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slows. Full terms at mintmobile.com. Hello!

0:55

And welcome to the Game for the

0:57

podcast. The times today were asking a

0:59

question which is baffling. Fans am philosophers

1:01

across the land. Are Chelsea

1:03

actually quite good? Will also find out which

1:06

of today's guess. went on a special bank

1:08

holiday road trip together. I once again be

1:10

begging someone to tell me that Manchester City

1:12

might just drop some points in the final

1:15

weeks of the season and will take a

1:17

look at the bottom of the Premier League

1:19

table and the top of the Championship to

1:21

adjoining mates on clock. For all of that,

1:24

we have Football writer and Sunday Times columnist

1:26

Alison wrote. A former footballer

1:28

who scored nineteen goals for island,

1:31

including doubles against Tunisia, Macedonia, Liechtenstein,

1:33

and Lithuania. It's. Tiny category Know.

1:36

And. Another former footballer who was

1:38

described by Scotland Under Twenty One coach

1:40

Raina Bahnhof as a solid left back.

1:43

There can play various roles in defense.

1:45

Bahnhof. Went on to say that

1:48

this player was tall, strong, and

1:50

very powerful. I think he

1:52

has a very big future at this

1:54

level. Gregor. Robertson. What?

1:57

Went wrong. either good

1:59

or to me I'm sitting here now, listen

2:01

to you take the piss. I'm

2:05

not taking the piss, it's a

2:07

wonderful highlights reel of your magnificent

2:09

story career. It

2:12

was nice to hear that from Bonoff, he won the World Cup at 22 either.

2:15

Tall, strong and very powerful. Nothing

2:18

about technique or talent or law or anything like

2:20

that. I think he had a bit of

2:22

a crush on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, things like that.

2:24

Seriously. No, normally most managers you've got the kind of

2:26

like, you can play various roles across the defence. That's

2:28

that, you know, if you feel that a dating profile

2:31

when you're a football. If you had to

2:33

convert me to three and a half, I think that was probably the start

2:35

of it. Never mind. Anyway, we're nearly

2:37

there. The sixth of May, we've

2:40

nearly done it. I can't wait. Really in the

2:42

archives now. Anyway, to Anfield and another crazy game

2:44

for Jovan Klopp in his final season. And

2:46

we're going to come on to Liverpool and that

2:48

crazy game and two people who are there for

2:51

a very special reason. But I wanted to start

2:53

with Spurs, just to talk about some

2:55

football, you know, before we get into some of the nonsense of

2:57

the day. Alison and Tony, you were both there and I'm going

2:59

to get on to that reason later. But

3:02

I wanted to look

3:04

at the idea of Tottenham season and

3:06

the way it's going. And, you know, there's

3:09

always this suspicion with Ange that it might

3:11

end up this way. You

3:14

have these kind of press conferences after games

3:16

against Arsenal where he talks about how I'm not bothered about

3:18

the corners. I know I should be. And

3:21

then conceived against Chelsea from

3:23

corners and then get pulled apart by

3:25

Liverpool yesterday. Alison,

3:27

what did you make of watching this Tottenham

3:30

team yesterday? Did it look like a

3:32

team that were just tired? Are they

3:34

kind of finding the limitations or is it a

3:36

little bit more worrying than that? The

3:38

latter. It was interesting because I was

3:41

sat amongst all the

3:43

Merseyside reporters. You don't get

3:45

to see much of Spurs. Don't

3:48

see them as often as I do, for example. And

3:50

they were looking at me and going, what's that?

3:53

What are they doing? What the hell is that about? They

3:56

were completely unimpressed and felt

3:58

he was busted flat. and Poster

4:00

Cogloo. There was not that. I

4:03

think we convey it on

4:05

this podcast quite often. There's a

4:07

sort of almost a love for him

4:09

and his refreshing attitude and the way he

4:11

is uncompromising,

4:13

but none of that held

4:16

any sway with the

4:19

reporters on Merseyside. They just thought it was very

4:22

messy football, naive football,

4:26

no pattern to it, no

4:28

real energy. People

4:30

were shouting at things like, is

4:33

Emerson actually running away from the ball? What's he doing

4:35

that for? I think

4:37

in some ways it's quite refreshing to hear that

4:40

view of it because when you see a lot of

4:42

them and you hear

4:44

a lot of Ann talking, I think

4:47

you're lulled into this sense of, oh,

4:49

he's got a bigger picture. He

4:52

is a maestro and there are going to be dips

4:55

and he warned us there would be

4:57

dips and he wouldn't tweak

4:59

his methods. You take me as I

5:02

am and the football I want, but

5:04

there was an

5:07

advertisement of where he's going to

5:09

go to turn up at Anfield

5:11

and play in a vaguely

5:14

attacking sense some of the time, but

5:16

not bother defending very much at all.

5:19

Where did he think he was going? It wasn't

5:23

a cup game against someone from the two, it was

5:25

a very strange approach. Yes, you're right

5:27

Tom, there was a lack of energy, but energy,

5:31

I don't think it counts as an excuse at this

5:33

stage of the season. He's got most of his players

5:35

back, he did have injuries were a problem,

5:37

but every team's played the same number

5:40

of games. His team have played less than anyone else because

5:42

they were not in Europe, so it's

5:44

not an excuse that they're a

5:46

bit tired. It looked like a very

5:48

flawed experiment that might be coming to an end.

5:51

Interesting. Tony, what about you? What did you make of

5:53

Tottenham? Well, I watched

5:55

them at Chelsea as well on Thursday night, I was

5:57

at the game at the bridge. and

6:01

Alison used the word they're flawed and

6:04

it's quite easy to be lazy in this

6:06

game and be just generally go over there

6:08

busted flush you know they've been found out

6:10

lazy explanations I

6:13

saw an astonishing amount of play that

6:15

was just really

6:18

weird to watch positions of players

6:21

that I don't like

6:23

take Emerson Royale and it's not having a go against

6:25

him here he's a right back that plays left back

6:28

for Spurs he's

6:31

on a one-on-one he's been left with Mo Salah

6:33

but he keeps tucking in higher up the pitch

6:35

which leaves Mo Salah quite free a

6:37

lot of the time but

6:39

also whoever

6:41

was playing left wing because it changed

6:43

you obviously it was Son in the

6:46

second half and and in the first

6:48

half of his Brandon Johnson and he

6:50

came up against Trent as well but

6:52

they didn't help Emerson

6:55

Royale when they didn't have the ball so

6:57

Emerson Royale was faced with Trent in front

6:59

of him and Salah on the outside and

7:01

then running in behind him and by the

7:03

way Harvey Elliott was running in the hole

7:05

just between the two center halves and Emerson

7:07

Royale was literally three against one I'm thinking

7:10

yeah he might be having a difficult time

7:12

and he might not be a right back

7:14

but better this job that he's getting

7:17

Liverpool attack was right side

7:19

right side right side every

7:21

time and not once did I

7:23

see pasta coglio change it

7:25

to give him some help yeah and people

7:27

might point the finger at his performance he

7:29

didn't play well but I thought boy

7:32

you've got some job you got Trent who's

7:34

a very gifted player on the ball as

7:36

well and you give him freedom and he

7:38

can get his head up you're in trouble

7:40

and that was the thing I couldn't get

7:42

because the flawed idea is you're letting players

7:45

of the highest technique lift their

7:47

head up and find a pass yeah in their

7:49

system Greg Robertson founding member of

7:51

the and pasta coglio will not change fan

7:54

club what Was your response to

7:56

those bits of analysis from your colleagues? The

7:58

thing that struck me over this. We.

8:00

Can this you know that those care of

8:02

again ramped up a new questions of a

8:05

suture which I think I wildly. Over.

8:07

The top and premature am.

8:10

As. The. Week. We.

8:13

Can have we could say someone

8:15

for been on an absolute dogmatists.

8:18

and then because i someone like get it in

8:20

hug from. Been. A pragmatist

8:22

and of a know i'm an identity

8:24

was his idea was identities are clearly

8:26

there's a middle ground, but. As

8:29

post hope this isn't interested in the middle

8:31

don't and I think we just have to

8:33

accept that. Like. I don't think there's

8:35

any point in criticism for it because this is

8:38

the way it's gonna be a think what he

8:40

he ultimately will see as we need to. Get.

8:43

The point where we can do a better and

8:45

I I completely agree with a lot of things

8:47

you either see and than agree. That's. Constantly.

8:49

Invite in their opposition. but the clear theme

8:52

like Liverpool to press year and then and

8:54

your own third unlikely over and can of.

8:56

I mean it is like an anathema to

8:58

me watching as as as a flew back

9:01

and assess so many tell you occasional Cena

9:03

hosts play all the all powerful. we're excited

9:05

to do that. Trying to do that at

9:08

the only only fully kinda V composer I

9:10

could draw for Michael Cuddyer this when I

9:12

was just started not in for us. we

9:14

pull hot was amount of meals. play the

9:17

Diamonds by an Uncle Buck and who Bucks.

9:19

Will only bourgeois for the woods and everything

9:21

the goalkeeper are more to could go the

9:23

both. Everyone, every

9:26

opponent knew. That. He was

9:28

gonna ping at the the the right back of the less.

9:30

Like everyone knew it. And. We still did it.

