0:00

You're listening to Faith for Normal People,

0:02

the only other God-ordained podcast on the

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internet. I'm Pete Enns. And

0:07

I'm Jared Bias.

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Before we get started with our episode today,

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we have a huge announcement to make. As

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you know, our mission at the Bible for

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Normal People is to bring the best in

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biblical scholarship to everyday people. For seven years,

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we've done that through podcasts, books, and classes,

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but we've missed an important demographic. Kids. Yeah,

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we get asked all the time, how do

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out. Today on Faith for

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Normal People we're talking about deconstruction with

2:10

our friend Sarah Bessey. And Sarah is

2:12

not a stranger to our podcast and

2:15

she is a New York Times best-selling

2:17

author, co-founder of Evolving Faith with the

2:19

late Rachel Held Evans, and also a

2:22

fantastic writer. She's one of my favorite

2:24

writers and the trusted voice for so

2:26

many people who are pursuing the

2:29

reconstruction and the reimagining of their faith. Absolutely.

2:31

So don't forget to stay tuned at the

2:33

end of the episode for quiet time during

2:35

which we'll reflect on our conversation with Sarah.

2:38

Let's dive in. At

2:41

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people. Sarah,

5:12

welcome again to our podcast. So nice

5:14

to have you. I'm so

5:16

glad to be here. Thanks for having

5:18

me. Absolutely. Let's talk about something that

5:20

you may have noticed is like all

5:22

over the place on social media. And I

5:24

think even social media has given people

5:26

the freedom to express themselves. But this

5:29

whole idea of deconstruction, could you just,

5:31

I mean, what does that mean to

5:33

you? What does that word deconstruction mean?

5:35

Let's start with that. Well, I

5:37

mean, it's kind of interesting to me how

5:40

almost the word has ceased to have any

5:42

sort of meaning on its own. It's almost

5:44

like everybody brings their own interpretation of it

5:46

or their own idea of it. And so

5:49

for some people, it can be very scary

5:51

and it can feel very, I

5:54

don't know, just almost overwhelming or like this

5:56

thing to avoid. And even, I

5:58

don't know, I think one of the things that maybe gets a little

6:00

bit tiring for us is a lot of

6:02

people like to talk about or around

6:05

people who are deconstructing. I

6:07

don't really love the word deconstruction. I

6:09

mean, if it works for people, I think that's great.

6:12

It just sounds a lot neater than

6:14

what I experienced in that.

6:16

So for my experience, I

6:18

mean, whether you call it deconstruction or a faith

6:20

shift or whatever else, I mean,

6:22

I tend to like the phrase evolving faith,

6:24

obviously. It's just this notion that you hit

6:26

these kind of thresholds in your life

6:29

and you have... There's a lot of reasons why

6:31

you'll land there. Sometimes it can be questions about

6:33

theology. It can be questions about how you move

6:35

through the world. It can be personal

6:37

trauma and challenges. It can be a lot of

6:39

grief. It can be anger. It can be collective.

6:41

It can be really personal. But you kind of

6:43

find yourself running out of answers. In

6:46

some ways, I've almost described it as like

6:48

God disappearing like steam on a mirror, like

6:50

after a bath, you know, like just all of a

6:52

sudden it's just gone. Everything you saw you knew or

6:54

the box you had for God or that

6:56

you were given for God all of a

6:58

sudden feels really small and you wonder if

7:01

there's more than just this. And

7:03

a lot of times people will come to that multiple

7:05

points during their life. I think

7:07

where we really kind of tend to trip over

7:10

it a bit is we act like it is

7:12

something to be afraid of or that it is

7:14

something that is a mark of

7:16

faithlessness. There's some sort of

7:18

like moral assignment to it. Like if

7:21

you were a really true, true believer,

7:23

you wouldn't be having doubt and questions about

7:26

Scripture and church and your life and, you

7:29

know, how you've been taught to move through the world or whatever

7:31

else. And I don't know.

7:33

I just don't think that that's really true. You

7:35

know, I think that in my experience, almost everyone

7:37

I've seen and walked alongside of

7:39

and even in my own experience, we were usually

7:41

the true believer kids, right? We were

7:43

the ones who were like all the way in. And

7:45

when we almost run into

7:48

that brick wall of just like, oh, wait,

7:50

this isn't everything I thought it would be

7:52

or I've run out of answers here, it

7:54

can be profoundly disorienting. Yeah. Can you

7:56

say more about that experience for you and just,

7:58

you know, you walked along side of a

8:00

lot of people who are in the wilderness as

8:02

you often call it. Can you say

8:05

more about that disorienting place and

8:07

as a moment of hope, also

8:09

how you navigated that for yourself

8:11

and you're several years now into

8:13

the wilderness, you're a little bit of a veteran.

8:15

What was that journey like

8:18

for you of the wilderness? First, that

8:20

disorientation piece. But then also what were

8:22

those beginning signs of hope for

8:24

you that maybe this isn't the end of

8:27

something but the beginning of something else? I

8:29

think that's one of those things that did

8:32

kind of almost take me by surprise when

8:34

I walked through that experience the first time

8:37

because I hadn't really ever been taught how normal it

8:39

is, right? I had never been

8:41

told that this was an entirely normal

8:43

part of spiritual formation. And in fact,

8:46

if you haven't had that experience, no

8:48

matter how grandiose or small and simple,

8:51

usually you've missed a few invitations from the Spirit

8:54

along the way. And so for me,

8:56

when I went through deconstruction, it

8:58

would have been, I don't know, maybe 25

9:00

years ago. My husband was on staff

9:02

at like a Texas mega church in

9:04

pastoral ministry. That'll do it. And

9:07

yeah, when it came to that,

9:09

I was absolutely the first one

9:11

off the pier and it was

9:13

like a mess, just an absolute

9:15

proper mess. I think my deconstruction upended

9:18

a lot of our life and we

9:20

did definitely suffer a lot of losses,

9:22

whether it was from friendships and income

9:24

and vocation, but also things

9:26

around like certainty and security. And

9:29

so I think that a lot

9:31

of those questions that initially began for me were

9:34

often theological. And sometimes it was, I think, I'll

9:36

look back on it now and even wonder if

9:39

some of it was cultural misstep of just being

9:41

in a place that was completely different than

9:43

where I had grown up in Canada. It

9:45

was just post 9 11. And so things

9:47

in the world felt very fraught and I

9:49

couldn't really square up everything I thought I

9:52

knew about Jesus with a lot of the

9:54

rhetoric around me. And so there was definitely

9:56

this experience of like, I don't know what

9:58

I think about any of this. I

10:00

don't know what I think about the scripture, I think pretty much.

