0:05

Welcome to the British History Podcast. My name

0:07

is Jamie, and this is episode 444, Holy

0:09

Beef. This

0:13

show is ad-free due to member support, and

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as a way of thanking members for keeping

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the show independent, I offer members-only content, including

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extra episodes and rough transcripts. And you can

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get instant access to all the members' extras

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by signing up for membership at thebritishhistorypodcast.com for

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about the price of a latte per month.

0:29

And thank you very much to Tilda, Sylvia,

0:31

and Jennifer for signing up already. Based

0:34

on the emails I've been getting, some

0:36

of you are having a hard time

0:39

understanding why on God's green earth did

0:41

Odo think he could just trot down

0:43

to Rome and become the new Pope.

0:46

The truth is that actually he was less

0:48

crazy than we might think, and I'm going

0:51

to take a moment to explain the situation

0:53

a little better. Partly because

0:55

this becomes important for our story later on,

0:58

and partly because it's hilariously messy,

1:00

and I love mess. Okay,

1:03

do you recall the fight that Pope

1:05

Gregory had with King Henry IV of

1:07

Germany? It was the one

1:09

where Henry declared Gregory wasn't the

1:12

Pope, and Gregory declared Henry wasn't

1:14

king. At its core,

1:17

this was a gargantuan battle over

1:19

power at the highest level. Henry

1:22

had found himself in a weakened political state,

1:25

and Pope Gregory VII saw an

1:27

opportunity. He wanted the

1:29

church to rule above all kings and

1:31

emperors, and so he publicly moved against

1:33

Henry trying to put him in his

1:35

place. Henry didn't appreciate

1:37

that, and thus began the

1:39

big holy beef of the 11th century.

1:42

But this conflict wasn't constrained to

1:44

two men and their hurt feelings.

1:47

When Gregory went so far as to

1:49

excommunicate Henry and declare him not a

1:52

king, a bunch of German nobles saw

1:54

an opportunity to advance their own goals,

1:56

and they selected their own king. Rudolph.

2:01

And the new anti-king Rudolph and his

2:04

supporters were causing Henry so many problems

2:06

that he was on the verge of

2:08

losing his crown. So Henry

2:10

had no choice but to seek

2:13

Gregory out and beg for absolution

2:15

and repeal his excommunication. Gregory

2:17

obviously didn't want to do that and so

2:19

he did the same thing that targets of

2:21

lawsuits sometimes do. He tried

2:23

to evade service of process. In

2:26

this case he moved to Kenosa. But

2:28

it didn't work because Henry followed

2:30

him and that was the famous

2:32

walk to Kenosa in 1077 that

2:34

we talked about in an earlier

2:36

episode. Well it

2:38

turned out that walk didn't

2:40

end the fight. Henry's

2:43

excommunication was lifted and some

2:45

related disagreements were settled but

2:47

the actual cause of the

2:50

conflict, the question of

2:52

royal authority relative to the church

2:54

and whether or not Henry was

2:57

allowed to select bishops was never

2:59

resolved. Henry still wanted

3:01

to pick bishops as monarchs had

3:03

done for generations and

3:05

Gregory wanted Henry to stay in his

3:08

lane. Also Henry

3:10

wanted to be crowned Emperor and

3:12

Gregory wanted Henry to go

3:15

kindly himself. So the

3:17

resolution was more of a stalemate and

3:20

it turned out that back home

3:22

in Germany Henry still had problems.

3:24

You see anti-king Rudolph wasn't playing

3:26

reindeer games here. He wanted to

3:28

be king and he had

3:31

an army so he continued

3:33

his fight to take Germany and

3:35

Henry had to find a way to stop him if

3:37

he wanted to keep his seat not

3:39

to mention his head and while

3:41

they were fighting it out Gregory

3:43

had problems of his own. You

3:46

see a Norman adventurer named Robert

3:48

Giscard had been gaining fame by

3:50

gobbling up territory and generally kicking

3:52

the hell out of anyone who

3:54

looked at him funny and

3:56

in regards to this conflict he was actually

3:58

a bit of a wildcard. He

4:01

was ostensibly an ally of

4:03

Pope Gregory's. However, during this

4:06

period, he also conquered and

4:08

annexed Bonavento, which was

4:10

actually under the papal umbrella. But

4:13

Gregory was in such a state at this

4:15

period that he didn't make a fuss about

4:17

it, and instead worked hard to stay on

4:19

friendly terms with Robert. Which I

4:22

think was wise, because if that Norman guy

4:24

was willing to steal from the Pope when

4:26

they were on friendly terms, God knows what

4:28

he would do if he thought the Pope

4:31

was hostile to him. And

4:33

besides, giving Gregory his position in

4:35

European politics, what exactly could he

4:37

do? Meanwhile, back

4:39

in Germany, it was

4:41

becoming clear that anti-King Rudolf might have

4:43

been good at convincing people to fight

4:46

for him, but he wasn't great at

4:48

fighting a war. And King

4:50

Henry was. The

4:52

rebels had lost any forward momentum in

4:54

their fight against Henry and actually found

4:57

themselves on the losing side of a

4:59

Bavarian campaign. And without clear

5:01

victories, and without the support

5:03

of the Pope, Rudolf was

5:05

facing a massive morale problem.

