0:00

Hey, before we get started with this episode, if you're into

0:02

the future of digital collectibles, make sure you check

0:04

out the latest episode of The Nifty Show

0:07

at theniftyshow.com.

0:10

With the launch of the World Wide Web, people

0:12

and businesses have connected like

0:14

never before. Evolving technologies

0:16

such as AI and blockchain have

0:18

advanced our ability to get stuff done

0:21

faster and more efficiently. The

0:23

complexities and challenges of governance

0:25

have become more dramatic over time.

0:27

But since the standards boards agreed

0:30

on our current hypertext protocol

0:32

for internet data, we've not seen a

0:34

major advancement in online technology…

0:37

until now. The spatial web

0:40

is at our doorstep and it is a

0:42

complete game changer. Imagine

0:44

a 3D internet, where

0:47

the vision of the Internet of Things becomes

0:49

a reality. Now imagine this new

0:52

world, where power is given back to

0:54

the people and central authorities have

0:56

less of a say in how communities

0:58

operate. Today we've got an amazing

1:01

conversation with Dan Mapes, co-founder

1:03

of the Spatial Web, to discuss

1:06

all of this and more. Is the future

1:08

dystopian or utopian? We

1:11

happen to think it's bad cryptopian,

1:13

on this episode number 692 of the Bad Crypto Podcast.

1:18

3, 2, 1, 0, ignition.

1:29

Who's bad? Welcome

1:49

to the Bad Crypto Podcast. It's for the

1:51

crypto curious, the crypto serious, really

1:53

curious about all forms of emerging

1:56

technology. And Sir Lord Travis

1:58

Wright, I am so…

1:59

excited that we finally, finally

2:02

got Dan to agree to come

2:04

on the show. And I'll tell you this

2:07

interview is mostly him. He

2:09

has so much to say.

2:12

I know. I think the very first like 10

2:14

minutes of the interview, I don't even know if I've even said a word

2:16

yet. So like,

2:19

we're like, okay. And I'm going

2:21

to cut you off here, bro. Cause you got words. I'm going

2:23

to say a little something in here. I think I cracked the joke

2:25

in there, but no, all things aside, this

2:27

guy

2:28

is brilliant. And

2:30

really his definition of, you

2:33

know, web one, web two, where we're

2:35

moving. Like people say web three,

2:37

they throw that around, but really,

2:39

if you look at it, TCICP

2:42

was generation one of the internet, kind of

2:44

for the most part. HTTP was

2:46

internet two really. And now

2:48

here we are with coming up with HSTP,

2:52

which Dan's going to talk about, which is probably the true

2:55

web three. And so, I mean,

2:57

this is fascinating. So put your hats on,

2:59

sit back, listen, and put your

3:01

thinking hats on

3:02

because what you think you know about web three

3:05

might not actually be what you truly

3:07

know. And so we're going

3:09

to get right into it. And Travis, I think, well, while

3:11

this interview is playing, maybe you and I talk about

3:13

a special NFT to

3:15

commemorate this because I bet your creative juices

3:18

could, could flow around this. I got

3:20

no juices.

3:22

Right. Well, we'll see you guys after the interview. Here we

3:24

go.

3:28

We're

3:28

really excited about this interview because we've been telling

3:30

you guys about the next

3:33

iteration, the next protocol,

3:35

the next web for months

3:37

now. And we have been promising you

3:39

that the founder of versus

3:42

IO would be joining us. Well, guess

3:44

what? He's here. Mr. Dan Mapes

3:47

is in the house. Dan, thanks for joining us here

3:49

on bad crypto.

3:51

Uh, thanks guys. Great to have, good to be here.

3:53

Glad you have a good conversation

3:55

about all this.

3:56

This is, um, there's so

3:59

much to talk about. out here and you

4:02

are a man who is not short on words.

4:05

So what I want to do is I want to get to

4:07

the nut of what the spatial

4:10

web is all about and how

4:12

this is going to change everybody's life.

4:15

But I think the good place to start would

4:17

be with a little history. So why don't you give

4:19

us the reader's digest version

4:21

of who Dan Mapes is.

4:24

Oh yeah. I come from an engineering family. My grandfather

4:26

was a key engineer at General Motors

4:28

and patents and all that kind of thing. My dad's

4:31

an engineer at General Motors. And so

4:33

I grew up in an engineering family. And

4:36

but it was obvious the engine of my generation

4:38

wasn't going to be a car engine that was

4:40

going to be a computer engine. So, so

4:42

I focused on computer engineering, software

4:45

engineering, ultimately. And, you know,

4:47

did multiple degrees, bachelor's, master's,

4:50

and then was awarded a fellowship to

4:52

do my PhD in systems

4:54

theory. Expert

4:57

systems, AI, which was kind of a crude version

4:59

of AI in the 80s that was around, but nonetheless,

5:02

it got me really thinking about all this stuff.

