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and 365 day returns. Hello

0:56

and welcome to the Game Football Podcast

0:58

from The Times. Today we're talking about

1:01

another thriller at the Burnabout and asking

1:03

just how Real Madrid always find a

1:05

way to win in the Champions League.

1:07

We'll also discuss the genius of Carlo

1:10

Ancelotti as well as the differing managerial

1:12

situations at Manchester United and West Ham.

1:15

And if that wasn't enough, we'll also

1:17

take a look at Crystal Palace's continued

1:19

improvement and ask, is Adam Wharton a

1:21

future England star? And joining

1:23

me, Tom Clark, for all of that we have the

1:26

chief correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin

1:28

Samuel, football correspondent for The Sunday

1:30

Times, Johnny Northcroft and a

1:32

former footballer who never played at the

1:34

Burnabout. But he did pick up

1:36

big wins at Borenwood, Barrow, Bradford, Barnet,

1:38

Berry and Burton Albion during a 14

1:41

year career. The

1:43

brilliant Gregor Robertson is here too.

1:46

You all right with that one? We'll play it win blue.

1:48

That's all for the final. Yeah, we can do that.

1:50

We'll do that one Gregor. We can do that for

1:52

the previous show for the final. Put the ball away,

1:54

mate. I will bet you're cool. I

1:57

promise to mention that. After a spawn sometimes, guys.

2:00

I promise to mention the fact that you played

2:02

at Wembley when we get back to Wembley. Maybe

2:04

the FA Cup final, who knows. But anyway, yes,

2:06

Real Madrid have made it to that final in

2:08

Wembley and it was another cracker in

2:11

their match against Bayern Munich. Lots of things for us

2:13

to talk about, chaps, but what did

2:15

you make of the game overall, Martin? Did Real

2:17

deserve to win overall? I think the best team

2:19

won. I think the best team won across the

2:22

two legs. I think Real Madrid were a better

2:24

team than Bayern Munich. Having

2:27

said that, for all of the

2:29

wonderful stadium and the atmosphere

2:31

and everything like that, it still takes Noy

2:34

at the Cup one in, basically, for them to

2:36

get back in the game. Because

2:38

at that stage, and probably until Thomas

2:42

Tuchel makes those late

2:44

changes, which were surprising, to

2:46

say the least, it

2:49

didn't look as if it was going to go their way. Having

2:53

said that, Vanissius Jr. is

2:55

the sort of player you want to see in the Champions League

2:57

final, or do you want to see in the Champions League final,

2:59

Tony Cruz? You want to

3:01

see in the Champions League final? Carlo

3:05

Ancelotti, I love. I

3:12

thought they were the best team, albeit

3:14

slightly for sure, it's the way they got back

3:16

in the game. I thought they were the

3:18

best team. You raised a couple of good points there that we'll

3:21

come on to, but Jonny, would you agree with Martin there on

3:23

the overall state of that semi-final? I

3:25

would, I loved the contrast between the two semis

3:27

actually, because Dortmund and

3:30

PSG were the opposite, they were

3:32

two kind of gauche teams who

3:34

were such an open game,

3:36

and you weren't quite sure why

3:39

both of them were in a semi-final, but

3:41

it was great watching the sort of, I

3:44

suppose, the sort of youthful

3:46

hopefulness of those players. But I thought

3:49

by Real Madrid, you saw really

3:53

experienced heavyweight football side. I know young

3:55

players are on the pitch, but there's

3:57

something about the know-how of

3:59

the clubs and maybe it comes from Carlo

4:01

Ancelotti and Real Madrid side and

4:04

Thomas Tuchel to a certain extent. I just thought

4:06

it was a really high class game in terms

4:08

of the sort of chess

4:10

aspect of it where nobody was phased

4:12

by the occasion. You knew Real Madrid

4:14

had the mental strength to not

4:17

be phased by being a goal down

4:19

with two or three minutes to go and it was a

4:21

bit of an epic really. But I do think the right

4:23

team won, yeah. And then like Martin,

4:25

he named some of the players that I'd

4:28

like, much as it would be nice to see Harry Kane in a Wembley

4:30

final when you think about the

4:32

prospect of the names Martin's

4:35

mentioned at Wembley, that's pretty good. Absolutely. Well

4:37

you talked about the burnabout at Martin and

4:39

I wanted to start with that because watching

4:41

this game and thinking back to perhaps the

4:43

Manchester City game of a few seasons ago

4:45

where it's all going well and all sort

4:47

of you concede one and then you seem

4:49

to concede again. There's something about the nature

4:51

of the game in that stadium that fascinates

4:53

me watching it on the television as the

4:55

only way I ever have done. What's it

4:57

like being in the stadium? Is there this

4:59

sense that it is this cauldron that

5:01

once you get on the back

5:04

foot it becomes quite intimidating for

5:06

opposition teams? Well yes and no

5:08

because it's like a lot of

5:10

football stadiums, great football stadiums in

5:12

Europe, Newcamp and Munich

5:15

Stadium, particularly the new one, which is

5:17

also quite close to the pitch, the

5:21

Mastala, which was a fantastic stadium,

5:23

the old Atletico Madrid

5:25

Stadium could be ferocious

5:28

but it's that combined

5:32

with the fact that it's Real

5:34

Madrid and that they've always

5:36

got some of the greatest players

5:39

in the world. They've invariably got

5:41

a top manager and

5:45

so it's the whole thing, it's the

5:47

whole package because I've

5:50

been there when Arsenal have done a job on

5:52

them, I've been there when Liverpool have done a

5:55

job on under Benitez and it can turn. the

6:00

other way very quickly as well. But

6:03

it's that stadium and

6:05

that thing. You know,

6:08

those players, the fact that anything

6:10

can happen, the fact that Tony Cruz can play

6:12

a pass that no one else in the field

6:15

can see. The

6:17

fact that Vinicius Jr. I

6:20

mean, you know, I'm not

6:22

going to compare Bappi and Vinicius

6:24

Jr. based on two games of football. But there

6:26

is a very strong case that the best footballer

6:29

in the world, when people talk about him, but

6:31

there's a very strong case of the best footballer

6:33

in the world at the moment, Vinicius Jr. And

6:35

that, you know, that that's the

6:38

guy that you would be paying money to see

6:40

if you could pay to watch any footballer every

6:42

single week, it would be him. So

6:47

it's all of that. It's all of

6:49

that. And this fantastic

6:51

atmosphere. And, you

6:53

know, you are right on top of the pitch in

6:56

the new stadium, as well as the average. The

6:59

last three times I've been to the Burnaby,

7:01

I think I've gone into a different entrance

7:03

every single time because the place is being

7:05

rebuilt. So the first thing you do is

7:08

turn up, go to where you used to

7:10

go in and pick your ticket up and

7:12

discover that it's, you know, well, it doesn't

7:14

exist anymore. And now you're walking around this

7:17

stadium trying to find it and trying not

7:19

to arrive at the same time as the way I'm

7:21

a good coach, because that's mental. And

7:23

that's how you get your pocket picked and 400 quid

7:26

nipped out your pocket. And I did about five

7:28

years ago. Different kind of intimidating. Yeah, different. Yeah,

7:30

yeah. And but

7:33

it's, it's a great stadium. And

7:35

you know, it's got a sense

7:38

of history. And but what,

7:40

you know, what I'm trying not to do

7:42

is to say it's an exceptional place. And

7:44

there's no way like it, because that's not

7:47

true. Yeah. Because I've been to, you know,

7:49

when Barcelona flying at New Camp, that's pretty

7:51

lively as well. And you can say

7:53

the same about Napoli

7:55

Stadium is pretty like, you know, Napoli Stadium,

7:57

which sort of explodes

8:01

the myth that you've got a running

8:03

track around it so you've got no

8:05

atmosphere because you know that's lively. Napoli

8:07

is lively. So there's great places. There

8:09

are great places all around the world

8:11

to watch football and I haven't watched

8:13

enough club football in South America to

8:15

start talking about what it's like when

8:17

Boca Juniors play River Plate and things

8:19

like that. Let's take the game podcast

8:21

on Shor's to South America. Yeah, absolutely.

8:24

But Johnny, what do you make of some of

8:27

the points Martin's made both about the Burnabout and

8:29

then some of the other stadiums that you might

8:31

have been and reported from? Yeah, I

8:33

mean there's a lot of special places and

8:35

you've got to mention Anfield as being the

8:37

British reference point. But you know, old Trafford

8:39

can be used to be back in the

8:42

day, it used to be quite a

8:44

special place and so on. There's

8:47

something, I mean the Burnabout is

8:50

in a kind of middle classish sort of

8:52

nice area of Madrid. But

8:54

it still feels very much part of the city. You

8:56

know, it's just there's a tram stop, a tube stop.

