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Sleep Number stores or sleepnumber.com. Hello,

1:20

Eggchasers. It's the Eggchasers Rugby Podcast, the podcast

1:22

about rugby that doesn't take itself or the

1:24

game to you seriously. Back in

1:26

the Rugby Dungeon again. Because

1:29

there's just too much rugby not to talk

1:31

about. So in addition to the

1:33

early episode that we recorded before Sunday's games, we

1:35

are back in the Rugby Dungeon on this Monday.

1:37

Let's talk about the games we missed, the other

1:40

stories that have been bubbling. And for once, this

1:43

stuff always seems to happen on a Monday. Yeah.

1:46

If we ever work... Or Sunday evening. Yes,

1:48

Sunday evening or Monday. So it's quite timely that we're

1:50

able to discuss this. This is going to be the

1:52

first of three podcasts because we're

1:54

going to do another one for the Patreon feed,

1:57

for all our fantastic patrons, which you can

1:59

find... more content including that which

2:01

will cover some of the salacious

2:03

stories bubbling in Rugby at the

2:05

Minute. Goodness me. What

2:08

a weekend for bad boys.

2:10

Yeah. patreon.com/exchases. You alright Jay?

2:12

I'm good. I'm very very

2:14

good. Before we start though

2:16

let's just have a shout out for North Dorset 7s. We need

2:19

players. Now as I said I

2:21

don't know if you heard my shout out for

2:23

North Dorset 7s players. What's the weekend of the

2:25

6th of July? 6th of July the anti-all blacks

2:28

we only want dickheads. Preliminary.

2:31

We've got

2:33

Billy V playing. We've

2:36

got Stuart Hogg playing. Ugo

2:38

Monius. We've got another runner on the

2:40

wing. So all not exactly confirmed but

2:43

very likely to play. So if you

2:45

think you're equally as much

2:47

of a dickhead please sign up for

2:49

North Dorset 7s right now. Contact [email protected].

2:51

Yeah if you're anywhere if you live

2:53

anywhere near North Dorset 7s you

2:55

can come and play and you can come and be

2:57

a social member. Yeah. Come for the crack because it's

2:59

always always a good laugh. So

3:01

yeah contact [email protected]. Now

3:04

we'll be entering is there a vets competition

3:06

or is that not it's just sevens. I

3:08

don't know. We'll just be playing. I think

3:10

vets on Friday night and then

3:12

there's I think we've got two flavors

3:15

of sevens. Social and super social. Yes.

3:18

So all come as welcome. Yes. The

3:20

social the standard of social was too

3:22

good the last time we were there.

3:24

It was. There were some serious players.

3:27

You don't deserve to call yourself social.

3:29

So they have they have now developed

3:31

a super social competition. Which all those

3:33

amazing players will have stepped down through

3:35

now. Yeah. Yeah.

3:38

So contact [email protected]. I

3:40

unfortunately will be in South Africa. Phil

3:43

I know you're wearing a springbok top today. I am.

3:45

It's good. Picked out until you were so corrupted by

3:47

South African women. Big South African

3:49

learning. Where's your balls Phil. I

3:52

picked this instead of my balls shirt actually.

3:54

Did you really. South Africa shirt. Springbok. Oh

3:56

just on that we were we were asking

3:58

is there a better. Club lock

4:00

combination the tide burn and RG stamen. Yeah,

4:03

no hock Quite a

4:05

few. Yeah. Yes, it was what Matt field

4:07

and back his boater both played together at

4:09

the balls Yeah, yeah, which doesn't

4:11

get a lot better than that doesn't does it?

4:14

I mean is one of the all-time best international

4:16

lock payer in his playing at club I mean

4:18

if we're going historic Kay and Johnson have to

4:20

be up there. Yeah, that's a good

4:22

shot. It's a really good shot Yeah, and

4:24

Apparently in back in 2016 the Stormers signed

4:26

Peter Steph de toy from the Sharks Yeah,

4:29

I'm not and so they had at the

4:31

time Pete's death toy was a lock when

4:33

I first saw him He was a lock

4:35

when he played in 2019 Was

4:38

he I thought he was a really

4:40

some terrible flanker. No, he's no Ben

4:43

Young's run round Him

4:46

at 21 Obviously

4:48

he improved subsequent to that but you'll be you'll

4:50

say he wasn't the player he was in

4:52

2019 So he's a lock. I've never

4:55

seen it. I mean sure he has played lock

4:57

Yeah, but he's literally the greatest player the world

4:59

has ever seen when he's not playing locks. I'm

5:01

not having that Yeah, but Ryan

5:03

groomed. Thanks for the suggestion of back ease and

5:06

picked him out field Which is a great

5:08

one Joe Pinkston contact a [email protected] said white

5:11

lock and Barrett great together of crusaders on the

5:13

show Yeah, who is a good

5:15

partner? He was what's a chief? Retarded

5:18

played most almost all these would be I

5:20

think that the chiefs But

5:24

I couldn't tell you who is

5:27

most famous partner was Right

5:29

on this podcast. We are gonna cover off the

5:32

rugby that we didn't talk about yesterday And the

5:34

reason we didn't talk about yesterday is because I insisted

5:36

to with the boys We did the podcast before because

5:38

I wanted to leave the afternoon and evening exclusively

5:41

for the Lancashire Cup final The

5:44

under under 16th Lancashire Cup

5:46

final. Yeah. Yeah in which My

5:49

son and his brought apart teammates were playing and

5:52

how did that go to tell us all about it? Well

5:55

school was brought in Park 11 Waterloo

5:58

10 That

6:02

is a nail biting scroll line.