5:08

And ultimately, he was forced to bribe

5:10

his supporters with land just to keep

5:13

them from abandoning him. And

5:15

Henry saw his chance to put this

5:17

whole thing to bed. And

5:19

so he sent a message to the

5:22

Pope asking Gregory to excommunicate the anti-King

5:24

Rudolf. And Pope Gregory let

5:26

the call go to voicemail. Now,

5:29

the papacy framed this move as

5:31

neutrality, but history is stuffed

5:33

with people who claim neutrality when they're

5:35

actually trying to hide the fact that

5:37

they've already taken a side. And

5:40

Gregory was probably one of these

5:42

people. He seems

5:44

to have been refusing Henry's requests

5:46

and professing neutrality in

5:48

an effort to give the anti-King some

5:50

space to gather more support and win

5:52

the fight. Gregory

5:55

was buying Rudolf time.

5:58

And it worked. January

6:00

of 1080, Rudolph fought against

6:02

Henry and didn't lose. Now

6:07

to be clear, the outcome of this

6:09

battle wasn't a victory for Rudolph, but

6:12

it was a battle that wasn't a

6:14

complete disaster for the rebels, which given

6:16

how the last few years had been

6:18

going, was almost as good. So

6:21

Rudolph's allies brought word of this almost

6:23

victory to the Pope. Except

6:26

they decided to spice it up a little. Well,

6:29

not just spice. These

6:31

allies took the tale all the

6:33

way to flavor town. And

6:36

the Pope, now thinking that Rudolph

6:38

had decisively won a major victory,

6:40

immediately came off the sidelines and

6:43

excommunicated Henry and declared that he

6:45

wasn't a king. Again.

6:48

But it wasn't long before Gregory realized

6:50

he'd been lied to. And

6:52

even worse, it was also clear that

6:55

he had misread the situation in Rome

6:57

as well. Because he found

6:59

himself under attack by his own people. Basically

7:02

they were arguing that the grounds of

7:05

this excommunication were shaky as hell and

7:07

possibly downright illegal. And they

7:09

were kind of right. Meanwhile,

7:12

Henry was moving quickly. After

7:14

all, this wasn't the first time the Pope excommunicated

7:16

him and declared that he wasn't a king. At

7:19

this point in his life, it was just another day

7:21

at the office. So Henry

7:23

got a bunch of bishops together

7:25

and deposed Gregory. Again. And

7:29

the elected Archbishop Wibbert of Ravenna

7:31

as the candidate for new Pope.

7:34

Now Pope Wibbert isn't exactly the

7:36

kind of name that inspires hearts and

7:38

minds. It seems like a video game back in

7:40

the 80s. However,

7:43

anti-Pope Clement III? Yeah,

7:46

that's way better. And so

7:48

Henry promised newly named anti-Pope Clement

7:50

III that he would lead his

7:52

forces to Rome and plonk him

7:54

down in the holy city. And

7:57

so all of a sudden Gregory found himself in

7:59

a really... tight spot. But

8:01

at the same time, beyond calling

8:03

Clement names and demanding that Ravenna

8:05

get a new Archbishop, there wasn't

8:07

much he could do. Gregory

8:10

just had to hope that Rudolph,

8:12

with his army shining so bright,

8:14

would fight the Church's war tonight.

8:17

And to be fair, Rudolph was

8:19

indeed putting up a hell of a

8:22

fight. And at the Battle of

8:24

Elster, in the fall of 1080, anti-King

8:27

Rudolph fought against King Henry.

8:30

And finally, he found an

8:32

honest-to-God victory. Henry's

8:35

army was thoroughly routed, with many

8:37

of the King's forces drowning in

8:39

their panicked flight, and the

8:41

King himself was forced to flee for his life.

8:44

Anti-King Rudolph, at long

8:46

last, had won. Well,

8:50

militarily, he won. Personally,

8:54

he lost a lot. First

8:56

his hand, and then his life. Oops.

9:01

And many people looked at this

9:03

and determined, rather understandably, that this

9:06

was divine judgment. And in

9:08

the face of that, the rebellion quickly

9:10

collapsed. A few of

9:12

the rebels tried to keep it together, including a

9:14

guy named Herman, but no one

9:16

was all that thrilled with the prospect

9:19

of anti-King Herman, so the rebellion was

9:21

done. The anti-King was

9:23

dead, long dead the

9:25

anti-King. And

9:27

that meant that Gregory had

9:29

gone all in on a

9:31

movement that no longer existed.

