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0:36

I'm. Gilbert Cruz editor the New York

0:39

Times Book Review and this is

0:41

the Book Review Podcast. This week

0:43

we have our latest Book Club

0:45

episode. Once again in the Captain's

0:47

chair is our editor, Mj. Frankly

0:49

may have heard him on previous

0:51

episodes in which he and others

0:53

discussed even Copperhead and the Heaven

0:55

and Earth Grocery Store. If you

0:57

have read either of those books

0:59

being have not checked out those

1:01

episodes, please go back and give

1:03

them a listen. This week he

1:05

leads a conversation. About dally older

1:07

teens. Best selling book. Good material

1:09

as always. All plot points in

1:11

themes are fair. Game of your

1:14

spoiler verse be were a read

1:16

the book, save this in your

1:18

cube. Come back and listen. Enjoyed

1:20

the conversation. Hello!

1:24

And welcome to another Book Club episode

1:26

of the Book Review Podcast I'm Mj

1:28

Franklin. I'm an editor here at the

1:30

New York Times Book Review, and this

1:32

week we're chatting about Dolly Hundred Tons

1:35

latest novel. Good material. This is a

1:37

funny introduction because depending on what type

1:39

of reader you are or on what

1:41

type of the Atlantic you are on,

1:43

Dolly Alderton is either a huge, inescapable

1:46

cultural phenomenon to you, or she's a

1:48

writer you've never heard of. Doll.

1:50

The other ten as the author of several

1:53

books. First. She had a memoir

1:55

come out, Caught Everything and About Lows. Then she

1:57

has a novel, caught Ghosts and she has a

1:59

collection of. Collins got Dear Dolly and that

2:01

collection of poems. Hints at why she's known

2:03

in the Uk, but not necessarily known in

2:06

the Us. Before she became an author's she

2:08

made a name for herself, writing columns for

2:10

the Sunday Times for Set of Dating column

2:12

and then she pivoted to a general advice

2:14

column Qadir Dolly. Those. Have

2:17

been running and same for him since

2:19

twenty fifteen and through those columns. Kind

2:21

of ingrained herself and the British side

2:23

guys because they are fun and fleecy

2:25

and officers perspective. But. The

2:27

comes did not run and the you are so American

2:29

readers may be unfamiliar with Dolly. Let

2:32

me change with her new book. Good material

2:34

the book or here to discuss getting a

2:36

little bit busier and the states and during

2:38

me and discussing that but are too great

2:40

colleagues and readers sees. So excited to talk

2:43

to you. First we have Emily, Eight and

2:45

a fellow stuff added are here as a

2:47

book review. I am only I am day

2:49

I'm here representing first time Dolly Alderton Readers

2:52

are meteor. I'm a first on dollars and

2:54

reader but our guest I believe as not.

2:56

so we'll talk about scooping the entry of

2:58

what I'd rather have that but you may

3:01

recognize Emily's voice. From other past episodes

3:03

of the Book Review podcasts Emily I

3:05

believe you are most recently on the

3:07

Best Books or twenty twenty three episode.

3:09

that sounds about right? Yeah I'm uk

3:11

that like stirring very evocative dive into

3:13

dollars and Rosen the best minds and

3:15

love that that is the great great

3:17

narrative non six and so thank you

3:19

for joining us. Also

3:21

with us is Leah Greenblatt Hialeah

3:23

alone Are you done? So excited

3:26

as have to let this that. Leah. Is

3:28

another editor here at the book review

3:30

and Leah at least sir. First time

3:32

on support our science. It is.

3:35

Please be gentle. Always always is

3:37

were amongst friends with Argument Bucks my friends.

3:39

Leah is a great reader. I'm always excited

3:41

to talk with her about bugs but also

3:43

Leah. You lived in London for little bit

3:46

so you know Dolly out at and you

3:48

have a Transatlantic understanding of Dolly Otters and.

3:50

Yes I am so internecine an ssn

3:52

know I'd add see I was I

3:55

was working at of London the summer

3:57

twenty teen when everything I know about

3:59

Lovely Zone and it was in Dolly

4:02

was everywhere. And that was My

4:04

introduction to her was a deep immersion in dolly.

4:06

So you are an expert and

4:08

I'm going to ask and anxiety

4:10

question to you. Which. Is.

4:13

Was. My setup of dollars. correct

4:15

any notes any again them anymore

4:18

assess. It was they try to.

4:20

I would say for an American audience

4:22

it's he saw the knee Somewhere between

4:24

attend as the Snow and maybe a

4:27

Sloan cries is man made sense of

4:29

her generationally says younger than both are

4:31

that it's that next as pop culture

4:34

well as and see and a little

4:36

a little bit elevated I would say

4:38

and a very strong voice as female

4:41

voice of Wasted confides a lot personally

4:43

and that's with Endeared. Her gotta see

4:45

also. Is this blonde girl? Amazon? Assistant

4:48

who. Is very telegenic and you would see

4:50

her face of we were since this tumble of

4:52

curls and she's is She has have a great

4:54

sort of persona for stuff like this. Perfect

4:56

and Asi Feals ever leads. I was

4:58

totally off base without answering this other.

5:00

It was great. I learned a lot

5:02

few things here and. She hasn't a busy

5:05

resume. It's a lot to get sale. True. Or

5:07

we're not talking about her entire resume.

5:09

we're talking about specifically the book. Good

5:11

material. I'm gonna start off as I

5:13

am known to do a little plot

5:15

synopsis and that I promise I will

5:17

start monologue a camera going to talk

5:19

it bothers as and groups are from

5:22

as okay but. Thought Synopsis: good

5:24

material as Dolly altered and riff on

5:26

the rom com. I say it's a

5:28

risk because does. This book is humorous

5:31

and deals with ideas of romance is

5:33

not really about the experience of love,

5:35

it's about the experience as a terrible,

5:38

horrible, no good, very bad breakup. We

5:40

follow Andy as thirty five year old

5:42

street white English comedian who has just

5:45

been broken up with by his girlfriend

5:47

job. They have been dating for a

5:49

few years and to break up causes

5:52

Andy to spiral his completely. Lost.

5:54

That's for a few reasons. First.

5:56

he doesn't know why done broke up with him

5:59

she broke up pretty unexpectedly after a Paris

6:01

trip and he's wondering what went wrong. Next,

6:04

because he and Jen are living together, he

6:06

has to find a new place to live

6:09

and his chaotic housing hunt leads him to

6:11

live with a 78-year-old conspiracy theorist named Morris

6:13

who happens to be obsessed with Julian Assange.