6:04

Now off the pod, you were

6:06

very coy about your chances. You

6:08

said you'll be proud of him no matter what. And

6:11

then off the pod you were like I don't

6:13

think we're going to win this. Also they were

6:16

very very good. So tell me what happened. It

6:19

was, and I don't know how many

6:21

times, I always do a little match

6:23

report in the parents WhatsApp

6:25

group afterwards. And I've lost count of the

6:28

number of times I've said in

6:31

awe of the defensive effort

6:33

and how they managed to win that. I don't know how they

6:35

managed to pull off that goal line stand after goal line stand.

6:38

And they did it again. It was a

6:40

really strong wind and we

6:43

probably didn't get as many points as, well they didn't get as many

6:45

points as they needed to. 11-6

6:48

up at half time. Ooh tight then. And

6:50

then Waterloo had all the

6:52

territory in our 22 for about 15-20 minutes.

6:56

Well about 20 minutes to the second half in our 22.

6:59

And it was just heroic. Absolutely

7:02

heroic. And why did you exit? The

7:05

wind was so strong and

7:07

also the lads gave away

7:09

9 high tackle penalties. And

7:12

one yellow card. The referee

7:14

was playing it very much like

7:16

the posters you see in the clubhouses with the

7:18

red zone there. So annoying. So

7:21

anything chest high was high. And we

7:23

were getting penalised off the park and

7:25

didn't react and so you just lost

7:27

all momentum. But absolutely heroic. I

7:32

was saying this after many Guinnesses last night

7:34

chatting to some of the other parents.

7:36

They're at an age now. They're just about to do their

7:38

GCSEs. And you can

7:40

sort of see, it's going to be another blink

7:42

of an eye. You know what it's like with you all the time. Yeah absolutely.

7:46

Another blink of an eye they're going to be gone. But

7:48

I was just looking at that bunch of young men and

7:50

this is why I love rugby. And I was

7:53

sort of thinking yeah life is going to be tough sometimes. It's

7:55

going to be hard. You've got these exams. They're going to be

7:57

a struggle. Job all the time. rest

8:00

of it and I just I was looking at them going they're

8:02

gonna be alright and some

8:05

people say like you know tough things

8:08

like rugby for example builds character I

8:10

actually think it the amazing thing about

8:12

rugby it reveals character yes

8:14

yes it builds character but it

8:16

reveals yeah and it's um yeah

8:19

they're just a awesome bunch of lads and I'd

8:22

coach at the university manmet

8:24

university and you know I think it there

8:26

even more so with these 16 year olds it's like and

8:29

I reckon every coach of young

8:31

age group probably thinks this is like what

8:33

an absolute privilege I think just spend time

8:35

with these people at that age I think

8:37

it is more the discovery of character at

8:41

the age you've just coached that Tim

8:43

because I think you go to university as a

8:45

rugby player yeah well then become one yeah

8:48

there is a slight difference there but yeah

8:50

it happens a lot of times the transformation from

8:52

semi-finalist last year to winners like

8:54

I it was

8:57

they just had this chests out

9:00

in the warm-up I was like okay we're

9:02

alright here we go here we go just

9:05

tell me a little bit about water flow very

9:08

good ball in hand really slick great

9:10

off loads first week three good

9:13

back row they were just they were getting off loads

9:15

in all the time so they we only made one

9:18

line break in the whole match no way why

9:21

didn't they keep the point that

9:23

was it they scored two tries to one yeah

9:25

we've got an amazing fly half

9:28

who every single time when I get to training on

9:30

a Wednesday night he's there with

9:33

a bag of balls doing kicks awesome

9:35

great stuff and it's like 15 15 literally

9:38

that win the game that and that won the

9:41

game he nailed the kicks they missed

9:43

two conversions and a penalty and

9:45

he nailed two penalties what

9:48

was your score 11 10 oh about half

9:50

time as well no 11 6 half time 11 10 full time

9:54

sorry 11 5 11 5 so they've got a few tries 11 5 11 and then 11 10

10:00

Oh my word. You don't expect that from schoolboy

10:02

rugby, do you? No. Wow.

10:05

Well, congratulations, Broughton Park. I look forward

10:07

to seeing you in Toc H. Collins

10:09

soon. Well,

10:12

we've talked about building

10:15

a culture at clubs and you talk a lot about

10:17

having an identity and stuff. This

10:20

is one of those times and I

10:22

think actually the higher ups at Broughton Park was

10:24

the committee and stuff were probably starting to clock. A couple of

10:26

years' time. I'd be surprised

10:28

if the committee had brought Park clock anything. Anything.

10:33

I reckon, and this is what I

10:35

would do personally, I'm very biased, but I reckon there's a lot

10:37

of clubs that I'd be interested to know if

10:39

this has ever happened. Has a

10:41

good Colts team ever just been

10:43

thrust into the seniors as

10:45

like a first team and you build a new

10:47

generation of a team around a bunch of youngsters?

10:49

Do you know? I

10:52

would say, I mean, not to the

10:54

level that you're thinking of like, you

10:57

know, almost instant impact. I'm not saying put the whole

10:59

lot in, that's not what I mean. But West Park,

11:01

St. Helens last year looked like they were good, they

11:03

came with a very young team. They

11:06

beat us and we were good. We were very good

11:08

last year and they beat us from nothing. I

11:11

wouldn't be surprised if a team like Widnes has done that

11:13

because they've been together for so long and they're all local

11:15

ads. There will be a few. There will be

11:17

a few. I reckon all winnings will have done something

11:19

like that. I mean, the teams that don't do stuff

11:21

like that are the teams that we're most familiar with.

11:24

Broughton Park, Manchester, Didsbury, probably,

11:26

essentially, I can't imagine essentially, we'd

11:28

do that. Yeah, certainly not

11:31

first team. Over

11:33

the years there's been a few good second

11:35

teams built on. Yeah, that

11:37

might be good, but that might even be good players.

