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0:29

Laramie. Just a

0:31

heads up. The following episode

0:33

has brief mentions of suicide. Please

0:36

take care of when listening. If you're

0:38

having suicidal thoughts or need someone to

0:40

talk to, please call the national

0:42

suicide and crisis lifeline by dialing

0:44

988.

0:46

Previously, on the coldest case in Laramie.

0:49

And I know that you and

0:51

your friends on the left side are very tight.

0:54

You were very select group of people. You

0:57

don't think so? Well, in

0:59

us, white folks think that you

1:00

are. Okay? If if I just knew

1:02

that they

1:03

weren't looking in the right direction and they didn't have

1:05

a freaking clue who did that because if

1:07

they're sitting there doing all of this to

1:09

us, they didn't know what they were

1:11

doing. They had no idea.

1:13

What

1:13

kind of party were we having there?

1:16

We were just stats around it, but I do

1:18

believe there was there were ten quarters when I

1:20

first got there. What what's quarters? Yeah.

1:23

Was Shelley Primiscus? And

1:25

did she like sex out,

1:26

guys? No. We're looking for a body. Right. Today

1:28

said it was a crime scene. He literally

1:31

saw half Laramie police standing up

1:33

in the

1:33

dorms. They had football programs

1:35

in their hand looking for guys. They were

1:37

just smashing up wherever we were. I

1:50

knew Jake Whiteman before he confessed to killing

1:52

Shelly. Back when I was

1:54

fifteen years old, his locker was next

1:57

to mine at Laramie High. I

1:59

remember him as a bean pull of a kid who

2:01

sometimes buttoned his polo shirts up to a

2:03

top button, quiet, gentle,

2:06

smart, a great basketball

2:08

player. He was so

2:10

trusted and so well thought of that he'd been

2:13

picked by classmates as a peer

2:14

counselor, a keeper of other secrets.

2:18

He

2:18

was also black, one of the few kids

2:20

in school. By Laramie Standards,

2:23

he had a famous father. Author

2:25

John Edgar Weidman taught at the university. He

2:27

was best known for writing a memoir about his brother.

2:30

Who had been convicted of murder. All

2:33

of us had watched Jake's dad talk about that on

2:35

sixty minutes. But

2:37

honestly, The thing that stuck with me most

2:39

about Jake was how he used to stuff his uneaten

2:41

lunches into his locker. It

2:44

smelled up the entire hallway. I

2:46

remember telling the principal on him. In

2:50

the summer of nineteen eighty six, the year

2:52

after Shelly was murdered. Jake did

2:54

something horrific that landed him in jail in

2:56

Flakes, South Arizona. That

2:59

August, during a traveling summer camp

3:01

trip for teenagers, he woke

3:03

up in the middle of the night grabbed a

3:05

hunting knife he had bought at a souvenir shop

3:07

in Yellowstone National Park and stabbed

3:10

his sleeping roommate Keane twice in

3:12

the chest. Jake then fled.

3:15

After a nationwide manhunt, Jake

3:17

eventually turned himself in and

3:19

confessed. He said the

3:21

murder was neither premeditated nor

3:23

provoked. He

3:24

only explained the stabbing as a quote, result

3:27

of a build up of a lot of different emotions. In

3:30

other words, Jay could articulate no

3:32

motive, No reason, which

3:35

made the murder particularly chilling. Jake

3:38

had been in jail for a year awaiting

3:41

trial in Arizona for killing Eric

3:43

when he asked to talk to the same local detective

3:45

he had first confessed

3:46

to. This is gonna be

3:48

a taped interview with Rick White when taking

3:50

place at the county jail. The date is

3:52

made twenty and eighty seven times twenty

3:54

two, thirty one hours. Staying

3:58

high, she said we're going

4:00

here tonight to

4:01

get one of the dogs about the

4:04

rear and the Barry Wiley.

4:08

Take ass to speak to the detective because he

4:10

wanted to confess to killing a second person.

