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at funturns50.com. Born

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in Mogadishu, Somalia in 1969, Ayaan Hirsi

0:34

Ali's journey is a testament to the

0:36

resilience of the human spirit. Born

0:39

into a devout Somali Muslim family, Ayaan

0:41

received a strict Muslim education and in

0:43

1992 was married, against her will, to

0:45

a distant cousin. Fleeing

0:47

from this forced marriage, armed only with

0:49

intellectual curiosity and unwavering determination, she sought

0:52

refuge in the Netherlands. It

0:54

was here that she found her voice, her passion for

0:56

women's rights, and her commitment to challenging the status quo.

0:59

As a member of the Dutch parliament, Ayaan Hirsi

1:01

Ali became a prominent voice for reform within Islam

1:03

and a fierce critic of the failures of multiculturalism.

1:06

Her collaboration on the film's submission with director

1:08

Theo van Gogh, who was tragically murdered for

1:10

his work, brought international attention to the plight

1:12

of Muslim women and the need for cultural

1:14

introspection within Western societies. Since

1:16

then, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has dedicated her life

1:18

to advocating for the rights of women, minorities,

1:20

and dissidents living under oppressive regimes. Today,

1:23

Ayaan's insights into the dangers of political Islamism,

1:25

the need for reform within Muslim communities, and

1:27

the defense of Western values are more relevant

1:29

than ever. In this special conversation,

1:31

we have the privilege of delving into Ayaan's extraordinary

1:33

life journey, her groundbreaking work

1:36

in promoting freedom and equality, and her latest reflections

1:38

on the state of the world. From

1:40

the rise of radical ideologies to the challenges facing

1:42

liberal democracies, we'll explore the complexities of our modern

1:44

age through the lens of one of its

1:46

most fearless and insightful voices. So

1:48

join us for what promises to be a thought-provoking

1:51

and enlightening discussion with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, here on

1:53

the Sunday Special. Ayan,

2:05

thank you so much for taking the time. It's

2:07

wonderful to see you. Folks, if you've not checked

2:09

out Ayan Hursey Ali's sub-stack yet, you absolutely should.

2:11

So Ayan, I want to start with what

2:14

may be the biggest crisis facing the

2:16

West. And there are really two aspects

2:19

of this. One is a failure of the West

2:21

to understand itself, and one is a failure of

2:23

the West to understand other parts of the world.

2:25

There's this sort of peculiar arrogance

2:29

and I don't know,

2:31

centrality, a self-centrality to

2:34

the West view of itself that everybody thinks

2:36

the way that we do. But obviously, your

2:38

story is a story about growing up in

2:40

a place that is not the West and

2:42

how you journeyed from there through the West

2:44

through a series of various iterations. What

2:47

can you tell people who are born in the West about the

2:49

way that large parts of the rest of the world think? Well,

2:53

let me start by the first part of

2:55

your question, which is what's the biggest challenges

2:57

facing the West? And in

2:59

my view, the biggest challenge by

3:01

far is the West's insecurity about

3:03

its own legacy, about

3:06

its own Judeo-Christian

3:08

traditions, about the

3:10

institutions it has built, about its

3:12

own prosperity and the values that

3:14

led to that prosperity. At

3:17

some point, the West has allowed itself to

3:19

feel guilty and that

3:22

guilt was weaponized against it. And

3:26

we now face this, in my

3:28

view, again, formidable or this become

3:30

formidable over time. These three forces

3:32

that we talk about all the time,

3:34

the Chinese Communist Party and

3:37

its ideology that is in some ways a

3:39

resurgence of communism and in other ways it

3:42

is sort of a warping of capitalism where

3:44

they gain a lot of money to then

3:47

desire to be the world's hegemon

3:50

and then authoritarian Putin,

3:53

Russia, and of course, the Islamist

3:56

threats today projected by

3:58

the Islamic Republic of Israel. Iran

4:01

and you see this incredible obsession

4:03

with the destruction of Israel. Israel

4:05

is the only democracy, the only

4:07

western society in the

4:09

Middle East and it's our ally and

4:12

both the European powers and America.

4:14

We've promised over and over again that we

4:17

will secure Israel's future and that's

4:20

been constantly challenged. So I

4:23

don't know how broad I can go but

4:25

these are I think the key times is

4:28

the West's insecurity about its

4:31

own values, norms,

4:33

institutions, its own legacy. So why do you

4:35

think that the West has lost its way? There are a

4:37

lot of people who posit that it's a loss of religious

4:39

faith, there are a lot of people who posit that in

4:42

the aftermath of the Vietnam War the West basically has

4:44

no confidence in its own ability to shape the world.

4:46

Where do you place the blame for the West having

4:48

lost its confidence? It's both

4:50

but I think that the the

4:52

loss of faith and

4:55

the loss of faith in

4:57

the Christian God in its

4:59

own Judeo-Christian traditions. I

5:02

think that is a very very

5:04

important point that was neglected and maybe

5:06

so neglects to the point where we

5:08

literally are on the brink of losing

5:10

everything. I woke up

5:12

to this not so long ago

5:14

and I remember a few years

5:17

ago saying oh no religion

5:19

just like Christopher Hitchens you know

5:21

most religions are the same they

5:24

are a source of nationality and a

5:26

source of oppression and subjugation

5:28

and so on and

5:31

that was a mistake. I admit

5:33

to my own stupidity and

5:35

in this case I just want to to

5:38

invite everyone to do

5:41

a rethink and to see where

5:43

the values that are grounded in

5:45

yes antiquity the Greeks what we

5:47

inherited from the Romans but

5:50

through the Christian period to what we have

5:53

now and what we stand to lose and

5:55

I don't think we've had enough

5:57

conversations about where that

5:59

is. got us and

6:02

how we've neglected those institutions,

6:05

those ideas, and

6:07

how we've allowed a walking

6:10

of those ideas, especially the idea,

6:12

the concept of justice, to

6:15

be used as a weapon to destroy

6:17

everything that the West stands for. And

6:19

to invite us into what? That's always

6:21

the question, is so you want justice

6:23

in the name of Islam, what exactly

6:25

does that look like? Does it look

6:28

like today's Iran? Does it look like

6:30

Saudi Arabia? Does it look like Nigeria?

6:32

Does it look

6:34

like Afghanistan? What exactly does it

6:36

look like to live in the

6:38

Islamic State? We've got to ask

6:40

that question and boldly make the

6:42

comparison between these two different societies

6:45

and the values that underpin these societies.

6:48

And I think the majority of

6:50

humanity knows exactly what they

6:52

would choose. We'd have to do the

6:54

same with the Chinese Communist Party and the same

6:56

with Russia's authoritarianism and

6:58

any other idea that comes along

7:00

masquerading as the answer for all

7:02

things. Yeah, Iyan, this is one

7:05

of the things that makes your story so fascinating,

7:07

is that again, to get back to where I

7:09

started, the West is really blind to the fact

7:11

that not everybody thinks like Westerners. And so you

7:13

see this in the media coverage of various conflicts

7:15

around the world. Most obvious recently is

7:17

the case of Israel where the assumption is that

7:19

Hamas must be some sort of rational actor, Iran

7:21

must be a rational actor. They love their kids

7:24

too, and they just want the same sorts of

7:26

things that the Israelis want. So why do they

7:28

have to have this cycle of violence? And if

7:30

we just put enough pressure as the West on

7:32

the Israelis to make concessions, eventually there will be

7:34

a Palestinian state and that will solve all of

7:36

the problems and everybody will just live happily ever

7:38

after together. But you obviously grew up in the

7:41

Islamic world. And so you know something that Westerners

7:43

don't, which is that people don't think the same

7:45

way all across the world. They think very differently.