5:05

And it was pretty obvious to me, even as

5:07

a student, that the ultimate

5:09

piece of software would

5:12

be software that could rewrite itself based

5:14

on what, what it's learning. And

5:16

so that would be a kind of an different kind

5:18

of an AI than an expert system, which

5:20

is what we're doing now and which even, which

5:23

is what really, what a large language model is where

5:25

you basically build a software machine and

5:28

you load it with information and then you

5:30

can query the machine and expert system.

5:32

It could be, I've got a seven year old

5:35

boy here with red dots all over his face

5:37

and running a light fever and the expert system

5:39

is probably measles. You know,

5:42

we're doing the same sort of thing with open AI

5:44

right now. Hey, tell me the history

5:47

of the Los Angeles and how it was founded and

5:49

blah, blah, blah. And it'll, it'll

5:51

give you something, you know? But these are machines.

5:55

That's not really, you know,

5:58

what the hell 9000. 1000 is or

6:01

data or charvices. They're

6:03

not really machines. They're really sentient

6:07

entities that really

6:09

are kind of like digital

6:11

organisms.

6:13

They're learning by the interaction

6:15

and the conversation they're rewriting themselves

6:17

as they go along. And so so

6:19

I got really interested in this in this area is called

6:22

auto poesis. A UT

6:25

a UT o po es is if

6:27

any money wants to Okay,

6:31

theoretical structure. What it really

6:34

stands for is

6:36

how animals self

6:40

evolved. So babies are born,

6:42

they don't have a very big world model

6:44

at the time, they world model

6:46

includes their mom in their room, maybe, then

6:48

as they get a little bit older, they're, they're

6:51

crawling around the house, they map the whole house,

6:53

and then they can walk, they can now they

6:55

go outside, and then they go ride a bike, they

6:57

can map the whole neighborhood. So they're self evolving.

7:00

We don't have to wait for GPT to to get

7:02

GPT three, while they build a whole new

7:05

kid. No, no, the kids are learning every moment

7:07

every day.

7:08

So that's what we want an AI to do. So,

7:11

so these are auto poetic software

7:14

structures. And I was studying

7:17

with Eric Yancha at the time, he's a

7:19

Austrian astrophysicist. And he was really,

7:22

he wrote a really cool book called design for evolution.

7:24

So it kind of infected me with the idea. And

7:27

then so it

7:29

looked like

7:30

where things would go would be

7:32

kind of a big internet

7:35

of virtual worlds.

7:38

Because why virtual because we have binocular

7:41

vision. So the interface should be

7:43

binocular. So we have depth perception, and

7:45

the software would be AI. So I

7:48

just called the project VRAI, BRE,

7:50

which stands for truth in French, and

7:53

very toss, you know, the whole thing. And so

7:56

I built a lab, instead of staying in

7:58

the university system. I built

8:01

a lab in Silicon Valley

8:03

and

8:05

to experiment on how we

8:07

could build auto

8:09

poetic virtual environments

8:12

and network them together in a really cool way.

8:15

And so we did experiments in networking. We

8:17

did the first summit meeting for the United Nations

8:19

with Nelson Mandela and Shimon

8:22

Peres. We did a lot of work

8:24

in data structures. We built the databases

8:26

for the Human Genome Project. We

8:29

did a lot of digital avatars. We

8:31

did Tony Hawk Pro Skater and

8:33

a lot of other big games. So

8:35

we were at the cutting edge and we kind

8:37

of copied MIT's media lab

8:39

and built a media lab in Silicon

8:41

Valley. But it was entrepreneurial and therefore

8:44

it could incubate ideas and then spin them

8:46

out as companies and then monetize

8:50

them in various ways. So

8:52

Gabe, who's CEO

8:55

of our company, came to work for me when he was 20

8:57

and Cap, who heads up

9:01

our development team, also

9:03

came to work for me. I actually graduated from USC and that

9:05

was 25 years ago. So

9:10

we kind of all kind of have been on this vision

9:13

quest together.

9:14

But it was impossible

9:16

to actually pull it off until

9:19

now.