9:35

And in 1081, with

9:37

the rebels defeated, King Henry

9:39

had some free time on his hands, so

9:42

he turned his attention back to Rome. A

9:45

Rome that was basically defenseless, thanks to

9:47

the fact that in the previous year,

9:50

Henry had kicked the bejesus out of

9:52

the Tuscan army. And

9:54

so he marched to Rome, and pretty

9:56

much no one was available to stop

9:59

him. However, Within. A couple

10:01

months it was starting to become clear

10:03

that the people of Rome were loyal

10:05

to Gregory and not Henry, er, Clement.

10:08

So. The king was forced to retreat. First.

10:10

To Northern Italy and the back

10:13

to Germany Because surprise, he was

10:15

facing even more rebellions within his

10:17

own territory. And it was

10:19

somewhere around this point that

10:21

that Norman scoundrel, Robert Giscard

10:23

had second thoughts about what

10:25

had happened at Benevento. And.

10:28

So we decided to return it to the

10:30

Papacy, which suggests that actually Pope Gregory made

10:32

the right call in avoiding a beef with

10:34

this guy. But. At the same

10:36

time. You. Don't really get the sense

10:38

that Gregory had all that much power in

10:40

this relationship. Then. In

10:43

the following year of Ten Eighty

10:45

Two, King Henry tried to evict

10:47

Pope Gregory again, and he laid

10:49

siege to the Holy City. And.

10:51

See, just take a while. So while

10:54

he went off to ravage the Italian

10:56

countryside anti Pope Clement, with the one

10:58

commanding the besieging forces outside the Holy

11:01

City. Just. As I assume Jesus

11:03

would have done. Me: While

11:05

the Byzantine Emperor because yeah,

11:07

this also involves Byzantium, had

11:09

a huge beef with Robert

11:12

Giscard, who was the Pope's

11:14

ally. And. So we set a

11:16

bunch a cast a Henry to fund

11:18

the campaign to evict and replace Pope

11:20

Gregory. And he also said a bunch

11:22

a cast specifically for taking the hell

11:24

out of the Pope's Norman friend, Robert.

11:27

And with all that money and

11:29

hand, Henry started bribing the bridge

11:31

jesus out of the Roman officials

11:33

and nobles. An anti

11:35

Pope Clement, at the same time

11:37

was busy undermining the Pope by

11:39

talking shit about him to cardinals

11:41

and bishops. It was absolute

11:44

religious chaos over there. And

11:46

it was at that point that Auto started

11:49

to get the idea that he could be

11:51

the new Pope if he gave it a

11:53

shot. And. Maybe now

11:55

you can see why. Make.

11:58

Sense. Okay, so

12:01

let's set messy people politics aside

12:03

and get back to messy English

12:05

and Norm in politics. And

12:08

at the center of it in Ten

12:10

Eighty Two. Was. Wealth. The

12:13

cold hard truth of European feudalism

12:16

is that the nobles can never

12:18

be rich enough. They. Could

12:20

never hold enough land. They.

12:22

Could never have enough titles. It

12:25

didn't matter if he had more money than they

12:27

could ever spend in a lifetime nor more

12:29

lands the naked ever visit. The. Still

12:31

needed more. In,

12:33

this wasn't because they are interested in

12:36

the actual land mirror acquiring. As.

12:38

We've seen with the Normans the

12:40

my be actively disinterested in the

12:42

lands they were stealing. And

12:44

let's not even mention how they felt about the

12:46

people that actually lived on those lands. Even.

12:50

When the nobles took the time to

12:52

feign interesting governing as William and Done.

12:55

It becomes quickly apparent that the

12:57

real goal for many of them

12:59

is extracting wealth. And while

13:01

the medieval nobility haven't yet figured out

13:03

how to acquire a property loaded down

13:06

with that through obscure financial products strip

13:08

for parts and then declared bankrupt in

13:10

order to enjoy a tax write off.

13:13

What? Many of them were doing wasn't all

13:15

that far off. And the

13:17

most visceral, really shocking example of

13:19

this with the increasing seizure of

13:22

com and land. Land that

13:24

the people were living on nord

13:26

near to and had shared for

13:28

generations in order to feed and

13:30

house themselves. But. Was now

13:32

been declared off limits and only for

13:35

the exclusive private use of the rich

13:37

guy who claimed it. A.

13:39

While that type of seizure is

13:41

shocking and immediately noticeable, Land.

13:44

Of all kinds was coming under this new

13:46

type of heiress to credit go. And.

13:49

When you look at the extractive

13:51

taxation system and the predatory land

13:53

acquisition schemes, You. can see

13:55

plenty of examples where individuals as

13:57

well as entire communities where him

14:00

impoverished for the benefit of the primary

14:02

estate of the noble who is wielding

14:04

that system. And this

14:06

culture masquerading as an economic system

14:08

was a major driving force of

14:11

the downward social pressure that

14:13

impacted even the noble classes that

14:15

were carrying it out. It

14:18

was why children had fewer opportunities

14:20

and were experiencing a harsher economic

14:22

reality than their parents. Not

14:25

because the younger generations were lazy, just

14:27

because as the wealthy competed with each

14:29

other for a bigger slice of the

14:31

pie, by the sheer physics

14:33

of the thing, that meant there was

14:35

less left for everyone else. And

14:38

those without access to the halls of power,

14:41

those without armies and fancy

14:43

titles, were the ones

14:45

most likely to find their meager little

14:48

slices reduced even further. As

14:51

for why the rich were doing this, well,

14:54

while they weren't worried that their kids might

14:56

starve thanks to the imposition of things like

14:58

royal forests, these still had

15:01

worries. Every time their

15:03

peers gained new land or titles, that

15:06

put pressure on them to keep up. If

15:09

all your peers are expanding their wealth, and

15:12

you're not, well, one

15:14

day you might wake up and

15:16

discover they are no longer your

15:18

peers. They own you.