7:47

What was it like growing up in the Islamic world? They're

7:50

rational, and it's a different rationale. And

7:52

it's, you know, you sing to a

7:54

different tune. So growing up as a

7:56

Muslim, what it boils down

7:58

to be a Muslim. is to submit

8:00

to the will of Allah. And

8:03

what that entails that's documented in

8:05

scripture, it is the Holy Quran,

8:08

it's the hadith, the legacy that's left

8:10

by the Prophet Muhammad, and it's the

8:12

seerah, it's the biography of the Prophet

8:14

Muhammad. And if you take that together

8:16

along with 1400 years of

8:18

culture and civilization, what you get

8:21

is the Muslim majority countries that

8:23

we have. And it

8:25

is an

8:28

idea of a hierarchy where of

8:30

course you submit to Allah, but

8:32

who represents Allah, who represents God on

8:34

earth. So it's

8:37

the ruler, and you have to

8:39

agree with to authoritarian rule

8:41

without question because you know the

8:43

Supreme Ayatollah says that he speaks

8:45

for Allah, in other words he

8:47

puts himself on Allah's throne. And

8:50

then the

8:52

wife obeys the husband

8:54

without question. It's

8:57

just different forms of

8:59

subjugation and as a child

9:02

I wasn't allowed to ask questions. There's no

9:04

freedom of conscience, there's no freedom of speech.

9:07

When the Muslim brotherhood as a teenager, when they

9:09

came to our neighborhoods, I think of

9:12

that as a classic exercise

9:15

in subversion because we

9:17

identified as Muslims, all of us, my friends, my neighbors, all

9:22

of us who are Muslim, we identified as Muslims.

9:24

But they brought a different flavor of Islam, where

9:27

they said the way you practice your faith

9:29

is all wrong. They came steeped in radicalization

9:33

from Saudi Arabia and from Egypt, the Muslim brothers,

9:35

some of them also came from Iran.

9:39

And from one day to the next we were taught instead

9:43

of just believing we had to practice

9:45

and to practice meant to do things,

9:47

not just to say things. And

9:49

one of the key components was

9:52

to hate the unbeliever, invite the

9:54

unbeliever to Islam and if they

9:56

refuse, they reject that invitation, the

9:58

call to death. then they

10:01

are your enemy. So the concept of

10:03

enemy was explained to us. And

10:06

take it one level further, anti-Semitism,

10:08

what we call anti- I'd never had anti-Semitism

10:10

before, but it was the

10:13

hatred of the Jew, because the Jew was

10:15

the corrupt of the land, corrupt of the

10:17

word of God, the Jew was evil. And

10:20

so before I had even met any

10:23

Jewish person or

10:25

knew of the existence of Jewish people as human

10:27

beings, I was programmed

10:29

to think of Jews as

10:31

monsters, as a synonym for the

10:34

devil. I've got a little anecdote

10:36

here where, you know,

10:39

just to tell you like how far reaching it was,

10:42

when as children you curse, I

10:45

think in the Western world you use the

10:47

F word, you use the S word, that

10:50

was discouraged, it was bad manners. So what

10:52

was the right way to say it was

10:57

to say that the it

11:02

was that very cheap, but it becomes really

11:04

a part of you. And so when

11:08

I look at what's going on

11:10

today, this explosion of what looks

11:12

like certain anti-Semitism, it's not

11:14

so thin. It's decades

11:16

of indoctrination using the mosque,

11:19

using the madrasa, using

11:21

the neighborhood, and as technology advanced, I

11:23

remember the days these things were spread

11:25

with the cassettes tape, do you remember

11:27

those cassettes tapes? And

11:29

now we have AI. So

11:32

every new technology is

11:35

used by the Islamists to

11:37

advance the utopia that's

11:39

going to take us back to

11:41

the seventh century. And on

11:44

the way to that utopia, we are

11:46

to be dedicated to destroying the

11:48

state of Israel, the idea of

11:50

Zionism, and Jews in general. And

11:53

it is, to me, it's so important

11:55

that every Muslim who grew up like

11:57

I did, and who has

11:59

emancipated themselves from this doctrine

12:02

of hatred should come

12:04

forward today and speak

12:07

about it and be honest about

12:09

it and decry it

12:11

and come forward and defend the state of Israel.

12:14

So you were in the

12:16

Islamic world obviously you then escaped to Europe

12:18

and you talk about this in

12:20

your book so I want you to explain to

12:22

folks who may not know your story how that

12:24

happened and you move toward atheism because of course

12:26

if you grow up in a deeply repressive

12:29

and subjugation oriented culture you are going to

12:31

move away from religion you see this in

12:34

all religions but particularly with

12:37

an upbringing like yours and you

12:39

didn't find what you were looking for in atheism but

12:41

that's getting ahead of the story so how exactly did

12:43

you get to Europe and what was your experience as

12:45

an open atheist in

12:47

the west and why did you eventually end up

12:49

finding that insufficient? So

12:53

I came to Europe in 1992 I came

12:55

to Europe because again according

12:57

to the Islamic tradition within which I

12:59

was growing up my father had decided

13:01

who I was going to marry that

13:04

is perfectly common in our society it's

13:06

nothing strange there except I didn't agree

13:08

with it and I saw an

13:10

opportunity instead of I was sent to

13:12

Germany to work on the immigration papers with

13:14

a relative of mine to send me to

13:17

Canada and so in 1992 July

13:19

instead of leaving Germany to go

13:22

to Canada I went to

13:24

the Netherlands and asked for asylum because a lot of

13:26

Somalis were doing them and

13:29

within six weeks the

13:31

Dutch government granted me what

13:33

they call an A status or a refugee

13:35

status and it is in the

13:38

years in the Netherlands that I was really able to

13:40

compare you know those

13:42

first 22 years of my life

13:45

and a society that I had come into and

13:47

that for me was the access point into western

13:50

civilization at large and

13:52

it's a society the first thing that struck

13:54

me was women

13:58

and their status women

14:00

were treated exactly like men. In some cases,

14:02

they were even stronger. They were the bosses

14:05

all the time. They

14:07

dressed as they pleased. There

14:09

was no specific space that said, this is

14:11

just for men, and that's just for women.

14:14

Specific jobs just for women, others for men.

14:17

It was, everybody was doing

14:19

their work, and I thought, this

14:22

is mind-boggling, how these women are

14:25

assaulted and harassed and bullied and driven

14:28

out of the public space. And they looked

14:30

at me as if I was a bad

14:32

person. And

14:35

so in conversations with the local people,

14:38

I just wanted to know more and more, and

14:41

I decided I was going to study political science,

14:44

and I majored in political

14:46

theory. I was much more

14:48

interested in the underlying philosophy. And

14:52

it was then, I was actually really optimistic

14:54

because at that time, the Cold War was

14:56

over, lots and lots

14:58

of refugees like me, immigrants, asylum

15:02

seekers, whatever label you want to pin on them. It's just

15:04

people who didn't like their societies and who are coming here.

15:07

I thought they would be just

15:09

as wild for Western society

15:11

as I was. And that

15:13

Westerners who were very generous with

15:15

their welfare states, they were showering

15:18

us with money, giving us shelter,

15:20

medical care, all these material things.

15:22

I thought, I still think that

15:25

Westerners would say, you know how you get

15:27

all these material things and all this prosperity

15:29

and all these things? Here,

15:31

the norms, the values, the

15:34

structures, copy it from us.

15:37

And yeah, that can happen. That's

15:39

not happening. But

15:41

yeah, that's my experience. So

15:44

you moved into philosophically away

15:47

from religion and toward atheism. As you mentioned, you sort

15:49

of took the Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins view of

15:52

religion, which is that all religion is

15:54

irrational. All religion is a separation of

15:57

human beings from their own reasoning faculty.