4:13

Shelly

4:13

Wiley. Jake's

4:15

story was that he'd been in an affair with Shelly.

4:18

He

4:18

said she was about to reveal this to her boyfriend,

4:21

Alan Griffin. Scared

4:23

about how that would play

4:24

out. Jake said he went to her apartment.

4:27

When he got there, he got into an argument

4:29

with Shelly, and then he stabbed her

4:32

three times. He said he

4:34

then left and walked home, leaving

4:36

a decoy knife at the scene, throwing

4:38

the real murder weapon into a dumpster. Good.

4:41

What else happened to you? What

4:44

else happened before you left? Jake

4:46

said he knew what the detective was referring

4:48

to. To fire that was set in

4:50

Shelley's apartment. That

4:52

part, he said, wasn't

4:54

him? That that was nothing. I

4:57

did not set a fire. Jake

5:03

got almost everything in his confession wrong.

5:06

He mentioned a fireplace that wasn't in Shelley's

5:08

apartment. He said the violence

5:11

took place entirely inside. Throughout

5:13

this first interview, It seemed like Jake

5:15

didn't even really know where Shelly lived.

5:18

The whole thing, the decoy knife,

5:21

the affair when he was a cocky fifteen year

5:23

old with a significantly older Shelley.

5:26

It just didn't really add up. It

5:29

seemed to trouble the detective in Flagstaff

5:31

too. Enough that he asked

5:33

Jake why he was telling a mess. Whether

5:35

he would ever admit to a crime he didn't

5:37

commit. Would

5:38

you have any objection to talking

5:42

to the detective in Laramie

5:44

on me there? Has investigated this case,

5:47

and he had more facts in case in my

5:49

head. You know, I would the

5:51

firearms and telephone call

5:53

for you to talk to him if you want me to

5:55

do that. Mhmm. K.

5:57

I'm wondering if he's there right now.

6:07

Sure. We just give me a ten count trying to get

6:09

before we're going, and I don't think it's working too well.

6:11

Ready?

6:12

Uh-huh. Take then

6:14

talk to lieutenant Gary Poles, who

6:16

was still in charge of the investigation in Laramie.

6:19

Yes, Jacob? Yeah. My name is Gary Frost.

6:21

I'm lieutenant with the Army Police Department.

6:23

Okay. How are you

6:24

tonight? Pretty good. Okay. Well, that's actually

6:27

Jake repeated his story to lieutenant Paul's

6:29

with the same inaccuracies, the

6:31

same hard to bully details. In

6:34

Paul's voice, I could hear skepticism of

6:36

Jake's story. Paul's

6:38

told Jake that he needed to do more investigating

6:41

to figure out whether Jake was telling the truth

6:43

and whether charges would be filed. But

6:46

that didn't happen. Hours

6:48

after polls heard Jake's paper thin story,

6:51

Poles charged Jake with Shelley's murder.

7:03

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7:58

Laramie. I'm Margaret Lyons.

8:01

I'm a TV critic for The New York Times and a

8:03

writer for The Times newsletter called Watching.

8:05

To create this newsletter, my colleagues and I sit

8:07

through hundreds of movies and shows so we can help

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and browse all of our newsletters at m y

8:25

times dot com slash subscriber newsletters.

8:30

Jake Weidman's confession in nineteen eighty

8:32

seven didn't actually go anywhere. He

8:35

never got as far as entering a play. Evidence

8:37

contradicted his confession, put

8:40

the charges against him hung on the books for more

8:42

than three years. During

8:44

that whole time, The file basically

8:46

stalled out. Nobody did much

8:48

work on the Shelly Wiley case. I

8:51

had heard the outlines of all of this before,

8:54

I knew about Jake's confession and that

8:56

nothing ever happened with the

8:57

charges. By the way, it had

8:59

always bugged me. So I reached

9:01

out to Jake. This call will be recorded

9:04

and subject to monitoring at any time.

9:06

Thank you for using IC Solutions.