9:19

And the reason is it has to

9:21

do with bandwidth and chip

9:24

speeds. So when the Internet was invented

9:27

in 1969, 1970, the idea was could we make a network of

9:33

different kinds of computers before the debt

9:36

computers wouldn't talk to IBM computers, they

9:38

were all siloed. Could we make a network

9:40

that allowed all the computers to talk to each

9:42

other? And so they came up with this idea of give

9:44

every computer an IP address and

9:47

then give it a protocol so they could send little

9:49

text files to each other. We call

9:51

that email. The computers

9:54

are unaware that I'm

9:56

sending you an email. The computer just feels like

9:58

it's sending a text file to your computer. That's all

10:00

it knows. And so that's really

10:03

all TCPIP enabled really was

10:05

these little text files to move around because

10:07

that's all the bandwidth that

10:09

could be handled at the time, both within

10:12

the computer itself, in terms of the chip

10:14

speeds and in terms of the network,

10:16

right? I mean, it was really slow in those days. And

10:18

then so by 1980, when the

10:20

PC revolution really started to take

10:23

hold, Apple hit a billion bucks and

10:27

then the IBM PC came out in 81. Well,

10:29

then email really

10:31

blew up really big and people

10:34

were buying modems and buying computers

10:36

and it was one of the big killer apps. You've

10:39

got mail. Yeah, exactly.

10:41

So then Tim came along and...

10:45

Tim Berners-Lee you're speaking of. Tim

10:47

Berners-Lee came along and he's there. So there were two paths

10:50

to go forward, either the AOL path,

10:52

where you get this CD-ROM and you're on

10:54

AOL's platform

10:56

or Tim Berners-Lee's path,

10:59

where there is no platform, there's a protocol.

11:01

Just like

11:02

the thing that created the original internet, TCPIP,

11:06

he said, hey, rather than go on to AOL's

11:09

platform to read the New York Times and Wall

11:11

Street Journal and check your stock prices

11:14

and send text

11:16

messages and emails to each other,

11:19

why don't we make a new protocol?

11:22

We'll make a protocol so anybody can make a webpage.

11:25

The bandwidth is faster now.

11:28

But it's still in 94, you could watch

11:30

a webpage download, progressive download, it

11:33

was really slow bandwidth. So you

11:35

could only just barely

11:37

do a formatted page, a

11:39

print with maybe a couple of small photos

11:41

on it. It took forever to download a photo.

11:44

Like you'd be like, what would you just download a photo? It's

11:46

gonna be the best photo ever.

11:48

Yeah, they'll do a little post-it-size photos. But

11:51

Jeff Bezos saw the future and he went, oh my God,

11:53

you know, there's 40 million people

11:55

now plugged into the global internet. It's

11:58

gonna go to 100 million and it's gonna for a billion.

11:59

I

12:00

can do something called e-commerce,

12:02

you know, and so so we

12:05

got the web You know, but

12:07

I was already Interested

12:09

in binocular vision, you know, we're

12:11

already doing 3d computer gaming and

12:14

so Right. So step

12:17

step one is connect all

12:19

the computers That's the machine level TCP IP

12:21

step to create the library of 2d

12:24

pages together that creates the global

12:26

library step three

12:29

So the 3d web

12:31

So we got 25 years now of 2d

12:33

web and 25 years of 3d

12:36

computer gaming on Xboxes and Playstations

12:39

and now we got enough bandwidth

12:41

that they can merge So now we can

12:43

have a 3d web,

12:44

but that requires a new protocol.

12:46

So

12:48

We couldn't do the web with a TCP

12:50

IP. We need a new protocol HTTP and

12:52

HTML You can't do a 3d web with

12:54

a hypertext transfer protocol because

12:56

that's about pages. So you need a

12:59

3d protocol so we still

13:01

we wrote the hyperspace Transaction

13:04

protocol and I love that that's actually

13:06

how I will describe it to people whether I like so what's the

13:08

spatial web? I go I'll we're interviewing this

13:10

dude Dan Mapes who's you know working on

13:12

building the next version of the internet

13:14

They're like Oh web 3 and it's like well Kind

13:18

of but not it's the next protocol

13:20

level above that and I love

13:22

that how you describe that It's so eloquent

13:24

when you think about it 25 years

13:27

of 2d text and web

13:29

protocol

13:29

with 25 years

13:32

of video games and all the little items

13:34

inside the video games and 3d and

13:36

now they're merging When you tell it to people

13:38

like that, they go. Oh I

13:41

get it It's

13:44

fascinating It's really what we

13:46

wanted to do in 1970, but the bandwidth

13:48

wasn't there Tim would have probably loved to do

13:51

it in 1990 But

13:53

the bandwidth wasn't there. We had to wait

13:55

We knew what it was but we had to wait

13:57

we couldn't start the company until 2018

13:59

because the bandwidth wasn't gonna be there until 2022 or 23 or 24. So

14:05

you got, obviously don't wait for it to get

14:07

there to start, Jim started working

14:09

on HTTP and the HTML

14:11

clear back in 1990 and they hit later. So

14:14

Gabe and I began whiteboarding in 2017

14:19

to get the architecture right and then founded

14:22

the company in 2018 that took it

14:24

public last year in 2022. And

14:27

now we're up to about a hundred people and

14:30

just a great group of PhDs

14:32

in our AI team, a great group

14:34

of 3D people. And so

14:36

we're actually realizing the 3D web and

14:39

we've got big projects going in Europe and five

14:42

cities. We worked with a number of big

14:44

fortune 500 companies here in the US.