15:21

And as nobles, they will have

15:24

seen firsthand that once you fall down

15:26

the social ladder, it is

15:28

incredibly hard to climb back up. Especially

15:31

as their former peers look to

15:33

maintain their standing by taking even

15:35

more of the available pie. So

15:39

the rich were hoarding wealth like dragons,

15:41

not just out of greed, but also

15:43

likely out of fear of what might

15:46

happen if they didn't. And

15:48

some of William's companions were

15:51

absolute savants at this. We've

15:54

already mentioned the near cosmic levels of

15:56

wealth of Hugh Lupus and Alan Rufus,

15:59

both... leveraging their pre-existing wealth

16:01

and titles, as well as their

16:03

proximity to William and their comfortability

16:06

with conquest and slaughter, to expand

16:08

their holdings to an absurd degree.

16:11

And one where Lupus's living descendants

16:13

are some of the richest people

16:15

in the modern UK. But

16:18

they were far from alone in doing

16:20

this. Another figure of

16:22

Williams Court was Roger de Beaumont.

16:25

And he also managed to wield his social

16:27

status to attain wealth that not even a

16:29

thousand camels could carry through the eye of

16:31

a needle. This guy

16:33

rode the wave of Williams conquest

16:35

and he built a cross-channel real

16:37

estate empire. His

16:40

developing dynasty held substantial properties

16:42

in Leicestershire and Warwickshire, in

16:44

addition to his already sizable

16:47

estates in Normandy. And

16:50

recently he made some new

16:52

acquisitions. You see, there

16:54

were paths for the rich to get

16:57

richer other than just conquest and war.

17:00

For example, there were also

17:02

corporate mergers, by which I mean

17:05

marriages. And so

17:07

Roger had married his son Robert to

17:09

Adelina of Mulan, who was the daughter

17:12

of Count Waller in the third. And

17:15

thanks to feudal succession, that meant

17:17

now his son Robert was the

17:19

Count of Mulan. And

17:21

as such, delivered the dynasty's

17:24

substantial properties in French Vexen.

17:26

And this in turn meant that

17:29

de Beaumont's growing real estate empire

17:31

was no longer simply cross-channel Norman

17:33

holdings. It now stretched

17:35

into the territory of the King of France

17:38

as well. Beaumont

17:40

was setting up a dynasty

17:42

that would dominate cross-channel politics

17:44

for generations. And

17:46

this sort of thing was happening all over

17:49

the place. Including within

17:51

the palace at Rouen. You

17:54

see, at this point, William's conflict

17:57

with Count Folcavonjou and the rebels

17:59

of Maine. had been

18:01

resolved somehow. I

18:03

was unable to find a blow-by-blow account

18:05

of the event and instead only found

18:07

sporadic comments about armies and sieges, but

18:10

it does seem that in the end

18:12

a papal legate got involved. Because

18:15

even though Pope Gregory was totally on

18:17

the ropes in Rome, he was still

18:19

getting involved in other people's business. And

18:22

if I had to guess, I'd say he

18:24

was probably hoping that if William's fight with

18:26

fault came to an end, he might send

18:28

some Normans to Rome to deal with Henry.

18:30

But that's just a guess. Either

18:33

way, the legate mediated some form

18:35

of settlement and William was

18:37

able to reassert control over Maine, which

18:40

did in fact give William some

18:42

free time. But he didn't

18:45

go to Rome. Instead, he

18:47

went back to Rouen and

18:49

he started to work on a corporate merger of

18:51

his own. And this time

18:53

he was focusing on northern France. To

18:57

quote historian David Bates, while

19:00

William arranged a fair number

19:02

of marriages, quote, it must

19:04

be significant that the only

19:06

two marriages that actually ever

19:08

took place involved northern

19:10

French territorial princes, a

19:13

reflection surely of where William identified

19:15

the most serious threat, end quote.

19:18

So yet again, we're seeing marriages

19:21

being wielded to acquire wealth and

19:23

head off threats. And

19:25

count theobald the third of

19:28

luat was a very powerful

19:30

French aristocrat. He had

19:32

a ton of land throughout France, including

19:35

lands that were sitting very close

19:37

to William's. But

19:40

theobald's eldest son, Stephen,

19:42

was unmarried. So that

19:44

was good news for William. But it

19:47

also does make me wonder what was going on

19:49

with Stephen, because the guy was in his

19:51

late 30s. And while getting married

19:53

late in life is pretty common these

19:55

days, And there were strategic reasons

19:58

for holding on to that particular political. Hard.

