0:02

A listener production. Hello,

0:08

Sasha Barbagat with you. Welcome to The

0:10

Briefing. You might think the days of

0:12

witch trials are long behind us. While

0:15

they were a tragic and shameful chapter

0:17

of human history, we have evolved and

0:19

no more now than we did 500

0:22

years ago. But

0:24

did you know there are people

0:26

right now being hunted, persecuted and

0:28

killed over fears they're witches? We

0:31

did a study looking just at

0:33

reports on the internet and found

0:35

there were reports across 60 different

0:37

countries. So it's certainly a phenomenon

0:39

that is widespread and it doesn't seem to

0:41

be one that is going away either. We'll

0:43

talk about that in the second half of

0:45

this episode. First though, let's get into today's

0:48

biggest news stories with Bensi on Siebert. It's

0:50

Tuesday, the 7th of May. Good

0:54

morning, Sasha. For the first time

0:56

since November, Hamas has accepted a

0:58

ceasefire deal to pause the fighting

1:01

in Gaza. But it might

1:03

not go through though with an

1:05

Israeli official saying no ceasefire had

1:07

been agreed. The unnamed

1:09

official also told Reuters news agency

1:11

the deal includes far-reaching conclusions that

1:13

Israel does not accept, calling it

1:16

a ruse intended to make Israel

1:18

look like the side refusing a

1:20

deal. All very confusing.

1:23

In a White House briefing, National Security

1:25

spokesperson John Kirby confirmed the

1:28

US is working through negotiations

1:30

with Israel but he

1:32

couldn't shed much more light either. We

1:34

are at a critical stage right now.

1:37

We got a response from Hamas. Now Director

1:39

Burns is working through that, trying to assess it,

1:42

working with the Israelis. I mean, my

1:44

goodness folks, I don't know that it gets any

1:46

more sensitive than right now and the worst thing

1:48

that we can do is start speculating about what's

1:50

in it. Yeah, and despite the lack of clarity,

1:52

the news has prompted celebrations in the streets of

1:54

Gaza. But while there's been

1:56

this apparent acceptance by Hamas of a

1:58

ceasefire, Israel has... ordered around

2:00

100,000 people to evacuate the

2:03

southernmost city of Rafa ahead

2:05

of its long threatened ground

2:07

invasion. Benzion, also happening today,

2:09

there will be a vote at the United

2:11

Nations as to whether to admit Palestine as

2:13

a full member of the UN. Australia's

2:16

Penny Wong, our foreign minister, will be

2:18

voting. And the reason that

2:20

there will be eyes on this is because

2:22

a number of countries that have Israel as

2:25

an ally are expected to vote on

2:28

whether to accept Palestine as a member of

2:30

the UN. So there

2:32

will be eyes on that vote today.

2:36

The parents of Australian brothers

2:38

Jake and Callum Robinson have

2:40

formally identified their sons' bodies

2:42

after the pair were murdered in Mexico. They'd

2:46

been travelling in the state of Baja

2:48

with an American friend when they went

2:50

missing late last month. After

2:52

three bodies were found down well. Local

2:55

authorities have since charged three people

2:57

with forced kidnapping. They're also expected

2:59

to be accused of murder. It's

3:02

believed the killed trio had been

3:04

victims of an attempted theft and

3:07

were shot execution style when they

3:09

resisted. There are also questions

3:11

about whether there was cartel involvement.

3:14

Callum's girlfriend has posted a tribute for

3:16

him saying her heart is shattered

3:18

into a million pieces. Very sad stuff.

3:21

Yeah, this is such an awful story.

3:23

And honestly, the footage of

3:25

the parents coming out of the morgue in

3:27

Mexico is so distressing

3:29

because you know, you send your kids

3:32

off for an amazing adventure and this

3:34

horrific thing happens to them. Your heart

3:36

just goes out to them. Local

3:39

surface did hold a paddle out vigil

3:41

at San Miguel Beach. And

3:43

there's a lot of anger

3:45

and I suppose hurt among the

3:47

locals because one was interviewed

3:50

and they said, you know, we told them to

3:52

go to this place. We said it was safe

3:54

and that they should visit. So they feel

3:56

guilt, which is obviously misplaced, but you

3:58

know, you can understand. And just

4:00

how devastated even the local community is

4:02

at what's happened here.