16:00

And can lead you down dark roads, which

16:02

of course any religion taken to an extreme

16:04

certainly can. But one of the things that

16:06

has been true of the West, as you

16:08

mentioned up front, is that the West is

16:10

living on the fumes of a Christian culture,

16:13

of a biblical culture. And Will

16:15

Heberg, philosopher in the 1960s,

16:17

he coined the term cut flower civilization. He suggested that

16:19

we're living in a cut flower civilization. Basically, we've got

16:21

a vase, the flowers are in the vase. They appear

16:24

to be blooming, but they have no roots anymore. And

16:26

so they can live on for a little while in

16:28

the water, but eventually they're going to die. And they're

16:30

going to die sooner rather than later because when you

16:32

disconnect a culture from its roots, a civilization from its

16:35

roots, it ceases to be able to draw on those

16:37

roots. It's no longer able to

16:39

draw the nutrients from the soil. And

16:42

so when you have an atheistic West that

16:44

has disconnected from its own roots, it's actually

16:46

destroying the source of its own strength. And

16:48

there is no strength to go up against

16:51

other very rooted civilizations. The civilizations may

16:53

be wrong. The civilizations may have terrible

16:55

ideas, but if they're rooted, they have

16:57

an innate strength and durability that a

16:59

cut flower civilization does not. Yeah,

17:02

and to which I said to us,

17:05

Mr. Oz, that we

17:08

have seed packets. We

17:10

are – the civilization may have

17:12

lost its roots, or the

17:15

roots have gone dormant. We have seed

17:17

packets that we can spread. No, I

17:19

mean, I agree with you. For me,

17:21

9-11-2001 was the big shock. Like, it

17:23

was too many people. And

17:26

before 9-11, the first 10 years, between

17:28

1992 and 2001, I

17:30

was able to assimilate into

17:32

Dutch society, learn the language,

17:34

go to university. I

17:36

lived together, a long-time relationship together with

17:39

my boyfriend. I mean, I lived and

17:41

behaved and acted and earned,

17:44

like, an average Dutch

17:46

woman. And

17:48

then 9-11 happened. And

17:52

I understood 9-11 to be exactly what

17:54

those who perpetrated it said. They

17:56

said they did it out of religious conviction. And

17:59

then I said, to have these controversial

18:02

conversations with Westerners, many of

18:04

them, Ateez, who are saying, no, no, no,

18:06

religious, that's nonsense. They

18:09

did what they did because of

18:11

American foreign policy, because of economic

18:13

disparities, because of Israel and the

18:16

way Israel is treating the Palestinian. I didn't

18:18

buy any of those things. But

18:20

in having those conversations, I was forced

18:23

then to look at myself in the

18:25

mirror and ask myself, do I believe

18:27

in God? I really

18:29

want to follow in the footsteps of the

18:32

Prophet Muhammad. And

18:34

that was something, it was a dissonance I couldn't live

18:37

with. And so it was

18:39

either run or keep running away from it

18:41

or confront it. And in my confrontation, I

18:46

concluded that there

18:48

is no life after death, there is no God. And

18:51

the philosophical position

18:54

of atheism, there

18:56

is no evidence of any of this, unless

18:59

you can see it and

19:02

either falsified or verified

19:04

that that's attitude. That

19:09

would be the right attitude to adopt.

19:12

And it worked for me for a

19:14

while, until it didn't. And

19:17

but I think I failed to

19:19

grasp that as a human being,

19:23

you need more than just material

19:26

comfort. Just

19:28

like we have needs, you know, an

19:30

intellectual need to answer questions like, you

19:33

know, we're driven by curiosity. I think

19:35

we also do have

19:37

spiritual needs. And

19:39

those needs may be more

19:41

serious and much deeper than

19:44

many of the other needs. And

19:46

that's my personal conclusion. And in this

19:48

case, I'm still, you know,

19:51

my faith and my chosen faith. And

19:54

I decided I want to become a Christian. That

19:56

is something I'm still exploring, reading

19:58

the Bible. and talking to

20:01

theologians with whom I can read the

20:04

Bible and actually ask these questions. But

20:06

the more the deeper I dig into

20:08

this, the more I think

20:11

if a society is not rooted

20:15

in faith and doesn't

20:18

have that conviction,

20:20

it is going to become a

20:22

cut flower. Society is going

20:24

to become a cut flower civilization

20:28

because you create a

20:30

vacuum, which is exactly what we've done

20:32

in the West in the last few decades. And

20:35

the spiritual vacuum that

20:38

emerges is going to be filled

20:40

in by other forces. And

20:43

there are forces that from the

20:45

get go are saying, you know, we

20:47

want to destroy you. They just didn't

20:49

have the military might to do it. And

20:53

you make it easier for them actually to

20:55

come in through suppression. That is, you

20:57

know, my set set, press duration.

20:59

It's the reason why I call it press duration.

21:02

It's very clear now that we've been subverted

21:05

and that that strategy

21:07

is applied because right now

21:09

there is no other society

21:11

that is militarily or economically

21:13

more powerful than we are.

21:16

So what you're seeing is

21:18

alternative ways of weakening and

21:20

subtracting us. And it

21:23

starts with the observation that the

21:25

West has abandoned our

21:27

Judeo-Christian foundational principles to become

21:30

a cut flower society. We're

21:33

saying we're lamenting it. We are broadcasting it

21:35

to the world. And so the world

21:37

is obviously taking advantage of it. We'll

21:39

get to more on this in just a moment.

21:41

First, can your savings weather another economic storm? Think

21:43

about what you've put away for the future. Inflation

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22:57

of the things I think that's been

22:59

disturbing over the past multiple years, obviously,

23:01

but really coming to a head over

23:04

the past year, has been the obvious

23:06

unity between the far left and radical

23:08

Islam. There had been

23:10

these signs for decades that this alliance

23:12

was going to eventually consummate itself. But

23:15

you've seen really since October 7th that

23:17

this alliance is quite open. You see

23:20

signs for, for example, queers for Palestine, which

23:22

is inherently contradictory and insane.

23:25

There are zero queers in Palestine, and if

23:27

there were, they would be immediately killed. But

23:29

the basic orientation is against exactly the culture

23:31

that you're talking about. So on the one

23:33

hand, you have a civilization that won't defend

23:35

itself, and on the other hand, you

23:38

have people within that civilization who do

23:40

understand that disconnecting the civilization

23:42

from its roots is the

23:44

only way that they can build something atop the scrap

23:46

heap, that they actually need to unify. So

23:49

the commonality between the far left

23:51

and radical Islamists is their desire to

23:53

tear down the civilization. that

24:00

doesn't want to defend itself, but is really

24:02

using very extensive tools,

24:05

military tools, surveillance tools

24:09

that are very difficult to

24:11

sustain, but also that create

24:13

a backlash over and over

24:15

again. Whereas the others

24:17

are using tactics and strategies

24:19

that are

24:22

long term, it's a

24:24

commitment of many decades and that

24:26

is to brainwash a

24:28

generation at least. And

24:31

I think in this case, we see

24:33

the disconnection between Gen

24:36

Z, the young generation

24:38

that grew up with many of

24:40

whom, as the most of whom maybe didn't

24:43

grow up with faith

24:46

and don't really know what

24:49

their roots are because they want to, it's

24:52

not just faith, but also they want to

24:54

start history properly. And

24:57

they've also been guilt tripped, they've been

24:59

left to the wolves who

25:01

pick on their minds and capture their

25:04

minds, their hearts, their souls. And

25:07

that method of fighting is

25:09

proven to be much more effective than

25:11

the use of military tools

25:14

alone. So

25:17

I think it's

25:19

now time that we found

25:21

the alarm and

25:24

that we open these seed packets and

25:26

we start, yeah,

25:29

we start banding together those of us

25:31

who remember what

25:34

it was like. And

25:37

those of us who really understand what

25:39

the differences are, those of us who

25:42

understand what's at stake, we're about

25:44

to lose. I think we

25:46

should band together and fight this

25:48

thing. And it's a long time commitment

25:51

to go back and restore

25:53

the ideas, restore the

25:55

faith, restore the institutions that

25:58

are broken or that are breaking. So

26:00

you mentioned three foreign challenges on the horizon

26:03

for the West. Russia, China, and

26:05

Iran. I'm going to go through those sort

26:07

of in order and ask how you would

26:09

deal with those. So obviously Russia

26:11

is an aggressive foreign

26:14

power. Vladimir Putin is an authoritarian. There's

26:16

been an attempt on some parts of the weird

26:18

right and some parts of the left to recast. Vladimir

26:20

Putin is on the right a sort of liberator of

26:22

Christians, which is a strange take, and

26:24

on the left to treat him as though

26:27

he's sort of the natural consequence of aggressive

26:29

American foreign policy with regard to NATO. How

26:31

should the West be treating Vladimir Putin? What should

26:34

be the strategy the West uses

26:36

to approach Putin, particularly in Ukraine where the

26:38

conflict is ongoing? I'll

26:41

take the specific question

26:43

of Ukraine. I'll

26:50

take you back to what do you do

26:52

when you're confronted with an aggressor? And

26:55

in the West, you

26:57

have those voices, and usually

27:00

they come across as the reasonable

27:02

ones it is to

27:04

appease the aggressor in order to

27:06

avoid escalation. And

27:09

on the other side is, confront

27:11

the aggressor, stop him.

