0:07

All right good morning and welcome to

0:09

the first burning platform of the By.

0:11

Think what we've got a couple of

0:13

use your studio that we've got. How

0:15

many weeks you said for five weeks

0:17

left to the elections? Very exciting. Well

0:20

you've already seen who are guest is

0:22

a for me sitting right next to

0:24

him He is none other than the

0:26

leader of Boss Sat he is most

0:28

see my money and just in case

0:30

we didn't know your name is on

0:32

the jacket. Deliberately very smart July the

0:35

with with. Other people don't know your name. Not

0:37

must remind myself as we want my

0:39

kids actually play these.of with a real

0:42

softball for you because I think it's

0:44

so sweet you posted a picture of

0:46

your mother. He was my mother's birthday

0:48

a. Special Special

0:50

special woman. I love it to bits

0:53

and she is unbelievable. Know at the

0:55

gala allowed to aim is just means

0:57

with love. Her name is mud like.

1:00

As a my dilemma my mother's actually

1:02

costs us all the arteta when I

1:04

want to and that's why I'm. I'm

1:07

I'm bilingual. So and so it was nice,

1:09

was nice to see nice weather was nice

1:11

that you share that with all of us

1:13

because you know a lot of these politicians

1:16

you don't want to dig too deep into.

1:18

Their personal relationship is with their family is

1:20

that can be terrifically unhealthy. It in your

1:22

casuals. Nice. It's nice to see

1:24

it could be drama. So all right, mostly

1:26

my money. We actually had the pleasure of

1:28

your company not so long ago. So out

1:30

of all the political leaders they're going to

1:32

say that we've had you and more than

1:35

anyone else. Even the last time we spoke

1:37

to was last year. And. You

1:39

can really say it was the run up

1:41

to the elections. We had a nice conversation,

1:43

we talked a little bit about Bowser i

1:45

remember city that one thing I will be

1:47

very grateful to you for for evermore in

1:50

their more more people in the political realm

1:52

who are starting to realize is as important

1:54

as the independent candidates which. Wasn't.

1:56

a thing in south africa you know we

1:58

take things for granted make a lot of progress

2:01

and then we go, oh but we want more progress

2:03

instead of going, wow look how far we've come. So that

2:05

was a big deal but I saw this

2:07

week you've brought in under the

2:10

fold so many more

2:12

small parties. Someone criticized you

2:14

immediately on social media and said, oh

2:16

well this is typical. Here's

2:19

the guy who was talking about independent candidates and

2:21

look at him now he's a party man and

2:23

he's running this in a party way. Should

2:26

we start there? Yeah it's a good place

2:28

to start. Firstly congratulations on your new home.

2:30

Thank you. This is a great facility and

2:32

it's super to be here. Thank you. One

2:36

you know this the fight

2:38

ultimately wasn't just about independence

2:40

only right. It was that

2:43

we could have a

2:46

direct election of politicians

2:50

of any kind. So even if you stand under

2:52

a party at least if

2:54

you are in Santin, let the people of Santin

2:56

know so and so is standing for them. Yeah.

2:58

This is what they stand for and if they

3:00

don't do their jobs you have to

3:02

fight them back and they get given money to

3:04

run offices and that's how the thing is right.

3:08

So that's what we were fighting for.

3:10

So we wanted the entire amendment of

3:12

the electoral act so that that could

3:14

be achieved and one day we'll get

3:16

a direct election of the president because

3:18

it's anomalous that the president is elected by a party

3:20

and none of us kind of know what's going on.

3:23

But what happened in this instance is that

3:26

when the bill arrived in Parliament they did

3:28

what is called them like malicious compliance with

3:30

the Constitution. They just said we'll unstitch a

3:32

few things that allow independence to stand. The

3:34

problem with that is that someone

3:37

can stand as an independent but their

3:39

whole constituency is an entire province. So

3:41

in Hauteng it might be easy

3:43

to travel from the Val to Pretoria but if

3:45

you're in the northern Cape how do you get

3:47

from Kimberley to Springbok and get 90,000 votes

3:50

and only that seat whereas a party gets

3:52

90,000 votes and two seats potentially.

3:56

So this is

3:58

about understanding that

4:00

the rules are baked in a particular

4:02

way. We established a party called Build

4:04

One South Africa, invited many of these

4:06

candidates, actually forced them to say, go

4:08

get signatures from your community. Many of

4:10

the candidates I met for the first

4:12

time when I saw them on our

4:14

list, because they came from

4:16

communities, their communities own them in that

4:19

they can remove them. And

4:21

ultimately, we have then the

4:23

additional benefit of the second

4:25

lot of allocation of seats,

4:27

which is proportional representative, which is that

4:30

then, actually, if you do get a

4:32

hundred thousand votes, you don't just get

4:34

the seat for the person, you get

4:36

two seats, or you can potentially get

4:38

three if they split them up proportionally.

4:41

So I actually think it's smart. I think

4:43

it's a way of making sure that we

4:45

can get more people who share values, who

4:47

have a vision for this country to represent

4:50

South Africans in parliament. And I actually

4:52

think that when we arrive in parliament

4:54

with more MPs, we can then fight,

4:56

so that one day, actually, we can get the right

4:58

to... It is your fault that we now have three

5:00

ballot papers. I'm afraid. That's

5:03

what I realized when I was reading, because I still

5:05

don't understand. Someone asked me the other day, why do

5:07

we have three ballot papers? I had to look it

5:09

up. And the

5:11

one is for 200 seats in the National

5:13

Assembly, but that's only parties. The

5:16

other one is for the other 200 seats, which

5:18

is provincial, and that's

5:20

party and independence. And

5:22

then the third one is for... Provincial.

5:25

Right. So this is partly your fault.

5:29

And not to your point, it's a

5:31

step in the right direction. But

5:33

I think what is sad for me is

5:36

that I'm not sure the IEC has done

5:38

enough of a job of educating people. If

5:40

you informed, had to Google and look it

5:42

up and all of those things, you can

5:44

imagine the goggles sitting

5:47

in Limpopo, what they will be thinking once

5:49

they present it with three ballots and how

5:51

they vote. So the short answer is just

5:53

vote boss on all three. easy

6:00

for people. Well

6:02

I don't want to get bogged down in

6:05

that nitty-gritty because I think that that's a

6:07

much bigger conversation and there are lots of

6:09

pros and cons including in

6:11

terms of a con, including what we see

6:13

in KZN with all of the political killings

6:16

that have been on the rise because when

6:18

you are not protected, when you are an

6:20

independent and you're not protected within a party

6:23

system, you are more at risk. It's one

6:25

of the things that leading up

6:27

to our first election was a

6:29

very big consideration for

6:32

the drafters of our constitution

6:34

with regards to how we vote

6:36

and why proportional representation was a

6:38

thing. But I want to know

6:41

if you think that you

6:43

have done enough since 2022

6:45

when you launched World

6:48

One South Africa to get

6:51

the number of seats you want to get. I

6:54

mean I just want to, and I agree

6:56

with you, we mustn't get bogged down on the electoral

6:58

system but I also want to highlight the fact that

7:01

political killings are often a

7:03

function of intra-party contestation. They

7:05

have very less to do with

7:07

public representation in that sense. It's

7:09

people who sit inside the same

7:11

party, fight over tenders, they fight

7:13

over multiple things, the Moerane Report

7:15

highlights some of these killings. Just

7:18

because you have a power of association

7:20

within a party, you own

7:22

the right of the power of disassociation

7:24

is what the constitution says. And therefore

7:26

your great difficulty is that often you

7:28

find these are wars of people who

7:30

say, I was meant to be this number on the

7:32

list and you got it and therefore we start the

7:35

violence on the floor. Yeah, but that thing, right,

7:37

you can, again,

7:40

but that thing, within the party,

7:42

the inter-party contestation is one thing

7:44

and within a party you can

7:46

always be redeployed, right? If you

7:49

are having an intra-party contestation but

7:51

where you have, and KZD in

7:53

particular, being a problem where you

7:55

have ISP, where you have independence,

7:57

where you have the ANC. And

8:00

because the minutes A consular.