10:02

And of course, I came up in the charismatic renewal movements. So

10:05

I was like, well, this also is a

10:07

whole steamer trunk of baggage now to unpack.

10:10

And so I think as it kind of began

10:12

to unfold, there was this sense of almost flailing to

10:15

it. I talk in the book a

10:17

little bit about how we often have like two responses when

10:19

we very first kind of come to this crossroad and it's,

10:22

you have this tendency to either want to double

10:24

down on what has worked. You

10:26

know, that's the option of like, I'm fine,

10:28

we're fine, everything's fine. You kind

10:30

of stuff it down and pretend to just kind of,

10:32

well, if this is the thing that they tell me

10:34

are going to work, if this is the script, if

10:36

this is the formula, if this is the, if this

10:38

then that path, I will hit every

10:40

mark. I will earn every gold star. You hand

10:42

me a Bible study written by a lady with

10:45

an unfurling flower on the cover and I will

10:47

fill out your worksheets. I will do things that

10:49

need to be done. But

10:51

then on the other side, there can be

10:53

this almost burn it down energy. And

10:56

that's definitely more where I landed in that

10:58

stage of life. Nothing

11:00

here is salvageable. I'm pretty sure institutional

11:02

religion is garbage. Is there still

11:04

something that's of truth here that I want to hold on

11:06

to? And so yeah,

11:09

it was, I think, really upending. And

11:11

I think it was maybe even intensified because

11:14

I didn't know how normal it was. And

11:16

so it did feel scary. Can I

11:18

ask, I hope this is okay to

11:20

ask you, Sarah, because people really, you

11:22

know, when I've gone through similar

11:24

kinds of things, other people's stories

11:27

were very, very helpful to me. It

11:30

wasn't like here's the explanation for just hearing

11:32

other people and what they were going through.

11:35

Would you mind fleshing out a little

11:37

bit of just maybe more specifically what

11:39

some of the triggers

11:41

were? Was there a really a

11:43

big one that was a straw that broke the

11:46

camel's back for you and then fleshed

11:48

out a bit more your thinking and feeling

11:50

process as a result of that? I

11:53

definitely agree with you. I think that sometimes, especially

11:55

when we lack, I don't know, companions,

11:58

maybe in the wilderness, that I do. of having someone

12:00

to be alongside of you or even hear other people's

12:03

stories just makes you feel a little bit less alone.

12:05

That's definitely true. And so, I mean, on

12:07

my end of things, I think it started

12:10

almost very theologically. You know,

12:12

I was grappling with a lot of the

12:14

teaching that was surrounding me around prayer, around

12:16

miracles, around women,

12:19

and women's place in the church,

12:21

and women's voices and experiences. Some

12:24

of it were things that were kind of

12:26

related to politics and justice and those things

12:28

showing up. So, all those things were

12:30

kind of almost like this big tangled thicket of like

12:32

any one of them maybe wouldn't have been enough to

12:34

kind of push me over that threshold. But

12:36

what ended up really kind of doing it

12:39

was a very personal experience that I

12:41

had around pregnancy loss. And

12:43

Brian and I, my husband, Brian and I had

12:45

been married for a short amount of time, and

12:47

we just experienced loss after loss.

12:51

And I did everything I should do, everything

12:54

that my tradition told me was right, everything

12:56

that would assure me of an

12:59

answered prayer, right? And I

13:01

think that there are a lot of gifts of

13:03

coming up in the charismatic movement that I'm grateful

13:06

for to this day. One of them

13:08

is that we had such a high view of

13:10

God. You know, we never thought that God was

13:12

someone who gave you cancer, or,

13:14

you know, was interfering in your life

13:16

to, you know, somehow, you know, act like

13:18

being terrible was going to be for your

13:20

greater good, right? There was just this high, high

13:23

view of God being good. But

13:25

then on the flip side of that, when things went

13:28

wrong, well, then you got

13:30

the blame, because it's not God's fault, right?

13:33

And so you lack faith, you

13:35

didn't pray hard enough, maybe you have secret sin

13:37

in your life. And I'm looking at my life

13:39

and going, I am completely broken open with

13:42

grief and with wondering, but this extra

13:44

layer of shame of where are

13:46

my prayers not being answered? What am I doing

13:48

wrong? Feeling incredibly forgotten by

13:51

God. And all of a sudden thinking, wait

13:53

a minute, what if everything I've been taught about

13:56

answered prayer and about miracles and

13:59

about my ex... exceptionalism to

14:01

being a person isn't true. And

14:04

that was the thread I began to pull

14:07

that ended up unraveling almost the whole sweater. That

14:09

was kind of the thing that pushed me over

14:11

I think into the wilderness was almost this sense

14:13

of like, yes, I had

14:16

questions. Yes, I had doubts. Yes, I

14:18

had critiques. Yes, I had some very

14:20

adverse and harmful experiences. Yes,

14:22

I had a lot of anger. Yes, I had a

14:24

lot of awareness that I was waking up to around

14:26

the world and around justice and around embodiment of those

14:29

things. But ultimately what ended up pushing

14:31

me over that threshold altogether was grief. And

14:33

I think that that's a shared experience for a lot of

14:35

us. We can put up with a lot of things. And

14:38

we'll say that we're angry long before we'll

14:40

say that we're sad. Yeah. All

14:42

right. Well, I appreciate you sharing that, Sarah.

14:44

I think that means a lot to people

14:47

and yeah, grief and pain,

14:50

those are things that just not just unexpected

14:52

things. I don't have this intellectual problem. It's

14:54

more like I really think

14:56

it's lived experiences that drive people

14:58

to really

15:00

question what they believe

15:03

and to hear, well, you're less

15:06

than for doing that, which is very

15:08

much the rage nowadays. I mean, I

15:11

know you know that. It's the way

15:13

deconstruction is sometimes

15:15

peddled by people as like

15:17

a cheap thing even like,

15:20

oh, I'm deconstructing. I'm deconstructing.

15:22

When you talk like that, you're not deconstructing. Here's your badge.

15:25

Yeah, exactly. Here's your trophy. But then others,

15:27

reactions to that is, well, like you just

15:29

said, it's like it's all bad. Only bad

15:31

people with no faith do

15:34

that. But it may be people without

15:36

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I ask a question around what's led you

17:45

to, you know, why not just

17:47

give up on faith altogether? Everybody's journey

17:49

here is different and people end up

17:52

where they end up and you know,

17:54

there's no prescribed. It's only legitimate

17:56

to evolve your faith if it looks this certain

17:58

way or adapt your faith or. change your

18:00

faith if it ends in a certain way.