27:14

And in the short term, you're

27:16

going to have a disruption, but that will

27:18

buy you peace in the long term. So

27:21

either counter offensive

27:24

or this trajectory of appeasement.

27:27

Unfortunately, the Biden

27:29

administration appeased

27:32

Vladimir Putin early on. And

27:35

so now if we find ourselves in

27:37

this muddied water, where should

27:40

we go all in now and stop him?

27:44

I don't want the president, I'm

27:46

not the president of the United States, but if

27:49

I did, I would rally

27:51

the world, those who are

27:53

truly our allies, to stop

27:55

Vladimir Putin, give back

27:57

the territories that he has taken, and only

27:59

the world. then will peace prevail? Having

28:05

said all of this, this is I'm

28:07

Chair, a general. I'm just telling

28:09

you on a philosophical level, I

28:11

think the more you appease an aggressor,

28:14

we've seen this with Hitler, anyway

28:17

in all of the smaller wars that you see

28:19

in the third world, appease an

28:21

aggressor means embolden

28:23

an aggressor. Trace

28:26

an aggressor with bold strength,

28:28

they back away. It's

28:30

the same for Iran. Iran right

28:32

now, we have only bad options

28:34

on the table. And again,

28:37

the history that America alone has

28:40

with Iran is

28:42

one if you go back as President Carter's

28:44

time to now, with

28:47

every provocation, what do we do? We

28:51

appease, we tell ourselves, contain

28:54

it, let's not escalate, it's

28:56

doable. And what has Iran

28:59

done? It's only emboldened and

29:01

emboldened, has taken territory well.

29:05

Proxies, established its proxies that

29:07

basically take control of in

29:10

Iraq, Lebanon, in

29:12

Yemen, the whole of the Middle

29:15

East is destabilized and it will

29:17

remain destabilized. Iran is

29:19

an oppressor at home and aggressor

29:21

abroad and it has maintained that

29:24

sense because we allowed it. Because

29:26

we have applied the appeasement philosophy,

29:29

it's a discipline because we keep doing

29:31

it, it's not a philosophy anymore, it's

29:34

an appeasement theology. We've

29:37

got to stop with that. And I

29:39

think that sends the message to China too,

29:41

don't mess with us. With

29:45

all three groups, with all three of these

29:50

different aggressors,

29:53

militarily, economically, we've got to be

29:55

very forceful and very firm. And

29:58

then we have to recommit

30:00

from the long term to

30:04

restoring ideas of

30:07

faith, the faith in our

30:09

own foundational principles. So

30:12

let's talk about how we do that in the West, because

30:14

one of the biggest problems obviously is that

30:16

the vast majority of major institutions in the

30:19

West have been taken over

30:21

by people who fundamentally do not like

30:23

Christian values or Judeo-Christian values. If you

30:25

look at the university system, they've been

30:27

completely lost. You'll have an occasional university

30:29

that is not that way, but you

30:31

can literally name them on one hand.

30:34

It's like the University of Austin, Hillsdale

30:36

College, Liberty University, maybe some aspects of

30:38

the University of Florida. That's kind of

30:40

it. The rest of the university systems

30:42

have been taken over en masse by

30:44

the left, and a left which really dislikes religion and

30:47

sees religion as the root of all evil the same

30:49

way that Marx saw religion as the root of all

30:51

evil. When you look at social media, social media has

30:54

been designed to suppress messages that are heterodox

30:56

with regard to morality. You must say the

30:58

words, and if you don't say the words,

31:00

then you'll be cast into the outer darkness.

31:03

One of the big questions I

31:05

think for people who are of traditionalist

31:07

bent on these matters

31:10

is whether to engage, how much to engage,

31:12

where to engage, or whether to

31:14

sort of withdraw and build alternatives. And that's

31:16

sort of an open conversation on each of

31:19

these institutions. What do you think is the

31:21

sort of tipping point as far as where

31:23

you sign off and take the Roger Benedict option and

31:25

say, okay, we're just going to build our own thing

31:27

over here, and we're going to let you wither

31:30

on the vine? And where is it worth fighting? I'll

31:32

say both. Build

31:36

new institutions. If you

31:38

can afford it, my husband is involved with

31:40

John Lonsdale in trying to do

31:42

this in UATX. I think it's

31:45

a fantastic idea if there's a new institution

31:47

that actually succeeds as a university in doing

31:49

what a university is supposed to do. That

31:52

creates the opportunity, and it shows that,

31:54

you know, lots of students and faculty

31:57

and even to a degree some other way.

32:00

administrators don't want to

32:02

stay with the front-end faculties, they'll move to

32:04

the new thing. And it maybe will encourage

32:06

the building of even more institutions.

32:09

I also believe in trying

32:12

to recapture

32:15

some of the institutions that we stand

32:17

to lose. It's like a

32:19

cancer. If it's stage four, the institution

32:21

is literally dying, like the one in

32:23

Oregon where I've seen left. I

32:26

think that institution is just gone. Let it kill

32:28

itself. But a few of the others, especially

32:31

some of the Ivy League, I think it's

32:33

worth having a fight. And that is, again,

32:35

I want to go back to why I

32:37

started this restoration. Substack is

32:40

many of us have been

32:42

identifying the problem. We've

32:45

diagnosed the problem. I

32:48

would say it's not

32:50

a perfect diagnosis, but

32:53

between all of us who see the problem that

32:56

we've been calling locus into this

32:58

resurgence of communism and

33:01

socialist ideas, we now know

33:03

exactly who these people are,

33:05

what their objectives are, and how they work.

33:07

And so now it is let's get together

33:09

and start restoring

33:13

these institutions. Bill

33:15

Ackman confronted Harvard

33:17

as his alma. And

33:22

that's an example to some of the people

33:25

who really have the resources to make that

33:27

kind of change to come together and

33:31

say, this is not how I want my money to be spent.

33:33

But also, this is not the direction that

33:35

I want this institution to go in. This is

33:37

not the direction that I want my country to

33:39

go in. I think it's now

33:42

the time for the grownups to come in.

33:44

And we stop fighting each other and

33:46

fight our common enemies. One

33:49

of the other things that obviously we've seen on

33:51

a societal level in the United States is as

33:53

religion has declined, people have filled that hole in

33:55

their hearts with really partisan politics.

33:57

And the politics very often are not

34:00

not even about principles. What we're talking about

34:02

here are broader philosophical principles, things worth fighting

34:04

for. It seems like people are just getting

34:06

joy out of the fight right now on a lot of

34:08

sides. They're having a lot of fun punching

34:10

each other on Twitter. And when I say fun, I really

34:12

don't mean that. I think that most people are miserable on

34:15

places like X or Twitter spending all day punching

34:17

one another, but it fills some sort of void

34:19

temporarily with an endorphin rush. If you get off

34:21

a good line, it

34:23

seems to me that the only way to cure

34:25

that is really in some ways to stop using

34:27

a lot of the tools that are out there

34:29

entirely. So obviously, I'm an Orthodox Jew. That means

34:31

that from Friday night to Saturday night, there is

34:33

no electronics. I mean, we're just not on electronic

34:35

devices. There's no phone. There's no computer. I

34:38

think that there may not be a substitute in

34:40

the human heart for church, not just because

34:42

of the religion that provided, but also because

34:44

of the actual get out, touch grass, meet

34:46

other human beings aspect of

34:49

human relations. And that

34:52

needs to be recreated by the right

34:54

and the right has neglected to do that in a pretty

34:56

significant way. I

34:58

agree with you on everything you've said just

35:00

now. And I think part of this futile

35:04

punching at one another, it

35:07

is denial. And it is a

35:09

denial of these bigger challenges

35:12

that we face and maybe the fear that

35:14

we have of how can we deal with

35:16

this? We don't want to go to war.

