquire about being

32:24

an instructor because I'm twice the age of the instructors.

32:27

Many of them have fitness backgrounds,

32:29

you know, there's like Olympians. They're

32:33

like , you know, I wouldn't have even dreamed

32:35

of it, but they put a call out

32:37

for instructional auditions, which I saw,

32:40

but I wouldn't have, but one of the

32:42

instructors there , his class, I went to a lot, sent

32:45

it to me on Instagram. And he didn't know that

32:47

I had done a course had

32:50

this in my head, had any , he just

32:52

thought I was a client , but because

32:54

he saw me in that way, that

32:58

gave confidence to apply.

33:01

And if he had done that, I wouldn't never

33:03

have applied because I'd have thought,

33:05

who am I kidding? Like, I'm not, you

33:08

know, I'm 42 or whatever. I'm

33:10

not the world's fittest person. I'm not an

33:12

athlete. I'm not trained

33:14

in this. I don't have a background in it. I've spent

33:17

the last 20 years, you know, wearing she and

33:19

flying around the world with handbags. I'm not a

33:22

sporty person. And , but because he saw

33:24

something and also because he didn't

33:26

know, I think it was because he didn't know that I wanted to

33:28

do it. He just saw it outta

33:30

nothing. Like sometimes

33:32

That's just what you need though . Isn't it shout out to that man

33:34

, because yeah. Sometimes other people see something in the,

33:36

you that you don't see yourself for whatever reason, and

33:39

that could really give you the push that you need. But it's , it's

33:41

fantastic. I mean, obviously you love it and it's

33:43

been a really great shift for you. And I

33:45

love what you were saying when you're saying, oh, I'm 42 . And

33:48

you know, I started playing tennis recently and I'm,

33:50

you know, I'm a similar age and I

33:52

can't do that. You know, I've left it too long. I should have

33:54

done it when I was younger, but I started and

33:57

I love it. And I think, you

33:59

know, often when I look at gyms, there's a , a new gym

34:01

that opened actually , I think it's since closed since

34:03

COVID , um , that was in Jamira . And when I looked at

34:05

their Instagram, every single person on the Instagram, I

34:07

mean, no offense to 20 year olds, but every single

34:09

person in the Instagram feed was 20. You know , there was

34:11

no sort of harried mums kinda like dragging

34:13

themselves in after a 12 hour working day, you

34:16

know, I just wanted like normal people and

34:18

I even messaged them . I said, you know, is everybody your

34:20

gym like 20, because I'm gonna feel really intimidated

34:23

if I come, I think there's a real opportunity

34:25

to talk about, you know, show different people. And

34:28

let's, let's be a bit more inclusive, you know, whether

34:30

that's age, weight, size, whatever,

34:32

let's show, what real people look like when they go to the gym.

34:34

Otherwise we're just gonna put people off. And surely

34:37

what we need now in this age of COVID is we need people to

34:39

be wanting to do exercise and in not to

34:41

be a chore and it to be joyful, like you were saying, and

34:43

uplifting, and let's not put people off and

34:46

most ,

34:46

You know , a lot of the , I think, I

34:48

mean , that's a different, whole different topic about the

34:50

visuals and the aesthetics behind it, but a

34:53

lot of thet or the strongest clients

34:56

that crank are women in their

34:58

fifties and older. Oh , brilliant.

35:01

Yeah . Not the skinny little girls

35:04

at all, but I wouldn't say there's a correlation

35:06

between how slim

35:08

you are or as to how strong you are and

35:10

how well you perform at all. So

35:12

it's often the older clients

35:15

who are great athletes. I

35:19

hundred percent agree with you on the optics of the

35:21

fitness in history . And , you know, that's

35:23

what put me off applying in the first place.