9:32

So. Every time the mole was com it's saw it

9:34

on to my chest. The very good at it that

9:36

was at least one player goes and we don't like.

9:39

As normal for starts then like already

9:42

challenging before so this is what they're

9:44

dealing with overtaken by against Liverpool and

9:46

against a team like the are so

9:48

dynamic in an ill the their. Identity.

9:51

As basics and they still didn't like

9:53

at. other was as

9:55

the lead my a chemist the still something about me

9:58

admires it and and the think I

10:00

think we can easily forget

10:03

too quickly and easily what has

10:05

happened beforehand. And we know there's

10:07

that stat about the points all

10:10

from the first 35 games, 60 points, Klopp's

10:12

was 58, Arteta's was 50. Let's

10:16

not forget everything that made Spurs so exciting

10:18

and sort of new because of

10:20

the last four games. Well that's what I was going to

10:22

come onto is this idea and links to what Tony's point

10:24

about Emerson, Real and those managers, Greco. Is it the case

10:26

that this is the start of a

10:28

potentially long journey and that he needs the

10:30

time and potentially the investment to change the

10:33

players? And so

10:35

that was going to come onto an idea that watching

10:37

yesterday's game, is this the ultimate idea of that

10:40

this Tottenham team only has a certain

10:42

number of players who will be Anj post

10:44

a cognitive players long term, Tony? Yeah, to

10:47

a degree, but I can't help thinking and

10:50

now we're both there together watching it. That

10:53

game was so close to being six, seven.

10:55

There was chances galore. We're not talking about

10:58

Liverpool taking four opportunities in a game.

11:00

We're talking about Liverpool missing 10 great

11:02

chances. Really? Which there was

11:04

that wasn't it? Absolutely. It was

11:06

like it was literally one attack after another. And

11:08

Liverpool's finishing wasn't particularly great. I

11:11

don't know how you can think, even

11:14

with the highest technical players, that you can

11:16

be so brave in a style. So you

11:18

don't think even if he had Manchester City

11:20

squad and he was playing that way, it

11:22

still would have Liverpool still would have had

11:24

a load of chances. Well, I still think it's disjointed and

11:26

quite disorganized. It's you know, Manchester City is an

11:29

attack. They've always had an attack minded team. So

11:31

have Liverpool, you know, and I've seen attack minded

11:33

size like Manchester United at their very best and

11:35

I was on Vengas Arsenal, but

11:38

they were still organized in the way

11:40

they played. That wasn't

11:43

I'm watching yesterday. I'm thinking, wow,

11:45

this team are giving chances between

11:47

10 and 15 every game of

11:49

you're just doing data on numbers

11:51

of chances. You cannot win football

11:53

matches. No team

11:56

is conceded, seeded possession more

11:58

than Their own third and first. they've done it again

12:01

and have given up seven goals of as as a

12:03

result are thrown. His antics probably be more. This

12:07

the past month rather see a thing is gonna

12:09

what they is going to get a point we

12:11

he does it better I always and think is

12:13

worth asking colleagues who support these teams So the

12:15

views before coming on show. My colleague Nicky's on

12:18

the had seen desk as a spare season ticket

12:20

and he suggested about this kind of that players

12:22

know being good enough That is an interesting conversation

12:24

we had around some human in this team said

12:26

Pasta Coakley. In. Relation to this I don't

12:29

like of my boy echoes much. Wheels of the

12:31

Hook repairs are good enough to do this. Okay,

12:33

so I asking them to death. Yeah, so why

12:35

you ask him to get my second point is

12:37

that he said most gifted technical pie. Madison.

12:40

At the same. Since. The pair

12:42

that can keep the ball better than anybody else

12:44

is no in the starting line on the game

12:47

changed in the last core of the game because

12:49

nipples, substitutions or backboard, it's up and impose them.

12:51

Yeah well that was next point as well as

12:53

that. They look much better when Rich House and

12:55

came on because they had a focal point in

12:57

attack on a number nine and that saddam when

12:59

on the Nes on but some maybe as a

13:02

wide player who needs to stay wide in this

13:04

post could be system doesn't quite fit. I mean

13:06

it's of Isabel Com and he wasn't suggesting always

13:08

time to sell Sunken Mint. Bet this that it's

13:10

one of the challenges that boss. Congolese Gov.

13:12

Greg. Yet he said that

13:14

he's not going to be shy about moving on.

13:17

Like. Players as he has to discuss for the betterment

13:19

of the. Theme. Of the whole the

13:21

afghan of years Allison said on. Play

13:24

tumultuous season is it only real recognize

13:26

strike as soon as was. That was

13:28

all decent. Pair of the left am.

13:32

Glad. He's

13:34

got at Tottenham supporting friend he would

13:36

like some to move on. He wouldn't

13:38

like songs, move on he just thinks as an

13:40

interesting conversation to be had around that on a

13:42

whim. Of way of saying I think. The know, he

13:44

doesn't. He doesn't. He's got such data. I promised me

13:47

that unless. Something's think on the ice and. Some

13:49

miss the didn't say that boats

13:51

just whether there's a point about

13:53

Scotland's close, not being good enough

13:56

to play this this. I

13:58

I'm not good enough for the full backs. right?

14:00

Yeah I think the idea of he needs

14:02

his soul and poor and and the system

14:04

the full bucks and the landed on one

14:06

with the doggies been brilliant. They do portal

14:08

as exceeded. Sell. The my expectations

14:10

like. By. A million percent or stories

14:13

awful. Ah, season A thought that to move

14:15

more than be eating the sale for the

14:17

team. you mean you don't have to defend

14:19

too much and is is excellent. Stephen Mcneil,

14:21

a. Bit of the

14:23

needs. Competition. Certainly.

14:26

Cover but competition for full bus because what

14:28

was was behind them as nowhere near good

14:30

enough like Royal in the right in the

14:32

remained on the left is nowhere near good

14:34

enough to play in the not many people

14:37

will be. Us. To play it

14:39

like as a number ten at things and

14:41

be the full back and like Vincent de

14:43

Be the winner as as ridiculous some the

14:45

so white husky of a few bucks and

14:48

the seems to sell a house and again

14:50

behind romero and been then as a massive

14:52

drop off so they need to back up

14:54

Ah Mallika the rest the team as thought

14:56

saw has the the been players who. For

15:00

season season after season for Spurs have shown

15:02

glimpses are played well for and patches and

15:04

of not sustain the and but they were

15:06

probably seen about that again. Specimens start the

15:08

season outstandingly and then you know he had

15:10

he was sent off and suspended than any

15:12

was away and he says not been anywhere

15:14

near that Sars dropped off of as well

15:16

as that. A really good stuff. So the

15:18

question marks about their surf. You to

15:20

billie through the campaign but there's Duke of Vivid

15:23

living. Great place on the sees us have been

15:25

to choose a really good with a little things.

15:27

I think it's like the debts. More

15:29

than anything that they really need to. Because

15:32

when when they've lost theirs, when the last,

15:34

Remember when the last Madison as to steal

15:36

this season. right? Let's gowns little

15:38

drawer else in return and of a hissy

15:40

fit about Tottenham right to question Cause that's

15:42

what we rarely wanna talk about. Forget Coogan

15:44

and Bride and it's all about a rail

15:46

road trip that happened this weekend. Category know

15:48

and road. drove all

15:51

the way up there together friends

15:53

didn't share the driving for a

15:55

slide over and ago and were

15:57

us address the digs have begun

15:59

at us Yeah, even your body language

16:01

is the one you're like sat too far apart

16:03

I actually sort of sat you on opposite sides

16:05

of the desk shouldn't I now? Alison

16:07

or Tony would you like to tell us the reason for this

16:10

feature before we then get into

16:12

the details? Why why were you both going

16:14

to Liverpool together for a feature? What's the

16:16

idea behind this? Actually,

16:19

so there's there's the fact that Tony

16:23

Pested the desk every 10 minutes for the

16:25

past I can confirm that Since

16:27

his clock and that's his retirement Tony

16:30

felt that he'd just love to go to

16:33

Anfield before it was the end of the clock era

16:36

And if possible to get in the press conference and ask

16:38

him a question Because once

16:40

he's gone he's gone. You won't get a chance to do that and

16:43

it made sense for Tony

16:46

I together were both Liverpool fans and We

16:50

found out and you used to get on really

16:52

well before the road People we always got on

16:54

incredibly well and always and and

16:58

Our first ever game and feel we

17:00

didn't go together but was the

17:02

same game It was the 7-0 in 1978 against Spurs And

17:06

so the game that we get a pass for for Tony

17:08

to come as well as you know We get an extra

17:10

pass was against Spurs. So

17:12

we were both convinced it was going to be 7-0 And

17:19

Weirdly our favorite Liverpool goal is

17:21

the same Liverpool goal Which was

17:23

the seventh goal scored in that

17:25

7-0 in 1978 school by Terry

17:27

McDermott and we spent we spent

17:30

from 9 30 till Quarter

17:34

to midnight I'm

17:37

13 the morning till quarter to midnight

17:39

yesterday in each other's company and it

17:41

was only when I bumped into Tony

17:43

on the Escalator coming

17:45

out of the tube this morning

17:47

that Tony says oh I'll

17:50

start in front of Terry McDermott and had a nice

17:52

chat with him. He didn't even think

17:55

to mention it I'm going to

17:57

be writing this up for the paper. He didn't

17:59

even mention it at the time or

18:01

in the car ride afterwards. Oh my

18:03

God! And you'd driven him all the

18:05

way there in that because there were no trains. So

18:08

forget the football. What I want to know

18:10

is what were the snacks? Snacks? Good chat

18:12

about music apparently? Politics? Okay,

18:15

the test of whether it was a successful road trip

18:17

or not. Oh God, I'm worried for Tony here. Tony

18:20

Cascuino, can you guess what

18:22

album I played when I was washing my

18:24

hair this morning? What?

