0:00

You're

0:00

listening to the Bible for normal people,

0:02

the only God ordained podcast on the

0:04

Internet. I'm Pete Enns. And I'm Jared

0:06

Bias.

0:12

Welcome everyone to this episode of

0:14

the podcast. Right now, let's get

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into our episode, which is

0:18

just you and me today. You and me. We're we're

0:20

gonna be thinking through

0:23

this question, how do we read the Bible

0:25

now that we've ruined it? And of course, we haven't ruined

0:27

it. We mean this. Why we? We mean

0:29

Pete because If you listen to the podcast,

0:31

Pete's always ring ruining books. He's ruined

0:34

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus numbers.

0:37

Little

0:37

Isaiah. Yeah. And

0:38

so we sometimes get this question. Okay,

0:41

great. Thanks for ruining it. Now what do

0:43

we do with it? And today, we're gonna answer

0:46

every single one of those questions with

0:48

I don't know. Pence,

0:51

we're gonna answer it well. Now,

0:53

of course, we're gonna end with more questions. That's

0:56

how we do things here at the Bible for example. We're

0:58

sort of Zen.

1:00

The history of the Christian church has

1:03

always taken the bible with utmost

1:05

seriousness, but they also

1:07

understood things like

1:09

flexibility and interpretation.

1:12

There are different ways of looking at these things.

1:14

And that's a gift,

1:16

I think. I mean, to to approached

1:19

the bible with the expectation that

1:21

people will come to different conclusions

1:23

on the basis of the what they're reading

1:27

From their own personalities, their own

1:29

experiences, that's simply an

1:31

acknowledgment of not the

1:33

bibles less than but of our own

1:35

human limitations and frailties.

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2:17

When some of this comes from a presentation

2:20

we gave not too long ago on

2:22

this topic, and one of the things maybe if

2:24

I can start us with this, We

2:26

played a lot off of one

2:28

of our previous guests, Walter

2:30

Brigham on. He has this metaphor

2:33

in a book called text under negotiation,

2:35

which I always recommend that you don't read it because

2:37

it's really nerdy and boring. Mhmm. There's a

2:39

lot of Brigham onBooks to read, maybe not that

2:41

one. But one of the really valuable things

2:43

is this idea of the Bible as

2:45

a compost pile. Mhmm. And for some

2:47

people, that's offensive. Yeah.

2:49

Because they think, oh, the bible's garbage then.

2:51

Yeah. But whenever you really take some time to

2:53

think about it, it's a really a beautiful metaphor

2:56

for

2:56

maybe

2:57

what we can do with the bible now.

3:01

Yeah. And it's I think it's also a beautiful metaphor

3:03

because it it seems to describe

3:06

the way the situation actually

3:08

is. So, you know, the idea,

3:11

Jared, that we've gone through a lot. We've talked

3:13

about this now and then is that the bible

3:15

is that out of which

3:17

things grow. It's not the

3:19

focus. Like, when you're planting a garden, you don't

3:22

you gotta have a good good soil, good compost.

3:24

But it isn't like, hey, come on over and look at

3:26

the compost only. it's what

3:28

grows out of it. And different gardens

3:31

grow different things. They may grow roses. They may

3:33

grow other kinds of flowers. They may grow vegetables.

3:36

in our garden at home, we have zucchini,

3:40

which I hate, but we also have

3:42

other vegetables that I can barely tolerate.

3:44

So it's It just depends. And and, you

3:46

know, different parts of the world, different soils

3:49

will grow different kinds of things, but

3:51

they're coming out of you know, to keep the

3:53

analogy, the same compost pile.

3:55

And over time, you know, people grow

3:57

different things. They have different tastes, I

3:59

guess. So I I find that valuable.

4:02

Sure. I just I think it's it's a helpful way

4:04

of thinking about the

4:06

beautiful things that grow up out of the

4:08

compost pile and

4:10

not everything that grows looks exactly

4:13

the same. And you might not even like some of the

4:15

things that grow out of it, but for

4:17

other people, it might be their

4:19

existence is on the line because they can grow

4:21

those carrots and that rhubarb or whatever they do.

4:23

Yeah. And I also like it because it

4:26

sets up the bible

4:28

as one thing of it. It's a necessary

4:30

thing in faith if

4:32

we're gonna keep the analogy, but it's not the

4:34

only thing It's not sufficient. There's

4:36

other things you need to grow

4:38

a healthy plant or

4:40

grow fruit. I mean, in some ways, this is a biblical metaphor

4:42

as Jesus talks about the fruit growing.

