0:00

Sick boy podcast is a health and comedy show

0:02

but what it's like to be sick wait is

0:04

that right? How can illness be funny you'd be

0:07

surprised okay? Sick boy is hosted by me Brian

0:09

stever and me Taylor McGilvie and myself Jeremy Saunders

0:11

Come on in and join us to melt your

0:13

heart learn something fascinating and bust a belly laugh

0:16

trust us You'll be glad you did you can

0:18

find sick boy on the CBC listen app or

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wherever you get your pods This

0:24

is a CBC podcast I'm

0:29

dr. Brian Goldman. This is white coat black card If

0:33

you've spent any time on a hospital ward

0:36

clinic or ER you know nurses are indispensable

0:38

to your well-being Right

0:40

now those nurses are hurting like never before

0:44

Overworked underpaid targets for violence

0:46

burned out leaving the

0:48

profession in droves The thing

0:50

is being necessary for health care doesn't mean

0:53

you have power or even a

0:55

voice and opinion to be reckoned with Which

0:58

makes the gritty nurses all the

1:00

more exceptional my

1:02

one son he has severe severe allergies

1:04

to nuts and Watching

1:06

him have an allergic reaction is very very scary

1:09

as a parent and as even even as a nurse

1:11

That's Amy Archibald Barley a registered nurse

1:14

in Ontario and one half of a

1:16

very popular show called the gritty nurse

1:18

podcast Each week

1:20

she and co-host fellow RN

1:23

Sarah Fung examine hot topics related

1:25

to health care As

1:27

they say on their website we shy away

1:29

from nothing Amy's

1:31

nod to her son's peanut allergy is

1:33

how she personalizes her political comments about

1:36

health care's deficiency It's from

1:38

a recent podcast episode in which she rants about

1:40

parents who waited 11 hours in

1:42

a Toronto ER till their son got

1:44

treated for an allergic reaction The

1:47

fact that they recognize that it's not

1:49

the nurses. It's not the Doctors,

1:52

it's not even the system

1:54

that it's our government. Our

1:56

government is intentionally continuing

1:59

to gut remove funding, remove

2:01

services, increase privatization of healthcare,

2:03

and just does not give a f***. So I'm

2:06

getting to the point where I'm just like, okay,

2:08

you know what? You're not doing that. You're

2:10

not playing with kid gloves. We shouldn't be playing with kid

2:12

gloves either. The F-bombs are definitely

2:14

part of the package. We first

2:16

met Amy and Sarah on White Coat Black Art

2:19

back in 2021. Hi,

2:21

my name is Amy Archibald Farley. I'm a

2:23

podcaster, host of the Grady Nurse podcast, and

2:26

a new author, co-author of the book, The

2:28

Wisdom of Nurses. Hi,

2:30

I'm Sarah Fung. I'm a registered nurse. I

2:33

am the other half of the Grady Nurse

2:35

podcast and also author of The Wisdom of

2:37

Nurses. We

2:39

brought them back because they published a book worth

2:41

checking out. It's called The

2:43

Wisdom of Nurses, Stories of

2:45

Grit from the Front Lines. There

2:48

are lots of reasons why we seldom

2:50

hear what nurses think about healthcare. Those

2:53

who work in the system have good reason

2:55

to fear being censured for speaking out. Amy

2:58

and Sarah are fearless. Amy

3:01

Archibald Farley and Sarah Fung, welcome back to

3:03

White Coat Black Art. Thank

3:05

you for having us. Yeah, thanks for having

3:08

us. Congratulations on the book. Yay.

3:10

I'm so excited. Thank you. It's

3:14

been a busy, busy week. We're super excited

3:16

though. It's really been a rollercoaster. Really

3:19

has been. Your podcast is called The Grady

3:21

Nurse and the subhead of the new book

3:23

is Stories of Grit from the Front Lines.