14:47

And these are all early pilots

14:52

and I would say first

14:55

kind of installations. We are

14:57

profitable. I'm not profitable. We

15:00

are revenue positive. We're still spending more

15:02

than we're making because we're growing. But yeah,

15:05

so the company made it through the asteroid field and

15:09

HTTP and HTML are working and

15:11

we're installed in various kinds of

15:14

locations around the planet. Still

15:16

we're kind of

15:18

controlling everything because we're finishing the tools

15:21

but then we're gonna kind of do what Apple did with iOS.

15:24

So Apple had to, when they launched the iPhone,

15:27

it came with like 10 apps, messaging

15:30

and navigation and notes

15:32

and things like that. Apple had to build all those because

15:34

they built iOS but then they opened the app

15:36

store and said, you guys make the apps. And

15:38

then Uber and Twitter and everything else all popped

15:40

up, we're up to 5 million

15:43

apps now between Google and Apple worldwide

15:46

and all done by other people. Apple makes 70

15:48

billion a year in recurring

15:51

revenues every year from the app store. So

15:54

it's a really nice model. Everybody

15:56

wins, the app developers win because they've

15:58

got a great platform.

15:59

do market on Apple wins

16:02

because they take a small fraction from

16:04

everybody, but it all adds up to 70 billion

16:06

bucks. And so, um, so we

16:08

kind of followed that model as well. So we'll be

16:10

releasing our tools here in about a four

16:13

or five months. And then anybody can build

16:15

artificial intelligent. Okay. So

16:17

Dan, let me, let me let you grab some oxygen

16:20

for just a minute. Cause I, you,

16:22

you're such a depth of knowledge on this. And

16:24

I want to make sure, make sure that everybody's following

16:27

along here because I guarantee there are some

16:29

people,

16:29

cause this was me the first time

16:32

I heard it, that I heard 3d web

16:34

and I thought, is this a gimmick?

16:37

And what I want you to explain is not

16:39

only is this not a gimmick, but

16:42

this is where the web is going.

16:44

But how do you describe the

16:47

3d web? What, what does that mean?

16:51

Oh, it's so simple. Um,

16:53

you know, it really, it just, like Travis said, once

16:55

you kind of get it, it's just so obvious. Um,

16:58

we're just digitizing the world.

16:59

So, you

17:00

know, the first thing we did was create a network

17:02

where we could digitize communications and send

17:05

emails to each other. Then we digitized

17:07

all of our documents. They were all there. We had

17:09

to scan them in or rewrite them or whatever

17:11

and build web pages. So we got the largest

17:13

library in there. Now we're going to digitize our

17:15

cities like that image behind you, Joel,

17:18

right there. Well, why would you want to digitize

17:20

the city? Well, my gosh, emergency

17:22

services, traffic, every

17:24

kind of thing, you know, it just helps you manage

17:26

it. The eyes, once you've got a game,

17:28

once you, once you create a 3d model

17:30

of an entire city, you

17:32

can kind of gamify it. You can even tokenize

17:35

it. You can even reward people for doing things.

17:37

And you can manage the system better.

17:39

And, uh, all the traffic lights are all connected

17:41

and everything's networked. And, and you got

17:44

a, uh, big wreck on the road

17:46

over here, it automatically, you don't just

17:48

count on a ways to guide you

17:50

around the whole, the whole city's aware.

17:53

So, so really you, if you turn the entire planet

17:55

into a giant video game, would

17:57

it be accurate Dan to say that this

17:59

is.

17:59

the manifestation of the true

18:02

internet of things that we've heard about

18:04

for so many years? 100%

18:05

yeah. Let's be

18:07

honest. This is the internet we always wanted.

18:10

We just couldn't get there because the bandwidth wasn't

18:12

there. I mean that's why we did the 3D

18:15

games on playstations and Xboxes

18:17

because you need special chips and things

18:19

like that. But now we're watching Netflix

18:21

on our smartphones. We're playing Fortnite. I mean you know

18:24

so the bandwidth is finally there. Apples

18:26

just brought their headset out.

