0:00

there were about to be a wave of companies that needed building because

0:02

there were these big technological shifts happening on Bitcoin.

0:05

That would allow a huge wave of innovation, so then we were like, wow,

0:08

this is a huge opportunity and a huge need that founders would need, not just

0:12

capital, but also really professional support, we invest not just capital,

0:15

we're really supporting the founders in a really deep way when we do

0:19

invest as well. okay, , why am I here?

0:21

Like, what am I supposed to be doing in the world? to understand that I need to understand, like, Why are humans here?

0:26

Like, if I'm part of humanity, like, why are humans?

0:29

why is life? Why does life exist?

0:31

Like, and then you're like, okay, well, why does the world exist?

0:34

Then you're like, why does the universe exist? . I think why did the universe exist is a very complicated question that I have

0:39

no insight into, but Why life exists to me is sort of like this way that

0:44

consciousness gets to experience itself. So then we think about Satoshi, creating Bitcoin and then anonymously and

0:50

leaving as sort of his ultimate act of ego death, there was no ego involved.

0:53

He wanted nothing from it. Like he's never.

0:55

You know, extracted a, Satoshi from his savings.

0:58

And I think that's, you know, there's something that's so special about

1:00

Bitcoin that can't be replicated. Andi, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

1:42

Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me.

1:44

Yeah. Hi, AAndi good to see you. you're in, uh, back in Australia now, I guess, right?

1:49

No, I live in Austin, in In Austin.

1:52

Okay. Okay. so we'll, We'll, uh, uh, since I got that wrong, we should do the TLDR on Andi Pitt.

1:58

Will you tell our listeners and us who you are and, uh, what you do,

2:03

uh, please? Well, the reason I was, so I am from Australia.

2:05

I grew up in Australia. Um, and we met at the Bitcoin conference in Sydney last year.

2:11

So that's, you know, makes sense why you, you, you were

2:13

thinking I live in Australia. Um, I was there for a while.

2:16

So it was really great timing to be able to join that conference.

2:19

I have a background in traditional finance. It was with Goldman Sachs, for around eight years.

2:24

And, um, Um, starting in Australia in, um, in mergers and acquisitions,

2:27

leveraged finance, and then moved to New York, where I sat on, um, the

2:31

trading floor in a principal investing role, um, doing a lot of, structuring

2:36

really interesting transactions, uh, really all around the world across a

2:39

variety of different, industries, Left.

2:42

I was always passionate about emerging markets, um, really saw

2:45

that there was something very broken with how the global system works.

2:49

and so that was really, you know, always what I wanted to do.

2:51

And I just sort of ended up staying at Goldman a lot longer, maybe than I expected.

2:55

and so I left, I ended up traveling, taking quite a long sabbatical,

3:00

kind of working on a startup in the middle, failing at my startup.

3:03

Now it's sort of. Well, merging it into another company, which now I'm

3:06

advising on, which is awesome. and then, um, yeah, started, co founded the fund Ego Death Capital, along

3:13

with Jeff Booth and Nikolai Lechuga as the founding general partners

3:18

a little over two years ago now. Um, really with this excitement around what was going on in Bitcoin

3:23

and Bitcoin being a solution to, you know, so many huge problems that I

3:26

had always been passionate about. And bring sort of the different expertise, uh, that we could then really support

3:32

those companies that we, that would be building out the infrastructure to

3:35

create, you know, the system that we really wanted, to see in the world.

3:39

Um, so we were very lucky to be joined by, um, our advisors, Lynn Alden, Preston Pish

3:45

and Pablo Fernandez on the first fund. They really trusted us.

3:48

Um, we're very grateful and have absolutely loved working with them.

3:52

Um, we're currently raising our second fund. and, uh, Lynn and Preston are both joining us as general

3:58

partners in that second fund. And then we also have, um, Lisa Naygood, aka Nifty Nay.

4:03

She is joining as an advisor, technical advisor to the second fund.

4:06

She's awesome. All of our team is awesome.

4:08

so yeah, really love, love, love getting to work on what we get to

4:11

work with, get to support amazing companies and just support these

4:15

founders that are really like the ones bringing that vision to life.

4:18

Yeah. So, so what kind of companies are EcoDeath looking to, to invest in?

4:24

We invest in companies that are building Bitcoin only, so investing in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

4:29

and companies, it's the software application layer.

4:32

So we're not investing in, in any mining, um, companies.

4:36

We would consider mining services, you know, technology for mining.

4:40

but we really specialize the fund in, in these software applications.

4:43

Um, and it's really then any company that's.

4:46

Contributing in some way to the Bitcoin ecosystem with technology, helping

4:50

people, providing, you know, ways that people can buy or use Bitcoin.

4:54

So, for instance, um, we have a company called Relay out of Europe,

4:58

and they're helping people in Europe to buy Bitcoin, uh, or it's like companies

5:02

that maybe are using Bitcoin in a really innovative way, as well, or it's a,

5:06

it's a way that's like, so it's sort of contributing to Bitcoin or using Bitcoin

5:10

in some way. And what, uh, where did you get the idea from?

5:15

Like where, how, how did, what, what are the origins of ego death?

5:20

How, how did the, the, the things form start forming in your brain?

5:25

Like where did it come from? so Nico and

5:27

I, um, had been friends for quite a while and we, um, I was on sabbatical.

5:33

I was thinking about what to do next and basically Nico and I

5:37

started talking about, you know, Working on something together.

5:41

and then he was, he's known Jeff for many years, Jeff Booth.

5:44

So he's, he was quite good friends with Jeff and he and Jeff had

5:47

been talking about what's going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

5:50

you know, Jeff had been, you know, much deeper in the Bitcoin ecosystem than us.

5:54

And both of us, Nico and I, had this deep passion for, uh, emerging markets.

5:58

We had known Bitcoin for many years. and so then sort of the three of us started talking about what was

6:04

going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem. how these companies, you know, Jeff had this insight of what, of this building

6:11

that was really about to happen. that, that there were about to be a wave of companies that needed

6:17

building because there were these big technological shifts happening on Bitcoin.

6:20

That would allow a huge wave of innovation, um, and building to happen.

6:25

And so then what we did, um, from there, uh, so then we were like,

6:29

wow, this is a huge opportunity and a huge need that founders would need,

6:33

not just capital, but also really professional support, for those.

6:37

And so we constructed a team, basically, that would be able to

6:40

raise the funding we needed and then really support those founders as well.

6:44

So we invest not just capital, we're really supporting the founders

6:48

in a really deep way when we do invest as well.

6:51

what, what is the main difference of working with this as compared

6:54

to working for Goldman and Sachs?

6:57

Bye. I mean, the biggest difference from my day to day is, and high level is

7:01

really, I'm working with early stage founders who have this like, Um, so

7:10

we're investing in really people.

7:12

It's investing in a small group of co founders, typically.

7:16

And it's so, okay, yes, it's a company, but really, it's working closely with

7:20

these, you know, really ambitious, excited, you Um, creative founders and

7:25

really supporting them from that very early stage to growing, um, versus what

7:29

I was doing at Goldman was really working with very big established companies.

7:34

so, you know, anything from like SoftBank to, um, really big companies

7:40

in, in, in, in emerging markets.

7:43

Um, and there it's, it's just a really different thing. You're helping them improve their financing, but you're not.

7:48

It wasn't really like helping to build something.

7:50

I wasn't really like helping. I didn't really feel like I was necessarily contributing that much.

7:56

It was like, okay, yes, I was helping these companies to improve in how they

7:59

were operating, but I wasn't really like, I think it's much more exciting

8:04

to be supporting young founders. And you can really see this, you're supporting them to grow from

8:09

some, like basically from nothing to something really incredible.

8:12

And then it's much more meaningful for me.

8:14

Like. I just couldn't work anymore doing something that I didn't

8:18

feel was like, really contributing in a positive way to the world.

8:21

That was just like, it was just kind of soul destroying to be quite honest.

8:25

so now it's like, You know, I really feel like what we're doing is, is

8:29

supporting, um, something that's so important for the world to exist,

8:34

like, and it's like, how do we each contribute in our own way to that?

8:39

And so I feel like this is how I can contribute

8:42

to kind of Bitcoin effectively.

8:45

Yeah. And, uh, like, uh, Jeff talks about, uh, like seeing things from the lens of the,

8:52

the world that is to come, or like, you can choose how much you already

8:56

live in on a Bitcoin standard or in a hyperbitcoinized world, right?

9:00

It's sort of personal. So from EcoDev's perspective, how much, like, do you denominate in

9:06

sats, for instance, when you look at, uh, a contract or anything

9:11

really, like how, how do you view the world from a company perspective?

9:15

I think there's like a difference between looking forward and being practical

9:18

around the reality of today. And if we were to say, oh, we, we live in a Bitcoinized world,

9:23

that's sort of delusional. Um, you know, I think what Jeff is talking about much more is like

9:27

looking forward, um, and doing what we can to get to that point.

