0:14

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0:17

weekly talk show about mom and

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fly.io. Okay, let's

0:33

talk. Yes,

0:39

let's talk about our friends over at

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0:50

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0:54

I don't want to say they're evil, but they're

0:57

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0:59

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1:01

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1:03

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1:07

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1:11

that's that's really good. Actually, this is

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this is a consistent problem for us

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and teams is that covering these sorts

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like overrides and specific days and

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different new shifts is quite

1:26

onerous. You did the most

1:28

important piece, which is didn't tie them together.

1:31

Because that's half the problem with pager duty,

1:33

right is I get all

1:35

these alerts and then I get an

1:37

incident per alert. And generally speaking, when

1:39

you go sideways, you get lots of

1:42

alerts because lots of things are broken.

1:44

But you only have one incident. Yeah,

1:47

I'm super impressed with that because being

1:49

able to assign to different teams is

1:51

an issue for us because like

1:53

the one the one alert fires for one team and

1:55

then it seems like to have to bounce around and

1:57

it never does, which then. that

2:00

we have tons of communication issues because

2:02

like people aren't updated. No, I mean,

2:05

to be open and honest, when can

2:07

we switch? But. So

2:10

you're probably tired of alerting tools that feel

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at firehydrant.com/signals

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again, firehydrant.com/

3:07

signals. So

3:12

we're here with Parker and Shannon.

3:14

This is our BOGO episode. Buy

3:16

one, get one. So we

3:18

have Parker here with us, but this is not

3:21

just Soarin' One, this is Soarin' Two. We

3:23

got both Parker and Shannon. They are teammates

3:25

in multiple respects. And

3:28

how many ways are you two teammates? Should

3:30

we just start counting? What? Let

3:33

me count the ways. Business partners.

3:35

One. Spouses. Two. We

3:38

made children together. Ooh. Okay. Multiple

3:40

times. I don't know if that's more than

3:43

one. Keep it clean.

3:45

Yeah. So I guess that's two

3:47

and a half. She's anticipating four. You gotta have four.

3:49

She has her fourth finger up. She can pitch in

3:51

a fourth if you have an idea. Hey,

3:54

teamwork on this question. That's a fourth.

3:56

Podcasters together? He

3:58

does insist upon that. Yeah, he

4:02

does a friend I would say he's

4:04

a very good friend to have There's

4:06

my best friend as well Depends

4:10

on me heavily for comedic effect

4:13

Yeah, Parker sets him up and Shannon knocks him down. That's

4:15

what we're gonna expect from here on out That's a that's

4:18

a high bar. She's not the big. Yeah,

4:20

that's an order that I cannot maintain

4:23

You'll be fine. Well, this is change

4:25

login friends. We're hanging out Parker we've known

4:28

for a while because you are the creator

4:31

maintainer purveyor of Oban

4:34

the background job Processing library

4:36

for Eliccer, which we are users of

4:39

and you have Oban Pro Which

4:42

you've been having worked on for a

4:44

while now. I had you on I

4:46

think backstage It was just you and I don't think Adam

4:48

was there a couple years ago talking about Oban

4:51

Pro and your desire to go full-time

4:53

Oban or retire via Oban I can't

4:55

remember what it was but there was

4:57

a freedom number involved I think

4:59

you still had it is that because you still had a

5:01

day job help me jog my memory here About

5:03

your status back when we had you on the show.

5:05

Yeah, I mean your memory is correct about all those

5:07

things I think it was probably a year and a

5:09

half ago. It was just you and I yes We

5:13

were talking about Oban and pro we did

5:16

talk about some freedom numbers the ultimate

5:18

goal We call it our retirement project.

5:21

I still do have a day job with D

5:23

Scout Oh you do for a variety

5:25

of reasons one Okay, just kind of

5:27

I've been there for a long time

5:29

and have a responsibility to the the

5:32

founder Who's a good friend and longtime?

5:35

Coworker and then also it's

5:37

such a huge user of Oban and

5:39

pro that pushes it that I just

5:42

have daily insight

5:44

into exactly where people feel

5:46

pain points and What

5:49

what people need so yeah, it's

5:51

still going makes sense. So

5:54

what is the the what is the retirement situation? What is

5:56

this, you know the freedom number? What

5:58

is this? I think it's a root That's what

6:00

I mean. Okay, no more. Because

6:04

I don't think he would ever

6:06

want to be free, really. I

6:10

think the definition of freedom is important here. What

6:12

is freedom? Right. Okay. Passion,

6:14

the project, open

6:17

is in every aspect of

6:20

our life. I mean, it's

6:22

at every dinner, it's drawings

6:24

on the shower, it's in

6:27

every aspect of our life. We

6:30

work on it, and I don't think I realize

6:32

that until we leave our little bubble and we're

6:34

around other people. And

6:37

we get this mirror image of what

6:39

we're doing all the time and how

6:42

often we go back to it. I

6:44

don't think I'm aware of it until we're around other people outside

6:46

of our bubble. So you're with your friends, they're like,

6:48

why are you talking about Oben? I thought it would

6:50

be hilarious. You know, when you

6:52

do this what if in your mind, I

6:54

thought it would be hilarious for most developers

6:56

to create this video of

7:00

our kids trying to explain to our neighbors or to

7:02

anybody else what it is that we do and get

7:04

them a whiteboard and have them try to draw it

7:06

or have them try to describe what it is that

7:08

we do. Just

7:13

somebody else who sees us all the time

7:15

communicating what it is they think we're doing

7:17

all the time. It doesn't

7:19

have to be kids, it can just be me trying to

7:21

explain to people what we do. Right. Because

7:24

I do a terrible job. I think you do a great job. I

7:26

don't even bail out. He gets so deep so quickly. I

7:29

take the opposite stance. I try to stay

7:31

as high level as possible. So my old

7:33

line was I make websites and that worked

7:35

pretty well. People are like, okay, because

7:37

they understand websites, you make websites, we're done here.

7:41

And then I got to

7:43

write other stuff and so I changed it to I

7:45

write software or I'm in software. And that

7:48

was pretty much people are done

7:50

with you at that point. They're like, okay, that's

7:52

nice Jared, let's move on. Now it's

7:55

weirder actually I podcast about software

7:58

and they're like, you what now? because those

8:00

are two things that are foreign to me. It

8:04

usually opens up a bigger question. They don't want

8:06

to ask about the software, but they do want

8:08

to ask about the podcasting for some reason that's

8:10

interesting to people, but also sometimes harder to explain

8:13

how it all works. It is. You've

8:15

got a meta situation too, because you write software

8:17

to make it easier for you to publish your

8:19

podcast about writing software. Yeah, exactly, which I never

8:21

go there. Like I can go there with you

8:23

guys. It's a Russian doll. It's

8:25

just a Russian doll situation. For sure. Even

8:28

telling people what changelog means that do not

8:30

understand software, it's like, well, they're like, that's

8:33

kind of a weird name. But in our

8:35

world, it's like, that's kind of a perfect name. But

8:37

they're like, what is the changelog? What

8:39

is changelog? What is that? And

8:42

I'm like, oh, well that's, then I have

8:44

to explain what a changelog is. And it's like, well, this

8:46

is the difference between one version and another. It's how people

8:48

communicate. You know, what those changes are.

8:50

Is it like your podcast is a changelog? I'm

8:53

like, well, if you were in the world, you would understand how

8:55

on point the name is and how perfect it

8:57

is. And fortunately,

8:59

in this moment, you're not. And so therefore, we'd be really

9:01

impressed with our name if you were in this world. Well, then

9:03

it's like you're explaining a joke and you can never explain it.

9:05

Yeah, for sure. Once you start explaining

9:07

it, it's over. It goes wrong really bad.

9:09

So, Obon has discussed a lot

9:11

at your dinner table. Or just,

9:14

I guess, generally everywhere where you're at. Right?

9:16

Like it's, how so? Like is, I don't

9:19

want to say this pejoratively or as a

9:21

pejorative, but like, it's just background jobs. Like

9:23

how much can it be in your conversation?

9:26

It's a death tool. Sorry

9:28

about that. I had to do it. No, no, no. That

9:31

makes, if you phrase it like that, I think

9:33

it makes perfect sense. But it's

9:35

not just our background jobs. It's a lot

9:37

of other people's background jobs. And

9:40

because there's an open source version and then

9:42

there's a paid version and the paid version

9:44

comes with support. Although, quite

9:47

honestly, we're not great about just

9:49

leaving people who don't pay for support to the

9:51

wolves. It means that there's just

9:53

a lot of helping other people with their

9:56

problems with background jobs. And

9:58

invariably when you build a tool. which

10:01

can be pretty complex. You can't predict all the ways

10:03

that people are going to use things, or the environments

10:05

they're going to use the things in. You

10:08

can't test in all those environments and you

10:10

put all those together and it can be

10:12

pretty deep for debugging or just

10:14

support. And so you kind of get to know people.

10:17

Some people come back more, they just have

10:19

bigger issues or they're just a little chattier

10:21

about the issues. And so

10:23

it's not always that we're talking about

10:25

Oben as much as the people

10:28

around it. It's

10:30

exciting when you have a new customer that

10:34

you've used their product in

10:37

the physical world and you see their name

10:39

come up that suddenly they're now a customer.

10:42

That will spark a conversation. Being

10:45

responsive to our customers and

10:47

having them give feedback

10:49

and accolades will lead us to

10:51

another conversation. It takes very

10:53

little, we take the bait. Yeah, I think what's

10:56

really important here is the partnership and

10:58

the opportunity. Because I

11:00

don't know how you are, Jerry, with your work

11:02

and your wife, and I know how it is

11:04

with my wife, she's not deeply involved in

11:07

our day-to-day. And so we're less partner

11:09

in the things we do day-to-day. However,

11:12

she's obviously deeply invested because hey, we're husband and

11:14

wife and the same for you and your wife.

11:17

But you all are working directly together

11:19

on the output, on the effects, you're

11:21

sharing in the ups and the downs,

11:24

which makes the journey, regardless of its

11:26

up or down, just

11:28

a bit more fun and a bit more supportive,

11:31

I suppose. You don't feel like you're

11:33

falling solo, you're falling together or rising

11:35

together, which to me is kind of

11:37

a beautiful thing. It stands out

11:39

where an incident could

11:41

very easily become an incident though,

11:43

if you're not careful. And that

11:45

same, I agree with you

11:47

and the positive is there. I thought it was poetic,

11:49

I like it. It is poetic and I

11:52

embrace that, but I hate to give somebody

11:54

the whole pie in the sky without the

11:56

reality of the patience it

11:58

takes to restrain. yourself

12:00

when your partner is

12:03

refactoring something or has

12:05

critique of you in a

12:07

response and the

12:10

familiarity leads you to a

12:12

dark place. You have to be patient. You

12:15

just have to be extremely patient

12:17

because a work incident, right? An

12:19

incident with a customer or with

12:21

code. It could become a personal

12:23

incident in a matter of seconds.

12:26

So it's just that restraint. Well,

12:28

that's where love and respect comes into play, right?

12:32

As partners, I think even for my wife and I'm

12:34

sure Jared, you're the same because we're kinder

12:36

spirits in a lot of ways. It has

12:39

to begin with love and respect, right? And

12:41

if you're formed there with goodwill, like I have

12:43

goodwill for you in the formation of the partnership

12:46

at the friend level, then the husband

12:48

and wife level, and then the kids level, and

12:50

then the business level. Like if all those things

12:52

are foundation on love and respect, I

12:54

think even those incidents are a little

12:56

easier to deal with because you do

12:58

the 10 second rule. Hey, I'm upset right now. I'm going

13:01

to pause. I'm going to count to 10. I

13:03

might even go away and count to 100 if I

13:05

have. It's really a big incident, but

13:08

love and respect sort of gives certain contracts,

13:10

I suppose, into place because of the

13:13

foundation of love and respect. And I'm

13:15

assuming that. That's my foundation with my

13:17

wife. So I'm just sort of like

13:20

assuming that for you all and giving it to you if you don't have it. No,

13:22

I think we do have it. I think

13:24

it's a good assumption. Yes, we spend

13:27

a tremendous amount of time together,

13:29

possibly a disturbing amount to

13:31

some couples like we

13:34

were doing it before COVID before people

13:38

so frequently worked from home. But

13:40

not only are we working in the same space and living in

13:42

the same space and then raising kids in the same space, but

13:45

working on the same things in the same space.

