0:00

It is a little over a decade

0:02

since the European Union last welcomed a

0:04

new member, Croatia, which celebrated

0:07

becoming the EU's 28th member on

0:09

July 1st 2013. Seconds

0:13

after midnight, Croatia's capital, Zagreb,

0:15

shook to the sound of

0:17

fireworks and echoed to the

0:19

strains of Beethoven's Symphony No.

0:21

9 in D minor, better

0:24

known as the Ode to

0:26

Joy, and as the EU's

0:28

optimistic, if not downright exuberant

0:30

anthem. Since

0:38

then, however, enlargement of the

0:40

EU has not only stalled,

0:43

but receded. The UK's tormented

0:45

departure in 2020 following the

0:47

Brexit referendum of 2016 reduced

0:50

the bloc to 27 countries

0:52

and seemed to add to

0:54

the existential angst created by

0:56

the Eurozone crisis of the

0:58

early 2010s. Negotiations

1:00

with candidate nations, mostly

1:03

Croatia's Balkan neighbours, faltered

1:05

and sputtered. However,

1:08

just as Russia's full-scale invasion

1:10

of Ukraine in early 2022

1:12

roused NATO from introspective torpor,

1:14

it did much the same

1:16

for the EU. And

1:18

in the 26 months since

1:21

Russia attacked Ukraine, Europe's political

1:23

and strategic centre has shifted

1:25

significantly eastward. Candidate status has

1:27

been granted to Ukraine, Moldova

1:29

and Georgia, and negotiations, or

1:31

negotiations about negotiations, have been

1:34

revived with those countries which

1:36

were already in the queue.

1:39

Does the EU need to pick

1:41

up the pace, what have been

1:43

the sticking points, and might the

1:45

UK edge towards rejoining? This is

1:47

The Foreign Desk. In

1:50

Sweden, given the demography, we will need

1:52

in the future people to move to

1:54

Sweden. Europe will need

1:56

people going to Europe because we have

1:58

a shortage. of workforce.

2:00

We need a common legislation in

2:02

Europe so that we can handle

2:05

this together, giving refugees

2:07

asylum that they have the right

2:09

to have, but

2:11

also making sure that we have

2:13

the right workforce. This is the

2:15

basis of the European Union, doing

2:17

things together and improving the life

2:19

of the citizens. I can't wait that

2:21

the war is over and we

2:24

should orient ourselves towards

2:26

that again. The EU aren't getting

2:28

out the party poppers at the

2:30

prospect of a Labour government. Labour

2:32

aren't proposing a wholesale review of

2:35

post-Brexit trading relationships, and the EU for their part

2:37

are thinking, okay, that's fine. If you want to

2:40

negotiate something, we'll talk to you, but we're only

2:42

going to give you something if it's in our

2:44

interest. We're not going to give you presents because

2:46

you're not Conservatives. You're

2:50

listening to The Foreign Desk. I'm

2:52

Andrew Muller. We'll hear first of

2:54

all from the former Swedish Prime

2:57

Minister, Stefan Löfven, who we met

2:59

at the recent Delphi Economic Forum.

3:01

Löfven is now president of the

3:04

party of European Socialists, who he

3:06

will lead into EU parliamentary elections

3:08

in June, elections likely to be

3:11

dominated by far right populists running

3:13

hard against immigration, a divisive issue

3:15

across the continent. I

3:17

began by asking him how confident he was

3:20

about the European Socialists' chances,

3:22

with polls suggesting that Conservatives

3:24

and far right parties will

3:27

gain seats. Well,

3:29

what we see in the last poll was

3:31

actually one of those extreme groups is going

3:33

down and one is going up. But

3:36

from my point of view, every mandate, extremists,

3:39

is no good. So of course we have

3:41

to perform well. I

3:43

think we have a strong manifesto for

3:45

people. We have a

3:47

strong candidate for the Commission presidency.

