0:01

The Dream Team Tapes Season two,

0:04

Kobe Lebron and the redeem Team

0:06

is a production of Diversion Podcasts,

0:09

an association with I Heart Radio

0:20

Diversion Podcasts. Welcome

0:26

to episode two of The Dream Team Tapes

0:28

Season two, Kobe Lebron and the Redeemed

0:30

Team. We're calling this Kobe's

0:33

first Quarter. And as you listen to the details

0:35

and descriptions of the ups and downs of Kobe

0:37

Bryant's first eight seasons in the NBA, keep

0:40

in mind that all of this transpires through

0:42

the time he was aged twenty

0:45

five years old. Quarter of a century.

0:48

That's it. I'm j A. Dande

0:51

and I got an up close look at the Kobe show while

0:53

covering the Lakers for ten years at the l A Times

0:55

and ten years at ESPN. And I'm

0:58

joined by Jack McCallum, who made plenty of trips

1:00

to l A when a chronicle of the NBA for Sports Illustrated.

1:03

And Jack, I'm wondering, did you ever come to l A with one

1:06

story in mind only to have Kobe take

1:08

it over? I'll tell you what most

1:10

prominently it was during a strange summer

1:12

of two thousand three, which you're

1:14

going to be concentrating on If you

1:17

recall, the same weekend that the news

1:19

about Kobe's alleged sexual

1:21

assault in Colorado broke, was

1:23

the same weekend that the Lakers were proclaiming

1:26

they had the new super team of the

1:28

century. They had acquired Carl

1:30

Malone and Gary the Glove Peyton

1:33

to go with a you know, already great lineup

1:35

with Kobe and Shack. And that

1:37

week I had arranged to fly out with Carl

1:39

Malone. He had hired a private plane

1:42

to take him to l A. When

1:44

I got to the small town where he was hiding

1:46

out, Jim Hill, by the way, the great l

1:48

A sportscaster, were there, and it looked

1:51

like, Hey, this is gonna be a great story

1:53

about a super team. And next

1:55

thing, you know, the Kobe Bryant

1:57

news that happened in Colorado had

2:00

broke. I never did get to use

2:02

the stuff from the Carl Malone plane

2:04

ride. Yeah, that was probably the the ultimate

2:06

example while Kobe was alive,

2:09

of him just taking over and dominating the

2:11

news. It would happen all the time. Though.

2:13

I went up to cover the NFC Championship

2:16

in two thousand six up in Seattle,

2:19

and usually the NFL's

2:21

Championship Sunday, right the two conference

2:23

championship games is the big story. Loan,

2:25

Behold what happens? Kobe drops eighty one points

2:28

on the Toronto Raptors and sort of takes

2:30

over that storyline as well. It

2:32

would happen again and again where

2:34

Kobe would just come and and dominate

2:37

the news and Jack even in the after lafe

2:39

he could dominate the news. Following

2:41

the tragic helicopter crash in January,

2:45

Kobe Bryant dominated All Star

2:47

Game in Chicago, and he even took

2:49

over what should have been a tribute to David Stern

2:51

right he had passed away on January one, and

2:53

All Star Weekend was really his creation. Under

2:56

his tenure as a commissioner of the NBA went

2:58

from just one game to this weekend

3:00

filled with events and parties and all

3:02

that, and it became the

3:05

Kobe Show of Kobe celebration. All the

3:07

players wore Kobe's twenty four or his

3:09

daughter Gianna's number two in their jerseys

3:11

during the game. He actually provided

3:13

the news in Adam Silver's news

3:15

conference, we are renaming

3:18

our All Star m v P Trophy

3:21

the Kobe Bryant m v P Award.

3:23

Along those lines, Kobe has really

3:25

taken over this entire episode, and that wasn't the original

3:28

plan, as we outlined the ark of this series,

3:31

but really the accelerant in that

3:33

shift was our interview with Phil Jackson, who was

3:35

Kobe's coach from Ton

3:38

with a notable one year break in the two thousand

3:40

four oh five season. And Jack

3:43

when we talked to Phil, he just really

3:45

took us through this incredible journey of his time

3:48

together with Kobe. He could be a little

3:50

elusive, but when you

3:52

got him, it was never predictable.

3:55

You know, he never took you out

3:57

on what you Hey, a lot of times you go in interview

4:00

with somebody and I'm collecting the quotes to

4:02

support what my thesis

4:04

is. And there's guys that are really good

4:06

at doing that. You know what they're gonna say,

4:08

but they're still really great at saying it.

