0:13

Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast

0:16

, where we give voice to the stories , struggles

0:18

and successes of Black

0:21

women and non-binary folks with doctoral degrees

0:23

. I'm your host , dr John McCollough

0:25

, and joining us today is Dr Jasmine

0:27

C Jackson , an assistant

0:29

professor at Texas Christian University

0:32

, who earned her PhD in

0:34

political science from Purdue University

0:37

. She's all about American politics

0:39

, political behavior , women and

0:41

Black politics . Her research

0:44

tackles big questions about race

0:46

knowledge and politics in America

0:49

and looks into how we measure

0:51

political knowledge and how it affects the

0:53

gap between Black and White folks

0:55

in politics . Dr Jackson

0:57

has won major awards like the Purdue

0:59

Liberal Arts Distinguished Dissertation

1:02

and the George Washington Carver

1:04

Fellowship , and she's got the inside

1:06

scoop on what's cooking in American politics

1:08

today , which is a mess . So

1:10

I'm really interested to

1:13

get your insight . Let's jump right in

1:15

and welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast

1:17

, dr Jasmine C Jackson .

1:22

Yeah , so I am Dr

1:24

Jasmine C Jackson . I am I don't know

1:26

. We just say I'm from the South because

1:28

I have lived in various Southern states . I've

1:31

grown up in various Southern states . I'm

1:34

not a military rat . My dad's job just

1:36

kind of dragged us all over the place . So

1:38

I know I'm just , like I said , say , the South . When

1:41

I am not stressed out about American politics

1:43

, I enjoy cooking

1:46

, shopping , reading

1:49

for leisure not research and

1:52

sleeping that's a favorite pastime

1:54

, of course , when I was an undergrad

1:56

I actually that's when I began

1:58

my I

2:01

began to get into the field of political science . I first

2:03

wanted to be a lawyer , I wanted to do

2:05

corporate law , and

2:07

in my first semester at Jackson

2:09

State University I had

2:12

the opportunity of working with

2:14

a political science professor . He

2:16

took over my one

2:18

of my honors courses and he was

2:20

doing this research about colorism

2:24

and hair texture and how

2:26

it affects the public's

2:28

perception of black political candidates . And

2:31

he was like I am coming up with this

2:33

finding and I don't understand it

2:35

. I don't even know how we got to talking about it , but I don't understand

2:37

it . It's not making sense to me . And so

2:39

I

2:41

helped him interpret his finding , or

2:44

helped him get like you know , kind of

2:46

have a new age kind of spin on

2:48

his finding . And he was like

2:50

, all right , you're in , you're on the research

2:52

team . And I was like , wait a second , what are you talking

2:55

about ? What research ? What

2:57

is the research team ? What is political

2:59

science research involved , and

3:02

it's been I'm going

3:04

to go get a PhD and be a professor ever since that

3:06

is such a good story , wow

3:09

.

3:09

Okay , so you do this project

3:11

with this professor and

3:13

then all of a sudden , like

3:16

when did it click for you that you

3:18

wanted to do what he does and be

3:20

a professor ? And then , once you decided

3:22

to be a professor , what were some of the steps that you took

3:24

to prepare yourself to be a strong

3:26

applicant for grad school

3:29

?