8:59

There's hotels and bars around and there's

9:01

a feeling of just

9:03

really being immersed in Madrid when

9:06

you're there and people arriving there and milling

9:08

around walking back to the bars afterwards,

9:11

which gives it a sort of special

9:13

character. It's

9:16

a magic. Karl Einzchlot used the word

9:18

magic last night and as Martin said,

9:20

it's a package. It's a stadium. It's

9:23

the white shirts. It's the players

9:25

that you're up against. It's hanging

9:27

in the air, this history that this

9:30

club does this. This is what this

9:32

club exists for and you're up against

9:34

that. I thought last night there was

9:37

a sort of strange chain of events that

9:40

wouldn't normally happen and maybe only happen because of

9:42

that stadium. But it starts with

9:44

the first substitution that Touko makes, which is

9:46

a bit odd. He goes into the back

9:48

three when he's been defending well

9:50

with the back four, puts on Kim, who had

9:53

a nightmare in the first game, ends

9:55

up losing a goal on that side to

9:57

lose the game. Then he makes a second substitution.

10:00

which he's taken Kane off. And

10:03

he's overthinking it. He's a fantastic

10:05

manager. But that's, for whatever reason,

10:08

it's occasion is it? I don't know. He

10:10

does something that's just a bit odd. And then

10:12

of course you've got the call with the offside

10:15

at the end, where, why's the

10:17

lines been put the flag off? This is what

10:19

I mean. I wonder when there's something that gets in

10:21

people's heads. But you see that happening.

10:24

It just happens in football, doesn't it? It

10:26

happens at Anfield on a European night when

10:28

slightly odd things might happen. The opposition makes

10:30

strange decisions. Maybe the officials make strange decisions.

10:33

It's emotion, it's that factor of football

10:35

that, someone

10:38

like Carl Anchill, with all he's seen, felt

10:41

it was special last night. Thomas Took have had

10:43

a certain look in his eyes, I felt, when the

10:45

first Real Madrid goal goes in, and he

10:48

suddenly realizes he's just taken Harry Kane, the cell

10:50

off the pitch, and oh my goodness. And

10:52

this is a frozen look. We should

10:54

say, like, he says they were

10:57

injured. Him

10:59

and Muciella. So, look, I know we can

11:01

scoff at that and think, yeah, it's Harry Kane, I'm sure he

11:03

could have got through it. And we were

11:05

also talking earlier about, you take him off

11:07

with, what, five minutes to go, and you think, there's five minutes

11:10

to go. There's 15 to go.

11:12

Yeah. There's always another, like, added

11:14

time. It's much more than it

11:16

used to be. And it's the same about

11:18

Kim, you know, he brought him on with 14 minutes to

11:20

go, that's 25 minutes, with a player on the pitch, you

11:22

wouldn't really want him for five minutes. So,

11:25

for me, the

11:27

Kane and Muciella, and Sanny, in

11:29

fact, you know, taking off all your biggest attacking threats,

11:32

is one thing, you know, because

11:34

of the what if, a bit extra time. But the biggest

11:37

mistake was going to a back three. Like,

11:39

being in that situation myself, where

11:41

it's just a change in all the relationships around

11:43

you. And you also, you mentioned Barton

11:45

Albion and Bury, you know, this isn't a League Two game.

11:48

They weren't just chucking it in the box. You didn't

11:50

need another big man in the mix. What

11:52

they needed was the same compact

11:55

defence and, you know, relationships around each other.

11:58

I thought they'd seen it off. I thought

12:00

it was that period. At the end of

12:03

that period is when Bayern Munich score. And

12:07

I'm thinking they've seen it off, they've

12:09

seen off that storm. And

12:12

they were invited by another storm. And what

12:14

does Antjolotti do? He puts on a winger

12:19

for a midfielder and he puts on a sort

12:21

of target style striker. The guy's going to get

12:23

in the six yard bond. He also swapped his

12:25

two midfielders immediately after they scored. Yeah, right. We

12:27

need fresh energy in there.

12:30

The substitutions were an enormous part of

12:32

the change in dynamic. And

12:34

of course there's nowhere chucking the

12:36

ball back to to Josel at the school

12:38

of the acolytes. That's the other strange event

12:40

that doesn't normally happen in a football match.

12:42

But you know he's in

12:45

that moment, he's in that stadium and

12:47

it happens. But he's interested and now

12:49

I'm sort of obsessed with stuff like

12:51

this. But when

12:56

the camera went on to the Munich

12:59

fans, which it didn't go

13:01

on the Munich fans very often because it was Spanish

13:03

direct to a Spanish feed and all about where I'm

13:05

going to drink the whole thing was about where I'm

13:07

going to drink the cupboard. But occasionally

13:10

it went on to the Bayern Munich

13:12

fans. And to

13:15

a man, you know, they're in

13:17

red, they're wearing red. I

13:19

don't understand because one of the things you go

13:22

into the burnout state, you're playing

13:24

this club with history, you're playing

13:26

this club with, as you say,

13:28

the white shirts, the personality. I

13:30

don't know why you go in anything

13:34

other than your own colors against that

13:36

white. To show we're Bayern Munich.

13:38

We've got history as well. You're playing Bayern

13:40

Munich tonight. You're playing one of the great

13:43

European clubs. Instead, they look like

13:45

every club. You know that

13:47

every kit, that black, every kit that

13:50

everyone wears. Everyone's got a black kit

13:52

because some design or some way decided

13:54

that a black shirt goes nice, best

13:56

with jeans and you can wear it

13:58

out in the evening or... whatever. And

14:01

so everyone's got this black every kit.

14:03

And you think they've

14:05

you are up against the full personality

14:07

of this football club. And that goes

14:09

right the way through from the ground

14:11

to the colours that they're wearing. And

14:14

obviously the players they've got. I'm not

14:16

saying you turn up in a red

14:18

shirt, you win the game. No, but

14:21

I do. I've never understood

14:23

why clubs are so happy

14:26

to just write off, sign

14:28

off all of their

14:30

history, all of their character and personality by

14:33

just looking like everyone else. That could have

14:35

been anyone at Bristol City. It could have

14:37

been anyone. You know what I mean? Because

14:39

every club has got this all black kit

14:42

somewhere in their third kit or their special

14:44

FA Cup full flame, ring flake kit or whatever

14:46

it is when we had them. Yeah, well speaking

14:48

about personality, because it's an interesting point and it

14:50

does feed into the burn about let's talk about

14:52

Carlo Ancelotti, a man with a distinctive look of

14:54

his own. Martin, he's someone that

14:57

you know and have interviewed before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:00

What is it about this guy? Is he,

15:02

I'm posing the question, is he maybe one

15:05

of the most successful yet underrated managers in

15:07

the game? I think he's underrated in as

15:09

much as I don't think he's underrated, but

15:11

if people really know the

15:13

football, I think he's underrated

15:15

in a sort of more general way

15:17

because people sort of have the idea

15:20

that he doesn't really do that much.

15:22

He just, you know, he pushes it

15:24

himself. Yeah, he sort of stands on

15:26

the touch line and occasionally raises

15:28

one eyebrow or whatever and you

15:31

know, sort of, um,

15:33

good at taking the ball out of the air in there.