4:11

But Phil always did something that

4:13

set you off on another

4:15

path. And you know,

4:17

I think it's pretty obvious that when

4:20

Kobe died, as was the case with

4:22

many people, but certainly Phil as

4:25

much as anybody you know, really

4:27

started deeply thinking about

4:30

these times with Kobe and some of

4:32

the things he said to us were among

4:34

the best. You know, I've been doing this for fifty

4:37

years, and uh, it was

4:39

really some of the best stuff that I

4:41

had ever heard a coach talking about

4:43

a player. Yeah, at the end of our time with him,

4:46

we asked him to summarize his relationship with Kobe,

4:49

and he made it sound like something from a work

4:51

of literature. Here he is, well,

4:53

I think it's it's almost like a prodigal

4:56

son story. And there we go into

4:59

father elimination illustration

5:03

that you know, there's a conflict,

5:05

and there's wilfulness,

5:08

and there's selfishness, and there's

5:11

um, I can do this on my own type

5:13

of thing, and then there's you

5:15

know, the second life

5:17

or second opportunity that

5:20

really brings back tenderness,

5:23

yielding. You know, it took two

5:25

of us to have that complicated

5:27

relationship early on, you know, trying

5:29

to both be wilful or directed,

5:32

and his was to establish

5:35

himself and his identity,

5:38

and me to establish what a team

5:40

had to do to win and

5:42

the direction that teams have to

5:44

have to have this unselfish behavior

5:48

and bending that will I think

5:50

was done. You know, sometimes in

5:52

you know, in usual ways, like one time

5:55

coming to the facility

5:57

and I had a place that I parking

5:59

spot that was designated mine and

6:01

there was Kobe's car in my parking spot.

6:04

You know, things like that, just you

6:06

know, know that he was gonna entertain me and

6:08

me not reacting to it at all, you know,

6:10

just going on about the day, you

6:12

know, not taking on bridge at anything. And

6:15

so we forged something that was harmonious

6:18

and that that was one of the joys

6:20

of our life. And you know, my

6:22

former repel and partner Jamie

6:25

Buss, says that, you know, we raised him as

6:27

a son of our own, So I guess

6:29

there's something in that together.

6:32

So you can see why we had to clear the way for

6:34

this, much like Kobe

6:36

isolating on the wings so he could go one on one.

6:39

Although I'd say Kobe's ability to steal

6:41

the spotlight also as part of the Lakers

6:44

and the way they steal the spotlight, there's something about

6:46

that franchise. And a great example

6:48

as we get back to the context of USA Basketball

6:51

came in the Olympics, and

6:54

USA Basketball executive Sean Ford told

6:56

us that when they first got to Georgia ahead of

6:58

the Olympic Games and they get to the hotel els around

7:00

midnight and they credentialed everyone

7:02

on the team and then the traveling party

7:04

and then he's told at two am that he has to drive

7:07

Shaquille O'Neil to the Weston Hotel and

7:09

he didn't ask why, and then drive through

7:11

Atlanta and he gets to the West End. As as

7:13

they're pulling up, he discovered the reason. Get

7:16

out and Jerry West is waiting for him at the Lakers

7:18

and uh he was that That's

7:20

when he signed his contract with the Lakers. So Jack,

7:22

if you remember that free agent signing when Shack left

7:24

the Orlando Magic, it oversattled the start of

7:26

the Olympics. Absolutely. I mean it did,

7:29

as you said, overshadow the games. But that's

7:31

kind of understandable. Shack was at the

7:33

height of his powers

7:35

back then and Jerry West

7:37

signing of him. You know, I talked to Jerry

7:40

how many years after that is now, you know,

7:42

twenty five years later, with

7:45

however many signings Jerry has

7:47

done, including you know, drafting Kobe,

7:49

he still gets excited when

7:51

he when he talks about that Shack

7:54

signing. It's very It's really an interesting phenomenon.

7:57

Remember at the time he compared it to

7:59

the bird to his children, and it was that monumental

8:02

an event for him. And

8:04

what we didn't realize though, was that he

8:07

was equally as excited about his Draft

8:09

day trade for Kobe Bryant, And

8:11

initially I don't think we gave that enough

8:14

attention. There was still there was

8:16

curiosity about Kobe. Um. You know, high school

8:18

players going straight to the NBA was was still a

8:20

novelty. The year before, Chemi

8:23

Garnett had become the first player to skip straight

8:25

to the pros and twenty years and

8:27

with Kobe was the first time that a guard had done

8:29

it, So there was that new aspect of it. And

8:32

I went up to the Lakers first road game of the season.

8:34

I was working in washing d C at the time. It took the train

8:36

up to Penn Station in New York City and

8:38

went up stairs and Madison Square Garden, and

8:41

there was so much demand for young Kobe

8:43

and one of his first games as a pro,

8:46

that they actually did a separate press conference for

8:48

him before their game against the Knicks.

8:50

You know, back then, obviously people

8:52

knew about Kobe.

8:55

Clips were not passed back virally

8:57

back and forth. I don't remember, maybe you do,

9:00

but I don't remember a thousand Kobe

9:03

clips at you know, Lower Merion High

9:05

School being passed back and forth. Now in

9:07

the next episode, we're gonna be talking about Lebron.

9:10

By that time, it was different. You know, eight

9:12

years later, everybody who

9:14

was a basketball fan had seen Lebron,

9:17

and Kobe really didn't play in any of these

9:19

as I recall any of these super

9:21

games, you know, I get matched like

9:23

Lebron events Carmelo and stuff

9:26

like that. So Kobe, as

9:28

you said, was still still

9:30

a little bit of a secret. I mean

9:32

not not a full secret, but a little bit.

