0:00

Hey, before we get started with this episode, if you're into

0:02

the future of digital collectibles, make sure you check

0:04

out the latest episode of The Nifty Show

0:07

at theniftyshow.com. In

0:10

our last episode, we shared news

0:12

of Google's new quantum computer,

0:14

which raised all kinds of questions

0:16

about breaking Bitcoin's cryptographic

0:19

code. While we were able to speculate

0:21

a bit about what that means, we decided

0:23

to invite a real quantum physicist

0:26

to the show to provide deeper insight.

0:28

And to make it even more interesting,

0:30

he's got a really thick French accent.

0:32

So bonjour, mes amis, et bienvenue à

0:35

épisode number 689 of le podcast de Bad Crypto.

0:41

5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, ignition. Who's there?

1:11

Hey,

1:11

welcome, everybody. It's the Bad Crypto podcast.

1:14

Comrade Travis Wrighty, Comrade

1:17

Joel here in the house. And

1:20

today we are really doing part

1:22

two of this topic of quantum

1:25

computing and what it means to Bitcoin.

1:28

Only we have an expert to

1:30

speak with, and he is French. And

1:32

his accent is pretty thick, you know, when he's

1:34

speaking English, you gotta listen carefully.

1:36

It's worth it because the dude knows what he's talking

1:39

about. But you have to listen.

1:41

Before we get into that, I just want to say

1:43

just as a general date

1:46

stamping here, it is the 13th of

1:50

July. We just heard today

1:52

that Alex Mashinsky has been

1:54

arrested by the SEC, and XRP has been

1:58

declared to not be a... security. So

2:01

that's some interesting stuff that now by the time

2:03

you're hearing this is already is already

2:05

out and out there, but it's just kind of crazy.

2:07

A lot of stuff going on in the crypto

2:10

world. And some things

2:12

that we need to start thinking about in this new

2:14

AI blockchain quantum computing world

2:16

and how are our algorithms

2:19

and our encryptions safe, Joel,

2:21

is our cryptography safe? So

2:24

that's already old news, Trev, just like you and I

2:27

are.

2:29

So two things we're going to bring to you

2:31

after the break. One, we're going to talk

2:34

a little bit about the sixth anniversary

2:36

of this show and what we're planning. And

2:39

two, we've got an NFT for you if

2:41

you're a member of the bad crypto nifty

2:43

club. So let's get into this whole quantum

2:46

computing thing with Pierre,

2:48

Luke, Dallaire, Demers, Trevian.

2:54

So Trev, you were out on the

2:56

internets and you're trying

2:58

to do some research on this whole

3:01

quantum computing thing and Google's

3:03

Bitcoin killer, cryptography

3:05

killer, and you came across a tweet. Tell

3:07

me about that. Well,

3:09

it was my tweet. Actually,

3:11

I came across an article about Google's

3:13

quantum computer and how they're making

3:15

transactions. What they were saying was that

3:17

this new supercomputer can make calculations

3:20

in one second that would take current

3:22

today rival supercomputers 47

3:25

years to do. And I was

3:27

like, what that seems like some hyperbole.

3:29

And so I found that on feedly and I tweeted

3:32

it out. It's got now over 69,000 views, actually 69,420

3:34

views, I think that's the proper

3:39

internet number. But

3:41

I was like, dude, so how long is this going to take to break

3:44

the Bitcoin encryption? And and

3:46

so our friend here, Pierre,

3:48

Luke, he came in and said 10 minutes. And

3:51

then oh my god, did that create a

3:53

hornet storm of people

3:55

calling him names and calling

3:57

him an idiot. And then I'm like, Wait

3:59

a second. And he doesn't seem like an idiot. He seems really

4:02

nice. I was like, wait a second. He's one of the top minds

4:04

in quantum science and top

4:06

rated guy in cryptography and physics.

4:08

Like this dude might be somebody we want to

4:10

talk to Joe. So basically he's a random internet

4:13

guy. Yeah. And he also seems French. So

4:15

we got that going for us. His name is Pierre, Luke,

4:17

Dallaire de matters. He's the founder and

4:19

CEO of the Pauli group. They worked

4:21

to secure digital assets from

4:23

quantum computer attacks and interface,

4:26

blockchains and quantum technologies. He's

4:28

been in the quantum space gang

4:29

for 17 years. So clearly

4:32

he doesn't know what he's talking about. He was also previously

4:34

a quantum physicist at Zapata

4:37

computing and Xanadu as

4:39

a postdoctoral research scholar

4:42

at Harvard. Pierre, Luke,

4:44

we will only mildly make fun of your French

4:47

accents. Welcome good sir to the bad

4:49

crypto podcast. Bonjour. Awesome

4:52

to see you Joe Allen Travis.

4:55

Thanks for coming. It's super happy

4:57

to be talking to you on the topic. Oh,

4:59

it's our pleasure. And you know, we, we

5:01

covered on our last episode our

5:04

understanding of what was taking place

5:06

with Google's new quantum computer,

5:08

but we thought it'd be best to talk to somebody who

5:11

actually might know what they're talking about.

5:13

And so we're gonna, we're gonna lay down our

5:15

chips on, on you today. So

5:17

perhaps you can begin for us and

5:20

explaining in like we're fifth

5:22

graders. How quantum

5:24

computing works and how is different

5:26

from classical computing? Yeah.

5:29

So the explanation

5:33

is that the easiest way is probably to

5:35

say what quantum computer is not so like, it's not

5:37

often like people think, okay, either. It's

5:39

like a computer that they compute,

5:42

like all answers in parallel and then gives you the answer.

5:45

It's not really that it's

5:47

not either much faster than classical

5:49

computers. Like a quantum computer runs at about

5:51

like one megahertz. So like by measure of

5:54

like your laptop, like it's, it's kind of sluggish.