4:04

And Baja is one of Mexico's

4:07

most violent states, but where the

4:09

brothers were in Ensenada, that

4:12

area is considered safer. But

4:14

obviously risks exist, especially in

4:16

Mexico all the time, no matter where you are.

4:20

Donald Trump has been scolded by

4:22

Justice Juan Merchant, who's overseeing his

4:24

criminal trial after the former

4:27

president violated a gag order for the 10th

4:29

time. Justice Merchant

4:31

said he would consider sending Trump

4:33

to jail for any further violations.

4:36

Now he has already fined Trump nine

4:38

times, $1,000 each time, $1,500 Australian. And

4:43

this was because Trump had violated that

4:46

gag order nine times already. Now he's

4:48

done it for a tenth time. And

4:50

the judge said this seemed to not

4:53

deter him, even though he was getting

4:55

all these fines. This gag

4:57

order prohibits Trump from making public

4:59

comments about the jurors in this

5:01

case, the witnesses and families of

5:03

the judge and prosecutors. This

5:06

criminal trial is over the falsifying of

5:08

business records to cover up a payment,

5:10

hush money payment to porn star Stormy

5:12

Daniels in the lead up to the

5:14

2016 election. Daniels

5:17

claims to have had a sexual encounter with Trump in 2006.

5:20

The interesting thing, Ben Sion, that the judge talked

5:23

about when making this threat of jail again, this

5:25

is the second time he's done it, by the

5:27

way, was that, you know,

5:29

we have to take into account just

5:31

how difficult it would be to lock

5:33

up an ex-president who has a lifetime

5:35

Secret Service detail. So those

5:37

Secret Service officers would then have to be in

5:40

jail with Trump too. Yeah. And prosecutors

5:42

have previously said that Trump is

5:44

actually angling to be jailed

5:46

for a gag order violation because

5:48

that would help make his case

5:50

that this whole thing is a

5:53

witch hunt. We've been talking about witch hunts.

5:55

We'll talk about it more later in the

5:57

episode. But he's not

6:00

a witch hunt. He's obviously trying

6:02

to make this very legal process

6:04

into a very political process as

6:07

he continues to try and

6:09

become the next president of the United States. And

6:13

also in the US it's Met Gala

6:15

Monday. It's an extremely

6:17

bougie charity event and fundraiser for

6:20

the Metropolitan Museum of Arts Costume

6:22

Institute or The Met in New

6:24

York City and is one of

6:26

the most prestigious fashion events of

6:28

the year. The event will kick

6:30

off at 6pm with about 450 attendees. Tickets

6:35

cost around the equivalent of $120,000 Australian dollars for an

6:37

individual. A

6:41

10 seat table starts at $700,000. Bougie

6:44

is right, Bencion. The Met Gala always

6:47

has a theme and that's what people

6:49

love to watch. All the celebs are

6:51

arriving at the event to see how

6:53

on theme their costume is. This

6:56

is exhibition which is what the, you know,

6:58

this celebrates the opening of the annual exhibition

7:00

is called Sleeping Beauty's

7:02

Reawakening Fashion, whatever that means.

7:05

The official dress code is The Garden

7:08

of Time. So maybe some leaf

7:10

detail. I don't know, I'm not a fashion expert. Some

7:13

flowers, I don't know. I want to

7:16

see who comes as a monstera.