13:48

And you have to have a tremendous amount

13:50

of respect. Yeah, it makes sense to

13:52

me how you got there on the other dimensions,

13:54

but on the work dimension on the business. How

13:57

did you end up here? Were you already

14:00

been? business partners and this was the opportunity?

14:02

Did Shannon start it and Parker hopped on vice versa?

14:05

Like how did it end up to be this

14:07

partnership around this project? I

14:10

had been consulting originally and

14:12

started my own

14:14

business and wanted Parker to consult

14:16

with me. He had

14:19

been working at a design firm. And

14:21

with the birth of our second child,

14:23

we decided we were

14:26

going to take

14:28

the leap and do it

14:30

together. We had tried to explore

14:32

some other app ideas and

14:36

had made it to a

14:38

very shallow level, especially with

14:40

something like snow and

14:42

things like that. And it just didn't really

14:44

take off. We wanted a passion

14:47

project. We both started

14:49

with Ruby and Rails and

14:51

Parker really made

14:54

the brilliant choice to move to

14:56

Elixir. And I think

14:59

he has led us there.

15:01

So I may have started it, but

15:04

he's led us to where we

15:06

are in a wonderful way. And you had

15:08

a proven guinea pig, so

15:10

to speak, with Mike Parham and Sidekick

15:13

Pro in the Ruby world, in the Rails

15:15

world, much success, very

15:18

much similar project, similar structure. That had

15:20

to feel good to say, okay, here

15:23

I am in a different place with

15:26

different tools, probably some of

15:28

the same people who remember Sidekick, like me,

15:30

for instance. So there's an

15:32

analog that I can draw pretty easily to

15:34

Sidekick. Although in Elixir

15:36

land, background jobs are less necessary. The

15:38

kind of background jobs that you provide

15:40

are less necessary for people just getting

15:42

started. And then I think eventually you

15:44

kind of do grow into wanting

15:46

the persistence and a lot of the scheduling and the

15:48

tooling that you provide. But I

15:51

went a long time without having any background solution

15:53

on our application. Probably three or four

15:55

years, I had to look back and see exactly when

15:57

I pulled Oban in the first time. But

16:00

Besides that, you did have rails

16:02

to run on to a certain extent. Did

16:05

that give you confidence? Were you basically saying,

16:07

I'm going to take Mike Perum's playbook and

16:09

apply it in this ecosystem? I mean, no

16:11

shame in doing that, by the way. That's

16:14

a good way to do things. Was that part

16:16

of your playbook? That was definitely part of the

16:18

playbook. I do have history.

16:21

I'm not going to say Mike's my friend, but I do have

16:23

history in the past of collaborating with him and

16:26

sharing some work with him and writing

16:29

a tremendous amount about Redis

16:31

and Sidekick and

16:33

helping former contracting clients onboard

16:35

the enterprise and pros. I

16:37

was deeply familiar with both

16:40

the business and the code

16:42

and all the features and

16:44

saw it as such a

16:46

great way to have

16:48

a technical project that is a developer

16:51

tool. So you're selling to developers, but

16:53

also to something, you know, scratching your own

16:56

itch where you understand deeply

16:58

exactly what problems you have. But

17:00

you're right. In many

17:02

ways, it's not as necessary in

17:05

Elixir. You can get away without it for a

17:07

while and until you understand

17:09

that you have certain guarantees that you want to

17:11

hit of, I'm not ever

17:13

going to lose this thing. So the concurrency

17:15

story in Elixir compared to the concurrency story

17:17

in Ruby are vastly different. It's

17:20

unbelievably easy to do certain

17:22

things in Elixir that

17:25

would be tremendously difficult, if not impossible

17:27

to do in Ruby. And so that's

17:29

part of like the springboard for open

17:32

has a lot, I think, deeper features than

17:35

much of what even psychic enterprise still has.

17:38

Um, and that's purely because of what Elixir makes

17:40

possible. But I will say one

17:42

other thing is that I remember after

17:44

somebody added open to the change log

17:46

code base before that you guys were

17:48

using quantum for cron. And

17:50

so in a way you were using a psychic

17:53

pro kind of feature, but

17:56

with a different project there. Yeah,

17:58

we needed scheduled jobs. Yeah, and

18:01

I reach for quantum for that. But

18:03

in terms of running emails and stuff

18:06

like that, like the kind of stuff that you would

18:08

immediately in Ruby on Rails land, you would reach for

18:10

a sidekick pretty much immediately as soon

18:12

as you wanted to send an email

18:15

in the background without blocking. With

18:18

Elixir, even our stats processing, like a lot of the

18:20

stuff that we do in the background using Obon today,

18:22

which we can look at all the things, I

18:25

was just doing that with straight up Elixir and the Beam

18:28

and all those fancy tools. And

18:30

it's not fancy. Like it was easy for me to do that.

18:33

But once we wanted scheduling and

18:36

then retries, even

18:38

just visibility into – once your background

18:40

jobs really matter, then it was like,

18:42

yeah, we want something that's going to

18:44

provide more than the built-in. But

18:47

like I said, we lasted probably three or four years without

18:49

it and probably been on it

18:51

for three or four years, something like that. Yeah,

18:53

and I think when you were starting Obon didn't exist, so you

18:55

couldn't even use that if you wanted. It

18:57

would have possibly been something else. Yeah, there's

19:00

a lot of stuff that didn't exist, and so

19:02

I hand rolled a lot of solutions which are still in

19:04

our code base today. We get questions sometimes like, why did

19:06

you do that this way? This seems really convoluted. I'm like

19:08

– because that was just how I figured

19:10

it out in 2016. There

19:14

just wasn't – Phoenix didn't provide a way of doing that

19:16

or there was no best practice

19:18

style library that everybody uses. I'm

19:21

thinking of CSRF stuff and a

19:24

lot of the things around Turbo Links and

19:26

just cookies and junk like

19:28

that where you're just doing it yourself. You're just hand

19:30

rolling it off. I think I hand

19:32

rolled some off stuff because it was

19:35

just the early days. So

19:37

don't necessarily go look at shanesaw.com code base

19:39

for how to do things today, but even

19:41

context. Phoenix really

19:44

promotes the idea of context now, and

19:47

I just ignored them altogether. So

19:49

I tried to introduce context

19:52

as the feature came out because the

19:54

Phoenix team was really big on it and the ecosystem was

19:57

big on it. I just felt

19:59

like for our app, we're going to do it. application, it just felt like

20:02

another layer of abstraction that I didn't necessarily need. And

20:04

so I just ignored it, which I love that about

20:06

elixirs. You can just ignore the stuff and

20:08

about Phoenix the way it's built. And you

20:10

just don't have to use it. I mean, sir, it's

20:12

the idiom. You're going to look less like a Phoenix

20:15

app by doing so. But

20:17

you can just ignore it and do things your way. And

20:20

so I've continued to do that,

20:22

and I think that most modern Phoenix

20:24

apps wouldn't look like ours, at

20:26

least for that reason, and Live View. Yeah,

20:29

plus Live View. Yeah, we,

20:31

for our web, for open web for

20:33

the development, we have like a single

20:35

file script that's essentially an

20:37

entire Phoenix application in one file

20:40

that also generates random jobs and all this different timing,

20:42

the kind of stuff that we have on our demo.

20:46

So that when you're working on it locally, you

20:48

have some reasonable amount of job traffic and errors

20:50

and cancellation. But that fits in exactly

20:53

one file. It's not like it's an

20:55

entire full-blown, scaffolded

20:57

Phoenix app. It's just the bare-bones things. And

20:59

as long as you configure it right, and

21:02

the modules are there, it all just works.

21:05

So it's easy in

21:07

that way, once you understand what the parts are. Right.

21:09

Well, that was one thing that attracted me to Phoenix in

21:11

the first place was how simple

21:13

it was relative to Rails in

21:16

terms of – for me, it was the stack

21:18

traces when I threw an error on the

21:20

page was the stack traces were

21:22

tiny. Like you know how in Rails – probably

21:24

to this day. I haven't done Rails in a

21:26

long time. But it's like here's your application code

21:28

trace, and then here's the framework trace. And

21:31

this one collapsed by default because you don't want to look

21:33

at that one. And it's the same

21:35

way in Phoenix, but when you go and

21:37

like expand the framework trace, at least back

21:39

in the early days, it was like eight function

21:41

calls. I mean it was nothing. Like my code

21:43

was there, and there's – you could see the

21:45

entire pipeline of function calls. And it was like

21:47

12 function calls. And

21:50

I was like, wow, this is something I can

21:52

actually reason about relatively easily. Now it's probably a

21:54

little more deeper than that now. You guys

21:56

probably know better than we do – better than

21:58

I do perhaps. I like

22:00

that it was just it was grokable like you

22:02

can you can see all of phoenix and there's

22:05

nothing hidden from you. I know

22:07

it's a little unorthodox but did phoenix bring

22:09

you to elixir then because that would be

22:11

pretty much i mean chris mccord basically brought

22:13

me to elixir in

22:16

that way yes we had chris on the show

22:18

before we had jose on the show we're just

22:20

reminiscing. I wish i was a few weeks

22:22

back about this because i've been

22:24

a web developer pretty much my whole

22:26

career and rails for many years and

22:30

chris had a very similar story to mine but then he

22:32

found elixir and he built phoenix and he came on the

22:34

show. And he talked about

22:36

how cool it all was and i went and

22:38

tried it tried phoenix specifically and

22:41

got this little application up and

22:43

running in like couple hours and

22:45

deployed as well which

22:47

was just a simple like one endpoint. Call

22:50

slack api do a thing it was like our

22:52

old slack inviter before we had a full system

22:55

and that was just so fun and easy and it

22:57

looked somewhat like ruby and turns

22:59

out it's nothing like ruby but

23:01

has this like facade of ruby esque taste

23:03

maybe has a ruby taste to it. It's

23:05

got a slight syntax to it yeah exactly

23:07

there's a flavor there veneer and i was

23:10

like oh this is this is

23:12

pretty cool so it just proved itself. Relatively

23:14

quickly and back then i was

23:16

a full time contractor part time change log or

23:19

even just maybe nights and weekends change log back

23:21

then not nights and weekends

23:23

technically but just spiritually. Because i

23:25

was a independent business owner so i could

23:27

work on it when i wanted to so

23:30

be during the day times but it was

23:32

a hobby for me i think adam had gone

23:35

full time by then twenty fifteen was your full time.

23:37

I'm looking at the data we record that it was march

23:40

20th 2015 with the record and shipped

23:42

it which means it's probably around the

23:44

same week span because this is prior

23:47

to us having separate date fields in

23:49

our cms for those things this is

23:51

published probably. The

23:53

old way prior to the cms and the cms

23:56

is the application we're talking about it had to

23:58

be the old way yeah i'm still entitled. Is

24:00

that the old way you're hammering it out

24:02

basically? Yeah, well, I don't think I went

24:04

I think I went full-time around that time

24:06

I think it was like February 2015. So

24:09

like this was like literally When

24:11

we were courageous enough to say Adam quit

24:13

your day job and make this thing your

24:15

thing And so I guess

24:17

we're coming up I guess next year would be 10 years

24:20

of being full-time on this thing.

24:23

Well, that's a great anniversary We

24:25

celebrated our five-year. Yeah recently Congratulations

24:29

big for us people but no

24:32

Which contact come on? All right.

24:34

Well dual anniversaries here Yeah,

24:37

do a little bit for the oven come

24:39

contact I think that would be a dream

24:41

to have people choose elixir in the way

24:43

that People love Phoenix. I'm

24:45

not going to say that that would ever happen But

24:47

that would be a dream that people

24:50

would come to elixir wanting

24:52

to use You

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28:15

We understand our niche pretty well.