11:39

Good players. Yeah. I'm just thinking about

11:42

trying to build that culture where people come to the club,

11:44

stay at the club. Yeah. The only

11:46

one which is quite notable is Fleetwood up in

11:48

Blackpool. They used to

11:50

do their matchday programs with asterisks

11:52

for players that have come

11:54

through Minions and Juniors. Through the ranks, yeah. And

11:57

I think we played against a team with 13.

12:00

That's brilliant. But I mean a lot of teams

12:02

in level 7 do that now. They make a big,

12:04

Eccles made a big deal out of it. I'm

12:07

pretty sure Ailsbury have got quite a few.

12:09

It's the teams which are kind of local

12:11

that you'll see doing that, not the university

12:14

or big teams. But I bet you the teams that have that

12:16

have a great atmosphere on a Saturday evening and that's kind of

12:18

what I'm thinking about is yes, you want to do well in

12:20

the league and win your games, but if you

12:22

get a bunch of players that want to

12:25

hang around with each other, that

12:27

will gravitate the families want to feel

12:29

invested and then it suddenly becomes a destination

12:31

and then your club's doing really well on a Saturday. They're

12:34

very different things. Colm Bay was very much like

12:36

that. All the families came down. I

12:38

had a wild time at Broughton Park when it was

12:41

just five teams of nomadic men in

12:44

their mid-20s. Well,

12:46

you know, horses for courses. That

12:49

was class. Very proud of the boys. Yeah, fair play.

12:52

And just as I imagine Rob Baxter is very proud

12:54

of his boys. Yeah,

12:57

they did an absolute number on Gloucester.

12:59

Yeah, I didn't see this, obviously, so talk to

13:01

me about it. Good game, good

13:04

performance. Some

13:06

lovely tries from Exeter. Hard

13:09

stuff up front, as you'd expect. Some

13:11

great lines in the back. Henry Slade

13:13

got some beautiful lines and Dan John

13:16

at 15, who I've I

13:18

don't think I've seen much rugby of previously.

13:20

He had a superb game. It's Dan John,

13:23

Welsh. Surely.

13:26

Exeter, I should say, where they've got a

13:28

load of Welsh players. Of course they have.

13:30

Exeter have got a load of Welsh players.

13:32

He is, yeah, Wales in the 20s. I

13:35

thought I recognised the name. It does sound

13:37

Welsh, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Yeah,

13:40

he had a great game. And

13:43

Gloucester, kind of

13:45

one eye on. They've got semi-final next

13:47

week. They picked a team that suggested

13:49

they weren't. They were

13:51

focused on the prem, but none

13:55

of those players want to get injured and

13:57

miss the semi-finals. Yeah, tiny, tiny shifts have

13:59

big... packs at that level don't they? So when

14:01

you're only 60% committed to a 50-50 you're gonna lose

14:07

most of those 50-50s. So

14:09

I would just say Exeter's store players, look

14:12

at store players, Henry Stave was absolutely sensational.

14:14

He was awesome. He really, yeah, he was

14:16

a difference maker. Jack Vermalen. Who

14:18

got man of the match. We always knew

14:20

he was good but he never seemed like

14:22

a centrepiece of any pack. He seemed more

14:25

like a complimentary player because you remember you

14:27

had Vermalen and you had Kirsten,

14:29

Ewis, Armin, and Simmons obviously

14:33

doing the flashy stuff. Yeah, they were just basically

14:35

the packs you had to pay to have Simmons

14:37

playing. And now

14:40

Vermalen just looks like the main man. He's

14:43

definitely scored one, then he

14:45

runs over his opposite number. He's just a

14:47

barnstorming performance. And then

14:50

all the other guys that you think should be

14:52

good, like the captain, David Jenkins and

14:55

guys that they think are about to take the next step, they

14:58

all look good too. So they seem

15:00

to be, they've got this really, really good

15:02

combination of lads developing and

15:04

lads that are being paid big money

15:06

or bigger money actually doing what they're

15:09

paid to do. But only a handful

15:11

because Baxter confirmed after

15:13

the game that they are

15:15

under the cap this year, though, no specifics. But

15:17

they will also be under the cap next year.

15:20

So they've got

15:23

Headroom that they are not, Headroom

15:25

in the salary cap that they are not bringing

15:29

a huge number of names in. They might bring one or two

15:31

in, but a load of these

15:33

players on

15:36

their next deal will

15:38

be multiples of their

15:40

current deals like David

15:42

Jenkins and Krista Sunzo

15:44

and Feuwoboso and Ethan

15:46

Roots. Chins is

15:48

not exactly what I was hoping that he

15:50

would be. He's had injuries, I think. He's

15:52

not played that much, would be this season.

15:54

But when

15:57

he was, it was last season, wasn't it?

16:00

he was on a really good run that

16:03

led him into the Welsh squad. There

16:05

was one game, it was a

16:07

game against Quinn's that I think Exeter won

16:09

in the last minute. It was like a

16:12

38-36 result and he scored.

