0:00

On the Bechdelcast, the questions

0:03

asked if movies have women in them,

0:05

are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

0:08

or do they have individualism? It's

0:10

the patriarchy zefphnvest

0:12

start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

0:16

Podcasting It's a way of life.

0:19

Hashtag living, hashtag

0:23

blessed.

0:24

Hashtag podcast life.

0:26

Oh this is me posting a screenshot of our

0:28

zoom call right now. Podcast

0:30

co hosts were like siblings

0:33

hashtag podcast life.

0:35

Wow beautiful hashtag

0:37

sisters.

0:38

We are hashtag sisters. Oh my

0:41

god.

0:42

Anyway, hello and welcome hi

0:44

to the Bechdel Cast. My

0:46

name is Caitlin Daronte.

0:47

We're definitely not going to kill each other. No, my

0:50

name's Jamie Loftus, and

0:52

this is our podcast where we take a look at

0:54

your favorite movies using an intersectional

0:56

feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test

0:59

as a jumping off point for discussion.

1:01

But Caitlin, my sister.

1:03

Hashtag sisters, podcast

1:06

sister. What is the hashtag

1:08

Bechdel Test? Oh my gosh, hashtag

1:10

cinema hashtag discourse.

1:13

The hashtag Bechdel Test is

1:16

a hashtag media metric created

1:18

by at Ilison

1:20

Bechdel. Actually I don't know if that's

1:22

her handle or not off the top of my head,

1:24

but anyway, it is a media metric

1:27

that requires our version

1:29

that two characters of a marginalized

1:32

gender have names, they speak

1:34

to each other, and their conversation is

1:37

about something other than a

1:39

man. And ideally, for our sake,

1:42

we like it when it's a

1:44

narratively substantial conversation and

1:47

not like throwaway dialogue.

1:49

And today we are covering

1:51

a movie that we got a lot of requests for when it first

1:53

came out, and we said no,

1:57

But now we're saying yes. And here's

1:59

why I am

2:01

starting a podcast hashtag

2:04

Brave whoa hashtag

2:06

another podcast, another hashtag

2:08

podcast. It started

2:10

releasing on May seventh, and it's

2:12

a weekly show where I profile

2:15

a character of the day on the Internet.

2:17

So think for the first couple of episodes,

2:20

we're talking about Antoine Donson, we're

2:22

talking about the dress, We're talking

2:24

about the Boston slide cop

2:26

who slip slapped, flip flopped down

2:28

the damn slide. So it

2:31

is a half reported, half interview show

2:33

where each week we take a look at not just the character

2:36

and what happened and

2:38

why they were so notorious, but also

2:40

getting into internet history, why

2:42

did the algorithm serve you this person

2:45

at this time, and a little bit of like

2:47

a look or an attempt at

2:49

a look into why did

2:51

this person suddenly enter your life

2:53

to try to upset you on social media

2:56

even if they didn't usually completely

2:58

unintentionally. So yeah, it's a little

3:01

internet history show. I'm really really excited

3:03

about it. It's also produced by Sophie

3:05

Lichterman. We've been cooking on it

3:07

for a while and it started

3:10

to come out. I'm really excited. Yay me

3:12

too, Thank you. The trailer has

3:14

dropped in our feet already. But if

3:17

you haven't subscribed,

3:19

hashtag subscribe, hashtag

3:22

like and subscribe, I'll say it. Hashtag

3:25

like and subscribe and

3:27

follow me on Instagram for

3:30

weekly updates about the

3:33

new episodes. And

3:35

so we wanted to put together an episode

3:37

that would sort of jive with the

3:39

idea of the show about being extremely online.

3:42

And there are

3:44

not as many movies about this as I thought

3:47

there were, I'll be honest. So

3:50

this was certainly the movie we've gotten the most requests

3:52

for that is about the Internet. There's

3:54

a few others. A lot of them are like

3:57

do you remember that documentary that came out

3:59

on Netflix in it might

4:01

have been twenty twenty scary that

4:03

was called like the Social Dilemma. I

4:06

remember that.

4:06

As I didn't watch all of it.

4:08

I started it and then I was like, I

4:10

don't feel good about this.

4:12

It was so corny. I feel

4:14

like there's like always sort of this overly

4:17

simplistic message with movies

4:19

like this where they're like phone

4:22

bad and person who use phone

4:24

bad as well, and you're like, so,

4:26

anyways, there's like some documentaries about

4:28

it. There's a movie I haven't seen called

4:31

Not Okay that came out a couple of years that

4:33

also touches on this theme, but we

4:35

had not seen it and we got a request

4:37

for it. So we are covering

4:39

today a movie that it was really

4:42

interesting to revisit for me, Ingrid

4:44

Goes West, which came out in twenty

4:47

seventeen. Aubrey Plaza

4:49

and Elizabeth Olsen both

4:52

firing on all cylinders.

4:55

Yes, Caitlyn, what's your history with

4:58

Ingrid Goes West twenty seventeen.

5:00

I didn't see it in theaters, but I

5:02

saw it within a year of it coming

5:04

out, and I

5:10

will say that and this is just

5:12

a kind of personal taste

5:14

sort of thing. But I

5:17

tend to really struggle with

5:19

movies where every single character is

5:22

unlikable and just

5:24

like you're cringing at them the whole

5:27

time. And I know that that's the point

5:29

of this movie, and we'll talk a lot more

5:31

about it, and I think there is some interesting

5:34

commentary on social media and

5:36

its effects from this movie. But

5:39

it's such a stressful movie for me to

5:41

watch.

5:42

It's so like it's like a

5:44

thriller, Like, yeah,

5:47

truly, I think it is. Like when the movie

5:49

ended, I felt like I didn't realize

5:51

how tight my chest had gotten. Uh huh,

5:53

Which, even though I don't love everything about this movie,

5:56

I was like, well, I guess it was effective in making

5:58

my body hurt, like WHI is wild.

6:01

Yeah, to the point where I

6:04

watch every movie at least twice to

6:06

prep for every episode we do. And after

6:08

my first watch of this, I was like, I don't think I

6:10

can watch this again. I'm too

6:13

stressed out. But I did anyway,

6:16

So you're welcome, listeners. Brave hashtag

6:18

brave hashtag's so brave. But

6:21

yeah, it's a very stressful movie for

6:24

me, So I didn't revisit it

6:26

after seeing it that first time, back in either

6:28

twenty seventeen or twenty eighteen, even though

6:30

I think it has like good performances and you

6:33

know, it's a good script and things like that. But

6:36

yeah, too stressful.

6:39

But prepping for this episode was interesting

6:41

and I'm excited to talk about it too.

6:45

What is your relationship with the

6:47

movie.

6:48

I saw this when it came out ish,

6:50

same deal within a year. I don't

6:52

think I saw it in theaters, but I

6:55

am an Aubrey Plaza fan. She

6:57

was like working a lot during

6:59

this time. But I

7:02

wanted to see it because I was like, oh, I've never seen a

7:04

movie about this before, and

7:06

I feel like it is kind of doing

7:08

a talented mister Ripley thing but for

7:11

the internet, you know. I was like, Okay, this is a

7:13

cool concept. But I really didn't

7:15

like it the first time I saw it, and

7:18

as I was watching, I was trying to remember

7:21

exactly why. And

7:23

I do think there's still things I don't

7:25

like about this movie, and there are still

7:27

things that feel very like, yeah, two

7:30

men wrote this movie, for sure, But

7:33

I liked it. But when I say I liked,

7:35

I mean it's like hard to enjoy this movie because

7:37

it is trying to give you

7:40

a panic attack in the same way

7:42

that I feel like Uncut Gems is trying

7:44

to give you a panic attack. Yes, yes,

7:47

which you know means that they're doing what they're supposed

7:49

to be doing, and you know, the whole time, I was like, I remember

7:51

what happens with Ingrid, but I'm so scared

7:54

for literally everyone on

7:56

screen at all times.

7:57

Right.

7:58

But I liked it more this time,

8:00

and I feel like this movie is aging

8:03

in an interesting way.

8:05

I feel like at the time, outside

8:08

of the criticism that I think is still

8:10

valid of like la la la, women

8:12

are so petty. On the revisit,

8:15

I like the script more. Everyone

8:18

in this movie is petty to some

8:20

degree, and I think I hyper focused

8:23

on that at the time and it makes

8:25

me feel like old. But

8:28

I think that at the time I saw this, I was

8:30

like, this is so cynical about

8:34

the Internet, and I think I just had

8:36

more faith in

8:39

the Internet when

8:42

I saw this movie for the first time than

8:44

I do now, Like I think that that was

8:46

a big thing. I was like, yeah, of course

8:48

everyone is lying on social media. It was true

8:51

then, it was true. Now It's not like I didn't know

8:53

that, but I just felt like I still

8:55

felt some kind of optimism

8:57

about the Internet that I no longer feel.

9:00

So I think that the story just in general

9:03

kind of worked better for me this

9:06

time. Yeah, but yeah, it's a

9:08

tricky little movie. I uh

9:10

sure is. I really enjoyed

9:13

writing for this, especially like, yeah, because I've been

9:15

spending the last couple of months thinking

9:17

about, you know, like what makes an Internet

9:20

character of the day, how do these conversations

9:22

online go. I was going

9:25

back to like letterbox reviews

9:27

at the time, and I was not

9:29

alone in thinking that this movie

9:32

was like maybe dismissive

9:34

towards millennials in general, of

9:37

like, oh, a lot of the reviews I was

9:39

seeing from people I know people I

9:41

didn't know were like, we get it, phone

9:43

bad, too much Instagram blah blah

9:46

blah. But it felt easier

9:48

to brush off then. And maybe that's just

9:50

because social media has gotten so

9:52

much worse since twenty seventeen,

9:55

and this movie has obviously a very uncharitable

9:57

opinion of social media.

10:00

I feel like people I know who didn't

10:03

like this or like rolled their eyes at it at

10:05

the time might like it

10:07

better now. I

10:09

think, I don't know, Yeah, yeah,

10:12

I would be curious because I don't think that. I mean, it

10:14

wasn't a popular enough movie that I don't think anyone

10:17

has really revisited it. But it's

10:19

weirdly like one of the only movies

10:21

of this genre at

10:23

least that I've seen.

10:25

Same. Yeah, it's

10:27

quite unlike most things.

10:30

Yeah, I said brilliantly hashtag

10:32

brilliant.

10:33

Hashtag genius. I

10:35

also think I didn't know who Whyatt

10:38

Russell was the last time I saw this movie.

10:40

I think the main thing this movie did for me at the time

10:43

is made me a fan of Oh Jackson

10:45

Junior.

10:46

Yes, I think this was also the first thing I

10:48

saw him. And I can't remember if I saw when did Straight

10:50

Out of Compton come out?

10:52

That came out in twenty fifteen.

10:54

Okay, so maybe I had already seen

10:56

him in that.

10:57

I had seen him in that, But that movie is just like what isn't

11:00

very good? Yeah, I love f Gary Gray,

11:02

but I've liked them. I don't think anyone thought

11:04

that movie was very good. In

11:06

any case, this movie, I just wanted

11:09

to shout out and oops, all nepotism

11:11

cast with You've got

11:13

Osha Jackson Junior.

11:15

Yeah, an ice cube,

11:18

you've.

11:18

Got Elizabeth Olsen the older

11:21

younger ooh, younger

11:23

sister, I think of the Olsen twins.

11:26

I don't know.