3:52

But we have to do well, absolutely,

3:54

and take this very seriously because Europe

3:56

is in a dangerous place if we

3:58

have more right-wing extremists. We

4:00

have them cooperating with the Swedish government, we

4:03

have them in Finland, we have them in other

4:05

countries as well and that's not the future for

4:07

Europe. Does it strike you though

4:10

that this election or these European elections

4:12

are going to be essentially

4:14

a referendum on immigration? No,

4:18

I don't think so. There are several

4:20

issues on the agenda for people. The

4:22

cost of living, where many people are

4:24

having a hard time making ends

4:26

meet. Because of the

4:28

cost of living, the inflation, energy

4:31

prices, social security is

4:33

on the agenda. So it's not only

4:35

that on the agenda. But of course

4:37

I'm fully aware that it is a

4:39

big issue for many people. The

4:42

reason I'm asking this of course is

4:44

that your government was a very pro-immigration

4:46

government. You welcomed a great many people

4:48

into Sweden very shortly after you took

4:51

power in 2014. I think

4:53

on your watch nearly a million people

4:56

immigrated to Sweden, which as an addition

4:58

to a population of 10.5 million is

5:00

a significant chunk of the population. Do

5:02

you think in retrospect you were perhaps

5:05

naive, optimistic? The

5:09

truth is that the legislation

5:11

that we had when we took power

5:13

in October 2015, we

5:16

had a legislation in place implemented

5:19

by the former government, the conservative

5:21

government. Four parties in

5:23

that government made an agreement with the Green Party.

5:26

I think it was 2009. So

5:30

that was the legislation that we

5:32

had. That was the legislation that

5:34

had the majority in the parliament. When

5:37

the crisis hit us, and

5:39

it hit us mainly in the autumn 2015 because

5:41

out of 163,000 asylum seekers coming to Sweden in

5:43

2015, most

5:50

of them came from September, October until

5:52

the end of the year. We

5:54

were the ones who changed the legislation

5:57

to make it more equal to us. other

6:00

countries in the neighborhood because the problem

6:02

for Sweden was that the old legislation

6:05

implemented by the conservative government

6:08

it was more favorable to refugees

6:10

compared to Denmark, Finland, Germany

6:12

and other countries. We were

6:14

the ones who implemented a

6:16

tougher legislation. Nevertheless, that

6:18

is still a lot of people that

6:20

came to Sweden which is still a

6:23

relatively small country. I'm just wondering if

6:25

you think because it is such a

6:27

huge issue for the upcoming EU elections,

6:29

for Sweden's most recent election, and it

6:31

is the issue that xenophobic populists across

6:34

Europe bang on and on and on

6:36

and on about because it works for

6:38

them. Like I think the Brexit referendum

6:40

in 2016 was essentially a referendum on

6:42

immigration. I'm just wondering if you think

6:44

there's a danger that broadly

6:47

pro-immigration parties kind

6:49

of get bounced into an impossible position of

6:51

having to say all immigration

6:53

is good we should have more

6:55

of it just in order to

6:57

identify themselves as opposition

7:00

to the xenophobes. No,

7:02

I don't think so. That's not the scenery

7:05

I see. There's no one saying

7:07

oh let's bring in more and more

7:09

people. We've never said that. This is

7:11

an issue of a refugees

7:15

we have to stand up for the

7:17

right to seek asylum. B,

7:19

we have other kind of immigration also

7:21

people coming to Sweden directly to work

7:23

or to study. That's another

7:26

category and

7:28

we need to integrate

7:30

because that's a crucial thing. People

7:33

coming to Sweden need to be integrated

7:35

into the society. That means that we

7:38

need to deal with housing, with the

7:40

training, education and all that requires people

7:43

to be integrated. So if we

7:45

have a balance on that, migration is

7:48

not a problem. We need,

7:50

in Sweden, given the

7:52

demography, we will need in the

7:54

future people to move to Sweden.