6:15

I'm looking across the room and Emily and

6:18

Lira are quietly laughing, which I think tells

6:20

you the tone of this book. And

6:23

I think overall, Andy feels like

6:25

his life is stalling. Through

6:27

Andy and to Spiral, we explore the

6:30

highs of romance and the low lows

6:32

of breakups and we also dive into

6:34

existential questions like how do you

6:36

understand your life as you approach mental age? How

6:39

do you process, accept, and discuss challenging

6:41

emotions? What does healing look like? Etc,

6:43

etc, etc. There's a lot

6:45

of stuff in here. That's a very

6:47

quick Spark Notes version of this book.

6:50

Leah, Emily, have I missed anything? We

6:53

have to leave a little mystery for our readers, right? I

6:55

think that's a great synopsis. Thank you for saving

6:57

me. I think that'll wet people's

6:59

appetite. Perfect. Well,

7:02

I'm hoping that it will also wet their appetite. So just

7:04

I don't know what to talk about this book, which is

7:06

where I'm going to start. I'm going to start big picture,

7:09

temperature check. How do you feel about this

7:11

book? Like it, love it, obsessed with it,

7:13

things you're still thinking through. I'm going to start

7:15

with you first, Emily. All right. Let

7:18

me tell you how I came

7:20

to this book. I had just

7:22

finished reading a 600 page, very

7:24

important, but extremely bleak history of

7:27

US foreign policy in Latin America.

7:29

And I needed something.

7:32

I needed to laugh. I needed

7:34

something not quite escapist. I wanted

7:36

a literary experience, but I wanted

7:38

a comic novel. And

7:40

good material was recommended by a colleague. And

7:43

I thought, huh, you're not

7:45

knowing anything about Dolly Alderton. And I

7:47

got a few pages in and the

7:49

protagonist was a man. He'd been dumped.

7:52

And moreover, he was a comedian. And you

7:54

guys, I thought, well, this is such a

7:56

bold move. What an audacious thing to do.

7:59

This author has just. decided to make a

8:01

comedian her protagonist. That's no

8:03

small pressure to make your protagonist a

8:05

comedian who has had some success. I

8:07

mean, he's apparently funny. And

8:09

the book is to make him

8:11

the straight man in a way.

8:13

I mean, he's been bruised, he's

8:15

miserable, he's suffering, and he's

8:18

surrounded by some crazy people. Truly,

8:20

truly. Morris. So

8:22

I wanna ask, so that's, you first were like

8:24

interested and tuned into the fact that you have

8:27

a comedian, but like overall, how did you feel

8:29

about this book? Were you looking for something funny?

8:31

Did it satisfy that itch? Tell

8:33

me your thoughts about this book. By page

8:35

40, I was laughing out loud. So

8:37

one of the things that Andy does

8:39

is he's wallowing miserably. He moves back

8:41

in with his mother. I mean, nothing

8:43

is more humiliating for a 35-year-old man, except

8:46

maybe the balding patch on his head. But

8:49

he takes photos of you. He

8:51

has this folder on his camera roll of

8:53

just some bald photos as he anxiously takes.

8:56

And then makes the mistake of having the

8:58

photos, embarrassing photos pop up in inopportune moments

9:01

for others to see, and he is humiliated

9:03

all over again. But so one of the

9:05

things he does while he wallows, I

9:07

mean, he's crying by the end of the first chapter.

9:10

And you're crying with him. I mean, you're very

9:12

moved by him. He's very appealing guy. He

9:15

relives, of course, the story of his

9:17

relationship with Jen. And one of the

9:19

things you learn early on is that

9:22

Andy and Jen were best friends with

9:24

a couple, Avi and

9:26

Jane. And together

9:29

they did all these things. And for Andy,

9:31

this was bliss. And at one point, this

9:33

is when I remember first laughing out. He

9:36

said, the four of us together, it wasn't a coup

9:38

de vous de l'étte, but a group de vous de

9:40

l'étte. And I thought that was hilarious. It's just

9:42

a little wordplay, but she does that. Emily loves

9:44

a French pun. Truly. True, I do have

9:46

a weakness for French puns. And

9:49

I was totally in. What

9:51

about you, Leah? How did you feel about this book?

9:53

Give me your temperature track, your top-level thoughts. I

9:56

think having read Dolly before, I came

9:58

in expecting more of the same. a

10:00

good way. What does that mean? Tell me,

10:02

had you read her fiction, her columns? I read both.

10:05

And in fact, the place that I was staying in

10:07

London just happened to have a copy on the shelf.

10:09

And that's why I had read her first collection that

10:11

was very personal and very much about you go, you

10:14

know, so I know a little bit more about her

10:16

background and where she's coming from as a human when

10:18

obviously she's writing in this book about

10:20

someone very far removed from herself, at least gender

10:23

wise, it's a man. But it's

10:25

interesting, it's not

10:27

to bring in another pop culture monster that

10:29

you can't avoid in this conversation. But this

10:31

Taylor Swift record that just came out.

10:33

Yeah, we were recording the weekend after

10:36

the Tortured Coates Department. Maybe you've heard

10:38

of it. Maybe you're familiar. She

10:40

Taylor Swift has a line on the

10:42

record that says all my friends smell like weed

10:44

or little babies. And

10:47

Taylor Swift, I think is 34 years old, and

10:49

he's the character in this book is 35. And

10:52

that is an age, I think, when that's

10:54

a divide that happens for you, right? He

10:56

has his comedian friends like Marcus, who

10:59

are messy, and still

11:01

very much enjoying certain substances. And then

11:03

he has his best friends, Avi and

11:05

Jane, who have domesticated their houses full

11:07

of children and lasagna and laundry and

11:09

this very sort of sweet domesticity,

11:12

right? And I

11:14

think what Andy realizes is he doesn't want

11:16

to be the weed guy, he wants to be the little baby's

11:19

guy. Right, except that

11:21

that he feels completely abandoned, suddenly

11:23

in this relationship, and that kind

11:25

of spirals him into a crisis

11:28

about his entire life, his professional

11:30

life, his friendships. But

11:32

I think it's partly because and I believe Dolly

11:34

is about exactly that age as well. She's mid

11:36

30s. It's a very sort of pivotal

11:38

point for a lot of people. And I think Dolly

11:41

as a writer has taken us on this

11:43

journey with her since her 20s, if

11:45

you've read her. And I actually

11:47

really enjoyed Ghost a couple years ago, which was

11:50

her previous that was her debut novel. And

11:52

I've recommended it to a lot of people going

11:54

through breakups, because I think she

11:57

captures really well the obsessiveness.