18:27

Talking book or In the Visions? Which

18:29

one Tony? Probably In the Vision. Yeah, well

18:31

done. It was a successful road trip. And that

18:33

is, I didn't know. Thank God, honestly I was tenting there. Me and

18:35

Greg were like, oh my God, the whole podcast is going to fall

18:37

down here. But Tony, you had a lovely day by the time. Yeah,

18:44

we had good fun. It

18:48

was an idea that I put to James,

18:51

his sports editor, and I

18:53

just wanted to see Klopp and I knew I was

18:56

going to get a question and I was battling away,

18:58

which I'm only getting one shot at this, one

19:01

bullet. And I kept thinking, well,

19:03

I've got to watch the game because it

19:05

may be game related. But I wanted a

19:07

deeper question, which was more about

19:10

what does it take to be the Liverpool manager?

19:13

And he gave a really long reply to that,

19:15

which was really interesting because I was thinking, I'm

19:17

going to ask this question. He might just go

19:20

one word answer or two or three words and that

19:23

would be it. But he didn't, did he Al? No,

19:25

it was a lovely answer. Yeah, he went quite

19:27

in depth about Liverpool. But

19:31

yeah, look, it's

19:34

strange you're going to, what

19:36

I clearly didn't want is a piece that

19:38

I'm gushing about everything about Liverpool. What a

19:40

wonderful place it is, even though I think

19:42

that. Yeah, yeah, we have enough of that.

19:45

Yeah, you know, so I wanted to go

19:47

there, but also give a perspective from being

19:49

that fan that went in 78. Yeah,

19:51

the same game as Al said, talking about

19:54

the car journey was hilarious, really, because

19:57

I kept bringing up different subjects, thinking.

20:00

political. We went music

20:02

didn't we? I think we had a food

20:04

one as well. Would you say you're better

20:06

pals now or than before the road trip?

20:09

Because you've known each other a long time

20:11

and worked together but you know. I

20:13

got a length of a road trip. I can't

20:15

believe I got that out of my mouth. No

20:19

it's easy without, it's easy to

20:21

do stuff because she's incredibly

20:24

knowledgeable on many subjects. Sometimes I get

20:26

a bit embarrassed because I feel like

20:28

she's more clever than me. Which

20:31

everybody probably does anyway. It's a good

20:33

problem. Well you can find

20:36

out Jurgen Klopp's exact answer to Tony Cascarino's question when Alison

20:38

writes up this feature which you can read on the Times

20:40

website and in the paper this week. But

20:42

actually talking about the football, one play I wanted to

20:44

talk about which Tony you briefly mentioned, Harvey Elliott. It

20:47

feels like to me it's been a very good

20:49

season with him but slightly unnecessarily

20:52

stuttering I would say. It's

20:54

like to me whenever I watch him this guy looks the

20:56

absolute real deal. Why isn't

20:58

he in the team every week? Most of them. You

21:01

don't think they can play together? Well it

21:03

can play, you know Klopp has used him

21:05

slightly different positions but generally he loves that

21:07

right side. You know he loves to come

21:09

off that side and when we cut him

21:12

side with the ball like he did for

21:14

the goal yesterday. I think he's been

21:16

the one that's staying that figure for Liverpool this year because

21:19

you know he started the season in and out and

21:21

when he was called upon he'd come off the bench.

21:24

And he'd do something and I remember him coming on the

21:26

Crystal Palace and changing the game, the outcome by his

21:29

performance. A lot

21:31

of other talk was about other youngsters and Harvey

21:33

Elliott doesn't feel young does he even though he still

21:35

is. So I

21:38

thought it was a really good afternoon for him. Do you

21:40

know what I really love about him? He always wants the

21:42

ball. He reminds me of Ray

21:44

Houghton who I played with in the Republic of Ireland.

21:46

I've said that before. Did you bump into him yesterday

21:48

and forget about him? No, Ray wasn't there. He's

21:52

going to simmer that one I think. But he always

21:54

wants it. You know you see that player that just

21:56

goes give me it all the time. Even if he,

21:58

you know, could you get the grumbag? at any

22:00

stadium didn't you, sometimes a misplaced bar, he

22:03

always wants the ball. And

22:05

he's not the biggest, but he's fiery, he's got

22:07

a lot of energy, I just

22:09

really like him and I'm hoping

22:11

along the way that he

22:14

doesn't become that still squads

22:16

player because there's a time at Liverpool where

22:18

you've got when you're gonna be number one,

22:21

you know we don't know what's gonna

22:23

happen with Mo Salah, that's still up in the air, but

22:25

I still think there's a big future for him at Liverpool.

22:28

Yeah Alison what do you make of Harvey

22:30

Elliott, as Tony said still only 21, you

22:32

know not really been talked about in the England contention, goodness

22:34

knows we've got a lot of players with left foots who like

22:36

playing on the right side of the pitch, but he

22:38

does to me look like a future Liverpool star.

22:41

Yeah I think he's

22:44

looked like that way since more or

22:46

less he joined Liverpool from Fulham, he's

22:49

and I'm amazed people think there

22:51

might be a problem with him and Salah on the

22:53

pitch at the same time because I think there was

22:55

a period when they've both been together, they

22:58

had such great chemistry and understanding. When

23:00

he came off the bench they often

23:02

linked up for it. Yeah I thought

23:04

they made each other look better players and

23:06

when he's talking about Mo Salah looking better

23:08

then something's going well, yeah

23:13

he's, what he's like I think

23:15

it's probably to do with his youth but he brings

23:19

a sort of different sort of irrepressible sort

23:21

of energy to the team and

23:23

he looks young and

23:25

he looks like he's still trying to

23:27

impress and I don't know if you can

23:29

carry on being like that as you get older and

23:31

more established whether you lose that because that's the joy

23:33

of him is that he looks like I'm

23:37

just really happy to be here because he's far

23:39

there's a Liverpool fan and it

23:41

feels like it really means something to

23:43

him to create a connection with the fans

23:45

and he's as selfish

23:48

as he needs to be when it's the right thing

23:50

to be and also incredibly unselfish when it's the right

23:52

thing to be so I don't I

23:54

don't think he's made a special case from

23:56

this game although I think I just looking

23:59

at Paul Joyce's The magical for it.

24:01

He gave him nine up sandwiches. Big.

24:03

Mark who am. I.

24:05

Think I think he's looked like he. Can. Work for

24:08

Liverpool almost almost from the start

24:10

and. I

24:12

I. I wouldn't have any problem

24:14

always doubting him and sounders get ever. And

24:16

I'm A. I'm assuming Salah will stay. Next

24:19

nixie. It.

24:21

Is we start name family games He pretty

24:23

surprising nice about stuff the counterpoint I'm going

24:25

on. that's what is the off the bench

24:27

be been a real him been partly of

24:29

the bends or can sometimes be hundred sticks

24:31

you like will vote would go harvey to

24:33

through on any in we're come on your

24:35

school go in there. That some players a

24:37

better at doing that say. You don't want to

24:40

be that those relative ease up there but fit it it.

24:42

Meet what it means is on the plus side of

24:44

thing someone to come to a venti you don't need

24:46

very long to climb ties to the match your then

24:48

it hit the ground running When you come on. Which.

24:51

Makes you more valuable Does mean that you're bad at

24:53

when you start the game. It just means. You.

24:56

Eaten rely on him to change things and he. Comes.

24:58

As a lot but we can agree the

25:00

about bush and to because he he please

25:02

in the advancements you drool to basically. Diminutive.

25:06

In the north compare to simulate

25:08

suppose lies a real awfully in

25:10

a little. Is always been engine

25:12

room for Liverpool laws that am not a if

25:14

if not you can't do any part that say

25:16

to the job or just other know a little

25:19

bit different but just I think is or think

25:21

it's been one of his peers absolutely all season

25:23

so I am premise for him. assists the boat

25:25

do that regularly enough to submit a police and

25:27

the team and that's a big challenge or cobbler

25:29

Liverpool too soon for the era squatters you. And.

25:33

You're in the risk of a thing. This hair

25:35

this type of the appearing it's it's it's f

25:37

one. As you said when applies only started nine

25:39

games even though he would when he has done

25:41

and and com of the made. An

25:44

impact. On

25:46

that basis alone will that when kept Liverpool

25:49

mathematically still in the title race, but it

25:51

will come down to Arsenal and much to

25:53

see after they both six of comfortable home

25:55

wins against Bomb With Animals respectively. Gregor you

25:58

were at the Emirates for this game. What?

26:00

Was the throat phrase. Years before we started recording.

