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i reading

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shiny history podcast listeners

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laws on montgomery here once again

0:58

with another special chp episode

1:01

who doesn't like that ching dynasty

1:03

other them all whole manchu thing

1:06

and everything that happened between towel guang and pu

1:08

yi lots of good things came

1:10

out of this era and chinese history

1:13

in the realm of chinese culture

1:16

including art and literature and all

1:18

it's forms the cheering was

1:20

another and a long line of the

1:22

olden times and chinese history

1:25

without mine i'm happy to invite a

1:27

guest and of this long running family program

1:29

who is going to introduce

1:32

something that was

1:33

quite a big deal in the world of

1:36

sing dynasty arts and culture

1:39

the topic that everyone has well

1:41

at least heard about been i'm

1:43

guessing knows very little

1:45

the history of snuff bottles and seeing

1:48

era china welcome

1:50

to the china history podcast mr

1:52

andrews singer

1:53

thank you laszlo i am very happy

1:56

to be here speaking with you today on your always

1:58

informative and entertaining pike

2:01

well before we dive right in could you be so

2:03

kind as to give me the skinny on your

2:05

background and how you ended up writing

2:07

and speaking so much about china

2:10

and when did the fascination with snuff bottles

2:12

began

2:14

abby to our the the fascination

2:16

with china started when i was very

2:18

young as growing up on cape

2:20

cod and i always was interested

2:23

in the great wall and

2:25

in china in general this is

2:27

in the seventies early eighties and

2:29

, i went to high school i knew that i wanted to go to college

2:32

to study chinese and

2:34

to have the chance to go to china which wasn't

2:37

very does not lot of options

2:39

in the mid nineteen eighties so

2:42

ah but i did i found a great program in program

2:44

great teacher great vassar college

2:46

in new york state and

2:48

in nineteen eighty six i

2:50

found myself in beijing and late august

2:52

almost thirty six years ago now and

2:56

i knew nothing about snuff bottles at that time

2:59

i was twenty years old one week

3:01

into china i'd met a guy

3:03

classes hasn't started yet and so we

3:06

jumped on a train their who her hotter

3:08

the capital of inner mongolia and

3:11

i was young mid eighties it was

3:13

very remote up there at that point

3:15

that point there were there were very very few foreigners

3:18

and this guy and i were walking

3:21

around looking for the the

3:23

minority handicraft factory we

3:26

finally found it it was a journey in itself to get

3:28

their own we got there we found a was this little tiny

3:30

store with almost no inventory that

3:33

on one of the shelves

3:35

the had a bottle

3:36

and it was a

3:39

dark brown

3:40

small two inches metal bottle as

3:43

plane on the sides it had these animal

3:45

masks going up the side had a little stop

3:48

or on top with a spoon connected to

3:50

no idea what it was but

3:52

i like the feel of it i liked the look

3:54

of it i can't remember been sure like

3:56

the price of it to the couldn't have been too expensive

3:59

and i bought my first not bottle

4:02

one week into china

4:03

i have to admit i've known

4:05

about snuff bottles going back to my twenties

4:09

they're always knew what they were snuff models

4:11

but i never tried snuff before

4:14

and i wasn't sure exactly what it was other

4:16

than that you in a old it like cocaine

4:19

so these not bottles that

4:21

fit so nicely in the palm of your hand

4:24

rose familiar to me as

4:26

a china town or chinese

4:29

airport gift shop stable but

4:31

beyond that i didn't know

4:33

much and i'm guessing a fair portion of my listenership

4:36

as in that same leaky boat that

4:38

i'm and so here's my chance to set everything

4:40

straight so i started the beginning

4:42

what is snuff where did it originally

4:44

come from where was it used

4:47

and how did it get to china

4:50

snuff is a form

4:52

of finely ground tobacco

4:55

that is mixed with herbs and spices

4:57

like a rose leaves or mosque

5:00

and at tobacco

5:02

is a product from the americas and

5:06

when tobacco was first

5:09

that's a quote unquote discovered by the europeans

5:12

was , back in the first person

5:16

who is reported to have found tobacco

5:18

and brought it back to europe was a member of columbus

5:20

crew and fourteen ninety two the

5:22

guy but name of rodrigo de harass

5:25

and rodrigo

5:28

found dried tobacco leaves in cuba

5:30

any brought them back to spain unfortunately

5:33

for poor rodrigo he in

5:36

spain what the cubans apparently we're doing

5:38

on their islands he took the dried tobacco

5:41

he wrapped it in paper he lit up

5:44

as he was puffing away smoke

5:46

was coming out of his nose and mouth and

5:48

it's so freaked out everybody

5:50

that he won the being arrested and imprisoned

5:52

by the inquisition so the

5:55

first experience with tobacco in the

5:57

new in the old world from the new world what

5:59

wasn't all that

5:59

the

6:01

but very

6:03

near within historical times within a century

6:05

or so tobacco was

6:08

making it's way to it and older world made

6:10

it's way to asia and tobacco

6:13

in and snuff farm found it's way

6:15

too china through

6:18

macau impossibly ,

6:22

japan european ships he wants the maritime

6:24

trade from europe had started in the

6:26

sixteenth century it

6:29

was coming over but even

6:31

then tobacco was not it

6:33

, it's issues and ages wellstone

6:35

in sixteen thirty is the end of the ming

6:38

dynasty there was there

6:40

imperial court decreed that said

6:42

those who hawk and sell tobacco to foreigners

6:45