15:35

Yeah, I'm killing it because people forget,

15:38

you know, there's a whole generation out there

15:40

that don't realise what a lovely footballer Carlo

15:42

Ancelotti was and, um,

15:45

and he sort of raises this

15:47

quizzical eyebrow sometimes and carries

15:50

on and whacking these minks or

15:52

whatever because what he'd really want is

15:54

20 fags and, um,

15:57

and people think he doesn't do anything. And

16:00

yet, if you look at the way

16:02

Real Madrid set up against Manchester City,

16:05

the team was set up so well. I don't know if

16:07

people would go, oh yeah, but Manchester City

16:09

could have scored five, but they didn't, did they? They

16:12

could have, but they didn't. And

16:15

one of the reasons they didn't is because Angelo, he knows

16:17

how to set a team up. And

16:19

it can't be a coincidence. You don't get to

16:22

win this number of Champions League trophies. You don't

16:24

get to win this number of league titles. Oh,

16:26

excellent. You

16:28

know, it doesn't happen by accident. I don't think

16:30

you get to win one by accident, by the

16:32

way. All this nonsense you read about Claudio

16:35

Añeira getting lucky. I don't believe

16:37

that either. But

16:40

Carlo is a much, much better

16:42

coach, much better manager. He has

16:44

a much stronger impact on

16:47

a team and philosophy

16:49

of what he wants to do. Real

16:52

Madrid don't play like,

16:56

I don't know, some of the Real Madrid teams have. It's

16:59

not as freewheeling

17:02

as some of the previous Real Madrid

17:04

teams have been. It is very, very

17:07

structured. And,

17:11

you know, I think the

17:13

best team won, but at the same time, they

17:15

could easily have lost that. And Claudio

17:17

finds a way of getting themselves. And

17:26

Carlo finds a way of getting themselves. Johnny,

17:28

Carlo and Charles. Yeah, look, I think we

17:31

live in the age of systems

17:33

and philosophies and brands

17:35

of football, blah, blah, blah. He's

17:38

underrated because he's from an

17:40

older school or a different

17:42

school to that. There isn't

17:44

an overwhelming, overwhelming philosophy. There's

17:48

an idea of football that's based

17:50

on these really small details and

17:53

making brilliant, detailed tactical

17:55

decisions and managing

17:57

an environment super. and

18:02

pragmatism I suppose, but it's not

18:04

unattractive pragmatism, but it's pragmatism. So,

18:06

you know, there's no school of enchil and

18:10

I think it's because of the age we live in and

18:12

the way people like to deconstruct football that they

18:14

might just find it hard to deconstruct what

18:16

he does, but what he does is he

18:18

wins, he makes genius decisions, he's

18:21

got an incredible football brain

18:23

and I'd recommend, and

18:26

there's a great Arigos Saki

18:28

book, The Immortals, I'd recommend reading

18:31

that for an insight in Carlo Ancelotti. It's

18:33

about Saki's career, but Ancelotti's a kind of

18:36

hidden star of the book because he's

18:39

this sort of dumpy midfielder with broken

18:41

knees that you know, Berlusconi's like, why

18:43

would we sign him? We can't sign

18:45

him and Saki's like, trust

18:48

me, sign him and we'll win everything.

18:51

And it's because Carlo and the pictures of the midfielder

18:53

could manage the game and just couldn't run, but just

18:55

had this. What

18:57

kind of a player was he? Was he like

18:59

a defensive midfield sitter type thing? With a bit

19:01

more class probably. Yeah, a bit more class. He

19:04

said to me once that the football

19:06

changed and that he couldn't play. He

19:09

said, he basically said it was easier

19:11

when he played. He said, when I played, he said

19:16

the ball came to you and you thought about what

19:18

you would do and then you would do it. He

19:20

said, and I could do that. He said, I could

19:22

move it on. He said, you can't do that

19:25

anymore. He said, now he said, if

19:27

you don't know where the ball

19:29

is going before it comes to

19:31

you, he said, you're dead. In

19:33

modern football, he said the speed of the game now,

19:36

he said, the midfielders I use that

19:39

play now at this level, they

19:41

have got to know where the ball is

19:44

going before it arrives. He said,

19:46

I didn't. He said, I could think about

19:48

what I did with it. You've got to

19:50

know before it turns out where it's going

19:52

to go next. He's a modern coach. He

20:00

knows the difference, he's not coaching

20:03

in old fashioned ways. He's an

20:05

older guy but he's not coaching

20:07

in an older way. He's

20:10

got an effect on players, that's

20:12

absolutely clear. Look at Dominic

20:14

Calvert, Lewin at Everton, an antelope manager,

20:16

suddenly becomes the player for a brief

20:19

window in his career. They

20:21

had the potential to be 20 goals a season

20:23

heading it in everywhere. That's

20:25

part of it as well. I don't

20:27

know if you saw before the game, as they're coming down

20:29

the stairs under the pitch, and

20:31

Kylo's shaking hands with everyone up in the

20:34

unit and shaking it. He's

20:36

a genuinely good lad, he's a really good

20:38

guy. He's a friendly

20:40

guy, warm guy, he comes

20:42

from a farming community in

20:45

Italy. His

20:48

father was a farmer but not a

20:50

big land holder. He

20:54

was a

20:56

small farmer and they

21:00

rented the land from

21:02

a landowner. The

21:05

big silo of grain that they harvested every year

21:07

and then the landowner would come in and put

21:10

his stick in the middle of it and everything to

21:12

the left was his and everything to the right. Kylo's

21:14

father got to keep. He

21:17

comes from a very humble

21:19

background. Has he always looked

21:21

as cool as he does? You want the

21:23

right. So, the thing is, Kylo does

21:26

look super cool now. He really does,

21:28

the old car that goes underneath a jacket and

21:30

stuff like that. When

21:32

everyone's bouncing up and down the touchline and

21:34

screaming or whatever, this guy who just sort

21:37

of stands there, he sort of draws

21:39

attention to himself in his ordinary eyebrows.

21:44

I've never forgotten to train the same hotel

21:46

as AC Milan before one of the Champions

21:48

League finals. Kylo was there in

21:51

the lobby of the hotel

21:54

and it's the day of the game, the afternoon of

21:57

the game when he's having a coffee and a cigarette

21:59

or whatever. and he's got his

22:01

cigarette and he's got his

22:04

white shirt on and he's got two buttons on

22:07

and the tie is slightly off to the light

22:09

and his jacket is hung over the back of

22:11

the chair but he's

22:13

sort of leaning on

22:16

it so that's going

22:18

to be creased and

22:20

then and if you'd walk through the

22:24

lobby of that place

22:26

and you'd point it at that guy sitting

22:28

there and you'd have said to someone, would

22:30

you think that it's you'd have looked

22:32

at him and gone. He's

22:34

probably the coach driver isn't he? I mean he's

22:36

like 10 minutes he's having a coffee or whatever

22:39

you know he's gonna do his tie up and

22:41

he's gonna put his jacket on and smarten himself

22:43

up a bit and he's gonna get behind and

22:45

it's the coach of AC Milan because

22:47

he's just a normal fellow. He's a normal

22:49

fellow he's just a really good lad. Just

22:51

a normal bloke. Just to conclude on Thomas

22:53

Tookall then obviously a man linked with lots

22:55

of jobs this summer leaving Bayern Munich. Does

22:58

this match and some of the things we

23:00

talked about those substitutions Gregor change how we

23:02

might view him going into this summer? I'm

23:05

not sure it should I mean you know you

23:08

heard the commentator saying like just

23:10

after probably before they even scored the goal that like

23:12

he's doing you know he's

23:14

doing himself huge favours here because they handled

23:17

it all very very well until that moment

23:19

and I'm sure like he's already said as

23:21

I say that he had to bring

23:23

those players off maybe

23:26

his PR machine will wheel into overdrive

23:28

now and try and explain why he put on

23:31

the change formation things like that too but like

23:34

I think he's one of the

23:36

best coaches around and any team

23:38

would be you know should

23:40

be happy to have him really. Thankfully I didn't

23:43

have time to go through the archives to find

23:45

whether any of you had ever written disparagingly about

23:47

Chotolu from his time at Stoke City anyone prepared

23:49

to own up at ever seeing him at Stoke

23:51

City and thinking God he'll never make a round

23:53

of dread play? No but I've read something this

23:55

morning which was pretty incredible. Chotolu will become the

23:57

fifth member of Mark Hughes Stoke squad for the

23:59

fifth 16-16 season to be in

24:01

a matchday squad for the Champions

24:03

League final. Oh, that's a good...

24:05

Eric, what's his name? Tuppermotting? No.

24:09

No? Peter Crouch, Bojan.

24:11

Bojan. Ibrahim Afali and Shaqiri. Shaqiri,

24:14

I've also read that I haven't

24:16

checked it but that he scored

24:18

more goals in a Champions

24:21

League semi-final than he did at the Britannia. Finally.

24:24

Or the Bet 365. Listen. There's hope for

24:27

all of us yet. Well done, Tshosh. Tshosh

24:29

too could argue. Well, I did the match-winning

24:31

thing. I bought a bloke when

24:33

I used to play. It just didn't work for me. Just

24:36

the wrong one. Very good. Very good.

24:38

Well, let's go from Tshoshalu to Killian

24:40

Mbappe, a striker

24:43

who didn't make it to the

24:45

Champions League final. His PSG side

24:47

beaten by Borussia Dortmund. And speaking

24:50

of slightly ragtag success stories, Borussia Dortmund

24:52

is a fantastic achievement, isn't it, to

24:54

make it to this Champions League final,

24:56

Johnny? Oh, it is. It's

24:58

great. And look, we've been extolling the

25:00

Bernabeu, but my goodness. It's

25:03

about the discipline. That's a support. That's going

25:05

to be great fun, seeing them at Wembley

25:10

and with the Madrid fans.