16:14

He either scored or set up a

16:16

try in the 78th minute, 79th minute

16:18

to win. It

16:21

was something like he was on his male side

16:23

channel, someone tackled him and he sort of

16:25

offloads it, I'm sure he does. Yeah, because there was a

16:27

debate, was it? Forward, was it

16:29

out? Anyway, back

16:31

then he was playing Superb Ruby. I think this

16:34

season has been hit by injuries. There

16:37

will be a lot of those Exeter players who are

16:39

not on huge money now, who will

16:41

be on much bigger. Failing with both of them, next

16:43

time. I think it's going to be like an

16:46

international, no not international star. Basically

16:48

I think it's going to be one of Ruby's big names,

16:50

like seriously big names. He's just,

16:53

he's so unique. I think

16:55

the attitude he plays, he plays with almost

16:57

like a naivety as to how good he

17:00

is and what's expected of him. The things

17:02

he attempts are ridiculous. Like the

17:04

way he tries to run through traffic he has no business

17:06

running through. I think

17:08

he's going to be an absolutely massive

17:10

star. To add to that, his work

17:12

rate is astonishing. Yeah

17:14

it is. He works so hard to get

17:16

himself into the right position and then when

17:19

he's in the right position, which he almost

17:23

certainly is every time,

17:25

his yards after contact are

17:28

Superb. But he's an

17:30

interesting one because the salary cap

17:32

report that we were discussing, there's

17:34

not a single winger in

17:36

the premiership last season and probably the

17:39

same again this season, earning more than

17:41

300k. So they're

17:43

not your big money players but

17:45

he is undoubtedly a star. Well

17:49

I think he seems like a very, well he clearly

17:51

is a very smart lad because he's a medical student

17:53

but he seems very sweet on his way. Don't be

17:55

kid. They're

17:58

very good at doing exams. Very

18:01

good at doing exams. No, but he seems like he

18:03

switched on as well. So I would imagine he would

18:07

Value a place where he

18:09

is able to do his job very well, which

18:11

will put him in the England shop window Which

18:13

I learned him a lot more money. Yes. Yeah,

18:15

and through sponsorship deals because I don't

18:18

know look at someone like Mario

18:21

toji who's well, we know

18:23

how much someone paid for 25 or 30 percent

18:25

of his image rights. Yep Highly

18:28

talented player very marketable Yeah,

18:32

and it told you had you've

18:34

gone to France say racing Metro

18:36

or any French team You

18:38

will it's incredible in the kit He would have

18:40

been a huge success and more highly paid

18:43

But he would have been probably less marketable overall

18:45

because he's not wearing an international badge I knew

18:47

it didn't stop Johnny Wilkinson being the most marksable

18:49

guy He's already he went

18:52

you know, he's only went up as a markable But

18:55

he'd already won a world cup This is true and

18:57

he'd had ten years at the top under his belt

18:59

at that stage and he was still playing for England

19:02

into law, I think Yeah,

19:05

did he he did he definitely did?

19:08

When did he go because he played in the

19:10

2011 World Cup final? That

19:13

was at work. I might say World Cup final. I'm thinking

19:15

of it. So he played in 2011 squad Was

19:19

that when he went to? I'm

19:22

gonna tell on the problem But it was when

19:24

he scores in the corner he dives in the

19:26

corner. He scores. He's bleeding from his lips Yeah,

19:29

that was when he was it at too long his

19:32

first game back isn't like two years

19:34

and he was amazing Well, he was good We

19:38

were in Edinburgh to watch and yeah,

19:40

which was that was about 20 So

19:45

he played yeah played for he he played for

19:48

Tolan from 2009 and he did play for England at

19:50

the 2011 Highly

19:53

unsuccessful World Cup. So yeah,

19:56

he had at least two years playing

19:59

in France for England which

20:02

he's probably just about the last one to do

20:04

that yeah I remember only

20:06

a few years later a few years

20:08

after 2011 playing in the same team

20:11

as Wilkinson ahead of the 2015 World

20:13

Cup Stefan Armitage was getting talked up

20:15

he was tearing up trees in France

20:17

and getting talked up to play for

20:19

England but no no

20:21

no the exceptional circumstances rule had

20:23

come into place yeah

20:27

I mean when you just cast your eyes onto I

20:29

know it's a two weeks away now but when

20:32

you cast your eyes at the fixtures for around 17 it's gonna

20:34

be something else the

20:37

state of the table and the fixtures that there are

20:39

so you think BAFTA gonna go to Newcastle

20:41

and get a win which will put them on 54 or more

20:44

likely 55 points you

20:49

have got sorry

20:51

I've missed the page there there we go so

20:54

sale will probably get a win at

20:56

home to Leicester because Leicester I don't

20:58

know Leicester are tough the way Leicester

21:01

play is gonna

21:03

be very difficult for sale so we're gonna

21:05

want to beat you up let's we're gonna want to

21:07

beat you up yeah like are they gonna be a sale at home

21:10

would have to back themselves against Leicester if they

21:12

do that they're on 51

21:14

points Leicester have nothing to play

21:16

for yeah they are securing the

21:18

top eight they can't make the

21:21

top four so playing

21:23

for pride boys on the beach yeah

21:25

exactly and then when

21:28

you look at the other fixtures that are coming

21:30

up in round 17 Bristol versus

21:33

Saracens Bristol could go ahead of Saracens in

21:35

the table if they win at home which

21:38

is incredible yeah yeah

21:40

there are only two points behind Saracens yeah Northampton

21:45

gonna beat Gloucester so that'll be fine

21:47

but so yeah that Bristol Saracens game

21:50

is incredible and Exeter Harlequins is was

21:53

a knockout game for Exeter yep

21:56

and again yeah if Harlequins managed to win

21:58

that they would go on 53

22:00

or 54 points which would

22:03

put them above either Saracens or

22:05

Bristol depending on those points and

22:07

whoever loses. Yeah it's gonna it's

22:09

wild could be wild so

22:11

yeah extra really the only extra

22:14

sale of the two teams that can be

22:16

eliminated from contention in the

22:18

penultimate round. Yeah well they

22:20

did just enough just enough.