5:58

But it's a different

5:59

way of thinking. more general

6:01

form of computing. So like there's,

6:04

it uses the laws of quantum mechanics

6:07

to do some

6:09

types of calculation which would

6:12

not be possible in the old time,

6:15

even on supercomputers.

6:17

And the magic here

6:19

happens if you want because the,

6:23

say you could build like a classical computer, you take

6:25

like a build here, like bittered

6:27

balls and then you place like pins

6:31

everywhere and you shake it and try to get an answer like

6:33

probabilistically.

6:35

With quantum computers, there's something a bit more general, it's

6:37

not even probabilities, it's something called amplitude

6:39

of probabilities. And like

6:42

the

6:43

manipulating those with quantum gates

6:45

allows us to say break cryptography,

6:47

do quantum simulations much faster.

6:50

And it's really the

6:52

the

6:53

the the crux of the technology. So like it's really about

6:57

being able to control

7:00

quantum states and isolate them

7:03

enables new types of calculation.

7:06

And the technology has been

7:08

like invented, discovered like almost 40 years ago now.

7:11

And the

7:13

experimental progress started in the

7:16

90s. In the 2000s, like we saw like the first like

7:18

few

7:18

bits like people like successfully

7:21

being able to control like

7:26

the smallest possible particles like

7:29

enable them to do calculation. There was

7:31

still a lot of noise, but recently we

7:34

vantered a regime where

7:36

like the large scale machines and

7:39

the ability of those systems to break

7:41

crypto are getting like we

7:43

see

7:46

the path to get there like in an engineering.

7:48

I don't understand. I'm gonna be handed

7:50

here and I'm gonna say I'm trying

7:52

to understand this as a fifth grader

7:55

or a 12 year old. And

7:57

what I hear you saying is the computers aren't any faster.

7:59

right?

8:01

It's we're talking about the kind of hardware

8:03

we're used to. So is it the software?

8:06

What is it that allows it to do

8:09

exponentially faster computing

8:13

than classical computing?

8:15

It's a bit related to the,

8:18

the Eisenberg uncertainty principle.

8:20

So if you measure the position of a particle, you

8:22

don't get the speed or if

8:24

you measure its speed, you, you get like the, the position.

8:28

It's kind of the same. So instead

8:30

of having bits as in classical

8:32

computers for like a transistor switch, we have two bits

8:35

and this is a quantum bits, which can be like zeros

8:37

and one, but they also have this Eisenberg

8:41

uncertainty principle where

8:43

the, the, like they

8:45

can be in a superposition of both. And

8:48

if you measure it, then the,

8:50

it's like,

8:54

that's kind of an axis where there's uncertainty.

8:57

And when you have several of those, then

8:59

the space of possible combination

9:02

becomes exponentially large.

9:04

And if you tune it

9:07

just the right way, there's some

9:10

answers which you can extract,

9:12

namely for, for, for, like say, say factoring

9:15

or like,

9:18

say simulating molecules

9:20

like materials. So it's really

9:23

in some sense, next question

9:25

in a much larger, but the ability

9:27

to go in a much larger space

9:30

and then come back like to the answer.

9:32

It's really wild. It's really wild when you think

9:34

about it. And I think it's confusing for a

9:37

lot of people. So I went to chat

9:39

GPT for, and I'm like, what's the easiest way to

9:41

describe quantum computing? And

9:43

it says, imagine you're flipping a coin,

9:46

the coin can either be heads or tails. That's

9:48

a bit like a normal computer work with the bits, you

9:51

know, binary ones and zeros. And

9:53

so now imagine if the coin could be

9:55

both heads and tails at the

9:58

same time while it's flipping.

9:59

in the air. And so instead

10:02

of saying instead of having these crossroads,

10:04

where you come to the fork in the road,

10:06

you go, Oh, so I need to go left, left,

10:09

oh, I need to go right or left, you're able to

10:11

go to all of them simultaneously,

10:13

in one parallel, but also

10:16

not just on one plane, but also

10:19

not just linearly, but also

10:21

exponentially, simultaneously.

10:24

So it seems to me like,

10:25

it's just such a bigger way

10:27

of doing complex computing

10:30

that it's not even easy to

10:32

understand at all. Is that is

10:34

that a fair assumption? Yeah. And

10:36

like, when like, when physicists

10:38

do that, like we treated through the equation, we

10:41

understand the equation, but like the in terms

10:43

of extreme unit in terms of classical

10:47

analogies, it doesn't

10:49

work. Because if there was an easy classical analogy,

10:51

there would be an easy classical way

10:53

to do it on classical computers.

10:56

So that's where

10:58

the normal

11:00

intuition we have about computing like breaks

11:02

down. And that's why it's always like so

11:04

difficult, like even in like news

11:07

article, or even on chat GPT to explain

11:09

and simple concept,

11:12

what it does. So like the it's

11:14

really when you take like the principles of quantum mechanics,

11:17

there, those principles are more

11:20

general than what we're used to when we think in

11:22

terms of probabilities, there's those more

11:24

general objects, and it's really those objects

11:26

with like,

11:28

which gives the power to quantum computers.

11:31

And these fundamental are totally real. So like,

11:33

it's what, like we see

11:35

when we do say, entanglements when we have

11:38

those particles with like

11:41

the the

11:43

the total body of the particles is like,

11:46

fully known. So it's kind of it's entanglement

11:48

to you know, exactly like how

11:50

the mini particles are

11:53

assembled. But if you only take one, you

11:55

only get noise.

11:57

So like classically, usually, like

11:59

if you have like a

11:59

like many objects,

12:02

there's no uncertainty. If

12:05

you say, if you have box of our range, if you pick an orange, you

12:07

know, it's gonna be an orange. If you have like a quantum

12:09

superpositions of that post an orange,

12:12

like you can know exactly how many there will

12:14

be in total, but if you pick one, it's always gonna be random.