28:17

We can clarify the market all we

28:19

want for us unless we have more

28:21

people, more

28:24

elixir users, we'll max out

28:26

at some point. That's just the reality

28:29

of such a elixir

28:31

is just an amazing thing. Right? But

28:33

it's a niche. Yeah, but it's a niche. So we

28:36

have to we've discussed recently doing

28:38

something to just try to widen

28:40

that pool and bring more people to it. Yeah,

28:43

I think that's interesting because I think it's,

28:46

it's not only a niche. It's a successful

28:48

niche, first of all, but it's also a

28:50

mature niche at this point. I mean, it's

28:53

a pretty mature language

28:55

and mature ecosystem. And

28:58

I think there can be new tools that bring

29:00

people in. I think NURBS probably brings people in.

29:02

I think Live View itself and a lot of

29:04

the stuff that Phoenix is doing is cutting

29:06

edge and now you have what's

29:09

Chris doing at fly with the

29:11

serverless stuff. Flame. Flame. Like he's

29:13

still pushing, pushing

29:15

on the edges, which does bring

29:17

interesting or interested people in.

29:19

But that being said, I think

29:21

elixir in a certain sense, and you guys

29:23

can disagree Adam, maybe you have a different

29:26

viewpoint has kind of found an audience. And

29:29

so I think it's kind of like at the top

29:31

end of the S curve of adoption, perhaps. Unless there's,

29:33

unless ML changes that I mean, it has great ML

29:36

tooling. Josay has been investing in that. But,

29:39

you know, most people are using Python

29:42

and newer things, Rust and

29:44

Go. And so I'm wondering

29:46

if like, you know, if the

29:48

elixir ecosystem has a lot of room to grow or

29:50

just some room to grow at this point, because it's

29:52

pretty mature. What do you guys think? I think the,

29:55

to rewind slightly, there's the whole notion of

29:57

like a killer app, the thing that brings

29:59

some. like this is why I bought, I

30:02

wanted VisiCalc, so I bought a Mac or

30:04

an Apple or whatever. And I think

30:06

for a long time, Phoenix has been the killer

30:08

app of Elixir. And we've had other ones, like

30:10

you mentioned, with nerves a little bit. And then

30:12

I think the ML is opening

30:15

a whole new realm of

30:18

possibilities to attract people

30:21

that would have been firmly in the

30:23

Python camp. And we sort

30:25

of dreamed that Open is also

30:27

another companion killer app, that it's

30:29

like there's enough compelling stuff

30:32

here, enough compelling features that

30:34

it's worth it to pick up and make

30:36

an Elixir app just so you can use

30:38

Open and the workflow stuff in Pro or

30:40

all that. But even more so if you

30:43

were to pair that with the ML

30:46

side. So if you look at some

30:49

popular tools in the Python side that are

30:51

like Daxter or things that

30:53

are meant to run workflows, they use

30:55

them for ETL

30:58

pipelines or complex machine

31:00

learning flows. And all those

31:02

things do decently in Python because people

31:04

have put so much time into it,

31:06

but it's not as natural a fit

31:08

as it is in Elixir. So

31:10

the vision that we

31:13

have is that it's

31:15

enough that you can have your web

31:17

app, but you can also have your web app orchestrate things

31:19

and it can do all this ML stuff. And

31:22

it's all under one blanket of

31:24

a single ecosystem. And then

31:26

you have all of the other fantastic

31:29

documentation and great packages and

31:32

really vibrant, responsive community. And you

31:34

have all of those things instead

31:36

of having to scatter your attention between

31:39

the JavaScript for some stuff

31:41

and the server side language for some stuff

31:44

and Python for the ML side. As

31:47

you described this, I'm thinking like, do you produce

31:49

any content around this attracting folks

31:52

to Elixir because of this comparative

31:54

nature to Python and how it's

31:56

good and it does it, but I didn't do it well, I'm paraphrasing

31:59

what you said there. But it sounds like you've

32:01

got a bias obviously because we

32:03

know where you live in terms of where

32:05

your camp is at. I'm

32:07

just curious like how much do you help with

32:09

the growth, not just provide the tooling? And I

32:11

don't mean that in a negative just,

32:13

but like how much are you

32:15

doing activism and outreach

32:18

and advocacy around the

32:20

depth of ability that you can

32:22

have elixir over other traditional ways

32:24

or maybe ways that are being

32:26

seen as well Python

32:28

is the easy path in some cases for those

32:31

kind of workflows for example. And

32:33

that seems to be the default

32:35

in the marketplace so to speak of

32:37

Devland and they don't consider elixir

32:40

because there's not enough awareness. Well,

32:43

should we discuss that which shall not be named? What

32:46

is it? What is it? I'm

32:48

surprised to all of us. All right, deep

32:51

breath. So I mean, I think

32:53

you'll see more content. So

32:56

to your point, maybe not

32:58

as much as we should have up until right now.

33:00

We have not. I think you

33:03

will see more content from us

33:06

supporting that and doing that. We

33:08

had researched a bit and had

33:11

decided we were going to embark on a

33:14

cross-platform kind of version of

33:17

Oban. We were putting our

33:19

toe in for Python and

33:21

I kid you not. Go

33:23

ahead. Oh yeah, it was within a matter

33:27

of time before like hatchet was things were

33:29

announced. There's been a lot of movement. It

33:31

was just a Y Combinator

33:34

effort was just launched and their marketing

33:36

is phenomenal. There's a lot of lessons

33:39

to be learned from that but

33:41

it was within weeks of us

33:44

starting to strategize

33:46

and pull together on that. And we

33:48

had had a lot of walks

33:51

and talks about how we

33:53

can really do what you

33:55

said, Adam, to really bring in our

33:58

efforts towards the Elixir community. community to

34:00

support that to, you know,

34:03

what niche can we fill within that

34:05

community? What can we develop? What's missing?

34:08

What have we wanted? We've

34:10

jotted down ideas, but

34:12

we had started exploring across platform

34:15

version of OVEN and within weeks

34:17

it was released. So I

34:20

guess it's just whether or not we're going to

34:22

put our efforts into picking a

34:24

fight. I'll say, maybe not picking a fight,

34:26

but the number one

34:29

takeaway was, well, I guess there are two

34:31

takeaways. Competition. Is that the

34:33

description of what they've built, it sounds

34:35

fantastic, but the complexity of what

34:37

they've built, you couldn't even

34:39

tout those things in a lecture. They'd be so

34:42

table stakes to do things. But

34:44

the marketing that they have around it and the

34:46

use cases they're describing are things that would work

34:49

perfectly for what we want

34:51

to build. And definitely, I think

34:54

there's, we have to do work

34:56

to try to communicate and bring people in. I'm

34:59

looking at Hatchet now and I kind of

35:01

want to preface some things because it seems

35:05

like a startup, right? Backed by

35:07

Y Cominator. Totally a startup, yes.

35:10

Is Hatchet across platform then? Is

35:12

it focused on, it's hard to

35:14

tell from their description because it

35:16

seems overarching, not, hey, we're

35:18

in Python land, come get

35:20

your Python task queues here, et

35:23

cetera. It seems very much like a

35:27

larger play than simply one language or one camp.

35:29

I think it is. I think they're

35:31

doing sort of a mic perm factory kind of

35:33

thing where there's a server that coordinates things and

35:36

then they have SDKs and various languages. What's

35:39

stopping you all from doing this? I mean, this, again,

35:42

I think Jared asked before, like, hey, did I

35:44

give you confidence because of the path of Sidekick

35:47

and Sidekick Pro when you initially started?

35:51

This to me says there's room for

35:53

a mature option,

35:56

I suppose, but then that really

35:58

depends on the, Because

36:00

this goes your whole entire

36:02

operation goes from let's just call

36:04

you mom and pop Do you mind if I clean mom?

36:07

No, we definitely refer to ourselves as

36:09

the mom and pop software shop, right?

36:11

I mean you very much are I mean, I don't

36:13

know more of your employment like if you have

36:15

other folks working with you Maybe you have temps.

36:18

I don't know Who knows? I

36:20

don't know what you have, but it seems mom

36:22

and pop it would say

36:24

okay. You've got to Graduate

36:26

to a whole new level and do you want to

36:28

be? That level

36:30

you may see the market opportunity that's going

36:33

to change your lives That's going

36:35

to change a lot for you and

36:37

sometimes I've even lamented about this with podcasting

36:40

it running an indie media companies like I

36:43

Like what we do. I like what we do as an

36:45

indie media company But at some point

36:47

the market and maybe other competition

36:50

may say that we change old media

36:52

has to become more of a in

36:54

quotes behemoth of sorts or funded

36:57

or operate differently because

37:00

competitors Compete with

37:02

us for your share market share

37:04

mind share, etc And

37:06

then so we've got to follow suit or whether

37:08

on the vine and die or just be hacked

37:10

with our little slice of pie Not

37:13

intended to rhyme that but I did so,

37:15

you know why come in here backed

37:17

hatch It seems pretty like just go into their

37:19

page. It seems Like

37:22

it's pretty strong as

37:25

a competitor or at least has the firepower of

37:27

like home here You never know really I mean

37:29

this could be a beautiful paint job.

37:31

Who knows what your thoughts on what it might

37:33

do for your evolution It is a beautiful paint

37:35

job. I think there are a lot of lessons

37:37

still it. I mean, that was a moment Right. That was a

37:39

moment last week to see that Discuss

37:42

it and I think I mean

37:45

you mentioned being an indie media

37:48

Provider I don't remember the exact phrasing

37:50

but I think that's any company an

37:52

indie media company But that's kind of

37:54

the beauty of what your company is

37:56

and I think part of

37:58

our side and

38:02

how deeply embedded in the community, the electric

38:04

community we are, is one

38:06

of the strongest assets for our company.

38:08

And I think if we were just on the outskirts and

38:11

tried to push into say, go or something

38:13

else, without that

38:16

deep history, I don't know what it

38:18

would take to get there, or

38:21

even if we would have the attention or

38:23

time to do it. We don't have any temps,

38:25

we don't have any other employees, there's nobody

38:27

else doing support when we're on

38:30

vacation or asleep or something. You know

38:32

who you're getting. We've

38:34

never contracted out for

38:36

Pro, ever. For web, yeah. Or

38:38

web. So, I

38:41

mean, I could say hi to David.

38:43

Hi David, I know you're listening. So.

38:47

For the server. For the server. So I know.

38:49

David is the name of your server? No,

38:51

David Bruhnheisel. I'm saying hi to David.

38:55

So, Leastmore is the name of our server,

38:57

and Leastmore is the island that is across

38:59

the bay of Oban. So

39:02

there's a fun play there. And that's

39:04

where we keep the people that contract,

39:06

they stay within that island. They don't.

39:09

Not like Alcatraz or? Who moved you there? On

39:11

your island. I mean, you can swim. Reminds me

39:13

of Son of Anton. Gotta do the

39:15

ding, that's the Silicon Valley joke right there. Son of

39:17

Anton was the server stack that

39:19

Gilfel stood up whenever they got blacklisted

39:21

from cloud, essentially. Gavin Bellson was like,

39:24

you can't play here anymore. They got

39:26

blacklisted from, they named Rackspace.

39:28

That's how relevant this was back then in

39:30

those days of this episode. But

39:32

Son of Anton, I love naming servers, but that was the

39:34

name of the one in Silicon Valley. That's

39:37

brilliant. I think every, all

39:39

the questions you just asked were the

39:41

questions we are asking each other in

39:43

the last few weeks. Well, what's

39:45

the answer? We have different

39:47

answers. Do we? Let's hear them

39:50

all. Let's hear all the answers. Yeah, as a

39:52

rep. Go. No,

39:54

don't really. It

39:56

must rhyme. I can see the dynamic already playing out the

39:58

answer to rap. response and

40:00

go. That was cool. And

40:03

I took my three fingers and put them

40:05

in the middle of my forehead to just

40:08

try to express the pain. All

40:10

right. The answer, I don't know. Well, you

40:13

can say whatever. Our answer today

40:15

was similar to the answer like

40:18

four days ago. However, the

40:21

answer four days before that was

40:23

somewhat different. So I just want to know which one you want

40:25

me to go

40:27

with because I. Could I

40:29

do a Tom Cruise thing here? I mean, I want

40:31

the truth. You can't handle

40:34

the truth. Give me the truth.