18:02

But for you it did end, or it's

18:04

ever evolving, but it has gone a certain

18:06

direction. And so what do you think, what

18:08

were the things that led your

18:10

faith to evolve in the way that it

18:12

has since that time when there is a lot

18:15

of anger and a lot of grief and a lot of loss?

18:18

What do you think led to where you are now with

18:20

your faith? Yeah, I think there were a lot of moments

18:23

and practices. I think that may be one of

18:25

the things that is hardest about

18:28

deconstruction in the beginning. It's

18:31

realizing you don't actually know how it's going to

18:33

end. And you do have a lot of, often,

18:35

I mean, we can see it in the books

18:37

that are being published and the conversations that are

18:39

being had oftentimes by establishment spaces, a lot

18:42

of hand wringing and pearl clutching over

18:44

people who are asking questions or

18:46

experiencing doubt or are saying, but what about

18:49

this and that and you know, whatever. And

18:51

it has moved from being that intellectual

18:55

discussion in a pub over atonement

18:57

theory as important as that is,

18:59

Pete, as there is

19:02

this element of like, like you said,

19:04

just something that's deeply personal there, right?

19:06

And so I think that some

19:08

of the things that ended up kind of

19:10

keeping me snagged in the story

19:13

ages ago, I remember

19:15

Rachel Held Evans talking about how this was a

19:17

story she was still willing to be wrong about.

19:20

And I remember feeling so deeply seen

19:22

by those words because it felt like

19:24

that for about a good 10 years

19:26

for me, where I just wasn't sure.

19:29

I wasn't sure what I believed about church or

19:31

what I really did about how to read scripture.

19:33

I wasn't sure about how people should move through

19:35

their lives and what was in my hub have

19:37

certain opinions or certain beliefs or whatever else. But

19:40

there was something at the

19:42

center of it that I found so compelling.

19:44

And for me, that was really centered around

19:46

the person of Jesus. And so

19:48

I remember having experiences where

19:50

I almost felt like I was like reading

19:52

the Bible for the first time during a

19:54

lot of those years because I remember, you're gonna

19:56

laugh at this, you two, because I remember

19:59

having this. moment where I was like, well, I'm not calling myself a

20:01

Christian anymore. I cannot have that label. These

20:04

people, this is too much. I don't want nothing to

20:06

do with this. And so I remember

20:08

starting to call myself like a follower of Jesus. Like

20:10

I thought that was like such a different thing. And

20:14

I needed maybe this space in my own

20:16

mind for that distinction. But then I remember

20:19

having this moment where I literally was like,

20:21

well, if I'm calling myself a follower

20:23

of Jesus, like I probably should figure out what

20:25

that means. What did he actually do? And

20:28

what did he actually say? Like in a lot of ways, I

20:30

felt like I knew a lot about church and I knew a

20:32

lot about, you know, the doctrines we believed. And I knew a

20:34

lot about the things we weren't supposed to ask questions about

20:36

and the things we weren't supposed to be doing.

20:38

Probably knew more about Paul than I knew

20:40

about Jesus. And there was this invitation

20:43

in that for me. And so of course,

20:45

being Protestant, I go to the Bible and

20:47

being charismatic, it's going to be sloppy and

20:49

experiential. But there's this invitation

20:51

that I found there. And I remember

20:54

reading, this is probably five or six

20:56

years into my first experience of wilderness

20:59

and sitting at our kitchen table and I was reading Luke

21:01

six and I want to say it was a sermon. It

21:03

was a sermon on the Mount. And

21:05

I remember almost getting angry because

21:08

I had this sense of like, I

21:10

would have followed this. I would

21:12

have like, I understand why people

21:14

drop their nets and chased after

21:16

this guy. I understand why it

21:18

upended empires. I understand because

21:21

this is compelling to me. Whether

21:23

or not ladies should read the

21:25

Bible, that's not compelling to

21:27

me, like in terms of

21:29

discussions and debates. But this, this

21:32

is something that's worth building your life around. And

21:34

there's still a bit of an edge, I think,

21:36

to my faith. And there's a lot of practices

21:38

that I have, you know, kind of learned the

21:40

hard way in terms of what

21:42

has helped me reintegrate or maybe even reimagine

21:44

what faith might look like for me, you

21:46

know, and some of those things are things

21:49

that we talk about all the time around

21:51

hope and around, you know, knowing how

21:53

to tell the truth again. And, you know,

21:55

around community and being taught by

21:57

people who read the Bible so differently than you do.

22:00

I mean, it turned out when I thought

22:02

I was rejecting Christianity, I was rejecting like

22:04

one teeny tiny one-sixteenth of it, because

22:06

it was so much bigger and more beautiful

22:09

and diverse and good than I ever could

22:11

have imagined that there was actually a lot

22:13

of paths out here and a lot of

22:15

good guides that I had missed. And

22:18

so, I mean, for sure, I think there's always going to be

22:20

that little bit of an edge, but

22:22

that stubborn insistence on

22:25

the goodness and the abundance and

22:27

faithfulness and welcome of God deeply

22:30

shaped my life. And I don't have any

22:32

regrets about that. Even

22:34

in seasons of unraveling, weaving it together

22:36

and unraveling it again, you know, back

22:39

and forth, I don't know where

22:41

else I would go. There's

22:43

still something so incredibly compelling and

22:45

good about this way of being

22:47

in the world. It's the thing I'm willing to risk being wrong

22:49

about. Darrell Bock Yeah. See, I

22:51

mean, one thing that I'm going

22:53

to use different language here for,

22:55

I think, what you're saying, and

22:58

it's your experience and

23:00

really your intuition, I would say,

23:02

that played a big role thinking

23:04

things like, I'm still attracted

23:07

to this Jesus person. And

23:09

one thing I hear from the

23:12

naysayers of deconstruction is that your

23:15

problem is you're not listening to doctrine.

23:18

You're listening to your experiences. You're

23:21

fallen intuitions. So

23:23

riff on that a little bit because I

23:25

know you disagree with that, right? So just,

23:27

I mean, how does experience and intuition, how

23:29

can that be part of this authentic journey

23:31

of – and I do agree with your

23:33

language – evolving faith to me is a

23:35

much better way of putting this on deconstruction?