4:45

And so, yes, it's great to have soil, but

4:47

you also need rain, and you also

4:50

need sunlight. And there's these other

4:52

things that set up putting

4:54

the Bible in a context where

4:56

you need other things alongside of it. And

4:58

I think that's something that we've talked about more

5:00

and more in the last couple of seasons

5:02

that those things maybe are our own

5:04

experiences -- Mhmm. -- our tradition

5:06

-- Yeah. -- reason, wisdom.

5:09

Those are things that play into a life

5:11

of faith which may be new

5:13

for some people who always taught, you know,

5:15

Sola scriptura is a

5:17

little bit of a contradiction with this compost

5:19

pile analogy, as though that's all we need.

5:21

And, I mean, I I know some

5:23

fairly conservative people

5:25

who say, you know,

5:28

scripture is not sufficient in

5:30

and of itself. You you know,

5:32

our our our lives come into a tradition,

5:34

comes into it, reason comes into it.

5:37

or even like natural revelation? Yeah.

5:39

Like knowing just how

5:41

things work out there. Right? So

5:43

so, you know, I mean, you you engage

5:45

science or history and then you sort of

5:47

read portions of the bible and you say, listen,

5:50

I have to engage this biblical text

5:52

with all these other things. and

5:54

then something, let's say,

5:56

wonderfully theological can grow out

5:58

of those conversations. And

6:01

this is hardly a new idea. This

6:03

is something that has been with

6:05

the church since the very beginning. It's

6:08

just look at the ancient Greek fathers

6:10

and and and how they employed

6:12

philosophical language in their own

6:14

context to grow

6:17

certain things out of this compost

6:19

pile. And, you know, I I know Jared

6:21

that, you know, some listening here

6:23

might think, again, this is really degrading

6:26

of the Bible. But, again,

6:28

without the compost pile, nothing

6:30

grows. There's nothing there.

6:32

Right? So the compost is

6:34

nonnegotiable. It's just not sufficient.

6:37

It can't It's efficient. the only thing. It doesn't

6:39

grow things. on the eye

6:41

itself. Right. It needs another

6:44

thing. It's not the point. The

6:46

point is the growth. that

6:48

which comes out of it is the point. And sometimes,

6:51

I think, you know, my emphasis in my tradition

6:53

growing up was that bible

6:55

reading in itself is the

6:57

end, not the means, but the end.

6:59

It is the end. Yeah. And recognizing

7:01

when it's a means, like, you've talked about

7:03

it in past episode, the means of grace.

7:06

there are lots of means of spiritual

7:08

growth and faith formation and

7:10

the Bible is one of those. So I think that's important

7:12

when we talk about how to read the Bible now

7:14

that we've ruined it, it's putting it in

7:16

its proper place in the toolkit of

7:19

a vibrant faith. Right. Which

7:21

is, again, not to denigrate, but

7:23

to I would say

7:25

more to recognize. Well,

7:27

let's talk about that because if

7:30

you grew up thinking that the bible

7:32

had to be or was the inherent

7:34

word of God. In some ways, this

7:36

will feel like a denigration. But I would just

7:38

say that was an unrealistic expectation.

7:40

Yeah. What do you mean? To have on it. And

7:42

so just the idea of

7:44

integration is like, well, yeah, in some ways,

7:47

this is taking it down off this pedestal

7:50

of I guess the assumption

7:52

that a high view of scripture necessitates

7:54

in Air and Sea. Right.

7:56

Yeah. The the in other words, the compost

7:59

has to have

8:01

no pebbles in it. Right. Right.

8:03

With with that, maybe going a a direct

8:06

a a different direction, but similar. One

8:08

other thing I like about the compost pile

8:10

is that it's a

8:12

repository of tradition, and the

8:14

bible itself is a part of that tradition.

8:17

just like when we say out of

8:19

that grows new things, you

8:21

mentioned the church fathers in the fourth

8:23

century who they had the biblical

8:25

texts, and out of that, they added

8:27

Greek philosophy -- Mhmm. -- and that comes so many

8:29

language. And then the medieval

8:32

thealogians added onto that, and then

8:34

the reformers added onto that. And here we

8:36

are adding onto that. It is the

8:38

soil gets richer and richer and new

8:40

material gets put on top of it.

8:42

And the Bible isn't of a different

8:44

thing. It is part of that

8:46

tradition. Mhmm.