26:03

Got. Their bloody goes Yes, yes,

26:05

really deep insight. They're. Not

26:09

around to put or that enter into an

26:11

eight hundred words on gun oh yes it

26:13

will have in it's just a think as

26:15

everyone does he says diskin' it on to

26:17

that The nice because my goodness these influence

26:19

us It as a. Booth. The Question

26:22

rather than the Sally Hansen and The

26:24

Beast, but as there are plans more

26:26

influential. In the premier league to slip. By

26:29

the I mean on the players around them.

26:32

On. This of energy and the stadium

26:34

on the opposition. Are

26:36

on performances on results just as influences. Drive

26:38

is force of personality and know is go

26:41

contributions other one of the ago and and

26:43

system less potent esteem for the season. He

26:45

could have had more as well. he had

26:47

always get a volley and the forty off

26:50

of the set up a got will get

26:52

we the edge in the first after not

26:54

the outstanding likely suffocate them and that's others

26:56

thing about when race please in this more

26:58

advanced rule what he's done last four games

27:01

like unless they did number eight. You

27:04

think going to loosen something about his self protection

27:06

front? The but for but no but the other

27:08

say the that. Get. A game

27:10

that coat oppressing ability as a things would

27:12

he to steal the bowl but this almost

27:14

immediately after has been turned over a the

27:16

data started sick enough for a really good

27:19

chance for soccer and and then he saw

27:21

those long boston runs were in office for

27:23

the this is the Source up and then

27:25

and ninety seventh minute them with people are

27:27

like. Receptor taken

27:29

every effort to so that sit around in a the

27:31

as of yet is the A the is of them

27:33

will come back to deck and right in just a

27:35

second The Anthem and City. Turns out they got some

27:37

bloke up front called Harlan Do can score some goals.

27:39

That we've forgotten about of lights. At Tony, you wanted

27:42

to talk about one of his goals in particular. The

27:44

other heather yes, the leap category

27:46

know? ask wow that I prided

27:48

myself on that topic. Go. On.

27:52

The night I went into meltdown mode

27:54

did wake and I'm idea, well actually

27:57

had a guy everybody even could even

27:59

considered. The he lacked certain abilities

28:01

to be a premier league top plow. I've

28:03

lived with her for a referee school he

28:05

fails. Go I just thought I'd I find

28:07

it ludicrous the anyone with the not the

28:09

guy is a physical place for like goal

28:12

is one that we don't have. A your

28:14

by supply is ahead with the far post.

28:16

This attacking the bone is literally has it

28:18

set back to the other corner and it's

28:20

someone your to hold and coats when you're

28:22

young. does that when the boys coming from

28:24

the right side you attack it utah and

28:27

bury in a the corner these come from

28:29

You miss tell us. He leaves the goalkeeper

28:31

no chance. that's the go. I laughed

28:33

because it's one that very few keepers

28:35

used. You see the not many head

28:37

as you say the ball go him

28:39

before the keepers. Most most keepers can

28:41

really get too ahead because he does

28:43

hideous powerful. They had to the that

28:45

britain which means the caped get somewhere

28:47

near and the leap as well. Easily

28:49

be like Cristiano Ronaldo when it's it's

28:51

not as high but there was many

28:53

pictures in the papers yesterday of the

28:55

he's he's legs remember that he's got

28:57

get legs which of summers six foot

28:59

four six foot five get in nearly

29:02

to the waste of the of the

29:04

the defender and that is really a

29:06

hell of a late because he's carrying

29:08

on to get himself up. With

29:11

me. In. Our even

29:13

in my prime is harder for me

29:15

to get that really high distance. because

29:17

I'm on ebay, I got to get

29:19

myself off the ground. Yeah well, Holland's

29:21

to maim as the it's. I

29:24

don't miss. Sad because don't do that as

29:26

often as I was a light. Whether it's

29:28

had someone to pull the the same around

29:31

and stem faded that's okay facts and but

29:33

that was just a joy that put in

29:35

a box of go guys my quite good

29:37

at scoring who knows it never catch on

29:39

at at have stopped. Talking about Arsenal.

29:41

dangling. Noom coming back switches what harling kill

29:44

by against the say whether I want my point

29:46

on that one after his was her own has

29:48

hurling Harland outshone as cell phone and who was

29:50

of course name for the Rise player of the

29:52

years so I want to talk about both months

29:55

to city and Arsenal in relations plaza de Se

29:57

what did there are thousands of a conceal talk

29:59

about. You wanna say what would

30:01

you do to attorney a cast korean

30:03

and what did you do on a road

30:06

trip or five months ago so liverpool when

30:08

for to and system guy been amazed

30:10

that was his i want some way the

30:12

Sonia was his white looking back at me.

30:16

For five to. Five

30:19

meds now seen as they might be seven. Something

30:21

humorous. My joining for friends and will be spoiled

30:23

rotten. Anyway, I'd like to just briefly talk about

30:26

who you're plays of the would be as the

30:28

cellphone one that would cause I think. Gregor

30:30

going back to awesome and destined rice. You're

30:32

gonna make a change. He said rhodri a

30:35

few weeks ago. As the

30:37

league's annoying are going agree with me but even

30:39

if he had a on the fence the most

30:41

but you do less no right or wrong answer

30:43

in this but I think as and other see

30:45

either you know what? Like that.

30:47

Are more talent as playoffs think is are often

30:50

when we talk we have these conversations. Talent.

30:54

A ways influence and impact on

30:56

games. you know I mean the

30:58

did poorly so food and is

31:00

all it wonderful can have enough

31:02

silky skills and thoughts isn't and

31:04

some great goals that has a

31:06

million little with easy on the

31:08

I will last. You.

31:12

Know I mean those really in the eye and that

31:14

they often this is up. Those are the goal scorer

31:16

but. That. Does that another other

31:18

players who exec. Just

31:20

as much or more influence and Declan races

31:22

one of those people as partners. As tough

31:25

as nails and yet. And

31:27

you're cool in the and on

31:30

their Tnt estimates of compare them

31:32

as performance to like Steven Gerrard,

31:34

Roy Keane at Patrick Vieira an

31:36

ill. Ethical In a season that

31:38

would seem that London can have come until.

31:41

Then. also doesn't say about that this truth

31:43

in that he could be could become that

31:45

kind of figure for arsenal i honestly believe

31:48

that this is for season after moving from

31:50

one hundred million quid and now looking kind

31:52

of like a bargain will this thing as

31:54

they sing declan race we go i'm half

31:56

price us a new song and at emory

31:58

so let it snow and ice ice I

32:00

said it's more like they got two for

32:02

the price of one because you know he's at

32:04

outstanding number six and he's showing himself

32:06

to be an outstanding number eight now. So what you're saying

32:08

is a few weeks ago you said Roger and I said

32:10

Declan Reisen now you're saying you agree with me that's what

32:12

you're saying. Okay Tom I'm saying that yeah. That's great. Tony

32:15

Cascurino you're not for changing. Oli Watkins still your player

32:18

of the year? Yeah. Absolutely.

32:20

I mean I could just say that look an

32:23

opinion of a different candidates there's always

32:25

going to be three or four choices

32:28

at least. Yeah yeah yeah. Just one

32:30

outstanding player. Yeah. I mean that's happened

32:32

before with people like De Bruyne where

32:34

you know his season was incredible. I

32:36

mean I just on deck on rise

32:38

it's so much more interesting watching him

32:40

play alongside Pate who's coming to the

32:42

team after a long injury just allows

32:45

him to go. You know I was

32:47

at the game as well as I said

32:49

and watching Roy and by the

32:51

way and me and Greg were talking on

32:53

fair about this that you know watching

32:55

Declan Reisen actually played the game but when you're watching

32:57

him live you're actually seeing him getting the crowd up

32:59

as he's playing. He's actually waving the players as the

33:02

game's going on and that was quite

33:04

funny because you know he's really

33:06

driving a lot. Probably part of

33:08

that improved Emirates atmosphere that we talked about so much. Yeah

33:10

it's much different. I mean the Emirates is a different place

33:12

to go. That also

33:15

incorporates Arsenal and my point I

33:17

would say and I've

33:19

seen quite a lot of Arsenal of late they

33:21

are the team to beat next year without a doubt. It's

33:24

going to I always say stick it. I've

33:27

always said stick it with the team this year. Arsenal are going to be the

33:29

team to beat next year. You can

33:31

see the age profile as well. The players are like 22, 23,

33:33

25, 26. They're

33:37

in the in the plane or entering the

33:39

plane. They've got a good like the squad has

33:41

got maybe three or four years of

33:43

development as it is now. Clip

33:45

that up Neil. Gregor Robson not the man who hates

33:48

predictions already saying that Arsenal are going to win the

33:50

league next year. Alison Rudd you voted

33:52

for an Arsenal player for your player of the year. You

33:54

know, recency bias is making this

33:56

room bloated. It's like Martin Eredigard

33:59

because overall. Overall

34:01

he is the player of the season.