23:37

Mary E. Deeba-Bamford Yeah. I think that that's

23:39

one of those things that I ended

23:42

up deconstructing along the ways, is the

23:44

idea that somehow those parts of yourself

23:46

are at odds with what

23:48

God is wanting to do in the world and even in

23:50

your own self, right? I think

23:52

that that's some of those things that did such

23:55

incredibly deep damage on

23:57

generations of people, saying that you're – your

24:00

intuition's not trustworthy, that your body

24:02

is sinful, that your mind

24:04

should be checked at the door, and

24:06

you should just be spoon-fed doctrine by

24:08

people who know better. I

24:10

think there's a real sense of growing up that

24:13

comes along with evolving faith that looks

24:15

a lot like healing. It

24:17

looks like almost like putting a bone

24:19

back into place that was dislocated. And

24:22

so it's not that I don't think that theology and

24:24

doctrine is deeply important. I think very differently about them

24:26

maybe now than I did, and I certainly have a

24:29

lot of different opinions, and I also have a lot

24:31

of non-opinions, things where I'm just like, well,

24:33

I don't know. And

24:35

I'm content with not knowing sometimes. But

24:38

I think that invitation to heal

24:40

that dislocation between our actual embodied

24:42

selves and what I

24:44

believe is God, I think

24:47

that there's something really that looks a lot

24:49

like integration and wholeness to that. I

24:51

haven't yet seen anywhere

24:54

in my experiences and even in

24:56

a lot of my study and

24:58

work around this where people become

25:00

less of the image of God

25:02

because of that, right? It's almost like there's communities

25:04

of people where you have to carve off parts

25:06

of yourself to belong. I don't think

25:09

God's like that. I don't think that there's anything

25:11

that makes you who you are, whether it's your

25:13

experiences, your way of moving through the world, your

25:15

way of understanding things, your way of communicating, your

25:17

way of being, your place, your

25:19

people, the soil where you grew

25:21

and came of. I think that all those things

25:24

are part of how God speaks to us and

25:26

how God relates with us. And

25:28

theology is one part of that. I think

25:30

what you're saying too is that you found

25:33

God to be bigger than

25:35

what you had experienced beforehand.

25:37

And again, in my experience,

25:40

that's exactly what people get

25:42

worried about. No,

25:44

you got to keep it in this box here. Use

25:46

the word before God in a box. And I

25:48

think that's one thing that's threatening to a lot of

25:50

people. I think it's threatening to

25:52

the people going through it that it's getting...

25:54

I mean, I remember the first time I

25:56

thought to myself, maybe God

25:58

doesn't send Jews. to hell. That

26:01

was a long time ago, but you know. Or

26:03

maybe there is no hell, like maybe I

26:05

don't understand God at all. And

26:07

I think part of

26:10

the wilderness experience is that

26:13

we have to experience that. Yeah.

26:15

Well, with that, can you say more about

26:18

that experience? Because I think a lot of people

26:20

have that experience of maybe I don't know what

26:22

I thought I knew and sort of I was

26:24

resting on that. And it's tied similar to Pete

26:27

and your conversation about trusting yourself

26:29

and your own intuitions. And how

26:32

did you navigate that part

26:35

of the wilderness of learning

26:38

to listen to your intuitions

26:40

and discern what is

26:42

good to hold on to? What do

26:44

you let go of? It's a wisdom

26:46

practice. There is no, I'm sure, ABC

26:49

123 linear process. But for

26:53

you, particularly just I

26:55

think a lot of women who were

26:57

told explicitly not to trust themselves and that

26:59

they were being too emotional. And it

27:02

can be, it seems like it would

27:04

be a liberating experience. But in my

27:06

relationship with some folks, it

27:08

can actually be a painful experience

27:10

to discern that and

27:12

figure out how to lean

27:14

on your own intuitions and when to

27:16

still maybe lean on others in terms

27:19

of guidance and things. So how have

27:21

you navigated that in particular? Well,

27:24

there's a few different things that just kind of sprang to mind.

27:26

And so I'm not sure if any of this will be helpful.

27:28

But there's this passage of

27:30

scripture in Isaiah that

27:32

talks about how that when you

27:35

are on a path, you'll hear a voice saying this

27:37

way or that way turn left or to the right.

27:39

And there was this sense of trust to that, that

27:42

I found really beautiful of like, well,

27:44

what is this experience of

27:47

feeling like I'm in the wilderness, and

27:49

I do feel the risk and the loss of this

27:52

and the fear of it? What if I

27:54

can trust that this is an invitation from the Spirit

27:57

instead of a threat? And I

27:59

think even that shift initially for me,

28:01

I think initially I thought that

28:03

deconstruction was about trading one set of

28:05

ideas in theology and principles for another.

28:08

That it was like, you lost

28:10

A through Z theology, and so

28:12

now here's a nice new tidy,

28:14

more progressive set of certainties,

28:17

impurity tests and fundamentalism, you

28:19

know, and whatever else, right?

28:22

And that initial realization of like,

28:24

oh no, that's not the thing that's

28:26

being reset in me. It

28:28

turns out that it was never about trading one

28:30

set of answers for a different set of answers

28:32

as much as it was actually being transformed and

28:34

actually beginning to grow up and

28:37

realize that you had agency and

28:39

wisdom and knowledge and experiences and

28:41

that you could learn and ask

28:43

questions and experience wonder and even

28:45

a sense of curiosity. The

28:47

other thing I remember being really deeply

28:49

foundational for me was

28:52

being absolutely stubbornly like,

28:54

hang on with white knuckles,

28:57

nobody can take this from me, kind of

28:59

convinced that there was nowhere I could go

29:01

where God would not love me. I couldn't

29:03

out wander God, that

29:06

I could get a few things

29:08

wrong and still enjoy the

29:10

friendship of the spirit because

29:13

that had been true my whole life previous. I'd gotten

29:15

a million things wrong and I still

29:17

knew that I was loved by God.