12:17

And this is a very quantum

12:19

phenomenon. So you can know

12:21

exactly the state of many objects,

12:24

even if the individual components

12:26

are completely random.

12:27

And this only happens in quantum mechanics. He's

12:29

comparing apples to oranges, Trev.

12:32

No, he's not, he's comparing apples to oranges.

12:34

Or oranges. So, okay, you mentioned qubits,

12:37

Q-U-B-I-T. Again,

12:40

make it simple, cause we're the

12:42

village idiots. What's a qubit?

12:44

Yeah, so it's a quantum

12:47

bit. So like it's the, what,

12:50

like a bit is a zero one, it's a switch

12:52

in a classical computer.

12:54

Quantum bit is kind of a

12:56

switch also, like it's a piece of memory.

12:58

So it's a bit of information. So it can

13:00

be, it can be like physically

13:03

can be several things depending on how you

13:05

build your quantum computers. So it can be like simple atoms.

13:08

And then you have an electron. It's a, say if it's

13:10

moving in one direction, it's a zero. If

13:13

it's moving in the other direction, it's a one. And

13:16

then like you can measure like

13:19

the direction it's moving so we can know in which

13:21

state it is. But like you can

13:23

use a laser and put it in

13:24

a superposition of both. So

13:27

like the, and

13:30

it happens because the, like

13:32

atoms are governed

13:34

by the laws of quantum mechanics.

13:36

And then there's other technologies. So say Google

13:38

IBM, they have like a small loops of superconductors

13:41

with no resistance. And like they're currently going one way,

13:43

the other way it's a zero, like zero

13:45

one. And there's similar principles

13:48

to like manipulate

13:50

those quantum bits,

13:51

like you flip the states and do logical

13:54

operations. So it can be semiconductors

13:57

as they do at Intel. It can be neutral atoms.

14:00

various different technologies now. The

14:03

principle is always that you

14:05

pick like

14:09

a very quantum object

14:11

as though that we studied quantum mechanics and

14:13

you identify, you put

14:16

a tag on what's a zero, you put a tag on what's its

14:18

one, on what is one and then using laser,

14:21

like lasers or microwaves or

14:23

something then you're able to

14:25

change the state of those objects and

14:27

put it in like do quantum

14:29

operations on those. And so

14:31

I think one of the thing I think is curious for most

14:33

people is that for me, because I was

14:35

reading this and it said,

14:37

you know, in 2019 Google

14:39

released a quantum computer that was like 41

14:41

or 43 qubits, right? And

14:45

now they released a brand new one recently

14:49

at the end of the last month, early part of this month,

14:51

that was 70 qubits. And

14:53

it was talking about how even though it's

14:55

only like 27 qubits more, it's

14:59

like 241 million

15:01

times more powerful or

15:03

something. So it's, I don't

15:06

know that we fully understand

15:09

how big or powerful a qubit is

15:11

when we're comparing it to a bit because

15:14

a bit in a normal computer, a bit ain't

15:16

shit but a qubit is

15:19

in some way. And it's like the more of

15:21

them, it seems like

15:22

it's becoming exponentially

15:25

more powerful somehow. And

15:27

I don't know that we understand why that

15:29

is.

15:31

The full, full, full

15:33

explanation of why quantum computers

15:36

are more powerful, no one knows. We just

15:38

like, we know- That

15:40

is not helpful. What we know

15:43

is that if you try to solve

15:46

like the equations of quantum

15:48

mechanics with a supercomputer,

15:50

it's gonna be exponentially large.

15:52

While with the quantum computer, you

15:54

just implement the operation and it

15:56

works much

15:59

faster.

15:59

universal god stuff or something like we don't

16:02

even understand how but it's at

16:04

this the quantum field it's

16:06

this microscopic little bits

16:08

doing shit that we don't understand but

16:10

it's able to compute it's mind

16:13

blowing and so. Understanding

16:15

what we understand at this point, which is

16:17

very little frankly right we're trying

16:19

to understand it, but we just had Pierre tells

16:21

nobody really understands why it does it but

16:24

it's crazy so. You know

16:26

the conversation has been is bitcoin

16:29

safe

16:29

and so it how long

16:32

will bitcoin be safe and maybe what

16:34

could be done for this.

16:36

quote you know post quantum encryption

16:39

type of thing that we're going to need so let's start with

16:42

why do you think bitcoin is not

16:44

safe long term.

16:46

Yes, so so one of the problem with quantum

16:48

computers, I don't know if you've heard about the schrodinger

16:50

scat so the cat in the box and like

16:52

if there's you can have an atom and then like

16:54

if the essentially a qubit

16:57

you put the qubit in a superposition and then you put

16:59

mechanism that. Is it like the double slit experiment

17:01

thing. Very close very close, so

17:04

if you observe the cat the cat is one one

17:06

of two states

17:07

so so like the but the the

17:10

the environment of the cat makes any noise if there's

17:12

any like information about

17:14

the state of the cat that come out of the box, then the cat is

17:16

in is in a different state.

17:18

It's like it relates to the observer

17:20

and it's almost like cubits work like if you

17:22

observe them they work one way

17:24

if you don't observe that it's almost like

17:27

if a tree falls in the forest and

17:29

nobody is there do you hear it. And

17:31

you don't know but in the quantum

17:33

field.

17:34

What cubits work differently if you're

17:36

not paying attention to them, but once you give it intention

17:39

or pay attention to it, it works a certain way right.

17:41

exact exact and that's

17:43

the old art actually because the any

17:46

any like if there's a train like

17:49

a few miles away or like if there's too many people

17:51

in the lab it's actually it's noise

17:53

that can give like

17:54

very fraction of bits of information about the

17:56

quantum computing collapses the state, so we

17:58

have to complete.