25:14

They were the better team. They were better over those

25:16

two games than PSG. Some

25:19

incredible performances. We spoke about

25:23

Santo in the first leg and he wasn't so imposing

25:26

in the second leg. But what a first-leg

25:28

performance. But Marcel Sabatsoff, we're

25:30

talking about players who were not so great

25:32

in the Premier League. How

25:35

good to see. But I mean, Matt's humbles was

25:37

the performance of arguably him and

25:39

Vanishes of the whole sort of semi-final

25:42

round, as it were. I mean, that

25:44

was a colossal performance in both boxes

25:46

and defensive leadership in an

25:49

era where there aren't many that can

25:51

defend or do it. I

25:53

thought Rudiger was amazing as well, by the way, from the

25:55

Madrid. But yeah, how awesome. I mean, my goodness. What

25:57

a classy guy as well. and

26:00

it's a great Eddyn Terzic as well, it's a

26:02

fantastic story, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Do you know

26:04

more about Eddyn Terzic? Yeah, well look, there was

26:06

a picture doing the rounds on Twitter

26:10

of him as a fan 12 years ago at

26:13

a Dortmund game. Strangely

26:16

looked older then than he does now,

26:18

but he's worked in a number of

26:20

roles for Dortmund's scout youth coach. He

26:24

might have even been an analyst at one point. Obviously

26:27

he took over as a number two and

26:30

there he is in a Champions League

26:32

final. And if you think about the fact that they

26:34

really should have won the Bundesliga last year as well

26:37

when they blew it on the final day, I mean

26:39

there's a body of work there from Dortmund.

26:42

Yeah, they have a challenge for the title in

26:44

Germany this year, but for

26:47

a club of their size and budget and

26:49

Ian Matz and I, you go on, there's

26:51

so many things you look at and you

26:53

just think, that's brilliant. The contrast between them

26:55

and PSG and now between

26:58

them and Real Madrid in the final is remarkable just

27:00

in the journey that a lot of these players have

27:02

taken. Full crook was played in the second tier two

27:04

years ago for Verde Bremen. 30's

27:07

career has just blossomed. Said

27:09

about Sancho, Sabotso was not

27:12

wanted by Bayern. Hummels

27:14

wasn't wanted by Bayern. Hummels as well played

27:16

in the 2013 final at Wembley. We should

27:18

go on with the Bayern. He's got a lot of 16 now,

27:20

aren't he, Hummels? I thought that'd be much more than 30 years.

27:24

Royce as well, I think he played in

27:26

that final too, the last time they made

27:28

a final and he's probably leaving in the

27:30

summer. We've said about Matz

27:32

and was, you know, so

27:34

many of them are kind of, they

27:36

were cast off almost. Which is

27:38

in stark contrast to the team

27:41

of PSG standard and Real

27:43

Madrid. And when you're talking about journeys

27:47

that clubs have been on, who not bushy adorned out

27:49

of the Champions League last season? I'm

27:53

not doing well on the quiz questions today. Graham

27:55

Potter's Chelsea. There you go.

27:57

There you are. Graham Potter, where's he going?

28:00

Go and put this Chelsea eliminated Bushy Adulment

28:02

from the Year 10th League last season. Just

28:04

joking. Anything is funny again. That's my favourite

28:06

one apart from the thing that was in

28:08

Bill Edgar this week, that the last time

28:11

when Forest Green Rovers played Ipswich

28:13

Town last season. Did

28:16

you read this? It was a fantastic

28:18

stat. When Forest Green Rovers played Ipswich

28:20

last season, Ipswich were below

28:22

Forest Green Rovers. Wow. Who will

28:25

next season, Forest Green

28:27

Rovers will start life in the National League,

28:29

Ipswich will take start life in the

28:31

Premier League. And that's why the pyramid is

28:33

wonderful. It's all right when you're doing the

28:35

quiz questions when I do. I get in

28:37

trouble, honestly. Well, I just... Why? Because you

28:39

talk just paranoid. Just

28:42

because... Just to very quickly finish on that

28:44

map. ...coral green... ...clear prospect.

28:47

Well, someone with not very grim career

28:49

prospects, Killian Mbappe. A

28:52

huge, a huge superstar and a big game player.

28:54

There can be no doubt about that. But he

28:56

didn't necessarily step up in this game. Johnny, do

28:58

we think this is the final kind of knockings

29:00

of this PSG era finally getting to him? We

29:02

need him to get out, don't we? We need

29:04

him to get out to get to another club

29:06

and start seeing the wonderful players that he is.

29:08

Yeah, I think so. He wasn't at his best,

29:10

but I mean, a guy that's scored

29:13

a World Cup final hat-trick or whatever

29:16

it was at the age of 12

29:18

is pretty... He's a pretty good big

29:20

game player. It's just an off-night. And

29:22

yeah, I think he's so

29:24

much the finished Uber player

29:26

and a lot of those PSG players are,

29:30

you've got to wait five years for them to come

29:32

good and there's some brilliant talent there, but it's

29:34

a pleasant development and they're not going

29:36

to develop quickly enough for him. I

29:39

always hate when you say it. It's like, kind of a

29:42

waste of talent, but it does feel like it's

29:45

been the wrong platform for his talent. I

29:47

know it's easy for me to say it was his

29:49

hometown club. It was a huge project, but I

29:52

don't know, for seven years for him to

29:54

have been there. For long time, isn't it? Yeah, a long,

29:56

long time. And I don't

29:59

know, I just feel like... Does he go to

30:01

Real Madrid? They've got Chosolou, they've got Vinicius,

30:03

they've got Rodrigo. This is

30:05

the only thing that, you

30:07

know, I can see the argument he needs to

30:09

get out of Paris Saint-Germain and it certainly wasn't

30:12

a performance that would

30:14

make you think anything else. Whether

30:17

he needs to be around Madrid, Centreford, bearing

30:19

in mind they're getting to the Champions League

30:21

final and they will be favourites for the

30:23

Champions League final even though I think that

30:25

Dortmund are organised and causing the

30:27

problem. Whether

30:30

he needs to be where Madrid's

30:32

Centreford, whether that's

30:34

what we want, is

30:37

another matter really because you'd like to see it

30:39

spread around a little more. You

30:43

know, you'd like to see him somewhere else

30:45

to bring another team up,

30:47

you know, but it looks

30:49

like it will be where Madrid does it. Yeah, I'll take him

30:51

at Lincoln, I'll start the crowd for him now. If

30:54

you've got views on where you think Kylian Mbappe should

30:56

end up next season or perhaps you've got your own

30:59

memories of being at the Bernabeu, you can get in

31:01

touch with me, tomlottclarkatatimes.co.uk. But for

31:03

now, stick with us, we're talking about Crystal Palace and Manchester

31:05

United next. As

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you're listening to me, Daisy, Apple's iPhone

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shipping and 365 day returns. Hi,

32:02

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Off air with Jane and Fee is

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Well, the surprise is we don't yet know what's

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crosswires.live for tickets and more information. Hello

33:10

and welcome back to the Game Football Podcast.

33:12

I'm Tom Clark, and today I'm joined by

33:14

Martin Samuel, Johnny Northcroft, and Gregor Robertson. Now,

33:16

it's Thursday, chaps. It feels like a long time

33:18

since Monday, but we're heading back there to discuss

33:20

two of the bigger issues of the week. And

33:22

let's start with Crystal Palace's 4-0 win against

33:25

Manchester United. It comes to

33:27

something for Manchester United in their season when my colleague

33:29

Joe Hare, who is a Crystal Palace fan of the

33:31

most cynical variety, said, I think we'll beat them, to

33:33

be honest. He not sure if they beat them. I'm

33:35

not sure he thought they'd beat them 4-0. But

33:38

let's start with Palace before we get into United and

33:40

Eric Tenharg. Gregor, this

33:42

is quite a remarkable transformation, isn't

33:44

it, from Oliver Glazner in such a short space

33:46

of time. I know we will talk a lot

33:49

about Palace's. What do they do moving on from

33:51

Roy? Will they end up coming back to a

33:53

manager like Roy because they won't get someone in

33:55

who can make these players work? Well,

33:57

he clearly can. He's won against Liverpool.

34:00

West Ham Newcastle draw with Fulham and now

34:02

beating Manchester United 4-0 in five games. Yeah,

34:04

his impact has been remarkable

34:07

really. And he's changed the style as well. He

34:09

has. I was at the... I

34:11

think Burnley was his first game. I think I

34:13

was at that game and you saw it immediately.