3:25

What is it about that word grit? That

3:28

means that's such a touchstone for you. Sarah, let's begin

3:31

with you. Nursing is not

3:33

an easy profession and you definitely need to

3:35

have that grit to pick yourself back up

3:37

when things don't go right and especially because

3:39

we do so much for patients. We're there

3:41

for the best days, the worst days of

3:44

their lives, everything in between. I think it's

3:46

a trait that all nurses have whether or

3:48

not they realize it. It's certainly what we

3:50

needed to get through some difficult times. The

3:53

reason that we started the podcast is that we were

3:55

having a difficult time at work and we needed to

3:57

show grit and we don't like to use the word

3:59

resilient. resilience, but grit definitely is a term that

4:02

I think is something that we

4:04

all have within us. A lot of what we

4:06

do doesn't get the credit it deserves. And a

4:08

lot of it is that we have

4:10

so much knowledge and wisdom within us that we

4:12

wanted to write a book about all of the

4:15

different great things nurses do and all the wisdom

4:17

we can impart, not just upon

4:19

our patients, but the greater society. In

4:23

your book right off the top you

4:25

ask if people can name nurses,

4:29

and of course you mentioned Florence Nightingale. And

4:33

here on White Coat Black Art we have no

4:35

trouble naming nurses. All you have to do is

4:37

look at the ranks of hospital CEOs. Leslie

4:41

Thompson who was a nurse before she became

4:43

the CEO of Kingston General Hospital where she

4:45

put patients on hospital committees

4:47

and gave them a voice. Now she

4:50

runs Accreditation Canada, Vicki Kaminski who was

4:52

a nurse before running Health Sciences Center

4:54

in Sudbury, Health Sciences North. Then

4:57

she ran Eastern Health and then she moved to Alberta.

5:00

And there are so many nurses

5:02

like that. So I want to ask you

5:04

Sarah, why do nurses make the best hospital

5:06

CEOs? I think that nurses

5:08

have a lot of transferable skills from what

5:10

they learn at the bedside and it translates

5:13

into really understanding what it is like at

5:15

the ground level. And they see all of

5:17

the problems along the way and they really

5:19

have a boots on the ground perspective as

5:21

to how to solve these problems. I think

5:24

in a lot of cases, you know, we

5:26

have those critical thinking skills, we can read

5:28

rooms, we can build relationships. I

5:30

think I could go on, but there are

5:33

so many things about nursing that make them

5:35

perfect candidates to be CEOs. Yeah,

5:37

and I would add one more attribute

5:39

to that list and that is the

5:42

ability to rebound from adversity and use

5:44

adversity to gather strength. And I'm thinking

5:46

that the two of you met working

5:48

in leadership at the same

5:50

hospital. Amy, you recruited Sarah, right?

5:52

I did. Can you

5:54

tell me about what was going on for both of you

5:57

at the same time that helped you connect? You

5:59

know, I'm... Really, when I

6:01

think back to how we first started to

6:03

connect, we actually say that was the first

6:06

person who recruited me in a previous role

6:08

where I was a labor and delivery nurse,

6:11

but then moved into leadership. But then the

6:13

second role, I recruited her, but

6:15

we really bonded over our experiences

6:17

in maternal child. Of

6:19

course, that we both had children that were

6:21

similarly aged, but then we further

6:23

bonded over the fact that there were

6:25

some mental health challenges, particularly bullying.

6:29

We were both bullied by our senior

6:31

leader at that particular

6:33

organization, which we do talk about in the

6:35

book. We both left

6:37

the organization. I quit actually before Sarah.

6:39

I quit about two weeks before her.

6:41

Had no job prospects lined up. The

6:45

important thing was preserving my own mental health

6:47

and Sandy. Again, there was just no supports.

6:50

You would think that in healthcare that we would

6:52

have better supports for mental health and

6:55

people would be more understanding, but we found

6:57

that that was the complete opposite.

7:00

We were able to bond over that. That's how

7:02

the Greeting Nurse podcast came to light. I remember just saying

7:04

to Sarah, hey, nobody listen

7:06

to us. Why don't we just create our own

7:09

table? We'll say what we want to say. Maybe

7:12

someone will listen. Maybe someone won't, but at least

7:14

we'll share our experiences because we knew that we

7:17

couldn't be alone. That's how we connected. Amy,

7:20

can you say some of the things that

7:22

were going on? You

7:25

talked about being bullied. Can you say a little bit more about that?

7:28

Yeah. I mean, it all started. I think there

7:30

was a little bit of a honeymoon phase, right?