22:23

It was only the last 10 minutes or so wasn't

22:26

it? 15 minutes? Sale really

22:28

in this. Limping into the playoffs I think if

22:30

they even get there. Limping to the end of

22:32

the season. So I was

22:34

following this through the other game because they showed

22:36

some of the tries and they were keeping you

22:39

up to date with the score line. Sale

22:41

go 14-0 up looking good

22:44

and then two Newcastle tries

22:46

from Cardell and Guy Pepper. Bats

22:48

Guy Pepper. Either side of

22:51

half time both converted made it 14-0 with

22:53

25 minutes left on the clock. Calendiki

22:57

scored shortly after that

22:59

Cardell try and then it

23:02

was only the last 10 minutes sale got two

23:04

more tries to make it a bonus point

23:06

and in the end a comfortable win but

23:09

to leave it with 10 minutes left on the

23:11

clock. Yeah

23:13

limping into the last two

23:15

games. I wonder if the

23:18

priori ship has evolved past sale and

23:20

it's evolved past Leicester as well. You

23:22

look at the teams that are doing very well at

23:24

the moment and I criticized

23:28

Saracens for doing this at the start of the season and

23:30

maybe they were right and I was wrong which

23:33

was all the good teams now have

23:35

a very solid attacking identity. So

23:38

if you look at the premiership pre

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24:43

today. Lots

24:47

of wasps and actually pre the collapse

24:49

of the salary cap. You've

24:51

got teams that just want to be physically dominant. The

24:54

salary cap gets shrunk and we don't see the

24:56

effects of that until a few years later. Then

24:59

what you notice is teams are actually optimising for a

25:02

way that they want to play. The

25:04

styles which are bearing the most fruits seem to be

25:06

the attacking styles of Northampton,

25:08

Bristol Bears, Harlequins,

25:10

Bath and this

25:12

incarnation of Saracens.

25:15

While a lot of the personnel are similar

25:17

to the last few years, they

25:19

are playing in a very different way. They

25:21

are. You've still got Alex Anderson and you've

25:23

still got Leicester Tigers talking about defence

25:25

and aggression off the line. Normally

25:27

they're talking about that. I'm not

25:30

saying they're wrong. Ultimately,

25:33

it might come back into fashion next year because

25:35

these things tend to go in cycles. Only

25:39

two years ago, Leicester Tigers won the

25:42

title with set-piece,

25:44

defence and breakdown. And

25:48

a lot of kicking from Leicester. A lot of kicking. Well,

25:51

from George Ford and the

25:54

Nines' port fleet. Was Wiggy

25:57

still playing then? Yes. Yeah,

26:00

yeah, so I just wanted to

26:02

think by the wrong end of the cycle

26:04

for them, but one of the evolutions in the

26:06

style Of plate you just touched on it It's

26:09

kicking and the attacking kicking rather than that

26:11

yes the box kicking is still there but

26:13

actually the that's the biggest change I've

26:16

seen and it was a phrase that What

26:18

was it? Nick Abendonen And

26:21

when I was down in down in Bearets

26:24

and what went to Bay on where he's coaching and he

26:26

said that they have a phrase that they use which is

26:28

called what they call

26:31

Pierre or you Ma

26:33

and it's handle foot and

26:35

the principal is there's no difference between your

26:37

hand and your foot you

26:40

You you need to move and bend and change the

26:43

picture in front of you and that can

26:45

be with a kick can be there With passing

26:47

it doesn't really matter so you can pass the ball down

26:49

the line that makes the wing a step up then the

26:51

space Out back and you can kick yeah So just kind

26:53

of the fluidity and the skill set that people have to

26:56

be able to like you see the cross field kick Perfect

26:58

example how often do you see that now? Fly

27:00

half low to winger loads of it Yeah loads

27:03

of it and it's completely and that's partly because

27:05

of the wing is a staying in the backfield

27:07

to Defend the long kick the

27:09

space out wide quickest way to get

27:11

the ball there kick it Yeah, and the skill set

27:13

is so good you may have a pass from Harvey

27:16

Harvey I made that nice gonna yeah, Harvey's

27:18

gonna on the weekend at the corner who

27:20

you threw the ball to maybe is It

27:23

would burn that went over top of two

27:25

or three players stunning pass But

27:28

that could equally have been okay,

27:30

which Marcus Smith did a beautiful

27:32

way There's probably many

27:34

more faster with team shaking. Yeah. Yeah, I

27:37

know one of the One

27:39

of the players who you we've put in this

27:41

out before one plays you often think about not

27:43

for his kicking But his kicking is maybe

27:46

the best part of his game is someone like

27:48

ten Russell Mmm, who can really

27:50

can do it all can do the short group

27:52

as can do the cross field kick pass can

27:54

do Rugby's not only to yeah, I can

27:56

do it. What's before about the evolution

27:58

of rugby and how these things go in stages.

28:01

It was defence and box kicks for a long time.

28:03

Defence and box kicks means a lot. You're back three

28:06

steps, stay back. Well, what does that mean? Well, then

28:08

you've got space in the extremities and it just goes

28:10

on and on and on. And then they'll work out

28:12

how to defend that. It'll come back to defence and

28:15

box kicking again. So, I

28:18

just think sail and tigers and

28:21

their lead position probably demonstrates this

28:23

or just at the wrong end

28:25

of the cycle. Yeah, it'd be

28:27

interesting to see how that does, if it does shift

28:30

next season or whether we do see

28:32

just more of this Quinn

28:34

Saints style attacking repeat. I think the way

28:37

that French teams are playing is how Premiership

28:39

teams are going to move more and more.

28:41

And some of the, you know, we've already

28:43

mentioned Quinn's Northampton, it's more so. But

28:46

I think they're going to break out of the structure

28:48

a bit more. You see it almost every single phase,

28:51

nine to a forward runner with one man

28:53

either side of him fly half out the

28:55

back. And that's every

28:57

team down to probably level eight.

29:01

This is a... Broughton Park under

29:03

16 to play like that. This is a win I

29:05

had maybe 12 months ago or 18

29:07

months ago. Has rugby done anything different other

29:10

than one out of the park, one either

29:12

side, one out of the park, one out of the... I

29:14

think I may have said it, set it in the wall cup.