35:26

Or , you know, luckily John kinda gave

35:28

me the nudge and I did, but I would never have dreamed

35:30

of it. Cause I thought this isn't a world for me. I'm

35:32

not, it's not my world. And

35:34

yet it is my world because it was when

35:36

I took away , all I wanted to do

35:39

was go to crank and go on that

35:41

bike. And there's a lot of, it's

35:44

not just the bike, it's the darkness and

35:46

the it's like going night clubbing , but no

35:48

hangover. So there is this huge endorphin

35:51

release and adrenaline push . And for me,

35:53

it really works. I'm not into yoga or

35:55

anything like that, but it's 45

35:58

minutes where you are not there. You're

36:00

just with the music. You're kinda in a trance,

36:03

you're sweating buckets. But for me it really

36:05

works. It's like absolute magic. And

36:07

it's been torture these past 10

36:10

days when I haven't been able to go because I've been stuck

36:12

at hope . Cause I can't wait to go , but

36:14

it really works for me and that movement. And

36:16

then it just became very clear that how

36:18

do I want to spend the rest of my life? Do I want to spend it

36:21

selling people expensive handbags or

36:23

do I want to spend it helping people get

36:26

healthy and find happiness maybe

36:28

and find mental fortitude

36:31

as well as physical strength through something

36:33

and how much more fulfilling is

36:35

that. And yeah, obviously you

36:38

have to be honest , there's a massive financial difference

36:41

between being an editor in chief and

36:43

being a cycling instructor . But there's also a

36:46

lot less expenditure. I don't

36:49

need fancy clothes to go to meetings

36:51

or , you know , brands to impress anyone . I just

36:54

need some types , you know , and a t-shirt and a

36:56

of cycling shoes every year . So there is

36:58

a shift and I , I'm very fortunate that I'm

37:00

in a position where I can do it. Not everyone I

37:03

know can become a fitness instructor

37:05

. It's financially, it's really tough, but if

37:07

I can help people be more

37:09

healthy and it sounds so cliche,

37:12

I think, but just find what

37:14

I've found and you know, this is for

37:17

life, right? At the end of your life, you want to

37:19

be healthy and physically able to move and

37:21

to be able to enjoy life. And you'll get that through

37:23

staying physically active and the

37:26

mental impact of it is absolutely

37:28

huge. I think in terms of

37:30

Mentally . Yeah , no , I couldn't agree more. I'm seeing more

37:32

of a move towards this . I think like , I mean, I was guilty of

37:34

this in my twenties. I exercised a lot more than

37:36

I do now. Cause I had more time. Um , and in my twenties

37:38

it was always about how I looked, you know, I wanted to get into

37:41

that dress, those sures , that bikini, I had a holiday, it

37:43

was very, it was all about the outward. Whereas now, I

37:45

mean, if anything changes physically, that's a bonus, but I do

37:47

it for my mental health as much as anything else,

37:49

you know, my mental health and my mental fortitude. I love

37:51

that word that you said, and with everything that's happening with COVID,

37:53

I mean, does it make you feel hopeful when

37:56

you see sort of people, you know, queuing up to come

37:58

into , everyone talks about crank every weekend, every

38:00

evening, my feeds are full of people going to

38:02

crank . Everybody loves it. Is this whole movement. Does

38:05

it make you feel hopeful about the way that we're going in terms

38:07

of, you know, society, a community, people

38:09

are starting to place more of a , of a value on this, on

38:11

this community and this cause there's this community part

38:13

as well, right? It's not just the movement, it's a connection, which

38:15

I think seems to be so important to people.

38:17

That's exactly what it was during COVID. It

38:19

was the group at exercise. So when

38:21

we, when Dubai was in lockdown and it

38:23

was what six weeks was or more

38:26

I've always worked out quite a lot. I did quite

38:28

a lot of CrossFit in my thirties, which

38:30

I find a bit much now <laugh> so

38:33

we were still working out at home, my husband and

38:35

I have got like various bits and bobs, but

38:38

oh , it's just so painful. And that's

38:40

that I didn't realize that how

38:42

powerful that community aspect of

38:44

it was until it was taken away. And that's when it

38:46

really hit home, how powerful it is to me was when

38:49

it was taken away from me, I realized, oh

38:51

wow, this is, you know, circuit, factory

38:53

glasses are, are amazing. You know, when there used

38:55

to be 120 of us in a warehouse

38:58

moving stage to stage, it's

39:00

been different since COVID. But suddenly I

39:02

didn't realize when I had it, how

39:04

powerful that experience was

39:07

until, you know, it's me and Andrew plugging away

39:09

with the kettlebell in the garden, on a

39:11

rower, you know , going , oh , I

39:13

knew that I needed to exercise to keep

39:16

myself sane, but the

39:18

community part of it is so, so important.

39:21

I'm not for everyone. Right. But if that's

39:23

what gets you going then? Yeah,

39:26

it's incredibly, incredibly powerful.