20:00

It could also be a sign of

20:02

something else going on with Stephen. But.

20:05

Whatever. Nobody can ignore

20:07

the can't see a bald was

20:10

getting old and Stephen was next

20:12

in line and unmarried. The.

20:14

William wanted to get in on that and

20:16

he had just the daughter in mind. Though

20:19

you might be thinking that he went

20:22

with Constance, who was unmarried and about

20:24

thirty years old. But. No.

20:27

While Constants was the daughter of

20:29

William, she was born when volume

20:31

was a duke. And. I

20:34

guess that wasn't good enough. It's

20:36

a William offered up his youngest

20:38

daughter who was born when he

20:40

was a king. A. Dell.

20:47

And due to magical birth status,

20:49

this made her a much more

20:51

prestigious match. Now unfortunately

20:53

it was also a match that even

20:56

by the standards of the time, was

20:58

a bit too early. Adele

21:00

was only fourteen. So.

21:02

To keep the marriage from being creepy

21:04

and predatory, William set up a patrol.

21:07

A. Dell would have to wait until she

21:09

was sixteen to marry a guy who

21:11

was nearly forty years old. Nice.

21:15

I mean, what red blooded teenage girl does

21:17

it? one? a man who throws out his

21:19

back every other week because he accidently slept

21:21

wrong. And. Possibly adding salt

21:23

in the wound. Constants actually got

21:25

married a few years later to

21:27

Alan Forget, the Duke of Britney,

21:29

who was about her own age.

21:32

Medieval marriage is weird, but if you

21:34

set aside the stark reality of what

21:36

these marriages would have meant for the

21:39

women being sold into them, You.

21:41

Can see the politics of what the

21:43

men who controlled their lives were playing.

21:46

William. Was trading his

21:48

daughters lives in exchange for

21:50

an increase in his political

21:52

and social position. Now.

21:54

normally i'd say he was doing

21:56

this to increases dynasties position by

21:58

giving how he behaved with his

22:00

firstborn, I really wonder how

22:03

William felt about his dynasty. So

22:05

yeah, during this period William

22:07

was doing pretty typical ruler

22:10

stuff. Charters, land grants, lawsuits,

22:12

daughter selling, but he

22:14

was also doing some not so typical ruler

22:16

stuff. For example, it turned

22:18

out there was an issue with the ordeal of

22:20

iron. And if

22:23

you're not familiar, this was the practice

22:25

of settling legal disputes by making people

22:27

carry hot iron around in their hands.

22:31

And well, it turned

22:33

out there was a problem. Not

22:35

with the logic of the whole thing, no,

22:38

with the special iron that needed to be

22:40

used. You see, you can't

22:42

solve a dispute by making someone carry

22:44

just any old piece of red hot

22:46

iron. That would be

22:48

barbaric and stupid. No,

22:50

this only works if you've got

22:53

a very special piece of iron.

22:55

You had to be carefully selected and

22:58

then blessed by someone of suitable piety.

23:01

That way, when you force some

23:03

poor person to carry the scalding

23:05

iron and suffer third degree burns

23:07

and potentially die from the resulting

23:10

infection, simply because they said, but

23:12

that's not true. Well

23:14

that way, you know it's in service

23:16

of holy justice. And

23:19

the trouble was that an abbot had recently

23:21

got his hands on that bit of iron.

23:24

Because, well, he did something

23:26

to it. We're not told what

23:28

he did to the iron, but it was

23:30

either gone or it was

23:32

no longer holy. I'm going

23:34

to assume he just sold it or melted it down, but

23:37

you know, who knows for sure. But

23:39

whatever happened to that holy iron, now they

23:42

needed a replacement. And so they reached out

23:44

to the Archbishop of Rouen, who

23:46

saw an opportunity. The

23:48

truth was the Archbishop was not

23:50

thrilled that the abbey was making

23:52

people carry around hot iron to

23:54

settle legal disputes. The

23:56

Archbishop felt it would be much better.

24:00

if he was the one making people

24:02

carry around hot iron to settle legal

24:04

disputes. Yeah. And

24:06

this was such a problem that William

24:08

was forced to go and sit in

24:11

attendance as these holy men fought over

24:13

who had the right to permanently scar,

24:15

maim, or kill people with a bit

24:17

of hot metal in the name of

24:20

Jesus Christ, Amen. And

24:22

even though this was a huge

24:24

dispute, apparently no one was

24:26

making the abbot or the archbishop

24:28

carry hot iron to find the

24:30

truth of the matter, which seems

24:32

like the obvious solution to me.

24:36

Anyway, eventually the abbot won, and

24:38

I assume he went back to

24:40

torturing members of the public with

24:42

his newly blessed bit of iron.