would be decapitated their heads exposed

6:48

on pikes so

6:50

the ming dynasty at the end of the ming dynasty they were

6:53

know they're friendly towards tobacco

6:56

, but as you noted in the in the lead in

6:58

the introduction it was

7:00

really sing dynasty were snuff

7:03

took off in china as

7:05

, there

7:08

was eventually snuff groaning emmy tobacco

7:11

true that was turned into stuff was grown in

7:14

china or they had it in sichuan

7:16

guangdong and jiangsu province then

7:19

a higher quality came from europe

7:22

they grow it in spain france in scotland

7:24

but the best of the best was

7:26

ama street from brazil and

7:29

the portuguese brought that from brazil

7:31

over the lisbon from lisbon

7:34

through go on molokai in macau

7:36

when they brought it into china and

7:38

one story is is that in

7:41

seventeen nineteen i think it was the

7:43

macau senate sent forty

7:46

eight bottles of am a strainer

7:48

snuff to the can see emperor anywhere

7:50

of these would have been larger bottles not

7:52

like a snuff bought a which has to into this would have been a jar

7:55

and it was very very expensive but

7:57

it was seen as

7:59

a product as a gift or something very luxurious

8:03

how did how did you use snuff

8:05

out what are the paraphernalia the the

8:07

rituals and ways

8:10

it was used and stored as

8:12

i've seen some of these old antique

8:14

retail tins of snuff and

8:16

those were just exquisite by

8:19

how did it all worked with the packaging

8:21

and usage

8:23

china whatever

8:26

humid climate so in the boxes

8:28

the tins will you mentioned in snuff box

8:31

that we used in europe are you really weren't

8:34

conducive to the chinese

8:38

climate so snuff

8:41

was stored that the original

8:44

snuff when i was in larger supply was starting

8:46

glass jars you have a cork on top had

8:48

to keep it fresh and then there was

8:50

as you said a whole bunch of paraphernalia there

8:52

were funnels

8:55

and scoops and spatulas and

8:57

so you would take the large jar and

8:59

you would use a scoop and you'd get

9:01

some of the snuff out of that for

9:03

large yard then you would use a spatula and

9:06

put it into the top of a final these are ivory funnels

9:08

ivory spatulas they put they funnel into

9:10

a top of a lot a little snuff bottle again

9:13

usually about two two and a half three inches tall

9:15

and they would use the spatula in the funnel and

9:18

they would load in refill the

9:20

snuff bottles from the larger jars

9:24

originally when snuff was

9:26

in imperial court for this and i'm

9:29

sure that those jars of snuff for

9:31

kept by the unix in the attendance

9:33

and they were done high in the palaces

9:36

later when snuff became more widespread

9:39

used in society dealers who

9:41

were selling snuff bottles usually had

9:43

jars of snuff on

9:45

their desks in their shots and stuff

9:48

was worth

9:49

that i much more than the bottle forward

9:51

the name bottles some of these models

9:53

are worth a lot of money will talk about i'm sure but

9:56

then it was the snuff that was really expensive

9:58

and they would use that and get them

9:59

to the bottle

10:01

each bottle there's a stopper in the stopper

10:04

has a little piece a cork hundred

10:06

to seal the mouth of the bottle with a spoon

10:08

might have been an ivory spoon might have been a metal spoon

10:11

like in my first bottle and

10:14

users of snuff would

10:16

use little spoon to get their pinch

10:18

snuff out of the bottle some

10:20

people use snuff dishes little this is there

10:22

were either of the same material or matching

10:25

and they might put the stuff on a dish if dish was

10:27

gonna be if i'm having tea with

10:29

you and were having were having i might

10:32

put my fine littles stuff on

10:34

my desk and share it with you and you would take

10:36

a pension you would snippets

10:38

snuff the the word snuff

10:41

comes from the dutch and it's from

10:43

a snifter back north

10:45

is short for snuff and which means to inhale

10:48

strongly into the nose to back

10:50

as tobacco those smoke tobacco

10:53

inhale tobacco and so

10:55

that is where we get our word for snuff

10:58

and that was exactly how was

11:00

used by the chinese as it became

11:02

more popular in the country

11:04

this began during that saying which

11:06

emperor's took part in the in the

11:08

snuff culture you mentioned can see

11:11

it can you speak to

11:12

the nobles aristocrats in all

11:15

the swells so our took

11:17

in this sub culture i'm this didn't

11:19

seem like something that was

11:21

enjoyed by the working class i'm assuming it

11:23

was out of reach price wise to the

11:25

average farmer worker

11:28

the absolutely in the beginning

11:31

snuff was a a while tobacco

11:33

had been as we said blue before the ching dynasty

11:35

was in china but it was really starting with the can

11:38

see young jan jan long emperor's

11:41

were , really became

11:44

a part of the imperial court and

11:46

that's where started a to start it was at

11:48

the emperor level the imperial level in

11:50

that was through all of can

11:52

see in youngstown and the first part of the chamlong

11:55

the empire in the eighteenth

11:57

century by the late eighties

12:00

century the literati and

12:02

some of of the other police and society

12:04

we're starting to use it eventually

12:07

in the nineteenth century it spread

12:10

more widespread throughout society in

12:12

what i like to think is okay

12:14

this is okay was used when it was used

12:17

listen to me is why was it used and

12:20

when snuff first made

12:22

it's way into china it is it was seen

12:24

initially as medicinal it

12:27

, a prophylactic that could dispel

12:29

com calls it could improve

12:31

your digestion remove i pain

12:34

it could resolve constipation

12:36

an asthma it was it was