29:19

I almost had this like sense of the

29:22

love of God is kind and patient. Maybe

29:24

it's kind and patient towards me. On my

29:28

own search for knowledge and

29:30

wisdom or let alone the kind of marriage that I

29:32

want to have, how I want to raise my children,

29:34

how I want to show up in my community, how

29:36

I want to show up for the questions of our

29:38

time. What are some of those

29:40

invitations that maybe I've been sleeping through and

29:43

that I've been missing? I

29:45

think that those undergirdings and

29:47

I could probably look back to my family of origin

29:50

for a lot of the gifts of that. I remember

29:52

really early in my own deconstruction process having

29:55

this very frank conversation with my dad because

29:57

it felt like we were losing everything. like

30:00

vocation and jobs and ministry and certainty

30:02

and friendships and the path we'd always

30:04

thought we would be on our evangelical

30:06

hero complex, which I clung to with

30:09

my itheath, you know, whatever else

30:11

it was. There was this moment where

30:13

I remember him saying to me, my parents were

30:15

first generation Christians. And so, you know, we had

30:17

kind of grown up in faith together and we

30:20

still are. But there was this

30:22

sense of him giving me almost permission

30:24

and grace for it. And I remember him saying,

30:26

I honestly believe that

30:28

you are really seeking God. And

30:31

I think you'll find what you're looking for, even if

30:33

it looks so different than what I found. And

30:36

even just that permission, and that

30:38

that reminder, that it might

30:40

look really different than what he had found

30:43

in God. But he was open and

30:45

curious. And he blessed that. And

30:47

he acknowledged the fact that God might be

30:49

bigger than his own experience, and

30:52

his own knowledge. And that was just

30:54

the... That's huge. Yeah, it was. It

30:56

was a really big thing for me, I think.

30:58

And it helped me withstand all of the flings

31:01

and arrows that were coming from a lot of

31:03

other corners in our life at the time. Yeah,

31:06

I was going to say, even just hearing that phrase, I think

31:08

would be such a breath of fresh air

31:10

for a lot of people to have that from

31:12

family members and loved ones and people in

31:15

their community to say, maybe we're

31:17

not going to end up in the same place. But I

31:19

think that I believe you're doing this in good faith, and

31:21

I think you're going to find what you're looking for. Yeah.

31:24

I think that's maybe some of the things we most need to hear

31:26

at that moment. A lot of times people will, at

31:28

a certain point, having

31:30

someone that you trust, even

31:33

if it's the self that

31:35

you are learning to trust within, say

31:37

that I'm not afraid. And then

31:40

I believe you're deeply loved in this search. And I

31:42

think you're going to find what you're looking for, even

31:44

if it looks really different than everything you knew before.

31:46

I think there's a lot

31:48

of exhale to that, that you

31:50

almost have to start to let

31:52

your real self live. All the

31:54

blurry edges and the complexities and the loveliness,

31:56

all those things get to be braided together.

31:59

Yeah. I mean, what you said before

32:01

I think is very powerful

32:04

to hear and I think people

32:06

who are going through this or

32:08

maybe despairing could use to hear that

32:10

God is with you in the

32:12

deconstruction. That alone shifts

32:15

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32:58

I think the metaphor, I've

33:00

never heard anybody actually say

33:02

this but I wonder if

33:04

the negative attitude towards deconstruction

33:07

is this wilderness metaphor for some people

33:09

because the wilderness, at least in the

33:11

Hebrew Bible, is almost always

33:14

a negative experience. It's not always the case. There

33:16

are a couple of places where it's like a

33:18

place where you're nurtured by God. But

33:20

for the most part, if you're just reading

33:23

like parts of Torah, for example, the numbers,

33:25

it's a place of punishment. It's

33:27

a place of alienation from God. Wilderness

33:29

is outside of the land. It's

33:32

that place you go to when you're not in God's

33:34

presence anymore. And I wonder

33:36

if that has the way that

33:38

metaphor is used in the Bible itself.

33:41

I wonder if that maybe fuels some

33:43

people even subconsciously to think

33:45

of this whole deconstruction business as

33:47

I'm straying from God rather than

33:50

thinking there's no place where God

33:52

isn't. No, I think so. I think

33:54

that is definitely part of it. Once

33:56

it was a couple of years ago at Evolving Faith, Barbara

33:58

Brown Taylor talked about how If the wilderness

34:01

can't kill you, then you're just actually in a park. You

34:03

know? Like there's... Oh, Barbara.

34:07

My evolving faith experience is really a community

34:09

park with a nice slide. That

34:11

would be nice. And

34:14

I think there is that element of danger to it, right?

34:17

There has to be that dark night of the

34:19

soul, that sense of quiet and silence

34:21

even, where there used to be maybe a

34:23

lot of certainty and voice that you thought

34:25

you knew. So I think that is

34:27

actually part of it. And I think that that's maybe

34:29

even part of the shift for

34:32

wilderness for me, with

34:34

maybe around some of those ideas, because

34:36

I began to see there's also invitations

34:38

where this could be an invitation to

34:40

intimacy, because there is such a stripping

34:43

away. There is such

34:45

a shedding things along the path that you

34:47

packed up and brought along with you that

34:49

you thought for sure you were going to

34:51

need. And it turns out they

34:53

are just holding you back. And

34:55

so there's oftentimes I think

34:57

that initial experience of loss in the

34:59

wilderness and that sense of danger, that

35:01

sense of precarity even,

35:04

and fragility for a lot of

35:06

it. I think some of the things we're surprised to

35:08

learn are fragile. Like a lot of us

35:10

didn't realize how fragile our belonging was until

35:13

we really got into the wilderness. And

35:15

then all of a sudden you're like, oh, turns

35:18

out it's precarious. Who is everybody? Yeah.

35:20

Well, with that, something you said earlier

35:22

reminded me of early in my deconstruction

35:24

process is probably 25 years ago at

35:27

this point as well. It

35:29

sounds really corny and cheesy at this point. But

35:32

in the Count of Monte Cristo, which

35:34

I'm a millennial, so I'll say I

35:36

love the movie. I didn't ever read the book. But

35:39

there's this point where Edmund Dontess is having

35:41

this crisis of faith. And he happens to

35:43

be in prison with a priest who's still

35:45

constantly talking of God and all these things.