9:34

Yeah, And we we talked to Eric Aldridge, who was the Lakers

9:37

assistant PR director at the time. He

9:39

was actually the guy that picked up Kobe at the airport

9:41

to drive into his now legendary pre jaft

9:43

workout with the Lakers at the inglewood Y m c

9:45

A. And he he spoke on that aspect.

9:48

Jack, A big part of

9:50

the mystique of Kobe

9:54

was we didn't really

9:56

know who he was. I mean again, this

9:58

was pre social

10:00

media. It was a lot of word of

10:02

mouth. But once the Laker fans

10:04

got to see Kobe for themselves, starting

10:06

in the Summer League game and then early

10:09

with this time with the Lakers, they really formed

10:11

a quick bond. As authors noticed, Well,

10:13

I think from my perspective, what I saw

10:16

was, you know, people love

10:18

your watching brilliance. If you

10:21

think about you know, Tiger Woods,

10:23

you think about athletes who

10:25

were so good so young,

10:28

and then you you're watching

10:30

it unfold in front of your eyes.

10:33

I mean, it's almost like watching your own kid.

10:36

You know, you you see it, you

10:38

see the potential, but he's not there yet.

10:40

It was clear that he wasn't there yet, but you could see

10:43

it. But not only could you see it, you

10:45

can see him working towards it. And

10:47

I think that's the thing that connected him with

10:49

the fan base. And then Robert

10:51

Dory was traded to the Lakers during Kobe's

10:53

rookie season, and from his first

10:55

practice with the team, he noticed that Kobe

10:58

was working towards it even when

11:00

the fans and the TV cameras weren't around. I

11:02

remember Cole was just like, everybody's

11:05

going like a third of a speed and Kobe's

11:07

going one hund and shoot around, Like does

11:09

this guy know this is a shoot around? And

11:12

he was like, you know, I gotta go hard because

11:14

I'm trying to start I'm like, dude, it shoot around,

11:16

nobody goes hard. And

11:19

he just had all his energy and I said, that's

11:22

that's an eighteen year old for you. You You know, that's you're

11:24

gonna have all that energy. And when you wait

11:26

waited this age m game, grinding

11:29

hits, you're gonna slow down. And it was just one of those things.

11:31

He was just trying to learn the game. And

11:33

he was just one of those guys that was in the gym

11:36

constantly trying to get better. I mean every

11:38

play he was going hard.

11:40

So Kobe had his formula for greatness on the

11:42

court, but he didn't have a pathway

11:44

to bonding with his teammates. And part

11:47

of it was the age gap. Kobe was born in ninety

11:49

eight. The next youngest player on the team was born in nineteen

11:52

seventy four. And put it this way,

11:54

how much time did you spend hanging out with seniors

11:56

during your freshman year in college? And

11:58

of course Kobe never had any of that college experience.

12:00

You know, that transition time when you're away from home,

12:03

every's an equal footing. You're in the dorms, you're sharing

12:05

sleeping quarters with the roommate. You've all got

12:07

this community bathroom, down the down the hall,

12:10

and its altres put it. He just didn't

12:12

have those social skills built up yet.

12:14

So altre also members of time. Early in Kobe's

12:17

career, when he and some of the players went to a TGI

12:19

Fridays after a preseason game in Albuquerque,

12:22

New Mexico, and Kobe walks in

12:24

the restaurant. He didn't even join them

12:26

at first. That was a rookie faux pa. And when

12:28

he finally came over, he's astounded that the players

12:30

are drinking, Like he couldn't believe they had a game to

12:32

play the next night and they're drinking alcohol. And

12:35

Robert Rory was one of the players at the table

12:37

and he recalled that night it was all

12:39

about bonding, And I think he didn't

12:42

understand that it's it's about coming

12:44

together and bonding, because if you think

12:46

about it, it was I always believe

12:48

that it was a disconnect because you're

12:50

just eight year old. What do you have in common

12:52

with the a t O in twenty just

12:55

probably video games at the time video games were

12:57

like the level they r now. Um, So

12:59

it was it was a disconnect them. And

13:02

and I think when he turned twenty one, he

13:04

was like, okay, I'm a part of crewing them. But to disconnect

13:07

was did the wall. I should say it was up so

13:10

hard. It was kind of to reconnect. We'll

13:12

be back with more Kobe, Lebron and the redeem

13:14

team after this. So

13:24

then in there's a huge

13:26

new personality added to the mix, Bill

13:29

Jackson. There had been a series

13:31

of playoff disappointments with the Lakers and that led

13:33

to the firing coach Del Harris, and then the

13:35

Lakers didn't think his replacement, Kurt Rambis

13:37

was up to the task, and Phil Jackson was available.

13:40

The reason why I was covered pretty extensively in the

13:42

last Dance and the Lakers signed

13:44

filled with a five year, thirty million dollar contract

13:47

and jack that was really big bucks for a coach

13:49

at the time. It was sort of a little

13:51

version of what had happened in Chicago.

13:54

Jordan was very very close to Doug Collins.

13:56

He had gotten them to a certain point,

13:59

and you know, you don't know whether Phil is

14:01

back there studying the situation and

14:03

going okay, I

14:06

think it's time, you know. And

14:08

it's obviously a combination of taking

14:10

over a team when they're ready

14:12

to mature. I don't think there's any doubt about

14:14

that. But it's also Phil's

14:16

got a little bit of a magic touch that he

14:19

was able to add and next thing, you know, three

14:22

titles in a row. Yeah, and Phil, when he

14:24

took over in Chicago, A he was coming from inside.