7:56

Europe will need people going

7:58

to Europe because We have a shortage

8:01

of workforce. And that's

8:03

why the whole 2015 argued, and

8:06

after that as well, that we need a

8:08

common legislation in Europe so that we can

8:10

handle this together. Then we will

8:13

be able to handle the situation

8:15

giving refugees asylum that they

8:17

have the right to have, but

8:20

also making sure that we have

8:22

the right workforce. So

8:24

migration will be something that we just

8:26

need to deal with it. Because

8:28

we say we don't do that, well that

8:31

will be a huge problem in the future,

8:33

but we have to balance people

8:35

coming into the country with measures that

8:37

make them integrated into the society

8:39

so that people living in the

8:41

country already can see, okay, they're

8:44

coming here, they're also making an

8:46

effort, making something good

8:48

for our country. Where do you

8:50

think Sweden has fallen short on

8:52

the integration though? Because obviously a

8:54

connection has been made between the

8:56

arrivals of large numbers of people and

8:59

the increasing and quite extraordinary problem Sweden

9:01

is having with gang related violence. There

9:03

were 50 people killed in gun violence

9:05

in Sweden in 2023. More

9:08

than 140 bombings reported related

9:10

to gang violence, which is

9:12

the kind of drawback that

9:15

even broadly pro-immigration populations can start

9:17

to get a bit tired of.

9:19

It's about inequality. If

9:22

people don't get a chance to be integrated

9:24

in the same way as people already living

9:26

there, well, you will have problems. We've

9:29

had too few apartments being built

9:31

for many years during the

9:34

government, before the government I

9:36

led. We started to

9:38

increase the building of apartments and

9:40

houses dramatically so that everybody knows

9:43

well that's not an issue, everybody

9:45

can have their chance to decent

9:47

housing. But also training,

9:50

need to increase training, need to increase

9:53

mobility in the workforce and so on

9:55

and so on. We introduced the implemented

9:57

measures so we could see. that

10:00

we shorten the time for

10:02

immigrants to actually being able

10:05

to enter into the labor market. We

10:07

shorten it. It was nine years, nine

10:09

years for 50% of

10:11

a group of immigrants when we took office.

10:14

When I left, it was four, four and

10:16

a half year. So

10:18

that's again what we need and

10:20

that is often linked to the

10:23

integration measures. But arguments

10:25

like that, because they are quite

10:27

nuanced and complicated and subtle, they

10:29

don't really cut through against the

10:31

populist xenophobes. And I know the

10:33

PEP recently suspended the

10:35

smear party of the Slovakian Prime Minister Robert

10:37

Fizzo and the last

10:39

party of President-elect Peter Pellegrini of Slovakia.

10:42

And after that suspension, big

10:44

dip in the polls for your

10:46

party and a bit of a spike

10:49

for identity and democracy because this just

10:51

reinforces their narrative that the establishment is

10:53

trying to thwart the people's will. So

10:55

again, you have to stand for something.

10:57

And the problem with those people that

10:59

you mentioned is also that they're saying

11:01

Putin is, we want peace. And

11:05

we say you have to stand up for Ukraine.

11:08

You have to do that. We have to do

11:11

that. And other signals, if you say, no, Russia

11:13

is not a problem and we should just

11:15

make peace today. We'll make peace today is

11:17

what we just heard, Zelensky.