7:33

You started new, fresh at a job. Then

7:37

I remember slowly the gas

7:39

lighting would start. It would be something as

7:42

simple as we sit in

7:44

a meeting together with our various leaders

7:46

and folks around the table. I

7:48

might just discuss, hey, this was what

7:50

we discussed previously in this meeting. The

7:52

leader might have been like, no, we've never

7:55

had that conversation. It

7:57

would make me look like I was crazy. would

8:00

go to situations where I was actually being

8:02

yelled at and demeaned in front of my

8:04

peers and colleagues to which colleagues would turn to

8:06

me and say, are you like the meeting would

8:08

end and they'd be like, are you okay? Like

8:10

that was really unprofessional. Um, I

8:12

don't know why this individual was treating you

8:14

this way. And it really started to make

8:16

me question like, am I doing, am I

8:19

poorly performing my job? And I knew that

8:21

wasn't the case. And it got so

8:23

bad to the point where I would hear this individual

8:25

coming down the hall and I

8:27

would be terrified. I'd turn off the

8:29

light in my office. I actually would

8:31

hide underneath my desk, um, to avoid

8:34

this individual. Wow. And, um, obviously got

8:36

to a point where it was, um,

8:38

untenable and it was unsafe for me to

8:40

be there. And even when I

8:42

brought that forward to again, other leaders,

8:45

um, some of the things that they would say is maybe this is

8:47

not your time or, you know, maybe it's

8:49

the workload. I was like, it's not the

8:52

workload. It's the individual. And again, no support

8:54

was really given to, you know, um, to

8:57

really help me at that time. Sarah,

9:00

you were having experiences of your own. Can

9:02

you talk about those? Yeah. In

9:04

a different organization, I actually started in a

9:07

role and the person that

9:09

held that role previously was still on the

9:11

team. So I thought this is a perfect

9:13

situation because they're still on the team. They

9:15

can tell me everything I need to know.

9:17

They can introduce me to everyone. Well, it

9:19

turned out the exact opposite happened where this

9:21

person seemed bent on making sure that I

9:23

did not succeed to the point where one

9:25

of my roles was to review cases when

9:28

things went wrong and this person would purposely

9:30

not give me information I needed to do

9:32

the job. So when people say that poor

9:34

teamwork leads support outcomes, that's a perfect example.

9:36

I was supposed to be reviewing

9:39

cases where things went wrong. And as a team,

9:41

we were supposed to be making recommendations. I wasn't

9:43

even getting that information and I was being told,

9:45

Oh, you didn't know this happened. Well, you should

9:47

have known. And at the time I

9:49

was expected to cover three different sites. I couldn't

9:52

even physically be on the unit. And

9:54

you know, to the point where they would

9:56

cut down my suggestions in front of a

9:58

large group of people. they

10:01

would purposely make comments about my physical appearance

10:03

which made me very uncomfortable. I remember going

10:05

to my office one day and just locking

10:07

the door and crying because I didn't know

10:09

what to do and I didn't have

10:11

anybody to talk to so it

10:14

wasn't really until Amy came along that I felt

10:16

like I had someone to talk to that understood

10:18

what I was going through. Did

10:20

either of you, Amy, Sarah,

10:23

know what the other was going through until

10:26

you started to to confide in one another? Not

10:29

really. I think we had a sense that

10:31

there were some challenges that we

10:34

would have these car ride homes where we

10:36

talk and vent about our frustrations and challenges

10:39

on the job but we never really sat

10:42

down in detail that we think this particular

10:44

individual was pinpointing either myself

10:46

or Sarah. It was really

10:49

only until afterwards that we were kind

10:51

of like this happened to me too

10:53

and yeah that's

10:56

kind of it was really after having those conversations that

10:58

it was like wow I didn't realize it was that

11:00

bad for you and wow I didn't realize it was

11:02

that bad for you as well so it was really

11:06

really unfortunate that that had to happen to both

11:08

of us. Yeah and I I

11:11

do what a lot of nurses do I

11:13

think where is when someone treats me poorly

11:15

I immediately blame myself so the reason that

11:17

I didn't share with you Amy was because

11:19

I thought it was only happening to me.

11:21

I thought it was something that I was

11:23

doing wrong. Yeah. I was the only one

11:25

that was doing something wrong so to speak.

11:27

Yeah I think that speaks to the gaslighting

11:29

right? Absolutely and feeling like you're

11:31

alone I think that's part of it when you're

11:33

being gaslit you're meant you're made

11:35

to feel like this is your fault

11:37

and you're the only one going through it

11:39

and you're not worthy and you're not adequate.