39:28

And it's just, I think when you find

39:31

what works for you or what you love,

39:34

that's, you know , hang

39:36

onto it. Don't let it go. And for

39:38

me, that has turned out to be recycling . I've

39:41

never until yeah, it was summer summer

39:44

in 2020 was the first time I got on

39:46

a static bike. I would never have

39:48

thought that that's what I would love because

39:50

I was doing CrossFit. I was lifting heavy weights

39:52

and this and that, but suddenly this

39:54

whole experience was transformative. It and

39:57

I think when you find that, whether it's yoga or

40:00

Pilates or Zumba , it

40:02

doesn't matter what the hell it is . As long as

40:04

you love it, then keep

40:06

that and keep that movement and

40:08

that activity. And exactly,

40:10

as you said, if you are doing it for the aesthetics, you won't

40:12

keep going. Cause it'll feel like a chore. It'll feel

40:14

like the word exercise itself

40:17

means, oh , you know exactly negative

40:20

word . I think it needs to not be a negative. You

40:22

need to be doing it because you love it and you are passionate

40:24

about it. And I don't even think about it. I just go,

40:27

it's not even at , oh , I've got to go

40:29

to the gym. It's just , it just happens. So

40:31

when , once you get into that routine and it's

40:33

just your life , it's a lot easier than I

40:35

think to maintain, keep going with

40:38

and see those benefits from. And it has made me happier

40:40

. Ultimately it's made me a lot happier.

40:42

Amazing. I love exercises, obviously,

40:44

a , a really important part of your life. I mean , not

40:47

exercise, we exercise <laugh> um

40:49

, but I mean, this podcast is all about

40:51

good intentions, how we can kind of like

40:54

set intentions for ourselves. And you , you know, you

40:56

mentioned your husband , you've got the kids,

40:58

you know, you've got this really busy life. How

41:00

do you stay grounded and connected

41:03

to what's important to you outside of

41:05

exercise? I mean, what are there certain rituals that

41:07

you do as a family? Like just , how do you manage to keep that

41:09

connection to what matters to you in the midst of all

41:11

the chaos of, you know, just generally living a family

41:14

Life, not like mega into all the

41:16

, kinda the self-help or

41:18

the spirituality or the

41:20

affirmations or any of that to , to be honest, we're

41:23

quite chilled as a family. I'm

41:25

pretty laid back. I like

41:27

everyone to have fun. I'm probably not as

41:29

strict as I should be. Like the

41:32

kids are supposed to be, they're

41:34

gonna be on the trampoline for most of the day. So

41:37

I dunno , I think we try and instill

41:40

good kind behavior

41:42

in them. It's hard in , in

41:44

like a consumer society. When

41:47

I know that, you know , they just want

41:49

more Lego or they want more this

41:52

or of that . And I heard folks

41:54

just now as zoom , I think they were

41:56

talking about birthdays and all the kids are going . The

41:58

important thing about birthday parties is

42:00

being with your friends. Cause all the parents have

42:03

drilled that into it . I know full, well , all

42:05

they care about is the party bag and the plastic tap

42:07

. They take away from it . I know deep that's

42:10

what the important thing about birthday parties is for them . But we're

42:12

, you know , all the parents are like , no, it's

42:14

about celebration with your friends and being together.

42:16

And you know, so I think give yourself a break.

42:19

Don't beat myself up over stuff, as

42:21

long as they're happy, as long as they're kind . Yeah,

42:23

they're horrible. A lot of the time and

42:26

they fight, but most of the time they

42:28

love each other and they're funny and they're cute

42:30

and you know, they're completely

42:32

barking, which is what matters to

42:35

me as long as everyone's kind of happy and not stressed

42:37

and not anxious. Then I'm, I'm kinda cool

42:39

with that.

42:40

I'm so glad you said that because I struggled with

42:42

it a lot over Christmas actually. Cause um , we

42:44

went away to Fuji Santa's presence got

42:46

delivered to Fuji , which meant that we had take

42:49

with us . And as I was putting them into the suitcase, I

42:51

said to my husband and I thought we'd been quite good. Like it

42:53

was Lego. You know, it was , it wasn't like huge,

42:56

huge amounts of stuff, but I still filled a

42:58

sizable suitcase with presents . And I said like

43:01

, I just felt bad about it. I was like, well , there's

43:03

just so much stuff. And she

43:05

already has a lot of stuff and we're just getting more

43:07

stuff and I feel very conflicted about

43:09

this a lot of the time, you know, how do you balance?