9:32

But the reality is that, you know, most of the founders we invest in,

9:36

their expenses of their company are mostly denominated in fiat.

9:41

So a founder that's living in Lisbon, Portugal.

9:45

He's paying his rent in fiat, you know, is paying his children's

9:48

school fees in, in, in euros.

9:51

you know, and so the reality is that most founders, at least sort of their

9:56

life expenses, and so their salaries for the engineers and everyone has

10:01

to be at least a majority in fiat. But then what was, what then makes sense is, you know, we all typically

10:06

like might save a portion of our salaries and retain a portion.

10:10

So there's like a transition over time where now people

10:13

don't want to save in fiat. So their day to day expenses, part of their income maybe has to be

10:18

in fiat, but then part of it now can go into Bitcoin because that's

10:22

actually what people want to save in. Um, so I think that's like the start of the transition.

10:26

And then over time, as you see hyperbitcoinization, then maybe

10:29

those, you know, the base case of expenses gets denominated

10:32

in fiat, sorry, in, in Bitcoin.

10:35

But for now, what we're doing is effectively investing, um, fiat

10:38

currency into, into, into companies.

10:41

And there are a few reasons for that. One is just from a practical perspective, these early stage

10:45

companies, their expenses are in fiat.

10:47

But over time, as they're generating Bitcoin revenues, whether it's

10:51

Bitcoin linked or just directly in Bitcoin, they put more and more

10:55

of their treasury into Bitcoin. So, if you are a founder and you have your expenses of denominated in

11:01

fiat and you have a Bitcoin treasury, that opens you up to so much risk.

11:05

But over time, as you have revenues, it balances out.

11:07

And so it's sort of this like gradual curve that companies can shift to a

11:11

Bitcoin standard, um, over time as they're generating Bitcoin linked revenue.

11:15

So as we're seeing all of these companies start to do that, it's sort

11:17

of like all I guess it's like a flywheel almost that more and more Bitcoin.

11:22

The companies are earning Bitcoin, and then it creates more

11:24

Bitcoin, um, usage over time.

11:27

So that's sort of how we see it. And, uh, but we invest in companies that we think basically have the

11:32

ability to outperform Bitcoin. So they're really, we're thinking about the sort of hurdle rate as being Bitcoin,

11:39

which is an insanely high hurdle rate.

11:42

Um, but you know, that's how our founders have to think that if they're not able

11:46

to beat the Bitcoin hurdle rate with the growth in their company, then, you know,

11:51

they should really just be holding it, holding treasury or investing in Bitcoin.

11:55

So that that's what we're really looking for in our companies as well.

11:59

Yeah, and that's, that's really, really hard.

12:02

I mean. what would that be? Well, it would be something in Bitcoin and something earning Bitcoin, probably.

12:08

Uh, but yeah, that hurdle is, it's gonna change everything and,

12:12

uh, some people are fearful that that will slow down the economy.

12:16

I don't think so, personally. I think it's just, it's just more honest and we'll see if you, there are no

12:22

zombie companies on a Bitcoin standard.

12:25

Uh, it's just, it's just, More truthful, uh, but that also means that to outperform

12:31

Bitcoin, you have to provide something of real value.

12:35

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I mean, what we've

12:37

seen is, you know, a lot of venture capital, uh, has gotten a

12:41

little over its skis, I would say.

12:43

Um, there's been so much funding put into companies that just don't make sense.

12:47

So much wasted funding.

12:50

Um, and then it's a whole extra story in the crypto VC world, which is not even VC.

12:55

I wouldn't even call it venture capital, but that's a whole different story.

12:59

Um, so I think founders in the Bitcoin ecosystem, and we encourage this as being

13:03

very, very diligent, very thoughtful.

13:06

We're not investing in companies that maybe have the potential to

13:10

have revenue in five years time. It's like, no, what's like the business model?

13:13

How are you going to get there? and that's really what we want to see from a pretty early stage.

13:18

and so, you know, founders are diligent. We're having this world where some of our companies are cash flow positive,

13:23

like, profitable at the seed stage.

13:25

And with the sort of super high growth metrics that you would expect,

13:30

as well from a seed stage company. And that's, that's, I think, quite unique.

13:33

Not all of our companies. We have a sort of a, from a portfolio construction perspective, some

13:37

that really have revenue today and some that are more like moonshots.

13:41

But, you know, from a venture perspective, we are looking for the

13:43

companies that contribute, can have the potential to contribute in a really

13:47

material way to the Bitcoin ecosystem. And for our investors, that means, you know, if they have the

13:52

potential to return like 100x. and so Bitcoin, you know, I think it's unlikely that Bitcoin

13:58

does 100x in the next 10 years. You never know.

14:01

But, um, as compared to Fiat, like, let's see what happens in the Fiat world.

14:06

As compared to some currencies, it certainly will do 100x.

14:09

Um, but compared to the US dollar.

14:11

Um, but that's what we're looking for in companies.

14:14

I've talked to Jeff about this a lot, like, uh, what, what this implies and what

14:19

it could possibly mean for the future. So, The first, the first instinctive thing is to think that like, okay, so

14:26

running a profitable Bitcoin company, like denominated in Bitcoin is really,

14:32

really hard, but then you get into the other thing, uh, which is so fascinating

14:36

that free market competition there, there's a, there's like a new level.

14:41

Of competition, competition that doesn't even have to be competition

14:46

on Bitcoin, because Bitcoiners are incentivized to help one another.

14:51

And so are Bitcoin companies. we all benefit from each other.

14:55

Bitcoin, proper Bitcoin company.

14:57

Uh, so, so one thing happening in Bitcoin over here helps everyone else in Bitcoin.

15:03

Every, every other part of the world. So, so we're, uh, and the companies in particular are, are incentivized

15:09

to, to like help one another. And I can feel like, uh, we've seen this through the years, uh,

15:15

being in the space that more and more people are leaning into that.

15:18

And, and instead of seeing it one another as competitors, just.

15:23

Starting to help one another, but li like, uh, the Madeira Conference for

15:28

instance, and B2C, Prague and, and, and Honey Badger and Riga, all of those three

15:33

conferences seem like they, they don't see each other as competition at all.

15:37

They see each other as complimentary to one another.

15:40

And like, I, I look forward that kind of future so much because I think that's,

15:45

that's one of the most beautiful aspects

15:48

of this. What, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I totally agree.

15:50

And I think it's, it's like, there are huge problems with having an underlying

15:54

monetary system that is corrupted, that's inflationary, that's unfair.

16:00

and we don't really see that in a very tangible, obvious way in our society on

16:04

like normal day to day, year to year. But what we do see is, okay, well, let's look what happens

16:10

when you have hyperinflation. and people are all of a sudden really struggling, having to compete.

16:16

This creates enormous scarcity.

16:18

It just destroys society so quickly.

16:21

And so if you think about, like, that being a super magnified version of what

16:27

we have in our underlying system, and so we have that going on in a smaller

16:31

way every year, but over 10, 20, 50 years, that just creates this culture of

16:36

competition, effectively, because everyone has this scarcity, because everyone's

16:39

just like, um, You know, the hamstermill trying to, like, keep up with, with,

16:45

with the world, um, with inflation, with, with asset price inflation.

16:50

and so I think that, you know, I mean, that's definitely the thesis

16:53

that if you don't have a corruption and underlying monetary system, that

16:58

it could completely change the way people interact with each other.

17:00

If, if people no longer have a scarcity mindset, if they have a currency, they

17:04

can actually store their wealth in and they're not constantly having to

17:07

preserve that and figure out how to preserve it and invest and make more.

17:11

and so I feel like that, that definitely comes across into Bitcoin now from a

17:15

practical perspective, if you are building a company in the Bitcoin space, there

17:18

might be competition in your space, and that is going to be competitive.

17:22

But I think what's really different here is the share.

17:26

It's, it's not like there's a fixed pie.

17:28

And everyone's trying to like get a piece of it and it's a zero sum game.

17:32

Like it's not a zero sum game in Bitcoin. the pie is growing and if everyone is contributing, so if you have like, you

17:40

know, 5 different, let's talk about like, you know, relay and sorry, Swan and

17:44

River are 2 big US companies, which help people buy Bitcoin in the US, like, if

17:49

each of them are bringing Bitcoin to new people, then that whole pie is growing.

17:54

And so they're helping each other and they're not. And there is a degree of competition, but there's a degree to which each

17:59

of them is sort of like growing their worlds and their buyers.

18:03

And so actually, I think that's being part of like a rising tide of something means

18:08

that there is inherently less requirement to be competitive and people can then

18:13

really contribute and help each other. And so, yeah, I agree with you.

18:16

I think we're definitely seeing that in the Bitcoin space.

18:19

Yeah. This whole notion of, uh, the economy being a zero sum game is, is like one

18:24

of the bigger lies ever told. Like, it's, uh, uh, I, I think that's, that's why people have a, uh, the,

18:32

the sea, like the evil Uncle Scrooge type capitalist as the bad guy.