11:20

Making peace today is that Ukraine loses. And

11:23

then the world order is gone. You

11:26

and charter is gone. So that we

11:28

have to stand up for. So in those cases

11:30

you mentioned is mostly they are more

11:32

pro-Russia than pro-Europe. And that's a

11:35

problem. That was Stefan

11:37

Löfven, former Prime Minister of Sweden,

11:39

now President of European Socialists. You're

11:42

listening to The Foreign Desk. You're

11:48

listening to The Foreign Desk on Monocle

11:50

Radio. Next we'll hear from Ruxandra Ivan,

11:53

State Councillor for European Affairs to the

11:55

Prime Minister of Romania, which joined the

11:57

EU along with its neighbour Bulgaria. on

11:59

New Year's Day 2007. I

12:03

began by asking her if Prime Minister

12:05

Marcell Ciolecou, who got the job last

12:07

June, has a vision for the role

12:10

Romania can play in Eastern Europe. Yes,

12:13

he has a vision for

12:15

the role of Romania. Because

12:17

of the constitutional architecture in

12:19

Romania, most of the foreign

12:21

policy competencies belong to the

12:23

president, and the Prime Minister

12:25

is mainly focusing on

12:27

economic issues. So he

12:30

has done that since taking on the

12:32

mandate. For example, one

12:34

of our most successful economic

12:37

corporations have developed with

12:39

Germany during these more

12:42

than nine months of

12:44

mandate. So we are

12:46

really pushing towards transforming

12:48

Romania into an important

12:51

hub in this new

12:53

geopolitical configuration in which,

12:56

for example, solidarity lanes have become

12:59

so important for getting out the

13:01

grains of Ukraine. But also,

13:04

we are trying to become a

13:07

hub for transport in the perspective

13:09

of the reconstruction of Ukraine. So

13:13

from our point of view, Romania

13:16

is, because of its

13:18

geopolitical position, it

13:20

can play an important role

13:23

in the difficult geopolitical context that we

13:25

are facing. It's a

13:27

glib and inevitably crass way to put

13:29

it, but is it almost for all

13:31

the peril that Eastern Europe is in,

13:34

the renewed attention given to Eastern Europe?

13:36

Is there perhaps an opportunity for Eastern

13:39

European countries, Romania in particular? Yes,

13:42

of course it is. And

13:44

well, maybe it is also

13:46

time for Western

13:48

European countries, as well

13:50

as our NATO partners,

13:52

to listen more

13:55

to what Eastern European

13:57

countries have to say. Because

14:00

Most of the Eastern

14:02

European countries have warned

14:04

about the Russian danger

14:06

before the invasion two years

14:08

ago. For all

14:10

those that Romania is protected by Article

14:13

5 of the NATO Treaty, does this

14:15

still feel potentially like it might be

14:17

a direct threat to Romania at some

14:20

point? I

14:22

won't speak of a direct threat

14:24

more than the other states in

14:26

the region, but of course the

14:28

geographic position is itself a vulnerability. And

14:30

I think the Romanians are not the

14:32

only ones who are feeling

14:35

that there is a threat. This is

14:37

the reason why countries like Sweden

14:40

and Finland have asked to join

14:42

NATO recently, because they are also

14:44

very close to Russia and because

14:47

probably they are also feeling threatening.

14:49

So yes, there

14:51

is a threat. Does Romania's

14:53

government worry specifically about Moldova

14:56

as a vulnerability? We

14:58

believe that Moldova is the second most

15:01

exposed state to the war in Ukraine,

15:03

and now there is a hybrid

15:06

war going on in Ukraine through

15:08

the Russian propaganda. And

15:10

this is why we also believe that

15:13

European Union member states should

15:16

also help Moldova

15:18

to face this

15:20

fake news threat and

15:23

instability threat by providing

15:25

economic aid and other

15:27

kind of assistance that the Republic

15:29

of Moldova needs. So

15:31

yes, we believe that indeed the Republic

15:34

of Moldova is the second most affected

15:36

state by the war, and we are

15:38

trying to fully support it. But

15:40

on that front, though, Romania has

15:42

announced significant increases in defence spending.

15:44

Is this a priority of the

15:46

government now as well, that Romania

15:49

needs to be a much more

15:51

militarily assertive nation? It

15:53

is not a significant increase, because up

15:55

until now we had 2% of the

15:57

GDP allocated for the war. defense

16:00

and now we are we are

16:02

raising that to 2.5 percent so

16:04

yes we are concerned we believe

16:07

that we need to enhance

16:09

our capabilities but

16:12

i wouldn't say that this is the

16:14

primary concern but yes indeed it

16:16

is a concern. I just

16:18

want to go back finally to

16:20

specifically Romania's relationship with Europe and

16:22

i guess where the balance of

16:24

power and balance of focus in

16:27

Europe might be shifting when you

16:29

think of perhaps the future of

16:31

Europe beyond you know one hopes

16:33

the imminent end of the war

16:35

in Ukraine and what

16:37

seems likely that will follow from

16:39

that Ukraine joining the EU Ukraine

16:41

joining NATO. Do you

16:43

feel like that Europe's balance of power could

16:46

be tilting quite dramatically eastwards that this will

16:48

be the new power block of the future?