43:12

And yeah , like you say, kindness and those values

43:14

at just think , we're just trying to kind of keep quite drip

43:16

, drip dripping in. And that's how we try and live our lives.

43:19

But I still struggle with, you know, I mean off

43:21

to my right here, there is a Lego table and

43:23

there is a mountain of, you know , there's a Lego hotel, there's

43:26

some Disney Lego. There's,

43:28

there's a yacht. I mean, every time I

43:30

look at it, it's breeding. I try to tell myself it's very educational

43:32

and it's fantastic for , you know, maybe you'll

43:35

be an engineer who knows, but yeah, I struggle a lot with this

43:37

whole consumerism culture and raising children

43:39

within that environment. So I'm glad to hear

43:41

you say it as well. Cause it makes me feel a bit less alone.

43:44

I , we can't be the only ones I'm sure as

43:46

well that are sort of struggling with this. Yeah .

43:48

I mean the , the kids do stuff

43:50

and they want lots of presents under

43:52

the Christmas tree and they see that in

43:55

a movie and it looks magical. And

43:57

I remember that feeling as well of, you

43:59

know, seeing those American movies when you're young

44:01

and yeah, I probably am guilty of wanting to

44:04

replicate that, wanting them to have that experience

44:06

and percent over buying stuff that Christmas

44:08

presents that haven't even been taken out

44:10

the box , but they were so excited to have

44:13

them . And you know what , sometimes I've

44:15

just , I a break with things

44:17

like that and think it's one day of the year, maybe

44:20

we're spoiling them . I don't think they're really spoiled.

44:22

To be honest, I they've got zero

44:24

concept of brands

44:27

or okay . Fox I'll

44:29

confess. He did write letter Sam in which he

44:31

requested an iPhone 12. Now why

44:33

a 12 ? I dunno . I think , I don't think he's aware

44:35

. And Sam did

44:38

reply to him and tell him that that is not a request

44:40

that the ELDs were prepared to consider he's

44:43

seven, but you know, he was just being cheeky.

44:45

He knew that that was not gonna happen. So in

44:48

the main , as long as they don't act spoil

44:51

or grab , then I also don't

44:54

want the house to be Auste or too

44:56

strict or too as

44:59

long it's happy . It's just checking that that balance

45:01

is there. I think checking that it's happy

45:03

without spiraling into like

45:06

being spoiled or , and I agree ,

45:08

And it

45:09

Also keeps us happy as well when happy

45:11

. And I think when everyone's happy, it's

45:13

kinda a bit of a fulfilling circle . It's just a nice place to

45:15

Be. Definitely. Um, I wanted

45:17

to ask you, I mean, obviously you interviewed loads of

45:20

people from all walks of life in your

45:22

various roles. Is there anybody that

45:24

you didn't get to interview? If you could interview

45:26

anyone for the sort of world leaders, you

45:28

know, international brands , is there anyone that you would like to

45:30

interview that you never got?

45:32

God , they're probably loads, but probably not people that

45:34

would've been in a fashion magazine.

45:37

Certainly I'd love to speak to

45:40

authors of some

45:43

of my favorite books , which

45:45

absolutely would not be bizarre type

45:48

material. So I love fantasy

45:50

literature to speak to

45:53

some of those great fantasy authors, Georgia

45:55

, Martin kind , you know , those kinds of

45:58

people . How do do that ? You

46:00

know , what's in their , I'm sure

46:02

they're probably like really boring and can't

46:05

articulate it , but they're incredible , right ? People

46:07

that can create these ho

46:12

just to be able to delve into their

46:14

psyche and understand how

46:16

they do that would be incredible

46:19

musicians. I think as well, you know, even DJs,

46:21

just people, people

46:24

who have this great creative output,

46:26

which I I'd

46:28

love to understand how they do that or just

46:31

to be around that is , is amazing .

46:33

Uh , agreed . Stephen King has always fascinated

46:36

me cause obviously he writes these, you know, you

46:38

may or may not like horror. I find them a bit too. They're

46:40

a bit too frightening for me. Days since I've got older, I've

46:42

become more cow custard , but I've , I've heard him speak

46:44

before and he sounds like a perfectly normal person. You

46:47

know, he sounds like he's just a normal human being. He also,

46:49

I assume maybe he doesn't go out and get pins of

46:51

milk. Maybe somebody else does that for him. But he, he

46:53

speaks like a normal person and yet the books he

46:55

writes, I mean, where does this come from? Fascinating

46:58

how authors sort of put these things together.