40:36

What's the truth? As of

40:38

this morning, our roles, we're

40:40

pretty defined in our roles and

40:42

hiring more people in

40:44

a way that changes our life. Right

40:47

now we are happy with

40:49

what we do, how we're doing

40:52

it. We feel a huge

40:54

amount of responsibility to

40:56

our customers and to that trust

40:59

that they place in us. That

41:01

doesn't mean that they wouldn't make other

41:03

choices. I'm

41:05

not foolish enough to

41:07

believe that. So I think

41:11

we have to really

41:13

pivot and decide if

41:16

we're going to put

41:18

our passion into building up

41:20

that community or

41:23

if we are possibly going to try to

41:25

compete and pick a fight. I

41:28

only use pick a fight as a term

41:30

from a book that I

41:33

mean that. In the old 37 signals, pick a

41:35

fight. In a

41:37

37 signal kind of sense. Rails versus Java kind

41:39

of way. So that's what I

41:41

mean by that. I don't mean a literal fight.

41:44

So I don't think we have

41:47

a definitive yet. We very

41:49

much like our roles. We're

41:52

very good with our time management. But all

41:54

of these things don't point to which

41:57

direction we really are

41:59

going. going to go yet. Yeah, one thing that

42:01

says actually in that book, I'm pulling it up, chapter

42:03

eight have an enemy. And I remember this actually reading

42:06

this, this rings back memories. Because I

42:08

think a lot of what Basecamp, they were

42:10

like, we don't, we don't know what we want to be, but we know what

42:12

we don't want to be. And so

42:14

the enemy was very much like Microsoft based

42:16

tooling. And how terrible it was. This

42:18

is how I feel about this right now. I'm

42:21

channeling a bit of this book right

42:23

now. This is I understand. Yeah, I

42:26

feel we know our roles. We feel

42:28

responsible to our customers. We we

42:31

might pick a fight. However we

42:33

know, I know this, we know who our

42:35

real enemies are. And our real enemy

42:37

is not necessarily at this point, a

42:39

startup that could

42:41

be wrong. I've written lots of JavaScript

42:44

and anger. I've written a tiny bit of

42:46

go and anger. And I've

42:48

written plenty of Ruby and Python, written

42:50

thread pools and process pools and done

42:52

all that. None of that is

42:55

pleasant. I don't ever want to do

42:57

any of those things again, unless I really have

42:59

to. And by comparison,

43:01

working in a in a

43:03

beam language of working on Elixir is

43:06

just so simple and joyous that

43:08

the idea of leaving that to

43:10

go focus on something else is

43:13

it's kind of painful. So

43:16

I think you know his answer. I think

43:18

you get his answer is very much. No,

43:22

I do not want this. I'm also a feelings

43:24

and maybe not so much larger. And that's

43:27

all right. They're

43:29

important feelings. That's a good awareness

43:31

to have in a moment like this, right? Like when you're when

43:34

you're in that we must pivot or

43:36

consider pivoting moment, it's important

43:38

to have awareness of truly the

43:40

emotional response you have. And

43:43

then counting to 10 or kind of 100 or

43:45

maybe even 10 days kind of situation like that

43:47

moment of emotion to decision,

43:50

you've got to put some buffer in there as

43:52

just a way to protect yourself

43:54

from being too irrational, Potentially

43:56

irrational. Right. Yeah, but also like

43:59

for. You as

44:01

a indy media. Company.

44:04

There is part of like how much do

44:06

you want to grow versus how much do

44:08

you have not want to face an existential

44:10

crisis Or think Jordan I can answer that

44:13

pretty well. how can we use I'm I

44:15

think as Anna how Gerrard answer it. But.

44:17

I think we're happy, don't we do? And I

44:19

don't. I think we're on the long game. Like

44:22

why talk to people. Delay. While you're

44:24

really think I'm like I was is that above

44:26

in quotes mixer forget hub it's here in Austin.

44:28

They were here for South by Southwest and as

44:30

they invited me out to coming out there for

44:32

a couple hours while they were at the garage

44:34

bar and was there an. Hour cycle

44:36

a false and I'll say hey we support about as

44:38

sometime early Why work at Ap when I can't tell

44:40

that story on my hope. You know

44:42

will be here whenever you're ready like that. Sounds pretty

44:44

cool whenever you can share in L A Y u

44:47

intellect as long game approach and like well. I

44:49

just been doing this for so long and I have a

44:51

pretty. Good confidence and like how

44:54

we've been hearing what keeps us here

44:56

both. Individually. As

44:58

passion, but also as a company.

45:01

And. I just have confidence that

45:03

will be here least futurists to at maybe

45:05

have a conversation. So they were just surprised

45:08

that I had this long game approach to

45:10

things. And. I think you can a half to.

45:12

And so are long game. Approach isn't.

45:15

O. M G, there's a competitor or

45:17

there's a podcast, it's more popular. Nicer.

45:19

There's an influencer who's more influential like

45:21

Jordan are not trying to be influencers

45:23

or influential, were just literally China talk

45:25

to people who share passionately. We do

45:27

get excited about worse offers going and

45:29

just have amazing conversations and. And. From

45:31

a technical level. Produce. A really

45:33

well produced podcast. It sounds like people

45:35

want to listen to the pretty beat

45:37

up with break master cylinder we have

45:39

music after. Like what other job could?

45:42

Yeah, I do this kind of stuff

45:44

that. On. Our own. We're my.

45:46

We make the choices in a we we

45:48

get to go into the nooks and crannies

45:50

and hang out there or zoom out and

45:52

get big a level if we chose to

45:54

follow. You. know the name that some

45:57

of the names on a situation like our guys

45:59

like when we be chasing them and not

46:01

going after what we feel is important and

46:04

what we think is more fun. As

46:07

best as we can be, we are in control

46:09

while also being in a world of chaos and total

46:12

change every day, right? I

46:15

think we're in such a similar situation.

46:17

That's where we were as of this

46:19

morning. As of this morning,

46:21

we decided to put our

46:24

efforts into ensuring that

46:26

the legacy and the process of

46:28

us maintaining anything,

46:30

if there was a tragedy,

46:32

something befalls us. That

46:34

our customers are in a good place, that

46:36

things are in a

46:39

nice responsive little box,

46:41

that people aren't left in the lurch.

46:44

That's what we decided this morning.

46:47

How much I gotta ask you this too, just because it's such

46:49

a an analog for me personally,

46:51

I've watched this over and over and I'm

46:53

seeing things that I haven't seen before. Have

46:55

you all watched, I'm sorry Jared, Silicon

46:58

Valley end to end, like all the seasons?

47:01

I've never seen a single episode. Neither. So

47:03

we're on Jared's side. My people, my people.

47:05

I was prepared for that. Not your people.

47:08

Okay, so you're missing out on wisdom here, okay? Are

47:10

we? You gotta, oh yeah, I mean it

47:12

might hurt you a little bit, but I think there's wisdom there.

47:15

And I just, I won't spoil the story except

47:17

for that. You may assume

47:19

that this name that shall not be

47:21

named, if you want to keep saying

47:24

that, I can. No, Adam, you have carte blanche.

47:26

You can do what you want. Well,

47:28

hatchet.run then, I suppose. Hatchet is who

47:30

you've considered their Y-com area. It's

47:33

unclear on how well they're doing.

47:35

Like you can assume that from the outside,

47:37

but on the inside they could be like

47:39

not doing well and not really competition. We

47:41

thought it is just kind of like a

47:43

counter data point of like, oh,

47:46

that's what that looks like. If you do it like

47:48

that, that's... And I think

47:50

their use cases are great.

47:52

There were lessons that we learned

47:54

in going through their material. We

47:58

don't have fear in our hearts. about

48:01

them. Okay, we're not expecting them to pull

48:03

the sword from the zone. None of this.

48:05

No fear at all. Okay. Well, you

48:07

were just saying like how you were making

48:09

sure your customers are very good if something

48:11

happened, a tragedy. So you were speaking melodramatic

48:13

about the potential. She's talking like really tragic.

48:16

Oh, no, no. I mean... Yes, she

48:19

means... Yes, bus factor of two. Of two?

48:21

I understand then. That's all I'm saying.

48:23

Sorry, I'll clarify. I mean, we

48:26

are riding around

48:28

Scandinavia, Europe, cars.

48:30

I mean, sometimes we

48:33

don't take super risky decisions,

48:36

but we're adventurous people. It's

48:38

good to have other contingency

48:41

things in place for people

48:43

who depend upon us. That's all I

48:45

meant. Our customers will be in a

48:48

good position. That's what we've decided because you

48:50

could take a deep dive into our business

48:53

and our time management and you

48:56

know, everything that we took so long in the

48:58

beginning to set up. I feel

49:00

like we're in such a good place with it now.

49:03

Can you describe your business? Can we go like

49:05

your pricing page in grok, which you might be

49:07

doing? Like what's the best way to examine from

49:10

a business level? Like beyond the

49:12

software beyond its ecosystem or hangs out at

49:14

like as a business, how

49:16

do you work? You invited this and now you

49:18

have to answer. What's your business model? Our

49:21

business model is open core. Totally.

49:23

In essence. We sell

49:25

a couple of paid packages or

49:27

a bundle of paid packages on top of

49:29

an open source offering. So the

49:32

two packages one is web, which is a live

49:35

view powered dashboard that people run right

49:37

in their main application that gives them

49:39

control and access and metrics and stuff

49:42

all to their interior open working. And

49:44

then we sell pro, which is

49:46

a bunch of more complex, more

49:48

advanced features built on top of

49:50

open that is all

49:52

possible through extensibility. And then

49:55

with either of those, we have a metrics package

49:57

and we have support. And there's a customer.

50:00

Enterprise unless you're just a minute or somebody

50:02

reached without his. First. People

50:04

need more support. Weekend.

50:07

And. Disciplined as.thought it. Was

50:25

a friend's This episode is bratty by

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well my good friends one of my

50:29

best friends actually one of our good

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50:33

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50:36

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50:38

sponsor ways because I just love tail

50:40

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50:42

and said hey we're talking to a

50:44

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50:46

I'd love to have you guys sponsor

50:48

Os and they reciprocated. So what his

50:51

tail scale will tell. Skill is a

50:53

programmable. Networking software that is

50:55

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51:02

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Android it is. An easy

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No credit card. And

53:21

what was your freedom number and when did you reach your freedom

53:23

number? What was the first part?

53:25

What's your freedom number? I was going to

53:27

go there too because we're now back to

53:30

understanding more clearly your freedom number. What

53:33

does it need to get there? How close are you to

53:35

it, etc. I feel that I

53:37

have to answer this since when I messaged

53:40

Jared most recently, I poked him

53:42

with this. I don't like specific

53:44

numbers. We'll use percentages

53:46

and things. Use a range or

53:48

something. Don't be gratuitous. The salary

53:51

of a senior developer in the

53:53

US, a very senior developer in

53:55

the US, that would be a

53:57

freedom number. Okay, half a million or more. below

54:01

that. Let's say between a quarter and...

54:05

I was thinking with the wrong people that last

54:07

night, gosh, somebody is... You're with some Google Apple

54:09

cards. Yeah, you're a bunch of Apple, I mean

54:12

Silicon Valley people. In the fangs. You were in

54:14

the fangs. Chicago kind of people. Non-fang developer salary.

54:16

So we're talking about... Yeah, non-fang developer salary. 200

54:18

to 400, right? Correct,

54:20

Jared. Okay, so that's your freedom number. Yeah, and

54:22

then we're over 200% of our freedom number. Well,

54:25

congrats. That's awesome. Well, that's a good place to

54:27

be. Now you need to go to Mojito Island.