7:19

Aussie

7:21

Chris M. Zwirth will be one of the 2024 Met Gala

7:24

hosts along with Zendaya, Jennifer

7:26

Lopez and Bad Bunny. The

7:29

other thing I really want to see

7:31

Bencion is whether Kim Kardashian will be

7:33

there because the editor of Vogue decides

7:35

who goes to this event and that's

7:37

Anna Wintour and we know she's petty

7:39

and last year we saw Kim damage

7:41

that iconic Marilyn Monroe dress. So I

7:43

want to know whether Anna Wintour is

7:45

going to bar Kim from going to

7:47

this event. Silly, it's bougie

7:49

as you said but honestly with everything that goes

7:51

on in the world sometimes it's nice to just have

7:53

a break and to look at some pretty clothes. Thank

7:56

you so much for being here for the headlines Bencion.

7:58

Next up it is our Deep time, looking

8:01

at witch trials that are still happening

8:03

across the globe in 2024. During

8:14

the early modern period, I'm talking from around 1400

8:16

to the 1770s, parts of Europe and North

8:21

America were swept up in witch

8:23

hysteria. Thousands of men and

8:25

women were persecuted by their communities

8:27

who believed they had been practicing

8:29

witchcraft. As many as 60,000 people

8:33

were executed. It was a

8:35

shameful and dark chapter in our history

8:37

and governments around the world have since

8:39

made formal apologies and have even exonerated

8:42

victims. Memorials too have been erected in

8:44

prominent witch hunting locations, including

8:46

at the infamous Salem in

8:49

Massachusetts. It might seem like

8:51

we've moved on from those days, but

8:53

tragically people are still being persecuted for

8:55

witchcraft in places like Sub Saharan Africa,

8:58

India and Papua New Guinea. One

9:00

2020 UN report claims at least 20,000

9:03

so-called witches were killed across

9:05

60 countries between 2009

9:08

and 2019. Who

9:10

is at risk of this? Why are they

9:12

being targeted? And why are we only now

9:15

sitting up and taking notice? Today I'm

9:17

speaking with Professor Miranda Forsythe from the

9:19

School of Regulation and Global Governance at

9:21

ANU to find out. Professor, thanks for

9:23

joining us on the briefing today. Why

9:25

are we still seeing people being hunted

9:28

and hurt and even killed over something

9:30

like witchcraft? It's a

9:32

complex phenomenon and so there are lots

9:34

of reasons for it. But

9:37

generally when things are uncertain,

9:39

when bad events happen, when

9:41

there's unexplained sicknesses and deaths,

9:44

then in many countries people turn to

9:46

ask who has caused this and

9:48

where there is a narrative that sorcerers

9:51

and witches are real, then people

9:53

turn to asking which of their

9:55

neighbours or which of their family

9:57

members might have caused this particular

9:59

matter. Fourteen. So. It's

10:01

actually a phenomenon that is prevalent

10:03

across many parts of the world.

10:06

Together with some colleagues, way out

10:08

with you, the study, looking just

10:10

at reports on the internet and

10:13

sounds. There were reports across sixty

10:15

different countries. So it's certainly a

10:17

phenomenon that is widespread, and it doesn't

10:19

seem to be. One that is going

10:21

away either in that country that I

10:23

his and the most I'm working in

10:25

Papua New Guinea. We say regular

10:28

cases where people. Are accused

10:30

am sometimes. These displaced to

10:32

them being stigmatized or forced away from

10:34

their community that sometimes that late to

10:37

actual cases of physical violence and eight

10:39

and unfortunately torture and death. what other

10:41

countries with he said sixty that's a

10:43

lot is a concentrated in certain regions

10:46

are the kind of pretty widespread. says.