12:38

just a really good cure

12:40

all for that which failed

12:42

you and so the medicinal

12:44

aspects of enough

12:47

where i think would originally was attractive

12:50

now it also had a couple other uses more

12:52

functions not uses one of the other functions

12:54

was at that it could mask offenses

12:56

smells the oh he could not

12:59

protect you against dust in the northern

13:01

climate snuff taking was traditionally

13:03

initially in northern

13:06

the

13:08

custom it didn't spread to the south

13:10

of china so much later and

13:13

in general snuff was said

13:15

to add your overall feeling of wellbeing

13:18

yeah you took it you were sneezing you were clearing

13:21

out your body it was just making you feel better

13:23

and so that's why they were taking it in against not

13:25

surprising that started with the imperial

13:28

court and then also not surprising that

13:30

as the emperor's really liked it it started

13:33

creeping down into society that's the snuff

13:35

taking itself near the bottles

13:38

came

13:39

with it but by a little bit subsequent

13:42

to exactly you know when the stuff

13:44

itself was starting to use

13:46

the the upper him for like a

13:48

minister of snuff for with

13:50

somebody proof you know

13:52

took care of everything for the emperor did

13:54

the she and long

13:56

for example that he just keep a bottle

13:58

in his you know

13:59

dragon robes to take

14:02

a hit on every now and that had it added

14:05

that work at the imperial court

14:07

the a killer question is both there

14:11

, is said that the can see emperor used

14:13

to carry a gourd shapes snuff

14:16

bottle in a silk pouch within his

14:18

robes there is a portrait

14:20

of the dog long emperor actually taking

14:23

snuff were though he's holding the ball

14:25

on one hand in a pinch of that stuff is on

14:27

the spoon the simone

14:29

emperor with clearly as with

14:32

so much of thing history things

14:35

really took off with a chamlong emperor there are very

14:37

few snuff bottles that you can

14:39

find from the can see in the young young

14:41

rains there's some but it was really

14:43

with chamlong in the seventeen

14:47

thirty six to seventy ninety five where

14:49

you really saw an explosion

14:52

and snuff bottles as an

14:54

art form as political

14:56

capital as a type of currency

14:58

and gifting that's when that really took

15:00

off

15:02

we could stray from my chinese

15:04

history just a little a do with or any other

15:06

notable historical people who

15:08

were hardcore snuff

15:10

users

15:12

very true that i've come

15:14

across in the

15:17

second half of the eighteenth century first part

15:19

of the nineteenth century queen charlotte

15:21

who was the wife of king george the third

15:24

she was so enamored with snuff

15:27

she used it's so much that her nickname

15:29

was actually snuff is charlotte so

15:33

she , quite well known apparently for

15:35

for being a snuff con a sore sore

15:38

then we also had it on the side of the of

15:41

dolley madison who was president

15:43

james madison's wife is is in the early in

15:46

century ce was nineteenth

15:48

to be of very

15:51

connoisseur of snuff and at one white

15:53

house gathering of and lady

15:55

friends she served ice cream and

15:57

plates of snuff and

15:59

example of side of

16:02

the atlantic where snuff

16:04

was part of the tradition well roald

16:06

dahl emails and she always knew how to throw good

16:08

party be you know i

16:10

scream and snuff you get out kick out

16:12

kick better than that yeah hum and i have to remember

16:15

that my next get together

16:20

the let's discuss the bottles

16:22

when did they go from being functional

16:25

containers to these

16:28

great works of art and how much snuff

16:30

could they hold with you know was that like a day's

16:32

worth that you'd like fill it up every

16:34

day or it's and and and also

16:37

at first who manufactured them in

16:39

europe and later

16:41

in china

16:42

in europe snuff was contained in boxes

16:45

in there are some very beautiful example to snuff

16:47

box as in in museums that

16:49

, seen in china china

16:52

from the beginning yeah and that sing dynasty

16:54

when snuff was being saved

16:56

and starting to be used the

16:58

boxes as i mentioned didn't work as they would

17:01

they weren't they humidity proof so the

17:03

chinese and not everyone agrees with them with

17:05

this but them with people feel that the

17:07

chinese had a tradition at that time of medicine

17:10

bottles porcelain sometimes

17:13

metal medicine bottle sometimes with a screw top

17:15

of the time so the court and that's where they would put

17:17

their the a liquid another medicines

17:19

and so there there's

17:21

a feeling the and seems to

17:23

make sense to me that at least initially

17:25

they were familiar the chin court was familiar

17:28

with bottles as

17:30

a container so i

17:32

think that in the imperial workshops

17:36

unconscious set up the imperial workshops

17:38

not some bottles started being produced the

17:40

balls were first made in those imperial

17:42

workshops and they

17:45

were utilitarian but they were also

17:47

artistic and they were slowly

17:49

though it ramped up yellow as he said there was some simple

17:51

bottles from the com seen

17:53

young seen young but once you get

17:55

to channel that's when the bottles

17:58

are still functional the functional all the way into

18:01

the into the throughout the nineteenth century

18:03

however , also has become much more

18:06

artistic so the types of materials

18:08

just explode and the chamlong rain you have

18:11

glass bottles that might be simple glass

18:13

overlay glass you have crystal

18:16

which would be inside painted or carved

18:18

you had hard stones like jade

18:20

and ah yes there