54:29

Isn't that where you go after you reach that?

54:31

You... Jen servers. There

54:35

you go. Yeah, you're on your sailboat and

54:37

I'm on the beach and I say, looking

54:40

good Shannon. And you say feeling good. Feeling

54:42

good, Parker. Yeah,

54:45

I wouldn't be too nervous about your existential business

54:47

at this point. Yeah, so it's not an existential

54:50

thing. It's just where do you wanna... Where do

54:52

you wanna spend your time thinking about? Do you

54:54

wanna grow into this other ecosystem or this competition?

54:56

Or do you wanna firm up your foundation and

54:59

make sure that if you do go

55:01

out to Mojito Island and forgot to come back

55:03

to work the next day, then something's

55:05

gonna continue. It's gonna happen.

55:08

I think there's another part which is, this

55:11

is like the acolyte in me of,

55:14

I think Elixir as a

55:16

language and as an ecosystem is

55:19

just better than any, not

55:22

every other language because

55:24

of course it's not comparable to writing

55:27

C or Rust or Zig or all

55:29

these other things that have

55:31

a different category they fulfill. But

55:34

if you're writing web technology,

55:36

I just don't think, this

55:38

is my total hot take, I just

55:41

don't think anybody should be writing next

55:43

JS instead. I don't think anybody should

55:45

be writing Rails instead. I

55:47

think there's just more bang

55:49

for your buck that's

55:51

there. You'll have fewer servers. Well

55:54

there's your answer then. It's just

55:56

content creation. Why Elixir is better

55:58

than next JS? Why? Elixir

56:00

is better than Rails. Obviously

56:02

these are two different things but you get a point.

56:05

And then you just create content and you grow the

56:07

pool. You grow the pool of elixirists and then your

56:09

business grows. If you're fine with it growing a little

56:11

bit slower, a little more tried

56:13

and true and less vertical hockey stick,

56:15

then you just work on the overall

56:18

elixir ecosystem and as it

56:20

goes, open goes. Right. Be the

56:22

change you want to see out there, right? If

56:25

you want the market to grow for

56:27

the camp you want to hang out in and

56:29

not ever write JavaScript again like you said, then

56:33

you've got to put some insurance in place and

56:35

the best insurance is your wisdom and

56:37

directing folks to the right to what you think

56:39

is the way. Right. You

56:42

should do some business counseling, Adam. You've

56:44

got some wisdom there. We do it

56:46

as a podcast. Yeah. This is

56:48

it, man. This is it. You're

56:51

getting it. We get people on

56:53

here sometimes, Jared, right? They leave pretty pumped. They're

56:55

like, man, I love what I do now after

56:57

talking to you too. Oh,

56:59

yeah. Well, that's part

57:01

of the game too. We're users of Obon, right? We've

57:04

been users since way back in the day I think

57:07

as back in the day as we can go

57:09

when Jared was like, hey, we need to deal with these background jobs

57:11

and queues and stuff like that. I think it

57:13

was like email stuff was happening. It wasn't even

57:15

me. It was Alex Koutmoss who brought it in

57:17

the first time. Right. And I said,

57:20

hey, I haven't needed background job

57:23

stuff like this before. And

57:26

we needed it because I think there was a

57:28

specific use case. We had Alex doing some contract

57:30

work for us. I think it

57:32

was when we decided we wanted people to be

57:34

able to edit comments for like three

57:37

minutes or five minutes after you posted, just

57:39

the typo fix. So

57:42

when you send a comment on one

57:44

of our episodes, everybody

57:46

who's on the episode and hasn't opted

57:48

out or whoever you're applying

57:50

to, they get emails, so there's logic there about

57:52

who gets notified. Our comment

57:54

system is nice because it's not heavily used,

57:56

and so each comment is pretty high signal.

58:00

You want to know about it. There's very few. So you get

58:02

the email. No big deal. However, we

58:04

want to give the people the opportunity

58:07

to fix the typos before we send that email.

58:09

Because we'll put the comment content in the

58:11

email notifications. You don't have to come back to the website. You

58:13

can read what they said, right? And

58:15

I said, Alex, we want to be able to edit those

58:17

comments just because typos. We just want

58:19

to be better than Twitter. This was back when Twitter

58:21

didn't have comment or didn't have edit support. I'm like,

58:23

we got to have edit support because we

58:26

got to be better than Twitter. So

58:28

he went ahead and was working on that.

58:30

And what that required was basically a

58:32

future scheduled background job

58:35

that when you create the comment for the first

58:38

time, it's going to schedule the notification to

58:40

go out in five minutes or three minutes

58:42

or whatever the threshold is. And

58:44

we couldn't get that done without Oban. I mean,

58:46

we could have done it some other way, but he liked

58:49

Oban, so he reached for Oban. And

58:51

then I was like, well, now that it's in here,

58:53

we might as well just use it for all the

58:55

other things that I was just using processes for, you

58:57

know, spawn or whatever it is. I can't remember the

59:00

actual module name. I'm sure you know it, Parker. Task?

59:02

I'm pretty sure it's Task. Yeah, exactly.

59:05

I mean, you're still using Task. You're just using Task. Yeah, I still

59:07

use it. Task by other things.

59:10

Yeah, exactly. And so I was like,

59:12

well, let's just put everything in the background job now that we have the

59:14

library in here. And we're already got

59:16

the Postgres table set up, so we went through. And I

59:18

think you did a lot of that work, Parker, didn't you? You

59:20

came in and opened up a pull request, which was

59:23

like helping us use Oban better. And so

59:25

that's another way to do adoption is just,

59:27

you know, one open source repo at a

59:30

time. Go in there and open a PR.

59:32

There are a handful of really prominent open

59:34

source Elixir applications that change log as one

59:36

of them, but like plausible is another really

59:38

big one in paper cups. And

59:41

there are a few. I'd like to mention they all use Oban

59:44

in different ways, but any one of those

59:47

should hopefully, because people go there to learn

59:49

how do I put these things together? What

59:51

are the popular packages? It should

59:54

be idiomatic. It should be kind of how

59:56

you want them used. Yeah, I think that was

59:58

a really good use of your time. Go ahead. to open up

1:00:00

that pull request and making sure our use of

1:00:02

it is idiomatic. Because while we do not use

1:00:05

Phoenix idiomatic anymore, as I say it earlier, with

1:00:07

context and whatnot in live view, we still have

1:00:09

controllers in our code. I know those are out

1:00:11

of fashion now in Phoenix land.

1:00:14

Our use of Oban is idiomatic. They're legal.

1:00:16

You're allowed to do that. So yeah, I

1:00:19

guess that our app still compiles and runs.

1:00:21

So, but our Oban uses on point.

1:00:23

So if you want an example, Oban use, oh

1:00:25

yeah. You even, you even

1:00:27

got a bespoke feature added to

1:00:30

web for your, your Bizarro authentications

1:00:32

game. Oh yeah. Remind

1:00:34

me what I requested now that why you

1:00:36

built it for me. I think it's something,

1:00:40

I know what the feature is. I don't know

1:00:42

exactly why you guys were doing it. It's a

1:00:44

way to have authentication that where

1:00:46

it just redirects somewhere else. Like if you're

1:00:49

not staff or not admin or something,

1:00:51

you can't get in, but there are

1:00:53

certain people that have access who aren't

1:00:55

necessarily you. So you want

1:00:57

them to have read only access. And

1:01:00

I guess it was like three tiers of

1:01:02

access is really. Yeah, it was just a

1:01:04

case of, yeah, exactly. Where it was beyond

1:01:06

simple kind of Boolean in or out. It

1:01:08

was like three tiers and I can't remember

1:01:10

the setup. I could look at the code and have

1:01:12

my memory jogged, but it was basically slightly

1:01:15

more complicated off for the web

1:01:17

for the web access. And hopefully it

1:01:20

wasn't too much of work for you. Because it

1:01:22

was months, months of work. It's all we did

1:01:24

for months. You

1:01:26

don't even remember. I don't. I

1:01:28

mean, I remember being happy when it landed and

1:01:30

I cut over to it. I'm like, yay, it

1:01:32

works now. Cause I was doing something funky to

1:01:34

work around it. I want to give you some

1:01:36

praise that this PR was awesome because I think

1:01:38

it showed us early, and I suppose even to

1:01:40

now what your intentions were with the level of

1:01:42

support and care for the software

1:01:45

you're creating. It's so dedicated. It's

1:01:48

obscenely dedicated. I don't know

1:01:50

about obscene. It's obscene. Well, I had to

1:01:52

even email you. I recall it

1:01:54

was like, so it's responsive. Yeah. I was just like,

1:01:56

I cannot believe that you did this. I think I'm

1:01:58

going to read my email. I want to some degree,

1:02:00

I'll at least paraphrase some of it, or literally quote

1:02:03

it. I was like, first of all, like

1:02:06

how do you begin an email with first of all? Totally

1:02:08

we're in trouble. Oh no. I'm not threatening

1:02:10

you here. No, I'm not. I

1:02:13

am thanking you, okay? Thank you for that awesome

1:02:15

PR. I went looking for

1:02:17

your GitHub sponsor page, and after that, PR

1:02:19

and found the Oubon site, and

1:02:22

Web Plus Pro, we'd love to support the development,

1:02:24

and I think we supported for a bit, and

1:02:26

then we became pro users, and

1:02:28

something like that. I was like,

1:02:30

I couldn't believe this, that you had gone so deep

1:02:33

on this PR, and

1:02:35

helped us in that way, because like

1:02:37

Jared said, we didn't know how to use your tech

1:02:39

really, and you came in like, here's how you use

1:02:41

my tech, and that's how we use

1:02:43

your tech, and it's awesome. You'd think just

1:02:45

writing how to use something would be a better

1:02:48

approach, but sometimes words are hard, it's

1:02:51

easier to push code around. Sending

1:02:54

links to docs doesn't always

1:02:56

give the best. That's true. I

1:02:59

think the world needs more of that, right? The

1:03:02

personal touch? You get one of us.

1:03:04

That's just the way that it lands. Right,

1:03:07

because there's no one else to get. It's gonna be one

1:03:09

of you guys. Right. Another ranty

1:03:12

kind of thing, but I wish there were

1:03:14

a lot more independent shops

1:03:17

out there. It doesn't have to just

1:03:19

be two people, just a few people. There

1:03:22

are some mega software companies. I

1:03:24

just wish there were a few, because the

1:03:26

personality is great. It's like when you live

1:03:28

in an area, and you know

1:03:30

the people that own the restaurant, or you know

1:03:32

the people that own whatever the shop is, and

1:03:34

you have that rapport, and you know exactly what

1:03:37

you're gonna get, and when there's something wrong,

1:03:39

you just have a person to go to. And

1:03:41

you made a difference, Adam. I remember

1:03:43

where we were sitting when he opened

1:03:45

your email, when you responded.

1:03:48

Yeah, so this happens all

1:03:50

the time. Where you write something,

1:03:52

where you get an accolade, or you

1:03:54

get a response back from somebody, or

1:03:56

where you're working on something, we

1:03:59

remember where we were sitting. were at all the

1:04:01

time. People meld to these places. So

1:04:03

you made an impression with him. Saying

1:04:06

thank you has got to be part of it too. You know people

1:04:08

don't say thank you often enough. They just could

1:04:10

have sort of accept it and move along. I don't know if they're

1:04:12

shy or just maybe they feel like they might be bothering

1:04:14

someone. I don't know what makes somebody not

1:04:16

say thank you but I was like, I

1:04:19

was moved and I was like I gotta email these folks and tell them

1:04:21

thank you. And at the time we

1:04:23

were really trying to do a lot more with, and we

1:04:25

still are of course, but at the time we were like

1:04:27

more becoming more aware of like

1:04:30

the tooling we were using, the dev tooling we were using and

1:04:32

trying to give back on GitHub sponsors because

1:04:34

that was becoming you know more and more of a

1:04:36

thing to do. And we

1:04:38

obviously wanted to support you all in your

1:04:40

efforts with with Obon. How do you

1:04:42

feel about cron jobs? Do you like them?