9:08

Thirty five years on, He is still

9:10

in an Arizona prison for killing his former

9:13

roommate, Eric Cain. He

9:15

may begin speaking now. Hey.

9:18

Hi. How are you? Okay. Good.

9:20

K. That's good. So

9:22

I wanted to start by taking

9:25

you back to where you were

9:27

at the you know, where you were in Laramie.

9:31

Did did you know Shelly at all or did

9:33

you know of her?

9:37

I could no. I just had

9:39

heard rumors when

9:41

when the crime occurred. It was the first time

9:44

I actually remember carrying

9:46

her name, and people

9:49

in the high school were talking about

9:51

the case. And talking about the fact that

9:53

she had been killed. And

9:56

that was my first encounter

9:58

with with her name. I

10:01

mean, it's just to

10:03

be quite honest, given it's a really,

10:05

really difficult and painful thing

10:08

to look back on. To

10:11

to get back in touch with. And, you

10:14

know, I was trying to do that this morning

10:16

in anticipation of our call.

10:19

Just kinda put myself back in that

10:21

time, and I was still dealing

10:23

with the mental illness

10:25

and the neurological disorder that I'd had.

10:28

Sometime was a kid. The, of

10:32

course, the crime that I committed

10:34

in in Arizona had

10:36

exacerbated everything, but there

10:38

was also a lot of shame and a lot

10:41

of guilt both from knowing

10:43

what I had done that I had taken life

10:46

of Vericaine and also some

10:48

things that had happened many, many years before.

10:51

And by that time in nineteen

10:54

eighty seven, over to over

10:56

a year after I'd been jailed,

10:58

I think I had attempted suicide.

11:00

I know I had attempted multiple times.

11:03

And I was just overwhelmingly

11:05

self destructive. And

11:07

I was looking for a way out

11:10

to to take my life. And

11:13

at that time after the first couple of suicide

11:16

attempts, they had put me in a cell

11:18

in the jail, which was right down in the booking

11:21

area. And was had

11:23

a great big window where they could easily

11:25

look in on me. So it was almost

11:27

like a permanent kind of

11:29

suicide watch. So

11:31

I knew that there

11:34

was no way I could get away with actually

11:36

killing myself. And

11:39

so I thought

11:41

about and, you know,

11:43

how would I could do? And I

11:45

remembered the showy why

11:47

we cried. I figured that to

11:50

that point that they probably hadn't

11:53

found a suspect yet because

11:55

they they didn't find one in the immediate

11:58

aftermath. And so

12:00

I I figured that the fact that

12:02

I had committed this crime in Arizona

12:05

would make me a credible

12:07

suspect. And I figured confessing

12:10

to this crime in Wyoming would be the

12:13

the cherry on top of the cake. That would

12:15

almost guarantee that I would

12:17

get the death penalty either in Wyoming or

12:19

in Arizona if I was then guilty

12:21

of two murders. And

12:25

that was gonna be my way out. So

12:28

it was essentially a

12:31

suicide attempt by proxy. And

12:34

so I had

12:36

convinced myself that

12:39

this was the only way there

12:41

was this weird

12:44

nervousness that I

12:46

wouldn't be believed. And so I was

12:49

I, you know, I when I was thinking about

12:51

what's sorry to tell, I

12:53

just I kind of tried

12:55

to make it details as possible. And

12:58

as I could sense that maybe

13:00

I had gotten some things wrong

13:03

just by kind of a skeptical tone of voice

13:05

on the part of detective

13:07

poles, I got more and more anxious

13:09

and more

13:09

and more desperate to kinda

13:12

convince him. No. No. This was me. This was

13:14

me -- Mhmm. -- and

13:16

just feeling, like, feeling

13:18

deflated, which which may

13:20

sound like a strange thing to

13:23

feel. At that time, but, like,

13:26

thinking to myself, this

13:28

isn't working. You know? He's not believing

13:31

me. He's trying to believe

13:33

me. He needs a suspect. I think

13:35

part of him wanted this to be true because

13:38

they they needed to to

13:40

close the case, but did I just there

13:43

was just not the credibility there that

13:45

that he needed to believe me. And

13:47

afterwards after the interview when I'm

13:49

back in my cell

13:52

thinking about it and reflecting on that I literally,

13:55

you know, started to cry. And

14:00

I fell into this kind of

14:02

temporary black hole where

14:04

I thought how am I gonna how

14:07

am I gonna escape myself? And

14:12

so he leaves and you think

14:15

I have failed. Right.