11:41

We're on the thing that we need to dismantle is the

11:43

fact that you know we don't we don't see ourselves

11:46

as equal players or equal contributors to the

11:48

care team right and that's a

11:50

problem too so I think that's another aspect that we

11:52

need to talk about but I don't know if we

11:54

have time to dive into that today. I would agree

11:57

and I think part of the problem is that a lot of people are just

12:00

of bullies are never held accountable particularly

12:02

when they're in positions of leadership. There's

12:04

this term that I discovered a couple

12:06

years ago and it's called toxic rockstar.

12:08

Toxic rockstar. Yeah toxic

12:11

rockstars. So a toxic

12:13

rockstar is someone who

12:15

delivers results on paper so let's

12:17

say they're able to improve

12:20

the bottom line but at the expense of

12:22

everyone else on the team and when you

12:24

look at the team that's under them there's

12:27

high turnover so they're not being held accountable

12:29

for the high turnover good people that leave

12:31

under the leadership of this person but they're

12:33

looking at their accomplishments so to speak and

12:36

it's really sad because the leaders that Amy

12:38

and I speak about they're still in those

12:41

positions and in some cases they've moved up

12:43

during this time but their

12:45

reputations have not changed yet nothing is being

12:47

done about it. Even now nothing's

12:49

being done about it. Nope they're still there

12:51

in these positions which is it's

12:54

amazing to think about you

12:56

know that sometimes these behaviors like Sarah

12:58

said are promoted up as opposed

13:00

to being promoted out or even you

13:02

know conversations aren't necessarily had about changing the

13:04

way that people behave. I think that

13:07

would be pivotal in health care if

13:09

we actually started calling out

13:12

bad behaviors and people actually being penalized for

13:14

them. I think that would be huge or

13:16

or given an opportunity to at least make

13:18

change or to do something differently. I think that

13:20

would be a huge shift in health

13:22

care. Is it going to happen? I will

13:24

have to wait and see. You

13:27

know we have

13:29

physicians and nurses nurse

13:32

practitioners registered practical nurses

13:34

and other health care providers

13:37

all dealing with unprecedented shared

13:39

crises like burnout, quitting,

13:42

emergency department closures. Are

13:45

you seeing any change? Do we have each

13:47

other's backs Amy? You

13:50

know I have seen a

13:52

shift right where I've seen various different

13:54

coalitions particularly emergency

13:57

department physicians like yourself really come

13:59

out. and show out for nursing and

14:01

vice versa. I do see that there is

14:03

a shift in terms of how things are being

14:05

done, but again, we need to continue to build

14:08

on our teamwork skills. We need to continue to

14:10

build off of how we could better partner together,

14:12

how we could better communicate. And I think that

14:14

you have an excellent book where you talk about

14:17

the power of teamwork, and I think it's important

14:19

that we continue to go down that route. We

14:21

continue to dismantle hierarchies, and we continue

14:23

to have an open conversation with one another. Because

14:26

again, if our goal is the same, we need to

14:28

be able to work together.

14:30

And I think that means having some

14:33

courageous conversations and also calling out some

14:35

bad actors when that occurs. But I do

14:37

see that the support is starting to

14:39

pick up and build up particularly during

14:41

the pandemic, and it is continuing on.

14:44

So I'm looking forward to seeing how

14:46

we can continue building our relationships

14:48

together with physicians as well. Even

14:53

healthcare workers of different kinds are under

14:55

stress these days. They're beginning

14:58

to realize they have that in common, that

15:00

Amy and Sarah believe that is comforting.

15:04

We'll be right back. Between

15:09

today's wellness ads and news about tomorrow's medical

15:11

breakthroughs, it's hard to know what health information

15:13

actually applies to you. Luckily, there's

15:16

a podcast that breaks through the noise,

15:18

Ted Health from the Ted Audio Collective.