1:04:44

Do you hate them? Like how does how

1:04:47

does this kind of merge into your world? Because I

1:04:49

want to I want to give a shout out to

1:04:51

somebody that I love and they're pretty awesome but they're

1:04:53

in the cron world and I don't like roughier

1:04:56

feathers if I don't have to. Well

1:04:58

I'm so we've got we have

1:05:00

cron as part of Obon

1:05:02

and it's purposefully kind of bare-bones.

1:05:04

So you have a static cron

1:05:07

tab that you set up and

1:05:09

when your app starts it'll go by that.

1:05:11

It's got some some niceties like the reboot

1:05:13

keyword and some of the things like that

1:05:16

but then in pro we also

1:05:18

have what is dynamic cron and

1:05:20

that has some things like guaranteed

1:05:22

scheduling. So if you were supposed to

1:05:25

schedule something like at midnight and it's only once a

1:05:27

month but your server happened

1:05:29

to restart or something happened it will go

1:05:31

back and identify that you missed that. It

1:05:33

will also let you update cron tab retry

1:05:36

the misses. Yeah it'll let you update them

1:05:38

at runtime where you can pause things you

1:05:40

can pause certain jobs and you can insert

1:05:42

new ones. So we we feel pretty

1:05:45

strongly that crons an important part of every

1:05:48

production app we know of because we get a lot

1:05:50

of config that people send us for like for diagnosing.

1:05:52

That's where I began for Jared. He's like I was

1:05:54

using cron for these things and whatnot so. Yeah but

1:05:57

there's also the benefit that we because it's

1:05:59

post-crisp active. like it's centralized and when

1:06:01

you know anytime you have a set

1:06:03

up two nodes now you have a

1:06:05

distributed system and either they have to

1:06:07

have consensus or you have to centralize through something

1:06:09

right and so we kind

1:06:12

of get away with a lot because

1:06:14

of that centralization part but I'm curious

1:06:16

who your crown friend is well

1:06:18

yeah I'll mention them but I think I want to

1:06:20

go on the note where you say you wish there

1:06:22

were more was the word you use

1:06:25

small shops or small teams yeah how

1:06:27

did you say it independent not not right

1:06:29

you know but not faceless mega corporation kind

1:06:31

of place I think they get kind of

1:06:33

hidden yeah and the reason I'm gonna say is

1:06:35

these folks is because they were kind of

1:06:37

hidden to me until I had the problem

1:06:40

and so it's not in the application world

1:06:42

it's more at the Linux level world so

1:06:44

the app I'm gonna mention is called carpenter

1:06:47

Jane and his team they're going to become a

1:06:49

sponsor because I've been such a fan and I've

1:06:51

been like hunting him down telling him

1:06:53

how I can help him and like just I'm just

1:06:55

a superfan of creator so the website is

1:06:57

carpenter dot IO and I use

1:06:59

it heavily and there's lots of folks in the home lab world

1:07:01

that I think would use it more heavily because there's so many

1:07:04

cron tabs users out there like and

1:07:06

cron just fails you mean you

1:07:08

can go read a log file that's kind of boring

1:07:10

right you want to go to an interface it's a

1:07:12

little easier and you want retries and grace periods and

1:07:15

more sophisticated things which is all part of

1:07:17

the carpenter platform that they have and

1:07:20

there's another name that comes to mind

1:07:22

is molehill now molehill was

1:07:24

an early days Ruby shop Jerry you may

1:07:26

remember this they're from the Florida area this

1:07:29

is like 15 years ago well you may

1:07:31

know what they do now which was they

1:07:33

did some things in the nonprofit world helping

1:07:35

applications out but now

1:07:37

their applications called buzzsprout

1:07:40

and you may know that Jerry because they deeply

1:07:43

into podcasting and that was where founders

1:07:45

talk I think and the web 2.0

1:07:48

showed the earlier podcast I had done and I

1:07:51

think the chainsaw was was hosted there before we

1:07:53

did we move that from there I'm pretty sure

1:07:55

we did here before went to five by five

1:07:57

and then from five by five to our application

1:08:01

So I mean, Molehill was an early

1:08:04

interface application development company, small shop, independent

1:08:06

shop, how do you want to frame

1:08:08

it? Chronitor is very much the

1:08:10

same. They have amazing revenue. They're like a few

1:08:12

people, like the CEOs

1:08:14

doing support kind of thing, answering my emails

1:08:16

and eventually sponsoring our podcast.

1:08:18

I want to mention that because I hunted

1:08:20

them down. I'm not mentioning because they're a

1:08:22

sponsor. I was so emphatically like, y'all are

1:08:24

amazing. We've got to talk. And then over

1:08:27

a period of probably eight months, we

1:08:29

finally pinned something down to work together.

1:08:31

And I'm just a fan of small teams like

1:08:33

that. I agree. I think indie teams, and I

1:08:35

wonder why is it because of

1:08:37

cloud? Is it because of the behemoths out

1:08:40

there? Do they just get overshadowed?

1:08:42

What is it that makes indie teams not

1:08:44

– I don't know

1:08:46

even how to describe how they're not there? Or

1:08:49

are they just hidden and they're hard to find? Because I didn't know about

1:08:51

Chronitor for a while, but they've been in place for years. Successful

1:08:54

enterprise teams. They're a

1:08:57

small team with really big businesses using them.

1:08:59

I can hypothesize. I don't have any –

1:09:02

Please do. This is all anecdotal, but

1:09:05

I think safety is one part of it. It's

1:09:08

hard to be a contractor. It's

1:09:10

really hard to start software from

1:09:12

nothing. To bootstrap something is

1:09:15

tricky. And the amount of time it

1:09:17

takes, if you have a day

1:09:19

job, to build something else for that safety,

1:09:21

to try to get to that place

1:09:24

where you can actually run it without worrying

1:09:26

about an income stream, takes a

1:09:28

lot of dedication. And that's double

1:09:31

work in some ways, and not

1:09:33

everybody's up for that. But then also, you

1:09:35

get so many startups, and what's the goal

1:09:38

of most startups? They're

1:09:40

incubated in some way. They have people

1:09:43

backing them. Therefore, those people

1:09:45

want to pay out. And usually, you have

1:09:47

to grow to be able to get there,

1:09:49

or you're letting down your investors. And

1:09:53

if you let down the investors and you don't get to

1:09:55

some sort of exit, then as a business,

1:09:57

you're kind of a failure. Whereas if you're an Indian, you're

1:09:59

a professional investor. the mom-and-pop kind

1:10:01

of place or however

1:10:03

you break it down even if it's just a few

1:10:05

employees. You don't have those. You

1:10:08

just don't have the incentive, right? It's your

1:10:10

lifestyle. So I don't know

1:10:12

if people see lifestyle business as a

1:10:15

detractor but to me it sounds like

1:10:18

the way I would hope more people

1:10:20

could live. He's

1:10:22

an evangelist. You can speak to this Jared

1:10:25

a little bit, right? You can speak to

1:10:27

this Jared because you ran object lateral for

1:10:29

multiple years as a solo dev and you

1:10:31

always seemed to me, I can probably suggest

1:10:34

some ways I thought you felt and to

1:10:37

some degree, but you always seem very confident in your

1:10:39

ability to and you were always very

1:10:41

customer focused. I'm, you mentioned even recently

1:10:43

like hey I've had this responsibility with this friend

1:10:45

of mine. I no longer do day-to-day work

1:10:47

with them but I had to help them spin it up and

1:10:50

it was, you were lamenting like how hard it was to get

1:10:52

their stack back into place basically. But

1:10:54

you've had as object lateral, you were

1:10:56

an indie individual person. That

1:10:58

was your full livelihood. You raised a family on

1:11:01

it. Obviously now we're, you know, you're working with

1:11:03

change log and that's, you know, that's in your

1:11:05

past but like for a long time you were

1:11:07

just helping people and slaying apps and hiring contractors

1:11:09

and getting the job done. Yeah. I

1:11:12

agree with all that. Was there, was there a question

1:11:14

in there or something you want to be responsive? No

1:11:16

real question. More just like share your experience. Share

1:11:19

my experience. Yeah. Well. Like

1:11:22

on the idea of indie, mom-pop, you know,

1:11:24

the fear, you know, the lifestyle and

1:11:27

I think, you know, what Parker was hypothesizing

1:11:29

was just essentially the fear of like not

1:11:31

being able to have this big job with

1:11:33

a big salary and whatever. Yeah. Well I

1:11:35

think like that growth mentality is just extant

1:11:38

and pervasive on the internet

1:11:40

probably because of Silicon

1:11:43

Valley, the ethos, not the TV

1:11:45

show. Both. Both.

1:11:47

Do you get a chime for that one if

1:11:50

it's just a name? Every time. Every single time.

1:11:52

I specified it's just the ethos. I did not

1:11:54

reference the television show. So no chime. I

1:11:56

said chime. There's a chime. There's

1:11:58

a chime. I have a question. feel that the

1:12:00

lifestyle mom and pop, what

1:12:02

we do, we're in a

1:12:05

bubble. So when we break

1:12:07

out of this bubble and occasionally attend

1:12:09

a conference or occasionally go

1:12:11

to a meetup, do we

1:12:14

drive people away from choosing us

1:12:16

based on how intrinsically

1:12:19

our lives are wrapped

1:12:21

around our project? Are we driving

1:12:23

them away? I don't like the way you're

1:12:25

phrasing this question. You personally, just the two

1:12:27

of you are just turning everybody off personally.

1:12:30

It's just everybody's running. I don't

1:12:32

think so. No, I think people will say

1:12:35

lifestyle business. And when they say that, it's

1:12:37

a bit of a pejorative. Like they're like,

1:12:39

Oh, it's a lifestyle business. Isn't that cute?

1:12:41

You know, like you're not, I don't think

1:12:44

it's right. I'm saying I feel

1:12:46

that term is perhaps

1:12:48

detracting. Right. Perhaps. I think we

1:12:50

need to take it back. You know, we should take it

1:12:52

back. But I think that what

1:12:54

I did and what you guys are doing is slightly

1:12:56

different. More than slightly

1:12:59

different because I was

1:13:01

effectively a dev shop. I was a

1:13:03

glorified freelancer. There's a lot of freelancers

1:13:05

making livings on the internet, writing software

1:13:07

on contract service companies

1:13:09

like building software, whether as a

1:13:12

service or products,

1:13:14

you know, like open pro and

1:13:17

selling them to customers. I

1:13:19

think it's a little bit of a different beast.

1:13:22

And so I think there are a lot, there's a

1:13:24

very vibrant freelance community. And some people

1:13:26

call themselves, you know, dev shops or

1:13:28

contractors. Other people hit their freelance. Just

1:13:30

like some people are developers, other people

1:13:32

are programmers. But I think

1:13:35

that's alive and well. And I think there's more

1:13:37

of that going on maybe than ever. But

1:13:39

in terms of people starting small software

1:13:42

companies in order to sell software, whether

1:13:44

it's as a service or, you know,

1:13:46

as a download or whatever it is. There's

1:13:48

definitely a lot less of those that stay small

1:13:50

or start small for that. For

1:13:52

that matter. Well, we have a few

1:13:54

things going for us. We started later rather

1:13:57

than earlier, which is great for us.

1:13:59

We had already. tried a few other endeavors.