17:59

isolated from the environment. So

18:02

like there's something called a decoherence that like

18:04

just like grabs the state and then your calculation is

18:06

just noise. Okay. And there's

18:08

a technique it's called like we know we can correct

18:11

those errors. So like it's the old field

18:13

of quantum error correction. And this

18:15

is what's actually happening in the field. And like it's

18:18

the what makes the difference between the

18:20

very noisy qubits that you

18:22

can try online and like you you'll do a few operations

18:24

going to get lost in noise. Those

18:28

operations when you have enough qubits then you can

18:30

start to kind of amplify

18:33

the the like increase

18:35

the quality of the box if you want. So if you

18:37

have enough qubits you use only a few

18:39

of them to encode information and you use all the

18:42

others to evacuate all the noise. And

18:44

then you effectively have a box kind

18:46

of like the cat but like a that good

18:48

ethnic box. And in this that's

18:50

where you can do a very large

18:53

quantum computation. And this is the space where

18:55

you start to to to break cartography.

18:58

So

18:58

like up to yeah up to

19:00

recently it was the very noisy

19:02

machines. But now we're kind of at the point

19:05

where

19:05

before if you add qubit you increase the noise

19:08

because there's just more stuff that it can interact.

19:10

But now we're at the point where we can add qubits

19:12

and we can kind of amplify the coherence

19:15

of the machine. And there's

19:17

a point so so and it allows to

19:19

do more operation. It actually

19:22

amplify exponentially the number of operations

19:25

that we can do.

19:26

So I'd

19:29

like to say I'm keeping up but obviously

19:31

this is you know what we're talking here

19:33

is is not just mechanical

19:36

it's philosophical because we don't even understand

19:39

some of it. So you know your response

19:41

to Travis's tweet that it would

19:43

take a computer

19:46

capable of quantum supremacy 10 minutes

19:49

to break the Bitcoin

19:52

cryptographic you know algorithm.

19:55

This is definitely you know what

19:57

does this mean to the crypto.

19:59

a world if that's the case.

20:02

Yeah.

20:03

Not today, but the machines,

20:06

like the technology is on the path to be able

20:08

to do that in about like less than 10

20:10

years now.

20:11

So 10 years, we're still, we're

20:13

still, we got a decade to, to

20:16

upgrade the, the code and

20:19

figure this out.

20:20

It's a good news because it's not done. It's not a switch.

20:22

So as a famous

20:24

couple of photographers are saying, like it's not a Tuesday patch.

20:27

Uh, the main problem is

20:29

that the four blockchains, so,

20:31

so like to say governments right now are like

20:34

companies they worried about store now the key up

20:36

later. So like, uh, intelligence agencies

20:38

just cracking the data and waiting until they have the machines

20:40

to break it. Uh, and just like correct information

20:43

for blockchains, it's essentially a,

20:45

uh, it's a ledger of public key,

20:47

which is distributed. So like the copies exist everywhere.

20:49

I don't need to store it. Like people do it for you. And,

20:52

and

20:54

those public keys are the,

20:56

um, the type of problem which

20:59

those quantum computers, which are being built

21:01

now by the end of the decade would be able to break

21:04

and, um, it's not even

21:07

a question of whether the computers break

21:09

it or not. So large companies, they, they,

21:12

they don't build those machines to bring Bitcoin. They

21:14

build it to new, to do new materials, new drugs,

21:16

like do, do, do discoveries of new science.

21:19

But it turns out that those same algorithms,

21:22

which, uh, can be used to do new

21:25

science, uh, are as difficult

21:27

as the algorithm to bring the crypto.

21:29

So if like in 2035, there's

21:31

quantum computers and universities, there's got

21:33

to be, uh, students

21:35

with nothing to do. We'll just like start breaking Bitcoin

21:38

because they can. And just the fact that the machine

21:40

can exist can reduce the confidence

21:42

in, uh, blockchains, which

21:45

rely on those, uh, signatures,

21:47

which can be broken and that's kind of the problem. Like the

21:49

new cycle will be that like the quantum

21:51

computers will get better and better, people will live with it.

21:58

as

22:01

the question, okay, like is Bitcoin safe? And the answer is

22:03

no, it's not really. So that's why

22:06

it's important to start thinking about the capability

22:10

of blockchains now and how

22:12

people will be able to protect assets, how

22:15

like the upgrade can be done

22:18

such that as like the machines

22:20

get more powerful, the Bitcoin community

22:22

can say, okay, but we're aware of this, like as

22:25

the plan airs, how we mitigate

22:27

like the different problems with

22:29

the satoship Bitcoins and like the

22:31

some addresses are more resistant.

22:34

As the plan to like sunset the

22:36

old cryptographic methods. And

22:40

from that point, like

22:42

it builds more

22:44

confidence that the system will be

22:46

able to hold even in the presence of

22:49

like the quantum computers of the future.

22:51

So, but like this is not something that can be done

22:54

overnight because the first like the community

22:56

has to find out like which method they're gonna be using,

22:59

deploy them, then get consensus

23:01

on what happens with like the vulnerable address,

23:04

which is not an easy topic. So

23:07

it kind of goes like the

23:09

Bitcoin is very resistant because it's decentralized,

23:11

but to upgrade the crypto somehow

23:13

if you want as to agree together on

23:15

what's gonna be the next step. So it kind of has

23:17

to, there has to be a

23:19

point where all

23:22

the players come, agree on something

23:24

and then update the system or find a path to

23:26

upgrading the system while

23:29

keeping it decentralized. And that's

23:32

the very difficult. It's

23:34

less a technical challenge more than a big

23:37

coordination challenge to get everyone to agree

23:39

on what are the, what is the rational

23:42

path to upgrading the system. That makes sense

23:44

because if you were to look at that, just based on

23:46

what you had said, wow, how long will

23:48

it take for this? Cause my question originally

23:50

was, how long will it take for quantum

23:53

computing to get to the point

23:55

where it can crack Bitcoin? And you

23:57

came in and said 10 minutes. And so there was

23:59

a little.