16:52

Well there have been

16:54

discussions 10

16:56

years already about the so-called

16:58

new euro. I don't know

17:00

i believe that European solidarity

17:04

both west and east both old

17:06

member states and new member states

17:08

is really crucial for achieving

17:11

things together because this is

17:13

the basis of the European Union

17:16

doing things together and improving the

17:18

life of the citizens. I can't wait

17:20

that the war is over and

17:22

we should orient ourselves

17:24

towards that again. Offering a better

17:27

life for the citizens was

17:29

also the reason why people in central

17:31

and eastern Europe wanted to join the

17:34

European Union so i hope there

17:36

will not be a cleavage

17:40

between eastern Europe and western Europe

17:42

because it's not what we hoped

17:44

for. That was Roxandra Ivan, State

17:46

Councillor for European Affairs to the

17:48

Prime Minister of Romania speaking to

17:50

us at the recent Delphi Economic

17:52

Forum. This

17:58

is the foreign desk on Mona While

18:01

parts of Eastern Europe are still clamouring

18:03

to get into the EU, one EU

18:06

country, or at least 52% of its voters, one Thursday in June

18:08

2016, has clamoured to get out. But

18:14

has the emergency occasioned by Russia's

18:17

assault on Ukraine narrowed the English

18:19

Channel at all? I'm

18:21

joined now by Anand Menon, Political

18:23

Scientist and Director of UK in

18:26

a Changing Europe. Anand, did Russia's

18:28

attack on Ukraine at all change

18:30

the UK's relationship with Europe? I

18:33

mean, the answer I suppose is yes and

18:35

no. Yes in the sense that it underlines

18:37

shared strategic interests. Yes in the sense that

18:39

it pushed the UK to work more closely

18:42

with the European Union coordinating on sanctions and

18:44

things like that. Yes, in

18:46

that it has intensified conversations between

18:48

the UK and European allies about

18:51

military cooperation, but nothing structural about

18:53

our relationship with the European Union

18:56

has changed as a result of

18:58

Ukraine. And there's been a lot

19:00

of talk, for instance, about the Labour Party coming in

19:02

and signing a defence pact. So it might

19:04

yet happen. But at the moment it has

19:06

been more sort of ad hoc than institutional.

19:10

We will come back to the degree

19:12

to which a change of government in

19:14

the UK might change anything in its

19:17

relationship with Europe. But there was a

19:19

line which was trotted out, perhaps rather

19:21

hopefully by the British government, that in

19:24

the early stages of the crisis in

19:26

Ukraine, the fact of Brexit gave the

19:28

UK greater freedom to operate, greater freedom

19:31

indeed for Boris Johnson, the then Prime

19:33

Minister, to take the lead on

19:35

rallying support for Ukraine. Is

19:38

there anything to that at all? Would the

19:40

government of this country have been constrained in

19:42

the slightest by still being a member of

19:45

the EU? Not

19:47

legally, no. There's nothing to it at all.