14:26

He wasn't coming from the outside. But the advantage

14:29

he had when he came to the Lakers was that he

14:31

was minted with six championships, and

14:34

so they had to respect him. He commanded

14:36

their respect, and I think in part

14:38

it was a message to the star players that they had to get

14:41

serious or they could be the ones out the next

14:43

time. And they responded. As Robert

14:45

Ori noted from the first DAID training camp,

14:47

when they get there and he sees that Kobe's bulked up

14:50

and shock and slimmed down. It's almost like

14:52

they were skin of field and they got

14:54

in the best shape of their lives. They were looking

14:56

good, and they were like, oh, we gotta be ready

14:58

for his upcoming season. And so Kobe was so

15:00

eager to learn from Phil Jackson,

15:03

his idol, Michael Jordan's coach, that

15:06

he went to meet with Phil before his introductory

15:08

press conference at the Beverly Hilton Hotel. Meanwhile,

15:11

Shack cross passed with Phil that summer

15:14

at Jackson's getaway cabin in Montana. He

15:16

was riding around the bay on some jet

15:18

skis that he had borrowed from neighbors.

15:21

As far as you could see, people were standing

15:23

out on their docks and looking at him. And

15:25

he'd been jumping on the trampoline that

15:27

was in my yard, and my neighbors

15:30

kept seeing this figure show

15:33

up above the boat house and Jack

15:35

was jumping on the trampoline, and

15:37

then he went off to the dock and he did he

15:39

dove in the dock, and then he borrowed some jet

15:42

skis and went around. So the big,

15:44

fun loving guy, you know, was somebody

15:46

I knew already. And in that story

15:48

you can hear the affection for Shock and Phil's

15:50

voice. And he was

15:52

also intrigued by the chance to coach a dominant

15:55

center, and that was the one element he didn't

15:57

have with the Chicago teams. And

15:59

so acts and made Shack the focal

16:01

point of the offense. But Kobe

16:03

didn't always follow the plan. He would just go

16:06

rogue, and I pulled him the sideline

16:08

and saying it's not the time to try and

16:10

take over the game. Yet, Yeah,

16:13

I'll get back to it, and he go back and run

16:16

the offense for a little bit. But you know, everything

16:18

was predicated to going through Shack a lot

16:20

at that time, because that's what I said,

16:22

that's what we're gonna do. So how we're gonna attack

16:25

this team and this game. And

16:27

uh, you know, Kobe got tired of

16:29

doing that. But Kobe was capable

16:31

of playing and of working alongside

16:33

Shack. And there's three championship

16:36

banners and Staples Center to prove it. When

16:38

Kobe and Shack joined forces at the top, their

16:41

combined powers were unbeatable. And

16:43

what's interesting to me is that Phil Jackson singled

16:45

out the same moment that I always referenced as

16:47

the display of Kobe and Shack at their collaborative

16:49

best, and it's to play near the end of Game

16:51

seven and the two thousand Western Conference Finals,

16:54

when Kobe crossed up Scottie Pippen. Then he threw a

16:56

lob to Shack and that's the one that finished

16:58

off the comeback against the Portland Trail Blazers

17:00

and it sent them on to the NBA Finals.

17:03

I think it was solidified when jack

17:05

understood that Kobe knew how

17:08

to win what was necessary to win,

17:11

and was able to do the things that

17:13

created the winds, and that

17:16

he would give up the ball at the

17:19

right time to create this. Well,

17:21

the demonstrating moments was

17:24

that dunk against Portland in the game the

17:26

seventh game of that series, when

17:28

you know, all of a sudden, you know, there

17:30

was a movement which everybody was

17:32

expecting Kobe to make some kind of a shot

17:35

or whatever, and he just put the ball

17:37

up there for Shock to to ram

17:39

it down through the hoop. And I think that

17:41

was really a moment that kind of solidified

17:43

everything, and they kind of understood

17:46

then that they were gonna do whatever it took

17:48

to win. It felt like the Lakers would keep

17:50

winning championships for the foreseeable future.

17:53

Jack was Kobe.

17:55

This was his version of college graduation, and

17:58

that was an element that the Lakers, who

18:00

had pretty much stayed set for

18:03

throughout their three championships, and they just

18:05

weren't ready for that element, and and losing

18:07

that, of course, uh led to that drastic

18:09

change that you mentioned earlier when they brought in

18:11

Gary Payton and Karl Malone and they said, okay,

18:13

we need to upgrade, and they majorly upgraded.

18:16

But meanwhile, the mileage of all those deep

18:18

playoff runs had had really worn down Kobe's

18:21

knee, and unbeknownst to the

18:23

Lakers, he went to Eagle, Colorado

18:25

to get surgery. He just did it out of the blue.