23:59

confusion there, which I think did set up, set

24:02

off some of the OGs like Jamison

24:05

Lott joined in and said, you don't understand.

24:08

It's good because I'm gonna make a bet this won't even

24:10

be relevant within 10 years from now.

24:12

And then Adam back came in and he was

24:15

saying, Yeah, put your money where your mouth is, blah, blah. So

24:17

you got these OGs who are a little sort

24:19

of, you know, self confident and righteous

24:21

about it. But there's a whole lot of people who don't

24:24

understand it at all. And so since

24:26

they're so deep in it, you know, I

24:28

think that's where a lot of the problem is. And

24:30

that's one of the reasons why Joel and I started the show

24:32

is that there's so many smart people

24:34

way smarter than us that's doing these algorithms

24:37

and creating these cryptographic solutions

24:40

and whatnot that go over most people's

24:42

heads. And I don't think a lot of

24:44

those really smart OGs are able

24:46

to dumb it down. It's hard for you to

24:48

dumb it down because you're so cerebral

24:50

in the quantum computing world that it's it's

24:53

it's hard for you to dumb it down for folks.

24:55

But that's what we need is because we don't understand

24:57

it. But I'm looking at your top

25:00

your top pin tweet, where it talks

25:02

about DARPA and it talks about the quantum utility

25:05

example. So you know, when

25:07

this article came out in 2021, it we were

25:12

sitting at 10 to the second power number

25:14

of interacting qubits. That's where

25:16

we were now.

25:17

Are we now at 10 to the third

25:19

power of qubits now with with

25:22

Google's new quantum computer? Is that

25:24

is that how we've gone up the list now? Because it

25:26

looks based on that trending chart,

25:28

it's where it'll be.

25:29

IBM as

25:31

the like, as

25:34

the plan to release the 1,121 qubit machine

25:36

in 2023. So like,

25:40

it's after years past now. So look

25:42

at

25:42

my expectation is either going to be end of the year,

25:44

like maybe you're in a 10 to the third power

25:47

then. Okay, so neutral atoms

25:49

also are close there. And

25:51

like they have plans to release like 1000. So

25:54

it's actually on that path right now.

25:56

Like this, this plot,

25:59

it's actually like

25:59

from that moment, so I had been

26:02

in crypto since 2013. And

26:04

we were working on the DARPA projects and the

26:07

managers were like, okay,

26:09

guys take screenshot of that. Because it's kind

26:11

of the point where it becomes public

26:14

that the side guys,

26:16

like a few years ago, we would have like 100 qubit

26:18

by 2030. But from that point- We

26:21

would have a what qubit? One on the red.

26:23

In 2021,

26:25

people were mostly like, okay, it's gonna be 100.

26:28

But from that point, what DARPA did is they

26:30

went around like the big companies and they just like,

26:33

collected their own maps and anonymized

26:35

them just because it's the way they- It looks like there's

26:38

somebody like 2029 said that

26:40

they can get to 10 to the sixth power of

26:43

a number of interacting qubits. I don't know who

26:45

said that, but 2029. And then

26:47

right above that, right beyond that

26:49

is quantum supremacy.

26:51

It's where crypto starts breaking.

26:53

And it's where crypto starts breaking with the

26:55

old algorithms. Because what's happening is the

26:57

number of qubits is increasing and the algorithm

26:59

are making the number, the requirements lower also.

27:02

So like there's kind of the two trends that are converging.

27:05

And this plot did not include progress

27:07

in AI.

27:08

So wait a second. Should we

27:10

just have quantum computing Bitcoin

27:13

miners? Just be like, and like,

27:15

boom, it just creates, it figures out the puzzle

27:17

quicker and you'd be able to claim

27:20

more of the Bitcoin that's been mined?

27:22

People have looked

27:25

and like, there's

27:27

really like two important crypto

27:30

part. Like in Bitcoin, there's the signature.

27:32

This is the part which is risky. And there's

27:34

the consensus, like the hashing.

27:36

And the problem with hashing is that you need a quantum

27:38

computer, the size of the city to make

27:41

it faster. So- Okay, so not yet.

27:43

Yeah, no, no, it's not a problem. It's really

27:45

the signature. The signature, if

27:47

you want like the real measure of progress

27:50

is the number of quantum operations you can do.

27:52

Right now we can do maybe 10,000. Like

27:55

it's still like in a lot of noise.

27:57

Breaking crypto is about 50 million.

27:59

the end operations, the quantum

28:02

like quantum simulations, if you want to submit

28:04

materials, it's also in the millions of variations.

28:06

If you want to do hashing, it's like 10 with 40 zeros

28:09

operation.

28:10

So this is so

28:12

getting to why we're still kind of in the we're

28:14

still kind of really early. But

28:17

in this game, it can ramp up really

28:20

quickly, as we just noticed, from

28:22

three years ago, and now here, the next one's 241

28:24

million times more

28:26

powerful. We're still early. But

28:29

if we're not making contingency plans for

28:31

down the road, we could be caught

28:33

with our pants down and have some problems with

28:35

crypto being destroyed by quantum

28:38

computing.

28:39

Yeah, and the the error correction stuff

28:41

is the way I was talking about that is that

28:44

it amplifies exponentially the number

28:46

of operations that we can do. So we can do 10,000

28:48

now, like in two years, we can

28:50

do a million in five, 10 years, we can

28:52

do billion. It just

28:54

like blows up up the water. And that's

28:57

the whole point. If it was exponential,

28:59

so if we could only increase like a linear

29:01

leader number of cubists, no one would be building quantum computers,

29:04

it would be exponential. It's really

29:06

that the like it's, I

29:09

don't have to explain like polynomial exponential,

29:11

like

29:11

when we reach that point where we can do

29:13

exponential amplification, then

29:17

you only need like to add polynomial number

29:19

of resources to break

29:20

Bitcoin and like really physical resources.