18:37

It's because of this flaw. conception of the, the, that being rich always has to be at the expense of

18:45

someone else, which is simply not true.

18:48

It's, it's only true if you acquired your wealth through, uh, illicit

18:52

means, uh, including inflation.

18:55

So. Uh, when you live in a system that is inherently, uh, untruthful

19:01

and wrong, ethically wrong and immoral, then that's what happens.

19:06

Then people will see the capitalist as the bad guy, and they're

19:10

partly, partially right, since, uh, since that's what's going on.

19:15

Like, the winners are the ones who know how to play this, very skewed

19:21

kind of game. I mean, I think it's, it's true.

19:24

I think one thing I, I do, I have observed is like, everyone's trying to do what

19:30

they think is right at the end of the day. Like, I think there are very few people in the world.

19:34

I mean, for sure. Some that are really out there to be terrible people, like, most people by

19:43

far the majority genuinely think that what they're doing is the right thing

19:49

or that maybe they don't think about it. And Yeah, they're trying to build, build, build wealth for their family.

19:54

They're trying to support their family. And the best way that they know how to do that is by working in a big corporation

19:59

or by running a big corporation. And maybe that corporation happens to be close to the money printer or there's

20:04

lobbyists, like, and then you get in this system where people, you know, work

20:09

for a company and, like, the way that they're rewarded, the whole, the whole

20:13

system is incentivized that these people The best way that they can be successful,

20:17

which is what society expects, is for them to work really hard in that company

20:21

and do the best thing to maximize the shareholder returns of that company.

20:25

But the whole system is, like, pushing them into that because, you know,

20:29

you have pension funds, well, it's like, really, you have, like, big

20:33

investors, let's call it BlackRock, that, like, are expecting these

20:37

companies to have shareholder returns. And so then the people inside, the board of directors, the CEO, okay,

20:42

they, all they need to do is constantly grow profits and that's like their

20:47

one thing that they have to do. And so, okay, we can demonize them, like the CEO of a major company.

20:53

For taking a big salary and, you know, pushing growth at all costs.

20:57

Okay. But why is he doing that? Let's okay. Well, let's demonize BlackRock because they own all of the equity and they're

21:03

the ones that are like putting the shells. Okay. Well, okay.

21:06

But who's pressure on BlackRock like BlackRock.

21:09

Okay. They're high net worth or they actually have pension funds that like moms and

21:11

dads invest in that they need the returns because the whole system is inflationary.

21:16

And so I think there is, it's easy to demonize people, but I just see everyone

21:20

as a sort of like a product of that system

21:23

in one way or another. I Yeah, uh, and this is, this is something I debate with other Bitcoiners a lot

21:29

because, like, I, I totally agree.

21:31

I don't think, I think it's a, it's an effect of how the system

21:35

is constructed from the beginning, and I don't even think, I don't

21:38

even buy that the founders of the Federal Reserve were thinking things.

21:43

Uh, that they were doing something evil either, or like, they, they probably

21:47

thought they were doing the right thing. Uh, it's just, that was impossible to see the, that far into the future.

21:54

What the, the, what the end result or what the long term effects of, of this

22:00

kind of system would be, just as I think like, uh, a democracy is sort of like

22:04

that, uh, it, uh, It looks very good on paper, but it, uh, is it inevitable?

22:10

This is something I struggle with. Is it inevitable that every democracy turns into a totalitarian state after

22:17

X amount of hundreds of years, like, because, or tens of years or whatever?

22:22

I think the pace may differ, but, uh, there's something inherently flawed

22:28

about, um, um, About all of our systems, when we have this kind of

22:33

corrupt money, uh, in the base layer, it's, it's probably all inevitable,

22:39

all the, all the bad shit that comes

22:41

with it, mean, it might be based, but there's other inherent problems, like even, so I guess I

22:47

think you have, you have to like, separate democracy from elections.

22:51

So just because a country has elections doesn't mean it's democracy.

22:54

Like, the US is not a democracy. Like, if you actually look into it, like most countries.

23:00

And it's like, I think the bigger question, well, at least how I think,

23:03

I totally agree with you and how I sort of frame it is like, is it

23:06

actually possible to have a democracy? Because if you did have a perfect democracy, then

23:11

theoretically that could continue. But the problem is, like, I don't know that that's possible.

23:15

And so even if you look at like voting theory, so like, if you look at kind

23:19

of a microeconomics, like, like a mathematical model of voting theory.

23:23

There is no perfect voting system. So there is no perfect voting system that will accurately reflect the

23:29

views of the population every time. So different countries have different structures to try and overcome this.

23:35

In the US, you have state by state, you have the president, which is very flawed.

23:40

In say, um, certain countries like Egypt, you'll have runoff elections.

23:44

So you'll have like 50 candidates and then the top, like, two get selected.

23:50

For a runoff. But even then, mathematically, like, it doesn't guarantee, because people

23:55

split the vote, like, you could have three candidates out of the five in

23:58

the first election that represent the same thing, they split the vote, and

24:01

therefore the other two go through.

24:04

So, just mathematically, there's actually no perfect way to have

24:08

Elections reflect the population. other countries like Germany will do, um, proportional representation of democracy.

24:15

Once you get above a certain threshold, you have representation in the

24:18

parliament, and then you get into all the factors of like, of that.

24:22

But I think, you know, and then in the US, we have parliamentary voting.

24:27

In Australia, we have something similar, but In the US, each individual, senator

24:32

or congressman or congresswoman would vote individually on each piece of legislation.

24:38

In Australia, or the UK, and I, I'm not sure how it is in European

24:43

countries, you vote as a party, like, it's very, very uncommon.

24:48

It's almost unheard of for anyone to vote against the party.

24:51

So if we think about how that works in practice, in the US, each individual,

24:55

uh, And then the other person is deciding whether or not they're going

24:58

to vote for a piece of legislation, which it's like, how do you design

25:02

a system for maximum corruption? Right? Because then they're like looking at their own interests for every single

25:08

one, bargaining on every single piece of legislation that comes through.

25:12

And so then you just get these like crazy pieces of legislation passed,

25:15

like the Inflation Reduction Act that people just add on and add on and add

25:18

on, and it just becomes a total mess. Whereas in Australia, like, There are benefits and cons and pros of, like, pros

25:25

and cons of both systems, but at least in Australia, I think there is corruption,

25:29

but it's less, because you would have to basically corrupt an entire party,

25:32

effectively, or a majority of the party, your interests would have to align with

25:37

a majority of the party for that party to kind of want that to come into force.

25:42

because if the party doesn't agree with what the leader is doing, they actually can just vote him out in between elections.

25:48

So it's very much like a, it's just a little more check and balance on at least

25:52

that one particular aspect of, of, of what

25:55

might corrupt a democracy. I don't know how it is in other European countries, but I think it's

26:00

kind of similar, but, but from my, my experience is from the Swedish

26:03

system, Where it's very much like that, that it's very uncommon that

26:09

people go against the party line. But it's not as if you have to bribe the entire party.

26:14

You could just bribe the leadership of the party, which is usually very centralized

26:19

and very bribe able, as it seems anyway.

26:24

So, so I think, uh, yeah, and there's a lot of like virtue signaling and stuff

26:29

going on from this leadership position.

26:31

So, so, uh, I think we'll get, uh, I view corruption in different countries

26:38

as like they're, they're, it exists everywhere, but it's just the different

26:43

layers of society where you, you might have to, you know, bribe the, the, the

26:49

police officer on the street in Mexico, but, uh, and if you go to Scandinavia,

26:54

you have to bribe someone higher up the hierarchy and it's more expensive to bribe

26:59

them, but the bribes are still there. So, so what system is more, You know, fair and, and, uh, truthful,

27:07

well, up for debate, I guess, but, uh, Yeah, and then you have the

27:11

other inherent flaws of democracy. It's not just only that it doesn't make, like, voting theory and mathematics that

27:17

it doesn't make sense, but also the, the, uh, the morality of, like, it's four

27:22

people, if five people vote, four of them could vote for beating up the fifth guy.

27:27

And that's like, it's still wrong.

27:31

So you come into libertarian theory and property rights and stuff and, uh,

27:39

It's very hard to square democracy with property rights at the end of the day.

27:44

So, so, but I don't, I'm not claiming I have any answers here what to

27:48

do about it, except just increase your freedom footprint and get

27:52

some more money, or I mean Bitcoin.

27:55

Get some more money is probably a good idea too.

27:58

Yeah, but get your hands on some Bitcoin and try to Live your life your own

28:02

way, use the tools you have, like, do the jurisdictional slalom if you can,

28:08

I mean, one thing I do find useful is like

28:10

talking to people about the ideas we talk about in Bitcoin, but not in a

28:14

preachy, It's like when invited or, you know, maybe discussing lightly

28:22

something that someone might find it. I don't know with my family.

28:25

Like, if I just go and talk about Bitcoin, I've lost them.