11:26

Yes, she's younger, younger, she's

11:29

born in nineteen eighty nine. Wow, she

11:31

is younger than I thought. And then Wyatt

11:34

Russell, who's double NEPO

11:36

Kurt Russell and Goldie Hans.

11:38

Oh, I did not realize that.

11:41

Yeah, so this is majority

11:44

NEPO cast. No judgment. I'm

11:47

just saying it's funny. And I don't

11:49

think I knew that at the time. I knew who Osha Jackson

11:52

Junior was. I don't really

11:54

care about Marvel movies, so this might have been the first

11:56

movie I saw Elizabeth Olsen in as well.

11:59

Well. Other her Marvel connection

12:02

is the actor who plays

12:04

Harley Chung. Her name is Tom

12:06

Clement type it is maybe how

12:08

you U say it. She plays Mantis in

12:12

We'll see in the Other.

12:15

Yeah, boy does she I did not

12:17

connect that at all. Wow. So we've

12:19

got a lot of Marvel, We've got a lot of NEPO.

12:22

We've also got Billy Magnuson, who I think

12:25

is neither but I like him.

12:27

But boy, is his character a piece

12:29

of shit? I was like, horrible, sort

12:32

of rooting for Ingrid to finish him off. But yeah,

12:35

anyways, the movie. The

12:38

movie.

12:38

Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back

12:41

to recap.

12:51

And we're back, all

12:53

right.

12:54

So here's the recap. I will place

12:56

a content warning at the top

12:58

here for suicide. We

13:02

meet Ingrid Sorburne played

13:04

by Abby Plaza. She is

13:07

crying and scrolling through Instagram

13:09

photos of a wedding of

13:12

someone named Charlotte. Then we get the

13:14

reveal that Ingrid is at the

13:16

wedding, crashing it, and

13:19

she walks up to the bride, Charlotte,

13:21

and Pepper sprays her and says like, thanks

13:24

for inviting me, you fucking kunt,

13:26

which does pass the Bechdel test.

13:29

I thought that too,

13:31

yay, okay.

13:34

So then we see Ingrid in

13:36

a psychiatric hospital and

13:38

she's still attempting to contact

13:40

Charlotte via a letter I

13:43

think, in which we learn that

13:45

Ingrid's mom has recently passed

13:47

away. Then Ingrid is released

13:49

from the hospital and we see

13:51

her continue to obsessively

13:54

scroll through Instagram.

13:57

Then she sees a magazine article

14:00

about someone named Taylor Sloan

14:02

played by Elizabeth Olsen. Taylor

14:05

is an influencer with over two

14:07

hundred and fifty thousand followers on Instagram.

14:10

She lives in LA She's

14:13

very attractive, she has cute stuff,

14:16

and she posts photos of

14:18

her life on Instagram,

14:20

of her clothes, her meals,

14:22

her husband, her dog. You

14:25

know, typical influencer stuff.

14:27

I remember vaguely, and listeners,

14:30

let us know if you agree

14:33

that it felt a little dated even

14:35

in twenty seventeen. I feel like it's like sort

14:37

of like early early Instagram,

14:39

where it's like heavy on the filters,

14:42

a lot of food, a lot of hashtags,

14:45

and like even by twenty seventeen that wasn't really happening,

14:47

but it did feel like going in like a little social

14:50

media spaceship into the past, because

14:52

people don't really do that now. They're like

14:55

conspiracy theorists or podcasters

14:59

or both or both.

15:01

I can't super speak to it because I've

15:03

never been very active on Instagram and

15:05

I only started using it around

15:07

the time this movie came out. What

15:10

if this movie inspired me to start

15:12

on Instagram.

15:13

I think I started using it like in Earnest

15:16

in like twenty fifteen.

15:18

Okay, but even that was like a little bit after.

15:21

I feel like this peak kind

15:23

of influencer, but

15:26

it's interesting.

15:26

Yeah, it is interesting. Yeah, I was

15:29

not, and I'm still not a big

15:31

user of the platform,

15:33

and mostly I just use it to get

15:36

news and look

15:39

at cat videos. So those

15:42

are my influencers.

15:44

I mean same.

15:47

Okay. So Ingrid is reading

15:49

about Taylor Sloan and scrolling through

15:51

her Instagram and she is mesmerized

15:54

by what she sees, you

15:56

know, this glamorous southern

15:58

California life. And

16:01

Ingrid comments on a post

16:03

of Taylor's which is a photo of

16:06

avocado toast.

16:08

Hashtag millennials,

16:09

that's how our generation

16:11

ruined the economy. I loved that

16:14

storyline.

16:16

That's why we aren't paying back

16:18

our student loans because we're spending all

16:20

of our money on avocado toast.

16:23

Yeah damn, We're

16:25

so messy anyways.

16:27

Right, So then Ingrid is out getting groceries

16:30

and she overhears one of Charlotte's

16:33

friends talking about Ingrid saying

16:35

that she and Charlotte weren't even friends.

16:38

That Ingrid basically instagram stocked

16:41

Charlotte and we're like, hmm,

16:44

that's interesting. And

16:46

Ingrid is crying about this, But

16:49

then she sees that Taylor

16:51

has responded to her comment, recommending

16:54

that she try out a particular restaurant

16:56

the next time she's in LA, and

17:00

Ingrid is thrilled, and

17:02

this seems to prompt Ingrid

17:04

to move to LA, especially

17:07

after she receives somewhere

17:09

around a like sixty thousand dollars

17:11

inheritance or like life insurance

17:14

payout or something of that nature after

17:17

her mom passed away. So

17:19

she arrives in LA and rents

17:22

an apartment from Dan Pinto

17:24

played by oh Jackson Jr. He

17:27

is an aspiring screenwriter who

17:30

is obsessed with Batman. Hilarious

17:33

Yeah, I mean, great.

17:35

Character and also oh

17:37

my god, like again just another anxiety

17:40

inducing person. Yes, like

17:43

aspiring screenwriter slash

17:45

landlord as such a stressful

17:48

m description.

17:51

The thing though about all of these characters is

17:54

they are not even really caricatures

17:56

of a lot of LA people. Like

17:58

everyone in this I'm like, yeah, I've

18:01

encountered someone pretty much exactly like that

18:03

here in La.

18:04

Yeah.

18:04

So so there's

18:07

that anyway. So Ingrid is

18:09

now living in LA and she starts going

18:12

to the shops and restaurants

18:14

and salons that Taylor posts

18:16

about on social media. She reads

18:19

the same books as Taylor, she

18:21

buys the same stuff. All of that I

18:23

like that.

18:24

Taylor is so us in

18:26

the sense that she lies about reading

18:28

books.

18:31

Yeah.

18:31

I was like, Oh, we're supposed to be mad

18:33

about that she's busy.

18:35

Yeah, we find out that she's never She claims

18:38

that The Deer Park is her favorite

18:40

book, and then we find out she's never read it,

18:43

and we're like.

18:43

Wow, oh well, oh well,

18:46

we.

18:46

Don't read books either, Taylor. It's okay. So

18:50

then one day Ingrid bumps

18:52

into Taylor at a store, and

18:54

Ingrid is trying to act cool but also like

18:57

trying to get Taylor to notice her,

18:59

and Taylor definitely does notice her, but

19:01

it's because Ingrid is not acting

19:04

cool. She's being very awkward. She

19:06

almost like absent mindedly shoplifts,

19:10

you know, stuff like that.

19:12

She's doing Aubrey Plaza.

19:14

This is what Aubrey Plaza characters do

19:17

at this time, and I'm still kind of

19:19

yeah.

19:20

So then Ingrid stalks Taylor

19:23

to her house and stays

19:25

there all day, and

19:27

then when Taylor leaves to go out that night,

19:30

Ingrid kidnaps her dog so

19:33

that she can return the dog to Taylor

19:36

and seem like a hero, which

19:38

works. Taylor and her husband,

19:40

Ezra played by Wyatt Russell are

19:43

so grateful and they're like, oh my gosh,

19:46

let us make you dinner. So

19:48

Ingrid stays for dinner. They're having

19:50

a nice time, and Ingrid does

19:52

whatever she can to endear herself

19:55

to them. She buys a piece of

19:57

Ezra's art, which

20:00

is ugly.

20:03

She it's bad.

20:05

It's not good.

20:06

If we can't say that men's art is bad

20:08

on this show, why do we even start it? Yeah,

20:12

this is where she goes full mister Ripley

20:14

mode, because even though she's socially awkward,

20:17

she's really great at

20:19

intuiting. Although at some point I

20:21

will say, I mean, it's just it's not a

20:23

feminist criticism of the movie. But

20:25

at some point during the middle of this movie,

20:28

I'm like, would

20:30

she continue to get away with this? Like,

20:32

if I'm Elizabeth Olsen, once I see that she

20:34

has a gun with her, I'm like, I'm gonna

20:37

get out of here.

20:38

I'm gonna leave, you would think yeah.

20:40

But anyways, she's ripleying. She's

20:43

working on another level.

20:44

Because she also offers to haul

20:47

their trailer to the house

20:49

they have in Joshua Tree because they need

20:51

someone with a truck. Only

20:53

Ingrid doesn't have a truck, but her

20:56

landlord Dan Pinto does

20:59

so she asks to borrow it

21:01

and he is reluctant, but he also has

21:03

a crush on her and agrees

21:06

to lend Ingrid the truck if

21:08

she plays Catwoman in an upcoming

21:10

table read for his unauthorized

21:13

Batman screenplay.

21:15

They are so stressful, as

21:19

like, she does him

21:21

dirty time and time again. She's the worst,

21:24

But it is also

21:26

so mean to ask someone to do a

21:28

Batman table read with you.

21:31

True, although I was kind

21:33

of taking inventory of all of the characters,

21:36

and then I was trying to think, like, of

21:39

these people, if I had to be

21:41

friends with one of them, Oh, who

21:43

would it be? And it would be him and

21:45

we would just talk about Batman. I guess

21:48

it would be him.

21:48

Yeah, you would see him like once every three

21:51

months and be kind

21:53

of exhausted at the end of the hang, but be like

21:55

he's a nice guy. Whatever. Yeah,

21:58

I wish it wasn't a landlord, but times

22:00

are tough. I guess it's like, yeah.

22:03

Well, he's not selling his illegal

22:05

Batman scripts that he's writing,

22:07

so he's got to make money somehow.

22:10

It's true. God,

22:12

landlords with dreams.

22:14

Gross anyway, So Ingrid

22:17

gets the truck and takes Taylor

22:19

and her trailer, which I think should

22:21

be the name of a hashtag

22:24

podcast.

22:24

Maybe a Taylor's

22:27

Swift the podcast.

22:31

She takes them to Joshua Tree,

22:34

except that she pretends it's her truck

22:36

slash that she's borrowing

22:39

it from her boyfriend

22:42

Dan. She makes up a story about how

22:44

Dan is actually her boyfriend.

22:46

I do like this is just like something I think

22:48

is fun in movies where for no reason

22:50

at all, a character is almost always referred

22:52

to as their full name, And like

22:55

Dan Pinto, just like it

22:57

just trips off the tongue, and people just love

22:59

to say. They don't want to just say

23:01

Dan, They want to say Dan Pinto.

23:04

Dan is not enough syllables. You

23:06

need the whole thing, Dan Pinto's

23:08

true.

23:09

You need to keep the momentum going exactly.

23:11

He doesn't seem bothered by it, so.