15:21

Join host Dr. Shoshana Unger-Lider as she

15:23

introduces you to leading health experts that

15:25

break down the questions you didn't know

15:27

you had. Will eating a plant-based diet

15:29

make you healthier? How does your neighborhood

15:31

impact your health? How will medical treatments

15:33

change in the future? Learn all this

15:35

and more on Ted Health. Find Ted

15:37

Health wherever you get your podcast. You're

15:46

listening to White Coat Black Art. This week,

15:48

a conversation with Amy Archibald Varley and Sarah

15:50

Fung, registered nurses and co-hosts

15:52

of The Gritty Nurse podcast. Their

15:55

book is called The Wisdom of Nurses, Stories

15:57

of Grit from the Front Lines. It's

16:00

one thing to complain about what's wrong with

16:02

healthcare. Quite another to

16:04

take the next step and articulate how things

16:06

should change. Here's

16:08

part two of our conversation. You

16:13

know, as I hear

16:15

you speak, Amy and Sarah as well,

16:17

I hear you as emerging

16:21

advocates. You both made that

16:23

pivot as I have made

16:25

that pivot. What

16:27

made both of you want to do that? To

16:30

go from actively nursing to advocating for

16:33

nurses and helping them tell their stories?

16:36

I think that I just realized that there was

16:38

so much fear and silencing in nursing that we

16:40

would always have these what I call break room

16:42

conversations where we would vent to each other but

16:44

nothing was ever done about it. And we were

16:46

not speaking to the right people. We were just

16:48

speaking to, we were preaching to the choir. And

16:51

what really shifted for me was I

16:53

realized that we needed to talk to

16:56

more people and we needed to have

16:58

a bigger platform. And so advocacy, the

17:00

podcast, writing the book is a way

17:02

to reach more people and keep this

17:04

conversation going and eventually switch the

17:06

mindset of more people. And I think

17:09

just having power in numbers, having

17:11

more people hear a story, more people know

17:13

they're not alone and know that there's something

17:15

that can be done is really empowering. You

17:18

know, Amy, your pivot to

17:21

journalism and advocacy resonates

17:23

with me, both of you. I

17:26

still work in the emergency department though since

17:28

White Co. Blackguard. There are times

17:31

when I've sensed a distance between me and

17:34

other physicians. Is

17:37

that, what's been the

17:39

reaction from nurses and physicians and

17:42

other healthcare providers to your public

17:44

work? Yeah, you

17:46

know, that's such a great question. I

17:48

think as soon as I mentioned that

17:50

I am a freelance journalist, I think

17:53

a lot of nurses, they clamor up

17:55

and they don't want to say anything or they're

17:58

just like, wow, that is actually... really

18:00

really interesting and how did you get into

18:02

that? But I think for the

18:04

most part it's been positive because again, this is where we

18:06

need to see nurses in various different aspects. How

18:09

could we how could I not use my

18:11

voice in advocacy to you know, bring that to

18:13

a new story or

18:15

to highlight something that you know, maybe folks

18:18

don't know about or understand about from

18:20

a journalistic standpoint. And

18:22

I think that you know a lot of folks find it

18:24

rewarding to see a nurses in different positions. So

18:26

as much as some people might be a little

18:29

bit shocked, they find it quite exciting to see

18:31

that, you know, I've taken on this role of

18:33

activism as well as journalism. I

18:36

think nurses are just surprised pleasantly

18:38

to see that you can be in these

18:40

spaces. We certainly, Amy and I,

18:42

we didn't have any role models doing what

18:44

we do now. We kind of just went

18:46

for it. And so why I

18:49

do what I do also is to show nurses that you

18:51

can do it. And there's a

18:53

there's a huge fear about either losing your

18:55

job or losing your license by advocating. So

18:57

I want to show nurses that it is

18:59

possible to advocate and not

19:02

have these things happen. So there's

19:04

just showing the public that nurses can

19:06

do things that traditionally

19:09

we haven't been seen doing. Yeah,

19:12

I feel like just adding the the more I'm

19:14

told that I can't be in a space the

19:16

more I'm told that I shouldn't be in a

19:18

space or that I might get in trouble for

19:20

that for doing something or saying that is

19:22

the more likely I'm gonna be able

19:24

to make myself take up that space.

19:27

So I think that's just something that nurses need

19:30

to do. You need to

19:32

take up space and just because you're told that you

19:34

can't does it mean that you can't and

19:36

that you you need to you need to at least

19:38

don't knock it until you try it. You

19:41

know the two of you cover some very

19:43

gritty subjects in your podcast. Was there anything

19:46

that you were nervous about covering Amy? Oh

19:49

my goodness. I would probably say

19:51

that we were nervous about you know talking

19:53

so viscerally about our own mental health struggles.