34:03

It's not player of the weekend

34:05

is it? Honestly Tony what on

34:08

earth happened seriously? The safeguard didn't

34:10

turn up until September of the

34:12

month. Mine's been

34:14

down over the whole of the season. To be fair

34:16

you picked Ollie Watkins about three seasons ago for the

34:18

player of the season. Alison please

34:20

continue. Can you please sorry Alison? No

34:23

I... She's got the door on edge now. I

34:26

like Erdegaard because of the

34:29

variety of things he brings. So I

34:32

think he's a supremely gifted player and

34:35

his... The vision

34:37

he has, his passing abilities, accuracy is

34:40

allied to other qualities. So

34:43

he's very unselfish, he's always

34:45

providing an outball. He's

34:47

a very supportive captain of

34:49

the team. I know you mentioned that Declan

34:52

Rice is the one that sort of connects

34:54

with the crowd. But he does that too.

34:56

He does also go to the

34:58

crowd and ask them to listen noise. I

35:01

think he's got everything you could want.

35:03

I think he's versatile as well. And

35:06

sometimes there are matches where the

35:08

beautiful element of his

35:10

game can't be expressed

35:13

or isn't necessary. And he will do the grafting

35:15

as well. So I think he's the complete

35:18

footballer. And a lot

35:20

of what he does I think is underrated. And Gregor

35:22

just said, oh he didn't turn up till when? When

35:24

did you think he turned up? September?

35:28

Yeah, at least September. That's because he wasn't

35:30

not turning up. He was just...

35:33

Well we were all talking about it. He

35:36

was doing his... still doing his thing.

35:38

We were asking where Arsenal's kind of

35:40

fluent rhythm was and he was

35:42

as... Well if he wasn't quite at it

35:44

that just proves how important he is. Don't

35:46

poke the bear Gregor. I'm

35:50

happy with that enough. No,

35:52

you haven't said the key point about the

35:54

Arsenal game. Which is

35:57

why an earth bar exists if you don't look

35:59

at it. No, no, no, this

36:01

is an important one because Kai

36:03

Havarts is running and then he suddenly

36:05

decides the way you run is that

36:07

you drag your toes along

36:10

the ground so that you fall over

36:12

the absolute clearest dive of

36:14

the century. VAR looks at it

36:17

and doesn't and wimps out and

36:19

therefore utterly makes it

36:21

a useless concept. My blood was

36:23

boiling watching this. I

36:26

said it at the moment, I was sitting beside Paul Rowan who

36:28

was writing the Sunday Times match for,

36:30

I was like that's a dive and

36:32

then we saw it on the screen and I also

36:34

said the referee blew the whistle and

36:37

he still didn't know what he was going to do. He

36:40

blew the whistle and then he

36:42

took three seconds maybe and you could

36:44

see him wavering. So he was between giving

36:47

a foul for a dive

36:49

to Bournemouth or giving

36:51

a penalty and he went with a penalty

36:53

and because of that, VAR couldn't, because then

36:55

he would say there's not a clear and

36:58

obvious error. Well it was a clear and

37:00

obvious error. He touched him so by the

37:02

nonsense of the

37:05

protocol, I completely

37:07

agree with you but by the nonsense idea

37:09

of the protocol, there's enough

37:11

to say that okay you

37:13

can see why he gave a penalty. That's

37:16

the warped state of VAR. Lucky you didn't

37:18

go in that car yesterday. At least we

37:20

know what Alison Rudd's really upset about now

37:22

and it's not Tony Cascarino. Hang on, hang

37:24

on, it was the second one though because

37:27

Raya came out and like punched, it's

37:30

the minimal, minimal thing but because he

37:32

gave it on the pitch. I watched

37:34

that one and thought oh Greg is

37:36

going to come on and say that's

37:38

the same as the Villa Chelsea one, the

37:40

nudge. It's a foul, it's a

37:42

foul as he said okay. No, no he didn't

37:44

touch him. No because he still got

37:46

the punch on the wall. It's very different. That

37:48

was like an isolated incident that led directly to

37:51

a goal. He still got the punch on the

37:53

ball and he's not strong

37:55

enough generally speaking. The littling was whole

37:57

to the ground. Yeah but again it's

37:59

because the referee gave it on the

38:01

pitch that VAR is essentially pointless. So

38:03

what is the yesterday thoughts or points? I'm

38:05

glad we're all in agreement on that. Everyone talks

38:07

about this need, sorry, that really annoyed me. Everyone

38:11

talks about this need just to remember

38:13

the clear and obvious. It doesn't exist.

38:16

It doesn't exist. It will never exist. We're

38:18

carrying this till the end, Tony and you. Alison's

38:21

co-rupted Gregor now. He did a bad move. Me

38:24

and you to the end. Anyway, if you're a

38:26

football fan who presumably agrees with Gregor and Alison,

38:28

let's hope you do about VAR or maybe you

38:30

want to offer your views on who should be

38:32

player of the year. And

38:35

for now stick with us. We're going to

38:37

have a very happy second half of the

38:39

show talking about Chelsea. VoiceOver

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day returns on your next

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order. That's quince.com/upgrade. Hello,

40:22

and welcome back to the Game Football Podcast.

40:24

From The Times, I'm Tom Clark, and today

40:27

I'm joined by Alison Rood, Tony Cascarino, and

40:29

Gregor Robson. Now, after an impressive comeback against

40:31

Aston Villa and two comprehensive wins against Spurs

40:33

and West Ham, Chelsea are up

40:36

to seventh and could still, technically, maybe,

40:38

who knows, finish fifth. So,

40:41

Gregor Robson, having slagged them off all season, it's

40:43

now time for you to change your mind on

40:45

this as well, right? Chelsea, suddenly look quite good,

40:47

don't they? Yeah.

40:50

Yeah. I wouldn't get carried away, though, personally.

40:52

You never would. But they

40:54

do, but it's promising signs, right? Absolutely. The

40:57

players I've kind of developed

41:01

quite a lot recently, I'd say Kai Cido is

41:03

one of them, and I'd say Noni Maduecki as

41:05

well. It's definitely one of them. He's been outstanding

41:07

the last few weeks. He certainly was in this

41:09

game. Cole Palmer's always been there.

41:12

Mudriq's still non-existent. And

41:16

Jackson, when

41:18

someone actually passes him the ball,

41:20

you know, like in a decent

41:22

goal scoring position, you can get a couple of

41:24

goals. I

41:27

personally still wouldn't get too carried away. I

41:29

think they still gave

41:31

up some really good chances. I still am not

41:33

convinced about them defensively. Jared Bohn

41:35

at the bar three times. I

41:38

think West Ham had 13 attempts on goal. I

41:40

know it's a five-noul, it was a well-deserved comprehensive

41:42

win. And the

41:44

thing that you hear Pochettino talking about now

41:46

is that they're maturing. And again,

41:50

I wouldn't... I'd say we're

41:52

seeing signs of that. We're seeing some

41:55

signs of cohesion. Like players who

41:57

now know a little bit more about what it's like

41:59

to play with these. other. But

42:02

like Gallagher and Quesado perhaps in midfield, which

42:04

we have touched on before in recent shows,

42:06

but it just looks a more and more

42:08

persuasive argument that those two should be the

42:10

midfield too and that Enzo, Fernandez and Quesado

42:13

might cost 200 million quid

42:15

together, but doesn't necessarily mean they can play

42:17

together. Yeah, but I mean, again,

42:19

do you have much confidence in any

42:22

of this progress not being undermined again

42:24

in the summer? Why them selling Conor

42:26

Gallagher? Why them selling people that they

42:28

probably shouldn't. And who

42:30

knows what they're doing with Boggardino

42:32

as well. Look,

42:35

they've taken big straights in the last few weeks, but I

42:37

still think there's some serious

42:40

question marks about them. Just on Conor Gallagher, he's

42:42

a player that fascinates me in terms of his

42:44

trajectory, having been in teams on loan and looking

42:46

very good. Then in this Chelsea team, you have

42:48

captain of this Chelsea team. What the hell does

42:51

that mean? We talked about great captains and great

42:53

leaders, Declan Rice, Martin Erdogan. Tony, what do you

42:55

make of Conor Gallagher as a player? Is he

42:58

a player that Chelsea should in this age

43:00

of FFP, pure profit as a home-grown player,

43:02

maybe be looking to sell in the summer

43:04

or should they be keeping hold of him

43:06

at all costs? Well, I always like to

43:08

think players can improve and develop. And I

43:10

think when he went out on loan,

43:12

he got goals and he played in a certain way

43:15

for Crystal Palace. He came

43:17

back to Chelsea and he's been asked to be

43:19

a little bit more disciplined. But when he's got

43:21

Quesado alongside him and he doesn't have to be

43:23

so reliant because Cole Palmer will play often

43:26

in front of him. We'll get in positions around

43:28

the edge of the box and he can feed

43:30

him. He's a really good player.

43:33

I think there's more there. I've always felt that

43:35

about Conor Gallagher. He's not complete because

43:37

Chelsea have gone for a very young

43:39

project. I was

43:42

at the game at Spurs and I thought it

43:44

was easy to say, you

43:46

know, Spurs were pretty poor in the game. As

43:49

Gregor said, Madawaki was really

43:51

good. He wants to take

43:53

the fall back on. He wants to drive

43:55

to that line and he'll come inside and

43:57

the movement at Chelsea has got better. If

44:01

we think, if we go to next season,

44:03

if you think that if Jackson scores

44:06

20, 25% maybe 30%

44:09

more of his chances, he'd have 20 goals. He

44:12

could easily get 20 goals. He's had

44:15

a season where he should be way above 20

44:17

goals with the amount of chances he's had. So

44:19

he's only 22. I'd like

44:21

to think there's a lot more improvement there. The whole

44:24

of their back line's been injured, nearly, all season. People

44:27

like to fan you of, not really kick the ball. There

44:29

was a lot of money spent on him. I

44:33

think certainly Chelsea can challenge for a top four

44:35

next year. I think what we're seeing is the

44:37

form of a team that, with a bit more

44:40

improvement, can go again. I

44:42

love it. That's your second prediction for

44:44

next season already. We've got to... I know.