23:14

Whatever, Yeah, okay.

23:17

So on the way to Joshua Tree, Taylor

23:19

is like, oh my god, Ingrid, you're so funny.

23:22

I love you. You're my favorite person. Let's

23:24

take pictures together. And obviously

23:26

Ingrid is loving this, and

23:30

Ingrid bails on Dan Pinto's

23:33

Batman script. Table read

23:35

in favor of spending more time with Taylor.

23:38

They do cocaine, they

23:40

go out dancing, they're bonding,

23:43

and on the way to the

23:46

Joshua Tree house, Ingrid

23:49

fucks up Dan's truck because

23:51

they're so distracted by singing.

23:53

Casey and JoJo's all my life to

23:56

each other, and so the truck

23:58

is all fucked up, and Taylor's

24:01

like, don't even worry about it. Everything's

24:03

gonna be fine. And

24:05

then Taylor tells Ingrid

24:07

a secret that she plans to buy

24:09

the house next door in Joshua Tree and

24:12

open up a boutique hotel

24:14

where everything inside is

24:17

for sale, which sounds

24:20

I hate it, but yeah,

24:22

well no, it sounds horrible.

24:24

Horrible, I mean horrible. Yeah, that's

24:26

like something that changed between my first

24:29

view the first time I saw this movie and now you're like,

24:31

oh, everyone in this movie is

24:34

horrible. Yes, because maybe

24:37

I felt like the writing was on the

24:39

side of her, her

24:41

husband, but on a rewatch,

24:43

I actually think this movie is on the side of

24:46

nobody. It's a pretty cynical.

24:48

Yeah, like everyone sucks Her idea

24:50

for an influencer hotel

24:53

is horrible. Truly,

24:55

it's gross, but I'm sure it would have worked.

24:58

I mean for sure. I mean like that

25:00

feels very like Joshua

25:02

Tree gentrification vibes, you know,

25:05

for sure.

25:05

Yeah, and Ingrid is like, oh my god,

25:08

it's the best idea of ever

25:11

Taylor. And Taylor

25:14

doesn't want her husband Ezra to

25:16

know about this because of financial

25:18

reasons, so now they have this little secret.

25:21

The next day, they return to La and

25:24

Ingrid drops off Dan's truck. He's

25:26

furious at her for bailing on the table

25:28

read and leaving this huge scratch

25:31

on the truck.

25:32

This is the point where you're just like, does

25:34

she really get out of this scrap in real

25:37

life? But I guess I never

25:39

underestimate a horny straight

25:41

guy, Like maybe

25:44

I don't know.

25:44

Right, it causes like he says,

25:46

eight thousand dollars of damage to his truck,

25:49

and he forgives her because

25:51

she's like, let's go on a date and he's like,

25:53

Okay, I like you and I want to have sex

25:55

with you.

25:57

So dude's rock.

25:59

But he's like yelling at her in this scene,

26:02

but she doesn't even freaking care because

26:04

she has just gotten a notification that

26:06

Taylor tagged her in a photo

26:09

on Instagram. So Ingrid is

26:11

on cloud nine

26:13

and she keeps hanging out with Taylor.

26:16

She's spending a lot of her money

26:18

on clothes and home decorps

26:21

to impress Taylor. Then

26:24

Ingrid meets Taylor's brother, Nicki

26:26

played by Billy Magnuson,

26:28

who comes to La for

26:31

a visit, and Ingrid is jealous

26:33

that he's commanding a lot of Taylor's attention,

26:35

especially when Taylor bails

26:37

on plans that she and Ingrid have

26:39

to hang out in order to go

26:41

to a party with Nicki

26:44

and this fashion influencer

26:47

Harley Chung played by Palm

26:49

clement Tyfe. Ingrid tries

26:52

to go to this event but

26:54

then like can't get into the VIP area

26:57

and they're like, ooh, sorry about that, but

26:59

hey, why don't you come to a pool

27:01

party this weekend that Harley

27:03

is throwing and bring your

27:06

boyfriend Dan because

27:09

they were joking behind Ingrid's back that

27:11

her boyfriend is imaginary.

27:13

Oh god, one of the many

27:16

scenes that oh, like just made my chest

27:18

tighten. I can't write like that to like

27:20

find a moment like that where it's like Taylor

27:23

is caught in a lie being like, oh,

27:26

I didn't say your boyfriend doesn't exist,

27:28

and like, Ingrid knows people

27:30

are talking shit around her back, but she's just like,

27:33

I gotta make it through this interaction. And

27:35

you're like, oh, it's just so

27:38

painful.

27:39

It is, and they're not even

27:41

wrong because Dan isn't her

27:44

boyfriend.

27:45

No, it is wild how easy

27:48

it is for Ingrid to be like, you're my boyfriend.

27:50

He's like totally okay, yeah,

27:52

yeah right.

27:54

So now Ingrid has to make amends with Dan

27:56

Pinto, who is still pissed for the

27:59

truck fiasco and the table read thing.

28:02

But she buys him some Batman

28:04

gifts and some weed, and she

28:07

takes him out to dinner and it's like

28:09

kind of a date and then they start making

28:11

out and then they go to his place and have

28:13

sex and they're doing like batman

28:15

catwoman role play and

28:18

he's like whoo. And

28:21

she invites him to this pool party and he agrees

28:24

to go. So at the pool party,

28:27

Ingrid is being very unchill

28:30

because she keeps feeling

28:32

like Dan is embarrassing

28:34

her. Dan is bonding

28:37

with Nicki, who Ingrid still

28:39

hates, and most importantly,

28:41

it's obvious that Taylor is less

28:44

enthusiastic about her friendship with Ingrid

28:46

because Taylor has clearly moved on to

28:49

Harley as her new like bff

28:52

of the moment, and Ingrid is

28:54

very jealous. So she betrays

28:57

Taylor and tells Ezra

28:59

about that secret they had the

29:01

you know, boutique hotel

29:03

idea yeah, and Ezra

29:06

is like, oh, so typical because

29:09

his wife has become so phony

29:12

recently, not like me.

29:16

He's an artist.

29:17

Yeah, there's somebody interesting, like

29:19

yeah, how he talks like his

29:22

wife like that Taylor bullied

29:25

him into being I'm like, you

29:27

have agency here as raw yeah

29:29

okay, yes, and he sort of resents

29:31

her for being supportive.

29:33

I don't know, yeah right, but

29:35

he's also like pretentious and

29:38

yeah he's shitty in his own way.

29:41

They're the worst, yes, but in

29:43

different ways.

29:45

Okay.

29:45

So then Ingrid can't find her phone

29:47

because Nikki had swiped it, and

29:50

he finds all of these photos that Ingrid

29:53

took of stuff in Taylor's

29:55

bathroom and photos of Taylor

29:57

sleeping and no

30:00

of all of Taylor's favorite things,

30:02

and Nicki is like, what the fuck, you

30:05

creep, and he

30:07

claims to be looking out for his sister, but then he's

30:10

like, I won't tell Taylor if you give

30:12

me five thousand dollars a month, so

30:14

he's trying to extort her, and she

30:18

then pays some

30:20

guy to punch her in the face

30:23

so that it's more believable

30:25

when Ingrid tells Dan that

30:27

Nicky assaulted her, so

30:30

that Dan will help her scare

30:32

Nikki off because she knows

30:34

that Dan has a gun, so

30:37

they kidnap Nicki and drive him out

30:39

to the desert. Nicki fights back,

30:41

but then Ingrid hits him over the

30:43

head with a crowbar or something

30:46

and leaves him there.

30:46

It's very like hijinksy. This

30:49

movie sort of deviates into hijinks

30:51

occasionally.

30:52

For a moment here and there.

30:53

Yeah, do we know why Dan Pinto has a gun?

30:56

It's not a real gun. It is a paintball gun.

30:58

Right right right?

30:59

Right?

30:59

Okay, yeah, because I was like, he

31:02

is a dorc why is he? M? M

31:04

okay it's painpal gun. Yes, yes.

31:07

So Dan ends up

31:09

in the hospital after this altercation

31:11

with Nicki, and Taylor

31:13

calls Ingrid and she's like, hey, do you know where

31:16

my brother is? And she's

31:18

like, definitely not, but I'm sure

31:20

he's fine.

31:22

Let's get avocado toast.

31:23

Girly, and

31:26

then Ingrid finds out that Taylor

31:29

has taken another trip to Joshua

31:31

Tree, so Ingrid drives there

31:33

to stalk her. Yeah, but then finds

31:35

out that Taylor is not actually there and

31:38

that she doesn't want to see or talk to Ingrid

31:40

anymore because she found

31:42

out what Ingrid did to Nicki

31:45

her brother.

31:45

And I think kind of like massively

31:49

underreacts. Yeah,

31:51

not that I would advise involving

31:53

the police, but it just didn't make sense

31:56

to me. It seems like Taylor would have no issue

31:58

calling the police, you know what I mean, right. I

32:01

was surprised at how generous

32:04

she was in that situation, because I'm like, if I

32:06

were Taylor, I would be like, I don't feel

32:09

safe for sure. That's scary.

32:12

There's some comment that I think Ezra

32:14

makes to the effect of, if

32:17

Nicky didn't try to extort you,

32:19

you'd be in jail right now. So I think

32:21

that because Nicky did

32:24

something illegal, that's why they don't

32:26

go to the police. But

32:29

I don't know the logic of these choices.

32:32

It's confusing.

32:33

In any case, Ingrid makes this situation

32:35

even worse by calling Taylor

32:38

many times and leaving a bunch

32:40

of voicemails then

32:43

Ingrid puts a down payment on

32:45

a house in Joshua Tree, the

32:48

house next to the one that Taylor owns

32:51

aka the house that Taylor wanted

32:53

to buy to turn into the boutique

32:55

hotel. But this is the last

32:57

of Ingrid's money, so now she

33:00

broke. She's living in Squalor.

33:04

She sees then that Taylor's

33:06

having a Halloween party next door, so

33:08

she puts on like a white sheet to

33:10

pretend to be a ghost and

33:13

crashes the party, and

33:15

Taylor and Ezra and Nikki are all like,

33:18

what the fuck are you doing here? Leave

33:20

us alone? So then

33:23

Ingrid goes back to her house

33:25

and records a video of herself saying

33:28

that everything she's posted

33:30

in the past few months has been a lie. She

33:33

has not been living this glamorous la

33:35

life. She's a loser. She

33:38

knows that something is wrong with her, but she doesn't

33:40

know how to fix it or how to change.

33:42

She feels lonely, she feels

33:45

despair, and she posts

33:47

this video to her followers

33:49

on Instagram, which she's accumulated

33:52

I think like a few thousand, I'm guessing

33:54

because of her proximity to Taylor

33:56

and like being tagged in photos

33:59

of Taylors and things like that. This video

34:01

is effectively a suicide note. She

34:03

posts it and then she attempts suicide.

34:07

She wakes up in the hospital

34:10

having survived because

34:12

Dan had seen the video and called nine

34:15

to one one, and so she

34:17

survives, and she learns that the video

34:20

she posted went viral,

34:22

and now she has tons of followers

34:24

and people who care

34:27

about her and who have sent her

34:29

gifts and all of this stuff. She's

34:31

even a hashtag. And so

34:33

the movie ends on this note, or at least

34:35

my interpretation of it, is that

34:38

she has learned nothing and

34:41

she'll continue to seek validation

34:44

from social media and other kind

34:46

of like superficial sources.