29:22

So like including like the power pipe, like

29:25

the material everything. So we have

29:28

nothing in the wall. It's what it looks like. Aren't

29:30

our problems even bigger than that?

29:32

At that point, Pierre-Luc don't because,

29:34

you know, cryptography is not

29:37

just, you know, cryptocurrency

29:39

and Bitcoin and blockchain, right? We have

29:41

governments that depend on secure

29:44

cryptography. We have businesses, we have financial

29:46

institutions, and we see, you know, people

29:49

hacking into these organizations.

29:50

Now with the power of quantum

29:52

computing, you know, rogue actors

29:55

will be able to get in and mess with

29:57

everything, right? We can have

29:59

some.

29:59

serious issues in

30:02

global politics and

30:05

people's money just disappearing. They're,

30:07

they're, they're CBDCs, right?

30:10

Whatever it is that we're going to have years from now.

30:12

So what are governments

30:15

and industry doing to prepare

30:18

for this type of onslaught?

30:20

They're already starting. So like

30:22

even the big quantum company, often they have a crypto

30:25

arm and they are starting to upgrade

30:27

companies. The White House already

30:29

have directives like for different agencies

30:32

to like do the inventory, start upgrading.

30:34

Some banks are starting to look at it. Telecoms,

30:37

Google internal communication is already quantum resistant,

30:40

building a quantum computer, the cloud

30:42

flare, I think upgraded. So like

30:44

governments and the streets are

30:47

already starting to upgrade. Lockchains

30:50

have to follow as well. And,

30:52

and that's kind of an historical thing also. So

30:54

like the, the very specific method

30:57

that Satoshi picked in 2008 to, to, to sign the transaction,

31:01

it

31:01

turns out that it's about a hundred times easier

31:04

to break with a quantum computer than the

31:06

one by banks.

31:07

So like the, the back in 2008, it

31:10

made sense because like the, the, the quantum computers

31:12

were not like, it was like two qubits

31:14

and it was like completely complete noise expert

31:17

with the, it would say, okay, like it's 50 years away

31:19

at least. Uh, but then like progress

31:21

happened fast and now it just turns

31:23

out that the, the,

31:26

bit like the signatures of Bitcoin

31:28

is one of the easiest to break. So

31:30

before you get to the point where you can break banks,

31:33

there's like almost a generation of two of quantum

31:35

computers that in between, there's not much

31:37

else to do than breaking like, uh,

31:40

it's occurs in doing very simple quantum simulation.

31:42

So, so Bitcoin is kind of a canary in the mind there

31:44

and

31:46

it's contingency so that I

31:48

don't think people like it was

31:50

known in 2003 that the

31:53

signature would be broken, but the timelines were not clear.

31:56

So it made sense to pick the, those signatures

31:58

in 2008 and somehow like. the it

32:00

just stayed. But

32:03

like that the very specific cryptography

32:06

that was used for Bitcoin

32:08

also turned out to be one of the simplest to break and

32:10

that that's kind of the issue. So the

32:13

government agencies like banks, everyone is upgrading

32:16

like legitimately. But

32:18

already that they were using mostly RSA

32:21

and RSA is just

32:22

a bit more difficult to break with quantum

32:24

computers by about like a generation of machines. And

32:27

that's why I think it's a bigger emergency

32:30

for like

32:31

cryptocurrencies

32:34

than it is for banks

32:36

or like for governance, which

32:38

also have to prepare because like they have

32:40

to face like other kinds of threats.

32:43

There might be some stuff popping

32:45

up, then maybe some quantum resistant

32:47

cryptocurrencies that make you know, bitcoins,

32:49

obviously, the one that everybody's

32:52

been holding on to for so long, but if

32:54

they get to the point where they're not quantum resistant,

32:57

is that an opportunity for some cryptocurrency

32:59

that does position itself similar

33:02

to Bitcoin, but

33:03

is

33:05

resistant to the quantum computers?

33:07

Yes, so there are no methods which is

33:09

this quantum computer. So like it's the

33:11

not like there's only a few

33:13

crypto methods which are known

33:15

to be vulnerable and like it's well it's

33:18

well characterized. There are some quantum resistant

33:20

blockchain, so it's going to be definitely in the opportunity

33:22

for them.

33:23

The yes, what are their what

33:25

are their names? If you don't mind asking? I

33:28

know I know I know like ql ql

33:32

q the quantum resistance ledger like they're using

33:34

your ash signatures and those are

33:37

resistant. Okay. What

33:40

else there's a few smaller

33:42

chains with essentially maybe tweeted out so we can

33:44

put it in our show notes because I think that might be interesting

33:46

for people that we're not making financial recommendations

33:49

just as something to maybe do some research

33:51

on and I've not like

33:53

the code there. So it's up to the point

33:56

where like I know those things. Yeah, those

33:58

guys they're serious.

33:59

Yeah, the,

34:02

and

34:03

we will have to adjust like the others

34:06

just to make sure like it's well implemented. But for sure

34:08

it's an opportunity for quantum resistant

34:10

blockchain to, because they don't have like essentially

34:13

like they're safe from ground zero.

34:15

But we still argue that most

34:17

blockchains should upgrade because say if

34:20

most of the market caps were

34:22

to be like

34:24

coupled by quantum computers.

34:27

If the quantum

34:29

resistant blockchains are standing in the wasteland, it's

34:32

not necessarily a better situation than the,

34:35

because no one,

34:37

because like

34:38

most users won't look at the details

34:40

of the cryptography. It's not a better situation

34:42

than like if at least like some parts of the

34:44

current blockchain that are are graded so like

34:47

the we think it's an interesting problem.