47:00

This is why the litera , um , Emirates literature festival is

47:02

so fantastic. Right? You get to kinda

47:04

come and see some of these authors and they come, I think it's next

47:06

month. And just on books. I mean, I love to hear that you love

47:08

reading. Are there any books that sort of you've

47:10

absolutely loved that have meant something to you over

47:13

your life? I ,

47:14

You were gonna ask about books and I'm so bad

47:17

at remembering. I mean, I

47:19

love so all the big fantasy epics

47:22

I love. And there , there probably aren't many

47:24

that I haven't read, but

47:26

if you were to start grilling me on them, I wouldn't have a clue. What dragon

47:29

is this? What ? Cause they , they do kind of go

47:31

in and out, but when I'm reading it , I'm so immersed

47:33

in it. And I love those transformative

47:37

world building experiences.

47:40

They're my absolute favorite . And again , this maybe

47:42

comes back down it similar to like

47:45

buying the kids toys and stuff of , you can get

47:47

into saying , okay , you need to read these

47:50

books or you need to read these great works of literature,

47:52

or you need to be reading voices from

47:55

, um , minorities that haven't

47:57

had a chance to be expressed.

47:59

And these are the worthy books to read.

48:01

And this is what you should be reading to widen

48:03

your world. That's

48:06

all very well . But if you're not enjoying , or

48:08

it's not immersing you , or it's not , you're transporting

48:11

you to another place . So you're not really coming

48:13

outta that experience feeling better

48:15

. Then I think that

48:19

I like about dragons and wizards

48:22

and that me happy

48:24

. It , it

48:28

brings , keeps me reading . And

48:30

I , the most important thing is to be reading.

48:32

Doesn't really matter whether it's the back of

48:34

a cereal packet or it's, you

48:36

know, the works of Shakespeare. I think as long as you are reading such

48:39

a powerful tool. So again, like

48:41

with exercise, find what you love and

48:44

don't let go of it and you try other stuff, but

48:46

don't be guilted into reading

48:48

kind of if you like it. Amazing.

48:51

And I'm sure there's incredible works out there that are

48:53

uplifting, but so much that I find a little bit

48:55

draining. <laugh>

48:57

No, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. I've just

48:59

finished a very , um, much laud

49:01

author it's fiction, you

49:03

know, everybody's raved about it. It was this, it was bold. It

49:05

was brave. It was, I think Maryanne

49:08

keys said it was like a series of bomb. Go

49:10

off . It was so impactful. I

49:12

literally read it over a week. Every

49:15

page I was like dragging myself through

49:17

mud. I just did not enjoy it at all. And this

49:19

, this is one of the worthy ones I was , you know , I couldn't wait to get

49:21

it. I was like a little poppy waiting for it to arrive

49:23

from mcg Rudy's and then it came and

49:26

it just did not do it for me. And yet , you know, I know

49:28

that the next one I might pick up a bunk Buster or,

49:30

you know, a really a really

49:32

basic thriller. I think you've gotta pick

49:34

up whatever you and I read a lot and you gotta read , read what

49:37

you like. If you self-help fiction,

49:40

non-fiction memoirs, I'm

49:42

an equal opportunities reader I'll read absolutely anything.

49:44

And sometimes like you say, the ones that you're supposed to, like,

49:47

if I doesn't do it , if you just move on. Yeah.

49:49

We so privileged to have time to be able to, and

49:53

to have that time . So don't

49:55

make it a chore. I think, make it enjoyable.

49:58

And again, I think don't beat

50:00

yourself up over. It would be my

50:02

advice. And, and I have heard people

50:05

kind of say , you must read this and this and this and this and

50:07

this, and you need to hear from these voices and , and

50:10

I get it , but it doesn't

50:12

work for me. I time with my dragons.

50:15

<laugh> stay in that lane. I would say <laugh> absolutely.

50:17

My final question is which I wanted to ask you, which

50:20

I like to ask everybody. And it is a bit deep and

50:22

the answer we can discuss it, however

50:24

you want. But I mean, why do you think we are here? You

50:27

know, I loved what you were talking saying about finding your joy

50:29

and connecting to joy and you know

50:31

, whether that's exercise or whatever, but why do you think we're here

50:33

? What's our , it sounds like you've

50:36

found yours .

50:37

Gosh , I don't , I dunno that I have , but

50:41

I is religious and I

50:43

a upbringing . It's

50:45

something that I maintained in.