28:29

But, um, you know, there are certain aspects of it that

28:32

actually really resonate. And so sort of helping because people like inherently, I think

28:38

it's a human nature thing. Like, One way or another, quite close minded.

28:42

they might, it's like a natural thing over time and evolutionary perspective that You

28:47

know, people end up seeing the world in a fixed way that is effectively in line with

28:51

their peer group, and so helping, like, I think, like, just creating, like, little

28:56

cracks in, in maybe the way that they see the world and opening minds a little

29:00

bit, I think that's, like, what I've At least where I'm at, who knows, like, but

29:05

right now, that's kind of where I'm at of like, just like us getting people to

29:10

maybe like question their assumptions a little bit just to like loosen up

29:13

maybe some of those really fixed, fixed views that are held.

29:17

Absolutely, and yeah, that's how you do it.

29:21

Because you, like, going full on, becoming a full on, like, big coiner, you will

29:29

alienate people, and You, you will spend less time with your old friends, uh,

29:36

that's just comes with the thing, uh, because you, you, you have less in common

29:41

if, if you view the world differently and, uh, yeah, I, I've, I've seen it happen

29:46

firsthand and, uh, hopefully poking holes in their narratives and, and, uh, cracks,

29:54

as you say, in their, uh, a little crack here and there and, the mirror through

29:59

which their worlds are reflected through.

30:02

A strange sentence, but, uh, that's probably how you, how you get there.

30:07

I think that's a really great way to phrase it actually. Yeah, maybe, uh, maybe

31:59

I'll jump in now on a, on a to slightly take the topic a

32:04

little bit different direction. Uh, you mentioned that, that you, got into Bitcoin and sort of more in your

32:13

life because it aligned with some things that, that, uh, that you found important.

32:18

Uh, so, but can you explain how you found Bitcoin and how you

32:21

came to the realization that it did those things?

32:24

Yeah, so I first came across Bitcoin probably in 2017.

32:28

I was sitting on the trading floor at Goldman in New York and

32:31

everyone was talking about Bitcoin. It was the 2017 bull run.

32:34

and I was like, what is this thing? I remember there was like, I think there was a guy on the floor that

32:38

like made so much and he just like quit and bought a house in the

32:41

Hamptons and just like retired. And everyone was like, Wow.

32:45

Okay. That's kind of cool. Like, but also like jealous.

32:48

Like, I wish I'd done that. not I wish, but you know, that's what people were saying.

32:53

So that's when I, that was like a very strong memory I have.

32:55

Um, and then I left Goldman in 2018.

32:58

I ended up actually spending a lot of time in Europe, um, and specifically Berlin

33:02

with a lot more of the crypto community.

33:04

So a lot of the, you know, people that were much more involved in Ethereum,

33:07

in altcoins, And there I was talking about so many interesting use cases,

33:13

but I was just like, highly skeptical.

33:16

And I was like, I don't really think these use cases make sense.

33:20

Like, for instance, because I've been a student of emerging markets,

33:24

democracy, governance, like, corruption, And so people were saying, okay, well

33:28

you can, we can use the blockchain for transparency in government.

33:32

And I'm like, I don't think the problem is a lack of ability to be transparent.

33:35

It's the lack of want to be transparent.

33:38

Like governments can publish what they spend.

33:41

You don't need technology for that. Do governments want to do that?

33:45

No. and so there was just like, I was just, I saw so much noise and I

33:50

didn't really get to the Bitcoin narrative at that point in time.

33:53

Um, I didn't really understand that people I was with were not Bitcoiners,

33:58

they were like crypto people. And then I'd like left Goldman.

34:01

I was totally burnt out. I was like, I do not have, I don't want to think about finance ever again.

34:06

I'm just going to go and travel and like live in the forest.

34:09

And right. Um, anyway, long story short, um, I ended up, uh, it was really, I guess, in sort

34:17

of The last few years, really talking a lot to Jeff, and, and Nico and that

34:22

whole conversation we started to have around the fund and then really realizing,

34:27

I think that's what really got me was realizing that Bitcoin was this, you

34:31

know, potential solution to all of this. These things that I had been so passionate about for such a long time.

34:36

and then I think it was really during the pandemic also,

34:40

that opened my eyes a lot too.

34:43

I'd always looked at governance and corruption and blah, blah, blah, like

34:46

as an emerging market phenomenon. that's what I'd been studying.

34:49

I'm not sure if you're, you're familiar with the work of Paul Collier.

34:51

There's a great book, Wars, Guns and Votes, which is very influential in

34:54

my sort of journey around, um, it's called Democracy in Dangerous Places.

34:59

It's really looking at, Basically, what does quote unquote

35:02

democracy look like in Africa? and it's not democracy, long story short.

35:06

and then it was really in 2020 that there was this outrageous

35:10

things happening in the world. And I was like, wait, I think all of that narrative is also.

35:16

I think all of that applies to the countries I live in as well, like the US

35:20

and Australia, which was like, wait, why? It was such a, like, a light bulb moment for me.

35:24

And so I think those two factors of seeing then Bitcoin really solving a problem for

35:29

emerging markets, but also over a longer term, you know, these deep structural

35:34

issues we have in, In the West as well.

35:37

And I think the third factor is the environmental point.

35:41

So I'm, you know, deeply passionate about the environment.

35:46

Like, it horrifies me that we cut down all growth forests.

35:49

I love hiking, camping, you know, being in nature so much and just seeing this

35:54

destruction globally of what's going on.

35:56

And it's driven by this ever consuming, ever, ever increasing consumption.

36:01

And it's horrifying to me just seeing the amount of consumption

36:04

and waste that we have in the world. And it's just like, it's so out of harmony with how the world should

36:10

operate, and with how, like, a society and a people in harmony with nature

36:15

are ultimately a happy and, you know, thriving, functioning society.

36:20

And we're not. And why is that?

36:22

And so for me, then, you know, I guess that was a really another, another

36:25

thing that I really resonated with around the big, you know, what people

36:30

talk about in Bitcoin of, of this inflationary monetary system driving

36:35

ever, ever increasing consumption. That is just.

36:39

Not sustainable. And that's ultimately what's destroying our planet.

36:42

and, you know, things being way cheaper than they should be because we're

36:45

on borrowed money and borrowed time.

36:48

and so, yeah, that that's I, I think it's interesting because so

36:51

many environmentalists are against Bitcoin and, you know, some interest

36:54

groups have done a great job. of, creating a narrative that Bitcoin is bad for the environment.

37:00

And I think that's actually really sad. And I would, I really want to see that change because to me, it's like

37:05

actually this root, root cause of the problem in our monetary system today.

37:10

That was a long answer. No, that's, uh,

37:13

I mean, I love all the other, um, the, all the other, uh, um, arguments

37:19

for why Bitcoin is good for the environment that you can like use it as

37:23

a suspension mechanism for, for energy that would otherwise have been wasted.

37:29

And you can put, uh, power plants in remote locations, as long as you have

37:33

a mining rig, all of this great stuff.

37:37

But the, the, the real core thing that I seldomly hear argued for is like, yeah,

37:42

but the big, the, the really big thing here is that it's anti consumerist.

37:47

Like you will sell all your chairs and, and only, like, at some point you

37:52

come to this, that which you can do without your own insights where, where,

37:56

where you're not a materialist anymore. You don't crave a ton of shit.

38:00

You'll, you'll be, nothing and be happy.

38:04

That's the That's where the vectors are pointing!

38:10

Yeah. I think we all just want to like, get back to a life

38:13

where we live like in a little cottage in nature and We have family and

38:17

community around us and that's like, and we have a purpose and we work and

38:20

that's ultimately what makes us happy. But it's kind of crazy that that's a privilege now reserved for like, The

38:28

few rich people that can afford it. Yeah.

38:31

It's, uh, yeah, clown world. Everything's upside down.

38:34

So, your, uh, bio here on Ego Death Capital says Poet

38:39

and Consciousness Explorer. I guess this is, uh, adjacent topics to this living in harmony

38:46

with nature and, uh, everything.

38:48

Uh, can you give us a little more about that, please?

38:53

Sure. People don't normally pick up on this. I love it.

38:55

Um, do I start?

38:58

I think, yeah, I, I guess I, I went on what could be called a spiritual journey

39:04

over the time after I left Goldman.

39:07

I think that's a little cliched term, so I don't love to use it,

39:11

but it is relatively accurate. I also actually, I, I grew up sort of in my younger years in a, in a

39:19

somewhat, in a, in a, I guess, a spiritual community in Sydney as well.

39:22

So there was this kind of somehow imprinted on me in some way

39:26

or another, um, we left that. So I wasn't involved in that for most of my life, but it is sort of the way I was

39:32

raised for the early years of my life.