24:45

And that rounds out 1082. Good

24:47

times. And as

24:49

we enter 1083, records

24:51

about William and his movements become

24:54

sparse, but it does appear

24:56

that he made a visit back to

24:58

England, which given that Scotland, Wales, and

25:00

Maine had all been dealt with, it

25:02

was probably just a routine visit. But

25:05

at the same time, I really wonder how

25:07

Matilda felt about her husband dropping by for

25:09

a visit at this point. Unfortunately

25:12

we're not told, and instead we're just

25:14

informed that there was an issue that

25:17

needed the king's oversight. A

25:19

weird issue. An

25:21

issue that once again involved

25:23

the church. You

25:25

see, William had been installing continental

25:27

nobles and churchmen all over

25:30

England, and when Lanfrank

25:32

deposed the English abbot affel moth

25:34

of Glastonbury, William installed

25:36

a Norman monk in his place,

25:39

Brother Thurstan of Caen, who

25:42

was now Abbot Thurstan of

25:44

Glastonbury. And well,

25:48

Abbot Thurstan had a lot in

25:50

common with our old friend Abbot

25:52

Turrld. Lordrick describes him

25:54

as shameless. Momsbury

25:56

tells us that he was indiscreet

25:59

and unwieldy. worthy and engaged

26:01

in acts of folly. And

26:03

a lot is implied there, but unfortunately they

26:05

don't give us an accounting of what these

26:08

acts of folly were. Instead,

26:10

they just jump straight to his most

26:12

serious charge, which was also the one

26:14

that William was brought in to deal

26:16

with. And by bringing in the king,

26:18

you know that this was a big

26:20

deal, and at the core

26:22

of it was the critical issue of

26:25

mismatched musical tastes. You

26:28

see, the monks of Glasterbury used

26:30

the Gregorian chant, which is

26:33

a close harmony style of chanting

26:35

that honestly, if you're imagining monks

26:37

chanting right now, you're probably imagining

26:39

the Gregorian style. And this

26:41

method of chant was named in honor of Pope

26:43

Gregory. Not the seven. The

26:46

second. The one who was pope

26:48

in the early 700s. So

26:50

this type of chanting was old. Like

26:52

five Gregs old. And

26:55

Thurstan hated it. You

26:58

see, it turns out that back home in Normandy,

27:00

they had their own type of chant. And

27:03

these dirty English monks needed to

27:05

stop using their stupid ugly Gregorian

27:07

chant, which was never going to

27:09

catch on by the way, and

27:11

instead used the much more civilized

27:13

Norman chant, which we're told was

27:15

developed by a monk from Ficombe.

27:18

And because it was a Norman monk, he

27:20

was of course named William. And

27:23

so Thurstan was like, switch over to

27:25

the new style dorks. Unfortunately the

27:27

monks of Glasterbury hadn't yet listened to

27:29

the demo tape coming out of Ficombe.

27:31

So they had no idea what Thurstan

27:34

was on about, nor could they

27:36

do what was requested. So

27:38

they continued to worship in the style

27:40

that their brothers had done for literally

27:42

hundreds of years. And

27:44

so faced with this, what did Abbott Thurstan

27:46

do? Did he talk to them to

27:48

find out what the problem was? Did

27:51

he teach them the Norman chant? Did

27:53

he try and come to some sort of understanding

27:55

with the monks under his care? Did

27:58

he bring William over from Ficombe? and

28:00

host a sort of ecclesiastical band camp.

28:04

God no! He was

28:06

a conquest-era Norman abbot, and so

28:08

he solved his problems in the

28:10

Norman style. He waited

28:12

until the monks, quote, least expected it,

28:14

end quote. And on that

28:17

day, while the monks were chanting,

28:19

he charged into the abbey with

28:21

a gang of soldiers. The

28:23

monks, terrified by the sudden appearance

28:26

of heavily armed soldiers, panicked and

28:28

fled into the church. But

28:30

abbot Thurstan and his gang chased after them,

28:33

and they found the poor monks literally

28:35

clinging to the altar in terror.

28:38

Momsbury tells us that as

28:40

the soldiers attacked, one

28:42

of the monks was impaled by

28:45

a spear against the altar. And

28:47

in that moment, I guess the

28:49

monks realized that God helps those

28:51

who help themselves, so they grabbed

28:54

anything they could, benches, candles, whatever

28:56

was on hand, and they started

28:58

beating back the attacking soldiers. And

29:01

thus, the first Glastonbury Festival was

29:03

on. We're told

29:05

it was absolute chaos in there. The

29:07

soldiers were firing arrows and throwing darts

29:09

wildly, killing another of the monks, wounding

29:12

14 others, and damaging

29:14

a ton of property within the church.