14:18

When do you find out that he's actually you

14:21

know, bought what you're selling? Not

14:28

until I

14:31

know I know it was my attorneys

14:33

who told me that I had actually been charged,

14:36

and I was like, okay. Whatever

14:39

he may not have believed, he

14:41

believed me enough to charge

14:44

me. I mean, I was immediately excited.

14:48

And I had every intention of as soon

14:50

as they took me up to

14:53

Wyoming for arraignment, I

14:55

was gonna plead guilty. Right then and

14:58

not even not even allow any

15:01

space for, you know,

15:03

a longer investigation, which might uncover

15:06

the fact that I didn't do it or,

15:08

you know, any kind of a trial or any kind

15:10

of an evidentiary hearing I

15:12

was gonna forestall that by

15:15

immediately pleading guilty. And

15:18

that that, of course, never happened. I never

15:20

got taken to Wyoming. Never got arraigned,

15:22

but that was my intention.

15:27

I feel awful. About

15:30

what I put Sally sent me through. And

15:35

I

15:41

I never took

15:44

the time or the opportunity to

15:46

apologize to them. And

15:50

for a while,

15:52

I was told not to by my

15:54

lawyers and my family for legal reasons

15:56

but that's

15:59

that's not an excuse. I

16:03

felt at different times and desire to

16:05

reach out to him. I

16:07

apologize, and I never did.

16:09

And that was purely selfish. And

16:11

I just I feel terrible

16:14

about about what I put

16:16

them through, both for those three

16:18

plus years, but also in

16:21

the years since by not giving

16:23

them at least the clarity of having a

16:26

letter Laramie, apologizing,

16:29

and explaining why I did what I

16:31

did.

16:58

Get immersed in the latest stories on

17:00

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17:25

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17:27

up for a free thirty day trial at audible

17:29

dot com slash Laramie.

17:32

Over a year of conversations, Jake

17:35

Weidman told me a lot, about

17:37

his angst and alienation in high school,

17:40

about his guilt over killing Eric Cain.

17:43

Court records told me more, Assorted

17:46

psychologists and psychiatrists had diagnosed

17:48

Jake with variety of conditions, schizotypical

17:52

personality disorder, borderline

17:54

personality disorder, atypical

17:57

conduct disorder, and

17:59

eventually temporal lobe syndrome.

18:02

There's no consensus. Regardless,

18:05

Jake was found competent to stand trial as

18:07

an adult in the murder of Eric Cain. After

18:10

initially wanting to die, Jake decided

18:13

to live. To avoid the

18:15

death penalty, he agreed to a plea

18:17

deal of life in prison with the possibility

18:20

of parole after twenty five years. But

18:23

as Jake became eligible for parole, Shelley's

18:26

murder and the doubt around it hung

18:28

over his hearings. Even

18:30

though the state of Wyoming said Jake was no

18:33

longer a viable suspect in Shelly's murder

18:35

and dropped the charges, The case had

18:37

never been solved. So therefore, maybe

18:40

he did do it. That was

18:42

the insinuation anyway. In

18:45

twenty sixteen, Jake had his seventh

18:47

parole

18:48

hearing. He was released

18:50

on house arrest with an ankle bracelet.