39:35

I think just. most of us on a day to day basis, we're working, we have a family, and we don't

39:42

necessarily have the time to like deeply contemplate the nature of existence, but

39:47

I was really lucky and privileged to be able to explore that and to take time

39:52

off work at a relatively young age and be able to just, spend time You know,

39:58

deeply contemplating that question and learning from, you know, some of the, the,

40:03

the, the deepest spiritual traditions, um, in the world, um, particularly,

40:08

I spent time up in Northern, Northern India, um, in Dharamshala or in the

40:12

Himalayas, um, Studying Buddhism, um, not, not a huge amount of time,

40:16

but it was very, very transformative. The time I had there, that was some of the happiest I've been talking

40:21

about, like having no possessions. Like, they took our phones away from us.

40:24

Everything had a tiny little cell.

40:26

Like, it was literally like a tiny bedroom with like, one little bed and that was it.

40:32

And it was like, amazing. It's just like, so great.

40:36

I think I, so I've been, I think, and then when you start learning from all

40:40

the different deep spiritual traditions, there's this process There's this big

40:43

difference between the core mystical truths of a religion that I view as

40:48

effectively the same, um, and maybe what gets expressed and brought out into what

40:53

you would call a religion with rituals and rules and, and is sort of then

40:58

separated from, from you as having that, you know, universal source or God or

41:04

whatever you want to call it inside you. And so I think as, as, as I've had the time to sort of

41:11

experience and understand, um.

41:13

You know, a variety of wisdom traditions, indigenous traditions from around

41:17

the world, you know, and spiritual.

41:19

it's sort of a conclusion I've come to, if I can call it that.

41:23

I I mean, my, my spiritual journey, I, I, I would say Bitcoin played a big part of it.

41:30

Uh, I'm, uh, I've done a bit of meditation and, uh, like.

41:35

Spent quite some time trying to, like, learn more about myself, and, uh, I'm

41:40

not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but what I can

41:45

say is whenever you're in a creative process and you're creating something,

41:51

whether it's a text or a song, and you really feel like In the moment creating

41:57

something, uh, especially in a live environment, when you're jamming music

42:01

with people or something, it does feel like the song or whatever is not in

42:07

your head, but in the room around you and that you're channeling something

42:11

and the writing can feel like that too.

42:14

I don't believe that's the case. I believe that that is just tapping into your unconscious or your subconscious

42:21

mind, but it certainly feels like, uh, like it's an outside force.

42:27

So that's what I can say about that, I guess. What are your thoughts?

42:31

mean, from most, most, most deep spiritual traditions would say that

42:35

effectively every human being is an incarnation of the universal source.

42:40

So, um, in Hinduism, they would, I have to remember, Brahma is basically.

42:47

The universal source, universal consciousness, and then the

42:50

Atman is effectively the, the individual incarnation of that.

42:54

And so we are all effectively connected, um, to, we are, we're all just part of

43:01

this, like, universal experience of the world and, that each of us are effectively

43:08

The universe become conscious that if you

43:11

are in this deep thinking of like, okay, why am I here?

43:15

Like, what am I supposed to be doing in the world?

43:18

And then it's like, well, to understand that I need to understand,

43:20

like, Why are humans here?

43:23

Like, if I'm part of humanity, like, why are humans?

43:26

Okay, then if I need to understand that, well, okay, why is life?

43:31

Why does life exist? Like, and then you're like, okay, well, why does the world exist?

43:35

Then you're like, why does the universe exist? So it's like, you keep coming back.

43:39

I think why did the universe exist is a very complicated question that I have

43:43

no insight into, but Why life exists to me is sort of like this way that

43:48

consciousness gets to experience itself. It's almost like if someone create, you know, if a tree falls in the

43:54

forest, does it make a sound? Well, it doesn't if there's no one here that hear it.

43:58

And so if you know, the universe, actually, it's like this, this way

44:02

of the universe experiencing itself.

44:05

and so each of us is sort of on this journey in life through, of

44:09

consciousness through being able to sort of simultaneously be aware of the

44:16

universal consciousness at the same time being the universal consciousness.

44:20

And that's a very, very difficult journey to, to tread because of, you know, a

44:24

whole variety of, you know, A kind of evolutionary biology perspective is

44:27

like the process of becoming conscious.

44:29

So an animal, right? They're generally pretty happy.

44:32

They just live in the world. I have squirrels here. They just love, they play, but are they deeply aware of themself?

44:38

Like, no. And so that process of like, that jump in consciousness to becoming conscious

44:42

is inherently, painful and complicated.

44:46

And that's what creates a lot of like, Human, the human suffering as the, as the

44:51

Buddhists would say, suffering is inherent in life in the nature of our existence.

44:58

but I think that's the journey more and is to be able to just

45:00

experience it deeply and experience.

45:05

Everything that comes and not get attached and not, not, not rejecting

45:09

things and just being in the flow. And then I think when you can do that, you have these moments, like

45:14

what you said of creativity, where you're just purely in that flow.

45:17

You're purely in that pure expression of consciousness.

45:21

There's nothing, there's no thoughts, there's no preconceptions,

45:24

there's no fear, there's no judgment getting in the way. You're able to just like simply be and simply express.

45:29

And I think a lot of musicians, creators, entrepreneurs, like have that experience.

45:34

And for me, my journey is like, how do I actually be in that all day, every day?

45:39

And you don't, you get knocked out, like, but it's like, how

45:42

can I live the life that is like naturally springing up within me?

45:46

And there's a great quote from, from, from Hermann Hesse, who's a German author.

45:50

He wrote Siddhartha, but this quote is from Demian and I have to remember it,

45:53

but it's all I was, I think it's something like all I was doing was trying to live

45:57

the life that was welling up within me. Why was that so difficult?

46:01

And that resonates to me so much. It's like, why is it so difficult?

46:05

It's like, um, anyway, it's kind of like the

46:09

journey I'm on right now, at least.

46:12

Fascinating. I mean, I've had such great conversations with Jeff about stuff

46:19

like this before, so it's fascinating to hear your perspective on it.

46:22

Absolutely. And yeah, as you say, we are the universe experiencing itself to a certain extent.

46:30

We can't I mean, the molecules in our body, the atoms, some of them are born,

46:38

well, most of them, all of them, are born, when stars explode, like, uh, and

46:43

the really heavier elements need a really big star to explode, and then those

46:48

atoms get scattered around the universe, and, uh, They make up what we are, so

46:53

we are literally the stuff of stars, and I, I, I find this very fascinating, the

46:59

whole, like, to which extent the mind creates reality, and to which extent

47:04

there is an objective reality, and if the whole objective subjective objective.

47:08

Dichotomy is false, if that's also something where our brains created to make

47:16

order out of chaos, because we have no way of knowing, and there are so many other

47:21

theories, like, um, for instance, there's, uh, Three theories I love about this.

47:29

One is the meme theory of everything, which is a way of explaining the

47:33

Fermi Paradox, which I'm sure you know of, uh, why we don't hear

47:37

about the, from other life forms.

47:40

And that is simply because they're too far away, so our minds can't sync with them.

47:44

So what we experience, what we call reality, is simply where

47:48

our consciousnesses collide, uh, all beings on Earth.

47:53

Uh, and what also explain why it's harder to understand a lobster than it

47:59

is to understand another human being. And, uh, even harder to understand an insect.

48:05

And I'm not sure that what you said, that other species don't

48:10

have this consciousness thing. I mean, whales and stuff have been observed to, at least what we engage

48:18

in, at least what we think is deep thinking and, you know, committing

48:23

suicide and stuff, which is. This sort of requires a self reflection, I guess, even though

48:29

that's not a happy thought. Um, the other idea is that consciousness is just one of the, uh, constants in the

48:37

universe, and that we're just tapping into something that is already there, uh,

48:42

and it's like a base layer, like one of the dimensions, um, And the third theory

48:48

is, uh, the, um, just from, uh, this is much more hands on thing about, uh, space

48:56

time, space and time being connected in the way that Einstein predicted.

49:00

So we know that time flows different speeds in different places in

49:05

the universe, which means we, we do experience it subjectively.

49:09

I mean, here locally on earth, the differences are so small, so we don't

49:14

really see it, but it could be that.

49:18

For at least a certain time period, the universe is already deterministic,

49:25

so it's deterministic on a short scale, but non deterministic on a

49:29

longer scale, if that makes any sense, because you could sort of, if you cut

49:35

through the nature of space time, you add space to the three dimensions,

49:40

so it becomes, a cross section, So a cross section of a four dimensional

49:46

thing, what would that look like? And could that be like the true representation of time?

49:52

I'm rambling here, but yeah, I, I love exploring these topics and

49:57

I can't stop thinking about them. It's wonderful.

50:02

Mean, I think a couple, like on the animal thing, I totally agree with you.

50:05

I think there are certain animals that potentially For sure animals have

50:09

feeling, they have emotion, they have personality, like, my, my question about

50:14

animals, even like, like dolphins for instance, are known to like, take drugs,

50:19

like, they will get a puffer fish, and they will pass the puffer fish around,

50:23

like male tamed dolphins, because it could have been an, like, a poison.

50:28

Puts them in an altered state of consciousness. And there's videos, you can, the dolphins are just like floating like this.