12:00

of a breakup, the loops you get

12:02

into in your head, the sort of

12:04

replays that you do, the sliding doors

12:06

of what if I had done this and what if

12:08

I had made this choice, and also just the

12:11

insane second guessing of emotional motivations

12:13

and all those things where you

12:16

just can't get out of your own

12:18

head. Yeah, that's what I really

12:20

loved about this book personally is

12:22

just like the way she captures

12:24

just that like internal questioning and

12:26

searching. I'm gonna ask you a question,

12:28

Emily, which is I,

12:30

so I've been positioning Leah as

12:33

our Dolly Alderson scholar, but

12:35

then also I'm gonna position you as a Dolly

12:37

Alderson scholar too, because you read this book twice,

12:40

or you listened to it a few months ago,

12:42

the audio book, and then you read the text

12:44

of it for this podcast. I'm

12:46

wondering like, how did you, how

12:48

did that second reading change how you thought of

12:50

the book? What's the difference in your mind between

12:52

the audio book and the text? Just tell me

12:55

about reading it multiple times. All right, well, the

12:57

audio book is fantastic. The actor who

12:59

reads Andy in the audio book is

13:01

Arthur Darville, a British actor, a little

13:03

older than Andy, maybe 40. I

13:06

had not even heard of him. I haven't either,

13:08

and I was like quietly pretending like yes, yes,

13:10

yes, yes. Okay. But he

13:13

has the most impeccable comic

13:15

timing and impersonation talent. He

13:18

does all the voices of

13:21

Andy's friends, Andy's mother, who's a

13:23

wonderful minor character, even Andy's mother's

13:25

friend who I love. It

13:27

turns out there are a lot of breakups in this book.

13:29

Everybody has a breakup story to share with Andy. He's

13:32

at his mother's house and he's out drinking, and

13:34

I think it's pretty early in the day, and

13:37

his mother's friend Debbie sees him and she's like,

13:39

oh, that's good, you're drinking at 11. That's

13:42

what I did when Malcolm dumped me. And

13:44

Arthur's reading is fantastic. And

13:47

so to go back and then read the book

13:49

without the audio book, I could only hear Arthur's

13:51

voice in my head, which I had no

13:54

problem with. That's good because I

13:56

feel like sometimes You hear an author's voice

13:58

in your, or a reader's voice in your head. Having like

14:00

is distracting said i have a reader you're like

14:02

I loved it and enhanced my can't get it

14:04

away for me and a good way I will

14:06

that can. We ask ourselves in Nj movies

14:08

you freeze taken that and did you add

14:10

you heard of her at all. I

14:12

had heard of her. I know I've

14:14

seen her name on once a bestseller

14:16

list and everything you know about Lows

14:19

it goes around like books aka resorts,

14:21

Netflix. Multiple of her books Gorenberg talks

14:23

with her of her but I never

14:25

read any of her books the hadn't

14:27

known about our columns. So this is

14:29

my introduction to Dolly. Owls are ten

14:31

and I think that a weird reading

14:33

experience do town whose part of that

14:35

is that does our jobs like I

14:37

feel like we are always being interrupted

14:39

with our person or reading with work.

14:41

Reading through my. First half of reading this

14:43

was very piece me I've really good chapter Two

14:45

Women as if it's something else in the Come

14:48

Back To Us and then this past Friday I

14:50

to set. Taylor. Swift Death. I

14:52

just sat and I marathons two

14:54

hundred pages of this Poconos Pull

14:56

them. So I bring this up

14:59

to say that I had. A

15:01

hard time getting into the both. One because

15:04

of how I was reading person to

15:06

when I'm a big challenges with the

15:08

book as I didn't really connect with

15:10

Andy as a person or character. Emily

15:12

you mention that he's the straight man

15:14

even though he's a comedian. His the

15:16

straight man amongst dollars is a very

15:18

far faster stuff are such but these

15:21

like very eccentric eccentric memorable characters my

15:23

times with and he is that I

15:25

felt like I did feel the seems

15:27

as like he had to do one

15:29

particular thing to get the plots move

15:31

in this direction or he has to.

15:33

Say or think it's a certain thing

15:35

to get, the puck moves in another

15:37

direction. So for instance, when he's looking

15:39

for housing, he on a whim, does.

15:42

Decides to rent a house boat without having

15:44

seen the boats despite the fact that he

15:47

hates boats and water and I'm like why

15:49

would you do that on price. It's the

15:51

price and say he can afford anything.

15:53

but without like ensuing it's a the plot is due

15:55

to the episode what he's doing it for the plot

15:58

like awesome they're like we know so much about. When

16:00

he hits a wise if it's there

16:02

was something about that me it's feel

16:04

like yeah owes his plot armor similar.

16:06

Sometimes you make terrible choices during a break up

16:09

that are so counterintuitive that you look back and

16:11

you go. I was in a soup state. This

16:13

is true and that was what I was like. Time.

16:15

Either boasts that's an awesome like when

16:17

he is a very obviously being caught

16:19

fist or when that ah Morris is

16:22

conspiracy theorists asks him till I could

16:24

give a quote to a newspaper without

16:26

telling and even what he's talking about

16:28

and I was like any the comedian

16:30

obsessed with his external image. I feel

16:33

like he would not be making these

16:35

types as a life career choices based

16:37

off of what I know about him.

16:39

So this is how to a I

16:41

thought there was a little bit of

16:44

a character incoherence. To him, that

16:46

was necessitated because of the plot

16:48

to get him to these big

16:50

moments about. Relationships. He

16:53

felt like us our dog being positioned

16:55

on us states get to be a

16:57

particular points Dolly made it all of

16:59

our students but would got to me

17:01

though is all of those points for

17:03

brilliant. I. Love Dali, otter tens

17:05

receiving on love and romance on friendship

17:07

see high Seas Great big lake. poignant

17:10

passages buffer. Something Ceos are was missing.

17:12

what it means to grieve or relationships.

17:14

I'm gonna read it later on an

17:16

episode Spoiler Alert Bill I saw our

17:19

culture passage. like sharing our culture with

17:21

someone else and what that means. I

17:23

was so moved by it as like

17:25

drawings, hearts and my margins and our

17:28

that stuff and that is the part

17:30

that I really connected with. I loved

17:32

that dog outruns meditation. On relationships.