35:47

And at some point, Dontess gets frustrated and

35:49

says, priest, you forget. I don't believe in

35:52

God anymore. And the priest says,

35:54

it actually doesn't matter because God still believes

35:56

in you. And that was

35:58

really a very impactful moment. phrase

36:00

for me at the time that

36:02

really helped me kind of carry through some of

36:04

the the times and so the dominant

36:07

metaphor in my head became more of the all

36:09

the doctrine and all the things I needed to

36:12

do and even though I wasn't supposed to have

36:14

to quote do anything I knew that insider

36:16

language we knew there were still some behaviors that

36:18

were good and things you needed to do and

36:20

say and learn and be smart about the Bible

36:22

and these things and there was a lot of

36:24

need to hold on to and so there was

36:27

a letting go process of needing not to hold

36:29

on but to realize that I'm held and

36:31

so I'm wondering for you was there a process

36:33

of a letting go

36:35

where that part of your evolving

36:38

faith is in doing less is

36:40

in needing to perform less and to letting

36:43

go of some of maybe the culture that

36:45

maybe you grew up with I know I

36:47

did so what how was letting go a

36:50

part of this journey for you

36:52

as well whether it's letting go of our

36:54

expectations or needing to do certain

36:56

things was that a part of your journey as

36:58

well absolutely it was I think

37:00

there's almost like that distillation or crystallization that

37:02

kind of can happen through all of that

37:04

so I grew up here in

37:06

the Rocky Mountains or in the foothills of the Rockies

37:08

in Alberta and we moved away for 25

37:11

years and then came home and

37:13

I've been reminded of so many things

37:15

that I learned then that I had

37:17

forgotten that have kind of come

37:19

back around being in the backcountry

37:23

and that's one of them is

37:25

how essential some things are and

37:27

how inessential other things are so

37:29

for instance even when we were talking just earlier

37:31

about wilderness and about whether or not there's a

37:34

sense of like danger and loss and an

37:36

exile even to it oftentimes I

37:38

found that I felt that sense of exile

37:40

in the backcountry or in the mountains because

37:43

I was trying to transpose my regular life

37:45

to that space I wanted to

37:48

bring along all the creature comforts I wanted

37:50

the lanterns and I wanted the flashlights and

37:52

I wanted all these like things that I

37:54

thought I needed in

37:56

order to exist in

37:58

this space and it was It wasn't until

38:01

I stopped trying to recreate

38:03

inside, outside, that I began

38:05

to realize how beautiful it actually is. That

38:08

I was only scared of the dark when I was trying to press

38:10

it away. But when I

38:12

would put away the flashlight and I would

38:14

let the moonlight and the starlight be

38:17

the thing that guided me, I let my

38:19

eyes adjust to the darkness, it

38:21

became like a friend instead of like

38:23

something to be afraid of. And you realize

38:25

how much light there is to see by. And

38:27

so I think that in some ways that

38:30

metaphor of like, well, I don't know that

38:32

I get to transpose everything that used to

38:34

work in the safe parlors of

38:36

my life that looked like a lot

38:38

of certainty. And instead, maybe a lot

38:40

of those things do need to be left

38:42

behind. And you need to understand you're not holding on

38:45

to things as much as you are being held. And

38:47

what does it look like to make friends with the darkness, to

38:50

learn how to speak some truth, to let

38:52

yourself be sad, to let yourself acknowledge the

38:54

things that have been breathing down your neck

38:56

that you haven't wanted to make eye contact

38:58

with. And I think there's an

39:01

element of grief to that, but

39:03

there's also this huge other part of it that

39:05

I don't know that

39:07

people who talk about deconstructing

39:10

know, which is also the joy

39:12

of it and the beauty of it and

39:14

the invitation of learning how to see

39:16

the stars outside. That's, I think,

39:19

the other part of that maybe. I mean, the word

39:21

that comes to mind as I'm hearing you describe

39:23

this, Sarah, is like there's a purging element

39:25

to this of the things that we hold on

39:27

to. And the end

39:30

result of that, it might not happen right

39:32

at the beginning, but at least that's my

39:34

experience. But I would say there's a sense

39:36

of relief almost and a release of not

39:38

having to hold on to these things. And

39:41

yeah, we can call, this German can call that

39:43

joy, I guess, if you want to. I don't

39:45

get me forced to use that word. I don't

39:47

really know how to spell it, but... What is

39:49

this? I hear of this joy thing. But this

39:51

joy you speak of. This

39:54

is the thing that people that criticize

39:56

this whole process as being somehow sub-Christian.

40:00

people who have gone through this and have

40:02

found peace with their own

40:04

existence. And it goes, and like

40:06

you said before, sir, I think this is so important,

40:08

you don't know where this is going to go. But

40:10

you're dealing with God, after all, right? So, why

40:13

would you know where this is going to go?

40:16

And for some people, it goes into spaces

40:18

that, you know, some others might not really

40:20

think is a right place to go, but

40:22

there are people who leave

40:24

faith entirely. And I mean,

40:26

I don't know how you feel about that, but that may be

40:29

where they have to be, given, you

40:31

know, their background, their histories, and maybe

40:33

being traumatized or having the faith weaponized

40:36

against them. And you don't know

40:38

where it's going to go, and that's the question.

40:40

That's what people bring to this

40:42

in a negative sense. You

40:44

don't know where this is going to go. And maybe

40:47

the proper response is, I

40:49

have to be purged of so many things, I'm not

40:52

even sure how to handle that right now. I just

40:54

have to, I can't not go through this. I

40:57

can't. I can't make believe. It's just going to

40:59

happen. And wherever it goes, it's going

41:01

to go. That's

41:03

so true. And there's both equal parts

41:06

fear and permission in that, isn't there?

41:08

Yes. There's this real sense of like, I

41:11

think that's maybe one of the things that

41:13

is difficult for people is that oftentimes

41:16

we were very first introduced to religion

41:18

as a path of certainty or

41:21

faith as like, here's

41:23

all your easily memorized answers. Here's

41:25

your index cards for apologetics.

41:28

Here's the if this, then that

41:30

performance of Christianity or whatever

41:32

else. And so when

41:35

you've been told your whole life that this is the

41:37

thing that it gives you, I think

41:40

it is that profound disorientation of like, what do

41:42

you mean? That wasn't the point all along. What

41:46

do you mean? Right? And so I think

41:48

that even that is different. I

41:50

think it's in a lot of ways very

41:53

similar to the developmental process of growing up

41:55

where there is deep necessity and importance of

41:57

that black and white toddlerhood or

42:00

for kindergarten seasons. Yeah, sure,

42:02

it's this, then that. It's good

42:04

and bad, whatever else. But you know what? If by

42:06

the time they're teenagers, they're not able to discern and

42:09

use wisdom and make decisions

42:11

not just because you're hanging over their shoulder

42:14

or making those decisions for them, then you haven't

42:16

served your kids super well, right?

42:18

And even had some room for them

42:20

finding new things and teaching you things

42:22

and exploring and opening up your life.