9:00

Now how about this though? Again, I'm I'm trying

9:02

to anticipate what some people might

9:04

say that okay, all these things get added,

9:06

but can anything be added? Is

9:08

you know, can you just can

9:11

anything come out of this? Or is there any

9:13

sort of boundary, you

9:15

know, are are some things

9:17

that grow out of it, just bad things to

9:19

grow out of a garden? And My answer

9:21

is, yeah, III think that's

9:23

true, but

9:26

holding the Bible to an unrealistic

9:29

standard, let's say, is not going

9:31

to guarantee that

9:33

you don't have that issue

9:36

to work through Right? People with the, quote,

9:38

highest view of the Bible, the most an

9:40

earnest of all an earnest, there

9:42

are problems with their interpretations.

9:45

with all of us because the

9:48

bible is not the

9:50

most unambiguous piece of

9:52

literature ever compiled. You

9:54

know, it's it's got questions that come up

9:56

in reading it. And so, an an

9:58

inherent Bible doesn't

9:59

safeguard guard what I

10:02

think people are what might

10:04

they might be concerned or afraid about thinking

10:06

of the bible like a compost spot.

10:08

Well and maybe more importantly,

10:10

I mean, more importantly, from my perspective, for some,

10:12

you know, doctrine is the most important thing.

10:14

But for me, it doesn't safeguard against

10:16

a people who love

10:18

like Jesus. Right. So you can

10:20

have an an inherentist idea that the

10:23

bible will give us it's

10:25

sufficient and necessary for everything that

10:27

we need yet we still have things

10:29

like the SBC scandal with all

10:31

this sexual abuse going on in the

10:33

church. And so this

10:35

perfectionistic idea of the bible doesn't

10:37

safeguard against what I think is the more important

10:39

thing -- Right. -- which is how we live our lives --

10:41

Mhmm. -- in relationship to each other. So

10:43

for me, yeah, it's a little bit risky,

10:46

but I also think it's not only realistic,

10:48

but important to give weight to the

10:50

community. And so this goes back

10:52

to which came first in an errand

10:54

bible or a church of the people

10:56

of God, the community of God, the

10:58

rule of faith, that then the the

11:00

supports. And I think that's still true

11:02

today. So when we say,

11:04

how do we safeguard against this? The

11:06

answer is not in an inherent book. it's

11:08

in the community of people being

11:10

shaped into the likeness of Jesus.

11:12

Mhmm. In community with

11:14

each other, holding each other accountable,

11:17

to this idea. And for me, that's a

11:19

part and parcel of what we'd call wisdom.

11:21

Right. And it's not that

11:23

doesn't happen let's say,

11:25

apart from the bible, it

11:27

happens in the engagement of

11:29

the bible as well. because,

11:32

again, I'm anticipating an objection that well

11:34

well, how do you know, you know, you

11:36

can love all you want to, but how do you know if

11:38

you have a right doctrine of this or that and you have to pay

11:40

attention to the bible and you can't just jettison

11:42

the well, nobody's jettisoning anything.

11:45

We're just recognizing that

11:47

this is not a pyramid that we're building where

11:49

the foundation is a perfect flawless

11:51

or you have a perfect flawless bible and

11:53

everything else grows out of that. It's

11:56

more of, like, a matrix and interconnection

11:58

of of nodes on the web and,

12:00

you know, if you can imagine that

12:02

and just signals firing back and

12:04

forth. And together, those

12:07

signals firing back and forth make

12:10

us and how we think and

12:12

how we process and and,

12:14

you know, love as part of that

12:16

net, that matrixes, I think,

12:19

Well, I mean, that's so clearly

12:21

biblical. Right. It's so

12:23

clearly part of the tradition

12:25

that rises to the top, I think.

12:27

You know, with that kind of I wanna come back to the

12:29

question for this episode of how do

12:31

we read the bible now that we've ruined it.

12:33

And I think one thing we've

12:35

said is we read it in concert with these

12:37

other things. Mhmm. And I think that's really

12:39

important. It's not that

12:41

foundation that then

12:43

everything has to be you know,

12:45

filtered through. Mhmm. But it

12:47

is a node on a,

12:49

you know, multimodal network

12:52

-- Mhmm. -- of faith expression, which again

12:54

isn't new -- Right. -- this is

12:56

going back centuries -- Mhmm. -- for how

12:58

the church thought about faith. But I

13:01

think that's how we read the bible now.

13:03

that we've ruined it is we put it

13:05

in its proper place in the toolkit

13:07

of faith. Again, for

13:09

some, if that was the only tool that mattered,

13:12

it might feel like we're jettisoning the

13:14

bible. But what we're really saying is it's

13:16

just one thing among many. It's an important

13:18

thing. Right. But it is only one.

13:20

Yeah. Yeah.

13:22

And I think

13:24

there's in a sense what you're saying is

13:26

partly this is going back

13:28

to some pre modern sensibilities.