35:19

We don't want to, you know, the

35:22

other day I was talking about why are people,

35:26

people's attitude towards Donald Trump. You

35:30

can be a rational person and say, you

35:32

know, there are things about Donald Trump that

35:34

I don't like. There are things about Donald

35:36

Trump and his policies that I do like.

35:38

But why can't we have a rational conversation

35:41

about the next election and

35:43

then have that transition

35:45

of power peacefully? No,

35:48

my Democrat friends say never. No, he

35:50

is not getting under no circumstances

35:52

are we going to admit this. It's

35:56

irrational. It's crazy. If you say things like that, you're

35:58

going to be a rational person. talking about

36:01

using tools of state to

36:04

frustrate an upcoming election. But

36:06

the real question is, why are they doing

36:08

that? And it is

36:10

a denial of these bigger

36:12

problems about war

36:14

and about having

36:18

let down large

36:21

segments of the population.

36:23

What are we going to do about middle

36:25

classes with challenges

36:27

like immigration and automation? These

36:30

are bigger, more challenging

36:33

problems. So it's easier to go to Twitter

36:36

and start quibbling about small things or

36:38

saying we'll never have him again. On

36:41

the side of the right, I

36:43

see people constantly

36:46

quibbling about inventing

36:48

conspiracy theories. I understand that some of these

36:50

things may look conspiratorial.

36:54

And to a certain degree, there are

36:56

conspiracies. I mean, there's all sorts of

36:58

disinformation strategies that China

37:00

and Russia are applying, and so is

37:02

Iran. But I think don't

37:05

allow yourself to be carried away. Don't

37:07

allow yourself to waste

37:10

your time having these fights that you

37:12

think are fun because of the adrenaline

37:14

that you were describing. Let's

37:17

say the real

37:19

fights that we have. I say to

37:21

some of my Jewish friends, even stop

37:23

fighting amongst yourselves. I don't care if

37:25

you hate Bibi Netanyahu, if you love

37:27

Bibi Netanyahu, now you have this big

37:29

enemy against you. Let's fight that. Let's

37:31

tell the story of Israel, which

37:34

is a beautiful story. It's a

37:36

story with insistence on life. The

37:39

enemy of Israel says we

37:41

celebrate death. Let's

37:44

fight, first of all, the enemy

37:46

that celebrates death. And

37:48

when we have time to breathe and we

37:50

can, you know, we think

37:52

we're in peace, then let's go

37:55

and hate Bibi Netanyahu. That's fine. Right

37:58

now, let's prioritize. And it's this. The same

38:00

with the other things. I mean, China is

38:02

on the verge of, is

38:04

constantly threatening to attack Taiwan. All

38:07

of these countries have infiltrated our

38:10

institutions. If you look

38:12

at the presence of radical Islam, how

38:14

it has deepened and broadened within Europe,

38:17

we stand to lose Europe. If

38:19

they're playing the time game, to

38:24

one or two generations from today, Europe

38:28

isn't Europe anymore. And

38:30

these are some of the most serious things

38:33

that we have to think, and I think people are

38:36

just in denial about it, and they're

38:38

projecting each other's problems on one another. And

38:40

that's a pity, and that's also a symptom

38:42

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stamps.com/Shapiro. And one

39:40

of the things that you're talking about here, that reactionary cycle

39:42

that you talk about from the left and the right, it

39:44

is a self-fulfilling prophecy. So what

39:46

you have is a left that will say that

39:48

Donald Trump is such a threat to the Republic

39:51

that he must be stopped by any means. And

39:53

any means means literally any means. It means that

39:55

you can use every legal and illegal

39:57

method at your disposal in order to drag him into

39:59

court. you can get rid

40:01

of voter laws or change the voter laws because

40:03

whatever has to be done to stop Orange Hitler

40:06

or has to be done to stop Orange Hitler.

40:08

And the right responds to that by immediately saying,

40:10

okay, well, everything is a conspiracy because

40:12

some of it is a conspiracy. You're literally out

40:14

there in the open saying that you're going to

40:16

conspiratorially stop Donald Trump. And so the right reacts

40:19

by saying, okay, everything I see is now a

40:21

conspiracy. And to stop a conspiracy

40:23

requires us to use any means at our disposal

40:25

in order to stop the conspiracy. To which the

40:27

left says, well, if you're willing to use any

40:29

means, then you're really the bad guy. And so

40:31

we can actually orient ourselves towards stopping you. And

40:33

so what you end up with is the end

40:35

of any sort of rational discourse. It turns out

40:37

that one of the best ways to bring about

40:40

a true societal breakdown is by projecting a true

40:42

societal breakdown. And the most important thing

40:44

for everybody to say at this point is actually this

40:46

election is not going to be the last election. There

40:48

will be another election after that, believe it or not.

40:51

And yes, if the opposing party wins, that

40:53

will in fact be terrible. And I will

40:55

in fact hate it. Like I support Donald

40:57

Trump. I've contributed money to Donald Trump. If

41:01

Donald Trump loses, will there be another election in

41:03

the United States? Yes, of course there will be

41:05

another election in the United States. Will Joe Biden

41:07

do a bunch of stuff that I hate and

41:09

despise and think makes the country worse? Absolutely. But

41:11

the whole point of having a democratic republic is

41:14

that you can then take measures to militate

41:16

against that. You can then win the

41:18

next election. You can respond to that.

41:20

But as we move away from the

41:22

idea that there are any rules

41:24

whatsoever. It used to be that when

41:27

it came to politics, yes, it was a chess game, but when

41:29

you play chess, there are rules. And now

41:31

it's both sides threatening that if they lose, they're gonna

41:33

overturn the table. And if the idea

41:35

is that you overturn the table, there will be no

41:37

more chess. Well, then you're playing a completely different game

41:39

and things get very ugly very quickly. And

41:41

it takes also that opportunity

41:43

to step back because at

41:45

some point, sometimes I feel like,

41:48

okay, I agree with someone on the left side, I

41:50

agree with someone on the right side, but there's something

41:52

that's going on that makes it extremely difficult for us

41:54

to be rational about

41:56

how we address these problems. in

42:00

the search for why is our society behaving

42:02

this way? Obviously, I was listening to people

42:04

who were saying, part

42:06

of it is breaking down of faith

42:08

and of norms and of values, and

42:11

that is true. And

42:13

then partly, I also saw this. During

42:18

the Soviet era, there

42:21

was that strategy that's very well

42:23

described by Yuri Bezmanov, who was

42:25

someone who defected from the KGB

42:28

in the 1970s. And

42:30

he gives this lecture about how

42:33

the Soviet Union actually went to

42:35

work about subverting society. And he

42:37

says, it isn't that you see

42:39

the James Bond style, breaking

42:42

of bridges, and things like that. All of that

42:44

may or may not happen. But

42:46

there is one that is much more boring,

42:49

more long-time, but much

42:51

more consequential. And that is this infecting

42:54

of society

42:57

with these ideas, getting

43:01

to the institutions, and

43:03

actually, consciously create a

43:05

situation where members of

43:07

the society that you want to support don't

43:10

talk to one another. They distrust one

43:12

another. They're so hostile to one another.

43:15

That is exactly what

43:17

you're describing, between those who support Trump and

43:19

those who support Biden and those who support this and those

43:21

who support that, in our society right now,

43:23

what he was describing in the 70s is

43:26

materializing today. So the

43:28

big question, to avoid getting into conspiracy

43:30

theories, the big question is, why

43:34

are those seeds that were planted in the 70s?