34:49

Joel do you have any additional questions I have another

34:51

one around a different topic so if you have any more

34:53

around. Go ahead, Trev I think my brain

34:56

is is doing quantum. I can

34:58

see a little bit of steam coming out of that one here. The other

35:00

one was a little bit of smoke so I didn't know. So

35:03

let's say so you're doing some some cool stuff when

35:05

it comes to blockchain quantum

35:07

computing and artificial intelligence.

35:10

And so, you know, just a general sort

35:12

of thought of what we know around quantum

35:15

computing it would seem that it's going to allow

35:17

for some faster data processing

35:20

potentially allowing for complex

35:22

problem solving. And maybe

35:24

even some improved machine learning models

35:27

but how do you foresee quantum

35:29

computing interacting with AI

35:32

and essentially by the year 2030

35:35

our overlords are going to be quantum

35:37

AI or what.

35:39

Likely

35:41

so that

35:44

it's not like it's the

35:46

topic of debate I won't expert to like is there

35:48

an advantage to quantum machine learning bits

35:51

unknown like intensively there should

35:53

be some kind of advantage so like if you were

35:55

to wire an AI with the quantum computer like

35:57

you would expect like the better material.

35:59

If you had to design new materials and

36:02

you want to do it from quantum mechanics, you wire

36:04

an AI with a quantum computer and you give

36:06

the AI the ability to process a

36:08

quantum problem.

36:11

It's likely the form it will take

36:14

by those times because the quantum machine is

36:16

not an instantaneous calculation. If

36:19

you do those simulations, they're going to be minutes

36:21

or hours. It's going to be a very

36:23

fast AI in collaboration

36:26

with quantum computers from which they

36:28

extract data and do

36:29

experiments

36:32

on simulations. It's likely going to be

36:34

the form. It's

36:37

not that useful to process large

36:39

amounts of data. It's like cryptography. Cryptography

36:42

is only a few bits of specification in Brexit.

36:45

For quantum simulation, you only specify

36:47

the position of the atoms and it solves

36:49

it.

36:50

If you have a gigantic amount of data, since

36:52

quantum computers are like megahertz,

36:54

it's not necessarily the

36:56

best approach to do large data. It's

36:59

really for some types of specific problem

37:02

which use supercomputers otherwise and

37:04

pass some scale even the supercomputers

37:06

cannot.

37:07

It's likely going to be

37:10

a collaboration between large quantum

37:12

computers and very powerful AIs, at

37:14

least for the 2030s. That's what... Then

37:17

they're going to be implemented into the Boston Dynamics

37:20

little robot dog things. Then

37:23

Terminator gets merged in and

37:25

then by 2032, we're mostly dead pretty much.

37:30

No, I'm not that pessimistic. I

37:33

think we'll get better material. Like hopefully we will

37:35

finally get like superconductors.

37:38

That's so crazy, man. This is a

37:40

weird world where it is. I'll tell you,

37:42

there's two kinds of people that are listening to

37:44

the show right now. Those who understand what you're

37:46

talking about and those who are glad

37:48

that there's somebody who's working

37:50

on this that does understand it even

37:52

if they don't. So appreciate you coming.

37:55

Can you imagine politicians in Washington

37:58

DC trying to think about this?

37:59

They still don't even know if you're on, on the internet,

38:02

if you're on Facebook, are you on the Facebook? I'm on

38:04

the Facebook. Is that my way? Say, what is

38:06

this quantum? Yeah.

38:09

I'm on the America online. So I must

38:11

be like AI. Cause

38:14

I see an A in there. Yeah. That's

38:19

another point also like CVDC are going, are

38:22

being built quantum is the same from the start. So

38:24

like, to, to, uh, like

38:27

keep, uh, like the space,

38:29

like the, the

38:30

private blockchains, public blockchains alive, like

38:32

past the CVDC age, I think like the quantum. I

38:35

had a thought about that. I was like, wait a second.

38:37

So you, so Bitcoin, you know, is

38:39

not quantum resistant. It gets cracked.

38:42

All these Bitcoin that are,

38:44

that are on these addresses that

38:46

nobody's nobody has. They've lost them. Boom.

38:49

Some government or some entity

38:51

snags, all those Bitcoins, crash

38:54

is Bitcoin. And then they promote their quantum

38:56

resistant CVDC. That's something

38:58

I thought about. Yeah. That's a, uh, that's

39:00

a screenplay, uh, right there, Travis.

39:03

I do that. That's a little short story that you

39:05

can write. Uh, you know what?

39:07

I, it it's all blowing

39:09

my mind, uh, but I'm glad that you

39:12

came on to explain it to us today.

39:14

I'm a long way from that Commodore 64 Hunchall

39:17

or the TRM. Yeah. It

39:20

was a TRS 80 with 4k of Ram.

39:22

Yeah. The Z 80 microprocess.

39:25

I was a supercomputer then you wouldn't

39:27

even, it was, you wouldn't even use that to

39:29

make toast today.

39:33

Well, Merci, monsieur. Thank you so

39:35

much for coming on today and sharing with us. We

39:37

do appreciate it.

39:40

So there you go. Maybe you're one of those

39:42

that has better understanding now, or maybe you're

39:44

one of those that's like, well, there's somebody

39:47

out there who does understand it because

39:49

I got to go play on my Nintendo and,

39:52

uh, you know, figure out how to win.

39:54

Zelda gets the more Zelda you gotta go knock

39:56

out. Yeah. And that's fine. They

39:59

either way, like. it's coming ready

40:01

or not and I'm glad that there's people and

40:03

and I'm sure that there are people on the Bitcoin

40:06

core team that are taking

40:08

this threat seriously and Are

40:11

looking at how do we make this chain

40:14

quantum resistant as well?