18:28

The club was totally surprised

18:30

at the incident and everything and

18:33

all hell broke loose after

18:35

that. And while he was in Colorado, Kobe

18:37

had a sexual encounter with the hotel employee

18:40

and she later accused him of sexual assault, and

18:43

all that led to the most surreal press

18:45

conference I've ever attended, and it featured

18:47

Kobe, his wife Vanessa, and

18:50

his attorney, Pamela Mackie, who was

18:52

voice so here first from in

18:54

the clip from that day, Toby Bryant

18:57

is innocent of the charges that were filed

18:59

at as him today, I'm innacent.

19:02

I didn't force her to do anything

19:06

against her will. I'm

19:08

innocent. In

19:10

that case just loomed over the whole season,

19:13

even despite the additions of those

19:15

two future Hall of Fame players, and

19:17

it also increased the tension between Shaq and

19:20

Kobe. Shack had learned that Kobe

19:22

brought Shack's name into the statement that he gave

19:24

police and one thing it did

19:27

was create even more distance between Phil

19:29

and Kobe. And at the time that Kobe

19:31

probably could have used more support and advice,

19:34

Phil's approach was to give Kobe more space.

19:37

And Phil just didn't know what to make of

19:39

Kobe's presence on the team. He just

19:41

felt the anger emanating

19:45

out of his being. I don't know

19:47

who. He's angry at himself, He's

19:49

angry at the situation, He's angry at the public

19:51

exposure. There's a lot of things.

19:54

I never felt really comfortable with it, and

19:57

I just decided to be hands

19:59

off and situation. It

20:01

felt like a personal upfront to

20:04

me to keep in mind all the other things

20:06

that play. Bill Jackson was in the last

20:08

year of his contract. He was trying to get an extension.

20:10

Shack had another year left on his contract, but

20:12

he wanted an extension, and Kobe

20:15

this was the key could become a free agent after the season,

20:18

and for the first time he was in a position to flex

20:20

his leverage. And I

20:22

don't know if Kobe ever gave Lakers

20:24

owner Jerry Buss an ultimatum

20:26

that he would leave unless Bus got rid of Shock

20:28

and Phil, But I do know I can't

20:30

explain how. But trust me, I do

20:32

know that Bus really didn't

20:35

think Jackson should keep coaching that team.

20:37

And he also realized that he couldn't

20:39

keep both Shack and Kobe, that

20:42

one of them was going to have to go. They couldn't co exist

20:44

any longer. That was his mindset.

20:46

I don't know the extent that Kobe influenced,

20:48

but I'm really confident that that was Jerry

20:51

Buss's mentality at the time. I'm interested.

20:54

You were out there, and uh, I always

20:56

have this this theory, and when you say something is the

20:58

theory, that means it doesn't have to be correct it. I

21:00

always thought that it had to be

21:02

like somebody's team,

21:05

not not two guys team, you know,

21:07

it had to be one guy's team.

21:09

And it always was fascinating to me

21:11

because Shaq was such a dominant

21:14

figure. And maybe it's just because I knew

21:16

him better. I had worked

21:18

on a book with him on in his

21:20

rookie year, and I kind of, like,

21:23

you know, knew I could always gravitate to him.

21:25

He as you said, he was a dominant player. They

21:28

were still using, you know, feed the post

21:30

type of situation and

21:32

the triangle utilize the post person

21:34

so Shack was dominant on the court. But

21:38

and you alluded to this, I think there

21:41

there seemed to be in l A

21:43

the affection between Kobe

21:46

and the fans seemed

21:48

to go beyond what the affection

21:51

was for Shock and the fans, which

21:53

is interesting to me because

21:55

it's a showman's town

21:57

and now Kobe was a showman too, But my god, Shack.

22:01

So how do you kind of explain a

22:03

whose team it was and be the

22:06

the incredible affection Kobe

22:10

had with those Hollywood fans. Part

22:12

of it goes back to the

22:15

old world Chamberlain line, right, Jack, nobody

22:17

roots for Goliath. And even

22:19

though Shack was as warm

22:22

and engaging a big man as we've

22:24

ever seen, and the Lakers had a

22:26

tradition and a rich legacy

22:28

of big men going back to George, Mike

22:30

and and Wilt and Kareem, but

22:33

those guys were never the favorites, right. Jerry

22:36

West and Elton Baylair were fan

22:38

favorites over Wilt's Magic

22:40

was the fan favorite over Kareem. The Laker

22:43

fans never really bonded with Kareem

22:45

the way they did with Magic, And I

22:48

think, just again it's part of it. There's something

22:50

more relatable. Why is Steph Curry so popular, right,

22:52

because he's closer in size

22:54

to the average fan. And Kobe,

22:57

even though he's tall, wasn't a behemoth

22:59

like Shack And that

23:01

was part of it. And you wonder

23:03

if part of it also is that the only uniform

23:06

that Kobe ever wore was the Lakers were

23:08

me Maybe he wore that Charlotte Hornet's cap

23:10

on Draft night, but you know, from the time

23:12

he played his first game, he was in a Lake uniform where

23:15

Shaq came from the Magic and then of

23:17

course later played on several teams after he left

23:19

the Lakers, So that there's

23:21

there are all those factors. And I'm guessing after

23:23

the sexual assault charge, Kobe became

23:26

a more complicated figure,

23:28

a figure of redemption.