13:30

Right? Which a lot of

13:33

theologians talk about and say, yeah, that's that's

13:35

pretty much needed. And I'm reminded of your

13:37

series of the of the modern

13:39

mindset. How I mean, not

13:41

to beat a dead horse here, but how

13:44

certain approaches to the nature of

13:46

the bible that

13:49

make it a foundation to

13:51

everything that we do and think, that

13:53

is a product of that modern

13:55

mindset. And not really a

13:57

mindset that's been part

13:59

of the historic, both

14:01

Christian and Jewish faiths over the past couple

14:03

thousand years. So there's a sense

14:05

in which you know, I I don't

14:07

mind saying, Jared, I don't know about you, but I I

14:09

think there's there's a sense in which

14:11

a course correction is

14:13

needed. And I think that course

14:15

correction is coming from people

14:17

who are saying, I can't do this

14:19

anymore. This doesn't make sense of

14:21

my reality. and I

14:23

need to find a different relationship,

14:25

let's say, with the bible.

14:28

And, you know, if there's anything

14:30

that we're about talking about. It's

14:32

that. It's it's how do we have a different

14:34

relationship with the bible and a

14:36

way of of trying to discover what that

14:38

is. It's just listening to other people talk and how

14:40

they engage it and why they engage

14:42

it. Yeah. So with

14:44

that, you know, listening to other people, I

14:46

think it's a it's a great segue to

14:48

our next point, which is, you know, how

14:50

do we read the Bible? I think seeing it as a compost

14:53

pile, not the end in itself, but

14:55

that which new things can

14:57

grow out of. I think, two, seeing

14:59

it as one tool among many in

15:01

the toolkit. But then thirdly,

15:03

with what you just gave as a new

15:05

metaphor of this pyramid, you

15:07

might say pyramid in the net. Right? Let's lay off

15:09

the old David Klein's -- Yeah. -- essay,

15:11

nerdy reference that no one will

15:14

get. But if we have the pyramid in

15:16

the net, now let's go with that metaphor.

15:18

Whenever you have a pyramid, we have the

15:20

foundation and everything has to build off

15:22

of that. You can't have diversity or

15:24

plurality in how we interpret the

15:26

Bible because we're looking for a sure

15:28

foundation. So we need the one correct

15:30

interpretation. Right. it's not

15:32

about what grows out of it. It's not about

15:34

this network. It's about the

15:36

one true meaning of that

15:38

text so that we can have certainty

15:40

in surety and grow out of that

15:42

and build on top of that. Build on top

15:44

of that. But if we have a net

15:46

where it's all these nodes, then

15:48

actually diversity and plurality strengthens

15:51

because the more nodes we

15:53

have, the fuller picture we get. Mhmm.

15:55

And so that's I think another good

15:57

point to make about how we read our bible is we

15:59

read it within or

16:01

respect for diversity and plurality.

16:04

Right. And, you know, just back to

16:06

that analogy of the pyramid, it's

16:08

like, if the point of the pyramid

16:11

is to make that foundation

16:13

as solid and removable and permanent

16:15

as possible, not something

16:17

that grows and changes and

16:19

interacts and you don't put some bricks

16:21

and then some pebbles and then acorns

16:23

or something on the yeah. You have to

16:25

have that sure foundation. Now,

16:28

let's think of that Him, the Church's One

16:30

Foundation is Jesus

16:32

Christ for Lord, which is not

16:34

saying the same thing as the

16:36

Bible. Right? And And I think,

16:38

you know, in in my opinion,

16:40

just from my own studying this stuff over

16:42

the years in YouTube, Jared, the

16:45

history of the Christian church has

16:47

always taken the bible with utmost

16:49

seriousness. But they

16:51

also understood things

16:53

like flexibility in interpretation.

16:55

There are different ways of looking at

16:57

these things. And that's

16:59

a gift, I think. I mean, to

17:02

to approach the Bible with the expectation

17:04

that people will come

17:06

to different conclusions on the basis of of

17:08

what they're reading from

17:10

their own personalities, their own

17:12

experiences, which is huge. I

17:14

mean, how many guests

17:16

have we had on the podcast over

17:18

the past six years who are

17:20

people of color or people who

17:22

are not like us in one way or the

17:25

other who have insights into just

17:27

the nature of god or the nature of

17:29

faith or the nature of the bible

17:32

that we might not have gotten to in the

17:34

course of our existence because we

17:36

just don't see things the same way.

17:38

Right? So that

17:40

I think the flexibility

17:42

notion and the plurality notion,

17:45

that's simply an acknowledgment of

17:47

not the bibles less but

17:49

of our own human limitations and frailties.