18:53

One of the conditions for his release was meeting

18:55

with a specific psychologist. Although

18:58

Jake traded emails and left voicemail messages

19:01

for the therapist, The two didn't

19:03

meet. So nine months after

19:05

being released, Jake was arrested

19:07

for failing to make that appointment. He's

19:10

been back in prison ever since. Jake

19:13

has had a lot of time to process what he's

19:15

done and the effect it's had on other

19:17

people He was forthcoming about

19:19

it in our conversations, even when

19:21

I could tell it was hard for him. But

19:24

in all of our

19:24

talks, There was one place

19:26

Jake just wouldn't go. The

19:29

only thing I really don't

19:31

wanna talk about and and,

19:34

you

19:34

know, that I would hope you'd avoid asking

19:36

me about what is the whole Angela situation?

19:40

The whole Angelo situation. When

19:43

Jake made his false confession in nineteen

19:45

eighty seven, he wasn't just implicating

19:47

himself Jake's initial

19:49

strategy was claiming responsibility for

19:52

killing Shelly, while professing

19:54

ignorance about who set the fire afterward.

19:57

That didn't work for lieutenant Pols. Pols

20:00

wanted a name. So after

20:02

some prodding, Jake gave him one

20:05

Angela Garcia. Takes

20:08

said that Angela was responsible for the

20:10

fire, a co conspirator in

20:12

Shelly's murder. The

20:15

one thing Jake would tell me about this

20:17

is that he didn't know Angelo. He

20:20

just heard his name around town as a bad kid.

20:23

Poles knew Angelo well for

20:26

lot of the same reasons. Angelo

20:28

was interviewed by the police before. In

20:31

the first week of the investigation, He

20:34

was a usual suspect in town, and

20:36

he hung around with Larry Montes. He

20:38

was actually at that party. The

20:40

one where Larry stole their friend Eddie's car

20:43

and disappeared. In

20:45

that first recorded interview, Angelo

20:47

had an alibi. He sounded

20:49

cooperative talking about how

20:51

Larry had gone missing. But

20:54

two years later, within hours of

20:56

Jake's

20:56

confession, and with no other

20:58

evidence, polls brought Angelo

21:01

in again.

21:02

What I desire to do, Angelo has

21:04

questioned you in regard to the homicide of

21:06

Shelley Wiley And

21:09

before I ask you any questions, this

21:11

is a critical matter. I'm going

21:14

to advise you that your constitutional rights.

21:16

Okay?

21:20

Moving the clock is Jacob. I

21:23

was hoping that you can help us with that a little

21:25

bit. Okay. Jacob, I don't know, Jacob. I'm

21:28

fucking pissed

21:28

that. Okay. It's keep cool. You know, one of them good

21:31

terms. Right? I was a little very serious charge. We

21:33

realized that. No

21:34

shit. And I don't want me fucking blame you

21:36

to fucking

21:36

shit. Okay. Letting that. Let's let's

21:38

talk about it. You're willing to talk with it? I

21:40

ain't gonna say how can jail for it because I

21:42

didn't do the fucking shit. Alright?

21:46

You guys aren't even fucking telling me too.

21:48

I'm trying to, but I'm not gonna yell back at you.

21:50

Let's see what things man. I didn't fucking

21:53

do. Don't understand me wrong. You're under

21:55

the rest of this time. I am a black man.

21:57

Okay? Alright. Okay. Angela,

22:01

are you acquainted with Shelley Wallen? I

22:04

never really need a check. Do you know the neighbor?

22:07

Besides

22:08

side of the thing you Ari her sister.

22:11

Uh-huh. What was your relation to you? I need

22:13

that. Lori and her sister, but

22:15

5 got Arians spoke to you check or not.

22:21

It's for as much as Jacob where fuck

22:23

Jacob

22:23

is. I don't even know what fuck the pounders either.

22:27

Jacob Whiteman was a a resident of Laramie.

22:30

He's what we call a a Milato is

22:32

a kind of a half white black kid.

22:35

No. That is currently

22:38

in Arizona right now.

22:39

He says you torched the place at Angela. You

22:42

were with him. Yes.

22:44

Sure.

22:46

So I wasn't sure why would he be saying that?