19:55

I think of course, it's never

19:58

an easy conversation to talk about. yourself

20:00

in that particular way but again I

20:02

think the reason why myself and Sarah

20:04

did was to let other people

20:06

know that they were not alone. I would say that's

20:09

probably the scariest aspect of our book

20:11

for me and being so

20:13

visceral and open about how I struggled with

20:15

mental health. Yeah and I

20:17

think for me I'm still nervous

20:19

about sharing my bullying experiences

20:21

because there's still some part of me that

20:24

thinks that there's going to be retaliation even

20:26

though I know I don't work at this

20:28

organization anymore. I have not spoken to these

20:30

individuals for years. There's still something in the

20:32

back of my mind that is waiting for

20:34

the other shoe to drop. I

20:39

wrote a little book called The Night Shift. That

20:41

was my third and

20:43

the two of you have things to say

20:45

about The Night Shift in

20:48

your new book The Wisdom of Nurses. Amy

20:51

you like Night Shift. I

20:54

love them and I think this is

20:56

where you know if Sarah and

20:58

I differ, Sarah loved The Day Shift. I

21:00

love The Night Shift. I just found

21:03

that there was so much more camaraderie on

21:05

nights and a real

21:07

opportunity to actually learn a lot about

21:09

your nursing colleagues because of course particularly

21:12

if you don't have a busy shift or

21:15

you know sometimes in labor delivery you didn't

21:17

have any patients that we would sit down

21:19

and really get to know each other. We

21:21

created a family in a

21:23

community. I think that for me is just you know

21:25

sometimes it was a I was really able to kind

21:27

of get down and do the work that I wanted

21:29

to do because there wasn't that administrative burden that there

21:31

is on the day shift where you know there might

21:33

be many huddles or you're stopped to do this or

21:35

you're paused to you know take a photo with a

21:37

politician who comes in you're like I still have meds

21:40

to give. So I found that nights really

21:42

gave you the opportunity to one learn more about your

21:44

patients and to learn more about your colleagues. An opportunity

21:46

to one learn more about your

21:48

patients and to learn more about your colleagues.

21:51

One of the things I love about Night

21:53

Shifts is not having to keep answering the

21:55

phone with unsolicited calls. I've heard your consent.

22:00

think, one of the things you said resonated

22:02

with me, in the book you said that you

22:04

felt like you had more autonomy at

22:06

night. And I'm going to suggest agency, that you

22:09

made a bigger difference,

22:11

that your opinion was more important

22:14

in that moment. And I certainly

22:16

feel the same way. I feel

22:18

as if I have more time to think. Can

22:20

you talk about that autonomy that you have

22:23

felt when you work at night? Yeah,

22:25

you know, I think that it's a

22:28

really empowering thing when you know, particularly

22:30

you bring a baby into the world by yourself,

22:32

which I've done a couple of times. And

22:35

I think it's really empowering to be that person

22:37

to be able to say, hey, I actually did

22:39

that. Maybe it's because I'm a

22:41

little bit of an adrenaline junkie, that I

22:43

really enjoyed those aspects of care. But it

22:45

really makes it does make you feel a

22:47

much more empowered and makes you feel that

22:49

you have agency and autonomy in those those

22:51

particular aspects. Sarah,

22:56

you seem to have a different view of night shifts. You

22:59

know, I enjoy everything that you just said.

23:01

It's just for me, the sleep was always

23:03

the issue. So I was one of those

23:06

people that could never sleep before or

23:08

after a night shift properly. That's why I

23:10

stayed away from them. I found that I was

23:12

eating all night during my shift, and then

23:14

I would go home and eat all day because

23:16

I couldn't sleep. And that wasn't healthy for

23:18

me. There's just a different feel, even though you're

23:21

in the same physical space. It's a completely

23:23

different world at night. I

23:25

hate to close out this conversation, but but we

23:27

are coming to a close. And I really need

23:29

to ask one last thing

23:31

because it's it's it's it's important.