3:29

Okay . So , trying to put

3:31

this in a seamless stream

3:33

of thought , really

3:36

so I had no idea . I

3:38

am a first-year PhD , so

3:40

I had no idea what it entailed

3:43

of getting a PhD and what it meant

3:45

to get a PhD . And so when

3:47

I was exposed to political science research

3:49

especially research on colorism

3:52

and hair texture , you know and

3:54

knowing that that was a field in political science

3:56

that I could then go in and study , right , I was

3:59

going to go . I actually

4:01

met my PhD advisor

4:03

my first semester in undergrad at Jackson State

4:06

. She barely remembers the

4:08

interaction , but she was invited to a talk

4:10

at Jackson State and I was

4:12

there . It was a home , it was homecoming , friday

4:14

8am , it was very few

4:16

of us there . So

4:19

once I you know her

4:22

work , coupled with the work of my undergrad

4:24

advisor , and talking

4:27

to him and him really pushing me to

4:29

apply to different research opportunities

4:32

, I was like I want to do

4:34

this . I think this is something I want to do

4:36

Now , as far as you

4:39

know , realizing I wanted to be a professor . I come

4:41

from a long line of educators , a

4:43

long line of educators . I am

4:47

a fourth generation Jackson State

4:49

alumni , and so

4:51

my grandfather went to Jackson State when he was 16

4:53

years old and left Jackson State and

4:56

went to Missouri to help integrate

4:59

the schools in a small

5:01

town in Missouri , Charleston , missouri and

5:03

so education was always important

5:06

, it was always non-negotiable in

5:08

my family and our household . So

5:10

it wasn't a matter of preparation

5:12

, I was already in

5:14

it . So it wasn't , you know , it was just

5:17

a matter of , like I said

5:19

, connecting the dots and recognizing that

5:21

this is a path that was always

5:23

open to me , even if I didn't know it . You

5:25

know , I was always . I'm the oldest , I'm

5:27

the oldest sibling , so I

5:29

am third parent , I am the teacher of

5:31

life . Lessons that you know , mom and dad

5:33

feel like will come , will be

5:36

better given by you , the

5:38

third parent , the oldest . So teaching

5:40

came naturally , and

5:43

so it really was . Just in regards to preparing

5:45

for to be a strong applicant , it

5:48

was really just getting the , getting

5:50

more research experience and carving

5:52

out my own research

5:54

question and other

5:56

, because , other than that , like I said , the GPA

5:59

was there , the drive

6:01

was there , the you know understanding

6:03

, the education was important . All of that was already

6:05

there . So it's just a matter of what

6:07

do I want to study ? Do

6:09

I want to continue down this path of

6:11

Black politics , identity politics , candid

6:14

perception , that sort of thing or

6:17

is there something else that I'm interested in ?

6:20

So and so what led you to ? I'm

6:23

curious one , because we're

6:25

in the process right now . We're working very closely with doctoral

6:28

applicants and so something that's been coming up

6:30

for people in our cohort

6:32

this programming is some people like

6:34

will study something in undergrad or

6:36

their master's program , but like want to go

6:39

and they have a completely different

6:41

research idea for their PhD . So

6:44

I'm curious , like what were some of , what was your

6:46

thought process , as you were , you know , looking

6:48

at programs and thinking about you

6:50

know , what do I want to study ? Do I want to continue along

6:52

the same line of research I've been doing , or do I

6:54

want to explore some different questions

6:56

? Were there different questions for you then ? And

6:59

then what did you ultimately end up doing your

7:01

dissertation ?