44:47

I know. I know. I

44:49

know. I know. I

44:51

know. I know. I know.

44:54

I know. I know. I

44:57

know. I know. I know. It's

45:00

way better. And Chelsea are

45:02

not even close to the finished article in any

45:04

shape or form. I'm not going over the top

45:06

here. There are lots of areas of

45:08

the pitch where you think it's

45:11

got to be... And Poch is finding his feet

45:13

with his team. But you can sort of guess

45:15

his side now, which is... That's

45:17

a big thing. If you can name the

45:20

team that the manager's going to name, it's

45:22

because we're all pretty sure that's going to be his

45:24

best lineup. And he hasn't done

45:26

that often enough this year because I don't think

45:28

he's really found his best lineup. He's suddenly, from

45:30

Fernandez being out, and so Fernandez not playing, I

45:33

think they're better. But it has

45:35

Karl Palmer to be that only guard position.

45:38

It doesn't allow him to do that because as we

45:40

know, he can score goals in

45:42

many very different areas of the pitch, Karl

45:44

Palmer. Alison, in terms of players like Madaweke

45:46

and things, we've seen scenes recently of Pochettino

45:48

chumming up with him on the pitch and

45:50

things. And lots of the qualities that he

45:52

had when he was Tottenham manager. Do you

45:54

think there is a sense that it's kind of coming

45:57

together a little bit for Pochettino after a slightly strange

45:59

few weeks where... he was having these mad press

46:01

conferences and talking all about himself rather than about his team.

46:04

Yeah, well, I mean, if

46:07

this was all happening in January,

46:11

it would be like, really quite

46:13

beautiful, because they are coming

46:16

together. They really are. And I

46:19

was also there reporting on the

46:21

game against Spurs, and it

46:24

did feel like a breakthrough moment. Even

46:27

Mudrick played well, actually, which is

46:29

saying something. They were they were

46:32

gelling and they had an identity.

46:34

There was a connection between the

46:36

crowd and the players. It looked

46:39

like they looked like a team. They

46:41

were cohesive and fearless and fun

46:44

to watch. But it might all have

46:46

come too late. And it is

46:48

slightly bizarre that it's taken until May.

46:52

It takes until May for it to happen. So I

46:54

don't know if it has come too late, but

46:57

let's assume it hasn't. I

46:59

think there is. I think I think what we're

47:01

seeing now is really positive. And

47:04

I have been as critical about Chelsea as

47:06

anyone. And I'm prepared to say when

47:08

it clicks for them, they I agree with Tony.

47:10

I think they could be top four next season

47:12

because there's a lot of talent there.

47:15

And I agree completely that Gallagher

47:17

and Kysado are a

47:20

great midfield pairing. But Fernandez,

47:23

I would say I think he's been playing with

47:25

a hernia problem all season and

47:28

he's not been fully fit. So there might

47:30

be that might not be just like what

47:33

a wasted experiment and a lot of money. He

47:35

might still be able to bring something to the team. But

47:37

yeah, it

47:40

is really in the balance whether they stick with

47:42

Poch or not. Just like a little

47:45

reminder that they lost five nil to Arsenal

47:47

two weeks ago. Absolutely. Like the

47:50

Arsenal are bloody good, apparently, according to you. They

47:52

are. They are. Then they played against the

47:54

Villa game and Well,

47:57

they played well. They Still shipped two goals and that the

47:59

chase. The invited to directly

48:01

against the relief of a really

48:03

below par Spurs and Western team

48:05

you are on on the beach

48:07

and ill. Probably.

48:09

Going to get them into of

48:11

himself as a death or just

48:13

think. We. Can have

48:15

had these glimpses before and at this is this

48:18

is. The have taken

48:20

straight and what other said before were see that

48:22

scene and individuals in was seen and stuff

48:24

like Gleeson and units and it was in the

48:26

team but again there are we talking about

48:28

as isn't only about four com and him that

48:30

played together you. Believe

48:33

that he the striker they need. They need

48:35

someone who's like. A.

48:37

Leader at the back as well. I think that

48:39

even amongst those players without with what this book

48:42

about I'm I'm not sure there's like the still

48:44

there so that are things that we still need

48:46

to with that to the score. The thing was

48:48

can be interested in may or may not as

48:50

most games is a big loss and you'd like

48:53

to think they were bets have him in the

48:55

same. I would

48:57

look up for fan yeah and then outlook of

48:59

probably a bench here. well connected, more up cook

49:01

a while by the way. they try to hide

49:04

really really well and the last couple games of

49:06

what am I don't think. This. Essay

49:08

and by the seal or solution for

49:10

Chelsea got into next season might have

49:12

been apply. I think one of the

49:14

might play now and again. I don't

49:16

think that will be the the said

49:18

opposition car was will probably be back

49:20

involved so I think it's a lot

49:22

brighter. Than most people

49:25

think. That sub. I'm

49:27

pretty optimistic about Chelsea Rep as been for

49:29

little while. I mean them when they you

49:31

mentioned got the been a pop into know

49:33

down You know that there's a lot that's

49:36

how see the east and go when they

49:38

get it right and I movie quake My

49:40

don't need much of an improvement to be

49:42

a top fourteen. Brighter.

49:45

The still uncertainty as surrounding Chelsea and

49:47

is definitely someone says the surrounding West

49:49

Ham as you mentioned Gregor this at

49:51

Gary Jacob reporting on the Times website

49:54

and now that Union of Tiger is

49:56

set to take over as manage at

49:58

next season replacing David Moyes. I'm

50:00

Greg you said about with I'm Being

50:02

on the Beach. There is an element

50:04

of that because partly because of this

50:06

uncertainty around the manager and what do

50:08

we make of that situation is that

50:10

those news reports do chance because. He

50:15

didn't use yeah but Pov yes, sympathy

50:17

for David Moyes. Absolutely because he enough.

50:20

When. The Metro for and one has to face

50:22

cause they are you and and like. That

50:24

was an enormous moment for them and one

50:26

that will. Live. With all the

50:28

fans for a long time and I like

50:30

to think that when all the can't ah

50:32

sales and this that he will be remembered

50:34

and they are more fondly and and slightly

50:36

different late is really what they love. It

50:39

said we're not great Lilith isn't was this

50:41

is a thing I mean he. he did

50:43

a brilliant job of wills when he came

50:45

in to kind of making them really well

50:47

organized at it. Could see no evidence of

50:49

of his coaching on that team but. If

50:52

this is a if it's the kinda step teens. That

50:55

you want. For. West Ham to be a club.

50:58

The. Compete in for a like for Champions

51:00

League football and and there's no reason why

51:02

waste time should not be she know others

51:04

aspirations with the size size of the club,

51:07

the size of fan base size of the

51:09

stadium that season when the when they won

51:11

the european to v members that was only

51:13

like two teams in Europe had. Add

51:15

more teams that most more support and the stadium

51:17

that. For. Like the potential is

51:20

undoubtedly they are. I just don't

51:22

know if. The

51:24

step change his lover take our mean to be

51:26

convinced about that because of. What?

51:29

The what they want to see is

51:31

more excitement voice expansive football us assists.

51:33

I don't know thats what look at

51:35

exists. Alison? would you make the

51:37

West Ham situation as we head towards anything.

51:42

I. Think there's a favor cases. Let's

51:45

go for a foreign coach is that

51:47

Phone cases? Banks? And that none of

51:49

this last And. Sesame. Than.

51:52

That Led flares never attached itself

51:54

to David Moyes. That. I.

51:56

Also think. It's gonna

51:58

be easier. for fans accept the

52:01

change because I don't think they're all

52:03

in unison on thinking they weren't always out. I

52:05

think some like regular grown-up enough to think oh

52:07

I remember how happy I was when we won

52:09

that European trophy. It wasn't that long ago was

52:11

it? And

52:13

if you lose 5-0 a couple of

52:15

times is that really worse

52:17

than losing 1-0 a lot more

52:20

often? No it's not it just looks more embarrassing

52:22

in the moment. Overall his

52:24

overall body of work given

52:27

his lost death and life and I thought that's where

52:29

you were going to come back to Dex and Rice

52:31

actually because that's the reason David Moyes gave for the

52:34

5-0 we don't have Dex and Rice. And

52:37

it was a big loss for him to absorb

52:40

and like many managers he's also

52:42

had injury issues. I think it's

52:46

just so easy to think oh you know he's

52:48

done as well as he can Moyes. He got

52:50

them the European trophy. After

52:53

you've done that you sort of ave earned the

52:55

right to not only have won something you don't

52:57

want to be entertained a bit more. It's

53:02

just slightly lazy to think well that'll

53:04

happen if we change the manager and

53:06

oh if he's a foreign manager it'll

53:09

be easier. I don't know this is

53:11

this weird mindset we have in this

53:13

country where it's a

53:15

safe bet to go to someone whose

53:18

CV is actually quite limited in Premier

53:20

League football. I agree with you we

53:22

did gush about him slightly on this

53:24

podcast, Lopategu, but his

53:27

CV in Premier League football

53:29

is quite limited. Changing

53:33

managers the clearest pass to changing the

53:35

style of football. What I'm seeing is

53:37

I'm not sure that Lopategu is the

53:39

guy who to give the

53:41

fans the football they want.