50:33

It's hilarious. Um, and you, you know, you see family bonding, you see love,

50:38

you see mourning, you see pain. Extraordinary level of consciousness, particularly in, you know, whales,

50:45

elephants, dolphins, like these larger, more, more advanced species.

50:50

Whether they question the nature of their reality, I'm not sure.

50:52

Like, do they question who am I and what am I doing in this world?

50:57

Like if, if an, if a whale is committed committing suicide,

51:01

is that an instinctual thing? Is that a, like, I think Ka sort of do that as well?

51:06

I think they, I think the other side is, I think it's possible that

51:11

for our leap to consciousness to occur, it came with a disconnection.

51:16

So animals also have superpowers.

51:18

If we, as humans, think about how animals work, like, how do whales navigate?

51:23

How do turtles come back to the same beach every year?

51:26

How do, like, birds migrate across the world and navigate?

51:30

Like, we don't actually know how that works. So, as compared to humans, like, certain animals have these, like,

51:37

incredible, like, they know a tsunami is coming, they, animals will flee.

51:43

There's, so Rupert Sheldrake talks about this a lot, and there's a book

51:46

he wrote about, like, dogs that know their owners are coming home, and they

51:49

did all of these experiments, and dogs would know their owner was coming home,

51:53

even, like, the owner hadn't left the office, like, it was just an intention,

51:57

like, there is no way that the dogs would know that There was no routine, there

52:00

was no hearing, like, but they would go to the window and wait for their owner

52:04

when the owner had, like, was leaving the office and knew, like, but there's

52:08

no way the dogs could have known in the material ways that we view the world.

52:13

And so there's like this connection that certain animals have with, you

52:16

know, A knowledge or an understanding like this deeper frequency, maybe

52:21

you can call it that, of the world that like we are disconnected to.

52:25

And then if you start looking at like to your point on like consciousness and what

52:29

we're generating, like creating our own reality, and you start like looking into

52:34

the quantum physics aspect of things. There's so like, yes, we're made of stars, but equally

52:39

we're made of literally nothing. Like if you keep. Going into an atom, you keep going, there's like nothing there, and all

52:45

there is is a probability function that coalesces when we view it.

52:48

And like, so there is like something and everything going

52:53

on everywhere all at once. And we have the ability to perceive certain aspects of that, uh, but

53:00

certain aspects, you know, like, uh, like, uh, ultraviolet light,

53:04

like, we, we can't perceive. Now we can do experiments to figure out that it exists.

53:09

And we can work with that technology, but like.

53:11

We can't perceive it. And so we're sort of gradually increasing our perception of like

53:15

the quote unquote non material realms, if I can call it that.

53:18

And from my perspective, like, I think that's what's happening.

53:21

You know, they exist and I'm fascinated by this sort of the quote

53:24

unquote science of consciousness that's emerging with a lot of the

53:27

experimentation being done around it. Um, yeah, anyway, and then I think the alien rabbit hole is fascinating.

53:33

So if you keep going down the alien rabbit hole, you get to consciousness.

53:38

And that's like, it's, it's like a paranormal phenomena, which is like

53:42

a potentially, you know, just a, like a product, like creation of a

53:47

mass, like a collective unconscious effectively, or a collective

53:51

consciousness that's like creating this, this, this experience of the world.

53:55

There are so many potential solutions to that old paradox.

54:00

One thing I'm fascinated by are CAPTCHAs.

54:04

Uh, you, you, you get a capture and you, you're supposed to click a

54:08

little, uh, tick box, a tick, a little box that says, I am not a robot.

54:13

And my instinctual thought is always, how the fuck would I know if I was one?

54:19

Like, how can I ever know if I'm a robot?

54:22

This is Phil. This is Philosophy 1 0 1.

54:24

Like I can, I cannot know, like it's.

54:27

Back to the basic notion of I think therefore some thinking is going

54:32

on somewhere, but I can't really prove anything else, so how the

54:35

fuck would I know if I'm a robot? It's part of my French.

54:39

I never thought about that. That's so true. I'm never going to be able to do a capture again without thinking.

54:45

So another point is, is the idea that so a little bit touching on

54:50

the mind creating reality and like the the idea of consciousness.

54:54

Do you, do you, uh, do you Know anything about, like, sort of the idea that the

54:59

brain might make decisions, uh, about 300 milliseconds or something, but before

55:05

it actually hits into consciousness, and then this gets into the implications

55:10

of does free will actually exist?

55:13

Any thoughts on that? This is a fascinating conversation I've

55:17

had with someone recently. Uh, we've been having a very deep conversation about the nature of

55:22

free will and whether it exists. And yeah, I've heard about this research.

55:27

I think it's fascinating. I've been diving a lot into, the work of Carl Jung in the last few months.

55:34

Um, and right now I just started reading this book, which is like, The

55:37

letters between Carl Jung and Wolfgang Pauli, who was a quantum physicist.

55:42

They actually co wrote a book together.

55:44

Anyway, so, and then someone published a collection of their letters.

55:47

I think it's fascinating. But, um, I guess the conversation I've been having around free

55:53

will is like, I have no idea.

55:56

I mean, at the end of the day, but I think it's possible.

56:00

I think we have like certain strategic, like directions in our life.

56:04

And, you know, from a Buddhist perspective, they might call it

56:07

dharma, in Taoism, they might say you're in, in, you're in, in harmony.

56:13

You're basically in line with, with the Dao.

56:17

I think in the West, we call it purpose. And I don't know.

56:20

I think my experience of the world is that each of us. There is some sort of pre programmed life for us in some way.

56:27

and then whether we have the ability to influence that or not, I don't know.

56:30

Like, you know, 1 argument might be that, which I thought about

56:33

is I think sometimes maybe. There are like certain points along the way where you, it

56:39

could be completely random. And so maybe there is this sort of like random spectrum of outcomes and, you know,

56:44

it could be this way or this way and it's a 50 50 probability and it's just random.

56:49

So I mean, that doesn't necessarily help with free will, but then I think

56:52

there is also this aspect of being able to do the work, you know, really

56:57

getting back in touch with, ourselves and getting back in line with the

57:02

Tao, coming back to consciousness.

57:06

And then being able to, from that really centered, central point, actually being

57:10

able to influence things and influence our, our, our role in the world, or at

57:15

least be completely in line with it. And maybe we can't influence our life, but we can influence

57:21

our experience of that life. So we may not be able to control our external circumstances, but we can

57:26

control our emotional response to them.

57:28

And that comes with a whole host of things of like, challenges with trauma

57:32

and subconscious and all of these things. So I don't want to bypass and say, Oh, you can just choose to be happy.

57:36

Like, I'm not saying that it's far more complicated than that, but I think we

57:41

have the ability to maybe work internally to change our emotional response to

57:45

things and, um, a book that comes to mind, which, which people might find

57:50

interesting, um, is a book by Viktor Frankl called Man's Search for Meaning.

57:54

Um, yeah. Which is about his time in Auschwitz, which I know is a very challenging

57:59

topic for many people, including myself.

58:01

And I really found that book very, I read it, I remember March 2020,

58:08

standing in the airport, like, Could not put that book down, um, despite

58:12

the, the nature of the content. Um, and his whole message is, okay, we might not be able to change to

58:18

control our reality externally, but we can control, we can choose

58:22

how we respond to it emotionally. So that's just some of the thoughts I've

58:26

been having around free will lately, but. The western philosophy that comes to mind is stoicism and Marcus Aurelius

58:34

and I think he called it being in line with nature and or being in line with

58:39

your nature or something like that is very akin to these Buddhist thoughts.

58:44

Uh, we had some other thoughts. thinking in that era came out of, because there was deep connections to India.

58:50

And there were also deep connections to Egypt. So it's sort of the Egyptian mystical traditions and the Indian

58:57

mystical traditions came, were coming up to, um, which predate,

59:03

like, the sort of Roman philosophy.

59:06

it's sort of, there's this, like, one thread that, like, seems

59:09

to come through.

59:13

Yeah, that's, that's the pretty part. I mean, uh, Hindu, Hinduism, uh, I think Hinduism gets a pass too often,

59:21

though, for being this, uh, mystical, nice religion with only nice people

59:25

who want no possessions and stuff. But the, the, the caste society, like work your ass off and maybe

59:32

you'll get a better life next time. That's like the most assholey policy ever.

59:37

Like, uh, it's worse than inflation even.

59:40

Uh, you're, we're, we're the elites and you're not, and that's the way it is.

59:46

Hope for a better chance in the next life.

59:48

I, that's, that's Yeah, that's pure evil.

59:53

I don't know if it's evil. I think it's, I don't know.

59:56

That's another good question. The nature of evil.

59:58

A great philosophical question. Um, I think it's, It's like the religious expression of what

1:00:04

was once a core spiritual truth. And the same with like all of the religious institutions and

1:00:09

then the humans that ultimately practice those cultural practices.