43:37

Are they materializing now? Or

43:39

is there some other force behind

43:42

this? What is going on? These

43:45

are the questions we need to answer. And

43:47

I think we should stop fighting one

43:49

another. Once you see this mirror, people

43:53

want us to fight. These

43:55

bad forces want us to fight. If

43:58

you're an Islamist, or if you're a, you know, a

44:00

member of the CCP party or if you're

44:02

Putin, you would love it

44:04

if the West destroyed itself. You would love

44:06

it if their children all of a sudden

44:09

all decided that they wanted to change their

44:11

sex and their gender. You

44:13

would love it if they all danged up on the

44:15

state of Israel. This

44:18

is just to show you, look, we don't have to

44:20

do anything. We just have to stand back and watch

44:23

them destroy each other. And I think in

44:25

that sense, given the number of enemies we

44:27

have, how formidable they are, how effective they

44:30

are, and where we are, it's

44:32

time really to sober up and stop fighting

44:34

each other. I love my Democrat

44:36

friends and I love my Republican friends. And

44:38

it's time that we stop. Yeah,

44:41

we are each other's friends. You

44:43

know what Jonathan Haidt has been writing about recently

44:45

and what he says that society really full scale

44:48

started to break down about the time of the

44:50

iPhone that as soon as you had that technology

44:52

in your hand and you could constantly be updating

44:55

the news and not just updating the news

44:57

but updating yourself and what other people thought

44:59

of you. You created this perverse feedback loop

45:01

where particularly for teenage girls, but it's true for everybody,

45:03

I think, that if you check your notifications on X,

45:06

it's legitimately one of the worst things that you can

45:08

do just as a human being because all human beings

45:10

are built to be ego machines. We're all built to

45:12

worry about what other people think of us because when

45:14

we were in the jungle, it really mattered a lot

45:17

what other people thought of you. If they thought poorly

45:19

of you, then you starved. So we're all built to

45:21

care about what people around us think. And so when

45:23

you have a machine that's built to spec that

45:26

is designed to give you what other people

45:28

think of you, even if those other people

45:30

are bots in some other country, or even

45:32

if that is a gined up opposition to

45:34

you, you're going to respond to that echo

45:36

chamber simply because it is the source of

45:38

information that is at your disposal. And so

45:40

if you get cheered for changing your gender

45:43

by a bunch of randos on TikTok, then you

45:45

are in fact as a human being going to

45:47

respond to that when that technology becomes so widespread,

45:49

so available, so immediate. And every

45:51

time you refresh, you get an endorphin

45:54

rush before the crushing morosity that hits

45:56

the moment that you realize everybody hates

45:58

you. That is a way to make an entire civil mentalization

46:01

mentally ill. And it seems

46:03

to me that, again,

46:05

the best thing that most people can do just

46:07

as individuals, put aside the politics, the best thing

46:09

most individuals can do is get off your phone.

46:11

Just get off your phone for five seconds a

46:13

day and actually spend some time with other human

46:15

beings. When you say you have Democrat friends, you

46:17

have Republican friends, that's true in real

46:20

life. It's not true online. It really is not true

46:22

online. I've found myself that I have friends who

46:24

are on the other side of the aisle, and I

46:26

know them. I say hello to them, and none of them

46:28

will ever say happy birthday to me on Twitter. Because the

46:30

minute they say happy birthday to me on Twitter, I would

46:32

acknowledge that I'm born of women, and then they would be

46:34

hit with a wave of hatred, a wave of disdain from

46:36

their own side of the political aisle. So they'll give me

46:38

a call or they'll text me, but the minute they do

46:41

that in public, it's a real problem. Now, we could be

46:43

walking out – we could have dinner together in

46:45

Miami where everybody disagrees about politics, and it

46:47

would be totally fine. The

46:50

performance of the aspect comes in, and it destroys everything.

46:52

So I really wonder if maybe the solution to this

46:54

is just to disconnect a lot. I

46:56

think you have a point there, but I

46:58

also am very, very cautious of blaming technology.

47:02

Technology has given us, yes, an

47:04

amplification of bad ideas and the

47:06

animosities and inflation of the ego

47:08

and all of the societal ills

47:10

that were already there. They

47:13

may have found, yes, an amplification in these

47:15

bad things, but technology has also given us so

47:18

many other wonderful things. So

47:20

let's get off the phone

47:22

for five seconds, approach, and

47:24

then go back to the

47:27

quality, the things that give

47:29

quality to human life – our faith,

47:31

our family, our vocation, our community. That

47:34

is, I think, where we need to

47:37

head. And was

47:39

it Jonathan Hyde that you cited just now? I

47:42

think, interestingly, he found when he was

47:45

looking at suicide ideation – I

47:47

could be wrong, I've got to look that up – but

47:51

he was speaking at AHRQ in

47:53

London, and he

47:56

got to a point where he said he

47:58

does see, for instance, among liberals, teenager

48:00

days, this

48:02

abuse of technology of the

48:05

smartphone, Instagram, and the

48:07

unintended consequences of that, where

48:10

anxiety, depression, suicide ideation is

48:12

pretty high. And then

48:14

he looked at some of the conservative

48:18

Christian families. And

48:21

the problem if it is there is very small, if

48:23

it's perhaps even non existent.

48:26

And I remember he said that as an

48:28

aside, but I remember just latching onto it

48:30

and thinking, but wait a second, that's a

48:33

big deal. Because you

48:35

know what I see with my friends of faith,

48:37

whether they're Jewish, Christian, or

48:40

even Muslim, and I have

48:42

Muslim friends. Technology is used

48:44

as an instrument to help you

48:46

in your daily life. It doesn't, it doesn't

48:50

hijack your daily life. And it's not

48:52

allowed to hijack your daily life. And

48:56

technology used as a useful

48:58

exactly what it says as an instrument to

49:01

enrich your life is fine. But

49:04

technology to substitute your community, your

49:06

friends, your faith to keep you

49:09

hooked, and to damage your brain,

49:11

and to damage your relationships and

49:13

to disconnect you from any everyone else in

49:15

the name of connection. That's sick.

49:18

And yes, that that has to be

49:20

discouraged. But it won't be unless we

49:22

talk about more fundamental things that we've

49:24

put a taboo on. Let me

49:26

give you an example. Everywhere

49:29

I go, every Muslim

49:32

who is an active Muslim, is

49:35

very proud about showing their

49:37

faith, the girls who wear the headscarf

49:40

or the burqa, you really

49:42

broadcast it to the world. This is

49:44

my identity. I'm a Muslim, I

49:46

pray five times a day, you know, the Ramadan,

49:49

you see in different parts of

49:51

the Western world, these fights for

49:54

rights of how to expose Islam.

49:56

We look at Christianity, this this sense

49:59

of let's not

50:01

bother others. I tear down

50:03

the Christmas tree, you know, sanitize

50:06

everything from the schoolbooks. And

50:08

if you're going to put the cross somewhere,

50:11

then put all of the other. This is

50:13

insane. It

50:16

is literally it is

50:18

an erasing of your history and

50:20

the most important part of what

50:22

makes this civilization tick. And

50:25

I think that is what we need to be

50:27

talking about. And technology and

50:29

abuse of technology is

50:31

a reflection of

50:34

the departure from these foundational principles.