10:48

A lot of cases in India

10:51

and Nepal and in those countries

10:53

and it's mostly targeted. Towards

10:55

women. Whereas. In other

10:58

countries, in parts of Africa,

11:00

then there's quite a wide

11:02

variety of victim classes. In

11:04

some countries, it's particularly children

11:06

who are targeted, so for example,

11:08

it might be. That. A

11:10

Stepmother. Will come into a family

11:13

and so that child of the

11:15

previous. Families. No longer. but

11:17

still he wanted. And so they'll be an

11:19

accusation of witchcraft that would be made against

11:21

that child. I'm in some. Cases as

11:23

well, there are children who exhibit

11:25

tendencies such as bed wetting all

11:28

they just disobedience and so that

11:30

might be taken to a Sheila

11:32

and that he'll a might say,

11:34

well there's evil. Spirits involved and

11:37

so that will lead to the

11:39

accusation coming. Ah, we all saw

11:41

however find these cases in parts

11:43

of the global know so it

11:46

really depends on which countries have

11:48

started counting. So for example in

11:50

the United Kingdom they were a

11:52

few. Cases that

11:54

involve the police finding. the

11:58

corpses of them have children and four

12:00

who had clearly been the victim

12:02

of some kind of a violent

12:04

exorcism. And so that led them

12:06

to really focus on this phenomenon

12:09

and to start counting the cases

12:11

as a way of trying to

12:13

do prevention, to educate the

12:16

social services people about how to

12:18

look out for these kind of cases. And

12:20

so since they started counting in 2012, they've

12:24

been identifying many, many cases.

12:26

Last year, they identified 3,000 cases,

12:30

which is actually more than the cases that

12:32

they've been identifying for, for

12:34

magenta mutilation, for example. And

12:37

I've got colleagues in the United States who

12:39

have just started counting the cases

12:41

there as well. And again, they've

12:43

started to find many, many

12:46

cases often involving children. A

12:48

huge part of the persecution of witches in

12:51

the early modern period, so Salem and

12:53

in Europe as well, it wasn't just

12:55

the courts or the law, but it

12:57

was actually the community around these people

12:59

who were being persecuted. They were the

13:01

ones getting swept up in the hysteria, and

13:04

the law and the court seemed to

13:06

just respond to the community hysteria. How

13:09

different are the modern instances

13:12

of persecuting witchcraft that we're seeing? Is

13:14

it the same sort of deal or is it much

13:16

more secret? It's a lot

13:18

more secret, and you're very right that

13:20

these days, in fact, in most countries,

13:23

the state is opposed to

13:25

the witch hunts and to

13:27

witchcraft accusations. And many

13:29

countries are trying to introduce new laws

13:31

as well to address this problem. So

13:34

it's not something that is sanctioned by the

13:36

state. It's something that is

13:38

a form of collective violence that a

13:40

community will engage in. But because often

13:43

so many people are complicit in that

13:45

violence, then there isn't a reporting to

13:47

the state, or if there is a

13:49

reporting, then it's very difficult to get

13:51

witnesses. And so we find that there

13:53

is a lot of impunity for these

13:56

kinds of cases. Again, where

13:58

I've been working in Papua New Guinea. I

14:00

found that there have been a handful of cases

14:02

that have been prosecuted each year,

14:04

but that is just a drop in the water

14:07

compared to the number of cases that

14:09

are actually going ahead. One

14:11

of the other things that I

14:13

found interesting in Papua New Guinea is

14:15

that although on average about

14:17

50% of the people

14:19

being accused are men and 50% are

14:21

women, when we look at what successful

14:23

prosecutions there have been, then we find

14:26

that about 85% of those cases involve

14:30

male victims. So it shows that

14:32

men are finding it much easier

14:34

to get access to justice for

14:36

these kinds of abuses than women

14:39

are. It's so

14:41

sad. The way you describe it as well,

14:45

it seems rooted in the same ideas of the

14:47

past witch trials that we've seen,

14:49

which I think to most people in Western

14:51

societies go, oh, that was so

14:54

far in the past and no one would ever do that

14:56

anymore, but it seems like the similar sort of ideas

14:59

around it are persisting in certain communities.

15:01

And look, the UN has been looking

15:03

at modern

15:05

day witch persecution. What has it found

15:07

out and what has it recommended? Many

15:10

of the different reporting regimes

15:13

of reporting of human rights abuses

15:16

of the UN have reported from

15:18

time to time on the problem

15:20

of witchcraft accusations and violence. So

15:23

for example, the special rapporteur on

15:25

arbitrary torture and so forth have

15:28

reported on this. So

15:30

it's not a new phenomenon for the

15:32

UN to take notice of. However, in

15:34

2021, the UN for the first time

15:37

published a resolution that

15:39

was specifically addressed through

15:41

harmful practices related to accusations

15:43

of witchcraft and ritual attacks.