18:22

were organic materials

18:25

hilda lack brigade coral

18:27

there was just so many different varieties

18:29

of materials that were used there were different

18:31

shapes they were square round

18:34

oval somewhere longer

18:37

or shorter summer wider or center

18:39

so they just had a very wide

18:42

range of what you could do so

18:44

the bottles were the bottles then

18:48

china being china the

18:51

decoration it was the it was the

18:53

how they adorned them

18:55

that really gives the meaning and

18:58

and as i know you know in chinese

19:01

history the tradition

19:03

of the cosmos a an artistic and philosophy

19:06

the cosmos nature the

19:09

connection to all of that is very very

19:11

important and so what

19:13

happened was snuff bottles

19:15

that they became

19:18

this representation of all these

19:20

other things in chinese history and art

19:22

and culture there , there

19:24

was a very famous snuff bottle collector

19:27

collector author bob stevens

19:30

and he wrote that snuff bottles

19:32

are the ultimate expression of

19:34

realism in minutes

19:36

and

19:38

realism in miniature is a chinese tradition

19:40

from imperial gardens to

19:42

the layout of imperial palaces

19:45

to the materials that are on

19:47

a literati scholars desk you're

19:49

trying to condense down the world

19:51

and the universe and the cosmos into this miniature

19:54

is really important and

19:56

that is what these incredible artisans

19:58

did snuff bottles

20:01

v whether they were painted or carved

20:04

or molded and

20:06

the all all three of those and more where

20:08

it were methods of decorating

20:10

these bottles

20:12

almost always the had mean they

20:14

had a deeper

20:15

the aspect to arm and and

20:18

then known as reverses in

20:20

a rebus is a method of using

20:22

pictures or words and symbols

20:25

to signify something else to convey a deeper

20:27

meaning and in china specifically

20:30

on snuff bottles the reverses

20:32

are

20:34

i mean there there

20:36

the so many of the made a very oh in

20:38

the typically these reverses

20:40

stand for the

20:43

blessings there for a happy

20:45

marriage their wishing you many sons

20:47

are longevity or wealth or promotion

20:49

in imperial office success on the

20:51

civil service examinations your

20:54

these rebus is all are

20:56

meant to convey this meaning

20:58

and one of them they'd like to share

21:01

a deal with deal magpie he

21:05

tricked the magpie

21:07

is magpie bird of joy

21:10

happiness the bird of prophecy and

21:12

, if you see a snuff bottle and

21:14

there there two magpies on

21:17

the bottle that is a symbol

21:19

for swansea double happiness it's

21:21

a it's a wedding wedding with if

21:24

you see a magpie where the chrysanthemum

21:26

flower that is a rebus

21:29

hominem for george yeah one

21:31

look maybe entire family

21:33

be happy because it's combining

21:36

the two why which is a chrysanthemum

21:38

that the hominem for happiness and family

21:41

together and then when you see yeah

21:43

on a bottle you know that's what that was wishing as

21:45

a gift that was given december

21:47

if you see like

21:49

this when if you see a magpie on top of

21:51

a plum tree plumbers may

21:54

may also eyebrow so

21:56

the reverse the hominem for a magpie

21:58

on top of a plum tree she sung

22:01

me schwab

22:02

may you may your joy reach up

22:04

to the top of your eyebrows

22:06

though it is a method of saying you're here

22:08

i'm giving you something i want you to be happy i

22:10

want you to wish you happy marriage there

22:13

are reverses that offer

22:16

protection shouldn't

22:19

, way who is the demon queller there

22:21

is a bottle of story we have junk

22:23

way with his demon attendance on

22:25

one side of the bottle and on the other side

22:27

of the bottle you have his sister

22:30

in a being pushed by other demons and a cart

22:32

that's , for me yeah

22:35

may means marrying

22:37

off one sister so the story is

22:39

john claim marrying off his sister but

22:42

the holiday the hominem for that

22:45

the a saying to subjugate

22:47

demons and ward off evil spirits so

22:50

if you were traveling you would want this bottle because

22:52

it would help you ward off evil spirits and

22:54

protect you while you're out traveling

22:56

so these reverses just have a phenomenally

22:59

rich

23:01

level of meaning in depth which

23:03

is a which is incredible when he starts

23:05

actually study what a bottle is a new none

23:07

of this when i bought my first dozen bottles

23:09

during my first trip to china in akamai

23:12

live there for an academic year and eighty six and

23:14

nineteen eighty seven a new none of this

23:16

i just knew i liked the bottles

23:19

my education is really taken off

23:21

since then and then and when you look

23:23

at it the the what's there is just a nice

23:26

the bottles as a work of art this

23:28

is all starting around cm long

23:31

era this is where

23:33

it began

23:34

yes mostly during the chamlong era

23:37

is is where it started and and

23:39

you know that's good and bad as as i'm

23:41

sure you can gather i'm from an artistic form

23:43

the beautiful from they became

23:46

at the imperial court a form

23:48

of gift giving i mean this small big the

23:50

they can the holding your hand you can talk him into folds

23:53

of your gowns you can hang i'm from a belt because

23:55

they were in pouches that chinese traditionally

23:58

outfits didn't have pockets so they would hang

24:00

on from your belts and sashes

24:02

well they became gifts and

24:05

the there were imperial

24:07

palace is where workshops where the bottles arisen

24:09

were produced eventual he has spread

24:11

to workshops outside a beijing in

24:13

sioux joke shanghai guan joe

24:16

also the imperial shops