7:01

on Right . So Well

7:06

one . They never

7:08

made me feel like I had to pick in

7:10

regards to what I wanted to study

7:13

, but

7:15

I did so I still , even

7:18

though I haven't done it in a while , I still

7:20

do work in regards to , like

7:22

, perception of black

7:24

folks . You know , the politicization of

7:26

the black body and

7:28

the longstanding history of the politicization

7:30

of our body . It's work that I'm getting back into but

7:33

I was never pushed to pick

7:35

what it was . That kind of

7:38

at least led me , as I was applying

7:40

down the road of more

7:42

so political knowledge and

7:44

political socialization was I

7:47

had the language to explain

7:50

that in a way that was acceptable

7:52

to political scientists , and I

7:54

did not have the language to

7:56

explain the

7:59

more so of . Oh , I studied , you know , skin color

8:01

and hair and because to me that's , you

8:03

know , layman's terms , that's what it is and they're

8:06

like , oh , okay , and

8:08

you know , because I saw , I had

8:10

the wonderful privilege of being

8:12

a part of the Ralph Bunch summer Institute

8:14

at Duke University under the direction

8:17

of Dr Paul McClain , and

8:19

from there we are . It is for black

8:22

and brown folks

8:24

who aspire to have PhDs in political science

8:26

. We are , you know , it's like a six

8:28

to eight week boot camp , essentially of

8:30

like mini grad school . You go to class

8:33

and you create an original research project

8:35

. There I was exposed to research about

8:37

political knowledge and the overall consensus

8:39

was black people don't know anything about politics

8:42

, particularly black women

8:44

being at the bottom of the totem pole . And I said

8:46

this is absolutely horseshit . I

8:48

don't believe any of this . And

8:50

so now I found my thing , because something is

8:52

wrong here . And when I looked

8:54

and I went to go look into the phenomenon

8:57

that I knew was black political knowledge or what

8:59

black people knew about politics , there was

9:01

nothing and I was like , okay , so this is my thing

9:03

, because apparently no one else is studying

9:05

this and you're always told oh

9:08

, you're not the first person to study , I am

9:10

, I'm one of the first , I am one of the first people

9:12

in this lane . It is me and one other person

9:14

in this lane . We know each other , we

9:17

are both . We both went to the Ralph Bunch

9:19

summer Institute and we're

9:22

different years , shockingly , where we're not in the

9:24

same cohort . So

9:26

because I had the language to

9:28

explain that and that seemed more

9:31

acceptable , that

9:33

seemed more acceptable at the time , especially

9:35

as I was getting prepared to

9:37

go into grad school , being able to meet

9:40

more academics , more

9:42

PhDs in political science . That

9:45

got the reaction of , oh wow , that's such

9:47

a great question , yes , we need to know these things

9:49

, whereas of you know saying that I want to study

9:51

, study , study skin color and

9:53

hair , and rather than

9:55

say there were ways to package that I just didn't

9:58

have the academic language

10:00

at 21

10:03

, 20 , to say that

10:05

, right , so that's really what it was . That's what kind

10:07

of pushed me more so in that direction . Ultimately

10:10

, when I got to Purdue and

10:12

it was time for me to choose my dissertation topic , I

10:14

actually did almost switch back

10:16

to media

10:19

and candid perception . That's

10:22

what my comprehensive paper was on was

10:24

on the bias

10:26

media coverage of black women political candidates

10:28

, especially opposed to their white

10:30

male counterparts if they're running against a white man

10:32

. So I was like oh

10:34

well , you know , this is back to my roots , let's

10:37

do this . And my dissertation advisor

10:39

was like mm-mm , I feel like you're

10:41

settling . I feel like you're marrying

10:44

the safe man and not the man you love . She's

10:47

like . So you , she was like I'm going to tell you as a what

10:49

is this analogy ? The analogy

10:51

was . The analogy was she was like I feel like you're

10:53

trying to marry the man and everybody wants you to marry . But

10:55

you got somebody you really love but

10:57

you're scared to marry him . I love that .

11:01

I love that your

11:03

advisor like put it that

11:05

way .

11:06

She is my academic mama . That's what . That's

11:08

how we describe our relationship . She is my

11:10

academic mama and my academic mama she's

11:12

as your academic mama . I'm going to tell you to go love

11:14

that man that you really love , not

11:16

the one we all want you to love , because

11:18

she does . She

11:21

does , you know , candid perception . She

11:23

does identity politics . You know

11:25

black folks , hair bodies

11:27

, like that . She's like as my student , that makes

11:30

sense . She was like I can . She's like , of

11:32

course , nobody is going to push

11:34

back on you know you coming

11:37

out as my student with this particular topic

11:39

. She was like but since the day that I

11:41

recall meeting you , which was that she was

11:43

also arrived at a bunch of some institute scholar , she

11:46

was like you have only talked about political

11:48

knowledge . That has been the thing . She

11:50

was like yes , I know you studied these other things because

11:52

you work with me . She's like but the

11:54

your question , the question that you are most passionate

11:56

about right now , is black

11:58

folks knowledge , black folks , political knowledge

12:01

. She's like so I'm going to push you to do that . And

12:04

I was like okay , you're right , let's go do it

12:06

.

12:06

Yes , I absolutely

12:09

love that . I'm going to go out on a

12:11

limb and assume

12:13

that your mentor was a black woman

12:15

. Is that a safe ?

12:17

decision yes .

12:18

Fantastic . Can you talk a little

12:20

bit more about the joys

12:23

and the privileges and , as well

12:25

, if there are any nuances

12:28

that you want to share about having a

12:30

black woman as your primary

12:33

advisor as you're going through a doctoral program

12:35

?

12:36

It is . It was a blessing , it was an absolute blessing

12:38

and it

12:41

, it said , a joy , a privilege . I

12:44

think the nuance is on

12:47

the other side . Or being , you know , a

12:49

PhD student , you don't understand

12:52

the mental gymnastics

12:55

or the the low that is on

12:57

black women , faculty members , and

13:00

so that may cause

13:03

you to be critical at times

13:05

, but you can't , because

13:07

when you get to get to their

13:09

you know particular point , you're like , wow

13:12

, this is all of the things that my

13:14

advisor was dealing with , while

13:16

also putting out my fires , wiping

13:18

away my tears , and

13:20

her world was also on fire , right ? So

13:23

, um , I think that's the nuance . The nuance

13:25

is understanding that the academy

13:28

did not love us both , you

13:30

know like the academy was not made for both

13:32

of us , and that that

13:34

created that

13:37

created unique circumstances that I

13:39

was not privy to at the time . You know , probably

13:42

still I'm still I'm not tenured

13:44

yet , so probably still not privy to some

13:46

some of those you know hurdles

13:48

. But to

13:50

just be gracious , to be gracious

13:52

to yourself and to your advisor

13:54

, because y'all both going through it , whether you know it or not , you're

13:57

both going through it .

13:58

Yeah , I am so glad

14:00

that you shared that perspective

14:02

, because I didn't have

14:04

that experience . Um always yearn

14:07

for that experience , but didn't really

14:09

think about the , the

14:11

nuance that you mentioned . You know , if just

14:13

the awareness , or rather the lack of awareness

14:16

, of the strain that you're

14:18

if you end up having an advisor who's any

14:20

kind of marginalized , historically

14:22

underrepresented- person in the academy , like

14:25

when they take a little bit longer to get back

14:27

to you , like it's cause

14:30

, like there are , as you said , like there are , they

14:32

are really dealing with some things , um

14:34

, and you're so right , like we don't really know that until

14:37

we're them and we're on the other

14:39

side and we're now the ones you know having

14:41

students . Um , I'll share a really personal

14:44

story . So I , a student

14:46

, asked me for a letter of recommendation recently

14:48

and I did not submit it

14:50

on time and I felt

14:53

terrible . Okay

14:56

, but as a

14:58

person of color , in an apartment where I'm

15:00

the only one who looks like me , 15

15:03

students also asked me to submit letters

15:05

of recommendation for them . this semester

15:07

, and I know for a fact my

15:09

white male colleagues do not have 15

15:11

students asking them to write them letters to get into

15:13

med school and law school and whatnot . So

15:17

yes , I think that's

15:19

both reaffirming to hear , I think for current

15:21

doctoral students , but I also needed to hear that for myself .