23:31

So he became a character that people understand

23:34

in Hollywood when they're pitching a movie.

23:36

People understand that, but Check

23:39

never really had something like that. Yeah,

23:41

if anything, that experienced, that ordeal

23:43

of the sexual assault case

23:47

bonded Kobe with the fans even more and

23:49

and they zealously defended

23:52

him from the get go. And

23:55

you know, he he never lost the crowd. It

23:57

it it never cost him his standing with

24:00

the Laker fans. You're listening to

24:02

Kobe Lebron and the redeem

24:04

Team. We'll be back in just a moment. I

24:11

remember that press conference, by the way, Jake,

24:13

because as I said before, I was supposed to

24:15

be writing the the the Wonderful,

24:17

Feel Good Gary Payton, Carl

24:20

Malone joined up for the super Team.

24:22

And there was this guy next to me, and

24:25

uh, he goes, uh, where are you from? I

24:27

said, I'm from Sports Illustrated. He

24:30

was not impressed. He went up from Celebrity

24:32

Justice. So apparently

24:35

there was a thing I don't know, maybe it still

24:37

exists called Celebrity Justice.

24:39

And I went, oh, ship man, we're

24:41

in a different world here it was,

24:44

and that that season it was it was Access

24:46

Hollywood and and E and and it just

24:48

became this whole other thing. And that press

24:50

conference it felt

24:53

like a movie, just because I

24:56

never thought I would be there for

24:58

something like that. For Kobe Riots,

25:01

it was an outlandist that an athlete

25:04

could find himself in his circumstance. But

25:06

but Kobe Bryant, it just it

25:09

seemed unfathomable that he would

25:11

stand before is accused of sexual

25:13

assault and you and you have the problem

25:16

of how to. I don't want to use

25:18

the word spin because that's not what you're doing. But when you

25:20

write a story or when you're broadcasting, you were

25:22

writing, were you still writing back

25:24

then? Or yeah, yeah, I'm I'm writing. I covered

25:27

every almost every game of that season for

25:29

the l a time. You have to figure out, you

25:32

know, which way you're kind of shading

25:35

it? Do you express utter disbelief?

25:39

Um? The one thing you cannot

25:41

do is, you know, begin casting

25:43

as some people do, you know, begin casting

25:46

aspersions on the accuser.

25:49

Uh, you know right away. And it's a very you

25:51

know, it's a very difficult story to write, and

25:54

to this day it be you know it.

25:56

It is a very difficult thing

25:58

to deal with and of a no win situation.

26:01

I mean, there's a woman who worked at Sports Illustrated,

26:03

who I deeply respected,

26:06

who you know, got really angry

26:08

one day because she thought as the years

26:10

went on, Now this is years later, you know, maybe it

26:13

was when Kobe scored eighty one or Kobe

26:15

one two in a row, why are you

26:18

still glorifying this

26:20

guy? Why are you still And

26:22

you know, my point was, I

26:25

can't begin every story with

26:27

Kobe Bryant Comma who

26:29

was accused of an assault in Colorado

26:31

in July of two thousand three. You can't begin

26:33

every story like that. That a person deserves

26:36

a chance to go on and

26:38

grow. But it's a tough, you know, journalistic

26:41

lesson, I think for anybody to handle. You agree,

26:43

Yeah, And it's made even more difficult than

26:45

that. We never got the definitive declaration

26:48

of guilt or innocence from a court resolution.

26:51

Right, it was dropped before it went

26:53

to court. Again, he reached agreement,

26:55

and that's why I maintain we

26:57

have to allow for the possibility that the

27:00

user saw this resolved

27:02

to her satisfaction. You know, there was a

27:04

large settlement made and Kobe

27:07

agreed to apologize and

27:10

he issued in basically an apology

27:12

and an explanation, and the

27:14

accuser said she would no longer

27:16

cooperate with the prosecutors, and that

27:18

basically ended the case. And

27:21

it's possible that that was

27:24

enough to satisfy

27:26

and she felt, you know, justice

27:28

had been served in that regard and that she got

27:30

what she wanted. We don't know, we've never heard from

27:32

her, so maybe she's still upset,

27:34

maybe she feels like it was insufficient. But

27:37

the fact that um we never did

27:39

hear from her, and I'm certain you

27:41

know there was a degree of silence that was

27:43

part of the agreement that was reached,

27:46

but we've never heard otherwise.

27:48

So that's one thing I've taken into consideration.

27:50

And again a lot of this came up again after

27:53

Kobe died, is that how much of his story

27:56

should we allocate

27:58

for this and uh, should it dominate

28:01

as you said, should it be in the lead paragraph, but

28:03

in his obituary, I'm not certain.