24:18

and sing the john for porcelain they're

24:20

also private workshops eventually they were making

24:23

snuff bottles there was a demand

24:25

high demands response to they were given as gifts

24:27

they were used by people who want is the stuff but they're

24:29

also for other reasons as rebus as i mentioned

24:31

wanting to wish people wealth and longevity

24:34

in high office he wanted to give them

24:36

out well in seventeen fifty

24:38

one the some long emperor was out on one

24:40

of his northern hunting expeditions which he liked

24:43

to get out of the city and go to do and

24:45

, he was up there he in this

24:47

is according to a record

24:50

in the first imperial archives of

24:52

the qing dynasty in beijing has been translated

24:55

and while he was on his hunting expedition

24:57

he exhausted his stock of flintstone

24:59

sets and stuff bottles and

25:02

so he sent an edict back

25:04

to beijing

25:06

ordering

25:07

twenty to thirty additional flint's

25:09

and thirty snuff bottles so he could give

25:11

them away during his expedition so

25:14

they've got thirty snuff bottles

25:16

out of the storage that they had made in beijing ship

25:18

them on up and the emperor was once again

25:23

full of his supply in addition

25:25

to being gifts and and a gift

25:27

giving can be get favors can be get

25:30

bribery can be get corruption

25:32

and so not surprisingly

25:34

at the the end of the simone era

25:37

when things were starting to be either a

25:39

fair amount of rebellions and things were not going

25:41

as well the the imperials

25:43

hills for not quite as full as

25:45

they used to be there is a very

25:48

the infamous man by

25:50

the name of solution

25:52

her son is the

25:54

i'm sure you've spoken about him before

25:57

your this anna me

25:59

that is twenty five year old how's

26:02

gate guard in five years and

26:04

seventeen seventy five to seventy

26:06

maybe he goes from nothing to everything

26:09

your he's the ya vice minister of revenue

26:11

is a grand council or he is us

26:13

the commander of them manchu plane blue

26:15

banner is in charge of the beijing gendarme

26:18

i mean this guy really got the channel

26:21

numbers ears ah , he

26:23

was confident and he was basically the gatekeeper

26:25

the chinese government for the from

26:28

seventy to eighty or so to

26:30

the end of the chamlong era long

26:33

advocated and seventeen ninety five but he

26:35

was still

26:36

really kind of running the show until seventy

26:39

nine you nine well when

26:41

, died and seventeen ninety nine

26:44

his son the new judging amber amber

26:46

no time in a resting

26:49

place on he was like yo everyone

26:51

knew that this guy this either

26:54

the obviously he was intelligent and savvy and cunning

26:56

any survive for a long time but

26:58

he had also acquired

27:01

through bribery and corruption i'm

27:04

what was said to be the most

27:06

amazing snuff bile collection among

27:08

other art in the world the and he might

27:10

have been the richest man the world at that time so

27:12

judging emperor gave my choice he said

27:15

you're gonna be executed we can

27:17

do it by slicing the traditional

27:20

rather painful method or

27:22

if you will give up where

27:24

you have buried use snuff bottles

27:26

and lose we will let you hang

27:28

yourself with assault poured a much more

27:32

noble way of way of your

27:34

life and so machine

27:36

again being a smart man i took the offer

27:38

i would do that to i'd take the

27:40

sell cards as slow slicing any

27:43

any day i

27:46

, definitely a wise choice

27:48

when the writing is on the wall and

27:50

so yeah he led the officials

27:52

to gardens outside beijing to

27:54

various homes he had and

27:56

at the end of the day

27:58

they recovered more two thousand

28:00

three hundred snuff bottles that

28:03

hussein had accepted as

28:05

payments has access to the emperor is

28:08

maybe just collecting them as arts he is said to

28:10

have only liked hard stone in amber snuff bottle

28:13

you didn't find any glass porcelain

28:15

or any other types of materials are but

28:18

he had more than eight hundred

28:20

white jade bottles and white

28:22

jade was considered very luxurious

28:24

and as was more than eight hundred of those

28:26

he had three hundred bc stone bottles more

28:28

than one hundred agate bottles t just

28:30

had bottles galore and

28:33

when you think about it i'm sure the snuff

28:35

bottles as many as the work for

28:37

probably a very small portion of his whole

28:39

horde in , snuff

28:41

bottles they , weren't

28:43

intricate part of the

28:46

qing dynasty from then on they didn't

28:48

they didn't go away

28:50

after chamlong but the i ching and dog

28:53

was imprisoned in thereafter there were still snuff

28:55

bottles but china's circumstances

28:57

you know we're not as well offer you

28:59

the luxury of the simone

29:02

era

29:03

they didn't continue the same way

29:06

there is a statement that

29:08

the i ching emperor he said an imperial

29:10

eat about snuff bottles writing

29:12

decoration is merely a foolish

29:15

squandering of funds he

29:17

was much more frugal than his father

29:19

was an in particular

29:21

the type of snuff bottle that is most

29:24

well known and most refined

29:26

in the judging era are molded porcelain

29:28

snuff bottles the the balls that were made in jing

29:30

the john and i'm design

29:32

was actually molded into them so you didn't

29:34

have the car from you didn't have the paint them they

29:37

were decorated but the main mold

29:39

was the main design was in the mold

29:41

was much cheaper was much easier much

29:44

to mass produce bottles like that and i like to

29:46

think that because the jets number

29:48

didn't like spending as much money but he still

29:50