17:35

I want to go back to where

17:37

he just said about how some of

17:39

the episodes in the novel felt like

17:42

they were there for the purposes only

17:44

of plot and there was a kind

17:46

of plausibility problem for you and I

17:48

guess I'm Calabasas. I was with Andy,

17:50

but I also thought about this and

17:52

say that a break up once it's

17:54

happened. so the book opens, the break

17:57

up has happened. That's a situation, not

17:59

a premise. I mean there's not. The

18:01

plot is a broken hearted man and

18:03

has so much of a plot and

18:05

I had to save. Watching Dolly works,

18:07

I felt like she was able to

18:09

take what was a centrally a static

18:11

situation. This is a long relationship. This

18:13

man is not getting over it in

18:15

a matter of days. The whole book

18:17

unfolds in six months. His. Heart

18:20

broken the entire time and

18:22

actually give the plot forward

18:24

momentum. I think that's where

18:26

personally my reading experience of having at

18:28

first reading it piecemeal and then been

18:31

a diving into sitting knocking it out

18:33

marathon at you just get immersed in

18:35

this person's broken heart is broken situation.

18:37

I just didn't feel so connected to

18:40

and be himself as the character especially

18:42

because there's as visit people around him.

18:44

I loved Sophie the woman that he

18:47

dates later on. I loved John and

18:49

Jane Morris or has lesbian personal trainer

18:51

Kelly not such a how the nine

18:54

of sad break. Up Also an imaginary

18:56

got These characters are so vibrant but once

18:58

because I don't think that they had the

19:00

the weight and onus of moving the plot

19:02

forward as much I thought I did as

19:04

be with them a little bit more. but

19:06

this is me on a row. Know.

19:08

I think you're right. I think Andy

19:10

is in Every man at Indistinctly is

19:12

a lot thought to because a lot

19:14

of people have compared Dolly to on

19:16

Nick Hornby and to at High Fidelity

19:18

which has it already has this almost

19:20

like Heroes Quest right or an anti

19:22

heroes class where he has to go

19:24

back and got all these accidents figure

19:26

out what went wrong in this is

19:29

in some ways I think this book

19:31

is an autopsy of one relationship right?

19:33

The bodies are quite cold when the

19:35

book opens and he's trying to figure

19:37

out what went wrong. Sleep also realize

19:39

he's not gonna dig that deep because

19:41

he's nuts, completely ready for self examination.

19:43

So lot of his blame as external

19:45

to start with and and that's like

19:47

starts with a list of all the

19:49

things that done his axe. Did

19:51

badly. Or things that he didn't love her.

19:54

Her in an Odyssey. That's him trying to

19:56

convince themselves. That. His heart isn't broken

19:58

in that their flaws and heard that of course made

20:00

it worth. Defending this relationship even though it wasn't

20:02

his choice. Yeah, I love that autopsy metaphor

20:04

because that also feels like a metaphor what we're

20:07

doing here. I mean this book is very vibrant

20:09

and alive. The relationship is under. This book is

20:11

so flourishing. I love this idea that we're diving

20:13

and n word and Ivens more but before we

20:15

get a specific some kind of to further and

20:18

as interesting as Victory for Be Raped. Craft.

20:35

Matters in small ways like how Cassius

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of into knots a small ways like

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for your money as cared for. At.

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Value of investments may fall as far as fries, and

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This is Eric Ten with New York

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22:02

We're back! This is the Book Review podcast.

22:05

I'm Mj Franklin, I'm trained by Emily A

22:07

Gun and Leah Greenblatt and we're discussing good

22:09

material by Dolly Outer to and we just

22:11

spoke about or general thoughts or feelings about

22:14

this book big picture and now we're gonna

22:16

dive into specifics of the bus mean me

22:18

was how much some specific before but never

22:21

really gonna get into it. And.

22:23

I guess to start I have a table cleary.

22:25

Another anxiety question was who can be my theme

22:27

for today? It's but my question is how do

22:29

you sit with that in the wrong? Come over.

22:31

I hope I'm saying that word freshly. I'm wondering

22:33

how you make sense of it, What you connect

22:35

us both to what linear has to sign this

22:37

book to be situated and. What? I

22:40

don't know see when him my answer

22:42

because I wanted to pick up on

22:44

Nick Hornby because that this a High

22:46

Fidelity was a break up novel published

22:48

in Ninety Ninety Five I think and

22:51

Bridget Jones Diary was Ninety Ninety Six.

22:53

And I feel that this I think

22:56

telling others in is very self consciously

22:58

a descendant of those writers I think

23:00

see how that this as as Nc

23:02

told us his column a Dating Time

23:04

in Britain I think how insulting had

23:06

a similar columns and here we are

23:09

thirty years later I just think it's

23:11

I would love to hear what you

23:13

guys think about how she's updating the

23:15

tropes of the kind of break up

23:17

novels for a reader and twenty twenty

23:20

four. Well. I

23:22

think one thing that does plane the

23:24

this novel wow his social media cellphones.

23:26

All those things that there's several plot

23:28

points that revolves around the cats are

23:31

saying that we spoke as when he's

23:33

dating this and girl cel see who

23:35

is I think meant to represent Jan

23:37

the very specifically see things. Lot of

23:39

things that ended as says say Krenz

23:41

raid and she lives on when he

23:43

can't understand her instagram because it's so

23:46

as has had. The have a

23:48

random blurry nu se but paired

23:50

with the most random captions a

23:53

separate. And as a millennial, he would be

23:55

posting pictures of avocado, toast, or whatever would

23:57

be the cliche. So bad. About drag him.

24:00

But he feels completely disconnected and that makes

24:02

him feel out of touch and lost. And

24:06

he, I don't want to spoil too much, but

24:08

it doesn't last with Sophie. And he ends up

24:10

actually really hurting her even though her whole aspect

24:13

is that she's tough on and nothing can reach

24:15

her and he's inappropriate age-wise for

24:17

her anyway and it was never going to last.

24:19

But he manages, I think, to really pierce her

24:21

a little bit just because he's such a mess

24:23

he's not able. And he's just not, his

24:25

heart is not available. He's still completely in

24:27

love with Jen. I thought it was just

24:29

fascinating how Dolly Alderton was

24:32

writing about social media, about Instagram. Sophie's

24:34

a girl who will sext Andy a

24:36

picture of her butt in a thong

24:39

or, and she has, he sees her

24:41

in the nude in photographs, I think,

24:43

online before he sees her naked in

24:45

real life. And it's just like this

24:48

weird place where the internet, we can

24:50

be naked and vulnerable, this

24:52

kind of weird pseudo intimacy. And

24:55

he's always, Andy's also always spying on

24:57

Jen, his ex-girlfriend, and seeing who she's

24:59

talking to based on her Instagram feeds,

25:02

even what movies she's watching and what potato

25:04

chips she's eating. And yet in

25:06

real life, people are much more

25:08

protected. So Sophie has all these

25:10

defenses. She's so much more afraid

25:13

of being hurt in real life. So it's just, yeah,

25:15

what do you think of that MJ? MJ

25:17

Yeah, I completely agree about the very

25:20

specific new ways and

25:22

opportunities and approaches of- Sophie To

25:24

humiliate yourself. MJ To humiliate yourself.