29:16

I mean, this can't be the entire game. And for a long

29:18

time it was the entire game. It was the entire game. But

29:21

what French teams are doing is,

29:24

and what some English teams are doing on

29:26

earth, is that

29:29

reaction when someone sees something having to go

29:31

and the ability to read and react. And

29:33

you mentioned it on the last pod, to

29:37

deliver, like execute when you have

29:39

a line break. Yes. Yeah.

29:41

You have to execute. The

29:43

other thing which is it can be

29:45

in that pattern that you just described, the

29:47

forward runner out the back on either side.

29:50

But Northampton do it much better is...

29:52

Austin Healy pointed this out a few

29:54

weeks ago. Is running the

29:57

same play multiple times, but

29:59

there are... Three or four options every time

30:01

and you pick a different one. So you know, this

30:03

was the ball game wasn't it? It was yeah Now

30:07

that the shape could be as simple as one

30:10

up to eat So what he decided and out

30:12

the back But there was a lot

30:15

more variety and he picked two or three in

30:17

that game where they'd run The

30:19

same exactly the same pattern and one

30:21

hit the person loop him

30:23

round one hit the inside man one hit the outside man

30:25

and It resulted in tries

30:27

you just changing the picture for the defense

30:31

They had lots of ways to play the game. Yeah Now

30:35

should we do a touch on a lot of people have

30:37

been asking what was the text message? No,

30:40

but we will save up for the patron you

30:42

sure yes, we will I thought you wanted but

30:44

we will talk about something In fact, let's go

30:46

talk about refereeing decisions instead Yeah,

30:49

so I just wanted to revisit the call Dixon

30:51

decision. Has anyone I didn't see us

30:54

during the game I've anyone seen it.

30:56

So sorry during the game.

30:58

We commented on it Yesterday,

31:00

but I probably only given it

31:03

a cursory glance when we commented on it I've

31:06

been back and I've watched the

31:08

replays With now reading

31:10

the kind of formal statement has come

31:13

out of from Carl and from the

31:16

There is there's an RFU statement.

31:18

Yeah saying I haven't seen it

31:21

I've been what I've been watching and

31:23

16 rugby on the

31:25

pace and then What

31:34

What Dixon and the RFU claiming is

31:37

that it is not a rough situation

31:39

but simply a tackle situation so not

31:42

having it so Well

31:44

Paul Hall Is

31:47

it poor yeah, just making up I

31:49

mean that's the referees interpretation, okay. Yeah,

31:51

so here is the statement The

31:55

hand in pocket that looks looks

31:57

bad ram ram overran a potential

32:00

Rook running an offload line if

32:03

the Rook have been formed he'd have entered from the side Dixon

32:06

assess the situation. This is after

32:09

the hand-in-pocket point Lack

32:11

of a potential offload from Augustus

32:13

indeed a penalty kick was sufficient

32:15

for the push from care on

32:18

ram He then added Regarding

32:22

the tackle from care on Mitchell.

32:25

There was no rook formed only a tackle

32:28

care comes into the tackle only

32:30

space Sorry, the tackle

32:32

only space from an onside

32:34

position Mitchell is in the possession

32:36

of the ball With the ball

32:38

off the ground and Dixon confirmed this with a

32:41

team TMO therefore

32:43

nothing illegal from this accident

32:46

So he gave the penalty for a push

32:49

so the yes, right, so Addressing

32:52

Dixon initially go into his pocket hole

32:55

concluded Dixon initially thought that

32:57

the Rook had been formed and

32:59

care been cynical playing the nine while off his

33:01

feet He

33:04

had a doubt it was tackle only so removed

33:06

his hand in from his pocket to fully assess

33:08

the situation And once all

33:10

the information had been gathered he deemed no

33:13

Rook only penalty kick or

33:15

the push on ram now

33:17

I've watched it back having read that and We

33:21

read the definition of a Rook So

33:24

yeah, they're what now this is one of the points

33:26

you always say as I'm preempting what you're about to

33:28

say but one of the things you always say is

33:32

Have the law but reflect the way that

33:35

things actually happen on the field otherwise get

33:37

rid of the law or or apply the

33:39

law and this is I think this is

33:41

one of those situations, so I think

33:44

I Was

33:47

certain that was a yellow card when I watched it I

33:50

still think nine times out

33:52

of ten in that exact situation it

33:55

gets given as a yellow card agreed however

33:57

the The

34:00

route that Dixon took

34:04

and this explanation takes to

34:06

explain away the yellow card is

34:08

consistent with the law book. It is

34:11

correct application law. Now, had it

34:13

been a different player, I

34:16

expect we would have seen the yellow card straight

34:18

away. And I think it's not the player that

34:20

I think is the issue here. I

34:22

think it's the second card. Well,

34:25

yeah, because of the player. Okay,

34:27

yeah, fine. So the way I'm saying it,

34:29

he likes Danny Kerr. So the way I'm...

34:32

Yeah, I'm definitely not suggesting there is any bias

34:34

from Dixon. So the way I would put this,

34:36

right, is it's kind of like you can do

34:38

a double movement in open play. You put the

34:40

ball down, you move

34:42

a bit forward and you can have

34:45

a double movement. I cannot

34:47

remember the last time someone has called a double

34:49

movement as a penalty, which is not a try

34:51

situation. Yeah, it never happens. It just doesn't happen,

34:53

although it is like very,

34:55

very rarely where someone rolls... Yeah, rolls the

34:57

extra roll. Or the extra roll.

34:59

Or the crawler from getting to the ball. Or the crawl.