1:00:12

So if you read the Bhagavad Gita, it can be very triggering because

1:00:15

it talks about caste mixing. It talks about, okay, if everything goes, If people are not in line, then

1:00:20

there's caste mixing as like, that's the worst thing that can happen.

1:00:23

And so that's like a product of its time.

1:00:26

And, um, you know, what the Buddha did was really in part

1:00:30

a reaction to the caste system. And so Buddhism was in a way, it's like the successor to Hinduism.

1:00:38

And it's much more like ascetic, much more, probably more in line with stoicism.

1:00:43

I have to say I'm not, you know, much more about stoicism and sort

1:00:46

of Roman philosophy than I do. It's an area I'm looking to learn more about, um, but certainly in Buddhism,

1:00:52

you don't have the caste system. You don't. It's very different.

1:00:55

Whereas Hinduism, Okay, people really disagree with me on this, but, like, from

1:00:59

my perspective, Hinduism got too caught up in the ritual and the trappings of

1:01:04

spirituality as opposed to the heart of spirituality, and the Bhagavad Gita talks

1:01:07

about this, that ritual is not, like, if you're relying on ritual, you're out of

1:01:11

touch, like, ritual is sort of, like, not the core of, like, Spiritual connection

1:01:17

and Buddhism sort of tried to come back and Buddhism has gotten lost in many ways.

1:01:21

But, um, yeah, I totally agree with you that the modern expression,

1:01:25

like, the way that Hinduism got expressed in society was like, Not

1:01:31

positive in many ways. No, well,

1:01:33

isn't it what always happens, that a very individual spiritual experience,

1:01:40

maybe there's something about that in the base layers of these religions, but as

1:01:44

soon as they become organized, they're this collectivist bullshit institution

1:01:49

instead, somewhere down the line, and it just gets ugly after a while.

1:01:55

I think that's what happens anyway. back to the, um, the consciousness thing, uh, because this is the, the,

1:02:03

one of the reasons why we bring it up is because we had a conversation

1:02:06

with Jeff about the nature of, of, um, reality and the nature of consciousness.

1:02:12

Uh, and then we had sort of a follow up episode with Volker from Germany

1:02:15

who had, uh, talked a lot about this, how there can be no free will because

1:02:21

of the, uh, just the arrow of time.

1:02:23

So it's not only the lag in, in, uh, the 0.

1:02:27

3 second lag in your conscious experience, but it's also the simple fact that, for an

1:02:34

entity, for you to choose whatever neurons that happen to pop into your brain, you

1:02:40

would have to have like a soul outside of that brain making those decisions

1:02:45

because the, the biological cannot be separated from, like, you, who would

1:02:51

be the choosing entity and that sort of presupposes that there's something outside

1:02:55

of yourself making those decisions. However, this is, uh, uh, a thing that can't, uh, I can't stop thinking about.

1:03:06

Quantum entanglement might solve that.

1:03:08

If quantum, you've heard of quantum entanglement, right?

1:03:11

So like particles can, uh, be entangled over space, over vast distances, but

1:03:18

they can also be entangled over time.

1:03:20

So is there a way for a particle to be entangled to the past?

1:03:25

in order to make a decision for you in the future.

1:03:28

So that your brains, that the neurons in your brain are somewhat

1:03:32

feedbacking back and forth in time in order for you to have free will.

1:03:37

I think quantum entanglement is, and this is why the whole, like, there was such

1:03:40

intellectual leap happening in Germany.

1:03:42

My mom's German actually. Um, but happening in Germany in like the 1920s, I think it was the 20s really

1:03:48

around quantum, quantum, earlier than that, but quantum physics effectively.

1:03:53

And it just changed the entire paradox of how we understand reality.

1:03:56

And yet. None of that has really filtered into our ordinary understanding

1:04:00

of how we view the world. Um, I think, like, if you think about quantum entanglement, like, the entire

1:04:08

universe across the entire space of time could be quantum entangled, because if

1:04:11

it all started at, like, one point, like, effectively, It's all quantum entangles.

1:04:16

And another way that you might call, okay, it's like ways I think about it, like, the

1:04:22

university is connected in ways we don't understand, like, maybe at some point

1:04:26

in the future, we will figure it out the same way we figured out radio waves and

1:04:30

spectrum and frequency and all of that.

1:04:33

Maybe we'll figure it out. But right now we don't understand it.

1:04:36

But I think there is enough Transcribed There's a lot of evidence that there

1:04:39

are ways the universe is connected, whether it's past and future, whether

1:04:43

it's like across space, across time, um, that we don't understand.

1:04:47

And there are proposals like what's called a Noosphere, N O O S P H E

1:04:51

R E, which, um, is this proposal.

1:04:55

It's effectively the ether. Like, you know, we used to have five elements.

1:04:59

You know, earth, wind, fire, and water, and the ether.

1:05:02

Now, scientific theory has figured out that we have four states of matter.

1:05:06

We have solid, liquid, gas, and plasma, but it sort of got rid of the ether.

1:05:12

And yet, if you bring back this concept of an ether, of some, you know, some,

1:05:15

something that connects everything in a way we don't necessarily understand,

1:05:19

It actually sort of starts, potentially starts to, to fill in some of those gaps

1:05:24

in our understanding and what that is. I don't know.

1:05:26

I think the way you explained it is super interesting, um, that there

1:05:29

are like previous versions of ourself that are influencing our decisions

1:05:33

today from a quantum perspective. Like, that's fascinating.

1:05:38

yeah, there's this called, there's Noetic Sciences in the US, um, Ions,

1:05:42

and they have this big conscious conference in a couple of weeks,

1:05:45

the Science of Consciousness, which. Has like fascinating speakers, which I think I will watch some

1:05:51

of remotely if I'm able to. yeah, the other, Rupert Sheldrake calls it a morphic, morphic field, like morphic

1:05:57

resonance fields, and that you can, like, start creating and influencing

1:06:00

these morphic resonance fields. So there's a lot of, like, different, um, ideas around, around the noosphere or the

1:06:07

morphic resonance field or consciousness.

1:06:11

Which I'm just learning about. I think it's like, fascinating.

1:06:15

So, uh, we, we, we have to, we have to wrap up within the

1:06:18

next 25 minutes or so here. So maybe we can, we should start gearing slightly towards a, a

1:06:24

conclusion to the conversation. But, uh, but I know we'll, we'll have to, we'll have to do this again.

1:06:28

Uh, great to connect on, uh, uh, so many, uh, different, different levels.

1:06:34

Uh, here. Uh, I, I really liked, uh, the, the, and the.

1:06:38

Uh, Viktor Frankl there, um, I've, I've had a whole journey

1:06:43

with, with Jung through, through Jordan Peterson's maps of meaning.

1:06:47

I've been doing a, a whole series on, on that with, with, uh, Rob Breedlove

1:06:52

lately, and that book is just, yeah, something, something totally different.

1:06:56

I don't pretend to defend the guy on it, like what he does publicly

1:07:00

these days, but, uh, yeah, some, some good stuff there about the,

1:07:04

the whole kind of meaning angle.

1:07:06

So we might have to dig into that again another time, but, uh, yeah,

1:07:11

I just wanted to get back a little bit to, uh, what, what are you and,

1:07:18

I guess, EgoDeath, Actually, we never got into the name of EgoDeath, so

1:07:25

that would be a good one if you could explain that.

1:07:28

Yeah, it's kind of amazing. We had this idea around creating the fun name, and I'll tell you a little

1:07:33

bit more, and then it's, what's been fascinating, after we named it

1:07:35

EgoDeath, it was sort of a, we're like, well, let's just see how it goes.

1:07:38

It's pretty controversial, but, um, and it's been great.

1:07:43

And that's like, the meaning has unfolded over time almost.

1:07:47

So the idea came really, we were thinking about this transition we're going through

1:07:50

in the world from a very centralized, um, you know, model of society of money

1:07:56

to something that's decentralized and like this big shift that was happening

1:07:59

and how difficult that would be. And so it's sort of like thinking that's sort of what we

1:08:03

wanted to represent was this. Like, this huge, you know, shift where we were going from sort of each thinking

1:08:10

we're an individual to being part of something bigger than ourselves,

1:08:14

being Bitcoin and contributing to that from a very centralized ego

1:08:17

based model to something that's decentralized, community oriented.

1:08:20

And so, as we were talking about these, this sort of concept of ego death came

1:08:23

up of, like, we're having to shift from being an individual to being a collective.

1:08:29

And so that's kind of really where the name came from, you know, from

1:08:32

the background of, of psychedelics and meditation and these experiences that,

1:08:36

that, that are very, very profound of, of, of going from this individual

1:08:40

ego consciousness to, you know, experiencing collective consciousness

1:08:44

or, or, or pure consciousness. and, but what's unfolded is like these layers of meaning in it.

1:08:49

So then we think about Satoshi, you know, creating Bitcoin and then anonymously and

1:08:54

leaving as sort of his ultimate act of ego death, but there was no ego involved.

1:08:59

He wanted nothing from it. Like he's never.