15:24

I have to tell myself that too . So

15:27

I am the only person in my department

15:29

that looks like me and I

15:32

had a . There was a student who attended our institution

15:35

and she's now trying to figure out whether or not she wants

15:37

to have a PhD in . We

15:40

wanted to start meeting regularly and I completely

15:42

dropped the ball twice on

15:44

meeting , like I had to shift things around and

15:47

I felt absolutely terrible and

15:51

I think that me especially being

15:54

absent twice negatively

15:57

affected our relationship . But I had to give myself

15:59

grace because , like one of those times

16:01

I was having a maintenance emergency in my apartment

16:03

, like I forgot everything

16:05

because the freaking smoke alone

16:07

wouldn't stop and I know it seemed small but I couldn't

16:09

sleep . I didn't sleep all night Like I was a zombie

16:12

. You know I was a zombie the whole day and so

16:14

I . You know you

16:16

do your best , but you have to recognize that you have

16:18

a different workload and you

16:21

know you have to forgive yourself

16:23

and be gracious and I have tried to

16:25

, you know , definitely reach

16:28

out to that student , you know , on different occasions

16:30

and apologize , but

16:32

after a while I was just like , okay , well , you

16:35

know , maybe we aren't just a match because , like I would

16:37

, the same way they always talk

16:39

about fit . Fit goes both ways . I do

16:41

need somebody that's going to understand like I

16:43

can be a little spacey at times , or or

16:45

I do have a and not spacey

16:47

but preoccupied , you know I could

16:49

be . Cause life , life's

16:51

all the time we do not have

16:54

the privileges of our colleagues . Nah

16:57

, I tell people , it's just me . I

16:59

am a , I am the head of my household . There's

17:02

when I go home , there's no one there . So

17:04

I am , I am the maid , I am the cook

17:06

, I am , I am all . I am the exterminator

17:08

, I am all the things . And then I have

17:10

to come in here and be all the things to

17:13

my students , right ? So

17:15

somebody ought to give me some grace . If it ain't

17:17

you , it's going to be me .

17:19

Yes , oh no , that's such an important reminder

17:21

. But you're right , Like I think , when we're especially

17:24

, the younger that we are , it sounds like when . I both

17:26

went to grad school , kind of straight out of college

17:28

we . I don't think I ever saw

17:30

my advisors as like real people

17:32

. Right it's humans , right it's

17:34

humans and I do think I'm hoping

17:37

that now , as faculty

17:39

members are being a little bit more outspoken about

17:42

the things that they experienced , and just social media

17:44

makes it easier for us to access it for people's perspectives

17:46

. Hopefully , current graduate students

17:49

at least those in the cohort systems community have

17:51

a clear understanding of the

17:53

fact that many faculty

17:55

not all of them , but many faculty are really just trying

17:57

their best and , though they may drop

18:00

the ball , it's not because they don't like you or

18:02

they don't respect your work . It's just like

18:04

we really legitimately have

18:06

many , many things going on , including

18:09

like people in our department who like don't

18:11

want us there and just make our lives a

18:13

living hell .

18:16

And I do think those students who

18:18

so , having gone to

18:20

an HBCU and now I'm currently at a PWI

18:23

, I do reckon , I think my

18:25

students of color

18:27

are a little bit more gracious because

18:29

of the fact that the institution is also placing

18:31

the same invisible

18:34

labor on them due

18:36

to DEI efforts , and

18:38

so they can be a little bit more gracious because

18:41

they feel it as well and

18:44

they understand what it's like and

18:47

we're able to help each other , or I'm

18:50

able to at least say no , they got me too . I

18:52

too have this invisible labor

18:54

. I too am overworked and

18:57

tired . We need a break . So

19:00

I think that that's a

19:02

and I don't know , like I said , I'm not sure

19:04

if it's just something that I kind of missed when

19:06

I went to an HBCU , because you know the

19:09

DE , I mean we are

19:11

the DEI HBCUs I mean the

19:13

whole campus , right . So it wasn't any

19:15

extra labor put on us , not

19:18

any that you didn't sign up for , right ? So

19:20

I do think that students

19:23

of color at a PWI do have

19:25

that experience a lot earlier

19:27

.