50:36

One of the things I wanted to ask you on

50:38

a personal level is about your faith, because one of

50:40

the things that even people like Richard Dawkins will now

50:42

say, so Richard Dawkins is obviously one of the world's

50:44

most famous atheists, and he recently called

50:46

himself a cultural Christian, by which he meant that he likes

50:48

a lot of the trappings of Christianity, that when he walks

50:51

around Great Britain, he likes looking at the churches, and he

50:53

likes hearing the Christmas carols and all the rest

50:55

of that. And the point that I made

50:58

on my show is, okay, well, if you like those

51:00

things, then the churches can't be empty, otherwise it's just

51:02

a building. If you like Christmas carols, somebody has to

51:04

believe in Christ in order to actually sing a Christmas

51:06

carol. And that's just the way that

51:08

the culture works. But there is

51:10

a difference between understanding the cultural

51:13

value of religion, even Voltaire recognized the cultural

51:15

value of religion, the societal value of religion,

51:17

and actually believing the things. So

51:20

for you on a personal level, obviously, is

51:22

you've embraced Christianity. How did you

51:24

make the shift between understanding the

51:26

cultural necessity of Christianity in a world that

51:28

is moving away from Christian values, and actually

51:31

believing the things? I know that's

51:33

a barrier for a lot of my own listeners. I've encouraged

51:35

people to go back to church and re-embrace their faith. And

51:38

what I get a lot is, sure, I'd love to do that, but I

51:41

can't get there. So how did you get there? So

51:44

on a personal, my own personal spiritual

51:47

needs, I think I've just told you about

51:49

them, actually working on a book where I described

51:51

step by step how I got there. On

51:56

the importance

51:58

of religion. or

52:00

society. It is

52:02

just by being part of

52:05

these debates and conversations where

52:09

if I'm really honest with myself and I

52:11

don't become obsessively, you know, saying to myself,

52:13

I'm not obsessively like my

52:15

tribe is the atheist tribe. And

52:18

therefore, within my atheist tribe, if we

52:20

get things wrong, I'm just going to

52:22

pretend it's right.

52:25

I have to say

52:30

no. Actually, if you're

52:33

a proper atheist and you say, I'm

52:36

led by my curiosity, by

52:39

evidence, the overwhelming evidence

52:42

shows that communities

52:44

that are religious don't

52:47

seem to fall prey to all

52:50

the deviances that we've just been

52:52

talking about, whether it

52:54

is crime, whether it's broken families,

52:56

whether it is mental

52:59

health issues, you see that

53:01

within religious families, religious communities,

53:04

there is more stability. I'm not

53:06

saying that these things don't occur

53:09

within religious communities. They do, but

53:11

they're far less than when

53:14

people have the practice. So religion

53:16

has a function, number one, and

53:18

number two, the rootedness that

53:20

we started with, where,

53:23

you know, just think about the Ten Commandments.

53:26

That rootedness, the

53:30

church, the synagogue, the mosque,

53:33

these institutions play a role in the

53:35

day to day lives of human beings,

53:37

even if you don't believe it, even

53:39

scripture, even if you don't believe in

53:42

any of the things that are hard to

53:44

prove or that are impossible to prove. Still,

53:48

these institutions play

53:50

a great role

53:53

in our daily lives.

53:56

And where they're allowed to play

53:58

that role in a healthy way, These

54:00

communities are healthy. I

54:30

love it. My wife loves it. They're big Helix fans at the Shapiro house. I

55:02

do want

55:04

to return to your personal story though because

55:06

I do think that it's important for

55:08

a civilization not only to understand social utility of

55:10

religion, which of course I

55:12

agree with and I argue for. But also, I

55:15

get asked a lot why I believe in God,

55:17

why I believe in the Torah, for example. And

55:19

so the answer that I very typically give is

55:22

because it works, meaning that if

55:25

the basic idea is that a series of

55:27

rules is tested over time and that series

55:29

of rules proves itself durable,

55:31

that's now a form of data. And

55:34

so sure, there are miracle stories, and that

55:36

requires a leap of faith, and every system

55:38

requires a leap of faith, including militant atheism,

55:40

because there's an is-ought gap between the material

55:42

world and a set of values. You

55:45

can't get from one to the other despite the

55:47

best attempts of people who I'm friends with, like

55:49

Sam Harris, to do so. You can't just look

55:51

at the world and immediately get to, okay, here's

55:53

why all of these things are immoral. That's an

55:55

impossible bridge to gap, a gap to bridge, as

55:57

Hume pointed out. The

56:00

argument Thomas Sowell makes is that accepted wisdom

56:02

of the past is in fact a form

56:04

of data. And so if a set of

56:06

rules has worked over time, that's a pretty

56:08

good indicator. And if it is developed, a

56:10

civilization that you like, that's a good indicator there may

56:13

be truth to the rules, which suggests there may be

56:15

truth to the lawgiver. That's the argument that I've used

56:17

myself in a rationalist way. Obviously,

56:20

there's an emotional component to faith that can't be duplicated. But

56:22

in a rationalist way, that is sort of

56:25

my generalized defense of personal religiosity. What

56:27

is yours when people ask you why you're

56:29

a person of faith? What's your answer? Well,

56:33

I give the same answer as you've just

56:35

done, just not so eloquently. I'm not that,

56:37

you know, pissed. You

56:41

do say it very, very well and very, very

56:43

fast. But also

56:45

I tell my personal story in the

56:47

sense that I have sincerely

56:50

tried to live without

56:53

faith in a higher path. Do

56:57

things on my own. Answer every question.

56:59

Look it up in a book. See

57:02

a doctor. And

57:04

when I started to grapple with

57:06

questions of, you know, I don't know, existential

57:09

questions, deal

57:12

with my own anxieties, my own depression,

57:14

and even why I have them at all

57:16

or why I had them at all, I

57:19

didn't turn to a

57:22

higher power. I turned to

57:25

things, to materials, to human beings,

57:27

to alcohol. And

57:31

my problems just would not blow away. And

57:34

I had gotten myself to a place where actually I

57:36

didn't want to live anymore. I didn't

57:38

do anything. I didn't do anything active to take

57:41

my life. But the way I was drinking,

57:44

that was a form of, it

57:47

was a slow form of suicide, basically. And

57:51

I had come to that crossroads

57:55

of either just keep doing what

57:57

you're doing and die this.

58:00

death that a lot of alcoholics die

58:04

or turn away from it, choose to

58:06

live. And that

58:08

came with a therapist saying, you know, the

58:11

problem with you is you are spiritually bankrupt.

58:14

And I thought that's a

58:19

very harsh thing to say. It

58:22

hit a nerve. It resonated with me. Think

58:25

of it as a slap that turned me in the

58:27

right direction. And

58:30

as soon as I surrendered, I had

58:32

no... I

58:37

had tried everything. Anything

58:39

that a psychiatrist could prescribe, I had taken

58:41

it all. I had done it all. I

58:44

had nothing left but to

58:47

do what I did. And for me, that was...

58:49

You can think of it as a moment of

58:52

revelation. And when I prayed, I begged

58:54

God to let me live

58:56

and to take this thing

58:59

away from me. And

59:01

with this thing, I don't mean just the

59:03

drinking. I mean whatever was causing the drink,

59:05

whatever the pain, the depression, the void.

59:10

And this was in January of 2023. I

59:15

haven't touched the drink since. My life

59:17

has never been better. I

59:19

feel reconnected, literally reconnected with

59:21

myself, with my family, with...

59:25

I'm alive. I feel little things. I have

59:27

sensations. And for a long time, I didn't

59:30

have that. And

59:32

so that's my story. Now,

59:35

I've spoken to Richard Dawkins.

59:39

And Richard is not... He

59:44

respects all of that. But obviously, he's

59:46

not going to the car. I think he thinks

59:48

of himself as someone going on his knees and

59:50

praying to God. But

59:53

he's a very sensible man. He's

59:58

a dear friend. I love Richard. I

1:00:00

love Samhara. These are very, very close

1:00:02

friends, very dear friends. They

1:00:04

don't have to convert to any

1:00:07

religion. But if I

1:00:09

haven't spoken to Sam for a while, but if like

1:00:11

Richard, they say, but it is Christianity

1:00:15

is much more sensible and

1:00:18

a better story for

1:00:20

humanity. For us, those of

1:00:23

us who choose to cherish

1:00:25

its legacy, I'll

1:00:28

take that. I'll take that.

1:00:31

So let's talk about what you're doing with your

1:00:33

sub-stack, with restoration. What are your goals? What are

1:00:35

what are sort of the steps that you're hoping

1:00:37

to take toward the restoration

1:00:39

of a civilization that's worth defending?