35:01

Yeah. It does happen. It's just

35:04

not one of those things. A couple of times

35:06

in the season, maybe? If that, yeah. So

35:08

the way I'd look at this is

35:10

if you're going to make a decision

35:12

off the hoof, which you're more than

35:14

welcome to do, and

35:17

it's just a yellow card or not a yellow card, go for it. But

35:19

if you're about to dish out a red card, you

35:22

do need to be correct. And it is right to

35:24

go to the TMO to have a look. Again,

35:26

this would all be avoided if rugby didn't just

35:28

have a red card because football has a red

35:30

card. Absolutely. I mean, that would be correct. Yeah,

35:34

we got a really good email

35:37

on this from Ryan

35:40

from Royston. Love

35:42

the pod blar. On the two

35:44

yellows equal red card, I think hockey have

35:46

this right. Field hockey, that

35:49

is, not the fun kind where they punch

35:51

each other. Yellow cards are sim

35:53

bins, and you can have as many as you want unless

35:55

the offenses are the same when two would equal

35:58

a red. made

36:00

two high tech lows but both yellows, then

36:02

the repetition warrants are red, but otherwise an

36:04

additional ten minutes is enough. I

36:07

think that's fair. Yeah,

36:10

there's no reason not

36:13

to do that. Yeah, 100%. I

36:16

think Phil's point is absolutely on the money when he

36:18

says nine times out of ten I'd even put the

36:20

number higher than that. Yeah, you're probably right. Higher than

36:22

that. And this

36:25

is one of those things that infuriates me about the

36:27

laws, it's so exhaustive as we've said so many times

36:29

there's so much of it and a

36:31

lot of it like the feeding in the scrum

36:33

if you're not gonna enforce that law change

36:36

the law book. If a ruck really does mean players

36:41

have to be on their feet over the ball

36:43

then penalize every player off his feet at a

36:46

ruck which is about 85% of

36:48

rucks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

36:50

yeah. I think that is

36:53

a bigger issue. And

36:57

I do like the referees having some discretion

36:59

and not, I used to be against this

37:02

but I've totally, totally changed my opinion. I

37:04

used to always want the law, I used to think

37:06

I wanted the right decision precisely in line with the

37:09

law book. I don't, I want the

37:11

referees to have some discretion and flexibility to be

37:13

able to apply the law as they

37:15

see it. Yep. And

37:17

not necessarily have precise

37:19

compliance with the law book every time. I'll

37:22

give you an example of when they don't

37:24

have, when they are literally inconsistent on every

37:26

single, in every single game about laws being

37:28

applied. Every single game and I think everyone

37:31

agrees their rights being consistent. That's

37:33

timekeeping. Towards the end

37:35

of the game they get much more panickety about timekeeping.

37:37

Last 10 minutes is ref-read almost like

37:39

it's an NFL game. Time on, time off, time

37:41

on, time off. The start of it they don't

37:43

bother. Yeah, yeah. So they do tighten up and

37:46

they do loosen off depending on, you know,

37:49

what the game requires. I'm okay with that

37:51

mostly. I think this

37:53

whole thing, I think

37:57

Dixon has, That

38:00

is discretion a little bit, which I'm okay

38:02

with. Chosen to apply

38:04

the laws as written, or found a way

38:06

to apply the laws as written to avoid

38:09

a red card. Not

38:12

for bias or anything

38:14

like that. I hate the suggestion that

38:17

he is biased because it's quins and

38:19

he might be mates with Danica. I

38:21

really find that just so

38:23

far from the truth. I just foul.

38:25

I think the people that are making

38:27

those accusations towards Cole Dixon are complete

38:29

and utter wankers. And furthermore,

38:32

I don't even like the

38:34

press. There's two strands of this

38:36

I hate. One is it's sort

38:39

of blaming Cole Dixon without blaming him saying,

38:41

Oh, it's our fault for putting him in

38:43

that situation like he's too weak to handle

38:45

it. No, he probably wants to referee Quinns,

38:47

as much as he wants to referee Northampton

38:49

or anyone else, or anyone in a big

38:51

game. Quinn's got three yellow cards. Which

38:56

were all correct. They were all correct. They essentially

38:58

hate all the Quinns except for Danica. And he

39:00

hates only carry a yellow card. So the idea

39:02

that, oh, we can't put him in this situation.

39:05

Oh, it's also going to be too mentally weak.

39:07

No, wrong. Shut up. Trust

39:10

referees. They are bloody good referees in

39:12

the premiership. The UOC is tying

39:14

itself in knots at the moment because they're so worried

39:16

about home country referees refereeing,

39:20

an Irish referee refereeing, Well,

39:23

then don't have a cross border competition.

39:26

You don't worry about the

39:28

referee from Leicestershire. The

39:30

refereeing left. Got

39:33

an English referees, right? The

39:35

only time I do like it is in the international game because

39:37

that's more of a tradition, isn't it? Because you

39:39

have these have them in the actual

39:41

world. In the actual case. Yeah, I love that. Yeah,

39:44

that is cool. That

39:46

should probably come back actually. But yeah, that's

39:48

the only time that I think it's okay

39:50

to make a big song and dance

39:52

about the referee not being from that area

39:54

of the world. Yeah. It's

39:58

an interesting point. The whole thing has

40:01

been interesting and it

40:03

was made worse because of the kind of

40:05

speculation in the media to

40:07

exactly that point before the game

40:09

which was complete nonsense. Can

40:13

you imagine how ridiculous a game of

40:15

rugby would look like if every law

40:18

was enforced all of the time? So

40:21

it would be chaos,

40:24

dreadful, stop

40:26

start, maybe players

40:28

would start to learn and start to actually

40:31

adhere to them but they would have to

40:33

be significant changing behaviours. Also

40:35

thankfully the referees tend to understand

40:37

the game because you don't necessarily

40:39

want the laws being enforced. I know that sounds ridiculous

40:41

but a lot of the laws are not made to

40:43

the benefit of the fans, they're all the benefit of

40:45

the players, they're made to the benefit of the bureaucracy.