42:25

And I think, you know, maybe

42:27

that's even part of where some

42:29

of the fear is from folks

42:31

who are around us is because it was

42:33

their own purpose. That you're

42:35

almost meant to see people who

42:38

question as threats or

42:41

as outsiders. That somehow we're the

42:43

ones who have it all figured out and we've got

42:45

all the ducks in the row. And

42:48

it turns out, well, no, they were, it

42:50

was always just trying to put kittens in a box. And so

42:52

that's what it was always going to be. I

42:55

don't know, maybe we just weren't ever taught that that's normal. As

42:58

we finish up this conversation, maybe we

43:00

can end with a little bit of

43:02

a benediction, if you will, a place

43:04

of hope. And so my question is,

43:06

you know, Pete just mentioned, some have found

43:09

peace, some have found themselves, some have found

43:11

joy in the wilderness. Can we maybe end

43:13

with, what are some things that you found

43:16

in your own personal journey? What have

43:18

you found in the wilderness? People,

43:21

you get mad if I say joy again? No,

43:23

no. No. I

43:26

think that, for sure. I

43:28

think that joy and happiness, not

43:30

being some silly little thing, let

43:32

alone pursuing healing and wholeness, that

43:35

has been life-changing. But then there's other

43:37

invitations that I think I would have

43:39

missed. You know, whether it is

43:41

just that bone deep convincing about

43:43

the love of God being the truest

43:46

foundation of things. I would have missed

43:49

the fact that hope isn't some

43:52

wishful thinking, but like a real grit

43:54

in your teeth, show up for

43:56

the work, believe it, turn

43:58

towards it sort of thing. I

44:00

think that I would have missed learning how

44:02

to tell the truth about myself

44:05

or about the world or about the moments

44:07

and time that we find ourselves in. I

44:10

think it would have missed a lot of beauty around

44:12

me. I think I do not

44:14

miss at all being afraid and being able

44:16

to purge fear as a driving

44:18

force and instead being able to say, no, I'm

44:20

pretty sure that love and hope and all

44:23

these great big huge verbs and nouns

44:25

that we really yearn for, those are

44:27

actually the things I want motivating me.

44:30

Learning how to love the world again, learning how

44:32

to be a peacemaker instead of just someone like

44:34

I have a real tendency to be being more

44:36

of a peacekeeper, so that's one I'm still definitely

44:39

working on. I think that

44:41

those are some of the gifts that maybe we're not really

44:43

told along the way, even

44:45

new places of belonging and expanding practices

44:48

of community and belonging outside of maybe

44:50

the narrow ways and small lanes that

44:52

I always understood it. There's

44:55

been a lot of beauty and goodness in

44:58

being more true and I'm

45:00

grateful for it. And what's

45:02

interesting now at this stage, I've

45:04

gone through this process of evolution in multiple places.

45:06

I think that's one of the reasons maybe why

45:08

I like the phrase evolving faith more is it

45:11

lets me bring along the things that I still

45:13

find precious and good while being able to discard

45:15

and let go of and purge the

45:17

things that need to be released. But there still

45:19

are a lot of things that I love about this

45:21

story and a lot of things I love about my

45:23

tradition and a lot of things I love about us

45:25

as a community. And to me, I'm

45:27

not ready to be run off yet. Well, Sarah,

45:29

thank you so much for sharing your

45:32

wisdom with us, writing this beautiful book

45:34

Field Notes for the Wilderness and just

45:36

thanks for spending some time with us

45:38

today. No, it's always a joy.

45:46

And now for Quiet Time with Pete and

45:48

Jared. All right, well, this is

45:51

a topic that we know a thing or two about,

45:53

being in the wilderness, evolving

45:56

faith, deconstruction. So maybe just

45:58

for people who haven't had a chance to hear it. hear

46:00

your story in three to

46:02

five minutes. Take us through

46:04

your wilderness period and what are some

46:06

things that you've learned from that? I

46:09

hesitate to say you're out of the wilderness, so it's

46:11

not like it's in our past, but that initial experience

46:14

and where it's brought you to today. Yeah, I think

46:16

you're never out of it. You

46:18

learn to find streams and

46:20

shade in the wilderness and that's,

46:22

I mean, forgive the metaphor if

46:24

it doesn't help. For

46:27

me, it really was, the beginning

46:30

was intellectual. Absolutely.

46:32

It was reading the

46:34

Bible closely, first in seminary but then

46:36

really in graduate school and hearing people

46:39

who talk differently about the Bible than

46:41

I was used to. That

46:43

for me was the starting point. And

46:46

that's when I began thinking

46:48

maybe my tradition wasn't

46:51

right about stuff and it scared the life

46:53

out of me. I

46:55

was frightened at the thought of what

46:57

if I'm just wrong about God? And

47:01

I think the end result of this is like,

47:03

well, of course I'm wrong about God. I

47:05

mean, why would you think otherwise? Being

47:08

helped by communities and

47:10

by not necessarily

47:12

physical communities but online communities, reading

47:15

books, again, that's how I process things that

47:18

have helped me to

47:20

understand the changes that I was

47:22

experiencing. I found a lot

47:25

of help in a centering or contemplative

47:27

approach to life, which for me is

47:29

about letting go of the need to

47:31

be certain. I wrote the book, The

47:34

Sin of Certainty, for a reason because

47:36

I was working through all that stuff myself. So

47:39

the intellectual stuff started it but then, you

47:41

know, Jared, you got kids, you got your

47:43

family, you got life and it's

47:45

like, you know, things don't ever go

47:48

according to the script that you're handed.

47:50

And for us, part of that was

47:52

this is what a Christian family should look like,

47:54

blah, blah, blah. And I Never

47:57

did that stuff while like in the morning and

47:59

evening devotions. You'll get dressed up

48:01

to come to dinner occurs in God's Here

48:03

or something like that. I just. ah, so

48:05

that's really the satchel really unravel things as

48:07

you are not good. At

48:09

being. The christian leader of your family. That's.

48:12

Real Out More. That's absolutely true. A

48:14

nice but I think the reason why

48:17

is because I sold. Very.

48:19

In or sent them. Yeah, that wasn't true to

48:21

who you are you feeling exactly. So then I

48:23

tried to sort of hide that and make excuses

48:25

for it instead of saying. I. Can

48:28

hope for. Why am I mean is who

48:30

I am as just as whole mess of

48:32

jeans and lives and experiences and childhood. I

48:34

mean hell I'd never had a fighting chance.

48:37

So and I did. He have to believe that

48:39

God understands that and as I guess is not

48:41

a problem and. And. I'm working

48:43

through my existence of my own

48:46

way and being comfortable with simply

48:48

not having final answers to things

48:50

would drive some people crazy. Particularly

48:53

was Melee feeds ever gives his answers and like.