1:14:03

I feel like that made a huge difference for us. I

1:14:06

also feel like we stopped

1:14:08

consulting. I realized that you

1:14:10

have what they refer to as a day job,

1:14:13

but that's really the

1:14:15

only thing now aside

1:14:17

from open. We were consulting

1:14:20

with up to clients each. So

1:14:23

I think before COVID, we

1:14:25

were, I would say we were

1:14:28

pressed for, time

1:14:30

beyond compare. Yeah. So

1:14:34

we stopped consulting and taking on

1:14:36

clients. And that was

1:14:38

right before COVID really kicked off. Well,

1:14:41

I might jump to a couple of things too, because if

1:14:44

you're running your own software shop or

1:14:46

your own product, you have

1:14:48

to wear so many different hats. I mean, there's

1:14:50

the entrepreneurial spirit itself, and then

1:14:52

it comes down to marketing and then having the

1:14:54

technical chops to do that, and then having the

1:14:56

support side, and then having the writing. There's

1:14:59

just so many things you have to do that

1:15:01

balancing all that is difficult by itself, especially

1:15:04

if you're not bringing in a lot of other

1:15:06

contractors. And I think the

1:15:09

language you choose can make a difference as

1:15:11

well. Some things, it's

1:15:14

just, it takes more time. It's harder to

1:15:16

do something with a couple

1:15:18

of senior people and some

1:15:20

ecosystems compared to others. Yeah, there's

1:15:22

no one size fits all. I do think

1:15:25

that maybe when it comes to product, software

1:15:27

products, it may be

1:15:29

that the successful ones, because of

1:15:32

the marginal, because of the

1:15:34

profit margins on software sales, which you

1:15:36

all are enjoying, right? Like every marginal

1:15:39

sale for you has not nowhere

1:15:41

near as commensurate work on your side,

1:15:43

right? You have support, but you

1:15:45

could just sell them to the health. And

1:15:47

so when you start to actually

1:15:49

get over that hump and the flywheel's rolling, well,

1:15:52

it's hard to stay small at that point, because the

1:15:54

other one I'm thinking of is, and they actually sell hardware, so

1:15:56

it's slightly different, but it's similar,

1:15:58

is thanks to their canary. We had

1:16:00

Haroon Samir. Haroon Meer, he remembers

1:16:03

his last name, Haroon from

1:16:05

Thinks on the show last year talking

1:16:07

about Canary. And they're relatively small

1:16:10

and making really good money selling

1:16:12

these software or these security devices

1:16:15

into enterprises. They're like honeypots basically.

1:16:17

And they have a hardware aspect which means that

1:16:20

their margins aren't as good. But

1:16:22

once their sales got rolling, they're making

1:16:25

really good money and he has to try

1:16:27

hard to stay small because it's so easy

1:16:29

to chase every opportunity when you have capital

1:16:31

to spend. And so

1:16:33

maybe that's why people end

1:16:35

up chasing larger growth is

1:16:38

because once you've conquered

1:16:40

the mountain, then you're like well,

1:16:43

wasn't there like an old saying about a guy who

1:16:45

cried because he had no more mountains to conquer? Was

1:16:47

it Alexander? I think it was Alexander.

1:16:49

Come on Jared. You guys know

1:16:51

that one? I don't know that one but I like the idea. I

1:16:53

mean I think that's- Alexander as in

1:16:55

the great or like in the

1:16:57

no good, very bad terrible day

1:16:59

or which Alexander? Not that well.

1:17:02

The great of course. Anytime you leave off the

1:17:04

second part, it has to be Alexander the Great.

1:17:06

Who else could it possibly be? The terrible?

1:17:09

I think Ivan. No, that's Ivan

1:17:11

the terrible, yeah. Our

1:17:13

growth has been stable. I

1:17:16

feel great about it. I really don't know what

1:17:18

I would say other than our growth has been

1:17:21

stable and I feel like

1:17:23

our churn is kept relatively low. All

1:17:26

of these things are great. When we

1:17:28

go to balance our time, Parker is

1:17:30

right though. It will be Monday for

1:17:32

writing. It's blogs. It's Tuesday. If

1:17:35

something's on fire and we get

1:17:37

a request, then that

1:17:39

takes immediate priority. But

1:17:42

we really do have to stay on

1:17:44

top of- there's another book I read,

1:17:46

it was like years ago though, about

1:17:48

the Pomodoro, like your small tasks

1:17:51

all day long. It seems

1:17:53

like we run these little box

1:17:55

checks lists with each other. It is

1:17:58

not uncommon for the two of us to sit.

1:18:00

right next to each other and not talk for

1:18:03

three hours. He's

1:18:05

like, this is a lie. He's like, I

1:18:07

never get three hours. He's like, I

1:18:09

never get three full hours. Somebody always.

1:18:11

One of us is talking. Well,

1:18:15

if we get an email from Adam or

1:18:18

from Jared, then. You gotta pause

1:18:20

and read it. Then you high five each other. Do you

1:18:22

guys have any sort of celebration routines like when a new

1:18:24

sale comes in? A lot of people have some sort of

1:18:26

a bell that goes off or a thing on the wall.

1:18:30

Do you guys do high fives? Do you give

1:18:32

each other a hug? Of course we do. In

1:18:34

the early days, we did. We

1:18:36

would celebrate with steak, especially if we got

1:18:38

an annual sale or something. You

1:18:41

can only eat so much steak. I'm

1:18:44

sorry, I know there's a text in available. Which

1:18:46

brings me back to my Alexander the Great quote. Here's my Alexander

1:18:48

the Great quote, which you can only eat so much steak. This

1:18:51

is a good point. I don't

1:18:53

think this is actually, I don't think you said that,

1:18:56

but the quote is, when Alexander saw the breath of

1:18:58

his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds

1:19:00

to conquer. That was from Plutarch.

1:19:02

I think there's arguments about whether it

1:19:05

was actually from Plutarch or whatever, but that's the

1:19:07

idea. He needed a pair

1:19:09

of binos. He needed some binoculars. No,

1:19:11

so he's, I

1:19:14

gotta back into this one. He's DHH

1:19:17

in a way. How so? His DHH

1:19:19

creates rails, conquers the world. Basecamp

1:19:22

does amazingly well. He does, he starts

1:19:24

a racing career. He's formula one. Le

1:19:26

Mans, everything that he

1:19:28

attempts works perfectly. He

1:19:31

conquers it and then he's bored. And

1:19:33

then he laments like, well, this is, what am

1:19:35

I gonna do now? It's just, you

1:19:37

keep conquering all the little mountains and you get there

1:19:39

and then you're bored. And maybe

1:19:43

I'm a lesser person and maybe a lot of us

1:19:45

are lesser people, but that's

1:19:47

like, no, I just redid a guide

1:19:49

today. And that guide, it's clearer and

1:19:52

it helped these other people. And that's

1:19:54

like a small win, but

1:19:56

that's enough to just keep this constant

1:19:59

forward momentum. So you're smoothing out

1:20:01

the mountains instead of climbing a mountain then

1:20:03

finding a bigger mountain Right is kind of

1:20:05

constantly moving upward and finding some joy and

1:20:07

peace in it, right? Sorry,

1:20:11

I'm over here thinking DHH is you know

1:20:13

when he gets bored He goes on Twitter

1:20:15

and throws Molotov cocktails, you know, like he's

1:20:17

he's bored So I'm gonna go get into

1:20:19

verbal spats with all of humanity.

1:20:22

What an interesting person though. Really? He is a

1:20:25

caricature for our I mean innovative

1:20:28

Leader in a lot of cases, but also just

1:20:31

like a unique individual. That's for dang. Share me

1:20:33

Right if he's looking for any ideas I

1:20:35

feel costuming and learning to fly commercial

1:20:37

airplanes is avail I think you should

1:20:39

go that route both costuming one

1:20:41

or the other or both put on

1:20:44

maybe some I think that's like Mitchell

1:20:46

Hashimoto's Yeah,

1:20:51

yeah, well when you have the mills you can

1:20:53

do the thing yeah And

1:20:56

you can get cars and drive them on which is

1:20:58

you know, I think if I was there the great

1:21:00

had more Hobbies, you

1:21:02

know like even available, you know,

1:21:04

like Bill Burr he flies a helicopter I

1:21:07

feel like if Alexander the comedian just

1:21:09

had it. Yeah He's a

1:21:11

trained helicopter pilot and he seems

1:21:13

to have so much rage for flying a

1:21:15

helicopter I don't wow if I trust that

1:21:17

I think he only flies by himself for

1:21:20

the most part But that's what's

1:21:22

hot That's one of his hobbies like he does that to

1:21:24

the compress and I feel like if I was an of

1:21:26

the great just had like a helicopter or yeah a F1

1:21:29

car or something a mountain

1:21:31

bike wouldn't have cried so much would've been such

1:21:33

a crybaby Well, I can agree with that I

1:21:36

mean gosh, I've been soaked at peace in my

1:21:38

garage just turning a wrench on my mountain bike

1:21:40

lately I've been doing some cool stuff and I'm

1:21:42

just like it's my happy place, you know, I

1:21:44

put some music on I jammed

1:21:46

for a couple hours by myself No

1:21:49

drinks just just turn the wrench and It's

1:21:52

good. It's analog, you know, it's not a

1:21:54

computer. It's not a screen You

1:21:57

know my son would come out and help me for a bit to

1:21:59

the calm Oh, yeah, just calm bomb. Just

1:22:01

calm bomb. It's a little of the...

1:22:03

Just the essentials. Is that Natty Ultra? Love that

1:22:05

everywhere. The Natty Ultra Calm Bomb. This is...it's

1:22:07

300 milligrams. It should be 600 to really take me

1:22:09

to where I want to go. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

1:22:13

Well, we got to find our peace in our hobby. That's for sure. I

1:22:15

like your idea though to flatten out the mountains though because it's a good thing.

1:22:17

It's a good thing. There is a lot of zen

1:22:19

to our life. I'm not sure. I'm not

1:22:21

sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm

1:22:24

not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not

1:22:26

sure. I'm not sure. There

1:22:28

is a lot of zen to our life. There's

1:22:30

a lot of balance. Sometimes I

1:22:32

feel like... I think our children are here.

1:22:34

There's a lot of zen to our life when they listen

1:22:36

to this. They're like, what are you talking about? But...

1:22:40

From the chaos. Yeah. You

1:22:42

know, this one's chaotic enough. It just

1:22:45

averages out. Well, even with

1:22:47

this pivot you said earlier and this

1:22:50

non-incumbent coming in, you know, making

1:22:53

you think differently, big change. I

1:22:55

said this before Jared. Big change

1:22:57

brings big change. We

1:23:00

don't always know the ripple effect of a

1:23:02

new decision, right? If

1:23:04

you like where you're at currently and you

1:23:06

like your relationship and that's where

1:23:08

it's at, I would fight to

1:23:11

stay small. And not small isn't like not

1:23:14

grand vision, but small isn't like

1:23:16

that you're still in charge, that you're still calling

1:23:18

shots, that you can maintain. Things

1:23:20

that Jared and I established as

1:23:23

rudders to our business has been slow

1:23:25

and steady, wins the race. That's a pretty

1:23:27

common thing for folks to think about, but

1:23:30

I don't think that slow and steady means you

1:23:32

literally go slow. I think it means

1:23:34

you can go as fast as you can while maintaining

1:23:36

a version of control for where you're trying to go.

1:23:39

That you're aware of where you're trying to go and you're

1:23:41

going at a speed that is comfortable. That might be 100

1:23:43

miles an hour, right? It

1:23:45

doesn't have to be necessarily slow. It's more like slow

1:23:47

and steady. So it's the two together. It's

1:23:49

a pairing. The other one is if

1:23:52

we get sort of over our skis and we're sort

1:23:54

of like rethinking like, oh

1:23:56

my gosh, this is a lot of whack

1:23:58

or things are off kilter. Slow

1:24:00

down and check yourself. Like

1:24:02

what are you optimizing for? Those

1:24:05

three things like what are you optimizing for

1:24:07

slow and steady slow down and check yourself have

1:24:09

been like Lifesavers in

1:24:11

my personal life and in the business you're not run together

1:24:13

and I can imagine he probably feels the same because he

1:24:15

does say So so take

1:24:18

that as you'd like and apply it

1:24:20

as you'd like because that's helped us

1:24:23

Yeah, I think you get great ideas in

1:24:25

this for the moment, but any time you

1:24:28

just take that Manifest it

1:24:30

and then push it on the world You it

1:24:33

wasn't quite there like you just have to take a

1:24:35

step back and look at something Like

1:24:38

in art school you're taught when you're drawing

1:24:40

or you're painting take a step ten

1:24:42

feet back Look at it again and

1:24:44

then come back in and

1:24:46

rework it because until you take some time

1:24:48

away It's not going

1:24:51

to see everything perspective. That's what that's about.