29:17

Other records claim actually they killed three monks

29:19

and wounded 18. The

29:21

sources vary. But however many monks

29:23

were killed and wounded within the church,

29:26

I'm pretty sure it was more than you're

29:28

allowed. And we're told that

29:30

some of the soldiers were also taking wounds

29:32

themselves, presumably from the monks

29:35

who were niding them a bit

29:37

clumsily with candlesticks and crosses. So

29:39

eventually, the soldiers pulled back. I'm

29:42

guessing it wasn't because of the casualties, since

29:44

Momsbury makes it quite clear that the monks

29:46

were on the losing side when it came

29:48

to injuries and deaths. And I

29:50

have to imagine that after they started

29:52

impaling monks against the altar of the

29:54

church, some of the soldiers

29:57

started to wonder what Big J would think

29:59

about this. Either way

30:01

though, they pulled back, and the

30:03

monks were all, That's it, I'm telling

30:05

the king. And so, a

30:08

trial was held, and we're told in the

30:10

end that they found, quote, the abbot was

30:12

most to blame, end quote. Which,

30:15

yeah, obviously. He

30:18

and his boys literally impaled a monk

30:20

to the holy altar. That's

30:22

pretty blameworthy. But,

30:25

while you would expect a harsh sentence for

30:27

the murder of a holy man within a

30:29

church, it seems that

30:31

William was a forward-thinking king, and

30:34

so he adopted a far more ecclesiastical

30:36

solution. He just

30:38

moved Thurstan to another church. Nice.

30:43

As for the monks who survived the attack, they

30:46

were sent into confinement in several

30:48

cathedrals and monasteries. We're not

30:50

told which ones they were, but given

30:53

how William handled previous disputes with English

30:55

monks, I'm guessing they were almost certainly

30:57

Norman ones. Where they would

30:59

no doubt now have to learn to sing

31:02

in the style of that random guy from

31:04

Ficompe. And that is kinda

31:06

how these last two years went. Charters,

31:09

church drama, wedding drama,

31:12

land grants. And, as I've

31:14

mentioned in the past, William appears

31:16

to have been a bit of a

31:18

stress-heater. So I'm also sure there

31:21

were more than a few banquets thrown in there

31:23

as well. Because listening to

31:25

men in robes beefing over whose

31:27

chant was better was probably really

31:29

annoying. And then, another

31:32

stressor was thrown into the mix. At

31:35

some point around here, concerns

31:37

began to grow about the health

31:39

of Queen Matilda. Now,

31:42

as I've mentioned, our records for

31:44

this period are very sparse. We

31:46

don't know the precise timeline or

31:48

movements of William or Matilda. As

31:51

such, it's hard to know whether this all started

31:53

when she was in England, or

31:55

if it began when she was back in Normandy.

31:58

All we know is that By the fall

32:00

of 1083, Matilda was

32:02

back in Normandy and people

32:05

were worried. As

32:07

for why they were worried? That's

32:09

tough to say because we're in this

32:11

strange period of William's reign where our

32:14

sources suddenly start getting very tight-lipped. Well,

32:17

most of them do. Momsbury is

32:19

a bit different and he has

32:21

quite the tale to tell. But

32:24

heads up, this one's a bit grim. So

32:27

Momsbury, who wrote his account about

32:29

40 years after these events, mentions

32:32

that people in his time were still

32:34

talking about this affair that William had

32:36

in his later years with the daughter

32:38

of a priest. And

32:41

apparently Matilda caught on to what was

32:43

happening and so she had her

32:45

people deal with the girl. We're

32:48

told she was hamstrung, which

32:51

is absolutely gruesome. When

32:54

William found out about this, he

32:56

had the knife-wielding servant exiled and

32:59

then he beat Matilda with a

33:01

bridle so severely that she later

33:03

died. The

33:05

phrase Momsbury uses is, quote, scourge

33:07

to death with a bridle, end

33:09

quote. Now Momsbury

33:11

goes through this entire story but

33:14

also tells us we shouldn't believe

33:16

it. And to be

33:18

clear, we didn't invent lying and slander

33:20

in the modern era, so it is

33:23

entirely possible that people just really hated

33:25

William and were saying as many

33:27

awful things as they could about him. But

33:30

Momsbury's explanation for why we shouldn't

33:32

believe this story is not

33:35

as convincing as he seems to think it

33:37

was. He tells us that

33:39

the royal couple were on good terms, though

33:42

he does admit that, quote, a

33:44

slight disagreement arose between them in

33:46

latter times on account of their

33:48

son Robert, end quote. And

33:51

if attempting to mutilate your wife's friend

33:53

and demanding the execution of your son,

33:56

followed by a long solo trip to

33:58

Germany and an even and longer

34:00

one to England counts as

34:02

a slight disagreement, I

34:04

would hate to see what a big fight

34:07

looks like. And

34:09

honestly, a big fight might look

34:11

like the story that Momsbury initially

34:13

described. But he

34:15

goes on and he offers his

34:17

most ironclad proof of innocence. You

34:20

see, despite the slight disagreement over

34:23

Robert, Matilda was buried

34:25

with great pomp and magnificence,

34:28

and William cried in public, quote,

34:31

for many days, showing how keenly

34:33

he felt her loss, end quote.