50:48

Anyway , I do miss that antibiotic . That's probably the

50:50

one thing that I really miss

50:52

from the kids upbringing is that

50:55

basic kind of biblical knowledge

50:58

that we had growing up in the UK and

51:00

whether you believe it or not, it's almost

51:02

more the, just the very basic principles

51:04

of right or wrong. And so

51:07

the lovely nostalgia and, you

51:09

know, I bought an team to have, we

51:11

were talking about Christmas just so that the kids

51:13

would be aware of this is the baby , and

51:16

this is Mary, and this is the shepherd because

51:18

they dunno , right . They don't know the

51:21

story of , they don't know the

51:23

words to carols that we've

51:25

had ingrained in us and that I do kind

51:28

of miss and not , not because I

51:30

believe in it necessarily , but it's , it's a

51:33

lovely tie , I think , to your childhood and , and

51:36

ultimate sense of a higher power or right.

51:38

And wrong , however you Dubai.

51:48

But like I said , it's not, I'm not religious. I

51:50

don't read the Bible it's church. I

51:53

probably don't really think about it.

51:55

<laugh> like after life ,

51:57

But this whole sort of like organized religion, it

51:59

doesn't have to be, you know, I think we , we

52:01

can all have beliefs and things that guide us and

52:03

principles, but you know, and it could be any different

52:05

religion or it's just, it's a way that you live your life,

52:08

right? It doesn have to be, you know, this kind of

52:10

like organized setup , secular traditional

52:12

way, I guess, whatever you wanna call it, which

52:15

is normally quite patriarchal as well as normally a

52:17

man at the top of it somehow. And especially

52:19

in Dubai where everything is so open and we can all

52:21

celebrate and have our

52:23

different beliefs and all these different religions, like

52:25

typical standard religions live side by side

52:27

. But I think there's also, I huge group of people now

52:30

that are just kind living their lives according to principles,

52:32

which some of them are , if you actually

52:34

break them down, you know, be kind love your neighbor,

52:37

do unto others as you would have done. And to you, they , they may

52:39

have religious backgrounds, but we're

52:41

just kind of taking these principles and living our lives by them

52:44

without necessarily going to church or going to

52:46

the mosque or whatever you would traditionally do. So I think

52:48

that's kind of quite an interesting progression as

52:50

to where we are now as a society and

52:52

sort of finding our ways and living our life with

52:54

meaning and principles without necessarily having

52:56

a religion per say , it's

52:59

True. There is , you

53:01

know, life is, is shades of gray

53:03

, very hard to be all

53:05

good or all bad. We've been , I've been talking about this

53:07

with the kids quite a lot recently because superhero movie

53:10

have been evolving, I think, cause

53:12

we love all the Marvel and all this and that . We

53:14

went into the Spiderman the other way and that we were talking

53:16

about vena or something and you know, it's you

53:19

no longer have you are the goodie . You

53:21

are the bad , which is how we were brought up

53:23

and how I think kids like

53:25

to they can't is that the goodie is that the bad?

53:28

And I've been trying to explain to them that, you know, humans

53:30

are a little bit of this little bit of that.

53:32

It's not, we're not all a hundred percent

53:35

good, a hundred percent bad, and we can't

53:38

all live by every, you

53:40

can't always make the good decision and always make

53:42

the bad decision, but there are shades of gray within that. You , you

53:44

can make the somewhere along the scale

53:47

decision. And I think if

53:50

I tried to live the

53:52

life of what might

53:55

be perceived as good or might

53:57

be perceived as the morally

54:00

correct or spiritually on

54:02

point decision, every time I'd go in highly

54:05

insane , I'd have to go and be a Mon and live in a or something. I

54:08

can't do that. It might not be the

54:11

morally right decision to spend a

54:13

ton of money on a pair of shoes that

54:16

I'm gonna wear once when I

54:18

could give that money to charity. But

54:20

maybe once in a while you might buy the shoes

54:23

because if you never buy them , you are

54:25

stripping all joy out of your

54:27

life. And then if you strip it outta yourself, you're stripping

54:30

outta the people around you. So it's finding

54:32

that balance and giving back

54:35

where you can in a way

54:37

that has the most impact.

54:40

I think, and for me, I teach

54:42

a group of kids. It's part of an organization

54:45

called heroes of which I've been working with

54:47

for again, that was another COVID thing

54:49

. So I think I started working with them November

54:52

20 , teaching fitness

54:55

to kids, with learning people of determination.