19:28

Yeah , absolutely . So I wanna know

19:30

a little bit more about your experience

19:32

with the rest of your cohort . What

19:34

was that like ? Did you have a big cohort , a small

19:36

one ? Did you kind of get along with them , or people

19:38

kind of doing their own thing ? Because

19:41

, your mentorship is also really critical

19:43

to the doctoral journey , so

19:45

we'd like to just find out about both your relationship with

19:47

your advisor as well as with

19:50

your peers and colleagues .

19:51

So my cohort , if I recall

19:53

it , might have been

19:56

eight of us , two

19:59

women of color and

20:02

then the rest not

20:04

. But

20:06

I'm trying to think five women

20:08

, five women , okay

20:13

, so I'm like there was nine of us , nine and a half , because we

20:15

had someone come in in the

20:17

spring we had . So one of

20:19

my cohort mates had a partner and

20:21

then he decided that he applied

20:24

to the program , but he got in in the

20:26

spring , so technically he is like

20:28

adjacent to our cohort , so

20:31

we had about nine and a half . So

20:33

it was five

20:36

women , four men . So

20:39

the other woman of color she

20:41

was from Puerto Rico we got along , all of us

20:43

got along . Actually , our first year we were able

20:45

to study together . We would go

20:47

and hang out sometimes . We worked together . So

20:50

we didn't necessarily have that problem of competition

20:53

per se , which was

20:55

good , and I think part of that was some

20:57

of us being authentic and

20:59

being ourselves and being genuine and being like I

21:02

don't know what I'm doing . I will never

21:04

have no idea what

21:06

is going on . I remember I used to

21:08

be in seminar and I'm like

21:11

well , I know that all y'all are talking , are trying

21:13

to talk about what this is about , but

21:15

I'm gonna tell you why I can't even grasp what

21:17

this is about , because why

21:19

in the world do I need

21:21

a key to read through all these acronyms

21:24

that this man just put in his paper ? I

21:26

don't know what this man is talking about , because

21:29

this is alphabet soup . I've never seen so

21:31

many acronyms in one place before , and

21:34

I went to an HBCU . We love acronym . So

21:38

I think me and some of the others being

21:40

authentic was we created

21:42

a space where we were able to depend

21:46

on each other . Now , after that first year

21:48

, we all went into our respective areas , so

21:51

we didn't see each other that much anymore . We

21:54

lost quite a bit of cohort members . The

21:57

other woman of color she was from Puerto

21:59

Rico . That was our first year

22:01

in grad school was when Puerto Rico was hit by

22:03

the hurricane , and she was an activist

22:05

in Puerto Rico . So she felt

22:07

a greater call to going home

22:09

and actually doing

22:11

her work directly with the community than

22:14

to be in the ivory tower and , of

22:16

course , absolutely respect her for it , because

22:18

the work that she was doing was important , was

22:20

important and I've always

22:23

been proud of her for making that decision

22:25

. I do believe only two of us

22:27

have graduated out of my cohort out

22:31

of the eight to 10 . Only two of us have

22:33

graduated , and

22:36

it was myself and

22:38

one of the other women . She was older , so

22:42

she was ready to .

22:43

She hated even , in fact , she had to go back to school , but she

22:46

got in , got out and both of us did

22:48

, got jobs , and so

22:51

yeah , OK , before

22:54

we pivot to your life after

22:56

the doctoral degree , do you think were some

22:58

of the key factors that

23:00

helped you get to and

23:02

through the degree compared to

23:04

some of your cohort mates ?

23:08

Therapy . I was

23:10

the mental health advocate of my

23:13

group . I

23:16

was the one that was like I'm

23:18

going to the health center to go to therapy . Somebody

23:21

got to talk to me and this is not OK . Therapy

23:25

, understanding that academia

23:34

was not made for me , like

23:36

just having to chunk , just chuck

23:38

things up , to that sometimes , like

23:40

this is a space that was not created with me in mind

23:42

and even though I

23:44

am in said space , this space was not

23:46

created with me in mind . So of course , this feels uncomfortable

23:49

, of course this feels wrong

23:51

, like this is , yeah , it is because they

23:54

never expected Lil' Lowe Brown , me , to

23:56

be here , right ? So

23:59

that was , I think , the biggest thing . And

24:03

then I guess I

24:06

always appreciated the autonomy that came with

24:08

being a professor , being

24:10

a PhD student , because I

24:12

was on fellowship . I did not have to teach , I

24:14

did not , I didn't necessarily have

24:16

to take on RA ships . Everything

24:18

I did was to put extra money

24:20

into my pocket or to just get experience . So

24:23

I had a lot of autonomy and

24:25

in that

24:28

I was able to spend time with my family . I

24:30

was able to spend time with my family , and

24:34

so that was great . That

24:36

was great . But

24:38

I also still feel like , even though I was with my family , sometimes

24:40

I wasn't present . So that's always something that I

24:43

often think about . I'm like , even

24:46

though I was there , I don't feel like I was

24:48

. I just I feel like the PhD kind

24:50

of had me in a chokehold

24:52

, secretly in the corner .