53:44

But there are arguments for changing David Moyes

53:46

and I think probably just about a majority

53:48

of the fan base will

53:50

support the decision while still having

53:53

feeling in the weeks

53:55

and months ahead Real affection

53:57

for David Moyes and what he did. If

54:00

even the clip from allegation twice

54:02

at. Be. Making them you know

54:05

look a season with the finish pretty intense

54:07

and twelve and be disappointed. sense of a

54:09

sudden and see of and that night and

54:11

practice. Absolutely well west. Sometimes if you've

54:13

got views on the change in manager or

54:15

maybe one say you're happy memories about David

54:17

Moyes. You can get such meat and o'clock

54:19

at the time. Dakota you case, Gregory you

54:21

mentioned relegation And that brings us to the

54:23

final segment of the show I Nottingham Forest

54:25

putting some much needed space between them and

54:28

the bottom three with a win against Sheffield

54:30

United at that when Men Chef United became

54:32

the first sides can see the hundred goals

54:34

in thirty eight games English top Flight campaign

54:36

since Leicester City and nineteen O Eight O

54:38

nine. When. They conceded hundred and two

54:40

and Sheffield United frighteningly of got two games

54:42

left to go to top that record and.

54:45

Gregor this is I think I think

54:48

hundred and stuff. but at has this

54:50

been the worst seasons any team in

54:52

the Premier League era. Ask

54:54

the promotion. Adults

54:56

as the man who basically t the up

54:58

that that was exactly going to happen. Impressive.

55:02

Yes I mean as go to the and like.

55:05

Again, I don't. I wouldn't. Really

55:08

any blame at the door of the

55:10

players? that things ridiculous or they won't

55:12

ever given a chance they want supported

55:14

by adding. Some

55:18

more talent to the score the the summer

55:20

thought the last the air I would lay

55:22

the any blame that for like and long

55:24

story though because what what he achieved again

55:27

the promote a display all it off field

55:29

issues and stuff the season before was remarkable

55:31

and first place and I will any blame

55:33

at criswell the store with us he came

55:36

and there was already a sinking ship and

55:38

he tried his best with his can force

55:40

of personality to do some in a voter

55:42

and at as not really happened above a

55:45

very brief spell it stop. Em

55:47

the the blame lies with than subdue

55:49

other owner at is. Search.

55:52

Of the club has been absolutely some

55:54

like those are think that eating, please

55:56

contact the at I hardly ever let

55:58

you football club. The point I'm embedded

56:00

to the I loans to go back to the

56:03

I was there. At just

56:05

than a week before preseason, it

56:07

also said that. He

56:09

said on a on a fun. Fun! Podcast

56:11

can have you tube channel thing that's the

56:13

kind of and abuse against in doesn't dance

56:15

and with local presence and. He

56:18

said that. He. Thinks players only played

56:20

at the best when that in the failure of

56:22

the contract. And a lot

56:24

the players. Who. Just gone from would. Obviously.

56:28

Know. The than the failure at two years

56:30

by the replay of thing can sort

56:32

of it. we just. Below. You

56:34

were on the verge of administration. We've just

56:36

despite all with over things like us know

56:38

of any on the soil he and are

56:41

like could have a cold showers or this

56:43

is not grub hub eighty grand the staff

56:45

not oven he had to be leaks in

56:47

the in the wrist the stuff of an

56:49

any like why scope or anything like that

56:51

in no bills being paid despite everything we've

56:53

just probably double the value of your football

56:55

club bike employed and you see this. So.

56:59

Know. The overhaul that

57:01

that chef as you need to look at

57:03

the summer as advanced turning out what Chris

57:05

while the someone that you know quite well

57:07

i was in when he came in you

57:09

know it was with the idea that not

57:11

just city pull off a miracle saved them

57:13

from relegation the primitive to look forward as

57:15

well with everything the Greg talking about now.

57:18

They're in a. Slightly. Perilous states

57:20

in terms of the teacher the next

57:22

season the championship which is of incredibly

57:24

competitive league with a lot of talented

57:27

teams and talented manages. Yeah I'm well

57:29

I know because I spoke to him

57:31

about this that everything's been already been

57:33

point place for next season already. Now

57:35

with like Geico talked about plans come

57:38

in our contract an idea. Of

57:41

how they can bounce back from next season

57:43

and all the issues that they've gone from

57:45

this year. And there's a clear. Coming

57:47

at us and Quagga we could all

57:49

say that from the south season the

57:52

problems that light a hot light light

57:54

on them for the rest of the

57:56

season was that hacking. But my the

57:58

same issues in our. Just had a

58:00

squad the wasn't good enough. I'm. I.

58:04

Was because I've bought the dark sense of

58:06

humor. Sometimes I was gonna message christened sites,

58:08

just go and watch good film. Chris hundred

58:10

and two time now. she has a sound

58:12

like as a good opposing side note so

58:14

maybe give it a couple of weeks and

58:16

I live. I think

58:18

he knows and I know that things

58:20

have been put in place right now.

58:23

That doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna work.

58:25

I'm. But. I've also

58:27

got low needs as well. Though the. Have

58:29

been at the football club so it's a

58:32

it's a huge challenge in process is been

58:34

there before he was there would need one

58:36

when he walked into the club on the

58:38

had a lot to deal with so he'll

58:41

think he's capable of doing it is a

58:43

very infuse s take positive guy in many

58:45

ways I'm and sometimes he needs to be

58:48

com there. Hum preschools Iraq be amiss amazing

58:50

games re by mom gonna try lose it

58:52

off I'm going to try and get better.

58:54

Three tracks funny now busting you know must

58:57

somehow the chances. Against voice.

58:59

That. Could win Hum enjoy a half sun

59:01

on a we set back on then have

59:03

we not call list. Is

59:06

it just. Does it's not

59:08

good enough? This is the mint and a

59:10

minute minute number. Things were like you see

59:12

someone or defended his panicking because the know

59:14

that declared of season. As

59:16

a good dog about love about of them

59:18

and not just and with books as they

59:20

just weren't good enough them that was clear

59:23

from the start of the season. So full

59:25

of nine or home as well. Three, three

59:27

one where they yeah but it's could probably

59:29

should have been full of Alison get into

59:31

the the I'm in relation to the teams

59:33

who going to be replacing them. Ipswich secured

59:36

their promotion from the jump ship. a remarkable

59:38

story by wanted to look at that promotion

59:40

in relation to the relegation zone. Now with

59:42

Luton burning se night looking like they'll probably

59:44

three teams of treating straight back down. Is.

59:47

The Premier league got harder. Is

59:50

a other who are those teams? Probably

59:52

the three worst he quits did they

59:54

have you know, naive tactical approach is

59:56

Pat Burnley Alison I'm looking eat something

59:58

he said last. The switching care

1:00:00

mckenna be looking at next season in light

1:00:02

of the three teams that just had a

1:00:05

Cracker A and almost certainly sales. I

1:00:09

think. I think that

1:00:11

the hope for them will be that they

1:00:13

have so much momentum and of thing players.

1:00:16

Along with in on the journey

1:00:18

from League One to the families

1:00:21

with a higher ceiling than. Than

1:00:23

probably than the championship they are moments in

1:00:26

a couple of he says they need embroidered

1:00:28

from ever an air. Of

1:00:30

the Odp like a one off million for him. he'd

1:00:32

been it even a long time and can have not

1:00:34

quite got an opportunity. To

1:00:37

and he Capella step up into the Premier League

1:00:39

and. Do something seemingly stay the

1:00:42

same with a few few others as well,

1:00:44

And. In a with Burns's another

1:00:46

he likes been around so many clubs

1:00:48

and lower leagues. aberdeen Scotland complete with

1:00:50

tone and twenty twenty one but you

1:00:53

watch him He was the with. A

1:00:55

stick in the championship by Storm and

1:00:58

his first full season at level. He

1:01:01

thinks the moment the just that momentum

1:01:03

as a bit like seafood United under

1:01:06

Criswell though the first time when. They.

1:01:08

Came from David and theses didn't do but

1:01:11

the by the went up from league one

1:01:13

that one season can a consolidation and the

1:01:15

way up again but there was still a

1:01:17

real cool players from the league one promotion.