25:26

But then also through social media

25:29

to obsess, to think differently

25:31

about yourself, to think about the image that

25:33

you're projecting and the images that you're getting

25:35

in, to stumble into traps. Again, he's checking

25:37

in on Jen, which she shouldn't be doing,

25:39

but is doing. And then he finds out

25:42

that Jen is doing similar things with this

25:44

new guy that she starts dating that

25:46

they used to do. And that's a new way

25:49

of- Sophie Torturing yourself? MJ That's a new way

25:51

of torturing yourself and the Olivia Rodrigo track came

25:53

in for me. JAY I literally wrote that in

25:55

the margin. The Day Jairoo by Olivia Rodrigo. Andy,

25:58

I got the album for you. But

26:01

also, look at the spiral that he

26:03

goes into with his ex's new

26:06

semi-boyfriends, ex-girlfriends. He finds her

26:08

tax documents or something online

26:10

from her Australian business or

26:12

something. The rabbit holes that

26:14

you can fall down. The

26:16

invasions of privacy. Yeah. Like,

26:19

where is privacy? Where are these boundaries? And

26:21

what does that tell him about Jen's relationship,

26:24

whatever her new boyfriends long ago, ex-girlfriends, business

26:26

dealings are? Because those are the things that

26:28

you go to. Those are the coping mechanisms that you

26:31

can use now. And he, again,

26:33

is a man without a super-structured life

26:35

because he's a freelance comedian.

26:38

And so he has so much time to

26:40

spiral. And I don't know that he would

26:42

have gone to a library and used his

26:44

time better if we didn't

26:46

have these options. But he definitely,

26:48

it enforces some of the more

26:50

toxic behavior of a breakup. And that's

26:52

what I loved about this novel,

26:54

which is these toxic forces have

26:56

always been present, always available, whether

26:58

you're on social media or you're

27:00

doing something else. There

27:02

are all of these new ways to

27:04

do these universal bad behaviors after a

27:07

breakup. What I loved about this, though,

27:09

is that I felt like it was

27:11

capturing a very specific millennial online digital

27:13

approach to breakups, where the types

27:16

of information and just the level

27:18

of access to information that you do and don't

27:20

want are so readily available.

27:23

So there's not even, there's not just the

27:25

breakup in the privacy of your home. There's

27:27

also the breakup online, where you have to

27:30

actually block somebody so that you're out of

27:32

their life. And how do

27:34

you present your breakup to the world? That's another choice

27:36

that you can make. He turns

27:38

out to never have a real mastery of

27:41

social media. In some ways, I feel like

27:43

this elderly man that he moves in with

27:45

who has this very strong parasocial relationship with

27:47

Julian Assange, in some ways

27:50

he just seems like the most comfortable

27:52

man in the book because he lives

27:54

such an analog, contentedly analog

27:56

life, with his pen pal

27:58

Julian. had a breakup.

28:01

Yeah, spoiler alert, you find that out

28:03

like later on like you

28:05

he's in love with, he's not just obsessed with

28:07

Julia's songs, he's in love with Julia and Assange,

28:09

but then it finds you find out later on

28:11

the book that he was married for what eight

28:13

years like decades and decades ago.

28:15

We all have our love stories. And the

28:18

wife left him for his brother. And so

28:20

everybody's carrying around this wound that Andy is

28:22

dealing with for the first time, even though

28:24

he's had other relationships. This is the one.

28:27

So well, he also

28:29

Andy has these encounters with other exes

28:32

that are played for comedy and for

28:34

tragedy. I think it's a high

28:36

school girlfriend, he goes for and she's just you

28:38

must be really going through it because I barely

28:40

think about this at all. She's completely moved on.