17:51

You know, how how can

17:53

you just say, here's a book, this is

17:55

how you understand everything

17:57

this is the one way to understand it. And if

17:59

you don't, God's really mad

18:02

at you. Right? What

18:04

what if this is more of a compost pile

18:06

that generates things Yeah.

18:08

I'm just I'm just remembering here

18:10

Rachel Harold Evans in her book,

18:12

a year of biblical womanhood,

18:15

and what she learned from engaging

18:19

Jews for reading her own bible

18:21

and they how much they

18:23

they revel around the notion of

18:25

this flexibility and plurality

18:29

without feeling the need to come

18:31

to a solid

18:34

final answer that everyone agrees on.

18:36

That's not really known in

18:38

Jewish interpretation. Frankly, it's

18:41

really that known and interpretation either.

18:43

But that's what it is. And

18:46

because their their foundation is

18:49

not the bible,

18:51

their foundation is the tradition

18:53

that's been built over the years around

18:55

the bible. And the the

18:57

what unifies them is their

18:59

own Jewish heritage. Right? So, you

19:01

know, to Christians, you could draw an

19:04

analogy a a little bit and say, well, what

19:06

holds Christians together? Well,

19:08

the church is one foundation is

19:11

Jesus Christ or Lord. And, well,

19:13

what does that mean? Great question. We can

19:15

talk all about what Jesus Christ

19:17

or Lord means, and that's part of it. But trying

19:19

to get at those things is

19:21

a big thing that unites us even

19:23

though we look at it. differently. And that

19:25

I don't know, Joe. I just get happy thinking

19:28

about that because it just takes all

19:30

it takes the pressure off.

19:32

Right? Right. When again, for me, what takes

19:34

that pressure off and and it's circling back

19:36

to what we said earlier is

19:38

another way of saying, if the if

19:40

we change what the goal is,

19:43

then we can we we're less

19:45

anxious about who's in and who's

19:47

out and who's right and who's wrong.

19:50

it's it's like saying, when we

19:52

go to the gym, what's the goal? If the goal

19:54

is to get stronger, each of

19:56

us have to set up our own

19:59

workout in our own way because we recognize the

20:01

diversity of our body types and where we're

20:03

starting from and what

20:05

our what are our aim and we're all doing it

20:07

in our own way. I just wouldn't go to the gym.

20:09

But anyway, go ahead. Continue, please.

20:11

So so then whenever we

20:13

see that to get to the same end, we need a

20:16

different means. Each of us have to go,

20:18

added our own way, I

20:20

think it helps us to that's

20:23

different than, no. The most

20:25

important thing is that you all do it the same

20:27

way. Yeah. So it's changing the ends

20:29

with the means. And I think that comes back to this

20:31

compost pile that at the end of the day, just when you

20:33

were talking about Jewish tradition, I feel

20:35

like there's a huge emphasis on being

20:37

faithful to God. Mhmm. How can we be

20:39

faithful to god in our generation? Mhmm.

20:41

And if that's the anchor to be faithful

20:43

to god, then how we

20:46

get there? is gonna be different for different people. It's gonna be

20:48

through the arguing. It's gonna be through the process.

20:50

It's not gonna be through the

20:52

no. You just do 123

20:54

and you get to four and everybody's always gonna be

20:56

the same and you're always gonna do it the same

20:58

way. This is conveyor about mentality

21:01

of what faith is about. It reminds me of

21:03

I think we've said it a couple times, but I think John

21:05

Levinson says, you know, for

21:07

Jews faith is a problem to be solved, and

21:10

for Christians, It's a message to

21:12

be proclaimed. Mhmm. Yeah. That The

21:14

bible is is a message. Yeah.