1:00:42

So first, it's my call to

1:00:44

step away from this infighting that

1:00:46

we're doing, the entire thing that's

1:00:49

killing us. I

1:00:51

have posed the question. I said when I

1:00:53

was first post on sub-stack, I

1:00:56

used the illustration of the

1:00:58

blind man who were trying to figure out what an

1:01:00

elephant is. And that is you

1:01:03

and me and all of us, we've been trying like, what

1:01:05

the heck is going on with it? Why are we acting

1:01:07

this way? So I

1:01:10

think that has brought me to

1:01:12

follow towards, you know, the subversion line.

1:01:15

I'm 54 years old. I lived

1:01:17

again. I told you about those

1:01:19

neighborhoods that I lived in. I

1:01:22

have an experience of what it was,

1:01:24

what a society looked like before it

1:01:26

was subtracted afterwards. And I

1:01:28

think I recognize these things and I want to

1:01:30

be challenged. But when

1:01:33

I started looking into the

1:01:37

legacy of the Cold War, where

1:01:39

we thought we meaning the

1:01:42

West, America, we won

1:01:44

the war. What do

1:01:46

winners do? Winners move on.

1:01:48

And we moved on and we had, you

1:01:50

know, the 90s, what you call them the

1:01:52

end of history years. It was

1:01:54

all wonderful and technology and economy and, you

1:01:57

know, we were just flourishing and we didn't

1:01:59

have any. enemies and we'd come up

1:02:01

with these ideas that the rest

1:02:03

of the world is going to be like us. But

1:02:07

what do losers do? They

1:02:09

plot their revenge.

1:02:13

And so I think we didn't

1:02:15

reflect properly on the

1:02:17

history of the Cold War. We

1:02:19

didn't take the heed of thinkers,

1:02:22

very serious thinkers like Sam Huntington,

1:02:25

Professor Samuel Huntington, who was a prophet

1:02:27

who fought the clash of civilizations,

1:02:29

who didn't take part in the

1:02:32

celebrations. And

1:02:35

so I think if you reflect on that history, and

1:02:38

you think maybe some of those present seeds

1:02:40

that they planted back in

1:02:42

the 70s or even earlier, these

1:02:46

are now, you know,

1:02:48

they sort the seeds, they're now flourishing, we

1:02:51

now have what we call the woke. And

1:02:54

it's a phenomena that is,

1:02:56

it has

1:02:58

us all shocked and astounded, but we

1:03:01

can't, we don't seem to be able

1:03:03

to explain the pace of which these

1:03:05

fringe communities, they were in universities, people

1:03:07

who talked about gender all the time,

1:03:10

and the gender studies and race studies,

1:03:13

and they fantasized about communist utopias, they were

1:03:15

on the fringe in 1995 to 2000, when

1:03:18

I was in the

1:03:20

University of Leiden, we didn't take them

1:03:22

seriously, they didn't watch themselves. By the

1:03:24

way, they were children of rich people. So

1:03:27

they could afford to have those stupid utopias

1:03:29

of theirs. But now it's

1:03:31

there everywhere after the whole George Floyd

1:03:34

thing. I think I just sat down

1:03:36

and maybe there's something

1:03:38

to, you know, a

1:03:40

serious reflection on the Cold War, what went

1:03:42

on, the fact that we didn't really deal

1:03:44

with it properly, and

1:03:47

that we are now creeping

1:03:51

what they have sought. There's

1:03:53

also all the conversations then that you follow

1:03:55

about current disinformation,

1:03:58

which is text-centered. And

1:04:00

I think it's important to talk about that

1:04:03

subversion as well. There

1:04:06

is the one that I'm much more familiar

1:04:08

with, which is the Islamist subversion, which has

1:04:10

a name. It's called Dawa. And

1:04:13

if you look at the theologians

1:04:16

and the thinkers, the serious

1:04:18

Islamist thinkers, they agree on the

1:04:20

objectives, but they've always disagreed on

1:04:22

the means to the objectives. The

1:04:25

objective is we want to establish

1:04:27

a society based on Allah's law,

1:04:29

Sharia law. Whether

1:04:31

that is in my village, in my

1:04:33

town, in my city, in my country,

1:04:36

my region, or the whole world, the

1:04:39

objective is the same. But the

1:04:41

means to get there, they differ

1:04:43

these theologians, where some theologians play

1:04:45

the long-term game and they

1:04:47

call it gradualism, through increasing of

1:04:51

different institutions, through

1:04:53

demographics, through immigration, through

1:04:55

software. And

1:04:58

the other group would say, no, it's through

1:05:00

Harpal, through Jihad. Now, we've seen those ones

1:05:03

come and go. Al-Qaeda, don't

1:05:06

know if they entirely are gone, but

1:05:08

we've seen those attempts at, you

1:05:10

know, shock and awe, Jihad,

1:05:13

with the Islamic State of Syria,

1:05:19

of Iraq and Syria, ISIS, Hamas.

1:05:24

Hamas is, of course, the

1:05:27

daughter, the child of the Muslim Brotherhood. And

1:05:30

it's been going on, I mean, using

1:05:32

hardcore Jihad for a long time. And

1:05:35

I think that the theologians of

1:05:37

Dawa, those who say you win

1:05:40

these societies, you take them over

1:05:42

for a long time subversion, that

1:05:45

they are onto something. Because if

1:05:47

you look at European societies, all

1:05:50

you can say is just, I

1:05:52

was there 30 years ago when people

1:05:54

said, oh, it's a slippery slope, stupid

1:05:56

argument to think in those terms. And

1:05:59

now here, I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. I am the mayor

1:06:01

of Brussels has

1:06:03

just canceled NATCON, an

1:06:06

international conservative conference where

1:06:12

people who are there are trying to

1:06:14

exchange their views openly, transparently,

1:06:17

not harming anyone, but

1:06:19

the mayor of Brussels has canceled it. This

1:06:22

is 2024. How is

1:06:24

that possible? The

1:06:26

first minister of Scotland has given money

1:06:33

from the taxpayer, from the

1:06:36

public purse to Hamas and

1:06:38

has gotten away with it. How is that possible?

1:06:41

You know, there are so many things that are

1:06:43

happening that just don't make sense. And

1:06:46

I think that following the

1:06:49

story of subversion gives

1:06:51

us also normal citizens. I'm not

1:06:53

in the military. I'm not in

1:06:55

the government. I don't represent anyone.

1:06:57

Just as a normal average citizen,

1:07:00

I just wants to know what's going on

1:07:03

within my own institution. What's going on on

1:07:05

the campus of Stanford University? What

1:07:08

can I do to understand what's going on?

1:07:11

What can I do to help? And

1:07:14

my boss, finally, he's the

1:07:16

right of the Google institution. She's

1:07:18

generous enough to allow me to do

1:07:21

what I'm doing. So I guess

1:07:23

the question is, what can average everyday

1:07:25

people do about restoring the West, preserving

1:07:27

our own communities? I'm right.

1:07:31

I went on this platform, Substag,

1:07:34

that's giving the

1:07:37

opportunity for free thinkers to come together.

1:07:39

And mine is called Restoration. I invite

1:07:41

you all to subscribe. I invite you

1:07:44

to debate with me. I invite you

1:07:46

to give me feedback. That's

1:07:49

what I'm doing. I'm not in office. But if

1:07:51

you are, whatever you do, just

1:07:53

engage in trying to understand

1:07:55

and restore. Start with restoring

1:07:58

the connection to your higher power. that

1:08:00

the connections with the people

1:08:02

around you, with your community, with,

1:08:06

yeah, with if

1:08:12

you saw the connections between you and

1:08:14

your family and your community and I

1:08:16

think that's already something. Ayaan, thank

1:08:18

you so much for coming by and spending the time. Really appreciate it.

1:08:21

Okay. Thank

1:08:52

you. Thank you. Thank you

1:08:54

so much. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

1:08:57

Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much. Have

1:08:59

a great week. Bye. Take care. Thank

1:09:02

you. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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