28:42

And then he runs into an ex that he

28:44

feels that he hurt. And he says these sort

28:46

of bizarre things to her and ruins her day

28:48

in a weird way. But she's really don't worry

28:50

about it. I'm fine. And I haven't thought of

28:52

you. And so his flailing

28:54

just extends to every corner of his

28:56

universe because he's looking for answers to

28:58

his current predicament. And he's trying to

29:00

find them when all these other areas

29:02

of his life and it's not because

29:05

he's such a mess. None

29:07

of it is really probably giving him what he's looking

29:09

for. But it's all part of the journey. One

29:13

thing I think is interesting is this book's cover,

29:15

I would say is neutral. I mean, her name

29:17

is Dolly, you can't change that. But

29:20

I wonder how many men did pick this

29:22

book up and whether they would have thought

29:24

of it any differently if it was Dan

29:26

Alderton. That's a great

29:29

question. Because it is a male protagonist

29:31

and it's and it is, you know, in

29:33

many ways an exploration from a man's point

29:35

of view. And it's so interesting that you're

29:37

asking that because Nick Hornby's book, High Fidelity,

29:39

people applauded and men said, this is the

29:42

book that actually depicts men as they really

29:44

are. This is us. If you want to

29:46

understand the 90s male read this novel. I

29:50

do think that this is pitched to

29:52

women readers, don't you think? I

29:55

think especially considering that her last book

29:57

was not dissimilar, but from a woman's point of

29:59

view. and in ghosts, she

30:02

literally does get ghosted by a guy who

30:04

seems to be the perfect boyfriend and then

30:06

just completely vaporizes. And this sort

30:09

of fills in the outlines of

30:11

the other side of that, and it humanizes,

30:13

I think, all sides, and one way

30:15

that it does that really well is a little

30:18

bit of a spoiler, but it brings

30:20

in Jen's perspective at the end. And

30:23

I think it would have been a very different book

30:25

if it had ended on Andy's perspective,

30:27

even with a coda or some sort

30:29

of wrap-up, we get a completely

30:31

flipped perspective from

30:34

Jen. And it's pretty seamless,

30:36

too. There's no, like, now we're to Jen,

30:38

or like section heading Jen, it's just like

30:40

another chapter and you get a list, Andy

30:42

makes a list of all the things that

30:44

Jen was not awesome about at the beginning,

30:46

and then seamlessly in the

30:49

end of the book, you just get a list

30:51

of all the things that Andy wasn't awesome about,

30:54

and then you get just another chapter, and then

30:56

through context clues, you're like, oh, we're in Jen's

30:58

mind now. And speaking of

31:00

like perspective and gender, like that seamless

31:02

flow is really interesting to me. I'm

31:04

curious what you all thought about what

31:06

her perspective offered. Tell me about being

31:08

in Jen's mind. Okay, I have thoughts

31:10

about this because this was actually

31:13

something I did not like. Oh,

31:15

interesting thing. So in the audiobook

31:17

version, Vanessa Kirby, whom

31:19

you might remember from The Crown

31:21

who played Princess Margaret, the young

31:24

Princess Margaret, she reads

31:26

the last, what do you guys think it

31:28

is? Like 25 pages in the novel that

31:30

are from Jen's perspective, beginning with that things

31:32

I don't like about Andy, or it's actually

31:35

why it's good that Andy and I broke

31:37

up. I think it's a list. And then

31:39

you get in a very compressed

31:41

way her account of the

31:43

breakup, why it happened and what

31:46

her thoughts are now about her life. And

31:48

Vanessa Kirby reads that part in

31:50

her crisp posh British accent. And

31:53

there's a kind of chilliness to

31:55

it. So when I went back

31:57

and then read the section in

31:59

the... hard copy, I

32:01

also felt I didn't recognize

32:03

the Gen in that

32:05

section from the previous 200

32:08

pages, the Gen that

32:10

I had been thinking about through

32:12

Andy's, through the prism of Andy's

32:14

narration. Wait, how so? What was different? She

32:16

was colder and judgmental. She resented that he

32:18

cried during movies but hadn't dealt with what

32:20

she felt was the true sorrow of his

32:23

love, which is the fact that he was

32:25

brought up by a single mother and never

32:27

really knew his father. She just, she seemed

32:29

so petty in her judgments of him. She

32:31

didn't like that one point they had to

32:33

babysit a cat and he snuggled

32:35

with it on the couch but she did all the

32:38

caretaking and the cat changed the litter box and fed

32:40

it. And I just, it felt so

32:42

petty after four years together that these

32:44

were her grievances. I didn't think that

32:46

the Gen that we knew through Andy

32:48

was judgmental, nor that

32:50

the Andy that we met wasn't

32:53

deeply sensitive to other people. I think he

32:55

seemed so kind to me. I agree,

32:58

but I feel like that version, that chilly

33:00

judgmental version of Gen comes through only in

33:02

that list that you do make when you're

33:04

being cruel and you're trying to convince yourself

33:07

of something to get over someone, then we

33:09

just get into Gen's brain, not through a

33:11

list but just following her as she's thinking

33:13

about the breakup and then what she's doing.

33:16

And I felt that version of

33:18

Gen to be disciplined and controlled

33:20

but also in her own way

33:22

so earnest. And like her, again

33:24

so many spoilers, but spoiler alert if you've

33:26

not already left because of spoilers,

33:28

another spoiler alert, it's like you find out

33:30

that Gen never thought she wanted to be

33:32

in a relationship. She was always so distanced.

33:35

Her time with Andy was her great big

33:37

experiment trying to be with someone. And you

33:39

see in her own way, Gen's

33:41

searching of like what does that mean? Like

33:43

what's my relationship to not just Andy but

33:46

to relationships in general? And I felt that

33:49

Giving her that space was so kind.

33:51

I actually really liked the section of

33:53

Gen both because I liked getting into

33:55

Gen's mind and I liked her as

33:58

a character but then also. The

34:00

big picture I love when books pivot at

34:02

the end and give you the mind as

34:04

the character you've been obsessing about. all Aunts

34:06

and then all in this one last cathartic

34:08

burst to get them. So that happens. And

34:11

Ulysses at James Joyce's Ulysses and it happens

34:13

in Hernandez's Trustee of Us as well as

34:15

a book I'm very sorry for. Like I'd

34:17

say, it's is a narrative and or whenever

34:19

yeah, I love it is just a narrative

34:21

structure. The I Am Obsessed with Split. Did

34:24

you think about ten. Why don't overstate

34:26

the thought that I'm A That's express

34:28

that. I do think it's a little

34:30

bit radical that Dolly has given us

34:32

a man and protagonists till his obsessing

34:35

about love and family and children and

34:37

then gives us a woman who ultimately

34:39

is is looking for something bigger with

34:41

her life. Her main priorities are: What

34:43

does my soul want? What kind of

34:46

person to I once had been to?

34:48

I wanna be this person working this

34:50

corporate job and making money and getting

34:52

married and doing the things that I'm

34:54

supposed to do. And we'll find out

34:57

because again, where the completely ruining this

34:59

is? Book for your bets as her

35:01

dad is casually mentioned by Andy at

35:03

some point and then you find out

35:05

that his behavior is actually a humongous

35:08

motivator for her and how she feels

35:10

about romance her father did certain things

35:12

that really saved. Her and her

35:14

sort of approach to. Relationships

35:16

And so she becomes much

35:19

less as a sort of.

35:22

An. Opaque person I didn't I might

35:24

listen to. Her character was consistent throughout

35:26

that entire thing. It it so little

35:28

bit like a vehicle for summers Dolly

35:30

Auditions thoughts, but I still, I'm with

35:32

you. And then I love a satisfying

35:35

denouement that kind of does it's she's

35:37

not giving has already an unfinished. She's

35:39

giving us the satisfaction of the story

35:41

without giving us a happily ever aspect

35:43

which I think is a very hard.

35:45

Trick the plot it's happily ever after,

35:48

but it is. It does pivot to

35:50

like the but humorous tone false way

35:52

to become so earnest and almost saccharin

35:54

and aware that I think would have

35:56

annoyed me another books but like in

35:59

this one. I was there, I

36:01

was so with her. Shit, I do

36:03

think that the and did something solve

36:05

a structural problem for other ten which

36:07

is and this is another spoiler we

36:10

learn at the end. After six months

36:12

of while a wing and his career

36:14

of tanking Andy rights a new set

36:16

and this set is preferred that the

36:19

end of the book and that's the

36:21

end of of and isn't there a

36:23

sense and rather than has the reaction

36:26

to this said that is a breakthrough

36:28

for Andy and it comes and in

36:30

at at At or cent. Muslim and

36:32

in his career where is really gonna

36:35

fail at it as per person or

36:37

he needs a breakthrough will get hot.