needed to give gifts to snuff bottles this

29:52

was a easier way any more economical

29:55

way to produce them see

29:57

some not bottles from color

29:59

there's

30:01

i'm nine in person or

30:03

both the flexible schedules and small

30:06

class sizes at university of alaska anchorage

30:08

as college of engineering help you move

30:10

forward giving you the experience the

30:12

network and the skills to do more

30:14

graduates have gone on to design buildings

30:16

to withstand earthquakes build a self

30:19

driving cars and launch rockets

30:22

that first it takes investment in you enroll

30:24

now edu a dot alaska

30:27

dot edu being

30:29

sold at auction you know in the hundreds

30:31

of thousands and millions of dollars

30:35

what kind of bottle would sell for you

30:37

know say at auction for maybe

30:39

ten thousand what would you get

30:41

for a one hundred thousand dollars

30:43

and you know for people that are spending

30:45

millions for

30:48

single stuff bottle what

30:50

provenance or qualities

30:53

were contained that

30:56

christ it so high the

30:58

mean determinant i think of the most

31:00

value for bottles today is

31:03

is provenance as he said

31:05

and it's the eighteenth century the

31:08

there are chamlong bottles that

31:10

are established to that period on

31:13

there are some that are worth incredible sums of money

31:15

there are others that are worth not as much as

31:18

you get more recent vintage

31:20

you know bottles might not be worth much

31:22

at all there is one today

31:25

there is one tape a snuff bottle there is a very

31:27

active industry for inside painted bottles

31:30

these are glass and crystal bottles were

31:32

through a little the little mouth the top

31:35

he's artist put in these

31:37

special brushes and actually paint

31:40

credible scenes from people to

31:42

animals for landscapes from me

31:45

in reverse from the inside out and

31:47

there is a very active contemporary

31:50

inside painted bottle industry which

31:52

you have valuable bottles but the most

31:55

valuable from then all the way back it is going

31:57

to be the eighteenth century and then

31:59

maybe the nineteenth

31:59

three

32:01

there was an auction earlier this year at christie's

32:03

it was the ah resell holding collection

32:06

and there was one star of that oxen

32:08

it was a rare for me

32:10

rose enamel on guild ground

32:13

glass bottle it was from imperial

32:15

palace workshops it was

32:17

in size to the chamlong for tower

32:19

to seal mark on the base the enamel

32:22

in enamel like last production was

32:24

brought to china first by the jesuits

32:27

the declaration on this bottle it's and

32:30

flowers with this beautiful

32:32

scrolling designs flowing up than

32:34

sides in the neck the workmanship

32:36

assist in forget and sublime so

32:39

the the provenance back to the chiming

32:42

error and and the extremely fine quality

32:44

this bottle lead your final sale

32:46

price at the auction of a little more

32:48

than six hundred and eighty thousand dollars

32:51

which is a staggering sum of money for a

32:54

two and a half inch tall luck

32:57

buddy , as bad stephen says

33:00

he captured realism and miniature you're

33:02

a h just that the meaning of

33:04

it and the in the provenance of it was exquisite

33:07

there was another bottle at that oxen well

33:09

which i liked i liked looking at it it was a basket

33:11

we bottle crystal was actually owned

33:13

by mr stevens and his collection at

33:15

one point and the

33:18

estimate of that bottle though with only two

33:20

to three thousand dollars so obviously we're

33:22

talking you know factors

33:24

different from the enamel bottle well

33:26

that ball sold for just under ten thousand dollars

33:28

and well over well

33:31

over it

33:32

estimate the

33:34

other bottle i mention that sold for six hundred and eighty thousand

33:37

it's estimate was forty six hundred thousand so

33:39

it was over it's estimate but yeah

33:42

a little bit closer percentage wise

33:46

so it's when you get those provinces

33:48

and you can get something that is

33:51

just so beautiful and

33:53

beautiful and it's been painted or carved

33:55

or maintains the of does it still

33:57

is still imperfect conditions it's

34:00

like a mint comic or a mint baseball card

34:02

something that you know through the through

34:04

time has been saved and savored

34:06

and honored and is still there is

34:09

still there in great shape and so some of these

34:11

bottles big , older ones

34:14

sulfur extravagant amounts of money

34:17

can they be traced back to a

34:19

specific emperor like is there

34:21

are there any bottles with like was this one

34:23

actually was used

34:25

by say the chamlong emperor

34:27

it is court or just to the time period

34:30

i'm not familiar with anything yeah specific

34:33

you can you can tie them to the rain the

34:35

ching dynasty yeah i kept

34:38

immaculate records extensive records

34:40

of everything and and a nice this

34:42

first historical archives that i cited

34:44

before in other areas they

34:46

they have really good records of

34:48

what was done where when and why

34:52

in a might have been done for the chamlong emperor or

34:54

the young john emperor or dog longer whomever

34:57

but i'm not familiar with any where they can say you

34:59

know what that was simmons

35:01

bottle that he carried on am i mean if it was

35:04

forget the auction estimates have vastly

35:07

tie a bottle of , he

35:09

actually held in his hand that's got

35:11

his palm harbor not and then then

35:13

would be something something you need

35:16

the i never use now i never met anyone

35:18

that use it anyone that i know people that

35:21

you smokeless tobacco buddies snuff

35:23

in how it was use back in the eighteenth

35:25

nineteenth century is it still around