40:48

So I think of the absolute

40:50

meltdown which I had personally about the

40:53

high tackle stuff. But thankfully

40:55

we've got referees within the community game who just

40:57

don't care. The game has just not

40:59

changed. In some areas

41:01

and occasionally you do get referred to as enforcing it

41:04

and you've got to change but you want guys that

41:06

understand the game and understand what it is about the

41:08

game that makes it special. You want to

41:10

enforce it to the last of the law all the time. You want to

41:12

remember, Karl Dickson is

41:15

a guy who really wanted

41:17

both barrels for a decision that he

41:19

made which on the

41:21

face of it looks completely logical to most

41:23

people that play rugby. This is

41:26

the Tom Whiteley, oh

41:28

it just completely escapes

41:30

me exactly what happened but it was diving

41:32

in. He's diving in, something happened. Tackling

41:35

him on the floor, sliding into the

41:37

corner. Something like

41:39

that, which everyone agrees that's just how

41:42

you play rugby. But the last

41:44

of the law you're not allowed to tackle someone off

41:46

their feet. Exactly, Karl Dickson's got the World Cup Cup

41:48

coming up, they drag him over

41:50

the coals, if that's a saying, in World

41:53

Rugby He might not get a

41:55

World Cup spot. Next time that happens, he makes

41:58

the decision, which is completely an ugly thing. Actually

42:00

aliens almost every rep be fun but once

42:02

you got it says he's and forcing what

42:04

he's told. See by by the way I

42:06

see don't assembly woman what the referees do

42:08

What the higher ups I know because it's

42:10

and up the abomination you imagine if we

42:12

have them all. The. Laws

42:15

refereed as dictated by idiots

42:17

like Bill Sweeney. Alone whatever

42:19

play a know and would either players

42:21

or the moon's that the all if

42:23

you council fences that to thought to

42:25

us about you know the belly tackle

42:27

thrilla. Assess

42:30

assess of just remote or just

42:32

remembered Something to find on all

42:34

and cases are of see. What?

42:37

Subgroup as I did my. Ordered.

42:41

My prom pedantic referee, right? all

42:43

right hand. Five years though only

42:45

did last year afford. Where is

42:47

it. Always so Mercy

42:49

and all of our classes are able to

42:51

find that he said. And

42:54

also is this would. If.

42:56

The world see this as

42:58

a. As I've been of Athens,

43:01

Where. Is it? Oh yeah yeah yeah so

43:03

this this is why I said on the positive way to. Suck

43:07

up the source! Close

43:10

to what you said of the thoughtless us.

43:12

Return. To

43:18

pay for his such as then.

43:22

Or com find you will for the on the what's

43:24

he was mic wasn't the. The.

43:27

Vidic seems seems like he knows where

43:29

own musical fitment. Made

43:31

this. Over

43:42

for an hour. Or

43:50

so. sulfur. The

43:54

adage goes off a thing or two things. I

43:56

was a Adamson were in a blur. No

44:01

vote to have a cup

44:03

of Us identify for a

44:05

Spencer Sky Sports. Presenter

44:09

know hold off story of

44:11

about set and have you

44:13

seen the James Graham debates

44:15

on. At. Boo hoo boy

44:17

the be an or our problem is about

44:19

safety know but I've seen it's been said

44:22

in our Frighten has a lot of to

44:24

ascribe I like him. I mean I loved

44:26

him as a player. In. I

44:28

think I've actually been with his. Enemies of the

44:30

greatest would declare for the upon the know yeah

44:33

from the British Isles. So.

44:48

I say. Price.

45:05

Of. That's

45:08

the key word is now. Though.

45:12

I the weights. he's been a message saying

45:14

a few things or very similar to that.

45:16

I just love the way so I love

45:19

the way he takes on the narrative. didn't

45:21

hear the practising said. Jim Jim

45:23

just know you shouldn't Yeah yeah it's

45:25

the people's brains are yeah I know

45:27

I play skill set foot in gym

45:30

three or four times a than reminded

45:32

me that eighteen and collisions I see

45:34

no recently the up Xena vision is

45:36

expensive and of we need more people

45:39

like him. Talking. About

45:41

why they were attracted to the

45:43

game so say we shouldn't continue

45:45

to look up improvements of safe

45:47

in safety incrementally on occasions. Run

45:49

the fringes but that's why like

45:51

yeah, you have to keep. The.

45:54

Elements of the game that attracts people. I

45:56

could. Be. are people like james gray

45:58

i really like the A lot harder

46:02

than all three of us put

46:04

together could ever be. But

46:06

on a serious note, they might have

46:08

attracted James Graham to the game, but it's men like

46:10

James Graham that attracted me to the game. So

46:13

you start losing to people like him who

46:16

want that danger. If

46:19

you're a young lad now, you can't

46:22

help but love the way that the Coeys play

46:24

because they're so hard. They

46:26

might not talk like James Graham, but they certainly

46:28

act like it. How funny is Quaggart Smith to

46:30

watch? Oh my word. Exactly.

46:33

So you start trying to eliminate those guys. Violence

46:38

is... James Graham, so I'm just looking here,

46:40

so he played nearly five... 1800

46:42

collisions mate! He played

46:44

nearly 500 games of professional rugby. And

46:48

in rugby league, there are far more

46:50

collisions as well. I

46:54

love it. He's

46:56

a hell of a player. A hell of a player.

46:59

2003 through to 2020. So

47:03

I was going to tell you a story about a panda

47:05

that I met this week who

47:07

told me a very interesting story about

47:09

working for Sky Sports. Patreon?

47:11

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