34:37

And I don't know. I'm

34:40

not saying that the rumors of the

34:42

beating were true, but tears and a

34:44

fancy burial could just as easily be

34:46

proof of remorse. And

34:48

I think we have to consider here that

34:50

this wasn't the only story we have of

34:53

William beating Matilda. You

34:55

might remember that the Chronicle of Tours

34:57

reported that William beat Matilda severely when

34:59

she first refused his marriage proposal. Furthermore,

35:03

it's not like domestic violence was outlawed

35:05

in the 11th century. Far

35:08

from it, in the 11th century, physical

35:10

violence was seen as a legitimate method

35:12

to correct

35:14

your wife's behavior or

35:17

even just address displeasure. This

35:20

was not a great time for women.

35:23

And the man that Matilda had

35:25

married was an extraordinarily violent man.

35:28

And on top of all that, I find

35:31

it very strange that Momsbury brought

35:33

up the story unprompted and then

35:35

asked them to trust him that

35:37

it didn't happen because William's just

35:39

a good dude, and

35:41

then provides us with no alternative

35:43

explanation for why she died. It's

35:47

weird. And if it didn't

35:49

happen, then I'm annoyed that Momsbury even brought

35:51

it up because now it's in my head

35:54

and it's in your head too. So

35:57

what actually happened to Matilda? Well,

36:01

the Chronicle is no help. It

36:03

simply reports that she died with no

36:05

explanation of what happened and then goes

36:07

on to talk about recent taxes that

36:09

were levied. Thanks guys.

36:13

Fortunately, Orderick, who was riding really

36:15

close in time to Momsbury, took

36:18

a break from trash talking his critics

36:20

to share his version of Matilda's death.

36:23

And he tells us that Queen Matilda was

36:25

back in Normandy at Cannes in the fall

36:28

of 1083. And

36:30

she was suffering from a lingering sickness that

36:32

just was not getting any better. And

36:35

people were getting worried. Now

36:37

we do see her appearing in charters in

36:39

Cannes, so she was there. And

36:42

apparently she was well enough to engage in

36:44

some public functions. But then

36:46

we have Orderick telling us that her

36:48

health was so bad that Matilda was

36:50

tearfully confessing her sins and preparing for

36:52

death. Which is odd and seems like

36:54

a contradiction. But then we

36:57

have other records that report that she

36:59

bequeathed her crown and scepter to La

37:01

Trinidad in Cannes. Which suggests

37:03

that either she really was sick

37:06

or if that incident that Momsbury related

37:08

really did happen, it

37:10

wasn't followed by an immediate death, but

37:12

rather something that was more fatal in the long

37:15

term. Without information though,

37:17

it's impossible to know. And

37:19

none of our sources are sharing

37:22

anything regarding what Matilda's symptoms were.

37:25

Nor the nature of the illness, nor

37:27

what was being done to treat her. Now

37:30

interestingly, Abbott Baldwin of

37:32

Barry St. Edmunds is reported

37:35

as being in Cannes during the same

37:37

period. And that actually might

37:39

lend credence to some sort of medical

37:41

issue, either illness related or William related.

37:44

Because other records report that

37:46

the rural household often called

37:48

upon Abbott Baldwin to provide

37:50

medical expertise when things looked

37:52

serious. However, the

37:54

record of Abbott Baldwin's presence in

37:56

Cannes doesn't say anything about him

37:58

providing medical advice. Matilda with medical

38:01

care. Nor anything

38:03

about the queen being sick at all. So

38:07

what was going on there? Like

38:09

I keep saying, it's impossible to know for

38:11

sure. I mean Matilda was only

38:14

52 years old, but at the same time,

38:16

they were a hard 52. The

38:19

poor woman had at least 9 children

38:22

that we know of. Possibly 10.

38:24

Not including any miscarriages. And

38:27

that will put a lot of strain

38:29

on the body. Especially without modern medicine.

38:32

And then add to that all the other illnesses

38:34

that can take a person before their time. I

38:37

mean people die in their 50s even now

38:39

with our access to modern medicine and technology.

38:42

So it's entirely possible that Matilda caught

38:44

an infectious disease and just couldn't shake

38:46

it. Or had a stroke.

38:49

Or just about anything else that can befall

38:51

a human body. It's

38:54

also possible that her famously violent

38:56

husband with multiple tales of violence

38:58

towards her had finally

39:00

killed her. It's

39:02

a big question mark on this page of history.

39:05

And I'm not sure if we ever can truly

39:07

know the final chapter of Matilda's story, given

39:10

the way that these stories came down to us. But

39:13

however it came about, on

39:15

November 2nd of 1083, Queen Matilda, the glue that

39:17

was holding

39:21

this dumpster fire of a family

39:23

together, died. And

39:26

she was buried at Cannes with an

39:28

enormous funeral. And

39:30

immediately afterwards, her son,

39:32

Robert Kurt Hose, got

39:35

the fellas together and left Williams

39:37

Court. He was

39:39

done with the bastard. If

39:42

you have any questions, comments, or

39:44

concerns, you can reach me at

39:46

the britishhistorypodcast.com. And

39:48

if you'd like to sign up for membership, you can

39:50

do so at the britishhistorypodcast.com. Thanks for listening.

40:00

I remember.