21:16

Right. The bible. Yeah. And

21:18

so that difference of mentality because

21:20

whenever it's a message to be proclaimed

21:22

as a Christian tradition in the last couple

21:24

hundred years at least in America, we've gotten

21:26

really good at making it a product

21:28

that gets put on an assembly line and we get replicated over

21:30

and over and over. We're mass producing

21:33

it rather than getting into

21:35

the weeds of a problem to

21:37

be solved. which takes creativity

21:39

and innovation and community and

21:41

back and forth. It's just a very

21:43

different way of seeing how we engage

21:45

this text. Well, I mean, I could be wrong

21:47

about this because, you know, I'm I'm I wanna

21:49

say something that's sort of very big here, and

21:52

and I'm I'm not convinced I have it all

21:54

right. But I think what

21:56

fuels, let's say, that

21:58

assembly line product mentality

22:01

is maybe like an like

22:03

an unconscious assumption

22:06

that that god

22:09

is way off someplace. And

22:12

what we have is the bible. And

22:14

the bible is god's presence

22:16

with us. And,

22:18

you know, one change in my life over pass at least

22:20

definitely fifteen years is thinking

22:23

more of the

22:25

presence of the spirit of God in

22:27

in all people and all things and

22:29

just permeating the entire

22:31

universe, which sounds new AG to some

22:33

people, but it's I don't think it's that at all. This is

22:35

a very ancient Christian idea, you

22:38

know. But I I think

22:40

if you're not trying to

22:43

if you don't think your job

22:45

is to access God from a distance through your

22:47

obedience to scripture. But if you

22:49

think rather the presence is

22:51

their present all the time,

22:54

and your job is more to become aware of

22:56

that presence. And the Bible then

22:58

becomes AAA means

23:01

engaging it in community

23:04

with other people of of

23:06

becoming aware of a presence that's

23:08

already there, not something that's far off in

23:10

some galaxy someplace. Right? So

23:12

in other words, I think the deeper problem

23:15

here is truly a

23:17

theological problem in the strict sense of

23:19

the word. It's theo God.

23:21

How we picture God

23:23

really affects how we think about

23:25

the bible. I think those two things are

23:28

not distant. And so when you

23:30

criticize the bible, the the

23:32

responses I get regularly

23:34

are basically you're

23:36

actually critiquing God. They might not put

23:38

a quote that directly, but that's exactly what

23:40

they're saying. Like, when you mess with the

23:42

Bible, you mess with God, because this is God's word and

23:44

God inspired it. And so, you know, the

23:47

two things are basically two two

23:49

sides of the same coin. Yeah.

23:51

And III find that

23:53

to be a depressing way of

23:55

thinking about the nature of reality

23:57

quite frankly. Doesn't work

23:59

for me.

24:10

I think that's really good. And

24:12

I I'd like to maybe use this as a

24:14

chance to to move into some of our personal

24:16

experiences because I think that might be helpful for

24:19

people like how we utilize it. But I for me,

24:21

personally, I would wanna tag onto that, you

24:23

know, for you talking about changing how

24:25

you've you've got to know not being

24:28

transcendant up there and out there far away,

24:30

but present in people

24:32

and things. Another shift for me

24:34

that was really big, I'd say, over the last twenty

24:37

years, moving away from

24:39

the god that can be controlled

24:41

and explained in

24:44

a systematic theology textbook

24:46

to a god that cannot be understood or tamed

24:49

in that way. And I think when we're talking about, you

24:51

mentioned the spirit of God being

24:53

bigger than the Bible, I couldn't help but

24:55

think of in in John's gospel

24:57

when they talk about the spirit and does the

24:59

spirit goes where it

25:01

wishes. And that's that scary idea that

25:03

it's not attainable. It's

25:05

not controllable. and we gain some

25:07

things with that. We also lose some. We lose

25:09

the sense of certainty and we

25:11

lose the sense of safety.

25:13

That's what a god who's contained in

25:15

a book. gives us. When you have

25:17

God that's contained in the book, we get to

25:19

master it. We get to

25:21

dissect it. We get to parse it out because it's

25:23

literally words on a page. But

25:25

if God's bigger than that, then

25:27

now we have an uncontrollable God and it

25:29

feels scarier. And I think that

25:31

I think that's an important

25:33

shift for me too is to have this bigger God

25:35

than the systematic theology books

25:37

led me to believe. Mhmm. And,

25:39

you know, for me,

25:42

you know, maybe a little somewhat ironic

25:45

an ironic turn is

25:48

that coming to that realization that

25:50

you just spoke I I've come to

25:52

those realizations by

25:55

studying the bible -- Yeah. -- very deeply. And it's

25:57

not like, oh, I found the answer here in this

25:59

verse. It's more like This

26:01

whole collection of writings don't work the

26:04

way others have insisted

26:07

on pain of death that you

26:09

agree with. it is that, you know,

26:11

these diverse writings that

26:13

have tremendous ambiguity and

26:16

the the the antiquity of

26:18

it all It's not an easy

26:20

book. You wrestle with the Bible.

26:22

Wrestling with the Bible is what people

26:24

of faith do. It is that you go to

26:26

a verse and this explains everything.

26:28

you look at passages where

26:30

it seems like God's gonna put

26:32

people in in eternal torment when they

26:34

die and others like God loves the world

26:36

so much, you know, that, you know, he he

26:39

gave his only begotten son.

26:41

And, you know, I know people have ways of putting

26:43

these things together, but they do tensions.