1:09:02

You know, extracted a, you know, Satoshi from his savings.

1:09:05

And so that's one aspect. And I think that's, you know, there's something that's so special about

1:09:09

Bitcoin that can't be replicated. Like no other, no other chain can ever basically, I mean, at some point, but

1:09:17

like for that to really happen, like that's such a special thing about Bitcoin.

1:09:22

then we also think about ego death is, is you're, you're breaking

1:09:26

away or, or, uh, Or releasing the fixed ways in which you see the

1:09:30

world and seeing it as it truly is.

1:09:33

So, you know, and I think that's so related to Bitcoin because you're

1:09:36

actually having to question all of your ways that you see the world, give them

1:09:40

up, like, release the neurons in your brain, if you like, and, and to see

1:09:45

reality as it truly is and be able to see something, something so different.

1:09:49

And we use it as, as sort of an internal guide, you know, we try and

1:09:52

I, it's not possible all the time, but we really try and sort of have this,

1:09:56

like, no ego, no bullshit approach. Um, sorry, excuse my, my language.

1:10:01

Um, and that's what we look for in founders.

1:10:04

It's not always, you know, all of us are human. We do our best.

1:10:08

We try and fail and that's okay.

1:10:11

Um, but it is sort of like a nice guiding principle that

1:10:13

we try and operate as a team. We try and do things together.

1:10:16

We support each other, um, and so it's sort of been that,

1:10:21

yeah, so it's multi layered and still kind of uncovering it, I would say.

1:10:25

Yeah, this is, this is fascinating topic. We've been talking to other guests about this and I just can't help

1:10:30

because I think it's my skeptic nature that brought me to Bitcoin.

1:10:35

So, and my skeptic nature tells me that there's something off about

1:10:40

this whole, uh, Satoshi being this messianic figure that did the

1:10:45

ultimate act of self sacrifice.

1:10:49

I mean, I, as much as I love that story and I wish it to be true, we have no idea.

1:10:55

Of knowing whether it's actually true or not.

1:10:58

Satoshi could have just been hit by the bus and died the day after he sent this

1:11:02

last message, or Satoshi could still be around and be a nym and maybe he mined

1:11:07

the next million Bitcoin and he ran away with those, like there's, uh, there are

1:11:13

so many other possible futures here.

1:11:16

Or possible like explanations to that story that I have, like, I think it's,

1:11:22

uh, There is some danger in, in, uh, uh, painting this picture of this, uh, ego

1:11:29

less human being, uh, this is the slay your heroes thing, like, even Satoshi

1:11:36

would have to be someone we are willing to sacrifice on an altar for the sake of,

1:11:42

of the idea, uh, rather than the person.

1:11:46

That is, to me, that's like the, the core.

1:11:49

Nobody cares who, uh, who, um, uh, Pythagoras was, uh, uh, as a person.

1:11:55

Everyone cares about his equation.

1:11:58

So I think that's sort of how we ought to view Satoshi as well.

1:12:03

Uh, do you see a danger in this, uh, like viewing, um, Satoshis sacrifice as

1:12:09

that, when there's not a hundred percent proof that it actually was a sacrificial

1:12:14

thing? Yeah, I think that's a really good point

1:12:16

and I hadn't necessarily thought about it like that.

1:12:18

I guess I have definitely, yeah, so I think that's all very valid

1:12:22

and, you know, maybe I will shift the way that I, that I view things.

1:12:25

Um, I definitely have thought, you know, if, if Satoshi came around

1:12:30

now and he might be, you know, Who knows what he's going to be like?

1:12:34

And now I think the beauty of Bitcoin is it's sort of beyond him.

1:12:39

Like, if he came and he wanted to try and change things, everyone would be like, no.

1:12:43

Um, and he doesn't have that control.

1:12:48

Yeah, I think, like, what he created sort of now is beyond himself, regardless

1:12:54

of, of maybe the intention.

1:12:57

Maybe it's the CIA that created it.

1:12:59

I mean, I've heard all sorts of, some government, it's China, like, I

1:13:05

don't know if I believe those, like, Well, I don't know.

1:13:08

Aliens. Who knows? Yeah.

1:13:12

I think that's, you know, we do talk about, I think it's something

1:13:15

we do talk to investors about. We do, I think, have to be also thoughtful around that there are still risks in

1:13:21

Bitcoin and it's not this infallible.

1:13:23

So I think what you said is really important, like killing our heroes,

1:13:26

constantly questioning, constantly, constantly, being skeptical because

1:13:30

I think it's so easy to fall. It's so easy to sort of like, Get stuck in one way of viewing the world.

1:13:35

So we appreciate the challenge.

1:13:39

Yeah, absolutely. It's, uh, and we're only human, everyone does it, like, if, uh,

1:13:46

and Bitcoin fits this, like, it acts so much as an explainer for

1:13:53

all that's wrong with the world. Once you view the world through a Bitcoin lens.

1:13:57

Everything makes sense. Okay, this is why we have over consumerism.

1:14:01

This is why we have more and more draconian laws and

1:14:04

totalitarian states and all that. Oh, this is why there's corruption.

1:14:08

This is why people are greedy.

1:14:10

Like, all of it makes sense. Uh, this is why we're bad for the planet and the environmentalism and stuff.

1:14:16

Like, all of it makes sense when you view it through these goggles.

1:14:20

So it's very easy to get your, like, uh, your view of what Bitcoin is,

1:14:24

like, uh, to, to be set in stone at some point, and then you think it's

1:14:30

that, and then all of a sudden it behaves differently than you expected.

1:14:35

I think that's what happened to, to some of the people back

1:14:37

in the fork wars and stuff. They had this view of what it was, and then it shows, then it didn't

1:14:42

behave as they thought it would. And, uh, That's where I think the ego dropping comes in.

1:14:48

Like, uh, you need to drop your ego to, to, to rid yourself

1:14:52

of your own narrative of this. I think to a certain extent, this, uh, this whole spam on the, on the

1:15:00

time chain, uh, thing that has, uh, emerged as an issue now, uh, these,

1:15:07

this last year in Bitcoin has sort of changed my views on, on what

1:15:10

this thing is and how robust it is. And, uh, that it.

1:15:14

Like, I'm not necessarily so happy with, as happy with ossification as

1:15:21

I was before I saw the spam attack.

1:15:23

Like, uh, there could be things that we still need to solve, or there are

1:15:28

things that we still need to solve. So, yeah, I don't really know where I stand.

1:15:32

I'm trying to figure it out. Like, if this is best treated by being ignored or by actively fighting it.

1:15:42

But I need, we need to stay vigilant.

1:15:45

That's the only thing I do know because complacency is if, if anything, it's

1:15:50

complacency that will kill Bitcoin. Like that's the, to me, that's the only attack vector we

1:15:58

always did, did it to ourselves.

1:16:00

And if we, If we kill Bitcoin, we did that to ourselves too.

1:16:04

I truly believe that. I love that.

1:16:06

Like constantly working at staying open minded, it's like takes constant work.

1:16:10

I feel like you constantly, Yeah, because my favorite quote on open mindedness is from Terry Pratchett,

1:16:16

who said like, the problem with an open mind is that people would come

1:16:19

along and try to put stuff in it. So, so, uh, I think there's a lot to that.

1:16:24

I think, uh, open mindedness is kind of worthless if you're not

1:16:27

intellectually honest and like willing to, to, uh, rethink like second and

1:16:33

third thoughts about, about stuff and like to constantly Juggle.

1:16:39

Do brain gymnastics. They're good for you.

1:16:42

Alright, I think we might be coming to a semi natural end to this conversation,

1:16:47

so Andi, is there anything else you'd like to mention or perhaps to direct

1:16:52

our listeners towards if they'd like to find out more about you or EgoDeath

1:16:57

Capital? not specifically.

1:16:59

No, uh, I'm not a huge active Twitter user.

1:17:02

My business partners are much bigger on Twitter than I am.

1:17:04

Um, our website, egodeath. capital has a little bit more about us, our portfolio companies, um, but, uh, you

1:17:11

know, we, we, I think we, I try and stay in the background and let our portfolio

1:17:15

companies, they're the ones that are really like doing the work out there.

1:17:19

Um, so you can go to our website and, you know, view what they're doing, which

1:17:22

is, is, is really what's interesting. Um, if you want to learn more about sort of, I guess

1:17:27

what the companies are doing in the world. Fantastic.

1:17:30

So, uh, Andi, thank you so much for coming on.

1:17:32

Uh, I mean, we have, uh, been looking forward to this conversation

1:17:35

for quite some time now. Uh, great to finally have it.

1:17:38

And I look forward a lot to continue the conversation in

1:17:42

real life when, whenever we meet the next time.

1:17:44

Likewise, it's been a lot of fun, uh, covered some interesting topics.

1:17:47

So thank you very much.

1:17:51

Yup, thank you, thanks again Andi, so this has been the Freedom Footprint

1:17:55

Show, thank you for listening.