35:27

today can you still get it at some

35:29

high end tobacconist or something

35:32

like that

35:33

i assume so i don't totally

35:35

know or but i was soon you probably

35:37

can because you

35:40

know he did you can usually get almost anything

35:42

these days the snow

35:44

for you in a snuff bottle

35:46

you could get several days supply of snuff

35:49

in there cause your you would use it several times a day

35:51

probably if you are really using it's but

35:53

a friend told me recently that

35:56

one of those little tiny spoon pinches

35:58

a snuff that would come this not bottle had

36:01

ten times the nicotine that

36:03

it in a modern day cigarette and

36:06

yeah you think about the health issues the

36:09

it would be staggering now

36:12

i think one of the things that may be mitigated

36:14

in a bad way against

36:16

the worst or effects of snuff

36:18

in the nineteenth century china is

36:21

opium

36:22

and yet a much bigger problem

36:25

in addiction than than you would

36:27

have had just necessarily was snuff but

36:30

, is there was still there

36:33

while the potency attend siggy

36:35

is and get my head rush just thinking about that

36:38

in in the sneezing and the russian the

36:40

cleansing of the body was one of those

36:42

medicinal purposes that they they

36:44

look to snuff for

36:46

i guess so so tell me about this organization

36:48

that you belong to the international snuff

36:51

bottles society who are

36:53

these guys were they based in

36:55

tell me about this organization

36:57

the

36:58

the international shiny snuff bottle society

37:01

have to says when the most amazing organizations

37:04

have ever been involved with and

37:07

it was formed back in the late sixties

37:09

by groups of

37:11

snuff bottle collectors and

37:14

, were grew large groups on

37:16

the east and west coast of america at

37:18

that time in elsewhere through the world but

37:21

they form disorganization they

37:23

started producing a

37:26

they , doing a quarterly journal at that point

37:28

with articles and it's it's last

37:30

many years has been a the journalists and three

37:33

times a times they start having

37:35

annual convention so they would so together

37:37

in different parts of the world i initially

37:40

in america but then they also done many abroad

37:43

and there we get together for conferences

37:46

and what i

37:48

was so amazing about the organization

37:50

is is for me is

37:52

the friendships and the camaraderie and

37:54

the the knowledge

37:57

the scholarship that is not only in the journals

38:00

also who people who like an email with

38:02

questions and and actually have

38:04

i have to thank you laszlo you

38:06

actually helped me learn something today

38:08

about my very first snuff bottle they

38:11

told you i bought this bottle in in i didn't

38:13

know much about it and maybe

38:16

i should be embarrassed to say until this morning didn't

38:19

still be know a lot about it but when i was

38:22

reading an old journal article

38:24

from two thousand two thousand this morning about snuff

38:26

bottled this is the talk about

38:28

my bottle they didn't realize it

38:30

it but then i did he ,

38:33

about it was an article discussing mirrors

38:35

in chinese history and how mirrors

38:37

are a sign of the sacred

38:40

they reflect reality they can protect

38:42

you against demons and bad spirits

38:45

and and how insets of

38:47

thousands years the chinese have had nurse

38:50

and very often they had dragons adorning they

38:52

mirrors as adorning as as further

38:54

symbol of further magical in the mystical this

38:57

article i was reading thanks to you prompting

38:59

needed dig into my archives talked

39:02

about how mirrors

39:04

were simulated on metal snuff

39:06

bottles and so if you have a bottle

39:09

which has either round or smooth

39:11

sides which my first

39:13

bottle does and if you have

39:15

dragons facing each other

39:17

crawling up the sides towards the neck

39:20

which my bottle does it

39:22

, a bottle valve was designed

39:25

to offer protection

39:28

to ward off demons and to

39:31

have , from miracles

39:34

that the dragons bring and so that's

39:36

my bottle and i

39:38

now know that i'm so i'm so excited

39:40

to learn that this morning

39:42

there was a great feeling that's great

39:44

so for anyone

39:46

who might be entrusted to start collecting

39:48

snuff bottles

39:49

where where can they began to did you

39:52

know if someone doesn't they have the financial

39:54

wherewithal to participate in the next christie's

39:57

auction weird as one star

39:59

when i if you want to to

40:02

get to look into snuff bottles as

40:04

a as a collection as something

40:06

more serious i'm i the

40:09

place i would send first is

40:11

the snuff bottles society's website snuff

40:14

bottles society dot org there are

40:16

information about snuff bottles there there

40:19

are there's a page that lists dealers

40:21

there's also a page lists auctioneer's an auction houses

40:24

the dealers page you can you want reputable

40:26

eighty m you can buy bottles

40:28

on ebay you can buy bottles on etsy

40:31

i'm i did in years

40:33

past i bought a number of monday or many

40:35

of them probably shouldn't be in my collection but

40:38

several way back when work

40:40

the thing you have to be really careful about on

40:43

ebay or etsy if something is whenever someone

40:45

says antique vintage

40:49

original eighteenth century handmade

40:52

be very very ninety

40:54

nine times out of one hundred that's not

40:56

if not more that's not what you're getting

40:59

however

41:00

i'm a firm believer in collecting

41:02

what you like and if there's a bottle

41:04

that you see that you like you enjoy

41:06

it you the way it looks the way it feels maybe

41:09

learn a little bit about the meaning