34:49

The end.

34:51

So that's the movie on.

34:53

That awesome note. Let's take a quick break

34:56

and we'll be right back, and

35:06

we're back. Okay,

35:09

Yeah, this movie is

35:11

really challenging. Okay,

35:14

So I want to talk about some of the criticism

35:17

of this movie that came out at the time, because I

35:19

think a lot of it is valid, and I also kind

35:21

of want to revisit it a little bit because I

35:23

think that this movie does not

35:27

do great on

35:29

the subject of mental health.

35:30

Agree.

35:31

I think that that is like one of its major

35:34

flaws, but the way that it

35:36

fumbles it. I think I feel differently than I did

35:38

when I first saw it, because

35:40

it feels like Ingrid

35:43

is a destructive She's

35:46

struggling with mental illness and grief the entire

35:49

movie, and we know this about

35:51

her, and she is

35:53

unable to get the help

35:55

that she needs, and

35:58

it feels like she is stuck in

36:00

this. I think I originally was like my

36:02

first viewing at this, I was like, Oh, we're supposed to hate

36:05

Ingrid, but I didn't really feel that way this

36:07

time. I felt like it. And maybe

36:09

I'm giving the movie too much credit, but

36:11

it was It's like, because

36:13

social media was and

36:15

is such an under explored

36:19

addictive process, It's like every

36:21

time like she has the drug

36:23

in her hand at all times, and

36:26

no one really acknowledges

36:29

it as an addiction and as a

36:31

drug that can exacerbate

36:34

and make the mental

36:36

illnesses that she's struggling with even harder

36:39

to deal with. And so I don't know, it's

36:41

tricky because she does so many

36:43

unforgivable things. But I

36:45

did find myself like empathizing with her

36:48

because I've struggled with mental illness

36:50

and like OCD specifically, and social

36:53

media is designed to make

36:55

that worse and designed

36:57

to encourage that and attach social

36:59

currency and the concept of acceptance

37:02

to that. So, like I, while

37:04

I cannot relate with kidnapping

37:07

Billy Magnuson and like,

37:09

you know, completely uprooting my life,

37:12

I did feel like it was

37:14

interesting to see a character

37:16

who is struggling with obsessive

37:19

thoughts and compulsive

37:21

behaviors and how social

37:23

media is absolutely designed to make

37:25

that worse. The way it's handled

37:28

from moment to moment, I feel like is

37:30

all over the place for me.

37:33

Right, because, like the movie's

37:36

agenda is very clearly to examine

37:39

what social media can do to

37:42

people's mental health, how it can

37:45

encourage an impulse for people

37:48

to compare themselves

37:50

to others, how it can breed

37:53

loneliness. And then on the kind of influencer

37:55

side of things, it shows how

37:58

their job is to hawk

38:00

stuff, whether that's like food

38:02

at a restaurant, apparel,

38:05

accessories, makeup whatever, or

38:08

just like a general like image

38:10

or lifestyle almost and

38:13

how doing that basically

38:17

encourages that impulse to

38:19

compare yourself to others and feel

38:21

insecure and feel lonely,

38:23

and how it's just like this cyclical

38:26

mess, and the movie acknowledges that and

38:29

explores it. But like you were saying,

38:31

as far as how it handles

38:34

it, and especially handles mental

38:38

health.

38:39

As well as like suicidality, I've felt.

38:41

Like I'm not thrilled with

38:43

it.

38:43

Yeah.

38:44

On one hand, I do think the movie could

38:46

be a lot more judgmental

38:49

of people who are like

38:51

influenced by influencers,

38:55

especially for a movie that was written and

38:57

directed by men, because men

39:00

often have a habit of

39:02

observing women and kind

39:04

of misinterpreting what

39:07

is going on. So I feel like it would have been very

39:09

easy for, you know,

39:11

most male filmmakers to observe

39:14

women who are on both sides

39:17

of the like influencer social

39:20

media phenomenon and cast a lot

39:22

of judgment on them, the way that

39:25

men constantly cast judgment

39:27

on women for things like feeling

39:30

pressure to adhere to societal

39:32

expectations that men largely

39:35

reinforce. Right, the movie doesn't

39:38

quite do that, but it does not

39:41

seem to have very much empathy

39:43

for the mental health

39:46

issues that Ingrid is dealing

39:49

with.

39:50

Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like, in

39:52

the effort to get their message

39:54

across about social media. The

39:57

way that mental health is treated is

40:00

undercooked in service of

40:02

that point, which

40:05

sucks because I think it's a really

40:08

hard needle to thread and

40:10

one that I would rather I mean this honestly,

40:13

this movie just maybe want to see movies about

40:15

social media addiction, not

40:17

by men, and not to say that men

40:19

can't be addicted to social media. They absolutely

40:22

can and are. But this was like talking

40:24

about a very particular gendered

40:27

form of plucking

40:29

the show again, sixteenth minute on

40:31

cool Zone Media. I was just talking

40:34

with friend of the cast, Bridget

40:36

Todd this morning, yes, of course, who

40:38

hosts There Are No Girls on the Internet and talks about

40:40

these topics a lot, and you

40:43

know, she was speaking to the point that I think is

40:45

done more thoughtfully in this movie, which is

40:47

that social media is designed

40:49

to make women feel like shit, and

40:52

the content that the algorithm

40:55

favors tends to be very aspirational

40:58

to make women feel like shit about

41:01

their body, about their class, about their lifestyle,

41:04

about any number of things.

41:06

And I do like that.

41:09

Again, the easy choice here would have been to

41:11

make Taylor the influencer

41:13

be a super villain who is

41:16

lying in a less

41:18

complicated way than she's actually

41:20

lying. But it

41:23

doesn't, and I do appreciate that, you

41:25

know, like Taylor is in sort

41:27

of this trap of maybe not

41:29

of her own making, but sort of of her own making,

41:31

where it's become her

41:34

job to perform

41:36

feeling great, and she

41:38

doesn't like she has any number

41:40

of problems like normal people would,

41:43

but can't say that.

41:45

I am interested in, like the monetizing

41:49

yourself and your personality,

41:51

and I think that that is

41:53

just like always a more slippery slope

41:56

if you're marginalized in

41:58

any way, especially like before

42:00

there were any conversations around it, like so easy

42:02

to get trapped in like a rigid self,

42:06

and if you act outside of this self,

42:08

you're acting off brand, and that's

42:11

bad. And like, I think this movie does

42:13

do some stuff to acknowledge

42:16

that, you know, the influencers are

42:18

also in a different

42:21

kind of mental prison, right, And

42:24

it doesn't mean that the

42:26

actions of influencers are universally

42:29

forgivable, because you know, Taylor

42:31

is still not great, right,

42:34

But I like that she is not great in a way

42:36

that still feels very human. And

42:38

I just feel like her character was generally

42:41

better thought through than Ingrid's at

42:43

times, which is frustrating because I

42:46

think Ingrid is We're given the ingredients

42:48

to have a lot of interesting discussions

42:50

in this movie around grief,

42:53

around mental health, and around

42:55

how you are with a tiny

42:57

computer all the time that says it's helping

42:59

you with these exact things, and almost

43:02

always isn't like, but

43:06

it's an interesting movie to go back to because

43:08

you're like, they didn't quite get it. But

43:11

I think it's aging better than I expected.

43:14

Right, I mean again, the thing that it's always

43:17

gonna boil down to for me

43:19

is that the Ingrid

43:22

character, it's not necessarily

43:25

unsympathetic or

43:27

unempathetic toward

43:30

her, especially when you learn

43:33

the directors and the writers'

43:36

intentions with the character.

43:39

So I will share a quote

43:41

from what I think might be a press release.

43:44

I don't really know what this was, but it's possibly

43:47

a press release from Mongrel

43:49

Media, which is the film

43:51

distribution company that I

43:54

believe distributed Ingrid Goes West.

43:57

And in this document is

43:59

a an interview with

44:01

Matt Spicer, who directed

44:03

and co wrote the movie, and he was asked

44:06

how did this project originate and

44:09

he says, quote, my co

44:11

writer, David Branson Smith and I

44:13

have been friends for many years and

44:15

we're looking for something to work on together. We

44:17

were having lunch and talking about our mutual

44:20

obsession with Instagram and how it brings

44:22

out the worst in us, making us feel

44:24

bad about ourselves while also being

44:26

wildly entertaining and addictive. He

44:29

asked me if I thought there was a movie there, which

44:31

I did. The obvious choice was

44:33

to make single white female for the

44:35

social media generation, with Taylor

44:37

as the helpless victim in Ingrid

44:39

as the obsessive, cold blooded stalker.

44:42

But the more we talked about it, I actually

44:44

found myself relating more to the Ingrid

44:47

character. The quote goes

44:49

on and there's a bunch of other questions,

44:51

and he talks quite a bit about developing

44:54

each character and the thought

44:56

that went into it. And so

44:58

they are approaching Ingrid, the

45:01

writers and director, with a

45:04

sense of empathy, like they do

45:06

kind of understand what it

45:09

is to be addicted to social media

45:11

and how that does affect your

45:13

mental health. And so they're not

45:15

necessarily not approaching the

45:18

character with any intentional malice

45:21

or anything like that.

45:24

But the fact remains that Ingrid,

45:28

though it is unidentified, is

45:31

dealing with a mental

45:33

health crisis, and I

45:35

mean not identified, like by specific

45:38

name she's never.

45:39

Right, which which I'm not mad

45:41

about, right, but yeah, something that

45:43

Foster's compulsive behaviors.

45:46

Right, And on top of that,

45:48

she's dealing with grief

45:51

over the loss of her mother,

45:54

and the movie,

45:57

I think is pretty much

45:59

constantly assuming

46:02

that you will or encouraging that the

46:04

audience will be cringing at

46:06

her behavior and laughing at

46:08

her. And so for that to be

46:10

the case, and people might disagree

46:12

with me, but I feel

46:15

like the movie is like constantly like, oh God,

46:17

no, Ingrid, don't do that, not again. Oh

46:19

you're so cringey. Oh, or she's

46:21

doing something that you're laughing at or

46:23

that's supposed to be funny. And

46:25

for that to be true of a character who is

46:28

again dealing with a mental health crisis. That's

46:31

the thing that rubs me the

46:33

wrong way about this movie.

46:36

That makes sense to me, And that was like,

46:38

so what I didn't like about it the first time, And

46:40

I think that that makes a lot of sense. And

46:44

yeah, I'm unclear on exactly what they

46:47

want us to feel about her at certain points because

46:49

I feel like, and maybe this is just grounded in

46:52

Aubrey Plaza's performance, but like I

46:55

want to be on her side, like I want

46:57

her to be okay, and it's

47:00

like scary and sad

47:02

and frustrating to watch her

47:05

not get the help that she

47:07

needs. Yeah again, it just yeah, I felt

47:09

undercooked and under explored

47:12

because we see that she has spent

47:14

some time in inpatient treatment,

47:17

but that doesn't seem to have

47:19

been especially helpful for her, which

47:22

can be very true, but like again,

47:25

it's just like that's there

47:27

and she goes to I

47:29

mean, yeah, if you're having a

47:31

mental health crisis, definitely

47:33

don't move to Los Angeles. It's like

47:36

the worst possible place you could be. Take

47:39

it from me, But

47:42

it's hard because I feel like I can't exactly put it into

47:44

words. I think that that read is so there

47:48

of like it's funny that

47:50

this is happening, but I also felt like going

47:53

back in this time, I

47:55

just felt terribly for

47:57

her. Yeah, and part of why

48:00

it's such an anxiety inducing movie. And

48:02

maybe it's just like where I am now versus where I

48:04

was then, but like watching her

48:06

be around people who don't necessarily

48:09

have bad intentions towards her,

48:11

but they just are not equipped to

48:14

be able to give her what she needs.