34:17

They played 20, 30 yards higher up the pitch

34:20

straight away from the off and they pressed high. Just

34:23

much more compact. Really clear. There

34:26

was clarity in what their approach was. It was a 3-4-3 or

34:28

3-4-2-1 and really compact everywhere. Front

34:34

foot defending as opposed to defending the

34:36

box. They

34:41

didn't even have, you know, at least an easy

34:43

then. They didn't have the really... They're

34:45

kind of... They're shining

34:47

stars. Jordan Ayu stepped up that day I

34:49

remember. And

34:52

Adam Wharton, they've got a player

34:54

with a brilliant future. From

34:56

the start you saw it. You kind of... The

34:59

way he gets in the ball and looks

35:02

forward and picks

35:04

out runners or curls balls in the box

35:07

for Mateta who's obviously been reborn

35:09

as well under Glazner. He's

35:12

been a massive sign for them.

35:15

But just as I say, I think it's just about

35:18

the... You know, the Munoz as well is another one.

35:20

The right battle. He seems perfect for that... Love that

35:22

he has his shirt tucked in and his shorts pulled

35:24

up quite high. He looks a bit like Simon Cowell

35:26

on the football pitch but I really enjoy it. But

35:29

it seems like that's a system that really suits

35:31

him. There's a question about Ty Mitchell whether... He's

35:33

done really well but whether he's quite got enough

35:35

going forward to be that long-term solution

35:37

in that role. But

35:39

for everyone else, for Elisey and Eddie to be... They almost

35:41

have like two number 10s. It's

35:44

perfect for them. Even

35:47

Richards at the back is playing his best football

35:49

for the club. So I think... And

35:52

they're scoring the kind of goals that we

35:54

associate with modern football. Jonny mentioned it earlier

35:56

talking about Carlo Ancelotti. This desire for nice,

35:59

beautiful on-the-eye football. goal they scored at

36:01

Anfield against Liverpool was a wonderful goal

36:03

pinch. Classic modern football goal, pinched it

36:05

in midfield, turned it over, overlapping fullback,

36:07

cut back, tapping, beautiful stuff. Yeah

36:10

I mean if what Gregor says about playing 30

36:13

yards further up the pitch when you've got forwards

36:15

like those and Eze

36:17

and Alicia suddenly receiving

36:19

the ball in the final third, I mean

36:22

what a difference that makes. I

36:25

won't forget Eze's performance at Arsenal this year

36:27

in the five-year-old defeat which he was talked

36:29

about on the pod and he was sensational.

36:31

He's picking the ball up in his own

36:33

half because that's where Palace were. So

36:37

I mean Glaston obviously comes from the

36:39

Ranjuk school, his

36:41

Frankfurt team was super

36:43

intense, super pressing, very similar to what we're

36:45

seeing now, very dynamic and

36:48

it really suits when you've got, when you

36:51

can put two number turns on the pitch. It's

36:55

brilliant but Wharton, I just wonder if

36:57

Gareth Southgate missed a trick because, or

37:01

maybe it's just timing but he

37:03

used those March internationals

37:05

to have a look at Maynard which was

37:07

quite right and he's fantastic but I

37:10

wonder if he might regret not. I

37:12

think I'd look at Wharton as well. Is there

37:15

still time? Gregor's written an excellent profile about him

37:17

today in which you posed a question but said

37:19

maybe a bit late and then you

37:21

know me and the editors have mischievously put a headline

37:23

on it saying, nah you could make the Euros anyway.

37:25

You've not seen it yet. No

37:29

but it's not a discussion, it is an interesting

37:32

talking point isn't it? A lot of people saw

37:34

this matchup, Maynoo against Wharton and went hang on

37:36

we've gone for the wrong, which is the

37:38

classic modern football overreaction. One kind

37:40

of recency bias too because we

37:43

remember what we thought

37:45

after Maynard's performance. They're different players

37:47

as well. They are. Maynard's someone

37:49

who can really carry the ball,

37:52

he's very good defensively. Wharton's played

37:54

as a number 10 in his

37:56

youth but because England

37:58

are so short of people playing. and that kind

38:00

of holding the field role. And

38:02

he's got a real bite in the tackle as well.

38:04

I think there's a stat where since

38:07

his full debut against Chelsea, no

38:10

one's made more tackles and interceptions combined

38:12

than him, no other Premier League midfielder.

38:15

So it's like he is really good at stepping

38:17

out, you know, jumping to make a challenge.

38:21

But he's also really class, just kind of the kind of player where,

38:24

you know, he's always got time and space and

38:26

he's got a wand of a left foot. And

38:29

the little pocket of space he always picks up, he

38:31

plays on the right. Will Hughes has also

38:33

been excellent recently from Dallas. So he's got two

38:35

left footed matilders. Because he plays on the right,

38:38

you have to get the ball off Munoz or someone and

38:40

that little inside pocket on the right opens up and

38:43

he just curls an in-swinger into the box,

38:45

which we saw for the third goal. Tyrant

38:48

Mitchell swept it in. He's

38:51

brilliant at that. So he's got both sides to his

38:53

game. I still think it

38:55

would be a big ask for him. I

38:58

think it's a bit late, yeah. Martin, Adam Morton,

39:00

too late for an England push. I'd

39:03

say too late, really, because you don't know what

39:05

can happen in the last two or three

39:07

games with injuries. You know, Palace

39:09

are the formed team. But

39:12

we've had this conversation on here before

39:15

and international

39:17

football, the opportunities are so

39:20

rare and so

39:22

few and far between that if

39:24

someone has a good game, a

39:26

good half sometimes, that's

39:29

it. We've had a look

39:31

at him and he didn't let us down and

39:33

he's in. So you've got

39:35

all of that to overcome. The

39:38

fact that Kobe Mine, who

39:40

we didn't think was going to get a chance at

39:42

one stage, I think, oh, he's going to go with

39:44

Jordan Henderson. And then events

39:46

sort of fell for

39:49

him and he ended up playing.