8:03

For. Instance. His. Dies. You.

8:05

Don't get the party leader of the places.

8:07

that plus you get a by election. Read:

8:10

the people be healed and I'm not independent.

8:12

It's. As a because up

8:14

until now. Up

8:16

until this lasted Route Elizabeth they were no

8:19

independence. You had to be part of a

8:21

Pisces systems. But I kid you oh you

8:23

you cannot conceive hotel. Can be even

8:25

if you if you choose to get

8:27

bogged down in the said not use

8:29

your time till tomorrow. Lu said Allah

8:31

took a while and the happy to

8:33

since we're going on or announced I'm

8:35

sufficiently sisters. oh that's so do you

8:37

think you have done enough? Look. To

8:39

get what you. Are looking

8:41

for. On. Between it, act

8:43

as well. we've worked extraordinarily hot.

8:45

First things first. This. Is the

8:47

evidence of the issue? For.

8:49

A party that's been going now for a

8:51

yam a half and since Twenty Twenty Two.

8:54

As you correctly point out. We've.

8:56

Been able to attract. Just. Over

8:58

one hundred and forty candidates. What extraordinary South

9:01

Africans. This is a fresh breed of talent

9:03

that I don't think many parties have been

9:05

able to produce. To be honest when

9:07

I think about people like I am, Died

9:10

when I think about people like no one,

9:12

two thousand Winston people are Cassie Bird people

9:14

are making up a splash. Guess which

9:16

for young and a new coming people to

9:18

the political realm A you don't see a

9:21

lot of as new and fresh and they

9:23

not bogged down in old party politics.

9:25

they really are coming in to deliver a

9:27

strong message. Of his what they stand

9:29

for and politics men not being lift

9:32

up the politicians the suffers. The second

9:34

thing is we've been able to the

9:36

Cygnus as exercise was an important test

9:38

for us because it had to ask

9:40

us to questions. Could you be able

9:42

to a mess him a movement across

9:45

all my provinces and be able to

9:47

canada appropriate signatures been all man provinces

9:49

in all demographics in all. If

9:52

if you like economic status and more

9:54

seriously across or language groups and we've

9:56

been able to achieve that. Across the

9:59

country needs. Is an important

10:01

landmark to put on the table. The

10:03

I see on the office. for sixty

10:05

thousand we went four hundred and forty

10:07

thousand. Thirdly, When. You look

10:09

around, we've been able to raise that

10:11

is sufficient financial muscle through rallied democratization

10:13

of people coming on board and saying

10:15

let me help you with put up

10:17

posters across the country. With. Put up

10:20

structures across the country, cause politics is about

10:22

mobilizing citizens from the ground up and been

10:24

able to ensure that your missus gets through.

10:27

And. On. Even my

10:29

own personal. Standing

10:31

In society, it's been the hard yards have

10:34

been able to say good ideas that people

10:36

can resonate with a my message on a

10:38

job in every home. When you sit down

10:40

with people and you start to speak to

10:42

them about actually the government policy that says

10:45

only over under thirty five can work in

10:47

public with program, let's make sure that we

10:49

can put jobs in every single whole in

10:51

every single person's on That message is resonating

10:54

and we've been able to deliver. It's across

10:56

multiple channels, so we're not building a typical

10:58

political party in that sense. We we we

11:00

rejected city. Excesses of a

11:02

political party, having a counselor, senate, and

11:04

crazy things that people don't really understand.

11:07

We've allowed people to be for participants

11:09

of Basa and been able to mobilize

11:11

and the communities. I'm confident that's going

11:13

into these elections when people are looking

11:15

around and making a choice. They. Have

11:17

to answer this question which lead us to I want.

11:20

To. I want in on racial vision and

11:22

do I want to party that ultimately can

11:24

be able to deliver gets a promise and

11:26

I and I think with done the work

11:28

to do that to undermine the not a

11:30

you hadn't it yet look we we are

11:32

pushing for. I know it's a brave coal

11:34

but we've always wanted to add up at

11:36

an editor east at a low point. We've

11:38

gotta say to ourselves how do we get

11:41

between twenty or just above twenty seats And

11:43

so we going were pushing hard across the

11:45

country and what I'm saying is. That.

11:48

Use a football analogy. Pasa.

11:50

Wants to play Champions League next year. so

11:52

if you follow. The. How tempted least

11:54

that top four put the top four clubs play

11:56

champions leagues we want to be in that lead

11:58

to till. Five percent of the vote. That you're looking

12:00

for between five to eight percent. So that's what we

12:02

want to go for. Well, as I mean it's there's

12:05

a lot happening and in. This.

12:07

Country's politics at the moment is it

12:09

is not and foreseeable that. For.

12:11

One small party or a group of

12:13

them together. Could. End up. Scoring.

12:17

At a really big goal to use the

12:19

football analogy a little bit more. What?

12:22

Would be the most important priorities and

12:24

I'm stealing. Pull me slender and discuss.

12:26

She always asks the. Political

12:28

leaders. We've had pretty much all of

12:31

them separate three parties in the still

12:33

coming. You can guess which three of

12:35

the rise with if if if so,

12:37

what are the three my first things

12:39

and the main things that you would

12:41

focus on. should you be able to

12:43

influence things a little more than your

12:45

five percent? Yeah, look the stationary. The

12:49

most important thing that salaf with has

12:51

lost in the last. Fifteen

12:53

years. Is the

12:56

capability of government. The.

12:58

State is corrupted. It

13:00

is incompetent. We. Were just

13:03

speaking Idea about just the basic process of

13:05

getting an Id. People com. Hardwick.

13:08

A basic systems have been able to. So how

13:10

do a council if you to say to me

13:12

what would a my money type presidency look like

13:14

in the first hundred days I can assure you

13:17

you spin all of your life making so the

13:19

best with for governments that we can deliver. Because.

13:22

That's absolutely crucial You can. You can have

13:24

all the dreams and ambitions you like. The

13:26

reality of it is that if you are

13:28

incapable of delivering against that you got a

13:31

struggle. That's why even in a model of

13:33

selecting Candid at Kansas we wanted the best

13:35

so that you can send them to department

13:37

so they can. were caught in as far

13:39

as. What? Is important for citizens.

13:42

It's the it's shop. Super tried

13:44

like it's a famous line show

13:46

and we've got to focus on

13:48

making sure that we create. Not

13:50

only the conditions to deliver jobs, but be deliberate

13:52

about it. And that's what the last five years

13:54

for me outside of parliament have meant for. Give

13:56

it a minute for she a little bit further

13:59

on that one because. If Canton were

14:01

here, he would be asking you how.

14:03

How does the government create jobs, other

14:05

than government jobs, which is just the

14:07

drain and the taxpayers? Well, on the

14:09

first instance, job

14:12

creation is about cultivating a good

14:14

garden in some ways. And that's the fundamental role

14:17

of government, right? If you can't keep the lights

14:19

on, no jobs are going to be created. That's

14:21

a fact. And so we've created

14:23

a model upon how we can eradicate

14:25

load shading almost entirely by

14:27

introducing SMRs to make sure the lights do stay

14:29

on. You cannot fix

14:32

it unless you fix transnet and split it

14:34

into two component parts, one for some of

14:36

the ports and some for the logistics business.