28:05

And it's especially you do have to allow

28:07

for for growth. And then we'll hear from Phil Jackson

28:09

over the course of this series, the growth that he made

28:12

in his relationship, the steps that Kobe

28:14

took in order to for them to

28:16

have a productive working relationship for the

28:18

latter part of Phil's career in

28:20

the second half of Kobe's career, and

28:22

we look at Kobe what he went on to do

28:25

and become such an advocate for

28:27

women's sports um which is what he

28:29

almost became known for, and in particular his daughter

28:32

and and at the time of his passing, he had

28:34

really become a champion for the

28:36

w n b A. So so all of those things

28:39

came into play by the end. Yeah, it's

28:41

unusual. You know, a lot of sports

28:43

figures or celebrities have

28:45

their great falling at the end, you

28:47

know, I mean what he Hayes

28:50

went for years when his behavior

28:52

was like sort of right on the edge. But Kobe

28:55

was different. You know, as you said, I'm

28:57

not excusing his age. By the way, he was certainly

29:00

old enough, you know, not to

29:01

to to know that extramarital sex

29:03

was wrong. Whatever happened. But

29:07

all this, this happened so early in his career,

29:09

and he had so much of his life to live,

29:12

and as much as he had time

29:15

to be derided by fans

29:17

Ford, he also had the time to change

29:20

exacting. But Jack,

29:22

getting back to that notion that his his

29:24

age, and as we've titled this episode, it was the

29:26

first quarter, and in a way that

29:28

benefited him because it allowed

29:31

for him to make the comeback. So

29:33

he still had the prime of his career to come.

29:36

And one thing that we've learned in sports is that

29:38

if you win, if you if you get back to the top,

29:41

much is forgiven. And so one

29:44

of the reasons that the Kobe Bryant story

29:46

is told in the manner it is is that he

29:49

went on to win two more championships

29:51

after this low point, and certainly

29:53

two thousand three four is the

29:56

absolute low point, but he pulls

29:58

himself back from that. But at the

30:00

time it was so different,

30:02

and it's hard to believe that Phil Jackson that you heard

30:04

at the top of this episode and the affection that he had

30:07

for Kobe Bryant, that certainly wasn't the case

30:09

in oh three oh four. And Phil actually

30:11

at that point wanted complete separation

30:14

from Kobe. He even went to the front office and

30:17

asked to get Kobe traded. And we

30:19

know this because he wrote about it in his Diary

30:21

of the season it came out that summer, and also

30:23

because he told it to us once again when we spoke

30:26

to him for this podcast. And I just went

30:28

in and talked to the management and said,

30:30

Yo, I don't think this is the right time right

30:32

now. I think Kobe is uncoachable

30:34

at this particular time in his life. And

30:37

uh, I don't know what your direction is,

30:39

but I think I think you have to really assess

30:41

whether you want to sign Kobe

30:43

for more or how you want to deal

30:45

with this situation. And so that

30:48

happened. I believe the timeline is in

30:50

January two thousand four, and

30:53

then there's various reports about

30:55

what happened is supposedly a meeting that Kobe had

30:57

with Jerry Buss on Super Bowl Sunday.

31:00

What I do know is that it all spilled

31:02

out in the open the week right up before

31:04

the All Star Game, the last game before

31:06

the All Star Break, the Lakers are in Houston, and

31:09

they announced that they're

31:11

pulling their contract

31:13

extension offer for Phil Jackson off the table,

31:15

so he's basically going to be a lame duck in the second

31:17

half of the season. And Shaq

31:20

was very upset by that. We asked Kobe his reaction.

31:22

He said, I don't care. That's three

31:24

word quote. I don't care. So that's shows where

31:26

their relationship was. And then it's

31:28

the All Star Break and we talked about the Lakers overshadowing

31:31

things. Well, they overshadowed that All Star

31:33

break. It's in Los Angeles, and I remember

31:35

people at the NBA were so mad because that's

31:37

supposed to be their showcase, their time to

31:40

hype and promote the league, and all anyone

31:42

that's talking about is the squabbling

31:44

between the Lakers and their superstars. Shot

31:46

did call me after the All Star

31:49

Game and said, Kobe basically

31:51

said something that was derogative

31:54

towards you the All Star Game, and

31:57

um, I think you should talk to him. And

31:59

I said, you know, Cobe just is

32:01

going through difficult time right now. It's

32:04

hard for him to take directions. He's angry,

32:07

he feels isolated, and

32:09

he's drawn into himself. And

32:11

I think the best thing to do is just let

32:13

him be. I think that he's he'll

32:16

he'll find his way through this. And

32:19

so I didn't make an issue out of that, but

32:22

I do know that

32:24

that the contentious nature

32:27

was part of his carriage

32:29

at that time. And

32:32

um, he was announced

32:34

to be a free agent, I believe in right

32:36

before the draft that year, and I

32:39

was dealing with the extension on a contract

32:41

at the same time. Jack.

32:44

The irony is is that basically

32:46

Kobe set Shack up to be the m v P that All

32:48

Star Game. After all they've been going

32:50

through, Kobe kept passing in the ball and

32:53

Chack Win's MVP that All Star Game exactly.

32:55

You know this. I don't think people

32:58

understand the day

33:00

to day totality

33:03

of how a team is together, like how

33:05

much they're together, how they can

33:07

get on each other's nerves. And

33:09

one of the great things I think about Jerry

33:12

Buss, you have Phil, a great coach, a great you

33:14

know, one day we gotta get

33:16

you know, we gotta get rid of Kobe. Next thing, you know, he's

33:18

winning championships with him. And one of the

33:20

great things about an owner like Jerry

33:23

Buss who's not involved in

33:25

this day to day rigamarole is

33:27

he sits back and goes and has a very

33:29

clear vision. I

33:32

think Kobe Bryant is

33:34

the best guy to win us

33:36

more titles. It was like what he said with Magic,

33:39

I don't care if we trade the whole damn

33:41

team. I want Magic Johnson,

33:43

you know. And that's one of the things a

33:45

clear headed owner will do. And

33:48

that's why, Hey, I'm sure Jerry

33:50

Buss did some you know, made

33:52

some stupid decisions like every other owner.