26:45

How do you reconcile the flood story

26:48

with the cross? And I despite

26:51

attempts, I don't think that's something that's very

26:53

very easy to do. you have

26:55

different portrayals of God in the

26:57

bible. And and that's the kind of

26:59

thing. And especially when you look at it

27:01

in in the context historically in which

27:03

some of these things were written, you

27:05

just start coming up with

27:07

a view of the bible that

27:09

is not that

27:12

picture perfect you know, garden

27:14

in a greenhouse at

27:17

what's that Longwood garden near our

27:19

place? A few people that don't know

27:21

what along with Gardeners you need to just Google because

27:23

it's a beautiful place, but like it's this picture

27:25

perfect thing. It's pristine. Don't don't pick

27:27

any Very curated. very

27:29

curated. That's the word. Right?

27:31

So I I'm finding the Bible to be

27:33

very uncurated. Right?

27:35

It's just not it's just not curious. It's just this

27:38

author clearly has never read this other

27:40

guy or he has.

27:42

So he doesn't even care. He just puts it right

27:44

in. And to me, that the compost

27:47

pile analogy helps me

27:49

give language and concepts

27:52

to what I have found to be

27:54

in my life and my understanding how

27:57

the bible works, and just what the bible

27:59

is, and now the question, of course, is,

28:01

okay, what do we do? Is that wrong? Yeah. And

28:04

and with that too, and I and I appreciate you bringing that

28:06

part of it in when you talk about

28:08

the way the bible functions. Because

28:10

another thing that's helped me in what to do

28:12

with the bible now that I have this other view of

28:14

it, is to see the Bible as literature

28:17

and how that that in

28:20

my tradition that meant it wasn't

28:22

very valuable. the

28:25

So we had we I had a

28:27

dichotomy presented before me. I had

28:29

a choice Either the bible is the

28:31

inerrant word of God, which is

28:33

of utmost value because it gives us

28:35

certainty in what we can know and how we can know God

28:37

and how we can be safe for or

28:39

it's not an errant Bible. It's it's not

28:41

the an errant word of God. And therefore isn't

28:43

really worth much of anything.

28:46

And so once I let go of this idea of an air and

28:48

see, I was confronted

28:50

with the fact that I

28:52

assumed it meant nothing because that was the

28:54

two categories I was given. it's

28:56

either this or it's nothing.

28:58

And literature actually gave

29:01

me the reminder I needed that those

29:03

are not the only two options. that

29:05

there are some beautiful writings in the

29:07

world that impact us not

29:09

as divine authority that's

29:11

gonna smack us down if we don't agree with

29:13

it. but in a in a way that beautifully resonates

29:16

with our humanity and and where we

29:18

are, it motivates us from the inside out,

29:20

not from the outside in. And

29:22

so there's a reason why we have lord of

29:24

the rings that endures even into the twenty

29:26

first century, you know, a hundred years

29:28

after it was written. There there's a reason

29:30

these stories resonate late from three hundred

29:32

years ago, five hundred years ago, a thousand, two

29:35

thousand years ago. It's not because there's a divine

29:37

authority that makes it ever

29:39

green It's because there's something in it that

29:41

resonates with our humanity. And so

29:43

seeing and valuing the Bible as literature is

29:45

something that can motivate us as it resonates

29:47

with our humanity. has helped me not

29:50

to see it as a divine authority but as

29:52

this engine of creativity. Right.

29:54

From the inside out rather than

29:56

outside in and the word that comes to

29:58

my mind is sparking our

30:00

imaginations. One of the

30:02

more significant moments of

30:04

my early life was after college. This is

30:06

before I went to Seminary thing like

30:08

that, but I read the chronicles of

30:11

Narnia. And I

30:12

mean, I'm a

30:13

college graduate reading children's books. I couldn't

30:16

put them down. Right? because

30:18

they spark my imagination and they gave

30:20

me I think theology

30:22

and imagination go

30:24

together hand in glove.

30:26

Theology is not simply an

30:29

analytical exercise rooted

30:31

in knowledge of Hebrew or

30:33

Greek or the Latin fathers of the

30:35

Greek fathers of the Reformation it's

30:38

because it's supposed to be a

30:40

connection with the divine, involving

30:43

us as people were not

30:45

machines, were people with hopes and dreams

30:47

and imaginations. And

30:49

and I know I know that's gonna sound

30:51

very weird to some people listening like

30:53

your imagination is sinful. You can't listen

30:55

to that. I get news about your reasoning is simple

30:57

then too. Everything about you has

30:59

fallen. If you believe in that, right,

31:01

everything about you is a mess,

31:03

including how you read the bible -- Mhmm. --

31:05

and how you and and me too. It's amazing

31:07

that total depravity doesn't seem to affect

31:09

our reason. Yes. Exactly.