1:01:20

That. Step up and for season, what did? They finished

1:01:22

ninth. And and finally

1:01:24

get me type of releasing militarily that

1:01:26

as like so. That it

1:01:28

that? I kinda think there's a chance that

1:01:30

we see that discipline that big Fc keep

1:01:33

the same can a group and obviously add

1:01:35

to it. Am under no. we're

1:01:37

again. There's no way that they can

1:01:39

have. Been. Duly with

1:01:41

if tweak they're they're still a plea. From the league

1:01:43

one to the championship is that. Mckenna

1:01:46

acknowledge this is a for I

1:01:48

was a far more athletic dynamic league

1:01:50

if the event a real detail

1:01:52

either. Things like the amount of thing

1:01:55

the balls in play. It

1:01:57

jumped by like five or six minutes. But

1:01:59

in the league. So he knew that

1:02:01

he had to have a really athletic team and look

1:02:03

you'll know that there's another big step up to the

1:02:05

Premier League But when

1:02:07

they have the ball they see did a bit more possession

1:02:09

in the championship, too So he's

1:02:11

just a really intelligent coach and I think

1:02:13

I think fun the fundamentals about her ups

1:02:15

which play and how they want You

1:02:18

know some of the stats in the piece about the

1:02:21

Outscored every every team even on even

1:02:23

on like Goals

1:02:25

per game because obviously there's more games in the football

1:02:27

league in the Premier League only I

1:02:29

think there's only the top three in the Liverpool

1:02:32

Arsenal Man City Who

1:02:34

scored more goals per game than it's which they

1:02:36

will be a threat going forward you

1:02:38

know what Allison mentioned flavor of the month and

1:02:41

ideas earlier on and You

1:02:43

know we're looking back at one season This

1:02:46

season could be a one-off where in my opinion

1:02:48

that's what it will be many teams have stayed

1:02:50

up You know this idea that three

1:02:52

teams go down and it's going to happen regularly from

1:02:54

here on in I just think is nonsense I

1:02:57

think it will be this is just

1:02:59

a one-off season that a

1:03:01

lot of times over the last ten years Yes,

1:03:03

teams come up and get relegated again But we

1:03:05

haven't had that scenario of three of them going

1:03:08

down. Mmm, you know, which is possible this year

1:03:10

I'd like to think I'd like to be

1:03:12

a bit more optimistic that We'll

1:03:15

look back at this period and go no it didn't end up

1:03:17

panning out that way year by year I think normally we will

1:03:19

look back on this period as if there's

1:03:21

a change in the in the distribution of

1:03:23

money from the Premier League downwards because there's

1:03:27

teams who Who

1:03:29

have been average? who have Competed

1:03:33

the next season just because of Premier League

1:03:35

parachute payments allows You

1:03:37

can almost argue chef United or one look all the mess

1:03:39

that they were in And

1:03:42

the fact that the fact that they could hold on to

1:03:44

the bulk of their squad from the Premier League Meant

1:03:47

they were gonna have a chance and they could put all that

1:03:49

to one side and you're not not rich have done it It's

1:03:51

like You almost don't

1:03:53

have to be that good. You don't have to be

1:03:55

that smart anymore If you have Premier

1:03:57

League parachute payments to be in with in

1:04:00

with a really good chance of bouncing

1:04:02

straight back. And mostly it's gonna happen every year,

1:04:04

but what they were competing with,

1:04:06

Ipswich's turnover is like 20 million. And

1:04:09

the parachute payments, 43. 43

1:04:11

million. But I was thinking the other way, Greg, I was talking

1:04:13

about teams going up and then coming back down. You

1:04:15

know, like Ipswich are going up this year. There's not, you know, this

1:04:18

year we look like we could have maybe all

1:04:20

three getting relegated. We've got to promote the point

1:04:23

this year. Yeah, there's context in everyone. Like Leicester,

1:04:25

you would imagine, you know, Leicester have been a

1:04:27

team that have been able to submit their status

1:04:29

in the Premier League. And you would imagine that

1:04:31

they all have a good chance of doing that,

1:04:33

even if leads go up. If, so it's time

1:04:35

to go back up. Well,

1:04:38

it's not easy. The golf

1:04:40

is undoubtedly bigger. One final point that I wanted to

1:04:42

make in relation to this, which leads us back to

1:04:45

the very starting topic of this podcast about Tottenham and

1:04:47

changing styles. And Alison, I'll come

1:04:49

to you on this, because in the championship and

1:04:51

across the football pyramid, there's such a desire to

1:04:53

play a certain way and to play wonderful attacking

1:04:55

football, which Ipswich have definitely done this season. Alison,

1:04:58

of course, you saw them undone by the mighty

1:05:00

Maidstone in the FA Cup. And

1:05:02

you've been a big pusher of Burnley maybe adapting

1:05:04

a more pragmatic approach after blowing the championship away

1:05:07

last season. Do you think that might be

1:05:09

a factor? We've seen many teams

1:05:11

come up before, Chris Wilder, Sheffield, being

1:05:13

one of them, who are very solid,

1:05:15

very hardworking, still play good football

1:05:17

at times, but that's not the be all and

1:05:19

end all. And that these teams maybe come

1:05:21

up with this desire for wonderful football and don't,

1:05:24

as we're saying with Tottenham, have the quality to

1:05:26

play like that way in the Premier League.

1:05:28

So could that be a problem? Yeah, no, if

1:05:30

you, so it used to be that

1:05:34

the qualities that got you to win

1:05:36

the championship were not the

1:05:38

qualities that you'd need

1:05:40

in the Premier League. And those qualities were

1:05:42

athleticism and stamina and

1:05:46

good management. And when

1:05:49

you get to the Premier League and you

1:05:51

think, oh, well, lacking the ability to

1:05:53

cope with Tiki

1:05:55

Taka or whatever was the flavour of the month, it's

1:05:58

just a level above in terms of... technical

1:06:01

skill and a really weird

1:06:03

thing has happened, I think it's

1:06:05

the weirdest thing I've ever seen in

1:06:08

football is that Burnley managed to win

1:06:10

the championship playing pretty, very

1:06:13

pretty football, stylish football

1:06:15

and so a lot of people were

1:06:17

seduced into thinking well they'll

1:06:20

acclimatise better than anybody in the Premier

1:06:22

League because that's what you do

1:06:25

there but it's

1:06:27

almost inverted so in the Premier League you need

1:06:29

to be able to have all the technical ability

1:06:31

but you need to be such

1:06:34

prime specimens of athletes as well that's

1:06:37

the golf, it's having

1:06:40

all of it so you can still

1:06:42

play pretty football in championship and win it and

1:06:44

yet looks like you haven't got 90 minutes of

1:06:47

football in you when you've come to the Premier

1:06:49

League and you haven't got the standard of skill,

1:06:51

you've got relatively good technicians

1:06:53

but compared to what

1:06:55

exists in the Premier League you're made to

1:06:58

look naive and so on

1:07:00

so I do find that

1:07:02

fascinating that what you

1:07:04

have, what you contain to get

1:07:06

promotion, it's all about what

1:07:09

you do with it to stay up which is why

1:07:11

one reason I'm a big

1:07:13

fan of Thomas Frank, we talked about a

1:07:15

lot yesterday because... Sounds like you talked

1:07:17

about everything yesterday to be fair. Because

1:07:19

I would have, I still

1:07:21

think I'd rather him in the Narni slot with the

1:07:23

next Liverpool manager because we've

1:07:25

seen what he can do because he,

1:07:28

you need a really clever coach to

1:07:31

take the best bits that got you promotion

1:07:34

and to adapt to the Premier League and that

1:07:36

often just means you know how you set up

1:07:38

against specific opposition. Greg

1:07:40

a final word from you on that point

1:07:42

and Ipswich and Kieran McKenna being that clever

1:07:45

coach, that can take Alison's points and adapt

1:07:47

and still keep what they are. Yeah, Bernal is a

1:07:50

good reference point in fairness because they took

1:07:52

the championship by storm and you know we

1:07:55

had this conversation in the preview show didn't we

1:07:57

about how Bernal were gonna Adapt.

1:08:00

organ of you know evolve a toll

1:08:02

on the and they didn't really but

1:08:04

it does come the and and athleticism

1:08:06

and and in all the physical aspect

1:08:08

of of the step up. As

1:08:10

huge as again, he was Burnley's. Burnley's

1:08:14

Defend Them Against Newcastle. Ah, and

1:08:16

it was. There was a i

1:08:18

think it was. Column.

1:08:20

Wilson was wrestling with some and couldn't win

1:08:22

the byline. He just thought this is absolute

1:08:24

mess. Much like there's so many be so

1:08:27

many moments like that where it. Is

1:08:30

not in the same level physically. And

1:08:32

I google voice seen as kill him

1:08:34

again as someone who clearly. Does

1:08:38

his homework and he recognized that from the step

1:08:40

up. Between. League Loan Championship

1:08:42

and yes is the biggest step up.

1:08:44

but he he he. Highly it's

1:08:46

the the things that you need to change about

1:08:48

his team and change them and that made of

1:08:51

such one of the best teams in illegal buff

1:08:53

muscles can happen in the premier league but I

1:08:55

think he has a free shot main and you'll

1:08:57

you'll know what he has to change about his

1:08:59

at Ipswich team and way to keep the same

1:09:02

Absolutely and congratulations to if six runs as well

1:09:04

as a second podcast and or I were to

1:09:06

it's got your promotion and slightly negative sense but

1:09:08

very well done For make a to the premier

1:09:10

league's congratulations to to Bromley who book that he

1:09:12

fl place to the first time in their history

1:09:15

after being silly whole most. In a penalty shootouts

1:09:17

Alison Road Tunica Screener I'm going or I'm from.

1:09:19

Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you

1:09:21

to for listening. Will be back on Thursday! As

1:09:33

you're listening to me season Athos I

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