19:49

And if you think back to Iraq where

19:51

the EU divided neatly into two camps with

19:54

fundamentally opposing views, you can see that when

19:56

it comes to foreign policy, countries

19:58

do what's in their interest. and they don't

20:00

feel in any sense tied by intra-European Union

20:03

loyalty. What did change, I think, and it's

20:05

harder to sort of pinpoint, but I do

20:07

think it matters, is Brexit

20:09

provided a political incentive to

20:12

show that the UK was

20:14

still an important and active

20:16

international actor. And my sense

20:18

is Brexit contributed to a

20:20

feeling in Downing Street that look, we're gonna

20:22

have to take the lead on this, because

20:25

taking the lead on it, which Britain did,

20:27

you know, full credit for Britain. We were

20:29

first out of the traps, we were the

20:31

noisiest in our support of Ukraine from the

20:33

start. And I think a part of that

20:35

at least was down to that political incentive

20:38

to show that Brexit notwithstanding, we

20:40

can get out there and lead the pack. If

20:43

we think about that situation from

20:45

the other perspective, was

20:47

there any sense that you were able to

20:49

detect that the fact of the invasion of

20:51

Ukraine and the way that changed the strategic

20:54

calculus made the EU a

20:56

bit more forgiving of the UK

20:58

perhaps, and maybe a bit more

21:00

willing to accommodate the UK as

21:02

a partner of some kind, given

21:05

the UK's value as a military

21:07

and strategic resource? I

21:09

think my answer to that is absolutely not. A

21:13

sense that yes, the EU wants to work with

21:15

us on security. Yes, the EU

21:17

is keen to collaborate, but in both

21:19

senses, they want to do that on

21:21

their own terms. So if you take

21:23

what is perhaps one of

21:26

the most difficult aspects of our

21:28

security relationship, the European Union has

21:30

created something called the European Defense

21:32

Fund to allow member states to

21:34

collaborate on weapons manufacturing and procurements,

21:36

okay? It makes no sense

21:38

to think of European defense broadly with

21:41

the UK left out of that, but

21:43

EU rules prohibit to a significant extent,

21:46

UK involvement. And there's been no

21:48

sign, notwithstanding Ukraine, of the EU

21:50

thinking, we better change our rules

21:52

in this change strategic context. As

21:55

you have already comingly foreshadowed,

21:57

it is generally anticipated that...

22:00

the government of this country will

22:02

change within the next, well, what

22:04

are we up to, seven months

22:07

at the absolute most? We

22:09

have already in recent months seen

22:11

barely constrained rejoicing among the

22:13

EU at a fairly significant change

22:16

of heart in one of its

22:18

member states, i.e. Poland, where a

22:20

Eurosceptic or at least Euro-irritating government

22:23

was replaced by a very,

22:25

very, very pro-Europe one.

22:28

We want the government to change in the

22:30

UK and it is important to stress that

22:32

Labour, the current opposition,

22:35

has absolutely not raised any

22:37

discussion whatsoever of the prospect

22:39

of rejoining the EU, but

22:41

would the relationship nevertheless change, do

22:44

you think, if an amount of

22:46

the Brexit baggage was discarded? Well,

22:49

I mean, there's several questions bundled up there. I think the

22:51

first thing to say is the

22:54

EU aren't getting out the party poppers at the

22:56

prospect of a Labour government for a couple of

22:58

reasons, I think. One because

23:00

we're not a member state, so it matters to

23:02

them less than what happens in a member state.

23:04

But two, because actually relations between this government and

23:07

the European Union are pretty good. We're

23:09

not at the nadir of the time under

23:11

Boris Johnson, where it was seen as good

23:14

politics here to be at loggerheads with the

23:16

European Union. The Sunak government works quite

23:18

closely with the European Union. We work quite

23:20

closely, as we saw, with Sunak's trip to

23:23

Warsaw and to Berlin last week with individual

23:25

European governments. Diplomatically, relations are quite good. When

23:28

it comes to Labour, it's clear Labour

23:30

want to maintain close, good, friendly diplomatic

23:32

relations with the EU. But

23:34

they're not going to do very much to try

23:36

and shift the relationship as far as we can

23:38

tell. They might negotiate a

23:41

couple of bolt-ons to the existing trade

23:43

treaty. They might try and negotiate something

23:45

on security. But Labour aren't proposing a

23:47

wholesale review of post-Brexit trading

23:49

relationships. And the EU, for their part, are

23:51

thinking, OK, that's fine. If you want to

23:53

negotiate something, we'll talk to you. But

23:55

we're only going to give you something if it's in our

23:57

interest. We're not going to give you presents because you're not.