36:39

We get his performance without getting a

36:41

lot of detail but we got the

36:43

reaction to it sturgeons eyes and I

36:45

felt structurally that was really smart. she's

36:47

in the audience and of course this

36:50

that you've already guess this even if

36:52

you haven't read the book is about

36:54

their breakup and we realize that the

36:56

good material of the not of the

36:58

title is the story we'd been reading

37:00

and that is the comedy routine. As

37:03

Curse Transposed or The Steve. Smith

37:05

Cm and. I love that so

37:07

that in fact, sand gives him

37:09

this incredible just. Professionally.

37:12

By. Breaking up with him which

37:14

is the material for his next act

37:16

and at em and spoiling everything by.

37:18

Glad I don't make an at Amelia. A

37:22

cigarette? Other fares some. But speaking of

37:24

happy people, good comedians, breakups. We're gonna

37:26

be diving into some of our favorite

37:28

break up books and just a second.

37:30

But before I put it on, ask

37:33

you and really are other lessons you

37:35

wanna put on really quickly about bespoke.

37:38

I'll just one more thing about the title, which. I

37:40

really love because I still like a turn.

37:42

Leah, you're correct me if I'm wrong is

37:44

that she does a lot of wordplay. Okay

37:46

readers, this is not just a conventional relationship

37:48

novel. There's a lot going on at them

37:50

as the level of the six. Assists which

37:52

I enjoy it and so of

37:54

course good material is incest. The

37:57

comedians a fodder for the

37:59

said pets. The question of, is

38:01

he good material? Is he husband material?

38:03

Is he material worthy of

38:06

a relationship, a marriage? And

38:08

it all comes together and I just wanted to throw

38:10

that out there because I did like that. Is

38:13

he worthy of a novel? Yes. Right? Question.

38:16

One of the gifts that Dolly Alderson has and why she's

38:19

a phenomenon, at least on one side of the pond, is

38:22

what every really good writer does, which is

38:24

take universal experiences and make them specific and

38:26

the other way around. And I think if

38:29

you've gotten to this point in your life, you've

38:31

probably had a breakup or two and there's just

38:34

some very universal truths. In

38:36

this book that cross, I

38:38

think gender and culture and a lot

38:40

of other sort of boundaries because... And

38:43

I also do really like that this book in

38:45

many ways is about friendship

38:47

as the most important relationship. And

38:49

I think so much of

38:52

Andy's heart is... The

38:54

real estate is taken out by his male

38:56

friendships and these sort of quirky other friendships

38:58

that he develops with a roommate or his

39:00

relationship with his mother. So

39:02

I like that she's not, I

39:05

would say, just a love person.

39:07

In the romantic sense, I think she's

39:09

love on a wider canvas. I

39:11

completely agree. And I was looking back at the

39:14

New York Times book review of this book and

39:16

a reviewer pointed that out as well. I have

39:18

it written down. Are you telling me that's not

39:20

an original thought, M. Day? Both

39:22

can be true. It's a really

39:25

no and also a reviewer, Katie-Dan

39:27

Baker says, all directed excels at

39:29

portraying non-romantic intimate relationships with tenderness

39:32

and authenticity. And I feel like

39:34

that's what I got. That's

39:36

a much better and quicker way of getting at

39:38

my point. But thanks to our critic,

39:41

that's yes, but I agree. Before

39:43

we pivot, I almost forgot. Can I say the one thing

39:45

that quote that I loved about our culture and subcultures? I'm

39:47

just going to read it. I'm just going to read it.

39:49

I want people to hear her voice. I

39:51

got so sentimental and just like, again,

39:53

hearts and stars and all that stuff.

39:57

And He is thinking about what it

39:59

means. He doesn't have this relationship

40:01

with Jan. What it means that he can't

40:03

share stuff with his favorite person and I'm

40:05

gonna skip around. but just roughly the passes

40:08

goes. It's weird not being and

40:10

our sub culture us to anymore. There was

40:12

just culture and then there was my culture.

40:14

And then we met and fell in love

40:17

and we introduced each other to all of

40:19

it, like children showing each other their favorite

40:21

toys. It's but instinct never goes. Look at

40:24

my tire and and look at my final

40:26

collections. Let it all these things I've chosen

40:28

to represent who I am. It was fun

40:30

to find out about each other self made

40:33

culture as and make our own hybrid and

40:35

the years of eating, watching, reading, listening, sleeping

40:37

and living together. But. I'm not a

40:39

member of that culture anymore. No one is.

40:42

It's been disbanded, dissolves, the domain is no

40:44

longer valid. So what do I do with

40:46

all the stars? Where do I put it

40:48

all? Where do I take on my new

40:50

discoveries Now that I'm no longer and a

40:53

tribe of to. And if I start

40:55

a new sub genre of love with someone else,

40:57

am I allowed to bring in all things I

40:59

love from the last one? Or that be weird.

41:01

Why? Do I sign all? It's so hard

41:04

for me. I love this passes because it's

41:06

not about to stand in the break up.

41:08

It's like this internal who am I now?

41:10

Like how what is my lights? I get

41:12

goosebumps still thinking about it. but I just

41:15

love their passage. I find it so movie.

41:18

It's. About real into the sea away

41:20

and when you lose that person you

41:22

are l a lonely astronaut. At

41:25

them. And on that lonely. As

41:27

for out know L'enfant not other lonely

41:29

astronauts Inspired by this break up and

41:31

that material, I was wondering what are

41:33

some of your other favorite break up

41:35

bucks? These are either books that are

41:38

dedicated specifically to break up like a

41:40

materials or these are books that are

41:42

about something completely different, but they feature

41:44

a great break up. a few

41:46

weeks ago and another podcast on but club

41:48

discussion we have discussed miss have a san

41:50

francis from great expectations for to something that

41:53

a break up bucks i love that break

41:55

up and how even all these years later

41:57

miss havisham as i can still mad my

42:00

own apartment. Exactly. So that's to say, what

42:03

we mean by breakup book is very flexible, but I'm

42:05

curious what are some of your favorites. I'm going to

42:07

start with you, Emily. Aren't we

42:09

glad Miss Havisham didn't have an Instagram account? I'm

42:12

going to be obsessed. Well, let's see.

42:20

I was thinking I don't read a lot

42:22

of novels where breakups are a central feature,

42:24

but I did just read one. I can't

42:27

say it's my favorite. It's

42:29

a book about which I have

42:31

very complicated six feelings and

42:33

it's Kyros by Jenny

42:36

Erpenbach, the German novelist who is

42:38

a perennial no-barrel longlister. She may

42:40

win one of these days. She's,

42:42

I think, still in her 50s.