39:53

And he ended up involved in both matches, didn't he? Plus

39:57

the comparison between them is unfair. I

40:00

tell you the thing that is so dysfunctional

40:03

and all the things we just said about glasner's palace

40:06

Yeah, that's the contrast between that and I'm

40:09

referencing the kind of social jokey me. Yeah, I

40:11

know Knee-jerk reaction type

40:13

thing. There's no there's no, you know reason

40:15

they can't both be in the squad I

40:17

think I think I think that I think

40:19

that this is where big club bias comes

40:21

in but in an understandable way because I

40:23

think The argument against putting water in would

40:25

be it's just not enough time to understand

40:27

whether He can just handle the

40:29

environment because the next internationals are actually warm-ups

40:31

You're in the squad if you're playing in the

40:34

next ones, but he can but he can name

40:36

a big a squad and then yeah Then he

40:38

reduces it after those warm-ups. Yeah. Yes

40:40

granted, but I mean that's kind of his

40:42

yeah, okay But well,

40:45

I guess the thing at least with my

40:47

new and he's looking at the

40:49

fact He can he can hack it as it

40:51

were in the pressured environment of playing for Manchester

40:53

United And I know fans of other clubs hate

40:56

big club bias and I

40:59

understand that but I think that's

41:01

what comes in the manager's thinking It's like I

41:03

know that he can handle that level of scrutiny

41:05

and I don't know This

41:08

guy might just need a bit more time. I think

41:10

it's timing rather than rather than the kind of yeah

41:13

even his experience because I

41:15

remember writing when Calvin Phillips was in

41:17

the championship that it didn't matter that he's putting in the

41:19

championship He should have been putting that in

41:21

the squad and he can it what he

41:23

made his England debut before he made his Premier League

41:25

debut Oh, yeah, just one promotion. Yeah, and then by

41:27

the end of that season he was England's player of

41:29

the year He played in the Euros final like

41:33

I think it's just the timing. It's too close

41:35

to the to the Euros to chuck them

41:37

in now, yeah If

41:40

you know, I mean you The

41:43

sort of players that get chapped in, you

41:45

know this light are some you know, turn

41:47

it forwards, you know So, you know someone

41:49

who is Yeah,

41:53

it's just an astonishing game changer rather

41:55

than someone that would have to be

41:57

a cog in the wheel

42:00

He's got the cops in the wheel. He knows

42:02

which ones that he can trust

42:04

and I know Absolutely

42:06

get everyone's point here about big club bias

42:08

and how much people hate it or whatever

42:11

But it's undeniable that if you're a manager

42:13

and you're looking at someone you're looking at

42:15

a kid You're thinking if he

42:17

gets in he can get in the team every single

42:19

week at Manchester United and probably mine

42:22

who? Once he got has got

42:24

in any team He hasn't got out of it basically

42:26

they haven't run out get him out of it So

42:28

he got into the Manchester United team haven't got him out of

42:30

it yet Um well

42:32

once he can do that and he got an England team

42:34

and now you're looking at people saying well He should start

42:36

and you know it could be the same with him in

42:38

England They can get in the team and just not get

42:41

out of it And

42:44

you know that does mean something to a manager that

42:46

you know that this is a kid that can Go

42:49

out in front of nearly eighty thousand

42:51

people and not be fazed by a

42:53

notch Lincoln Alex

42:56

used to say the thing about you know some

42:58

people sort of Overwhelmed by the jersey

43:00

and other people put it on and right

43:02

this is I've always made love You know

43:04

I was made to wear this shirt You

43:07

know and I'm mine who looks

43:09

like that second sort of person Well you

43:11

just back to Wharton you do have to

43:13

say that it's been extraordinarily transition

43:15

when you consider that He

43:18

came on deadline day. Yeah You

43:20

know two weeks late. I think that was five

43:22

five days before he turned 20 Two

43:26

weeks later Roy Hodgson took ill new manager

43:28

came in and he started every game Since

43:31

his debut which was a tricky debut against Brighton where

43:33

he gave away the ball for the third goal They

43:35

lost four one Roy Hodgson was getting pilloried from the

43:37

stand You know they were in a

43:40

relegation battle It looks like they were gonna be and

43:42

he started every game since and it's hard to

43:44

think of many players Who's made that step from the

43:46

championship quite and seamlessly yeah, I'll go back to James

43:48

Madison actually Probably that's a long

43:51

way although But they've done it

43:53

so quickly I mean the Palace have got Alicia and Izzy

43:55

and there's so many Jared Bow

43:57

and so many players Who've made the step up?

44:00

very successfully, but to have done it so quickly at

44:02

such a young age says a lot about him. Yeah,

44:04

do you mention Eze? Johnny, you're not prepared to put

44:06

Anne Morton in the squad, but you said a few

44:08

weeks ago in this very room, Eze

44:10

was your ballter back then, but he's straight in

44:12

now, isn't he? All day long. Oh, absolutely, yeah.

44:14

Yeah, we're just bringing him on

44:17

in any circumstance, so you keep starting him.

44:19

I just think he's one

44:22

of the best players in the country, bar none.

44:24

And if we're talking about trying

44:26

to keep Kylie and Mbappe away

44:28

from Real Madrid to spread talent around, there's

44:30

a big part of me that just thinks,

44:32

it's just pass a

44:34

law that means Eze and Alicia

44:36

stay at Crystal Powers. We need

44:38

strength like that around the league.

44:41

They make that club and that team so distinct.

44:43

Honestly, I wish this podcast was filmed so that

44:45

listeners could see the joy in your face when

44:47

you talk about Eberich. Eze, it really is a

44:49

wonderful thing to see. Now, we must talk about

44:52

Manchester United, and listener Barry Lucas got in touch

44:54

with me after Monday's game, said, Tom, you're going

44:56

to have a field day on Thursday. For it's

44:58

worth, in my opinion, 10 hogs should go now.

45:00

We're not going to win the FA Cup. In

45:02

fact, the match should be called off and City

45:04

handed the cup the proceeds of ticket sales given to

45:07

charity. Give the manager, new

45:09

manager, some time to assess the squad and be

45:11

there for the summer break transfers and sales. I

45:13

know there have been injuries, but so have other

45:15

clubs. I expected to lose maybe 2-1 or 1-0,

45:18

but 4-0, Casa Miro, so embarrassing. You should pack

45:20

it in and go far away. Can it get

45:22

much worse? Barry, I think it probably

45:24

can. But let's talk about Manchester United

45:26

and that first question that Barry was asking, because that

45:29

was one of the things we were talking about after

45:31

this match. Eric Denharg, for

45:33

a long time and as Paul Hurst was writing on

45:35

Times give

46:00

the man the FA

46:02

Cup final. You've got to

46:04

give him this far. You give the man the

46:06

FA Cup final. And then, look, we

46:10

were talking earlier and I said, look, I think it

46:12

would be madness to get rid of the Jeng Haag

46:16

before the FA Cup final. I also think

46:18

it would be madness to have Jeng

46:20

Haag taking you into next season, given what

46:23

we've seen week in week

46:26

out for Menchie United. But I

46:29

do think, you know, you don't change now. I

46:31

mean, that's Barnsley stuff, isn't it? Barnsley, second-hand manager,

46:33

a couple of the playoffs. You've got to knock

46:35

that out in the playoffs, you know. So,

46:38

I mean, you can't go down that route with them.

46:40

They're going to be sensible people.

46:45

But at the same time, you just look at that the

46:48

other night and just think,

46:52

I didn't expect 4-0, but

46:54

3-0, I expected. I

46:57

mean, honestly, seriously, we were talking

46:59

about it before, one of my lads, he's

47:01

in a league of results prediction and there's

47:03

a bit of money on it and he's

47:05

about a point off the top and he's

47:08

getting quite excited about this and he had 3-0

47:10

Crystal Palace. And he said,

47:13

would you reckon I'd say I'd agree with you?

47:15

You know, and you

47:19

shouldn't be sitting there thinking Manchester

47:22

United are going to get beat 3-0 by Crystal

47:24

Palace and, you know, he thought he was a

47:26

little bit out there, you know, like in his

47:28

little league, he's going to be the only person

47:31

who's going 3-0 Crystal Palace. But

47:33

it probably wasn't. It probably wasn't.

47:35

I bet there was a few people at

47:37

3-0 Crystal Palace because they looked 3-0 better

47:39

than Manchester United at the moment. Head

47:41

to head, that team looks 3-0 better than

47:43

Manchester United. Yeah. Well, part of the reason

47:46

for me reading out Barry's email is

47:48

that as a Manchester United fan, I thought it was interesting

47:50

to get his view because I find

47:52

as an editor on a sports desk of a

47:54

national newspaper that a lot of people get in

47:57

touch sometimes talking about the media general bias

47:59

against Manchester United. Manchester United and I often

48:01

have fairly constructive conversations with them. I

48:03

had people, when they were winning everything,

48:05

I covered Manchester United when they were

48:07

winning everything, I was there when they

48:09

won the treble, I was there

48:11

for all of Manchester United. I used

48:13

to have people coming up to me and going,

48:16

you've got it in Manchester United, and you're like,

48:19

what are you talking about? Nothing

48:21

but good things about Manchester every

48:23

now and then, say Roy Key

48:25

might snap somebody's leg in half

48:27

and you write a piece that

48:29

says, that wasn't good. People

48:31

still thought you had it in for Manchester United.

48:33

Yeah, but I wanted to talk about that in

48:35

the age, and we've touched on it throughout the

48:37

show about modern football and how we consume it.

48:39

Is there something with Manchester United, because they were

48:41

so good, and there have been many

48:44

teams that have been good, Arsenal and Navenga, and towards

48:46

the end of his career it all changed. Liverpool before

48:48

that, which was before my time, but I'd be interested

48:50

to know whether Liverpool in the 90s was all very

48:53

reflective of their success in the 80s and before.

48:56

Is it because of the success that certain

48:58

fans may be thinking that everyone's out to

49:01

get us, when as Barry himself says as

49:03

a Manchester United fan, there's not necessarily much

49:05

positive that we could talk about. Johnny, what

49:07

do you think about this idea around Manchester

49:09

United and the media in

49:11

general? Well, I mean, one thing when

49:14

Mark was talking about the fact that

49:16

City fans think everyone hates them at

49:18

the moment, because they're so successful, and

49:20

there may be something about that success

49:22

mentality that you get frustrated

49:24

if it's not 100% praise. But no, the

49:30

United situation reminds me a bit of

49:32

Liverpool when I started covering Northwest

49:35

football, which was around 2001,

49:37

who he was in charge. And actually Liverpool were

49:39

much, much better than Man United are now. But

49:42

he seemed embattled, even though things were going

49:44

quite well. There was a pressure on them.

49:46

He talked a lot about all

49:49

these ex-players in the media, and it makes

49:51

my job impossible. And there

49:54

are echoes of that. And I think it just comes from

49:56

the scale of the club. Big

50:00

objective. Manchester is an extraordinary

50:03

excruciating, I don't use

50:05

car cash, isn't it? I mean, and it

50:08

just keeps going on. And if you think

50:10

about it now, at the very moment they

50:12

get the

50:14

red knight in Jim Ratcliffe coming in to

50:17

save the club, which

50:19

takes about six months anyway, so that gets

50:21

drawn out, which is agony for fans.