14:38

And I've always said that we don't need

14:40

a ministry of transport. We need a ministry

14:42

of logistics, because that way we can

14:45

move goods in and out of the country easily

14:48

and more effectively. But it's also about

14:50

making sure that commuter transport is easier,

14:53

because if you think about how much people spend

14:55

trying to get to work, it can be up

14:57

to 40% of their income. So let's make that

14:59

aspect easier. The third dynamic

15:02

is, if unless we solve particularly

15:05

the issue around crime, investment dries

15:07

up, because skills can't

15:09

move backwards and forwards, both

15:11

domestically and internationally. So we've

15:13

spoken about decentralizing police so that

15:15

the intelligence is lower to the ground,

15:17

and there are models that show this.

15:19

So that's about the garden part. But

15:22

the actual delivery part, I've proposed, and

15:25

I've seen this evidence of it myself,

15:27

because we've worked in private services, that

15:30

we create a fund of about just 220 billion rents

15:33

that invest, particularly in the township economy,

15:35

so that SMMEs can begin to thrive.

15:37

And what you do post that is

15:39

that you partner with them from a

15:41

funding point of view. You stimulate infrastructure

15:44

Build, particularly in townships. Why Are we not running?

15:46

Instead Of running a BPO center here in Sandton,

15:48

why can't we run it in Alex? The Internet

15:50

is exactly the same. You Put it there so

15:52

that not only is there a job in every

15:54

home, but there's a job closer to home. So

15:56

That people can work closer to home. That's on

15:59

one level. Furthermore, along with that

16:01

in the stimulus of trying to make

16:03

sure that Michael industry becomes medium by

16:05

helping it funded, giving it the appropriate

16:07

mentorship ended training, you can develop it

16:09

further. And I don't want to dismiss

16:11

the fact that government has an important

16:13

role in terms of expend of public

16:15

works program and running a national civilian

16:17

services. So I've made the case to

16:19

say if Reach Meticulous must be able

16:21

to after that, spend a year where

16:23

we pay them for the food. Yeah,

16:25

they spent six months working in government

16:27

jobs and then they spend the second.

16:30

Six months making sure that they can deploy

16:32

those skills. That internship in training said it's

16:34

you fix for for not only values but

16:36

you fix for the skills bought. And then

16:39

I think the last thing. The one sect

16:41

of society that we've lost as a country.

16:44

Is in ah manufacturing sector so let's

16:46

use to pieces of technology that all

16:49

of us use. We all jews microwaves.

16:51

We will use kettles on the technology

16:53

of manufacturing Kettle South Africa output is

16:56

only four percent of the kettle market

16:58

and swirlies. We should be able to

17:00

create the manufacturing processes that ensures that

17:02

we can manufacture that stuff and be

17:05

able to deployed and twelve and markets

17:07

if we don't. And I say this

17:09

with all that gusto I can I

17:12

can put together. If we

17:14

don't educate our kids, if we don't

17:16

skilled them. You are rendering

17:18

them to permanent unemployment and unemployable. It

17:20

so so so so so that what

17:22

underpins all of this is a skilling

17:25

for jobs and so we've worth.way which

17:27

sectors would prioritize where the jobs are

17:29

going to come from and I'm committed

17:31

to making so then the next five

17:33

years we can deliver these two million

17:35

jobs. So

17:38

I hear you saying to the

17:40

things with sound very similar to

17:42

and. One. Other party.

17:44

And. That is about a capable state.

17:47

And. Deploying the right people, In the

17:49

right places as a lot. Like a that

17:51

deployment Are you at the A light?

17:55

Far from in some instances, new

17:57

economic policy. The funny thing because

17:59

this chris. about what are you at the light

18:01

of often comes up

18:03

is a function of because the ANC

18:05

light is the DA right no no

18:08

it is what the DA say you tried

18:10

to turn them into as I am asking

18:12

you if you're a DA light. List those

18:14

two things again a capable state which

18:17

I think a lot of people in this country are likely

18:20

to be a fan of I mean most

18:22

service delivery protests are about the incapable state

18:24

right so that shouldn't

18:26

be controversial it shouldn't be necessarily be reasons

18:28

for you to to be the

18:31

light of anything yeah and then the other one

18:33

was the other one was

18:35

about deploying oh yeah differently good

18:37

people on merit well when

18:39

I talked about deployment you

18:42

know I've worked with the Public Service Commission

18:44

which is the institution

18:46

tasked with the job of making sure that

18:48

the framework of government and

18:50

is care about what skills are needed

18:53

where so I use the

18:55

term deployment but it's actually a false term so

18:57

if you pardon me I

18:59

would remove that what I really am trying to

19:01

allude to is to say if you

19:03

want to see all of a scope the

19:06

Public Service Commission is able to look at it

19:08

and say given where s com is that we

19:10

need an engineer not a lawyer regardless

19:12

of the fact that the two skills that

19:15

two people are skilled but we need an

19:17

engineer therefore when you crafted the job spec

19:19

go out and shop for the best engineer

19:22

that you can put at s com or

19:24

if you're looking for a director general in

19:28

for example in the Ministry of Logistics let's

19:31

figure out someone who's done that or in the Ministry

19:33

of Digitization which is something I'm very passionate about let's

19:36

get the best person to be able to do

19:38

so so so one of the problems of this

19:40

deployment culture that you are alluding to has

19:43

been a mismatch of skills more than anything

19:45

right even even the fact that people can

19:47

choose people from their own parties and send

19:49

them there the crime has been that you

19:51

have water problems but you send doctors there

19:53

and as nice as it sounds the problem

19:55

with it is that a doctor cannot fix

19:57

my water problems I'd rather send them elsewhere

19:59

or in them elsewhere. So we've

20:01

got to be able to craft the skeleton

20:03

that says actually here the best skills for

20:05

these jobs and begin to make it possible

20:08

for the most professional people to come through.

20:10

This is true for Japan, this is true

20:12

for South Korea, this is true for countries

20:14

that if you started them in the in

20:17

the 1994 in the

20:19

same period as us we're in similar GDP

20:21

terms but they've outstripped us by far by

20:24

making sure that their ability to deliver is

20:26

actually far more effective by employing the best

20:28

people. So that's what I meant by that point.

20:31

On this issue of stimulus of

20:33

SMMEs etc etc you can argue

20:35

the case about whether it's light

20:38

of anything. Actually I spent much

20:40

of January in institutions dealing

20:44

with developmental economists both

20:46

at Harvard and MIT and looking at various

20:48

models all over the world. The reality of

20:50

it is that in some ways when you

20:52

look at economic policy there are some fundamentals

20:54

you've got to get right and they're

20:57

similar. Anyone who wants to think that they're

20:59

going to come up with something new under

21:01

the Sun is not going to achieve that.

21:04

The reality is that you've got to get

21:06

behind people who actually create jobs, make it

21:08

easier for them, support them as best as

21:10

you can, help them with social financial and

21:13

social capital so that they can be able to

21:15

get the right mentorship to deliver jobs. So all

21:17

of this doesn't make you light of anything it

21:19

just makes you someone who is focused

21:22

on saying how do we deliver jobs. Let's

21:24

be realistic I mean it's highly unlikely that

21:26

both are going to get an outright majority so

21:29

you'll have to work with other people. Now you've

21:31

shown that you can work with other people inside

21:33

of the party you just brought all these other

21:35

parties in this week which I think is a

21:37

story. Who

21:39

will you work with and who will you not work with? Because

21:43

the reality is you're still gonna

21:45

have the DA, ANC, EFF, these

21:48

guys are gonna be there. MK.