41:11

the by

41:12

maybe a piglet the price point is

41:14

reasonable because if you're collecting something

41:16

you want to enjoy i i i don't look

41:18

at and does collecting

41:20

as an investment i look at it is something that

41:23

you enjoy doing that brings you pleasure looping

41:26

said yo

41:28

i'm very much into now trying

41:30

to learn more about bottles and trying to study

41:32

them i'm writing about them on talking about them

41:34

and so going to places

41:37

like to snuff ball society that they they've got

41:40

the years of

41:42

articles in these journals that

41:44

just it's it's amazing this explorations

41:47

and analyses and research it's just unbelievable

41:49

what is there that you have access to

41:51

an it's all digitized

41:53

members can not only get the books but you can also

41:56

see it online and so

41:58

i that's what

41:59

where i would start you can also though you're

42:02

chinatown i found is not

42:04

bottle in an antique store recently and

42:08

if it's meant to look like it's really

42:10

all i know it's not but it was beautiful

42:13

as , porcelain bottle in a gourd shape i

42:15

and i bought it it was reasonable reasonable

42:18

there's always to get into the

42:20

snuff bottles hobby

42:22

well i sure feel a lot smarter than i did

42:24

when i woke up this morning though

42:27

mr andrews singer i'm so happy

42:30

to have met you and for you're agreeing to come

42:32

on the chp this was truly

42:35

a pleasure and informative to boats

42:37

so i know the next annual

42:39

meeting of the international

42:41

chinese snuff bottle societies october

42:44

twenty five to twenty nine

42:46

where's it going to be held in

42:48

are you going and or have you ever been to one

42:51

where those things like

42:52

the conventions going to be in san francisco

42:54

this year it is the fourth time

42:57

since nineteen sixty nine that it'll be held

42:59

in san francisco i

43:01

am absolutely going and going

43:03

and my second it will be my second convention

43:05

i went to minneapolis in

43:08

two thousand and eighteen which is the last in

43:10

person convention before

43:12

kobe we've had to have them on online

43:15

virtually last couple years so we're

43:17

all very excited about getting back there

43:19

and he'll be my second like a

43:21

said and i'm looking forward to meeting

43:23

friends and to him each

43:26

convention they have it's four days

43:28

there are lectures their a museum

43:31

tours there are exhibitions of

43:33

private snuff bottle collections

43:36

is , gala dinner in an auction as a dealer's

43:38

rome where you can look at all sorts of bottles or

43:40

it's just a great time to

43:43

get together with people who love the same

43:45

thing you do i have a lot of friends now

43:47

in the society com the

43:49

next year's convention is going to lisbon

43:51

oh wow them next year i'm gonna

43:54

gonna my first trip to portugal by

43:56

attending the cock convention so a

43:58

they just wonderful then i'm

44:01

glad i could go to my second one now in person

44:04

their been people who have been going to them for decades

44:07

baber been held in china

44:09

yes they have they been held in

44:11

china and aging see

44:13

on the been in hong kong

44:17

who years ago we were supposed

44:19

to be in taiwan or but again that was

44:21

coded that that interrupted

44:23

that's so yes they have been in asia

44:27

one of the great things about the society and we've been doing

44:30

let's assume meetings obviously over the last three

44:32

years is where

44:34

are the collectors a spread out your

44:37

there are many people in north america

44:39

in canada in the united states but

44:42

they are spread all over europe

44:45

asia

44:45

the middle east and mean when i'm on when

44:48

i'm on zoom calls or even at the convention in

44:50

minneapolis i met people from hong

44:52

kong from china from

44:54

from beijing from israel

44:56

thailand scotland norway

44:59

i mean there were here in north america there

45:02

, just people from all

45:04

over the world and there are some very knowledgeable

45:06

people who knowledgeable people collectors who

45:09

who are very generous with the time and sharing

45:11

the on their knowledge with me like yourself

45:14

what lc up to and the exciting

45:16

world of chinese culture chinese know you do

45:19

a lot of speaking and writing

45:21

will you have in the harper

45:23

i write a twice

45:26

a month newsletter on sub stack

45:28

called , singer talks about china it

45:32

looks into chinese and chinese

45:34

american topics around history our

45:37

culture current events and

45:39

, something i'm i'm to

45:41

be writing regularly i

45:44

just finished a journal

45:46

article on the scope

45:48

of chinese history which history slated

45:50

to be published early next year

45:53

as he said i've been there writing and

45:55

speaking on is also

45:57

the topics that deal with chinese culture

46:00

history from ,

46:02

trade various aspects of snuff bottles

46:05

and i'm looking for this continuing

46:07

that and that's what i'm doing with my writing and

46:09

speaking in the opportunities

46:11

like to data to come under your wonderful podcast

46:13

into

46:15

what we share a little bit about my love of snuff bottles with

46:17

everybody well let's

46:20

just leave it at that olive links dot

46:22

everything we discussed tucked away in the show

46:24

notes accompanying this episode

46:27

he always bessie out

46:28

andrew singer thanks once

46:31

again for coming on this was

46:33

really informative thank

46:35

you so much last i appreciate this

46:38

is lazlo montgomery signing off from blisteringly

46:40

hard los angeles california

46:43

you think about come back again next time

46:46

for another exciting episode that china

46:48

history podcast