24:55

That's actually interesting because a

24:57

couple of people have talked about and

25:00

I don't know if this has come up in season one

25:03

, but in season two I feel like a lot

25:05

of people have talked about this idea

25:07

of ensuring , on

25:09

the one hand , either ensuring that you're spending

25:11

time with your family , because that

25:13

is time that you can't get back , not

25:16

letting the doctoral degree , not letting the PhD

25:18

prevent you from

25:20

you know , really spending quality time with the

25:23

people that you love and care about , and

25:25

I'm curious if well

25:28

, no , season one was also a post pandemic

25:30

. I was going to make a , I was going to suggest a theory that

25:32

it has to do with the pandemic , but season

25:34

one was a good one ?

25:35

I do , I do think so . I do think so

25:37

because I just think

25:39

about the

25:41

piece of the , the piece of the pandemic , and then

25:44

being at the stage in your

25:46

life where your elders

25:48

are starting to get sick , your parents

25:50

are becoming elders , you

25:52

know , your elders are passing away . I

25:54

think that , coupled with the pandemic and

25:57

the multitude of health

25:59

issues that came post pandemic

26:01

, you know , due to us , one not used

26:03

to people , germs , people having

26:06

long-term complications from having coronavirus

26:08

, things of that sort of nature , all of

26:10

that together , I think probably really put

26:12

an emphasis on wanting

26:15

to make memories , wanting to be with

26:17

your community , because

26:19

none of us foresaw what

26:21

we experienced , absolutely

26:23

.

26:23

Yeah , you're 100% right and , as you say that I'm

26:25

now thinking , I think that most of the people who

26:27

we interviewed in season one- even though the

26:29

interviews were conducted in 2021

26:33

, I think that most people had gotten their degrees

26:35

before 2020 . So that makes

26:37

sense that people who we spoke into this season

26:39

, who may have graduated a little bit later , likely

26:42

were in grass , or at least some part of their

26:44

journey was heavily influenced

26:47

by the pandemic . So thanks for that reflection piece

26:49

. So now , talking about your

26:51

work , what

26:54

are some of the most pressing issues

26:56

? You only pick two . I'm

26:58

going to limit it to two . What are two

27:01

of the most pressing issues that

27:03

black communities face right now

27:06

in terms of political knowledge

27:08

? Since that's your area of expertise

27:10

and issues might

27:12

not be the right word , so

27:15

you can feel free to share . Maybe

27:17

there are pieces of , like black political knowledge

27:19

that the rest

27:21

of the country is missing out on . You

27:23

can either share that or you can feel

27:25

free to take the question the direction you want .