48:17

And yeah, I think the mental

48:19

health point that really didn't sit well with me.

48:21

Again, I understand from

48:23

the message cautionary

48:26

message about social media point why

48:28

the character makes a suicide

48:30

attempt, but I really

48:32

don't. That's just a personal

48:35

preference thing. Maybe I just don't like that. I especially

48:37

don't like when that's put on screen.

48:40

That was what gave

48:42

me pause. I feel like you can end the movie

48:45

the same way, maybe

48:47

not, you know, with that same really

48:50

stomach churning impact.

48:53

But I feel like you could end the movie with

48:55

the same like feeling without

48:58

having done that. But that's kind of a personal

49:01

preference. But I just don't like when attempts

49:04

are put on screen. I feel like it's usually

49:06

unnecessary, especially because it's an Oprey

49:09

Plaza movie. A lot of young people are gonna see it, and

49:12

I just don't like it. I wanted to go back

49:14

to original criticism of this movie,

49:16

yeah, because I just wanted your take. I

49:18

really I don't know what to make of it now, especially

49:20

because we were already

49:23

doing movie criticism in twenty seventeen

49:25

when this movie came out. But I feel like it was very

49:28

different.

49:28

We were hashtag babies back.

49:31

Then, tag podcasting

49:33

toddlers, but it was

49:35

an interesting, like, look at what the criticism

49:37

of this time was like. So this is

49:39

from a Miss magazine piece from

49:41

when the movie came out in twenty seventeen. While

49:44

the film has been heralded as a timely warning

49:46

against social media, this so called warning

49:49

is only possible because of the filmmaker's representation

49:51

of Ingrid as unstable, obsessive,

49:54

and quote unquote hysterical depictions,

49:56

which have historically all been used to devalue

49:58

and control women. Taking a cue

50:00

from Single White Female, the film relies on the

50:03

trope that women's friendships are toxic and

50:05

unstable, Taking another from films

50:07

like Swim Fan and Black Swan, it predicates

50:09

its entire plot on the tired notion that women

50:12

are jealous, irrational, and obsessive

50:14

by nature. The film's investment in

50:16

these depictions paints mental illness into

50:18

an inherently female danger. Indeed,

50:21

it seems that Ingrid is a stark and

50:23

visual warning about the mentally ill woman

50:25

we should make sure to never become. As

50:28

Sarah Kahn writes in a piece that no

50:31

longer exists on the Internet, the

50:33

film's unresolved ending is particularly harmful.

50:36

In that quote, it only reinforces the incorrect

50:38

and ignorant narrative that people only talk

50:40

openly about mental illness to seek attention

50:43

unquote. I think this

50:45

is interesting. I don't totally agree with it now,

50:47

honestly, but I do I

50:49

think agree with that last part a little

50:51

bit. Again. I think that, like from

50:54

the year twenty twenty four, I cannot

50:56

comfortably say that everyone

50:58

on the internet discussed mental health is

51:01

doing so in great faith.

51:03

I feel like that is not necessarily

51:05

true. However, the

51:07

majority are, I think,

51:10

and I feel like if

51:12

this movie wants to make

51:14

this point, we should maybe see other

51:17

examples of how people are good

51:19

faith engaging.

51:20

Yeah.

51:21

See, But now saying that, I'm like, do

51:23

you feel that Ingrid made this attempt

51:26

for attention? I sort of didn't

51:28

read it that way. I didn't

51:30

well, I don't know. I mean, like,

51:33

maybe that's me being naive and

51:35

like I don't see the game of like seven

51:38

thousand d chests she was playing. But I

51:40

guess I read that attempt as sincere, so

51:42

that kind of negates that point

51:45

for me. I don't know. I do think that it would have

51:47

been helpful to clarify whatever

51:50

they were trying to say around mental health to

51:52

have another character navigating,

51:55

if not the same issue, because

51:58

you know, everyone has their own mental

52:00

health journey to go on, right, but navigating

52:03

those same issues

52:05

in a different way from Ingrid.

52:08

Right, I do think

52:11

it was not like an attention

52:14

seeking attempt.

52:16

I didn't think so either.

52:17

Yeah, I do think that she

52:20

was legitimately attempting suicide.

52:23

And what she says during that video

52:26

seems I mean, it's devastating

52:29

because she's acknowledging how

52:31

her life has been a lie and

52:34

how she feels so lonely and

52:36

she feels like a loser and pathetic

52:39

and all of these things.

52:40

She misses her mom and like,

52:43

see now, I'm like, but now this movie

52:45

review doesn't believe women.

52:48

I'm confused. I'm

52:51

confused. Yeah, I didn't read that. I mean,

52:53

and listeners like, obviously open

52:55

season on if you did read it that way. But

52:58

yeah, it felt like if that

53:00

was the intended read of the movie, then yeah,

53:03

Ingrid is being shown as essentially

53:05

a super villain. But I guess

53:07

I just didn't. Yeah, I didn't read it that way.

53:10

My read is that she was

53:13

intending to die by suicide,

53:16

that her words in

53:18

the suicide note video were

53:21

earnest, but The point is

53:24

that she will

53:27

fall back into the same cycle

53:30

because once she survives this

53:33

attempt and learns that she has

53:36

a following now that people are

53:38

reaching out to her, and chances

53:41

are she'll never meet any of these people and not

53:44

actually form any lasting

53:46

or meaningful connections with any of them. But

53:49

she's addicted to this internet

53:52

validation, and it

53:54

seems as though, because of like the grin

53:56

on her face when she's seeing all

53:58

of these expressions of

54:01

love and support from people commenting

54:03

on her Instagram, that she

54:07

again will have learned nothing

54:09

and will fall back into

54:11

the same cycle what I

54:14

wish would have happened.

54:17

Maybe I'm talking through this in real time,

54:19

but like we see her

54:22

being hospitalized in the beginning

54:24

of the movie, but it's in like montage,

54:27

right, and we don't get

54:30

a whole lot of sense of

54:33

what is going on, and like is

54:35

the system failing her? Like is the healthcare

54:37

system the thing that's right?

54:39

And it kind of seems I guess again,

54:41

that was like the conclusion that I jumped

54:44

to, but we're not given that explicit reason.

54:46

Right, because she makes a comment of I

54:50

know something is wrong with me, but I

54:52

don't know how to fix it, I don't know how

54:54

to change, and

54:57

I'm curious, like what

54:59

was the care like that she did receive

55:02

in this hospital?

55:03

Right, right, because it's like it's totally conceivable

55:06

to get bad mental

55:08

health treatment, absolute surely, but

55:10

it's yeah, I agree like that it's

55:14

important I think to yeah, demonstrate

55:16

like why it didn't

55:19

quite work. Otherwise I feel like it is a viable

55:21

read for it to be like, you know, in patient

55:23

treatment doesn't work, which is obviously not true.

55:25

Right Yeah. Again, it's just like, because

55:28

it's like this satirey feel, it sometimes

55:30

feels like there's too broad of a brush

55:33

with certain issues. But anyways,

55:36

I just wanted to share that because I thought it was interesting.

55:38

I'm like, I feel like I would have really wholeheartedly

55:41

agreed with that criticism

55:43

at the time, and you

55:45

know, time keeps moving,

55:48

and it's just interesting because I

55:50

feel like, yeah, I was able to have

55:52

a little bit more of a generous read of this movie

55:55

than I did six or seven

55:57

years ago. I do want to say that

55:59

Elizabeth said joined Instagram

56:01

right after this movie came out. There

56:04

is a funny, kind of iconic her

56:06

kind of fucked up but kind of iconic. This

56:08

is from the Cut. In twenty seventeen, Elizabeth

56:11

Olsen recently joined Instagram for the first time.

56:14

She learned the ropes while playing an Instagram influencer

56:16

in her upcoming film Ingrid Goes West,

56:19

But in an interview with The La Times, she reveals

56:21

that her newfound social media savvy isn't

56:23

simply because she needed to share photos of her

56:25

breakfast with the world. She's just in it

56:27

for the cash, so she said, it's so funny

56:29

that people, this is Elizabeth Olsen speaking, It's

56:32

so funny that people like to pretend that there may

56:34

be or maybe not getting paid to post something

56:36

financially, it's a brilliant opportunity. Like

56:38

I'd really love to be a brand ambassador. I'd

56:40

love to do a campaign. I think sometimes

56:42

working with brands or different cosmetic companies

56:45

that can help people recognize your face and then they go

56:47

see your movie. I was only hurting my opportunities

56:49

by not participating, which, honestly

56:51

I think that that is Like, even if you don't agree

56:53

with it, I appreciate that she's just being honest about

56:55

it because I feel like that's the fault that

56:57

the movie is trying to criticize, is that

57:00

influencers and this happened. I mean, it's worse now,

57:03

even though there are disclosure

57:05

laws in place that there didn't used to be

57:08

about and saying when you're doing spawn

57:10

versus when you're not. There are some influencers

57:13

that like their whole account is

57:15

spawn. You're like, how do we even get

57:17

interested in you in the first place? Like

57:20

you're just selling shit. It's weird.

57:22

Yeah, I've

57:24

never quite understood that, but

57:27

I do find it interesting that the

57:30

way Taylor describes

57:32

herself and her job, because ingrid

57:35

very blazonly, is like, what do you guys do for

57:37

money? You know, on the first night that

57:40

she meets them. But people should be more transparent,

57:43

I think about their income and how they get

57:45

it. But anyway, yeah, she's like, what do you do for

57:47

money? And Taylor's like, oh, I'm a

57:49

photographer right right, And

57:51

then we find out that she's like,

57:53

well, you know, it's not as glamorous,

57:55

is it seems? Sometimes

57:58

brands pay me to like post

58:00

photos on the thing. And so she's basically

58:02

like she's describing being an

58:04

influencer in very

58:07

creative ways because

58:10

we don't ever see her with a camera

58:12

any other camera besides her iPhone

58:16

camera, she's not doing the type

58:18

of photography that.

58:20

Yeah, it feels very like prior.

58:22

I think that those disclosure laws they

58:24

might have existed by the time this movie came out,

58:26

but maybe not when it was written. I forget

58:28

exactly when, but yeah, like it almost

58:31

feels like I honestly used to feel this way when I would

58:33

tell people that I hosted a podcast

58:35

for a living, I actually would not say that, and I

58:37

was actively like, oh, this is

58:39

a career that is still like not quite

58:41

a thing, and I'm kind of embarrassed

58:43

to say I have a job that I'm not sure

58:46

is considered to be real or you.

58:48

Know, huh.