1:24:53

You need time for perspective Yeah, for sure.

1:24:55

You can't borrow it. Nobody can give it

1:24:57

to you You have to build

1:25:00

it and grow it Adam. I think

1:25:02

you said that emotional response you have That's

1:25:05

not always The one you

1:25:07

want to lead with that's not the one you

1:25:09

make the decision with it's important to acknowledge it

1:25:12

have that conversation Yeah, and even

1:25:14

have it too. Like I love I mean, I've

1:25:17

written some messages that I did not send Okay, but

1:25:19

it felt good to write the message Is

1:25:22

that what we got? No In

1:25:26

reference to us discussing that pivot

1:25:28

or not we've ran the

1:25:30

tracks on a lot of different versions

1:25:32

of which way we could go and Emotionally

1:25:35

really hearing each other I can think

1:25:37

of a house we went and looked

1:25:39

at When we were first

1:25:42

buying homes when we were home shopping and Parker

1:25:44

turned to me The minute

1:25:46

I mean we had already put an offer

1:25:48

on this house and it was during the

1:25:50

home inspection Right and he turns

1:25:52

to me and he's like, I don't want this house.

1:25:54

I Don't know this house.

1:25:57

She's like, I don't want this house this house Will.

1:26:00

Cause us to fight. Or to stand

1:26:02

in the shower can't stand in the prepared

1:26:04

to me and it's gotten a little has

1:26:06

sent tirade at his last are you tall

1:26:08

guy are already mean you can't stand in

1:26:10

the shower Another in the behemoth some other

1:26:12

people are my plan for six feet tall

1:26:14

and six for to. Oxford. The

1:26:16

as yet a hunch down in the

1:26:18

shower. there was a summary of shower

1:26:21

I don't know. I will discuss it

1:26:23

was an episodic in his team Sixty

1:26:25

Farm House and okay I get that

1:26:27

commuter commuter. Town outside of Chicago so

1:26:29

and a wraparound ports. I'm not

1:26:31

saying this was the dream house,

1:26:33

but we had agreed on it

1:26:35

and we're looking through the house

1:26:37

and the inspection is taking place

1:26:39

and I think we're just kind

1:26:41

of wandering around to kill time.

1:26:44

And he turned to me and has

1:26:46

this. I mean I'm very emotional

1:26:48

responses are I do not want this house.

1:26:51

I do not want what will come with

1:26:53

his house. I think it's going to class

1:26:55

fights. I don't like that and. I just

1:26:57

saw a candle Morale among talking logos are

1:26:59

the doctor says books birth or six percent

1:27:01

of a C D C said it. Now

1:27:03

I guess they are. I am. I did

1:27:05

idea it. Was A it was a

1:27:08

con lists bullet points in verbal

1:27:10

A while. But. You Must. No.

1:27:13

We lasts contacted the attorney

1:27:15

and pulled it out. Of.

1:27:17

He has ever seen the wedding singer. Absolute

1:27:20

remember how his bride doesn't show up

1:27:22

for the wedding. That's. right? Yeah and

1:27:24

then she comes to him that day and with

1:27:26

like sorry but so did I do So the

1:27:28

eyes you like sorry I just couldn't marry you

1:27:31

Once again things that could have been brought to

1:27:33

my attention yeah yeah I'm just imagining said and

1:27:35

yelling that to Parker one is like I don't

1:27:37

want us out like I appreciate the decisiveness for

1:27:39

their and. Burn out there before

1:27:41

you make the big mistake. But yeah since you

1:27:43

know is as are in a walkthrough foreigner I

1:27:46

mean c'mon sense in the shower the previous day

1:27:48

to. Did. I target the song

1:27:50

previous I don't have time ago

1:27:52

aside ago more. Place no blame.

1:27:55

Those them to him sued little bit out

1:27:57

of this situation with of is a dumpster

1:27:59

fire. Now I was like oh this is

1:28:01

a dumpster fire still a first for I just

1:28:03

called the attorney and said yeah we got to

1:28:06

get out of this. Get

1:28:08

the settlers. He says. No.

1:28:10

You do things with a partner with

1:28:13

a little spouse or business partner friend

1:28:15

that you know. maybe it doesn't seem

1:28:17

like your idea but it might work

1:28:19

in my grow on you. And.

1:28:23

Me: That thought I was a a good

1:28:25

you don't have that fight or flight Liana

1:28:27

dislike part. He just know that they will

1:28:29

work so. It's important to listen to.

1:28:32

The bullet point com less when somebody decides

1:28:34

to give you an honest read like that

1:28:36

and night emotionally, I feel like we've had

1:28:39

a lot of that back and forth on

1:28:41

whether or not to ten it. And.

1:28:44

To get to that point of being able

1:28:46

to really listen of like Adam said like

1:28:48

look if you value this it this is

1:28:50

where your values are of This is what

1:28:52

you're working towards. Recognize.

1:28:54

That that's at stake. I hear you.

1:28:57

I hear you are wise one. Big

1:29:00

change brings big change. Six had some

1:29:02

ominous sign on and as is scary

1:29:04

Diana see need to speak to call

1:29:07

know whether to com as i as

1:29:09

I explained a little bit like this

1:29:11

is i think we on we understand

1:29:14

that I was when I'm sorry I

1:29:16

have to and we get regrows insurance

1:29:18

or explaining interest in just one second

1:29:20

series. Sometimes we

1:29:23

make choices in our allies and they

1:29:25

are be changes and we think we're

1:29:27

just making that one big. Change.

1:29:30

And this is coming from my own Prospectus of this

1:29:32

is like. School. A hard knocks

1:29:34

body metal situation and you think

1:29:36

you're okay? I use you've risk

1:29:39

factor that single one big change.

1:29:41

And. Maybe you consider a couple ripples. right?

1:29:45

but sometimes that be change brings other be

1:29:47

cheese that you did not d risk. And

1:29:50

that's where my perspective is with as

1:29:52

a Sometimes Beatings brings big change because.

1:29:54

You've. Thought through the one thing but have you thought

1:29:56

through all the from it is not. We can't do this.

1:29:59

but Everyone knows what a version of

1:30:01

big change is in their life and apply it accordingly.

1:30:05

Big change can bring big change. So

1:30:07

beware of the contagion. Yeah,

1:30:10

I mean there's ripple effects for sure. The

1:30:13

one big change you're considering and saying yes to

1:30:15

isn't the only big change possibility as a result

1:30:17

of the yes. And

1:30:19

likewise the no. I feel like that's potentially

1:30:21

crippling advice though. I mean

1:30:23

you're just ominous. You're like don't make a big

1:30:25

decision because it's going to cause other big ripple

1:30:27

effects. I didn't say don't. I

1:30:30

just said big change brings big change.

1:30:32

Prepare. Like take a towel. Is

1:30:35

that not a warning? It's a warning to

1:30:37

consider your big changes. Yeah, I think it is

1:30:39

a – I don't consider it a

1:30:41

warning. It's more like a red flag. I guess that's

1:30:43

a warning. I don't know. It's like

1:30:45

a negative warning. It's just more like hey, if you're

1:30:47

making a big change, consider this other

1:30:49

big change you haven't considered. And

1:30:52

don't go in with like zero

1:30:54

margin. Have some margin. When

1:30:56

you go into a room, plan your exit

1:31:00

or consider that you might need to exit. Or

1:31:02

when you go to buy a house, consider an exit.

1:31:04

Yeah, I mean I think that's just how I operate.

1:31:06

At least I try to. And I

1:31:08

get really upset when I give advice and I

1:31:10

don't always take my own advice. And I'm like

1:31:13

Adam, you knew better. What is wrong with you?

1:31:16

And then I podcast about it. That's how it works.

1:31:18

Oh, not taking your own advice is the life of

1:31:20

– It's the worst, man. Yeah. Every senior

1:31:22

developer. True. Yeah,

1:31:24

it's the worst. It's the worst when

1:31:26

your own advice is splashed in the face. Like you knew better.

1:31:29

Come on. But that's

1:31:31

it. Big change. Brings big change.

1:31:34

Well, we are excited for you too. We

1:31:36

are excited to see what comes

1:31:38

next. What big change, your next big change is

1:31:40

going to bring. I'm looking

1:31:43

forward to some new Elixir content, some hot

1:31:45

takes from both of you, some

1:31:48

widening of the Elixir ecosystem. I would love

1:31:51

for you to put on paper

1:31:53

or perhaps on video like

1:31:55

how Oban is a

1:31:57

killer app that should make you pick Elixir. Exercise

1:32:00

that thought all the way to its logical

1:32:02

conclusion and make that argument. I'll

1:32:05

certainly read that I was certainly sure that around I'm

1:32:07

interested in that and Congrats

1:32:10

on all the success. I mean you've doubled your

1:32:12

freedom number and you're still rocking and rolling I

1:32:15

just don't believe it will ever lead to

1:32:17

a retirement and that's great because

1:32:21

That means the honest now we have

1:32:23

options and it the

1:32:25

freedom is there It's

1:32:27

just the freedom to choose the reason that

1:32:29

people retire and then they end up going getting another

1:32:32

job is that they have no more Mountains to conquer

1:32:34

you just got to keep it keep it going. That's

1:32:36

right. It always goes back to Alexander the great Mm-hmm

1:32:38

now. So this is what Paul Vicky said to us

1:32:40

last week I asked him because

1:32:42

Paul Vixie has conquered many mountains. So he's

1:32:44

a Internet Hall of Famer instrumental

1:32:47

in the DNS protocol Etc.

1:32:49

He wrote bind actually Vixie's

1:32:51

kron is Still the

1:32:53

kron that runs in most Linux's today like his implementation

1:32:55

of kron is still there So he's been

1:32:58

in the business, you know 40 years 60

1:33:01

years old working at AWS at some

1:33:03

high level and I asked him why

1:33:05

he hasn't retired yet and he said What

1:33:07

I learned about myself because he had an opportunity to kind

1:33:09

of call it quits He sold another business a few years

1:33:11

ago And he said what I realized

1:33:13

is if I didn't have a reason to get out of bed

1:33:16

I'm not gonna get out of bed and he learned that

1:33:18

about himself And so he said so I went

1:33:20

back to work now I have colleagues and

1:33:22

I have projects and I have trips

1:33:24

to take and stuff to do and I'm just

1:33:26

a happier person with a job than

1:33:28

I was without one so not that he's

1:33:31

every person some people can retire and Find

1:33:33

all kinds of stuff to do for themselves that are

1:33:35

not money producing But I think

1:33:38

we do have to have a purpose and a reason to get out of

1:33:40

bed in the morning otherwise, we just kind

1:33:42

of waste away and and

1:33:44

I mean heck some people die young

1:33:47

because they retire young so That

1:33:49

sucks. I've got to make something or

1:33:51

fix something or the day is just

1:33:53

not complete. So right? I

1:33:56

hear him on that Physical or digital?

1:33:59

Well, I'll answer it your call, content

1:34:01

is coming. And we

1:34:03

have a talk at ElixirConf EU

1:34:06

in Lisbon, which is about

1:34:08

scaling applications. And we have an application

1:34:10

that we're building to push

1:34:12

the boundaries of what's kind of

1:34:14

possible for job processing. And that

1:34:16

will be part of that talk too. So we're working on it.

1:34:19

We'll see if we can get in the how open

1:34:21

is a killer app for Elixir hot take. I

1:34:24

love it. Before ElixirConf EU. There

1:34:27

you go. When you write that or

1:34:29

record that or whatever it turns out being as

1:34:31

media, let us know. It's

1:34:35

been fun. Bye friends. Change

1:34:43

log plus plus listeners stick around for

1:34:45

a wild bonus segment where Adam suggests

1:34:47

they take their Elixir is better than

1:34:49

X content series on the road. I

1:34:52

accidentally offend Shannon, then recover gracefully with

1:34:54

Parker's help. And Shannon makes a confession

1:34:56

about their past that includes chickens, a

1:34:58

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