22:48

I

22:48

don't know. Yeah. You don't even know me.

22:51

He he says he knows you. I

22:53

talked to him at midnight this morning and

22:57

interviewed the man for two and a half hours, and he

22:59

says, you were with him. You're

23:03

did you hear better shakies? You know what shakies

23:05

used to be? Yeah. Bella

23:07

building is still urban. It's it's a what the

23:09

Laramie name? Jacob Weidman

23:12

told me that you picked him up there that

23:14

night at approximately ten thirty PM.

23:18

Two parking. He fluid advised

23:20

me that you made arrangements

23:22

with him at the park at

23:24

about eleven AM that day to

23:27

do that, to pick him up. The

23:29

Steve's fucking cranking. I don't know where

23:31

he's coming with the information, Angelo, but that's

23:33

exactly what he told me. I

23:36

think, you know, I you realize that I'm being upfront

23:38

with

23:38

you, and I'm telling you exactly what

23:40

the information is that we know.

23:43

Hey, I ain't got enough time now. Straight.

23:45

I did all the information I had.

23:48

I'm trying to straight down my shit here. You

23:50

guys were trying to Yeah. We're not

23:52

trying to do anything to you. We're just fanning it

23:54

to the fracs. Okay? And right now,

23:56

we've got information that this person told

23:58

us that you're involved in the murder and the fire.

24:01

That kills Charlie Riley. That's

24:03

a capital offense. You don't realize it? This is death

24:06

penalty offense. Yes, sir. That

24:08

is exactly right. They haven't executed

24:10

anybody in the state of Wyoming for many

24:11

years, but there's people on death row awaiting

24:14

execution. And what

24:16

happens

24:16

if like,

24:19

say, somebody's innocent and they

24:21

put him away for so many years

24:23

and

24:23

they come back out and get evidence and shit.

24:27

We you know, if I have if I have

24:29

information pertaining to that, I don't wanna put an

24:31

innocent person in

24:32

jail. That's right. I have a duty

24:34

to do that, you know, to protect you

24:36

as well as anybody else. I didn't go to jail

24:38

because some some some says it was me.

24:40

Well, that's exactly what has been said,

24:42

Angelo. Anything. Do you know

24:44

who kills Shelley White? I sure don't. We'll

24:46

find you that common time right now. Well, that's it.

24:48

told you we've had lots of sources come in and tell

24:50

us that you're possible forward killing Shelly

24:52

White. Is there any truth to that?

24:55

It's completely false, but I

24:59

did not touch to the chick. I didn't

25:01

even know the chick. Why should I kill the chick?

25:03

Oh, I made it

25:04

crazy, but I'm not insane now. Well,

25:07

I'm

25:07

not sure if anyone here is gonna make me

25:09

go insane. Wow. I'm serious.

25:13

Can he help us out about? Why would this Jacobweb

25:15

gonna be telling you us and telling me specifically

25:18

that you set that house on

25:19

fire? I don't know, sir. Should

25:22

find you find you why this guy is trying

25:24

to set me up by probably

25:26

time, but I don't know why. Okay.

25:29

I'll terminate the interview at 405

25:31

PM.

25:36

After lieutenant Pols interrogated him.

25:38

Angela was actually briefly charged with

25:40

arson and murder. I

25:43

didn't know Angelo Garcia back when I lived

25:45

in Laramie, but I knew of him.

25:48

He was a few years older than me, but it dropped

25:50

out of school in junior high. Angela

25:52

was known mostly for smoking weed,

25:54

getting in fights, throwing parties,

25:57

and dating younger girls. He

25:59

had a hair trigger temper in long running

26:01

beef with law enforcement. One

26:03

example, After police brought

26:05

him into jail in a minor violation few

26:07

months before this interview, Angelo

26:09

had slammed his head against the wall breaking

26:12

the sheet rock. Rather

26:14

than get him help, authorities charged him

26:16

with a crime, destroying

26:18

property. Can

26:24

we get you some bad coffee or some water?