21:51

So how prepared are you to work with them and how

21:54

well do you think you will be received by

21:56

them? Yeah look we

21:58

foreground it every... type of collaboration

22:01

or any form of coalition with

22:03

the idea that we've got a

22:05

ten-point plan and we need to

22:07

stick to that. You know, in

22:09

2016, when I led

22:12

the D.N., we led the coalitions in

22:14

Joburg, which eventually elected Herman Machabas's

22:16

man, and they stuck it out for three years.

22:19

It wasn't even about Herman or anything like that. It was

22:21

that we sat down and said, here are the things that

22:23

we're going to do in government and anyone who wants to

22:25

work with us must focus on those things, right? And

22:28

so you spend three years and then you

22:30

focus all the energy on

22:32

collaborating with leaders, keeping them goal-oriented

22:34

so that it's not ego-driven, and

22:37

you make sure that you eradicate some central

22:39

things like corruption, make sure that the best

22:41

people work for government, and

22:43

you force. You can ask Herman, you can

22:46

ask any mayor I've worked with. The simple

22:48

question I put before them is, what are

22:50

you doing about restoring dignity of people by

22:52

delivering basic services and ensuring that ultimately we

22:54

deliver economic growth in all those cities? That

22:56

was the mantra. So to them, that's the

22:58

focus. That's all you've got to do. Now

23:01

to come back to the 2024 conversation,

23:03

we have to, again, with

23:06

the 10-point plan that SCOM, logistics,

23:09

safety, education, digitization, looking at

23:11

what we do around health

23:13

care, improvement of certain

23:15

infrastructure costs across those things,

23:18

then let's sit down with parties and negotiate. And

23:22

on one theme, when you say you've got to

23:25

eradicate corruption, you can't work with corrupt people to

23:27

eradicate corruption. So with respect, it would be impossible

23:29

to work with ANC. For

23:33

the simple reason that they've shown clear evidence. But

23:35

you're saying it would break down at the point

23:37

where corruption comes up. You wouldn't just out of

23:39

hand say, like, we're not going to work with

23:41

you. But at the point where you're sitting at

23:43

the table and they say, listen, this corruption thing,

23:46

you're going to go, hmm. I

23:49

mean, even at this point, you

23:51

could almost say, hmm, because here

23:53

are people listed in the

23:56

Zondo Commission, And they will

23:58

be serving as members of parliament. So.

24:01

Your. Problem with it is that we've

24:03

got this hanging thing and I'm asked

24:05

the questions. I mean we wouldn't have

24:07

Paul Apollo today said I'm not Us.

24:09

President Obama posts about a donation to

24:11

his own campaigns that then unraveled into

24:13

this: There's money in your couch business

24:15

or it. We wouldn't have those under

24:17

commission of hundred Us Zuma about. The.

24:20

Gabi to join us his testimony, end reporting it

24:23

to the public, protect us. So that's been work

24:25

of fighting now. Suddenly you been fighting these two

24:27

major cases, You arrive in parliament and and suddenly

24:29

people are going at. we no longer want to

24:31

look into the spot Apollo soup or actually those

24:33

under commission this as file it under a little

24:35

bit of a cupboards and then move on from

24:38

this. I think it would be hypocritical and I

24:40

think could be wrong. So let's get on to

24:42

the business of if you want to with this

24:44

this fight for absence to the party's. Ah,

24:47

I think the Pathway for South

24:49

Africa is a grand coalition of

24:51

the opposition. I really

24:54

think so. I. Think it does two things. It

24:56

gives a and see time when the bins. To.

24:58

Think is necessary. I'm I'm not. I don't

25:00

think the games The Daves he talks about

25:02

renewal. The best place to renew his outside

25:04

government. You quandary new and fly a plane

25:07

at the center. Said. Up. The.

25:09

Sick of Thing is a

25:11

grand opposition. That works in

25:13

this manner. Not. Know many people might

25:15

think I'm crazy for saying this. I don't think

25:17

you could form of form a coalition with the

25:19

Asus, but when it comes to issues of voting

25:21

around the budget, electing a president, a speaker I

25:23

think it would sit down to the If if

25:26

and say we need your vote for these things.

25:28

Because. I think these things are going

25:30

to be important if we're going to bring

25:32

change we never when I grew on ideology

25:34

and will never gonna grants come to the

25:36

party on some As and and some of

25:38

these things can come for his son up

25:40

on on on matters of how do you

25:42

form that government if you would tear in

25:45

your head this is what a cabinet looks

25:47

like And then you began to say how

25:49

do I trekked across the political parties the

25:51

best finance minister, the best person who does

25:53

did to like she us in all of

25:55

that bring them all together. And

25:57

form a cabinet that will represent the best.

26:00

The South African deliver for South Africa

26:02

and then furthermore say to yourself on

26:04

the plan. His. What we achieved

26:06

then you strip away with us. I have issues

26:08

with a D O have issues with the piano

26:10

is a very and I mean and they think

26:12

egos can be put aside them with see. The

26:15

have been before the people say you

26:17

have any got people have all the

26:19

other political party leaders have egos often

26:21

dismissed and you meant as an insult

26:23

Rise by the as I think it's

26:25

possible. I certainly think

26:27

so. I think that given even the

26:29

conversations we've been having, no. I.

26:33

Think that as a. Of

26:35

the leaders. I speak to and

26:37

this is a privilege of just been. May

26:41

be. Circumstances

26:43

of Broccoli to a point being married across

26:46

the color line speaks multiple languages. You've got

26:48

the option to be able to speak to

26:50

everybody literally, I can pick up the phone

26:52

to Julius to him and to be

26:54

the one about to join to anybody and

26:57

we can have a conversation methinks. the conversations

26:59

we've been having I think a better off

27:01

today given the existential issue of the country,

27:04

a kid and they have been. I've not

27:06

Sula, not. I. Ask myself with

27:08

lit. It all

27:10

sounds wonderful with you see less

27:12

as you can pick up the

27:14

phone and talk to anybody and

27:17

he goes can be put us

27:19

at so i asked myself why

27:21

then when you with with in.

27:24

The. Official of the

27:26

Cincinnati. And you

27:28

have all these skills presumably with the

27:30

even when you were in that patsy.

27:33

Why did you walk away? Why did

27:36

you not to use that particular? the

27:38

Rico. And and get

27:40

to discuss one where. You unable

27:42

to do that And why must they

27:44

believe that you can do it Now

27:46

outside of. The official offices. so let me

27:49

put it to the swear. When

27:51

you have the freedom to do the things you

27:53

want to do, So. Are

27:56

you sweetie? sixteen? Twenty. Six

27:58

know the great example. We. We're

28:00

in charge of the majority

28:02

of the local government budget.

28:05

I would those qualities since and they held

28:07

for for the three is so to talk

28:09

about the skill and the correlation behind that.

28:12

That. Is the work I did. Like

28:16

the little Amendment bill and pets. Maybe

28:18

not speaking extensively about. All.

28:21

That the a issues that were to challenges

28:23

that I would want to highlight that made

28:25

it. Near. Impossible to stay. On.

28:28

The first actually. Is

28:30

that? The. Reason: today you have one

28:32

South Africa. Is. Because

28:35

it became pretty insecure to

28:37

me. That we would

28:39

have to contest a sense of Isms. One.

28:41

Is I wanted one of one South Africa. And.

28:44

The were others genuinely was hit the day, will become

28:46

a minority party and that's what we've got to focus

28:48

on. When you have that

28:50

kind of class, It means that on

28:52

the issues were going to fight for. When

28:54

you've gotta be fighting for the right of

28:57

all South Africans to express their language, the

28:59

deal will say no. Let's just rather just

29:01

go fight in Stellenbosch just for this particular

29:03

language group only. When.