24:00

conservatives. Nevertheless, is

24:02

it imaginable that after Labour

24:04

led by Sakhir Stama have

24:06

been in power for a

24:08

while, things might start to

24:11

shift? Obviously at the moment Labour and

24:13

Sakhir are very much in the mode

24:15

of thinking all we have to do

24:17

is stay in one piece until election

24:19

day and we're going to win this

24:21

thing. So they don't need to make

24:23

any dramatic promises. But once in power,

24:25

especially with a big enough majority to

24:28

see them through a couple of terms,

24:30

can you imagine the UK, I don't

24:32

know, within a decade or so starting

24:34

to edge towards maybe some kind of

24:37

Switzerland or Norway style of arrangement with

24:39

the EU? I mean, look, after

24:41

the last 10 years we've had in this country,

24:43

I think it would be idiotic to rule anything out

24:45

definitively. I mean, who knows? What I would say

24:47

is firstly, how ambitious

24:49

Labour are will hinge partly on

24:52

what happens in the election. So how big

24:54

their majority is and what kind of mess

24:57

the Tories are in afterwards. You can imagine

24:59

a scenario after an election where you're thinking

25:01

realistically this is 10 years because the Tories

25:03

are a mess and they're boring. Or you

25:05

can think, oh, that's quite a

25:07

tight majority. The conservatives are holding it together.

25:09

This might be only five years. If it's

25:11

only five years, obviously Labour will be more

25:13

cautious. Now, let's imagine they have

25:16

the perspective of 10 years. It's conceivable

25:18

they'll be more ambitious. I don't think there

25:20

is a desire among the leadership at the

25:22

moment. I don't think Rachel Reeves and Keir

25:24

Starmer are politicians who obsess

25:27

about Europe. I think they see

25:29

it instrumentally. I don't think they've got a sort of

25:31

European vision for the country. So they're not ideologically

25:34

sort of predetermined to say,

25:36

let's get closer to the European Union.

25:38

They might come under pressure to do

25:41

so from within their own party, from

25:43

businesses, for instance. The one thing I'd

25:45

say about Switzerland and Norway is Norway

25:47

in particular, in the case of Norway,

25:49

the country is a rule taker. It's

25:51

in the single market. It basically applies

25:53

all single market rules, but it has

25:55

no real say, it has a limited

25:57

say, and it has no vote. I

26:00

do not think that sort of situation

26:02

is going to be politically

26:04

sustainable in the United Kingdom. I

26:07

would be amazed if the United Kingdom ended up

26:09

being a member of the single market without being

26:11

a member of the European Union. And on membership

26:14

of the single market, bear in mind that that

26:16

involves not only becoming a rule taker, but also

26:18

accepting freedom of movement and of course paying into

26:20

the budget. And Ant Menon at

26:22

UK Interchanging Europe, thanks for joining us.

26:30

You're listening to The Foreign Desk

26:32

with me, Andrew Muller. Finally, on

26:34

today's show to a country still on

26:36

the outside looking in, we'll hear now

26:38

from Radhika Kudu, Secretary of State

26:40

for European Integration in Moldova. This

26:43

interview was also done at the Delphi

26:45

Economic Forum, which explains the birdsong. I

26:47

began by asking whether Moldova's target date

26:50

of joining the EU in 2030 still

26:52

seems achievable.