26:26

Water or something? Okay. Cool. Angela

26:29

met me at a basement Airbnb in

26:31

Laramie. He was short and

26:33

wiry with a grain flat top and a

26:35

goatee. He

26:36

dressed casual. She's in a black

26:38

sweatshirt with white prayer hands on it.

26:41

He seemed guarded at first, but open to

26:44

talking. I introduced

26:46

him to my dog Lucy.

26:47

She was clearly excited to see him up.

26:49

What's going on with?

26:54

Yeah. She's a sweetheart. From

26:56

the police files, a new Angelo

26:58

had nothing to do with Shelley's murder. He

27:01

was alibi from the very start, but

27:04

he was arrested anyway. His name

27:06

splashed all over the front page of the local

27:08

paper. In a case

27:10

where there had been three arrests made in thirty seven

27:12

years, Angelo stood out to me

27:14

as the most

27:15

arbitrary, the most avoidable,

27:17

And so what is this like? You're, like,

27:19

being accused of this thing that you, like,

27:21

have no idea what they're talking

27:23

about? What is this like for you?

27:28

I mean, at first, I mean, it's

27:30

it's like, wherever

27:32

I'll go down, you know, you

27:34

need question me no problem, you know.

27:36

But, you know, when they started telling

27:38

me all of this stuff that we're gonna give you the debt

27:40

panel to do this and that, and You

27:43

start saying, whoa. I mean,

27:46

I didn't do this. You know? I

27:48

never had nothing to do with that. I wasn't there.

27:51

Nothing. You know? So

27:54

Do

27:54

you remember where you were that night? Oh,

27:56

yeah. We're drinking.

27:59

Plain quarters. Yeah. I

28:01

was a little drunk and I

28:03

fell asleep and they woke me up.

28:07

They said Laramie the latest car. We need

28:09

to go look for him. So we went, driving

28:11

around, looking for Larry, gonna find

28:13

him anywhere, get

28:16

back to the house that we're partying

28:18

at. And Larry

28:21

was hiding my uncle's car. Why

28:23

he was hiding, I don't know, because, you know, he

28:25

brought the car back. Why

28:28

he had a change of clothes. I don't know.

28:31

Why didn't have any glasses on? I don't know.

28:34

So you know, that always

28:36

made me think, what's

28:40

going

28:40

on? But I

28:42

don't know.

28:44

He had something to do with his?

28:47

I don't know. You know, it it'll be

28:49

like me accusing him like they did

28:51

to me but I always

28:53

thought

28:53

that. I don't know.

28:56

I

28:57

looked at them. I looked for answers. I

29:00

couldn't find any. You know, I

29:02

I lived with Montez for a while behind him and where

29:04

he. You know, he was always my friend.

29:07

But, you know, I that's it's I

29:09

can't cue somebody because I know

29:12

the hurt that it loves you, you

29:14

know. Do

29:16

you ever remember even meeting Jake

29:18

what Feidman? don't

29:22

even I don't even think I met him. I don't even

29:24

think I know this kid. I You know what I mean?

29:26

It's like, it's crazy. I

29:29

don't even know. So I know,

29:31

you know, I his brother wasn't

29:33

my grade. No. I knew him when he played basketball,

29:36

but I don't even remember which

29:38

one was which. So Yeah. You

29:40

know what just don't

29:42

know the kid. Why

29:45

do you think he would have named you like this?

29:47

I have no idea. I have no idea.

29:51

Because Did he even do it?

29:53

No.

29:54

I don't know. You know? No.

29:57

I mean, like, he's been very much

29:59

ruled out. And he

30:01

himself has said that, like,

30:03

he was lying and he

30:05

just was saying this because he wanted to die.