29:06

Your Leadership you're fighting hard to say. how

29:08

do we make So we've got a diverse

29:10

caucus in parliament and then people start to

29:12

say well if you're not gonna have this

29:14

particular race of people were not gonna campaign

29:16

and in the like since because this is

29:18

not something we say. When. People

29:20

didn't go, speak to donors and

29:23

make life difficult for you to

29:25

raise money because they feel that

29:27

they way is not been gets

29:29

as a part of minority that

29:31

becomes hot unsustainable. Either you will

29:33

die or the party will.the second

29:36

issue is that then the entire

29:38

environment inside the organizations became profoundly

29:40

toxic. At though A Mornings and

29:42

I. Say this even

29:44

when I think about it. Now that we're

29:46

mornings, I would wake up every day thinking.

29:50

I would rather fight disk for this

29:52

country. But. These battles

29:54

that I inside the organization where you

29:56

are reading about your life, the newspapers

29:58

every day with. The sources

30:01

for weeks and weeks on end. You.

30:03

Gotta come home and look at To Weiss You

30:05

gotta look at your kids you've got to have

30:08

your own well being and then say to yourself

30:10

is it then with had I stayed in that

30:12

yeah I can tell you as my photos there

30:14

would have died itself was unsustainable. So for my

30:17

own soul, for my own well being and now

30:19

I'm coming back into politics. Having as

30:21

the famous address of a coat would say,

30:23

tasted both defeat but also success and victory.

30:25

Having worked now in the private sector, having

30:28

skilled myself a little bit more I'm busy

30:30

completing a Phd know I'm a bit a

30:32

human being than I was in treating nineteen

30:34

and I'm and in some ways as painful

30:36

as it was, I'm grateful for the for

30:39

the break the haters who took I gave

30:41

me them. So an interesting come in here

30:43

from Patrick. He said he's right about this

30:45

Grand Coalition of the Opposition. It's what I've

30:47

pushed for the whole time. One of the

30:50

reasons and irritated as A D A constantly

30:52

going on about the P A is precisely

30:54

this. But I I mean I'm glad Pull

30:56

Me brought this up because it's always going

30:58

to haunt you. Write this question about why

31:01

you listed the at why couldn't you do

31:03

it in Idiot and there are a lot

31:05

of people standing up these insects I think

31:07

the princess snipes He said now you're getting

31:09

down to business as Pull Me. He should

31:12

have stayed specifically. So I do. I think

31:14

that that's it's interesting and it gives you

31:16

an opportunity to to blame yourself. But. But.

31:19

Now now you say that there's

31:21

a different relationship. With. You and

31:23

all these parties. You

31:26

look at. And funny enough, even

31:28

when when we managed to gonna

31:30

signatures right. The. Polls

31:32

that I got. Raised as

31:34

far as. A

31:37

C senior leaders to opposition

31:39

leaders who just phone to

31:41

congratulate because. It's

31:45

said opportunities that it's that since have

31:47

been able to not be. Issue.

31:50

Lights. Are.

31:52

Not willing to listen of willing

31:54

to hear the the the other

31:56

arguments. Sometimes you know when you

31:58

see parties you. To interrogate them Yes, the

32:01

may what do you think about? Way to the Dm. There's.

32:03

A bantam bendy there are not on they say

32:05

that the as arrogant the that know that's the

32:07

point in we had this discussion is john us

32:09

to let but. I. Think what

32:11

they really are trying to say is the

32:14

day isn't willing to go. We.

32:17

Hear you And what does it mean That Let me

32:19

give you a real practical example of hardest thing with

32:21

for. In.

32:24

I come back to this coalition discussion. I get

32:26

a poll from the city of to end his

32:28

book saying. Oh. At

32:30

the time, him and most of them

32:33

were proposing an additional two percent rate

32:35

hike additional. I

32:37

know you what a dilemma because you

32:39

need the if it's votes to be

32:42

able to pass the budget to let's

32:44

say for his constituency in Alexandria. They.

32:46

One know rate hikes. Not. Know

32:49

city can function without having to increase rates

32:51

as to some degree she has a point

32:53

about his constituency. The. Game Today

32:55

simply says stuff you. Were. Going

32:57

to put the rate hikes in a way that if the government

32:59

collapses, so be it. I. Spent

33:02

I can remember spending and number

33:04

of hours. With. Julia. See,

33:06

where can we find The Southern? This is what

33:08

are your actual issues. Hm, What are the numbers

33:10

here that we've got to play around with? What

33:12

is the net loss? What are all of those

33:14

things? We eventually settled on one person and the

33:17

city could be able to afford some of that

33:19

lack of increase, etc. But you know what, when

33:21

you're willing to do that, you get a better

33:23

deal. The quality works and goes forth. So to

33:25

me or I'm trying to get through is that

33:27

when you are freed up to do the work

33:29

that you got to do, The. Relationship

33:31

with those leaders is one of think what

33:34

do we put country interests. Let's

33:36

go for this. That's why it's even know these

33:38

party that we've been able to bring together. Some

33:41

of them a good counsel isn't places and some

33:43

of them is that if you aspire to lead

33:45

South Africa, You. Cannot.

33:48

Not. Deal with the contradictions of

33:50

this country. You have to

33:52

accept. That. the hopes

33:54

of one can equally be the fears of another

33:57

you have to accept that on one day you

33:59

i'm ellie Alexander, on another you are in Sentin,

34:01

you have to accept that there are others who

34:03

say private health care must be the only way

34:05

and the lack of government must be the thing.

34:07

There are others who are saying we don't have

34:09

another choice, we need government. You

34:11

in the job of leadership is being able

34:13

to find what I would like to consider

34:16

this radical centrism, this idea of being able

34:18

to bring the best of both worlds to

34:20

the table and drive it forward. You

34:22

have to manage contradictions. It's not black

34:25

versus white in this country. It's black

34:27

and white, colored and Indian by

34:29

constitutional expressions. It is

34:32

all of the above. It's rich and poor. You

34:34

have to work with those contradictions. The lazy path

34:36

is to say, well, I'm just a party for

34:38

blacks, or I'm just a party for whites, or

34:40

I'm just a party for coloreds,

34:42

or Indians, or Christians, or this or that.

34:45

Once you are down that slipstream, then we don't have

34:47

to think. We don't have to think through complexity. We

34:49

just have to arrive and say, well, this is the

34:51

view of the blacks and so we can't debate the

34:53

issue further. So what's your vision for

34:55

the country that you believe takes

34:59

those fears and ambitions

35:01

on all sides to

35:04

one place and

35:06

can drive us forward? What's that vision? And

35:08

that's why when I woke up and I

35:10

said, saying we want to build one South

35:12

Africa isn't just clever, catchy things.

35:16

It's actually an inherent ambition that

35:18

says it is possible to live in a

35:20

country upon which blacks and whites, coloreds and

35:22

Indians can prosper together and live together peacefully.

35:24

That's my overarching narrative. I've stayed with it

35:27

for as long as I've been in politics

35:29

and will fight for it till the day

35:31

I die. And part

35:33

of that is to say to all

35:35

of those respective groups of South Africans,

35:37

can we be joined together by values?