23:33

We can't have this conversation without

23:35

talking about the fact that nurses

23:37

are leaving the profession or thinking

23:39

about leaving the profession as never

23:41

before young and old. Why

23:45

is this happening, Amy? You

23:47

know, I think this again speaks to the fact

23:50

of, you know, nursing being silenced

23:52

as a profession. And we've

23:54

been sounding the alarm bell for for many, many

23:56

years. I remember talking about, you know, nursing shortage when

23:58

I was in nursing school. school and talking

24:00

about the fact that retention has been an

24:03

issue for many years. And

24:05

again, we saw the crippling effects of

24:07

COVID-19 on the workforce through burnout,

24:10

through mental health distress, through

24:12

moral injury, where nurses were just saying,

24:14

you know what, I've had enough. Many

24:17

of my friends and colleagues who had

24:20

been in the profession for many years, well,

24:22

they were early career, mid-career, just say, you

24:24

know what, I'm done. I would rather work in

24:26

a different area than continue to

24:29

be treated this way. I'm

24:31

so excited that we do now have a chief

24:33

nursing officer of Canada, which we didn't have for

24:35

over 10 years, which is Dr. Lee Chapman. And

24:38

I was able to, myself and Sarah, were able

24:40

to work on the nursing retention toolkit, which

24:43

is really talking about what nurses

24:45

need to stay at the bedside. And now I

24:47

really hope that each of the provinces,

24:49

because there was that historic announcement with Minister

24:51

Mark Holland of the $200 billion that

24:54

would come into healthcare, and now it's

24:56

really up to the provinces to put their

24:58

money where their mouth is to retain nurses,

25:00

to look at this document and say, nurses

25:02

are talking about aspects related to

25:04

childcare, related to

25:06

having proper staffing complements, related

25:09

to better wages. And

25:11

I really hope that the government does

25:13

listen to us, because again, we'll

25:15

just continue losing more and more experience

25:17

and expertise. And that will put

25:19

patients and families at risk. The more

25:21

we leave, the more we can't support,

25:23

because of the disrespect, it's problematic. So

25:25

I really hope that we'll see some

25:28

change. Sarah, last

25:31

word to you. What do

25:33

you think the system needs to provide so that we

25:36

retain nurses better than

25:38

we've been doing now these last

25:40

few years, particularly the last few years? I

25:44

think the first thing is very simple, is

25:46

listen to what nurses have to say. This

25:48

toolkit that we speak of was created with

25:50

an incredible amount of input from a wide

25:53

variety of nurses at all different levels, all

25:56

different practice settings. It is a playbook for

25:58

how we can bring nurses back. to

26:00

the profession and retain the ones that are still

26:02

here. So we talk about very

26:04

specific things like flexibility and work scheduling, more

26:06

mental health support, support for leaders too. How

26:08

do you become a great leader? It can't

26:10

just be because you've been a nurse for

26:12

a certain number of years. There has to

26:15

be some support and some

26:17

accountability that goes into being a leader.

26:19

So it goes into a lot of

26:21

detail about what is actually needed. So

26:23

I think now the onus is on

26:25

leaders, organizations, and governments to look at

26:27

this document and actually put the resources

26:29

in it that are needed. But

26:31

first listen to the wisdom of

26:33

nurses. 100%. Amy

26:37

Archibald, Barley, and Sarah Fung. It's been a pleasure

26:39

speaking with you. Good luck with the book and

26:41

thanks for joining us on White Coat Black Art. Thank

26:44

you so much for having us in

26:46

unison. The

26:49

Nursing Retention Toolkit Amy and Sarah

26:51

talked about was developed for nurses

26:53

by nurses. One of

26:56

the toolkit's key aims is to

26:58

empower nurses of all levels, roles,

27:00

and settings to experience fulfillment in

27:02

their work and to

27:04

become leaders within their organizations. It

27:07

would not surprise me to count Amy and

27:09

Sarah among those leaders in the years

27:11

ahead. That's

27:15

our show this week. If you'd like to

27:17

comment our email address is whitecoat at cbc.ca.

27:20

White Coat Black Art was produced this week by

27:22

Jennifer Warren with help from Stephanie Dubois and Samir

27:24

Chhabra. Our digital writer is

27:27

our intern Gwyneth Egan. Our digital producer

27:29

is Ruby Buisa. Our senior producer is

27:31

Colleen Ross. That's medicine from my

27:33

side of the gurney. I'm Brian Goldman.

27:35

See you next week. For

27:42

more CBC podcasts

27:44

go to cbc.ca/podcasts.