58:49

And it feels like that's kind

58:52

of what Taylor's doing with an influencer, Like she's

58:54

trying to make it sound like a

58:56

respected job where influencer

59:00

clearly at the time this was written or

59:02

filmed or I don't know what the production timeline

59:04

was, wasn't considered a

59:06

job, whereas now, like most

59:09

influencers are pretty straightforward

59:11

about what it is they're doing because

59:14

it's considered a legitimate

59:16

job. I mean the same as podcasting,

59:18

Like it's considered a legitimate job now, and

59:20

so people are just like, yeah, this is my job, but

59:23

she's like, oh well, it's

59:26

not what it seems like. And also like, clearly

59:28

at this time she didn't have to disclose

59:30

anything, which is scary, and that like

59:33

whether the influencers doing this were

59:37

especially cognizant of this or not, because

59:39

I do think that there's like a lot of naivete around

59:41

social media usage at this time. They're

59:44

like, yeah, selling you a fake, it's advertising,

59:46

it's lying, it's lying, it's making stuff

59:48

up.

59:49

And we see her lying about other stuff

59:51

such as like she never read

59:53

the books she's claiming to have read.

59:55

She loved that, claims that her

59:58

husband is a very the popular artist,

1:00:01

and we find out that the only sale he's ever

1:00:03

made is that one two ingrid

1:00:06

And basically we just see every

1:00:08

character lying or

1:00:10

manipulating or thinking

1:00:12

that the Jewel Schumacher Batman movies

1:00:15

are good.

1:00:17

Okay, what the greatest sin of

1:00:19

all? I loved Joel

1:00:21

Schumacher. I was very surprised to hear

1:00:23

a Jewel Like, you just don't expect to hear

1:00:26

his full name spoken in a movie.

1:00:28

You don't.

1:00:29

But yeah, I mean I thought this movie did

1:00:31

a better job than I remembered both

1:00:34

clearly pointing to the fact that the kind

1:00:36

of influencing that Taylor is doing is

1:00:39

lying. But there

1:00:42

is like a gradient of like it

1:00:44

doesn't make her the world's

1:00:47

worst person, but it

1:00:49

doesn't. I feel like there was at least some

1:00:51

fairness with how

1:00:54

that was shown, Like she

1:00:56

wasn't completely demonized, but she wasn't

1:00:59

made out to be like, oh, I'm just a girl, I

1:01:01

don't know what I'm doing, Like she does know what she's doing,

1:01:03

yeah, and she seems a little ashamed of it, but

1:01:05

not enough to not do it right.

1:01:09

There is more nuance to I

1:01:11

would say pretty much every character we

1:01:14

get to know to

1:01:16

some extent, there's more nuance

1:01:19

to them than, again,

1:01:21

I would have expected from

1:01:24

filmmakers who are men writing

1:01:26

about women. I'm not saying they

1:01:28

did.

1:01:28

An amazing job, but they did something.

1:01:31

There's something, and there's more nuance there

1:01:33

because again, I think it would have been very easy

1:01:36

and the kind of

1:01:38

default for men

1:01:40

to write female

1:01:43

characters and female influencers

1:01:45

and people who are susceptible

1:01:47

to influencers in a way

1:01:49

more judgy way. But

1:01:52

I am curious as to why

1:01:56

these men, and again I'm

1:01:58

talking about director Matt

1:02:00

Spicer and his co writer

1:02:02

on the script, David Branson Smith, why

1:02:05

they chose women

1:02:07

as the main characters when they could

1:02:10

better speak to the experience of

1:02:12

men being affected by social media because

1:02:15

they are men affected by

1:02:17

social media, as they say

1:02:19

in that interview.

1:02:20

Which is interesting because we like we do

1:02:23

get a feel for that. Yeah, I don't

1:02:25

know. I mean, like, I don't want to be like people

1:02:27

could only write their own experience. Yeah, but I

1:02:29

would just be curious to know, and I

1:02:31

would also at a note and I wasn't able to really find

1:02:34

anything on this to like to

1:02:36

what extent they spoke to women

1:02:38

about their experiences on social media

1:02:41

in building out these characters, because that feels like

1:02:43

it would be a very important

1:02:45

component of building out this relationship. Because

1:02:47

I don't really agree with the

1:02:50

Miss magazine criticism that sort of indicates

1:02:52

that, like Taylor in Ingrid's

1:02:55

Dynamic, is indicative that

1:02:57

these writers think that all women's French

1:03:00

are dysfunctional and toxic. Like,

1:03:02

I think that that's kind of an

1:03:04

overstatement. I feel like we understand

1:03:07

why this friendship isn't working. It's because

1:03:10

they're both lying and

1:03:13

one to a wild

1:03:15

degree. Yeah, and that

1:03:18

you know one is in mental health crisis

1:03:20

and the other is not equipped

1:03:22

to handle that, and Taylor is like a

1:03:24

people pleaser to the extent that it's dishonest,

1:03:27

and like, I feel like you're given maybe

1:03:31

my brain is broken. It didn't feel especially gendered,

1:03:33

because you do get

1:03:35

a taste of like how social media

1:03:38

affects men, but not as I

1:03:40

don't know, Like, I think that the shared quality

1:03:42

across the cast is

1:03:45

that everyone is in fake

1:03:47

it till you make it mode, which

1:03:49

is I think just how LA characters

1:03:52

are very frequently written. But

1:03:54

like Dan Pinto is

1:03:57

a fake screenwriter, and

1:04:00

Taylor is a fake photographer,

1:04:03

and Wyatt Russell is a fake artist,

1:04:06

and you know, Billy Magdison is

1:04:08

a fake I don't

1:04:10

even know.

1:04:11

He's like a real con artist,

1:04:14

and he's very racist. We

1:04:16

should point.

1:04:16

Out, yes, there is a horrific

1:04:19

racist joke in this that clearly

1:04:22

turns you on this character. I don't think it

1:04:24

was necessary at all to

1:04:26

turn us on this character. And it also

1:04:29

makes it clear that Taylor is okay with

1:04:31

this totally in a room full

1:04:33

of white people, She's very okay with laughing

1:04:36

at an extremely racist joke. And

1:04:39

I think that the only person in the room who really

1:04:41

says something is her.

1:04:42

Husband, her husband Ezra.

1:04:44

Yes, so a single point

1:04:46

for him there, But he also like I

1:04:49

don't know what did you make of him, because I think

1:04:51

he definitely sucks. He's a pretentious

1:04:53

asshole, yes, right, And he seems

1:04:55

very resentful towards

1:04:59

Taylor for the way

1:05:01

that she's making money.

1:05:04

For sure, And it's not

1:05:06

clear if he is

1:05:09

like intimidated by her

1:05:11

success the way a lot of men

1:05:14

in relationships with women who are like

1:05:16

making more money than them is

1:05:19

very threatening to those men. It's not

1:05:21

clear if he's feeling that or if he's just

1:05:23

like on his high horse

1:05:26

about you know, self promotion

1:05:29

and being super online, because those

1:05:31

things are clear, but we don't know if

1:05:33

there's like an underlying like misogyny

1:05:35

thing happening or.

1:05:37

I guess it kind of seems to me like

1:05:39

there definitely was like, yeah,

1:05:42

he's like the kind of person that sucks. Even when he's

1:05:44

saying the right thing, you just feel like

1:05:46

he's saying the right thing for the wrong reason, which

1:05:48

I guess a lot of people in this movie are true,

1:05:51

and that is a very common internet

1:05:53

behavior, right, But like, yeah, he's acting

1:05:55

like he's too good, like he's trying to have

1:05:57

everything both ways and resenting no matter

1:06:00

what the situation is. He resents Taylor as

1:06:02

a result, And I don't even like Taylor, but

1:06:04

I feel like he is an asshole because

1:06:07

he's like, oh, self promotion is so gross,

1:06:09

blah blah blah, But why

1:06:11

aren't I making money as an artist? Like

1:06:14

he just wants everything to be handed

1:06:17

to him because he is

1:06:19

a man, and look at my art, and everyone's

1:06:21

a poser and a faker except for

1:06:23

me. And meanwhile,

1:06:26

you know his wife is paying all the bills because

1:06:29

she is working, but

1:06:31

he doesn't consider what she does. I mean,

1:06:33

this is maybe me getting defense, but like he

1:06:35

doesn't consider what she does real even though

1:06:38

what she's doing is funding

1:06:40

his lifestyle. So right,

1:06:43

he can shut up or like not

1:06:45

be in this relationship if you're not comfortable

1:06:48

with that, But you can't just like be angry

1:06:51

and passively benefit from it all

1:06:53

the time.

1:06:54

True. Also, and I'm not criticizing

1:06:57

all like upcycled art

1:06:59

because because I think some of it is very very cool, but.

1:07:02

His art is it's

1:07:04

right up there with Magic Mike.

1:07:06

It's bad, Magic

1:07:10

BIG's awful. Furniture, Yeah,

1:07:12

all that Ezra is doing is

1:07:14

taking existing

1:07:17

paintings that he bought from thrift

1:07:19

stores and then painting

1:07:21

text on them that says like hashtag

1:07:23

blessed or hashtag squad goals

1:07:26

or any of those.

1:07:27

Which was a thing like I remember

1:07:29

that shit, and like

1:07:31

they were right to make fun of it. It was ridiculous.

1:07:34

Yeah, but yeah, he's a poser. He's a

1:07:36

faker for sure, like the worst

1:07:39

kind of poser, where his whole personality

1:07:41

is predicated on the fact that he's definitely

1:07:43

not a poster, which is like the worst,

1:07:46

the worst kind of person.

1:07:48

The movie is recognizing the irony

1:07:50

of him being like, I'm a real artist.

1:07:53

My art speaks for itself. I do

1:07:56

art. And then you see his art and

1:07:58

it's something that someone else made and then

1:08:01

he just painted some letters

1:08:03

on it. It's like, Okay, are

1:08:05

you good at art? Question

1:08:08

mark.

1:08:09

I do think that, like, at very least, like his character,

1:08:11

because I did not remember. It's a very

1:08:13

very racist joke about virtually

1:08:15

any Asian person because it is that vague

1:08:18

and cruel, and I

1:08:21

still don't think it was necessary

1:08:23

because it does happen. I'm glad that his

1:08:25

character calls it out, said something

1:08:28

Yeah, yeah, and I understand. I mean, like, I

1:08:30

think he's an interesting character to have there.

1:08:32

It's like I recognize the type of person

1:08:35

and it sort of contributes to like showing

1:08:37

what And this is like kind of a mealy

1:08:40

mouthed point that we've seen made

1:08:42

in a lot of things with like social

1:08:44

media is not real. But

1:08:47

that's the point this movie is trying to make to some extent,

1:08:50

And their marriage dynamic I think is like

1:08:52

pretty interesting and unique,

1:08:55

and like, even though I don't love

1:08:57

Taylor as a character and

1:09:00

her weird Joshua Tree gentrification

1:09:03

hotel sounds awful, her

1:09:06

husband is also sexist,

1:09:08

so there's that. Her

1:09:11

brother, I feel like, is character

1:09:13

that didn't really work for

1:09:15

me. He felt too cartoonish,

1:09:18

I don't know. And also they

1:09:20

were like, well he was struggling

1:09:23

with or not dealing with his

1:09:25

addiction problems, which

1:09:28

is referenced several times, but really

1:09:30

only seems to be there to add

1:09:33

another way in which

1:09:35

Taylor is being dishonest about her life

1:09:38

or in denial about her life.

1:09:40

But it's just like he sort of became like a plot

1:09:42

device at some point where he's like

1:09:44

he blackmails Ingrid and he gets

1:09:47

kidd like all the high jinxy stuff is sort

1:09:49

of with his character, and

1:09:51

he's just my least favorite character. I

1:09:54

don't like him. That's my feminist criticism.

1:09:56

I don't like him.