35:40

This value of Ubuntu, this idea that

35:42

I see you as a fellow human

35:44

being, before I see all the

35:46

any other things, I see that. And

35:48

ultimately we share common threats. If

35:51

A snake pulled in here in this

35:53

room today, the threat is common to

35:55

both of us. Therefore, how do we

35:57

unite together against that? And I'm saying

35:59

if we can share common values. and

36:01

then understand that him three priority areas

36:04

the economy, education and ultimately make you

36:06

so all citizens are safe. Those common

36:08

fears, common threats are common to all

36:10

of us and we can commit to

36:12

fighting towards those things I f and

36:14

to think this is this is why

36:16

I even in speaking to the Afrikaner

36:18

community is to the said to them

36:20

listen. My. Invitation to use not

36:23

to treat yourself. As. A separate

36:25

group or solicitous. Come

36:27

into the full South African story because

36:30

your interests. And my

36:32

interests. Maybe. Said we both

36:34

have an interest in making sure that up

36:36

or like to go to school. So so

36:38

maybe in some ways rather than also just

36:40

using all of your skills to just both

36:43

and Afrikaans university, that's what together to build

36:45

a university in the Malanga eight of his

36:47

teeth in the Northern Cape, we can achieve

36:49

that. And I think that invitation has not

36:51

come from the political leadership that we've had

36:53

in the office of the presidency. and because

36:56

we haven't had that kind of invitation to

36:58

fall of the i would do have think

37:00

and we'd like to stand up foot for

37:02

them and particular. Design. I notice every

37:04

time I drive been who that the

37:06

African A community and every time I

37:08

drive past would have to Us Air

37:10

Force base where the Gupta land as

37:12

he does that Celtic University they built

37:15

their rights which is a free forum

37:17

solid.it dates all of those people. I

37:19

don't think they did that because. They.

37:21

Thought well screw the rest to South

37:23

Africa. I think they did that because

37:25

it was evident to them. That.

37:27

The A and See had no interest

37:29

in. That. Community, it'll.

37:32

Say. Was no over to made said that that

37:34

you are going to them is probably good. Thanks

37:36

again I I got annoyed. With

37:38

you. Guys with cause because

37:40

I noticed that. You. Will

37:42

all gung ho behind lockdowns and all of

37:44

that stuff and it's gonna take me awhile

37:46

to forgive to be a of said this

37:49

to forgive you guys if I were a

37:51

single issue voter are probably and I said

37:53

this the ice p the other day. I.

37:55

Probably would be. On the side

37:57

of. Like. a devolution of powers

38:00

I could like the community leaders,

38:02

the councils to have

38:04

the most power and the national government to

38:06

have the least power. So can

38:09

you win me over on one or two of those

38:11

things? Is there something about

38:13

that that is more attractive now with the benefit

38:15

of hindsight than it was at the time or

38:17

am I still going to have issues with your power?

38:20

No, no, no, no, no. I

38:22

mean on security, you

38:25

know I've been calling for the devolution of policing

38:29

because I find it stupid that I drive

38:31

around Joburg and the Metro Police primary interest

38:33

is whether my license disc is up to

38:35

date rather than maybe if I

38:38

was carrying any ammunition in the car. Right.

38:41

So perhaps maybe we can aggregate

38:43

Metro Police, aggregate private

38:45

security companies and bring

38:47

saps and then innate them with more

38:50

intelligence to be able to fight crime.

38:53

Except it's not just exclusively that it

38:55

cannot be that because there's a lot

38:57

of cross border crime that occurs. But

38:59

I'm interested in money being devolved. I'd

39:01

like the local council to have more

39:04

of the budget. I

39:06

mean where maybe we'll find each other is

39:08

that I actually think we must, if

39:11

not scrap all provinces, reduce them significantly.

39:13

Okay, now we're talking. Because

39:15

I actually think city led government,

39:17

it actually was a function of my

39:19

master's thesis to say actually

39:21

I think cities have

39:23

a fundamental role in being able to drive

39:25

certain things and much more effectively. So I

39:28

think South Africa's governance model needs to change

39:30

in that regard. I think that provinces add

39:32

another layer, they create more

39:34

complexity and they create

39:36

more bureaucracy. So

39:38

on that score I would think hard

39:40

about how do we strengthen cities, make

39:42

them much more stronger, give them the

39:44

most capable leadership because you don't

39:47

want pools of money sitting where people are

39:49

incompetent. Because often you find, to be honest

39:51

with you, I mean

39:53

you don't experience it easily in Joburg and I know people

39:55

might look at the mayor of Joburg and Be

39:58

deeply concerned as I am. I

40:00

mean another human being I dunno I think

40:02

he's not a very good as help some

40:05

very concerned yeah ah but it gets worse

40:07

when you get to you know com did

40:09

see my new arrived there and people don't

40:11

know. Our. Financial literacy and yet

40:13

managed complicated budgets and all of that

40:15

kind of pigs of. So let's

40:17

let's focus on strengthening city

40:20

governments. I do think in

40:22

terms of powers. To. Determine,

40:24

sit and things I think. What

40:26

we learn to and covert was

40:28

the nakedness of South Africa's sailing

40:30

to think through its own country.

40:33

We kind of know. I think all

40:35

of us just as citizens, we just

40:37

ignored you politicians, thinks we didn't care

40:39

what you told us and and this

40:41

something you've gotta acknowledge about that does.

40:43

And Helen and all at other people's

40:45

talk about the capable state but we

40:47

don't have one. And once people

40:49

have felt what it's like to not have

40:51

governments and in many municipalities in this country

40:54

it's so. Rotten. And as

40:56

such, insolvency that people don't feel government

40:58

at all so they make a plan.

41:00

They. Find their own way to find

41:02

water. To. Cook.

41:05

Their food to grow. Their food. And.

41:07

Many of us have forgotten what it's like. I'm not

41:09

speaking for myself here, but I'm speaking about many South

41:12

Africans in many parts of the country. You just said

41:14

forgotten what it's like to have government and we don't

41:16

need you guys making stupid rules for us where we

41:18

don't care about your rules.that's the term. Ours was frustrated

41:20

in some ways and I don't want to. Ah,

41:24

I'm inflate, It was just twenty twenty twenty twenty

41:26

one. So at the one look at the at,

41:28

the at, at the at the period of time.

41:31

I. Wasn't. Part. Of parliament's

41:33

I can only take some of the blame of

41:35

all of the plan so if he is he

41:38

says and and during that period I spin. Those

41:40

two years we managed to raise some funds to

41:43

be able to. We distributed over one point one

41:45

million meals during that time because that was very

41:47

good and I'm glad you brought that up and

41:49

you deserve credit for that. But what I'd like

41:52

is just a A we should Nicholas The Schools.

41:56

And sit. this. One of the

41:58

things. I mean, I'm I'm in the. What

42:04

I think you are also saying though Gareth and I

42:07

think it's an important point and this is what I

42:09

want to learn. I don't

42:11

think you get it right all the time. I think as a

42:13

leader at

42:16

first when you're getting imperfect

42:18

information and imperfect science as you

42:20

have to make decisions as a

42:23

leader maybe about

42:25

closures or about shutdowns, maybe

42:27

at first you go with conventional wisdom

42:31

that you've learned. I

42:33

wish that maybe two or three months

42:35

into the journey we would have been

42:37

able to stop and say maybe this is not practicable

42:40

for us and we were wrong

42:42

and be willing to say that to citizens. And

42:44

I think citizens would be willing to accept

42:48

a political leadership that's also honest about

42:50

saying we get something is wrong. And

42:53

I wish,

42:57

I pray that one day when

43:00

we in the office of president

43:02

would have the guts to look citizens in the

43:04

eye and say I was wrong. You

43:09

know so one of the things we

43:11

do know about what happened

43:13

with COVID is it's also about the

43:15

money that you take. There's

43:18

lots of conversations currently happening

43:20

in the electorate about

43:23

who pays for what and who pays

43:25

the piper calls

43:27

the tune. Your

43:30

fundraising and some

43:32

of the people that you have declared as

43:36

people who have donated to your party,

43:39

you share fundraisers, you

43:42

share funders and funders with

43:46

three parties, with the DA, with

43:48

Action SA and Summer Thrive. Does

43:52

that mean that you have similar aspirations

43:57

and that your funders are able to save the

44:00

to these other areas we would want

44:02

you to concentrate on. Citizens

44:06

sometimes find this hard to believe, but

44:09

I'm willing to even have a forensic

44:13

done on my phone. There

44:17

has never, at least of

44:19

any of the donors that you speak

44:21

about, who have post facto

44:23

called me up and said,

44:26

you'll take this position on this issue or you'll

44:28

do this on this issue. I

44:31

raised money even for the

44:33

DA. I raised money for that, always

44:35

with the understanding that you're

44:38

funding and solving for democracy rather

44:40

than trying to dictate policy. I

44:43

think often, naturally,

44:48

when people connect with your values as a

44:50

leader, you're not going to

44:52

find a demagogue if you're

44:54

someone. You're not going to find someone who's

44:56

nuts. You're going to look

44:58

broadly and say, do I connect with this guy's values?