50:24

At that very moment where it's

50:26

like right now it's about the

50:28

long-term plan. Now it's about finally

50:30

making sensible decisions. They then

50:32

appoint a sporting director who still

50:35

are gardening leave, can't work for another

50:37

year, you know. The chief executive

50:40

hasn't arrived yet and

50:43

now the manager's suddenly doing so badly

50:45

that we're asking this question. Because I'm

50:47

sure the idea when they took over

50:49

and they're still clinging to it was,

50:52

let's be methodical about this, let's

50:54

do our British cycling style, you

50:57

know, big survey of what we need to

50:59

do and then we'll make the decision. And

51:01

we'll wait for the chief, we'll wait for the chief

51:03

exec in place, we'll wait for the sporting director. But

51:05

the sporting director he's not there,

51:07

the chief exec's not there. And in the

51:09

same time the manager's now taking it along. And

51:11

it's not taking along. And the manager's now

51:13

doing so badly that it's becoming that crisis point

51:16

where you're looking at it thinking, how,

51:18

you know, yeah, give him the final, but could

51:20

you give him a transfer window? Could

51:23

you give that club any more sort of

51:25

loss of prestige and morale? Can

51:30

you expect Coby Maynard to develop any

51:33

more, you know, if he has to play

51:35

another month of that

51:37

dysfunctional football? It's

51:40

just that, yeah, it's a fascinating

51:42

story. Yeah,

51:44

I think it's interesting, Johnny's point about the kind

51:46

of ex-players in the media thing, because as I

51:48

say, when I was growing up watching football, it

51:50

was Alan Hansen and Mark Lawrence and things. And

51:52

now as a journalist, Gary Neville, Rio Ferdinand, Paul

51:55

Scholl. I was just about to say that what

51:58

people forget is the pressure that Liverpool wants. was

52:00

because Liverpool had just been the

52:03

great team, the dominant force in

52:05

English football. So all of

52:07

the people on television and lots of

52:09

people writing in the newspapers and everything

52:11

like that were all ex-Liverpool players, all

52:14

saying this is going wrong, this

52:16

is going this, it wasn't like

52:18

this, they've lost this and they

52:20

haven't done it. And it was

52:22

Hanson and Lawrence and the difference

52:24

was, when Alan Hanson or

52:27

Mark Lowenson or any of his had a

52:29

go about Gerard Houlias

52:31

for instance. It

52:34

wasn't then edited and

52:37

released as 25 TikTok

52:40

snippets on YouTube and

52:42

on Instagram and on

52:44

the back page of every newspaper which bizarrely

52:47

now you've got some media

52:50

outlets that quote Gary

52:52

Neville and Jamie

52:54

Carroll that we've talked about,

52:56

Gary Neville, Paul Golds,

52:58

we have a name like him, quote

53:01

them more than they quote their

53:03

own people. They rather Gary Neville

53:05

said, Manchish and I are rubbish than

53:07

the person who's reporting the match say,

53:09

Manchish and I are rubbish. So

53:12

you've got this constant thing that

53:15

must feel like

53:18

there's this maelstrom around the

53:20

club the whole time where they can't do

53:22

right for doing wrong. And I've

53:25

got a degree of sympathy for

53:27

them on that, say like the

53:29

Mason Greenwood thing which is a

53:32

really, really hard situation for

53:34

them to try to manage.

53:36

And in the end, whatever

53:38

they did, somebody was going

53:40

to say, well, I haven't done this quite right, I haven't

53:43

got this quite correct, they should have done it like this

53:45

or they should have done it like that. And so, and

53:50

because we're in the modern media world,

53:53

there's just so much of it. You

53:55

know, this podcast didn't exist when Liverpool

53:58

were, you know, were They

54:00

named Mark clone son and on an

54:02

aunt some were pontificate in every week

54:04

on much as I in and yeah

54:06

no telling plate when I could use

54:08

debate on. That. Note:

54:11

The. Poker site listed under Siege

54:13

photos didn't exist, your license overdose or

54:15

similar podcast yet It absolutely Greg I

54:17

want. What do you think about these

54:19

scenarios? Well cause you know this. Take

54:21

another thing. Big team who had great

54:23

success recently. Chelsea is another thing you

54:25

been incredibly critical of. We'll have. What

54:27

a joke. All this money, eccentric set

54:29

to. I'm sometimes in

54:31

soon fans reactions that because we we

54:34

talked hear about. Brilliant Champions League

54:36

and Johnny To said all as a analysts

54:38

I should stay at Pele since we want

54:40

things to be good them we we want

54:42

them to be good, we want a sense.

54:44

We would rather if Chelsea and Manchester United

54:46

were both great because then we wouldn't be

54:48

going. Got bloody hell let's hope awesome guy

54:50

in the cycle like the end of the

54:52

season cause we'd have a four five team

54:54

title race and is another yeah I mean

54:56

less less puzzle or really to assemble venison

54:58

as the. As the management of

55:00

the Civil Courts. Yeah, I like these are things

55:02

that we don't really have the expertise and but

55:04

he can see when. Neither their valuable

55:07

asset for that a fundamentally yes I

55:09

he still sees orders came in with

55:11

with no no expertise and and Titus

55:13

know that's what I really nailed. The

55:15

are criticizing them because he won't chelsea

55:17

to be good at football or what

55:19

are you better know to a good

55:22

people who are nice having a blanket

55:24

since yeah you want every hole slice

55:26

to be. Ten. Homes

55:28

always going for a line neck and

55:30

neck. he account yeah no that's what

55:32

you want you. You want to let

55:34

them eat like a total lies. That

55:36

most disappointing thing about this Total Ice

55:38

is that Liverpool have to tell that

55:41

might disappoint. In thing about the battle

55:43

between fourth and fifth is it looks

55:45

like Aston Villa gonna get it. Although

55:47

I'm like yeah no that's you're disappointed

55:49

by Young You really want the competition

55:51

or to sign. Sonic. vote

55:54

for too much coverage as a do think

55:56

with the that for the hype machine around

55:58

these big clubs a must maybe where they're

56:00

culpable, they invite it on themselves. It happened

56:03

at United already, Jim Ratcliffe's in

56:05

town, and there's been a hype around. The toilets

56:07

are dirty. Yeah, there's been a hype around what's

56:09

going to happen. There's a hype every time a

56:11

young man United striker scores a

56:14

gold, you know what I mean? There's a hype

56:16

around Chelsea, and the owners fed it. They created

56:19

it. They wanted it. If I think back to Liverpool in the

56:21

day, yeah, there was probably a

56:23

hype created by Houlay, who was trying

56:27

to position himself as a bit of a messiah figure. There's

56:30

a cycle that these clubs, I suppose, do... They

56:33

do feed, so they're monetising it. And

56:36

they monetise it. Let's be honest, it works

56:38

both ways, absolutely. Yeah. It's

56:42

hard to have sympathy for a football club

56:45

that's being run so badly, essentially, for

56:47

me. I have great sympathy for teams

56:49

that look dysfunctional or poorly coached or

56:52

players who are having a really bad time. I

56:55

have sympathy for watching Chelsea early in the

56:57

season, because I just felt there

56:59

was a lot of young guys being thrown into something, they're looking

57:01

around at each other and seeing probably

57:04

guys with the same sort of mindset

57:06

as them, as this is new and big and a

57:08

little bit daunting, and they probably need a bit of

57:10

leadership, and it wasn't there. So I

57:12

had sympathy for them. I had

57:14

no sympathy for billionaires who come in

57:17

and think they're going to disrupt the

57:19

system. Absolutely make up. When

57:21

you look at Chelsea now, so

57:24

Chelsea finally beginning to get it going a

57:26

little bit towards the end of the season,

57:28

and there is a chance they could be

57:30

in Europe. And I'm often

57:32

watching football with a couple of Chelsea fans.

57:34

And I've watched them sitting on

57:37

the sofa, squaring

57:40

at the television, and I usually do all my things.

57:43

And I've

57:45

watched it all season, and now they're suddenly quite

57:47

positive about the performances and then you pick up

57:49

the paper and it says, they're

57:52

probably going to not be allowed into Europe,

57:54

even if they do qualify, because the sums

57:56

aren't going to add up, because you're not

57:58

allowed to use that amortise. process

58:00

that they've got away with in the Premier

58:03

League, you're not allowed to use that

58:05

in Europe. 55

58:07

minutes we managed and you've managed to sneak

58:09

up all the time. But I'm not going

58:11

to, you know, it's anchoring actually. This

58:14

is amortisation. And

58:16

so you look at that and think, and what genius

58:18

didn't spot that one? So

58:20

what genius on the board of directors didn't look

58:22

at that and think, well, we can amortise this

58:25

in the Premier League, but

58:27

if we actually achieve our ambition of

58:30

getting into Europe, I don't

58:32

allow you to spread the money over eight years.

58:34

I thought they caused a loophole quicker. Yeah, they

58:36

did. But either way, they're not looking

58:38

and think, they may cause this loophole.