40:17

Or or it could be an attempt I

40:19

you know, I just look at this and I've always I always

40:21

sort of think that you know the

40:23

the sort of

40:26

Black ops in the military they always

40:29

have technology way before anybody

40:31

else tends to have it, right? The internet

40:33

they had that way before they released it to the

40:35

public AI has been something

40:37

that they've had that the public hasn't had

40:40

and so I just wonder like how Powerful

40:43

are the things behind the scenes that we don't

40:45

necessarily know, you know And

40:48

it's like this is what we think we know

40:51

But what do we really know is

40:53

going on behind the scenes? That's what I always

40:55

kind of think about and

40:56

so when I when I hear some, you

40:58

know crypto OGs kind of scoffing

41:01

at the idea that Oh quantum computing

41:03

is way farther away than anyone can even

41:05

possibly imagine and I go well

41:08

Consumer you know

41:11

technology possibly right me

41:14

But what's behind that black door

41:16

that we don't know and that's what we

41:18

don't know what we don't know So that's all I

41:20

know. I

41:21

Don't know what you even know let

41:23

alone what I don't know So, you know,

41:26

that's the the mantra here is that we don't

41:28

know but what do you know?

41:30

I I don't know. I don't know squat. I know

41:32

that we're gonna give away an NFT

41:34

to come out That's what you know, I know that

41:36

Lord Travis has been working on some cool quantum

41:39

NFT And you need to be a

41:41

member of the bad crypto nifty

41:43

club if you are not yet a member.

41:46

It's simple It's so easy go

41:48

to bad crypto dot uncut

41:50

dot network And you want to get the spinny

41:53

red NFT? It's so inexpensive

41:56

We just set a price of a couple bucks

41:58

on it so that the bot

41:59

don't take it and get the cool air drops.

42:02

You've already, if you don't have it yet, you've missed

42:05

many, many air drops, but

42:07

this is over, I think over 40 NFTs that

42:09

have been dropped, I think so far collectively in that

42:11

group, those wallet, corn utopia ones.

42:13

Yeah, that could be, that could be 10 of

42:15

those. And so I mean, but really, I mean,

42:18

we've been doing this now close to a year when

42:20

it comes down to not quite a year, but you

42:22

know, so we've been dropping quite a few little

42:25

NFTs along the way, when you get bad AI

42:27

and then the other bad media.io

42:29

products that we've got in there. So

42:32

I think what I saw, I think it was, I think it was

42:35

almost 40. Okay.

42:36

Well, whatever it is, you're

42:38

not getting them. If you don't have the bad crypto nifty

42:40

club NFT, so go get the spinny NFT.

42:43

It's red and black. It's got me and Travis

42:45

on it. And once that's in your wallet, you're

42:48

going to start getting these free air drops.

42:50

So I think you can even use a credit card now. You don't have

42:52

to have, I think you can.

42:54

Yeah. So they got it set up in the way. Yeah. Yeah, go

42:56

ahead. And I'll tell you this. If

42:58

you don't have, if you're not

43:00

yet on uncut, you will be. There

43:03

are some really interesting things that I cannot

43:05

yet reveal to you that we are aware

43:07

of that are happening there. And

43:10

we're aware, but you're not aware. So we can't tell

43:12

you don't stare. So beware. So

43:15

it's coming and you want to get this bad

43:17

crypto nifty club membership. Yeah. I

43:19

think it's like, they give it like this is as I think you

43:21

can say is that so if you're having

43:24

a theory of NFT of say board

43:26

apes or pudgy penguins or whatever, it

43:29

auto puts you in these communities.

43:31

And if you sell an NFT,

43:33

then you're no longer in that

43:35

community automatically, which is a lot different

43:37

than discord, but there's, but there's some other really

43:40

cool stuff that's going to be happening on this. And

43:42

we are the earliest of adopters bringing

43:44

you the good stuff. So jump on and so you

43:46

can have the ability to play around

43:49

and explore as we're creating fun, cool shit.

43:52

And one more big piece of news. Happy

43:54

anniversary. Sure. Lord Travis. This

43:56

is number six. It was July.

43:59

18th of 2017, that had

44:02

the first episode of

44:04

Bad Crypto podcast number

44:08

one came out. We've done countless

44:10

hours of the show since

44:12

countless live shows and events

44:15

and talk to friends. It's

44:17

unbelievable. We're still we're still connected.

44:20

And like, I know, fuck you, fuck you.

44:22

It's like, Wow, I still feel like there's been a

44:24

little bit of fuck you, but like not very little comparatively,

44:27

there's like about one Travis rant,

44:29

fuck you a year, but you got to deal

44:31

with and then it goes away. And it's like, all right,

44:33

well, you say you're

44:34

sorry. So

44:38

I think that we should do let's

44:40

do another NFT that will be

44:43

after the next episode that commemorates six

44:46

years of bad crypto.

44:48

Yeah. So that'll be another

44:50

airdrop another reason to

44:52

get the Bad Crypto Nifty Club

44:54

NFT at bad crypto.uncut.network uncut.network

44:59

you'll get that you'll be ready for it and

45:01

it will have everything that you need

45:04

so that you can officially

45:06

say that

45:26

the bad crypto podcast is a production of

45:29

bad crypto LLC. The content

45:31

of the show the videos and the website

45:33

is provided for educational informational

45:35

and entertainment purposes only. It's not

45:37

intended to be and does not constitute

45:40

financial investment or trading

45:42

advice of any kind. You shouldn't make

45:44

any decisions as to finances, investing,

45:46

trading or anything else based on this information

45:49

without undertaking independent due diligence

45:51

and consultation with a professional financial

45:54

advisor. Please understand that the trading

45:56

of Bitcoins and alternative cryptocurrencies

45:58

have potential risks. involved. Anyone

46:01

wishing to invest in any of the currencies or tokens

46:03

mentioned on this podcast should first

46:05

seek their own independent profession.