30:08

You know, because he'd already been arrested on

30:10

this murder charge

30:12

in Arizona because he had killed a kid down

30:14

there. He definitely did that. And

30:16

that, like, he just sort of made this decision

30:19

to confess to this case. And,

30:22

you know, I can't seem to get an answer

30:24

out of him because I'm talking to him about,

30:26

like, why did you finger this

30:29

guy? Right. What he said

30:31

was that he just did

30:33

heard your name around as being, like,

30:35

a bad kid. You know? You

30:37

know?

30:39

I was good fighter back in the day. You know?

30:42

You know, that's just where we grew up on the website.

30:44

Everybody always wants to see who was the

30:46

baddest and whatever. And so all

30:49

is a good fighter. So what? You know?

30:51

Was, like, hard to deal with anything. You

30:53

know? Do you remember when you

30:55

found out about the guy being arrested,

30:57

like, five years ago? Oh,

31:00

man. My my

31:02

cousin Rita, and

31:05

she

31:06

sent me a message. On

31:08

my phone and she goes, look

31:10

at letting me live.

31:13

Okay. We're just talking about. That's why I look

31:15

on there. And,

31:18

you know, they had lamb, whatever, you

31:20

know. Okay. So

31:23

I started crying with so much

31:25

happiness. He

31:28

finally got him. So I

31:33

was happy to stay in my life.

31:46

Told my family well, you know what? It was

31:48

one of their own, you

31:51

know, one of their own

31:56

and just and just made me so

31:58

happy that they finally caught somebody. You

32:01

know? I called

32:03

my mom up. Right

32:05

away. They caught they caught

32:07

the murder of her mom.

32:15

What did she say? She didn't

32:17

know what's it.

32:21

Do you think she had believed you didn't do it before?

32:24

Probably. don't know. She never talked

32:26

to you never talked to her about that.

32:33

She knows you're upset and needs to give you

32:35

some comfort. That's good.

32:40

Not very many people know how to do that.

32:42

Well, good

32:49

job.

33:02

Two days after Angela was charged with murder

33:04

and arson, Jake talked to a lieutenant

33:06

pulls again.

33:08

After learning about the charges against Angelo,

33:10

Jake told polls that Angelo wasn't involved.

33:14

It

33:14

took another couple of days for the charges against

33:16

Angelo to be dropped. He spent

33:18

the whole time in jail. For

33:21

a few years after, Angelo had a

33:23

rough go of it. He piled

33:25

up more criminal charges. Never quite

33:27

got his feet on the ground, did work

33:29

a day jobs in construction or restaurants mostly.

33:33

But eventually, he got his life together, got

33:36

married, had eight kids, found

33:38

god. After

33:42

the charges were eventually dropped against

33:44

Jake, the investigation into

33:46

who killed Shelly Wiley was back at square

33:48

one. By this point,

33:51

polls was leaving case behind him.

33:53

He had just been elected sheriff. Poll

33:56

for polls was his campaign slogan. The

33:59

case passed to another detective in nineteen ninety

34:02

one. I started reading

34:04

through everything that the new detective did next.

34:07

I can see that he pursued various theories over

34:09

the next dozen or so years. He

34:12

looked at Jake again. He

34:14

looked particularly hard at a long haul

34:16

trucker who confessed to seventy rapes.

34:18

And then a man who had killed and raped a coworker's

34:20

roommate and it town about three hundred miles from

34:23

Laramie. No theory panned

34:25

out. Looking through the case file,

34:27

it seemed like the new detective wasn't dedicating

34:30

much time to the case. He

34:32

wasn't doing fresh interviews. He

34:34

didn't appear to be revisiting what the police

34:36

may have missed. The

34:38

investigation started to resemble more of

34:40

a training exercise than an open case.

34:43

A couple of boxes of files handed over

34:45

to a succession of new detectives with a

34:47

shrug. Sure. Give it a

34:49

spin. Everyone else has. It

34:53

took almost thirty years for another arrest to

34:55

be made in the case. For another

34:57

new detective to take a closer look at the

34:59

file and see something the others hadn't, Almost

35:03

thirty years to arrive back at the crime scene

35:05

and reconsider the question, what

35:07

about Fred Lam?