48:56

You're. Welcome. Yeah, I'm not giving you answers because

48:58

I don't even know what the answers are, but

49:00

I know there are has some better questions to ask

49:02

him. And. At least we can eliminate.

49:05

What? Isn't such a helpful answer? and

49:07

eight years why you know or to

49:09

to sort of purged to clear the

49:11

path of. About you I

49:13

would say similarly which have preceded you

49:15

know, having Sarah and others on talk

49:17

about their deconstruction to the think we

49:19

had a similar journey In terms of

49:21

does the intellectual pass enough for me.

49:24

There. Was a certain traditions and

49:26

since for the Southern Baptists tradition.

49:29

Team. To an end of that had too many questions

49:31

and seem like. There. Is a charismatic answer

49:34

to those things In in kind of came to

49:36

the end of that and that seem like reformed

49:38

theology had all the answers I was looking for

49:40

and and that sustained for a while. You know

49:42

they had a fan of a lot of answers

49:44

for a lot of questions as for sure throw

49:46

up but then you know you at some point

49:48

if you come to the end of that as

49:50

well. And and just that they're

49:52

just are questions that don't have answers. And

49:54

then you realize. Why? We're people

49:56

so dogmatic about things that don't seem

49:59

to have clearance. There's right or is

50:01

there any end in sight to

50:03

the questions and around things like

50:05

God And then that for me

50:07

started I started questioning the whole

50:09

enterprise, this theological enterprise because I

50:11

looked as at the so you

50:13

know suspiciously or people who seem

50:15

so. Committed. To descending certain

50:17

way as a merciless is a different over

50:19

we're thinking about it but as I get

50:21

older I'd say for me. What?

50:24

we're things get or got really heated

50:26

and I would say productive unhelpful was

50:28

I started to recognized. Through.

50:30

All of that process. God was a means

50:32

to an end. That really

50:34

what I was asked with safety

50:37

and control mode and certainty. Answer.

50:40

These questions started to expose my

50:42

true motives and I think for

50:44

me as I've healed emotionally and

50:46

psychologically release newly hopefully as I've

50:48

gotten more mature and more reflective,

50:50

my need for those things have

50:53

gone down. And. So God,

50:55

now in my life, gonna get to be

50:57

God and nudges the means to my ends

50:59

on a like I need God to function

51:01

in this way, God has. Provide.

51:04

Me with safety control uncertainty. And

51:07

whenever I'd have less of those knees,

51:09

I have less of a need to

51:11

put God in those boxes and I'm

51:13

function in a certain way to of

51:15

And so that's been out for a

51:17

hopeful process for me in the wilderness.

51:19

would you say it's sort of like

51:21

for you because that resonates with me.

51:24

Is. That they God is a thing over

51:26

there that has to adapt to my life.

51:28

Roy adapt to this. It's. More.

51:31

God. Person's voice. Almost like. That.

51:33

presence and landscape almost that were walking

51:36

in and it's out of this of

51:38

the most secure way of putting up

51:40

for this is very different way of

51:42

thinking about dot as the being out

51:45

there that can intrude into existence but

51:47

rather or needing god to function in

51:49

a particular way right biggest not as

51:51

gods like the landscape guys on functioning

51:53

in any wacko recessive i mean the

51:56

as like there's a deep reality but

51:58

we're humans and living or lives and

52:00

we have the questions that we have and this

52:02

landscape hopefully is aware of that.

52:06

The landscape knows we're going to trip over that rock

52:08

or there's shade over here, but a

52:11

lot of this is our finding our way, I

52:14

think. Right. And that's a big part of

52:16

it too is recognizing that faith

52:18

is big enough to include the

52:20

journey of tripping over rocks and

52:22

falling on our face and doing

52:24

things wrong where my old metaphors

52:27

of this judicial God who has just had

52:30

me on trial all the time. Yeah. And

52:32

I have to be found innocent and

52:34

part of it is you're not going to be

52:37

found innocent, so that's why Jesus came and so

52:39

you're fine. But culturally, there was

52:41

this whole other thing of, yeah, but you still have

52:43

to try really hard and everything you

52:45

are on the stand all the time.

52:48

You're always being judged. And

52:50

so letting go of that metaphor and

52:52

letting faith be the process of just

52:54

trying to figure it out and

52:56

that's okay. Not everything is this

52:59

cosmic moral judgment was

53:01

very liberating as well. And the big turn around, one

53:03

of the big turn arounds for me was reading

53:06

the Bible from that

53:08

perspective and watching biblical

53:10

writers, frankly, working things

53:12

out. And

53:15

the examples are many. Paul

53:18

is working out a theology in

53:20

light of this Jesus experience that

53:23

ruffled a lot of feathers

53:25

and he's not always consistent

53:27

throughout his writings because he's

53:29

working things out. Psalmists are

53:32

working things out. How do we deal

53:35

with this God who's absent? I

53:38

find that to be, again, getting

53:40

back to Sarah's episode, the normalizing

53:42

of that is, I

53:44

think, potentially a huge gift to people who

53:47

are just struggling with the very stuff that

53:49

you just talked about being a part of

53:51

a context where if you go

53:53

in this direction, you've wandered off

53:55

the beach blanket and you're going to burn your

53:57

toes and there's no hope for you. But

54:01

that blanket is just

54:04

dissolving under your feet anyway. You don't

54:06

have a choice. You're off the

54:08

blanket just by standing still. All

54:10

right. Life is complicated, Jeremy. Life is

54:12

complicated. I know. But you know

54:14

what? I'm okay with it. But you know what?

54:17

Good news is God is even more complicated. Yes.

54:20

Amen. Okay. All right,

54:22

folks. See ya. Well,

54:26

thanks to everyone who supports the show.

54:28

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54:53

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55:21

Ciao and Naomi Gonzales. Today

55:32

on Face for Normal People, we're talking a

55:35

little bit well, wool talking. All

55:37

right, sorry to get

55:39

– No, for sure. I appreciate you,

55:42

Lord Veteran, and not weathered. Come

55:44

to our lettered guide. You

55:49

know, we got all the intellectual Pete's got

55:51

that covered. Do

55:57

I, though? As the OA Lector. As

56:00

he always likes to remind us. Jared,

56:05

you're fired. Pete ruins deconstruction.

56:07

Pete ruins deconstruction. Pete

56:09

deconstruct deconstruction. Yeah. Goodness.