27:27

Yeah . So I think two of the

27:30

biggest issues , or maybe

27:32

points , is that one . My

27:37

students and I were actually just talking about this . It was a

27:39

matter . It's a matter of like a moving goalpost . It's

27:43

very difficult . It's very difficult

27:45

for a nation that

27:48

never saw value

27:50

in a group of folks other than for their labor

27:52

and for their bodies , for them

27:54

to then recognize

27:58

our value in other areas . And

28:01

so part

28:03

of my work is showing like there is value

28:05

in what black folks know and that

28:07

these facts are

28:09

just as reliable

28:13

, they're just as consistent

28:15

measures as some of

28:17

these facts that we've been asking

28:19

since 1945 . And

28:22

we have to understand that these

28:24

particular facts , these

28:28

facts , may even

28:30

be better measures . They may be

28:32

better markers of being knowledgeable

28:34

about politics because they don't

28:36

just cover one particular aspect

28:38

. There's normally some type of

28:41

it

28:43

measures knowledge in a way that's more multi-dimensional

28:46

. So you're more likely to have

28:48

folks across the board

28:50

, across the citizenry , know these

28:52

particular facts than just you

28:55

knowing who has control of the

28:57

House , of the Senate . So

28:59

that would , I think , be the first one . Second

29:02

one is our

29:04

spaces , our black

29:07

folk spaces , our black people spaces church

29:09

, bee shops , barbershops , boys

29:12

and girls club , community centers , fraternity

29:14

, sororities , all of the above

29:16

. These are spaces that we need to make

29:18

sure that we're pouring into , because these

29:20

are the spaces in which black

29:23

children will be socialized into

29:25

American political culture and black political

29:27

culture , and these particular spaces serve

29:30

as reinforcements for

29:32

knowledge for and

29:35

other aspects of political behavior . So we

29:37

really need to make sure that we are pouring

29:39

into those spaces . Still , in

29:43

my dissertation I tell the story of I

29:45

tell a couple of stories about knowledge

29:48

that I gathered from black spaces

29:50

, and one I

29:52

got from church . My pastor

29:55

growing up in Little

29:57

Rock , arkansas , was a lawyer and

29:59

he sat us down I think

30:01

it was like from 12 , 12 , 12 to 18

30:04

or so , or 12 to early 20s . He sat

30:06

us all down together and he spoke to

30:08

us about statutory rape laws because

30:11

he was dealing with a case where

30:13

there a young black man was now

30:15

facing statutory rape with a

30:18

girlfriend and they

30:21

had , I guess they had known each other , but once

30:23

her family , her parents , found out

30:25

that they were sexually active , they did not

30:27

care that it was consensual and they pressed

30:29

charges against him , and so he wanted

30:31

us to be aware of what the laws were

30:33

in Arkansas . That you know

30:36

, even though

30:38

and he I don't say this , he

30:40

really didn't even try to put a Jesus spin on it Like Jesus

30:42

don't want you to , you know , have sex . It was more

30:44

so of no . I need you to know what the laws are . I

30:46

need you to understand that this is something

30:49

that , even though you can consent

30:51

to by law

30:53

, this person cannot consent and that

30:55

it is no longer their decision . It is their

30:57

parents decision on whether or not they choose to

30:59

be upset about these actions . So

31:02

, again , you know , given that this

31:04

is how you know you should be thinking about

31:06

dating , this is how you should be thinking about

31:09

having questions , liking folks

31:11

. And that stuck with me because

31:13

I was like what I mean I'd

31:18

never that's not a conversation with everything

31:20

that you would have with your pastor , and then to

31:22

sit us all down , I mean , like I said

31:24

12 to 20

31:27

, and be like , yeah , I know I got

31:29

a big group of y'all in here , but y'all need to know

31:31

this . I would not be doing

31:33

my duty as your pastor and potentially

31:35

your lawyer if something happened , if

31:38

I don't tell you this . And so , and

31:41

I think about all throughout my life , the different

31:43

spaces where I got to know

31:45

about blackness , black history

31:47

and

31:49

just how to be safe as

31:51

a black person . They all happened

31:53

in black spaces , so we have to keep

31:55

pointing to these spaces .

31:57

Yeah , yeah , that's such an impactful

31:59

story . Are you writing

32:01

a book ?

32:03

Yeah , so my dissertation is . I am

32:05

about to start the process of turning my dissertation

32:07

into a book . It was

32:10

written in book format six chapters

32:12

, so now it's just kind of revising

32:15

and finding time .

32:17

Yes .

32:19

Do you guys have a writing board ?

32:21

We do not have a formal

32:24

writing group that meets all the time , but

32:26

we do . In the spring we do

32:28

a dissertation writing accountability challenge

32:30

and so for

32:33

that we like pair people off and we have

32:35

prizes for , like , who gets the most writing done

32:37

. So that's one of our spring programs

32:39

. Okay , yeah

32:42

, can you talk about since you

32:44

mentioned a little bit earlier

32:46

about being able to have

32:48

fellowships that like absolved

32:50

you from having to teach or be

32:52

an RA can you talk about

32:55

the role of both

32:57

academic year fellowships and summer

32:59

fellowships in both preparing yourself

33:02

for graduate school ? Can

33:05

you talk about the role of summer fellowships

33:07

and academic year fellowships , both

33:10

in terms of preparing you for graduate school and

33:12

helping you and preparing you for your ultimate

33:14

career ? Like just the whole preparation , like how were

33:16

you prepared by the summer

33:18

research programs that you did before you started grad school

33:20

, as well as the fellowship that you held

33:23

while in grad school ?