33:54

But I'll tell you what. The guy had his eye

33:57

on the prize and the price

34:00

eyes out of the aughts was

34:02

going to be Kobe Bryant,

34:04

and he saw it. And you

34:06

know, I'm not sure Jay, what I

34:08

would have said about it if I had that decision.

34:10

But he had his decision, that's for sure.

34:13

And so the way the rest of that season played

34:15

out, is that they

34:17

lose. In the NBA post, it had pretty much been

34:19

determined. I'm sure that that Jerry

34:21

Bust decided that Kobe was going to be the

34:24

guy going forward and he was going to be the centerpiece

34:26

of this team. And within a few weeks

34:28

at the end of those NBA Finals, Phil Jackson

34:30

is out as coach, and then Shaquille O'Neil

34:32

is traded to Miami and the

34:35

Lakers as we had known them are no

34:37

more. And everything wasn't

34:39

finished for Kobe though, because he still

34:42

had to resolve the sexual assault

34:44

case. He was based in Colorado,

34:47

and ultimately they reached the resolution

34:49

of that we discussed earlier, and

34:52

they settle out of court and

34:55

the accuser drops the case and will

34:57

no longer cooperate with the prosecutor. The

34:59

problem for Kobe, it though, was he had no idea that

35:01

it was going to play out that way, and so because

35:03

of that, he couldn't promise USA

35:06

Basketball, he couldn't make that commitment to

35:08

play with them for the Olympic team in Athens

35:10

that year. And you

35:13

wonder if that changes the whole course of history. Right

35:15

going back to the initial allegation in the

35:17

summer of two thousand three. It's still having

35:19

an impact here in the summer of two thousand four, and

35:21

it keeps Kobe off the Olympic team because he

35:24

just couldn't make that commitment. He didn't know

35:26

what his what his schedule, what his life was going

35:28

to be like. You didn't even know if he'd be a free man

35:30

at the point of the Olympics. And so you

35:33

wonder though, if he had been on that team,

35:36

do they lose, do they finish with the bronze medal, or

35:38

does Kobe get them to the gold medal as he ends

35:40

up doing in two thousand and eight, And if they

35:43

do win the gold medal, do we not have that reboot

35:45

of the USA basketball program led by

35:47

Jerry Colangelo? And do we not even

35:49

have the whole redeemed team and USA

35:52

basketball as we know it now. That's it's a pretty

35:54

significant what if hindsight.

35:57

But I covered those games, the two thousand

35:59

four Olympic Games and Athens, and

36:02

I can tell you this, Jay Uh,

36:04

I doubt in Game one, when Carlos

36:07

Royo made the United States

36:09

look like a JV team, I

36:11

don't think Kobe would have stood for that ship.

36:14

So I'm

36:16

gonna bet that it would have been different. But I'll tell you

36:18

what. Our episode three coming

36:21

up is about the other alpha dog

36:23

on a two thousand eight Redeemed Team,

36:25

Lebron James. We're gonna be hearing

36:27

about his tale and three

36:29

other players from the Redeemed Team

36:32

who were in that great two thousand and three draft

36:34

class, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne

36:37

Wade, and Chris Bosh. And also

36:39

an account of those strange two thousand

36:41

four Olympics when we only

36:44

came home with a bronze medal. There's

36:46

no pressure. There's no pressure at all. I've

36:48

been getting pressure since I was ten years old. I think

36:50

things could have been different, but we didn't. We never

36:52

had time. I mean, we came at the last minute,

36:54

me and Lebron and did we We We got to call that the last

36:56

minute and the way

36:58

that we looked at him like we we just we

37:00

all here put a rocket film. I'm Jack

37:03

McCallum, I'm je Thanks

37:05

for listening to Kobe Lebron and

37:07

the Redeemed Team.

37:14

The Dream Team Tapes, Season two.

37:17

Kobe Lebron and the Redeem Team

37:19

is a production of Diversion podcasts

37:22

in association with I Heart Radio.

37:25

For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, visit

37:27

the I heart Radio app, Apple

37:30

Podcasts, where wherever you get

37:32

your podcasts. This

37:34

season has written and hosted by me, Jack McCallum

37:37

and j A. Dandee, Executive

37:39

producer Scott Waxman and Mark Frances

37:42

for Diversion podcast and Sean's

37:44

High Tone for I Heart Radio. Our

37:46

editorial director is John Tuttle, Supervising

37:49

producer Brian Murphy, legal

37:52

producer Freddie Overseeghen editing,

37:54

mixing and sound designed by Mark Frances.

37:57

Verna Fields is our technical producer,

38:00

and our director of Marketing and business

38:02

Development is Jacob Bronstein Diversion

38:12

Podcasts