1:09:58

Wow hashtag genius once again,

1:10:00

Yeah, thank you. He is quite cartoony,

1:10:03

but I also feel like

1:10:06

people like him exist, so

1:10:08

for sure, I DeKay, but I

1:10:11

just don't like him. I think the

1:10:13

last thing I have to say about

1:10:15

this movie, and it kind of goes back to the

1:10:18

article you were referencing

1:10:20

earlier about all of these examples of movies

1:10:22

that center female friendship. But it's like a

1:10:25

toxic stockery, obsessive

1:10:28

kind of thing. And it's not

1:10:30

that I think that all friendships

1:10:33

between or among women in

1:10:35

movies are portrayed that way, because

1:10:37

obviously there are many examples that aren't.

1:10:40

But the article does cite several movies

1:10:43

that do show that dynamic,

1:10:46

such as Swim Fan.

1:10:48

I saw that movie, but I can't

1:10:51

remember much about it. I have not

1:10:53

seen it Swim Fan, and

1:10:55

then Single White Female,

1:10:57

which we covered many many years ago the

1:11:00

show. But this movie

1:11:03

wouldn't feel like, Wow,

1:11:05

yet another installment in this

1:11:07

type of friendship dynamic

1:11:10

between women. If

1:11:12

there were just more movies about

1:11:14

friendship among women, because yeah,

1:11:17

the director was citing

1:11:20

other movies that inspired

1:11:23

him. One of them was Single White

1:11:25

Female. But he also references The

1:11:28

Talented Mister Ripley and The

1:11:30

King of Comedy, which, Jamie, have you

1:11:32

seen that movie?

1:11:33

I have not seen it.

1:11:34

Now I've seen it a couple times. It's another

1:11:36

very very stressful movie. Robert

1:11:39

de Niro plays an aspiring comedian

1:11:41

who's trying to get on like

1:11:44

a late night talk show, like

1:11:46

a Jimmy Carson kind of thing. Jimmy

1:11:48

Carson, is that just Johnny Johnny Carson.

1:11:51

I was like that, Well, we're so young, We're

1:11:53

so young. Oh is this the movie that,

1:11:55

like Todd Phillips Joker is kind of ripping

1:11:57

off right?

1:11:58

Yes?

1:11:58

Okay, yeah, So he's a sessed with

1:12:01

this talk show host and he's trying to

1:12:03

get like a set to do

1:12:05

stand up on a late night show

1:12:08

and things go horribly wrong. So there's

1:12:10

like a few movies referenced, like

1:12:13

King of Comedy and Talented Mister Ripley

1:12:15

that the filmmakers of Ingrid

1:12:17

Goes West were pulling from

1:12:19

that, you know, feature men. But

1:12:22

because every other fucking movie in the world

1:12:24

is about men. It doesn't feel like, oh,

1:12:27

every movie that comes out is about

1:12:29

men being obsessed and scary

1:12:32

and violent.

1:12:33

Right, I agree with you. I mean, maybe it's

1:12:35

being older. Maybe it's just the way that the

1:12:37

Internet has continued to evolve where

1:12:40

I feel like I did have the information

1:12:42

I needed. Would I have liked

1:12:44

to see Taylor have an actual

1:12:46

friend, sure, sure, like

1:12:49

and see what does a functional friendship

1:12:51

work like for her? But again, like across

1:12:53

gender, it doesn't seem like really

1:12:56

anyone in this movie is capable,

1:12:58

except maybe Dan Pinto.

1:13:00

I will say, like, you know, weird

1:13:02

guy, and I don't really understand

1:13:04

why he's putting up with the

1:13:06

consequences of being with Ingrid to the extent

1:13:09

that he is, but I do appreciate

1:13:11

that, like he wants

1:13:13

to know her, sure, and that

1:13:15

is nice to see. And I feel like that's another way

1:13:17

in which this movie does show

1:13:20

that it is not openly contemptuous

1:13:23

of Ingrid. And I understand

1:13:25

why she is definitely

1:13:27

starting by manipulating him so she doesn't get evicted,

1:13:30

but I get why she ends up wanting

1:13:32

to be with him more, even though it's like this complicated,

1:13:35

like he is a means to an end to her as

1:13:37

far as access to a car, access to

1:13:39

housing, and access to enabling

1:13:42

this lie. But also she

1:13:44

needs someone to talk to about grief desperately,

1:13:48

and he can relate with her about

1:13:50

that. And I thought that that scene was I kind of wish that

1:13:52

there was a little more done with that relationship

1:13:54

to develop it, because normally I'm like, I

1:13:57

don't need the boyfriend's side plot. I think it is kind

1:13:59

of interesting here, but yeah,

1:14:02

it kind of tapers off, and then the way at the end,

1:14:04

I feel bad for Dan Pinto. I'm like, get out

1:14:06

of there. Dant like, no, we need to

1:14:08

get Ingrid into good stable

1:14:12

care so that she can recover, and

1:14:14

we need Dan Pinto to like, I

1:14:16

don't know, like give up the ghosts and move

1:14:18

on. Well.

1:14:20

Yeah, the thing is every character

1:14:22

in this movie is characterized as someone

1:14:24

who is like not very capable

1:14:27

of healthy human relationships,

1:14:29

because Dan Pinto's thing is he's

1:14:31

a pushover who like lets

1:14:33

people walk all over him, and he's manipulated

1:14:37

by Ingrid constantly.

1:14:39

And there's plenty of Dan Pinto's in the world,

1:14:41

I know.

1:14:42

And then that scene where Ingrid

1:14:45

and Dan Pinto are talking

1:14:47

about losing their parents.

1:14:52

I almost read that as she

1:14:55

seized an opportunity to yeah,

1:14:58

because she's again constantly trying

1:15:00

to endear people to her.

1:15:03

Yeah, and he's opening up and talking about

1:15:06

this grief and you know, he was orphaned

1:15:08

as a child and that's why he's so attached

1:15:11

to Batman and you know, really laying

1:15:13

it all out there, and rather than being

1:15:15

like she says a couple things

1:15:17

about losing her mom to him,

1:15:20

but to me, it was she

1:15:22

sees this as an opportunity to basically

1:15:25

further manipulate him into dating

1:15:27

her so that she can continue using him,

1:15:29

because like, she doesn't really continue

1:15:32

the conversation, she just kind of surprise

1:15:34

kisses him. Really she does, and

1:15:37

then they have Batman catwoman

1:15:40

sex.

1:15:41

So yes, I agree with you. Maybe

1:15:44

i'm five D chessing because I'm

1:15:46

like, but I also feel

1:15:48

like it doesn't seem like she is

1:15:50

at a stage in her

1:15:53

grieving where she It

1:15:55

made me sad to see this opportunity

1:15:58

for her to genuinely connect with some one,

1:16:01

but she's so fixated on this

1:16:03

other thing that is not real

1:16:06

that she's just

1:16:08

fumbling it because she's not able

1:16:10

to you know, and not that

1:16:13

she has to connect with this

1:16:15

specific person, but like it's

1:16:17

frustrating and frustrating in a way that didn't

1:16:19

feel uncharitable to her. But

1:16:22

I've been in those I think everyone's been

1:16:24

in those positions where you're so fixated

1:16:27

on this other thing that you think is going to

1:16:29

make you happy that something or

1:16:31

someone who could actually provide

1:16:34

a genuine connection passes you by

1:16:36

because you just like are not in a place where

1:16:38

you can see it. And especially

1:16:40

because she's an act of mental health crisis.

1:16:42

I feel awful for Dan Pinto, who seems

1:16:45

to genuinely want a relationship

1:16:47

with her, even though that seems

1:16:49

like it's connected to a lot of his issues. Yeah,

1:16:53

but that she has

1:16:55

this opportunity right in front of her to genuinely

1:16:57

connect with someone and can't see

1:16:59

it for what it is, and that is really

1:17:01

sad to me. I feel bad for her. This

1:17:04

movie kind of fumbles other

1:17:06

mental illnesses in the pursuit of

1:17:08

doing this, but like very clearly

1:17:11

demonstrates that social media is an

1:17:13

addiction, and that

1:17:16

it is an addiction that people

1:17:18

don't understand, that is

1:17:20

exacerbated by any other number of factors,

1:17:23

and which for her seems like some sort of obsessive

1:17:26

tendency and grief

1:17:30

and depression, and like I

1:17:32

probably talked about this on the show before, but when I

1:17:34

was probably around this time, it was

1:17:36

maybe a little sooner, like twenty sixteen, but

1:17:39

I had and have OCD

1:17:41

and it was getting so bad with specific

1:17:44

relation to social media

1:17:47

that I was luckily

1:17:49

able to find a therapist

1:17:52

who is willing to really scale

1:17:54

his prices so that I could go into

1:17:56

exposure therapy for social

1:17:59

media, which the time I didn't really

1:18:01

talk about because it is no one's business, and

1:18:03

also I was embarrassed by it because

1:18:05

it didn't sound like a thing that existed.

1:18:08

But literally what the sessions were were

1:18:11

I would go on Twitter with my

1:18:13

therapist and we would scroll through

1:18:16

and we would go through, like, well, what does this bring

1:18:18

up for you? What does this bring up for you? And I

1:18:20

was in such a bad place OCD

1:18:23

wise that everything

1:18:25

was an active threat and

1:18:29

I was so spun into anxiety

1:18:32

by looking at these things and also could

1:18:34

not, for the life of me stop and

1:18:37

it took I mean, we did this

1:18:40

for a couple of months until I couldn't

1:18:42

afford it anymore. We did it, and

1:18:44

it really did help, and it did

1:18:46

I mean, I don't think anyone has

1:18:48

a healthy relationship to social media, but it

1:18:51

certainly did turn a corner for me,

1:18:54

and then maybe some backsliding during the pandemic

1:18:57

who among us. I mean, I'm

1:19:00

like, maybe I should talk about this on the other show,

1:19:02

but like I had such a bad relationship with social

1:19:04

media that it was like actively, you

1:19:07

know, not to the extent that Ingrid.

1:19:10

Ingrid is in a pretty extreme circumstance, but like,

1:19:12

I'm glad to know that both Aubrey Plaza

1:19:15

and the writer directors like empathize

1:19:17

with her because I think everyone has had some

1:19:19

experience like this, and then mine like going

1:19:22

back, I'm like, maybe I didn't like it the first time I saw

1:19:24

it because I didn't like the parts of myself

1:19:27

that I saw in her, because it's really

1:19:29

uncomfortable, and also just to

1:19:31

see it in a time where you

1:19:33

know, now, I still don't think that there's really a lot

1:19:35

of practical treatment.

1:19:37

And I feel like, you know, if you're having a hard time with your relationship

1:19:40

with social media, most people will be like shut up,

1:19:42

touch grass and like very unhelpful.

1:19:46

Ugh, And I just I can't get over like people are

1:19:48

saying touch grass to you on the internet, like,

1:19:50

shut up, You're

1:19:52

just as bad and maybe worse.

1:19:55

But I guess that's my last thing I have to say about

1:19:57

this movie. It was interesting to revisit it because

1:19:59

I think I is ashamed and

1:20:01

uncomfortable of the parts

1:20:03

of me that I saw in Ingrid,

1:20:06

and also didn't like how hopeless

1:20:08

the end was, because I saw

1:20:10

myself in this character and to see her

1:20:13

so clearly about

1:20:15

to be sucked into the same

1:20:18

cycle again is devastating.