45:01

Are they honest? Are they going to?

45:03

Let me use someone who personally

45:05

has been out, someone like

45:07

Martin Marshall. Actually,

45:09

I'm grateful that Martin funds democracy because,

45:12

to be honest with you, funding

45:16

is a hard game. And there

45:18

are few people who are actually willing to do it because

45:21

everyone lives with this, oh,

45:23

no, we mustn't get involved with politics. We

45:25

must hide. And actually,

45:28

people like Martin, you

45:30

can be critical of his own faith. You can

45:33

be critical of his own background. But

45:35

I can tell you, as night follows days, Martin has

45:37

never called me up and said, you

45:39

will work with these people. You'll agree on that

45:41

policy, et cetera. Martin and I

45:44

connect on values, and he helps

45:46

fund our project, and it helps us

45:49

fight for the things we want to fight for. So

45:53

yeah, and I think it's a hopeful thing

45:55

that the IEC has asked for declarations to

45:57

come on board. Yeah, I think that's

45:59

good, right? But I want

46:01

to encourage more South Africans. They are just way

46:03

too, you know, when you look at the funding

46:05

pool, people who can give you money,

46:09

a few in this country, to be honest with you,

46:11

they are very few. And actually,

46:14

if it wasn't for those people who had the

46:16

courage to face the ANC and says I'm

46:19

willing to fund the opposition, when so many

46:21

people are willing to acquiesce to the government

46:23

because they fear, they cow cow, they say,

46:25

well, if we don't fund the ANC and

46:28

we fund the opposition, our tenders get cancelled, etc.,

46:30

etc. Come on, man. Let's

46:32

rather than make demonizing as what

46:34

Twitter and so many other places

46:36

do, demonize people who at least

46:38

put their skin in the game,

46:41

as it were, to the opposition

46:43

game, rather than demonizing them, there's

46:45

a dynamic of me that wants to say I'm grateful for

46:47

those South Africans because had they not been there, I

46:49

can promise you now, you drive down this street,

46:52

half of the posters you see to

46:54

flight a poster is 50 rand per

46:56

poster. It's just in real numbers.

46:59

The ANC will flight 1.1 million posters. The

47:02

EFF will do nearly the same. Both

47:05

those two parties have not declared who they're funding, right?

47:08

But I have to nearly

47:10

flight maybe 300,000, etc., etc.,

47:12

and declare up front who are the people who

47:14

have funded me. And those

47:16

people have never asked me for policy direction. Instead,

47:19

they wanted me to have a fair chance of

47:21

competing in this electorate. So to me, I'm

47:23

grateful for South Africans who are willing to stick

47:25

it out and fight the fire,

47:28

but we mustn't demonize them. I think that it's

47:30

a dangerous play when we do that to people

47:33

who are actually interested in democracy. We

47:35

mustn't think every fund has a Gupta. It's

47:38

a flaw. We mustn't think

47:40

anyone just wants to amass state contracts. It

47:42

doesn't work like that. And

47:44

I can sit with anyone if you want to run

47:46

a test, you want to do whatever. I'll sit with

47:48

anyone and demonstrate that to you because there's never been

47:51

a time where I've had donors come back

47:53

to me and say, well, this is the

47:55

position you must take. How

47:58

has all of this impacted you? think his

48:00

campaigning is now in high gear. So you're all

48:02

over the place, you're working hard, sleepless nights, having

48:05

to visit people, talk to communities, kiss babies,

48:07

all that stuff. How's

48:10

this impacting on wife and kids and the

48:12

rest of your life or is it all

48:14

on hold? My

48:16

wife has given this mantra to our kids,

48:18

we see daddy when we see daddy. But

48:22

you know from the day my first child was

48:24

born, she arrived back in hospital and in three

48:26

days I was campaigning for mayor in 2011. So

48:29

some ways they are kind of used to

48:31

the election cycle. We've

48:34

kind of as a family made it

48:36

our mission. And I know it

48:38

sounds polyannarish. If you picked up the phone

48:40

and said what are we trying

48:42

to do as a family? I

48:46

think we try and go, well we're trying to

48:48

make this place a better place for all of

48:50

us and we're all invested, right? When you've got

48:52

little kids in this country you know whether it's

48:54

COVID or whether it's whatever

48:56

decisions, it sits at home.

48:58

I got COVID and I had to rely

49:01

on what the healthcare in this country needed

49:03

to tell me about what I needed to do

49:05

for COVID. So

49:08

any decision, any choice you make is

49:10

impactful. That's why if there's a plug

49:12

for appointing leaders that at least are

49:14

younger, is that

49:16

the decisions they make are going to impact

49:18

their lives and their livelihoods. So when

49:21

we appoint 80-year-olds in some ways they are

49:23

past that point and they're thinking about other

49:25

things. So it's been tricky. So

49:27

the speaking of plugs for younger

49:29

people, it's beyond the time of

49:31

getting them to go out and register

49:34

to vote. But

49:36

those that are registered, and it is a

49:38

small number, although we do have this year,

49:40

the highest number of young

49:43

people, people who

49:45

haven't experienced apartheid ever

49:47

before, eligible

49:49

to vote and registered to vote

49:52

in this election. What

49:54

would your message be to them to

49:57

excite them to come out and

49:59

vote for BOSA? I

50:03

mean, I'd say to them, this is not just their future,

50:05

it's about their today, right? And

50:07

I would tell young

50:09

people to say, who

50:11

you elect will determine

50:15

what the cost of your Internet is,

50:17

what job you find, what schools you live

50:20

in, what,

50:23

what, how safe your communities are. And

50:26

I'm saying to them that fair

50:28

enough, I'm not

50:30

perfect, I've made my fair share of mistakes,

50:33

and I've had my fair share of successes. I've

50:35

hustled in this country in the same way as many of

50:38

them wake up every day to do, because

50:40

I wasn't born in some silver spoon

50:42

and when I left parliament I was

50:44

as unemployed as anyone else. So

50:48

I acknowledge their hustle culture and

50:50

I want to partner with them to make

50:52

this country gate because young people, young people

50:54

hold the key in a continent like Africa

50:56

where the median age is 23. And

50:59

I think in the same way as we took a

51:02

view as a generation

51:04

to say, we must

51:06

reject all of apartheid, I think

51:08

now is the time to take a similar view

51:10

to say, let's reject what is going on with

51:12

ANC and choose a different tomorrow. So my invitation

51:15

to young people is that you

51:17

can swing these elections. Having

51:20

Bosa in the room, there are

51:23

only five people who will decide where this country goes

51:25

in some ways because of

51:27

favourability and what happens. You've got Cyril,

51:29

you've got Julius, you've got me, you've

51:32

got Jacob and

51:35

you've got Helen. I think that's the

51:37

five favourability issues. Put

51:40

him... I know. Did

51:43

you hear that shade? The shade.