15:45

So it was the first time that

15:47

the UN really identified this as a

15:50

particular form of human rights abuse

15:52

that really all of the states across

15:54

the world need to do something about.

15:57

That was then followed by a special

15:59

expert report. report in 2023

16:01

that identified that this is

16:03

widespread across the world, that

16:06

it impacts in particular upon

16:08

women and the elderly, those

16:10

who suffer from other forms

16:12

of disability, children as well,

16:14

and again called upon states

16:17

and also INGOs,

16:20

civil society, everyone really to do

16:23

a part to try to address

16:25

this problem. Because it's not just

16:27

the person who is accused, who

16:29

is impacted, often the person

16:32

who's accused their children will also

16:34

be treated with

16:36

suspicion and sometimes it can lead

16:38

to whole communities fragmenting

16:41

and huge amounts of dislocation. Is

16:44

there a lot of work going into trying

16:46

to stop this? I mean,

16:48

I know you said that it's

16:50

not sanctioned by the states, as

16:52

in countries they're not saying, yep,

16:54

we support this, they're actively against

16:57

it, however, the problem persists. Is

16:59

there, are there task groups, are

17:01

there people going into these communities

17:03

to try and provide education, or

17:06

is nothing really being done in this space on the

17:08

ground to try and stop it? I think

17:10

it's accurate to say that there are ad

17:12

hoc initiatives across the world to

17:14

try to address it, but

17:16

there has certainly been nothing like

17:18

the amount of resources and support

17:20

put into this. It's only

17:23

really a form of human rights

17:25

abuse that is starting to be

17:27

acknowledged by national governments and by

17:29

the UN as well as something

17:31

that really deserves significant attention. So

17:34

what we find is that it's generally

17:36

individuals who are affected in one way

17:38

or another by the issue in their

17:40

particular country, who are going out of

17:42

their way to try to do education,

17:45

to try to look after

17:48

the survivors. And

17:50

these people deserve, all of

17:52

them deserve medals. It's extraordinary the danger

17:54

that they put themselves into and the

17:56

dedication that they show to try to

17:58

address it. this problem,

18:01

to set up safe houses,

18:03

to educate their community to

18:05

try to do broader awareness.

18:07

There are some governments who are doing some excellent

18:10

work, so for example in Papua New Guinea

18:12

there is a national action plan

18:15

around sorcery accusation related violence that has

18:17

been developed and that adopts the approach

18:19

that it really needs to be a

18:22

holistic solution, so we need to think

18:24

about educating our health workers so that

18:26

they can explain the causes of death

18:28

and sickness in a way that don't

18:31

trigger sorcery accusations, that we need to

18:33

think about educating children not to just

18:35

accept these kind of narratives so that

18:37

they can employ critical thinking, that we

18:40

also need to make

18:42

sure that our justice system operates correctly

18:44

so that there are not these problems

18:46

of impunity, but a lot of countries

18:48

as well are not sufficiently

18:51

taking steps or putting the necessary resources

18:54

into addressing the problem. I

18:57

think a lot of people would be horrified to

18:59

hear what's going on in some countries. Thank you

19:01

so much for taking the time to talk to

19:03

us today and explain to us I

19:06

guess the phenomenon of modern-day witch trials.

19:08

Thank you so much for having me

19:10

and thank you for putting the necessary

19:12

focus on this issue. Thanks

19:14

for listening to today's briefing that's all for

19:16

this episode. A reminder we do put out

19:18

full eps of our weekend briefing chats on

19:20

YouTube. You can search Listen to Newsroom to

19:22

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liked this ebb why not share it with

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someone you think might enjoy it too. I'm

19:35

Sasha Barbegatt, see you next time.