31:12

But Anyway, that's for different pockets.

31:14

That's for different pockets. Yeah. So imagination.

31:16

You were saying imagination. Yeah. Imagination

31:18

is really, really important. And I know

31:20

just stuff I've been reading lately about

31:23

science and and religion and things like

31:25

that. It's in other theologians who

31:27

talk about imagination

31:29

is crucial to the theological

31:32

task we're dealing with things that we simply can't understand and

31:34

we know we can't understand it. We can't

31:36

understand the quantum world. We can't understand the

31:38

the the cosmology with size of

31:40

things, the age of things. we have

31:42

no frame of reference. And to

31:44

think of God involved in all of

31:46

that is an act of

31:48

imagination. It's not an act of exe Jesus. It's

31:50

not an act of finding the right bit of

31:52

soil in that compost pile.

31:54

It's it's just imagining

31:56

what the garden can look like when

31:58

when you're done working with it. You know?

32:01

And And it's not gonna be a perfect

32:03

garden, but that's not the point.

32:05

It's not about perfection. It's

32:07

about communion, I would say. Yeah. And

32:09

imagination's crucial to

32:11

that. And and for me, and I think we should probably wrap it up

32:13

here in a minute. So my my final thought

32:16

is, I think of it as a

32:18

polarity. And if you we're there

32:20

are two sides of this coin for me,

32:22

and I'm gonna just speak kind of personally for

32:24

how I read the bible now.

32:27

And for a while, I tried to reconcile these two, and then I just

32:29

recognized there's an ebb and flow and there's a

32:31

polarity here where it's not an either or. It's a

32:33

both hand and it depends on where I am and

32:35

it depends on what I'm doing.

32:38

And that is, you called

32:40

it kind of this analytical and

32:42

this imaginative side. And

32:44

I would call it there's many ways

32:46

we can present this polarity. There's

32:49

reading it for the original intention.

32:51

What did the authors actually intend? and

32:53

then for my own spiritual growth

32:56

today. Those are two

32:58

different ways. They're not

33:00

really easily reconciled. they're two

33:02

different ways. And for me to

33:05

mutually respect or honor the

33:07

original intention and

33:09

my own context, I

33:11

can't reduce one to the other. They

33:13

stand in conversation with each other at all

33:15

times, and I'm constantly going back

33:17

and forth between the two because that's what

33:19

a relationship and a conversation is --

33:21

Even some tension a little bit. -- some tension for

33:23

sure. That's how relationships work. And

33:25

so that for me is the ebb and

33:27

flow. Sometimes I go to the bible, another way I say

33:29

it is, I going to the Bible to understand

33:31

it or to stand under it? And those are two

33:33

different things. If I'm going to understand it, then

33:35

I put my thinking cap on and I'm at

33:37

the original languages and I'm reading my study

33:39

bibles and I'm reading commentaries and

33:41

I'm trying to understand the original context.

33:44

That's different when I'm going to the Bible to under it, which is more

33:46

to be convicted

33:48

on how am I living my life? Am I loving

33:50

well? Am I not? And and I

33:52

will look for that. So

33:54

that is the lens. I would call it like the

33:56

love centered lens -- Mhmm. -- that I am putting

33:58

on specifically for the purpose. And I

34:00

don't do that just with the Bible. I do that

34:02

in relationship with other people. Sometimes I'm

34:04

trying to understand my friends and sometimes I'm

34:06

asking them to look at me and give me feedback and

34:08

give me criticism how can

34:10

I improve I see that as my church community. And sometimes you hate your

34:12

cohost. Sometimes I hate my cohost, and I don't

34:14

want feedback

34:16

from them. No. So that's

34:18

kinda hard. And for me, that's a very

34:20

practical you know, sometimes I think

34:22

we try to reconcile these two. And for me, I've

34:24

I've given that up and seen the beauty and the

34:26

polarity of sometimes I'm going to

34:28

understand and sometimes I'm going to stand under.

34:30

Right. And that's a good thing

34:32

to end on, I think. Yeah. Actually, we can't

34:34

say everything here. No. gonna have you said a

34:36

lot. This this keeps going.

34:38

That's right. What is the Vinyl? What do we do with

34:40

it? That How else are we gonna have the

34:42

seventh season? or the seventieth season if we're around that long. Exactly.

34:44

I can do this one on a hundred and thirty. That's

34:46

not a problem. I can I can do

34:48

that. Alright,

34:50

folks. See you next time. See you.

34:53

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