51:46

So put me in the room so that I

51:49

can make decisions that will

51:51

serve your interest best. And

51:54

I think even to their parents, I

51:57

often ask them, I often ask people who voted

51:59

for and everyone says, I never

52:01

voted for apartheid. There's no apartheid voters by the

52:03

way. They don't exist anymore. They say everyone denies

52:05

it. You can't even find someone who voted no

52:08

in the referendum. Your parents weren't

52:10

allowed to vote. And I tell people to

52:12

say that there will come a day where

52:14

there'll be no ANC voters because they'll all

52:17

deny it when we don't have water, electricity,

52:19

etc. So let's vote to

52:21

express our hopes rather than think

52:24

that status quo is normal. It's

52:26

completely abnormal. All

52:29

right. Just the final thing we

52:31

always say good luck. And I hope it

52:33

goes well. If

52:35

you end up with like 10 seats or whatever,

52:37

20 seats, you've got

52:39

enough people, good people to deploy

52:41

at this point, because I know you've been recruiting and

52:43

you've brought in all these other parties. You've got

52:46

200 and foot. How many signatures did you

52:48

get? You got enough to full heart

52:50

the parliament. Did Julius take your bait? Is he

52:52

coming to inspect your signatures? Yeah. I asked him

52:54

just to bring just a statement as to who funded

52:57

their rally because I'm not certain there are enough cigarettes to

52:59

fund that entire thing. There's

53:02

a lot of shade being thrown. You

53:04

can't say, Muzi, my money has not

53:07

been exciting this morning. No, I look,

53:09

this election, no one knows. To

53:12

me, a million votes are up to

53:14

grabs, two million votes are up for grabs. And

53:16

South Africans asked for the first time,

53:19

considering not doing what they've always done, which excites

53:22

me about this election for the first time. So

53:24

I'm telling them that if you

53:26

want the choice that works for South Africans, both

53:28

sides, the thing, don't just go

53:30

there to express your race or your faith.

53:33

Go there to express your. One quick

53:35

thing. You can't have the

53:37

black background on your posters with

53:41

a black man on it. I mean, it's

53:43

like you're melting into the background here. I

53:46

hear you. And the new ones have

53:50

got a new one. That

53:52

was again, one of these things

53:55

that sometimes you don't get right. They look great on Instagram, but

53:57

they may not always on the street. And on screens and on

53:59

the screen. Looks good air on a subject

54:01

but but but the new ones are coming out

54:03

with people of the to be the post the

54:05

game because pastas are boring right leg and the

54:08

little bit bored sounds so school so. I did.

54:10

You Do them. If why do you had

54:12

it in South Africa? That says it's because when

54:14

will you don't bother to? I don't think so.

54:16

Like advice. Of

54:18

you what is the Do Nothing as a A. Know

54:21

people people people people are gonna have a walk to

54:24

the forties. they since they need to look at the

54:26

polls and know you i in the game. And.

54:29

Post titles if you're interested in.

54:31

What? What neighborhood you get? What

54:33

posters? Does. Is some interesting stuff

54:35

What's happening? Do a neighborhood. A

54:38

Mother As it's in in. Case ah

54:40

in people's the Z number two

54:42

neighborhoods. Doubt that a the as

54:44

frequent as you'll have to return

54:46

a hobby as a business between

54:48

miles. And Rose Bank which is where I work

54:50

as. The. The booth supposed

54:53

as dismayed that the growth think A

54:55

and then these the. The.

54:57

Well trodden path to my mother's

54:59

house and they i go past

55:02

a adult has the hustle cycle

55:04

has two hostiles to get from

55:06

a distance and I seen. Lots

55:09

of Mk posters, I.

55:11

See do it for saying

55:13

that Will see a pizza

55:15

crust. The seaweed and ice

55:17

tea sets him this and.

55:20

Said. It's it's fascinating and I told you that

55:22

if I drove past that the board let's sit

55:24

down the a one more. Love the. Towards.

55:27

The him to with all the as he

55:29

has his post as but they're not anymore

55:31

the i think they slew. Of that's know

55:33

the witness the the police books from

55:35

went on denial a similar allowed to

55:37

post on them with our allies. This

55:39

list allen to as discuss in and

55:42

we're ending that with were little bit

55:44

over the time you'll consisting in all

55:46

nine provinces and who had the people

55:48

you've got into provinces. What? You

55:50

mean by the upcoming candle? Yeah, Loyal. Candid. as

55:52

as the Provinces cause. you're not on is a

55:54

yes or in in case it in a premier kinda

55:57

the days ago couldn't or was or be a

55:59

lab highlight them because he

56:01

comes from I used

56:03

to be an executive at Unilever, he's worked in

56:05

micro enterprise so those are the kind of people.

56:08

He's gonna have a tough job because president is

56:10

the most. Wow that's wild. But again it's that

56:13

kingmaker status right like to me this election

56:15

is not about choosing old parties

56:18

it's about deciding who's gonna hold the

56:20

margins and that's why cool that's important.

56:22

In Hauteng you've got Nobunto you know

56:24

her. In the

56:26

Western Cape you've got a young woman called

56:29

Lumka and a number of others she's a

56:31

phenomenal business executive she's come on board

56:34

from there. In the Eastern

56:36

Cape you've got an ex-business guy who

56:38

used to funny enough work within the

56:40

NCU Mark Hoba in Limpopo. We've

56:43

got a young guy called Timothy and

56:45

a number of key candidates who have

56:47

come out of communities have been working there

56:49

he's been a political activist. In the

56:51

free state you've got a doctoral a Dr.

56:53

Diseco who's worked in academia

56:56

has lectured and is an incredible

56:58

incredible South African in the Northern

57:00

Cape you've got an ex-teacher a

57:03

woman called Milly who who's

57:05

now fighting sex offenders in that in that

57:07

community and so she's a she's

57:09

an activist. So I can take you

57:11

province by province there's phenomenal talent we've

57:14

got ambassadors we've got South

57:16

Africans who have been in business we've been in politics.

57:19

I really have been in politics for long enough this

57:21

is probably one of the best caucuses I've ever had

57:23

to work with. And the provincial

57:25

elections where do you think you're going to

57:28

do the best? Yeah look how dang

57:30

is the game naturally

57:32

because 13 million votes has reside

57:34

here and that's an important proportion

57:36

of the votes. The recent polls

57:38

have showed us that we're growing

57:40

quite significantly even in KZN despite

57:42

the confusion of MK and all

57:44

of that keep in mind that

57:47

Phoenix and Chatsworth aren't always aligned

57:49

in that space and we've got some interesting

57:51

candidates who come from those communities. The

57:53

Western Cape is an interesting place because Cape

57:55

Town if there's ever a tale of two

57:57

cities is that so if you go to

57:59

Kukulei Kukule to Kylie Chalanga,

58:02

that whole community. And Laleh

58:04

Lebanchalee, Logu Chumas, he's the western Cape

58:06

Hallou. And Laleh... Ay, yas, heh, heh, ma'ak

58:09

jinne gach. Yes. So, so, so, so, so,

58:11

so, so, so, now we just

58:13

try to sit on the margins. And

58:15

it's interesting, when you go to

58:17

places like Beaufort West, etc., and

58:20

the Karoo, we've got some interesting

58:22

developments that are taking place there. And then lastly, I

58:24

think Limpopo in the eastern Cape. So those are the

58:26

two major problems. OK. All right, listen,

58:28

good luck. Good luck. And we will, we

58:30

will see you on Election Day. Yeah, well... Good

58:33

stuff. Vote. We'll see my money. Very nice

58:35

to have you here. Thank you,

58:37

everybody. That is the burning platform for this

58:39

morning. And the Real Network continues

58:41

with plenty of good stuff through the course of

58:43

the rest of this week. We'll be back tomorrow

58:45

morning at 6am. Don't

58:48

miss it. Thanks, Pums. you

1:00:30

you you