1:20:21

I will say, for anyone who's struggling

1:20:23

with this or has in the past, there are

1:20:26

ways to improve it, a lot

1:20:28

of it. I mean again, like if I hadn't met I literally

1:20:30

met this therapist in the hospital.

1:20:33

It was like shortly before the podcast started. This would

1:20:35

have been in June twenty sixteen, when all this was

1:20:37

happening. But like, you know, if I

1:20:39

hadn't met a psychiatrist in the

1:20:42

hospital, where I also could not afford

1:20:44

in or outpatient treatment, this hospital

1:20:46

psychologist let me just sleep

1:20:49

in the er overnight because I was

1:20:51

so worked up, and he

1:20:54

really generously offered to give

1:20:57

me care that I would not have

1:20:59

had access to otherwise. And it did

1:21:01

genuinely change, you

1:21:04

know, not completely fix. I don't know that it's

1:21:06

something that can completely be fixed,

1:21:08

but improved my relationships.

1:21:10

So there are ways.

1:21:12

Unfortunately they're almost always,

1:21:14

especially if you live in the US,

1:21:17

there's significant barriers, but there's Yeah,

1:21:19

there are ways. So if

1:21:21

you're struggling, babe, you

1:21:24

could be okay. You co'd be okay, Jamie,

1:21:26

thank you for sharing that. I love

1:21:28

to share.

1:21:31

It's healthy to share

1:21:34

and demonstrates the broken

1:21:37

healthcare system in this

1:21:40

country, because care that

1:21:42

is helpful and life

1:21:45

saving shouldn't be unaffordable.

1:21:49

Jamie, is there anything else you want

1:21:52

to talk about with this movie?

1:21:54

I don't really think so. I feel

1:21:57

bad, but that's what this movie wants me to

1:21:59

do. So it's good.

1:22:01

Right, It's effective in what it's set out to

1:22:03

do. Yes, it does pass

1:22:06

the Bechdel test quite a bit.

1:22:08

Yes, many times over. Yeah,

1:22:11

it's women having complicated

1:22:14

feelings about how they perceive each other.

1:22:16

Yeah, which I am always

1:22:20

especially when there's even an iota of thought

1:22:22

put into it. I'm always interested in

1:22:25

movies about how women view other

1:22:27

women or how they're conditioned or whatever,

1:22:29

because it's like, it's very valid, and I think this movie

1:22:32

gets across that misogyny is

1:22:34

so prominent among men. Wow, amazing

1:22:37

observation, Jamie hashtag genius,

1:22:39

thank you. But just seeing how people

1:22:42

of marginalized genders have internalized

1:22:46

and project at others. It's very

1:22:48

common and I feel like it is hard to

1:22:52

write clearly, and this

1:22:54

movie is touch and go on it. But I think that that is

1:22:56

like a worthwhile thing to

1:22:58

continue exploring for sure.

1:23:00

Yeah, as far as our nipple scale goes

1:23:03

zero to five nipples rating

1:23:05

the movie based on examining

1:23:07

it through an intersectional feminist lens.

1:23:10

I think this movie is attempting to comment

1:23:13

on interesting things,

1:23:16

things that are pretty complicated

1:23:18

and that I feel like society

1:23:21

and medical science still

1:23:24

doesn't know that much about. And

1:23:26

because the filmmakers did

1:23:28

not approach this with the intention of

1:23:32

wanting to cast

1:23:34

a lot of judgment on a

1:23:37

tendency to be influenced

1:23:39

by influencers, they,

1:23:42

as they describe it, were empathetic

1:23:45

toward the ingrid character

1:23:47

and they related to her and they were like, we also

1:23:49

feel bad when we look at Instagram.

1:23:52

And again, there is more nuance to a

1:23:55

lot of the characters than

1:23:58

I guess I've been conditioned to expect

1:24:00

because so many movies

1:24:03

made by men are pretty

1:24:06

relentless, especially when it comes to characters

1:24:10

who are women, and casting

1:24:12

a lot of judgment on them

1:24:15

for things, again, like things

1:24:18

that men tend to reinforce.

1:24:20

I'm always reminded of, like the

1:24:23

example of when men

1:24:25

will be like, oh, why

1:24:27

are you taking so long to get ready?

1:24:30

Like they'll like be rate their

1:24:32

girlfriend or whatever for taking

1:24:34

so long to get ready, and it's like, I don't know, maybe

1:24:36

it's because if a woman doesn't

1:24:39

put on makeup and style

1:24:41

their hair meticulously and shave off

1:24:43

all of their body hair and wear certain

1:24:45

clothes and all of this stuff, you'll

1:24:47

think that she's disgusting.

1:24:49

Go figure.

1:24:51

Yeah, So I

1:24:53

appreciate that the movie isn't casting that

1:24:56

level of judgment on this, but the

1:24:58

way that it's representing mental

1:25:01

health and someone who's experiencing

1:25:03

a mental health crisis, I wish

1:25:05

it had been handled better, slash

1:25:08

differently. And I would have liked

1:25:10

to see this premise

1:25:13

written and directed by women because

1:25:16

I think it would have been handled a

1:25:18

lot differently.

1:25:19

Agree.

1:25:19

Yeah, So with that in mind, I don't know, this

1:25:23

is one of those movies that, like does the nipple scale

1:25:25

even a plot like it's

1:25:27

challenging it's complicated.

1:25:29

I mean, it's hard to do the nipple scale

1:25:32

with satire.

1:25:33

Yes, so maybe

1:25:35

I'll just do a split down the middle because

1:25:37

I don't know what else to do. And also,

1:25:40

even though this is the most important metric

1:25:42

of all time, it also doesn't matter.

1:25:45

So two and a half nipples,

1:25:47

and I'll give

1:25:50

one to roth Coo the Dog, I'll

1:25:53

give one to Dan Pinto's

1:25:56

Batman Forever Soundtrack

1:25:58

CD, and I'll

1:26:01

give my half nipple to

1:26:06

the lamp that cost twelve hundred

1:26:08

dollars.

1:26:11

I'm gonna go three. I'll

1:26:13

go three on this one. Yeah, this movie

1:26:15

is imperfect, but better than I

1:26:18

remembered. And I feel maybe

1:26:20

I'm giving it more credit because I feel

1:26:22

like I went on a personal journey and

1:26:24

like was in conversation with past

1:26:27

Jamie by watching this movie. But I

1:26:29

like what it's trying to do. I don't think that it's

1:26:31

doing it successfully, but I think it's doing it

1:26:33

better than I've seen so far, which speaks

1:26:35

to your point is that there is

1:26:38

a need for a good movie

1:26:41

about social media that is

1:26:44

driven by really anyone

1:26:46

but white guys, and I think

1:26:48

it works in the thriller format. I

1:26:50

mean there's so many different ways to talk about it. But

1:26:52

I think that there is like an even better

1:26:55

social media satire out there TVD.

1:26:58

But for what we have, I think that this movie it's

1:27:00

just way better than I remembered it, and it

1:27:02

made me think in ways I wasn't

1:27:05

expecting to. I do think that, Yeah, mainly

1:27:07

for me, the way that mental health is treated

1:27:10

differently from sequence to sequence

1:27:13

is challenging, and I really don't like on

1:27:16

screen suicide attempts

1:27:18

im docking it. For that, I

1:27:20

think that that's what I have to say.

1:27:23

Woohoo, Jamie, tell us

1:27:25

more about where we can listen

1:27:27

to and find Well, wait, I didn't get to give my nip.

1:27:30

Sorry, sorry, Okay, I'm giving

1:27:32

one to Aubrey, I'm giving one to Elizabeth,

1:27:34

and I'm giving one to Osha. Keep

1:27:36

it simple, nice now tell

1:27:39

us yes. So sixteenth Minute.

1:27:41

The first episode of sixteenth Minute came

1:27:43

out on Tuesday, May seventh. It

1:27:46

is about Antoine Dodson of

1:27:48

the bed Intruder song Fame.

1:27:50

Wait was that the Hyder kids hide your wife?

1:27:52

Mm hmmmm, I remember? And

1:27:54

that is sort of how every episode of

1:27:57

sixteenth Minute works, where it's sort of like, oh,

1:28:00

right, that person and

1:28:02

then we talk about it. And I spoke

1:28:05

with Antoine Dodson for this episode

1:28:07

as well as other people, and some episodes

1:28:10

are, you know, more intense

1:28:12

than others. It sort of depends from story to

1:28:15

story. Some of it's very silly and

1:28:17

some of it is a little more in depth.

1:28:19

So I think you'll enjoy it. If you like

1:28:21

this show and you don't hate

1:28:24

my Guts, I think that you will enjoy

1:28:26

the show. And yes, it's also produced by Sophie

1:28:28

Lichtmann and I'm very proud and

1:28:30

excited about it. So please check it out if

1:28:33

you want to learn more about

1:28:35

how the Internet is poisoning the worlds yay.

1:28:41

And then you can follow us

1:28:43

on the normal places. Also, you

1:28:46

can follow me on Instagram

1:28:49

what Kaylen Dorante Jamie

1:28:51

where can people follow you?

1:28:53

You can follow me at Jamie christ Superstar

1:28:56

on Instagram where I'm constantly

1:28:59

not I also okay, last point,

1:29:01

last point. I feel like this also came

1:29:03

out at a time where it's like being

1:29:05

dishonest about exactly what

1:29:08

was going on in your life in social media

1:29:10

was like bad and you're like, what do you

1:29:12

want me to do? Post to thousands

1:29:14

of people that like Taylor is supposed

1:29:17

to post to thousands of people that she's having

1:29:19

difficulty in her marriage, like, what is the expectation?

1:29:22

Anyways, No, anyways, you can

1:29:24

see me misrepresenting my mental

1:29:27

health state probably on my

1:29:29

Instagram at jamiechrist Superstar.

1:29:31

And you can see me not really

1:29:34

posting anything on my grid, but

1:29:37

know that I am watching

1:29:40

cat videos and crying

1:29:44

because of all of the stuff I'm learning

1:29:46

about the genocides

1:29:48

happening across the world.

1:29:51

Got it?

1:29:52

Follow us on social media at

1:29:55

Bechdelcast, and we've

1:29:57

got a Patreon aka Matreon

1:30:00

that is at patreon dot com slash

1:30:02

Bechdel Cast. You get two bonus episodes

1:30:05

every month on a

1:30:07

fun little theme that we cook up.

1:30:09

This month is my birthday

1:30:12

month, and so we

1:30:14

are doing some of my favorite

1:30:17

Pixar movies. And

1:30:20

you can also grab our merchant teapublic

1:30:23

dot com slash the Bechdel Cast,

1:30:25

and our tour is very

1:30:28

soon.

1:30:28

It's very soon. It's in the UK and

1:30:30

Dublin. You can get tickets at

1:30:33

linktree, which is in

1:30:35

the description of this episode.

1:30:39

So with that, hey, let's hashtag

1:30:42

log off and touch

1:30:44

some ground.

1:30:45

Touch grass off.

1:30:47

I go bye bye bye.

1:30:53

The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

1:30:55

hosted by Caitlin Dorante and Jamie Loftus,

1:30:58

produced by Sophie Lichtermany

1:31:00

molaboord. Our theme song was

1:31:02

composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals

1:31:04

by Katherine Voskresenski. Our

1:31:07

logo in merch is designed by Jamie

1:31:09

Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle

1:31:11

Acevedo. For more information

1:31:13

about the podcast, please visit linktree

1:31:16

slash Bechdelcast