54:57

So athletes of determinations, especially learning

54:59

needs from autism or cerebral

55:02

palsy or across the spectrum from

55:04

physical to neurological. For me , that's

55:06

so something that I feel I can bring some

55:08

personal skill to it and really change

55:11

these kids' lives because it's

55:13

very hard for them to be active and to have movement.

55:15

It also gives the parents some time off

55:17

the kids can run off and , and do

55:20

be active for an hour that their parents can chill. Cause

55:22

the parents, these children, my gosh, their

55:24

lives are so, so,

55:27

so hard and they're incredibly heroic

55:30

individuals themselves, the parents

55:32

and that it's, I think it was, for me, it was really

55:34

valuable to find something where I could make a difference

55:37

as Louise, rather than a

55:39

generic sort of helping out in

55:42

a way that was fairly generic. And this

55:44

was really like, oh, I can really make a difference here

55:46

and really bring some personal skills

55:48

to this. And that's really rewarding.

55:51

Sounds amazing . Louis , I'll have to , I'll get more details

55:54

from on that . So I , cause that sounds fantastic

55:56

. Holly's

56:01

and they've just sports academy level

56:05

. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it's been different

56:07

. I think you go through different progressions of

56:09

formalizing and she runs a full activities

56:12

program with kids and some adults of

56:15

determination and they do rugby. They do

56:17

swimming, they do athletics, they do CrossFit. I teach indoor

56:20

cycling. I have taught boxing

56:22

in the past. I mean, I'm terrible at boxing

56:24

, so it's better that , but

56:26

it's when you, it's so important for

56:29

everyone to have access to physical movement and

56:31

to feel powerful and to feel like

56:33

they're progressing and they've achieved and they've lift a high

56:36

heavier weight or, you know, that should be open

56:38

to everyone. I that's really what Holly stand

56:40

she's brought this access to

56:43

everyone who might be excluded from those

56:45

activities and, you know, made it completely

56:47

open. She's amazing. Sounds

56:50

fantastic.

56:51

I'll look her up and IHA .

56:52

We had the mountain biking in Hatter

56:55

and kayaking and you know, trail

56:57

running and doing all this stuff

56:59

that you just wouldn't think, but it's open to

57:01

everyone. So I can't kind

57:03

of gone completely full circle, but it's fine

57:05

. That balance . So give back

57:08

where you need to, in a way that

57:10

selfishly I get as much out of as

57:13

the kids in my class. So it's

57:15

so rewarding for me because I feel like

57:17

I am actually imparting a skill and I

57:19

feel valued and I feel like I

57:21

am changing lives so completely

57:24

selfish that I get so much outta it

57:26

. I hope they do too. And I think, but when you find that, when

57:28

you find the thing that gives you something back , you're gonna keep

57:30

doing it right. You're gonna want to do more. And

57:33

it , it works. So try and find that and understand

57:35

that you can't just be constantly giving of yourself

57:38

as a woman and a mother particularly cut

57:40

yourself a break. My goodness. Or I always say

57:43

this to friends who are having business , you know , take the

57:45

help, take all the help. Don't

57:47

try and March it out because you'll

57:50

just end up miserable and no

57:52

one wins, I think. Yeah,

57:54

I couldn't agree all . And what a great point to end

57:56

on. Yeah. Uh , the super points at the

57:58

end. I really love your point about finding joy.

58:00

Like sometimes you are allowed to find joy and things, you know, like

58:03

we'd be lying if like I enjoy a comfort as

58:05

much as the next person, you know, you don't have to sort of

58:07

ack cloth on ashes and live in a mountain. You can have a nice

58:09

life, but you can still also give back and live

58:11

and, and find meaning of what you do and purpose whilst,

58:14

you know, wearing a nice pair shoes is , you know , why not? I

58:16

don't think they're mutually exclusive and yeah. Finding the balance

58:18

is the key. So , um , thank you so much for

58:21

our conversation that we , I thought it was fantastic. I really enjoyed

58:23

it. Thank you so much . Thank you . You

58:26

Thanks so much for listening to the good intentions

58:28

podcast. You can find links

58:30

to issues and to books that we discussed in the

58:33

show notes, and you can look for the podcast on

58:35

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58:38

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58:40

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58:42

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58:45

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58:47

you next time.