26:55

We are pretty confident that we

26:57

can do that because since we

27:00

got the candidate status to the

27:02

European Union and we had the

27:05

decision of the European Council to open

27:07

the session talks, that

27:09

gave us a clear perspective where

27:12

our country is heading to, but

27:14

also a clear path

27:16

of ensuring a better and more

27:18

secure life and future

27:20

for our citizens. But

27:23

also a clear signal that we

27:25

are on the right track with

27:27

our ambitious reform agenda to build

27:29

at home a modern

27:32

European state. We

27:34

didn't start back in 2020,

27:36

you know that we started even

27:38

earlier when we signed the Association

27:41

agreement back in 2016

27:43

and therefore a lot of reforms

27:45

are undergoing. We

27:48

know that it is not an easy process, but

27:50

we are firmly determined to continue to

27:52

move things ahead. I mean,

27:54

there is a lot that needs doing in

27:56

that extremely short period of time and there

27:58

are countries in the western Balkans region that

28:00

have been working on EU accession for a

28:02

lot longer. But the

28:05

big one that I know that leaps out at

28:07

people is obviously the one of Transnistria. Does

28:09

that need to be resolved before

28:11

EU accession is possible? I know

28:14

the EU ambassador to Moldova, Janus

28:16

Madzic, has suggested maybe not, but

28:19

is it actually possible that the Transnistria

28:21

issue could be resolved by 2030? Transnistria,

28:26

first I would like to start

28:28

with the fact that Transnistria is

28:30

the geographically territory of the Republic

28:32

of Moldova and we treat this

28:34

as part of our country. Indeed

28:37

we have a special state to serve

28:39

there and we have the Russian interference

28:41

over there. There are a lot of

28:44

discussions whether we

28:46

have to resolve the Transnistria

28:48

conflict. Is that the backbone

28:50

in the association of Moldova

28:53

and joining the Moldova to the EU?

28:55

But we have to take into account

28:57

also that we have other countries that

29:00

managed to join the European Union with

29:02

a similar conflict

29:05

in the entire country and that's Cyprus. We're

29:09

received a draft of negotiation framework.

29:12

It doesn't specifically specify

29:15

anything about the Transnistria

29:17

conflict and the region

29:20

and we are pretty confident that we

29:22

will go hand in hand and we'll

29:24

manage to integrate both sides of the

29:26

river and the how

29:48

important do you think this is

29:50

for Moldova's future security? EU membership.

29:53

I know Moldova is constitutionally prohibited

29:55

from joining NATO as it presently

29:57

stands but do you feel like

30:00

being a member of the EU makes

30:02

Moldova safer? We

30:04

just see European integration as a project

30:07

of ensuring peace and security.

30:09

And that's what EU has

30:11

managed to prove throughout more

30:14

than 70 years. And having

30:16

the war at the border of

30:18

the country becomes more preeminent as

30:20

need to ensure security and peace.

30:22

And of course, as

30:24

I mentioned before, having

30:26

the candidate status and opening the

30:29

accession talks gives us a clear

30:31

perspective that we can ensure. We

30:33

can move further towards ensuring that

30:36

security and peace at home. But

30:38

also we have to keep in

30:41

mind that accession process is

30:43

a merit-based process. And we're

30:46

really focused on reforming and

30:48

implementing the reform agenda at

30:51

home. And in here,

30:53

I would like to mention the

30:55

judiciary reform that we are undertaking,

30:58

which is probably the most complex

31:01

process of all our reform

31:03

in TIFRS. But

31:05

despite the difficulties and the resistance,

31:07

by the way, that comes from

31:10

inside the system itself, we

31:13

managed to achieve some accomplishments.

31:17

We have been also working

31:19

hard to strengthen the capacity

31:21

of the anti-corruption and prosecutor

31:23

office. We've allocated a

31:25

lot of money. We've changed the

31:28

organizational structure to make sure that

31:31

they have full capacity to

31:33

fight against corruption. So

31:35

to keep the story short, even

31:37

in this complicated area, we

31:39

managed to move ahead. And

31:41

we are very proud and

31:43

determined to continue inclusively

31:46

with selecting an

31:48

independent and

31:50

an expert and

31:53

a dedicated person for

31:55

the general prosecutor position. That was

31:57

Radhika Kudu speaking to us at

31:59

the... the Delphi Economic Forum. And

32:06

that's it for this episode of The Foreign Desk.

32:08

We'll be back next week, and look out for

32:11

The Foreign Desk Explainer, available every Wednesday. The

32:13

Foreign Desk was produced by Chris Chermak

32:15

and Christy O'Grady. Christy also produces The

32:17

Foreign Desk Explainer. To contact

32:19

the Foreign Desk team, you can email

32:22

chris at cc at monocle.com, and don't

32:24

forget to subscribe to Monocle Magazine and

32:26

to our free daily email bulletins by

32:28

heading to our website at monocle.com. From

32:31

me, Andrew Muller, thanks very much for listening.

32:33

Until next time, goodbye.