58:40

They might, yeah. Yeah. I

58:42

mean, they could have paid that. Right, call it no

58:45

more loopholes, no more. You know what I mean? So

58:47

that is an executive decision. That has nothing to do

58:49

with those priors. Also, it's madness. It's

58:51

madness, yeah. Madness, I'm going to play an eight

58:53

and then your contract. Absolutely. I don't know what

58:55

they're thinking. Anyway, another executive decision that we need

58:57

to talk about from earlier in the week is

58:59

West Ham's decision to part company with David Moyes,

59:01

one of the more successful manager of recent years.

59:03

Greg, we talked about it briefly as the news

59:05

was coming out as we were recording Monday's show.

59:08

Martin, as a West Ham fan, but also

59:10

as a journalist, this feels like

59:12

a slightly healthier break than the one we're

59:15

envisaging between Man's United and Eric Tenhargues. Well,

59:17

that's the same one as with Sam Alidash.

59:19

Well, at the end, the

59:21

man's contract runs out. You shake hands and

59:23

you infer exchange, no worry. So

59:27

West Ham have been very good for David Moyes. David Moyes

59:29

has been very good for West Ham. If

59:32

the club believes it's run its course, and it quite

59:35

possibly has, okay. You

59:37

shake hands. No one gets sacked or anything like that.

59:40

There's been stuff about the

59:42

fact that they were talking to other people

59:44

before, but then they

59:46

get offered a contract earlier in the

59:48

season, which didn't get taken up. So

59:52

I don't think it's the biggest crime to

59:54

actually appoint the new manager, to have the new

59:56

manager before the other one's gone out. And

1:00:00

that's it. I don't feel that, you know, it

1:00:02

did a great job for West Ham. Where does

1:00:04

he rank for you in terms of, I'm not

1:00:06

asking you for your full list, but where did

1:00:08

he come to mind? What does it conjure? Obviously

1:00:10

won that amazing trophy, that amazing night in Prague.

1:00:12

Absolutely. I mean, if you

1:00:15

build it on, if

1:00:17

you do it on that, then he's

1:00:20

up there in modern West

1:00:22

Ham managers without a doubt. Johnny, David Moyson,

1:00:25

when you know well, obviously he's written columns

1:00:27

for us before. And what do

1:00:29

you think of his time at West Ham and where does this

1:00:31

leave him now going forward? I

1:00:35

mean, the next guy is not going to be as

1:00:37

successful. And I doubt West Ham are going to have

1:00:40

a manager as successful as David Moyes. You know, he's

1:00:42

on course for a third top

1:00:45

TED finish in four years, saved them

1:00:47

from relegation twice. We

1:00:50

talked about Frankfurt. They were a

1:00:53

Europa League semi-final with

1:00:55

them. European trophy. Good

1:00:57

run this year. I mean, he's not

1:00:59

going because he's not successful. And that's the

1:01:02

point here. He's going, I

1:01:04

suppose, because the fans in the,

1:01:06

which Martin Al understand better than me, and

1:01:09

the directors want to change the direction, whatever that

1:01:11

is. I take it that means style of play.

1:01:13

I take it that means a different

1:01:16

sort of set of players in the pitch in

1:01:18

terms of recruitment. So I just think

1:01:21

it's sad for David because he couldn't have done any

1:01:23

more. And I think it's sad

1:01:25

that the comms around this aren't a bit clearer,

1:01:27

because I think they need to be honest and

1:01:29

just spell out that this is why we're doing

1:01:31

it. It's nothing to do with this guy's body

1:01:34

of work. We just want something new. And that's that

1:01:36

there's a validity to that because football

1:01:39

is an entertainment and we all want to change

1:01:41

the menu at some some points in time.

1:01:43

I mean, a lot of it's upset

1:01:46

me, I suppose. But I've

1:01:49

read quite a few pieces this week where

1:01:52

when a manager gets sacked, there's always a bit of

1:01:54

a rewriting of history by journalists.

1:01:57

And it's part of

1:01:59

how I know. industry works

1:02:01

because it's fed by

1:02:03

certain people, might be talking with agents, might be

1:02:06

talking with clubs who are now seeking to justify

1:02:08

a decision like that. And that's

1:02:10

happened with West Ham and you're

1:02:13

reading things like that recruitment was

1:02:16

terrible. When you look at the... No,

1:02:18

it wasn't terrible. You look at look at Paquetta putting the

1:02:20

ball through the jar of butter and think, who signed those players?

1:02:22

Do you know what I mean? No,

1:02:24

it wasn't terrible. It wasn't terrible. You know, this...

1:02:28

Oh, well, he couldn't work with us. I mean, you

1:02:31

couldn't... David's a strong character,

1:02:34

but to work in that environment

1:02:36

is not easy. And the fact he

1:02:38

was able to do that for four

1:02:40

years is pretty good. I

1:02:43

had an argument with a West Ham fan this week. He was

1:02:45

trying to tell me that, you

1:02:47

know, oh, he didn't sign Jaraboo and, you know,

1:02:49

that was a shame. I mean, when you get

1:02:51

into that level where history is getting rewritten to

1:02:54

the point where literally the only

1:02:56

manager that would have signed Jaraboo and

1:02:59

put him on the pitch... It's from the championship as

1:03:01

well. Yes. Someone's now saying, oh, no, he didn't sign

1:03:03

him. No, no, that was his chairman. That was

1:03:05

the scouts. I mean, let's just not rewrite history.

1:03:08

He's had an amazing time at West Ham. He'll

1:03:11

go on and do something good somewhere else. I don't

1:03:14

think towards the end he

1:03:16

was appreciated properly, but that's... Also,

1:03:20

I know there's a lot of West Ham

1:03:22

fans who do pretty much like Martin. So

1:03:24

maybe you get guided by social media and

1:03:26

sometimes that doesn't reflect what people actually think.

1:03:30

No, no. I think you said that they've been good

1:03:32

for each other. They've been good for each other. I

1:03:34

think that's... The biggest mistake that

1:03:36

West Ham made this season is nothing... Well, I

1:03:38

don't know if it's anything to do with Day

1:03:40

of Noise, but I would presume it's not, is

1:03:43

that they let Pablo Foulnayls inside

1:03:45

Ben Rama, though in the January

1:03:47

transfer window didn't replace them. Well,

1:03:51

Calvin Phillips, but that didn't work.

1:03:54

And if you look at the matches between now and the

1:03:56

end of the season, whether this is a fault of David

1:03:58

and he should have, then have gone

1:04:00

to the youth players more or whether,

1:04:03

you know, time will tell

1:04:05

whether the youth team is as good

1:04:08

as West End fans believe

1:04:10

it is because it's done well.

1:04:13

But in the end, there

1:04:16

was no one off the bench. You know,

1:04:18

there was no one off the bench. And that

1:04:20

came back to haunt them in Europe because

1:04:23

they got to 10 minutes

1:04:25

to go against Barre Leverkus in

1:04:28

Germany and held them, nil-nil,

1:04:30

with a game plan that was

1:04:32

quite negative, but you're playing one

1:04:34

of the best teams in Europe.

1:04:38

I mean, Xavier Alonso can bring

1:04:40

on fresh legs and players that he

1:04:42

trusts who won the game. And

1:04:45

David Moyes couldn't. David Moyes was

1:04:47

stuck with players that were clearly

1:04:49

exhausted. And that's because squad

1:04:52

players that might have come on that

1:04:54

might have provided something were

1:04:57

sold in

1:04:59

January. That's not smart. No. And

1:05:02

I think the situation where it

1:05:05

was clear that the very least the

1:05:07

club weren't unified in wanting to keep

1:05:09

him, that's at

1:05:12

best. But, you know, worst situation

1:05:14

where every time there's a bad result, there's

1:05:17

a briefing about how he's now only got

1:05:19

one game to save his job. I mean,

1:05:21

this instability, I think, has affected the

1:05:24

end of West Ham season. And this player

1:05:26

has been playing kind of knowing now

1:05:28

the manager doesn't really, the club's not

1:05:30

sure about keeping him, you know. We

1:05:33

know that history that affects players when they're not

1:05:35

sure if the guy whose tournament runs actually going

1:05:37

to be in charge next week. Yeah. Well, David

1:05:39

Moyes has his final home game for West Ham

1:05:42

this Saturday against Luton Town, so we'll see how

1:05:44

the fans show their appreciation. But for now, Martin

1:05:46

Samuel and Johnny Northcliff and Gregor Orson, thank you

1:05:48

very much for joining me. Thank you too for

1:05:50

listening. As I say, we'll be back on Monday

1:05:53

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