33:25

So I

33:27

believe that my the summer programs

33:29

I did prior to graduate school really

33:31

helped me understand more , so

33:34

of understand

33:36

more about academia , understand more about

33:38

the research process from

33:40

start to finish , and also

33:43

the importance of having community during

33:46

that process . I

33:48

mean because I just recall , and

33:51

at least when we were , when my

33:53

cohort was at this Ralph Bunch Summer Institute

33:55

, we

33:58

were the cohort that did

34:01

not well . Some of us had work-life balance , some

34:03

of us did not . And after

34:06

our cohort there was a rule

34:08

that you could not sleep in the computer

34:10

lab because we would sleep in

34:12

the , we would pillow

34:15

and blanket . I need 30 minutes , wake

34:17

me up in 30 minutes in the

34:20

computer lab on campus at Duke , and

34:22

so and that's the

34:24

thing I say it really gave me an inside look of how

34:26

this was gonna go . I mean because sometimes I

34:28

mean we hope that that's not what you're doing , but sometimes

34:31

if you have a deadline , that is what it is . I need 30

34:33

minutes just to let my brain just

34:35

turn off and turn back on . And

34:37

so I think that really gave me a snapshot or at least

34:39

a glimpse into what academia will look

34:41

like In terms

34:43

of my fellowship while

34:46

I was in graduate school . It

34:52

was a blessing to not be

34:55

funded by my department . I was funded

34:57

through the college , I think

34:59

. Okay , so that's the lesson . The lesson is

35:01

sometimes , when you get your money from somewhere else

35:03

, your money needs to be attached

35:06

to another entity and

35:08

not the entity that directly oversees

35:11

you , because that

35:13

allows you some type of leverage , that

35:16

allows you strategy when

35:18

it comes to certain things and you don't have to be concerned

35:20

sometimes about particular politics

35:23

, and I think

35:25

that was the lesson there . A

35:27

drawback was that I was not

35:30

allowed to teach , so I essentially

35:32

had no teaching experience . No

35:34

teaching experience when I came into

35:37

my job . But that was not the case

35:39

. I had done other things too , because

35:41

I was worried that that was going to be a

35:44

deficit when I was applying

35:46

and I saw out opportunities

35:48

to try and make sure that it

35:51

wasn't . So I had a small

35:53

TA ship and then I actually

35:55

helped create a class called Data Science

35:57

and Public Policy while I was at Purdue with a professor

36:00

. So I had an idea

36:02

of what it took to create a class from scratch

36:04

, what it looked like and that sort of

36:06

thing , so I was able to

36:08

kind of get around that .

36:10

Awesome that's

36:12

. I haven't thought about like okay

36:14

, if you don't end up having to teach , how

36:16

does that potentially Exactly . You

36:18

had a disadvantage , but if you wanna , teach . So

36:21

that's helpful . Helpful just

36:24

like context for some folks who might

36:26

be in a similar position . So , as we wind

36:29

down , what is one thing that you would do

36:31

differently if you had two persons

36:33

? Strange reason to your PhD all

36:35

over again .

36:44

I would spend more time with my family , and

36:46

I spent a lot of time with my family , so , but

36:48

I would spend more time . I

36:53

lost two grandparents while

36:55

I was in graduate school , and the first happened my

36:57

second year I wanna say second

37:01

maybe going into my third and

37:03

so that did kind of wake me up early on of ? Yeah

37:05

, I know I need to , because the last time I

37:07

saw my grandmother she was in a casket . I

37:10

did not get a chance to see her beforehand and

37:13

that bothered me . So I was

37:15

the closest I had ever been

37:18

as an adult to

37:20

my maternal great-grandmother . I

37:24

had maternal grandparents

37:26

, so I was with them all the time . You

37:29

couldn't see them most of the time without me . If

37:32

somebody had a doctor's appointment , someone had

37:34

a surgery , anything , I

37:36

was there . And

37:39

my maternal grandmother ended up being diagnosed

37:41

with breast cancer while I was in graduate school . She's

37:44

I mean , she made it . It was my grandfather

37:46

who ended up passing away , but

37:49

she is technically not in

37:51

remission , but she is

37:53

. She's well . She is , you

37:55

know , figuring

37:58

out what her life looks like now as a 75

38:00

year old who does not have her partner

38:02

of 50 plus years . But

38:04

I would just spend more time with them and it

38:06

probably focused more on being

38:09

present with them in the

38:11

moments that I did have being more present

38:13

. But yeah , that would

38:15

probably be the only thing that I would do differently

38:17

.

38:18

I'm really sorry for your loss and thank you so much

38:21

for your vulnerability and that reflection

38:24

on that time of your life . Our very last

38:26

question , and maybe this is tied , maybe

38:28

it's not tied , but what is one piece

38:30

of advice that you have for current

38:33

black women and non-binary folks who are

38:35

in a doctoral program ? Only

38:38

one .

38:42

I got two .

38:43

Okay , okay , I'll let you have two .

38:46

Again , remembering that the Academy was not made

38:48

with you in mind . That kind of helps

38:50

. Certain things roll off your back . And

38:52

then our running joke is WWJD

38:55

, what would Josh do , what would Jake do ? And

38:58

so it is your prototypical

39:01

male

39:03

student that think that they

39:05

know everything . So sometimes you have to

39:07

employ what would Josh do , what would Jake do

39:10

? And that

39:12

helps . Sometimes you just be like well , I

39:15

ain't read , but I'm gonna say some too . Who cares

39:17

, it'll be fine . So

39:20

that would be my piece of advice .

39:23

Well , thank you so much , Dr Jackson for

39:25

joining us on the Coercises Podcast , sharing

39:28

your really interesting research

39:30

, your trajectory , your journey , as

39:32

well as the really important and insightful

39:34

advice that you had for our

39:36

current doctoral students . As well as you gave us some

39:38

advice for people who are either thinking about exploring doctoral

39:41

programs and for even undergrads

39:43

, who anyone who has a black woman professor . This

39:46

episode is for you , too , because we

39:48

are doing our best .

39:50

We're trying , we are all trying .

39:52

Yes , so thank you so much again .

39:54

Thank you , thank you guys , for having me .

40:36

Thank you so much for joining us this week and we'll catch

40:38

you in next week's episode .