42:44

She's still writing. She's published several

42:47

books now in English. They've been

42:49

translated in Kyros, which came out

42:51

in English last

42:53

year, is now in the shortlist for

42:55

the International Booker Prize for Fiction and

42:58

Translation. And the title comes

43:00

from the Greek God of Fortunate

43:02

Moments or Good Fortune. But

43:05

this isn't an uplifting book. This isn't

43:07

a comic novel like Joly Alderton. This

43:09

is a novel

43:11

of an obsessive but doomed

43:13

love affair between a 19-year-old

43:15

East German girl and a

43:17

55-year-old married East German man.

43:19

And you know from the outset that it

43:21

won't end well. It's mesmerizing

43:23

in the way that getting inside

43:25

an obsessional relationship can be, but

43:28

it's also off-putting. It's

43:30

intense, but it's also

43:32

beautiful. She's a beautiful writer. Dwight Garner

43:34

called it a beautiful bummer of a

43:36

book in his review and I thought

43:38

that sort of summed it up. It's really,

43:40

it's a lot. That

43:43

sounds perfect. I'm adding that to my

43:45

list. What about you, Leah? You

43:47

know, I thought of a couple titles. One

43:50

more recent book I really enjoyed

43:52

was Megan Nolan Acts of Desperation.

43:54

I Thought it was really good.

43:56

That's an Irish, I believe she's Irish writer. It

43:58

was maybe about two years ago. Oh shit

44:00

another not allowed a couple months ago

44:02

as insane on a different topic outta

44:04

gas but this was seems I would

44:06

say like auto Six and and it

44:09

was about a sort of obsessive love

44:11

affair. Know ton of humor but a

44:13

lot of insight into sort of the

44:15

way you lose yourself in a relationship

44:17

and how you claw that. That and

44:19

Elina Roses and talking about this A

44:21

for house. In some ways I think

44:23

books like a good material or the

44:25

Rodney Dangerfield A Six and they don't

44:27

really get any respect and it as

44:29

he takes. So much skill to put

44:31

a book like this to capture this

44:33

kind of lightness Wisps has to it

44:35

that that sort of weird dichotomy and

44:38

heartburn nor assigned to me because I

44:40

think nor f on made Soames light

44:42

that captured the stuff. So while and

44:44

it's not until you see a bad

44:46

round com that you realize how many

44:48

ways it can go so terribly wrong.

44:50

So I think those were two books

44:52

that I thought of and I also

44:55

thought of the Silver the Worst Person

44:57

In the World which came out a

44:59

couple years ago. And I believe

45:01

it's Adidas production, but it's

45:03

It's a really similar sort

45:05

of exploration of to said

45:07

dance you do with someone

45:09

of wanting to be completely

45:11

loved and understood and also

45:13

so badly wanting. To be your own.

45:15

Person. And obviously Harper and

45:17

is about a true story of a person

45:20

that we know and we've also seen it

45:22

played out on screen by Meryl Streep and

45:24

Jack Nicholson. Than that's more like a cultural

45:26

sort of touchstone, but all of these things

45:28

combined give you that that insight into smart,

45:31

damaged people and how the all. Messed.

45:33

Up at Loves. I am so

45:35

glad you mentioned Nora Ephron because

45:37

Dolly alerts and thanks Nora Ephron

45:39

than two hours mags Because when

45:41

Nora Ephron wrote Harry Met Sally

45:44

see interviewed Rob Rayner who had

45:46

just been divorced from his wife.

45:48

Annie Marceau and.

45:50

See know I have. A friend wanted to

45:52

get hairy. gone as a

45:54

character who was a plausible

45:56

man in mid lies and

45:59

mississippi so Anyway, Dolly Alderson apparently

46:01

said to herself, I have to do

46:03

this too for Andy and interviewed all her

46:05

male friends. So Andy is her Harry. Andy

46:07

is her Harry. I love this.

46:09

I love this. I have

46:11

a breakup book. It's not fiction.

46:13

It is a memoir. It's splinters

46:15

by Leslie Jamison. Loved

46:18

this book. This book is devastating. So

46:20

this book follows Leslie Jamison's life over

46:22

the course of a few years in

46:24

which she got pregnant,

46:26

had a baby, went through

46:28

a divorce. Then the pandemic

46:31

started. So living through

46:34

a pandemic, started another relationship. And

46:36

just, it's so specific and so vivid

46:39

about what she was going through. And

46:41

then she pans out and she starts

46:43

making these beautiful statements about love and

46:45

romance and heartbreak and

46:48

then just survival. How are you

46:50

during this like time of calamity,

46:52

both personal and societal with the

46:55

pandemic? I have one quick passage

46:57

that I'm gonna read which actually

47:00

relates to the passage that

47:02

I read from Good Material. It's

47:04

very similar about subcultures that she says about

47:07

her breakup. Our thing, we

47:09

had a thousand things like everyone, but

47:11

ours were ours. Who will find them

47:13

beautiful now? And that question

47:16

after a breakup, who will find them

47:18

beautiful now? Oh, I'm crying. Well, her

47:20

ex is writing a book, Charles Buck, so we'll see

47:22

what he found beautiful. Oh my God. Oh my

47:25

God. Good luck, Charles. Emily's

47:27

Godspeed. I

47:29

wish everyone the best. You're

47:32

so magnanimous. Oh my gosh. And then on

47:34

that note, I think that's all we have

47:36

time for today. Emily, Leah, I just wanna

47:38

say a huge thank you for this conversation.

47:40

This was so fun. It was

47:43

such a pleasure. So much fun. This book was a pleasure.

47:45

I hope other people get to enjoy it. It's a nice

47:47

sort of palate cleanser almost because

47:49

life is hard. This book is easy. I

47:52

also wanna say a huge thank you to everybody

47:54

for tuning in and joining these conversations. These

47:57

book clubs are experiments and I

47:59

love them. During them and we only hear

48:01

from you if your thoughts about these big clubs

48:03

if you have thought about this book. if you

48:05

have thoughts about this conversation when this goes up

48:07

on your podcast speeds this will also up in

48:10

an article paid on the New York Times. Come

48:12

into the comment section their leave us are and

48:14

will respond to some so we hope to hear

48:16

from you but as soon as I think easily

48:18

and Emily and and so next time period I.

48:23

Met was Mg Franklin, emily eight

48:25

didn't and Leah Green Blatt in

48:27

our book club conversation about Dolly

48:29

older tons good material. I'm Gilbert

48:31

Cruise, editor of the New York

48:33

Times Book Review. Thanks for listening!

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