18:29

Oculus is selling a bunch of headsets. We're

18:31

going to see a flood of things. The thing we the

18:33

timing I think is mid 25 on

18:36

we enter the age of a 3D internet.

18:39

You know headsets will come down in

18:41

price. The new

18:44

applications will come out. There'll

18:46

be practical business applications. There'll

18:48

be government applications like smart

18:50

city stuff. There'll be entertainment applications.

18:53

There'll be health applications. I mean you know kind

18:55

of what we did with with the World Wide Web.

18:58

What's the World Wide Web good for? Oh well you can do commerce.

19:00

You can do you can learn things. You can you

19:03

know I mean you can socialize. Well

19:05

all that's going to go now in the 3D. I mean Facebook

19:08

took one look at it and they went oh

19:10

my god in the future people

19:12

are going to go to nightclubs with their friends

19:15

like in Ready Player One dressed really cool.

19:18

Great DJ doing their thing.

19:20

They're never going to want to come to a Facebook

19:23

page and send notes to each other

19:25

when they can be hanging out together in a virtual

19:27

world. So they changed their

19:29

name to meta. Obviously they were too early but

19:31

I think that will be proved right.

19:33

It is the right direction because it's

19:35

the AI plus the metaverse right.

19:39

The three things go together. You got to network

19:41

the worlds together. Imagine if if

19:44

the World Wide Web wasn't networked then you'd have

19:46

to just these siloed applications. You'd

19:48

have to go here and download it. Then you get out of there.

19:50

Then you have to go download this one. No you

19:53

don't get network effects when you have that. So the

19:56

web is so powerful because anybody

19:59

can build a web page. day and now

20:01

they're in the global network and

20:04

Google indexes them and now you can find them. And

20:06

so, so we just built all of that now

20:08

in 3D. So every website

20:10

will go to 3D, every app will go to an

20:13

AI app. So we're going to have a 3D

20:15

AI web over the next 25 years and

20:17

it's way beyond the gimmick. It's going to make everything

20:19

run faster, better, cheaper, and make

20:22

our lives better. Yeah,

20:23

it's really fascinating when you're looking at that. And that's

20:25

why I love your name versus is

20:27

because Joel and I have had this conversation for a long

20:30

time. It's not the metaverse. There's

20:32

a bunch of verses that are all being

20:34

connected, right? And

20:37

watching your presentation that you did at

20:39

in Sweden

20:41

a couple of weeks ago, you were talking

20:43

about how it cost like $300 million

20:47

to make chat GPT 2. And

20:49

then they have to make chat GPT 3 and

20:51

that costs another $300-400 million.

20:54

Then they want to do chat GPT 4 and

20:57

it's a whole new product. So they got to start

20:59

over and rebuild the infrastructure.

21:02

And what you guys are doing over there is doing active

21:04

inference,

21:05

which is a different type of AI,

21:07

which you can actually build upon

21:10

it, right? Where you can actually

21:12

grow. Here

21:13

it is. And now we add more to it

21:15

and it's going to grow. It would almost seem like chat

21:18

GPT 2 should

21:20

evolve into 3 into 4.

21:23

Not, you know, like, look at how fast Midjourney

21:26

has grown. Midjourney is only a little over

21:28

a year old. And here they are now about

21:30

to release Midjourney 6. And I love

21:33

it. The stuff that I can create on that is just

21:35

mind blowing. And now so

21:37

explain

21:39

what is active inference

21:41

because you were talking about active inference as

21:43

sort of the operational side of things.

21:46

And whereas active inference as sort

21:48

of the operational side of things. And

21:50

whereas AI now is more sort of on

21:52

the content side of things, but

21:55

active inference is where the nitty gritty

21:57

is really getting going for you guys. So I'd really like

21:59

you to explain.

21:59

that like I'm 12 years old.

22:03

Yeah so it's really again really simple. But

22:07

when it's really cool when you get when you get down into the

22:09

core of all these things they're just dead simple

22:11

ideas. So active

22:14

inference and open AI are completely the opposite

22:16

types of AI. They're completely night and

22:19

day and they and they can work together and that's

22:21

what's fun. So active

22:23

infra no open AI is basically

22:25

a large language model. So it's based

22:28

on neural net technologies and really what

22:30

that is is you take a computer and

22:32

you load it with billions of parameters

22:35

words if you will to keep it simple

22:38

and then you can ask the big box

22:41

tell me a story about the

22:44

making of a Boeing 727

22:47

or the history of Los

22:49

Angeles or whatever. It's a content

22:51

creation system and it looks

22:55

inside itself to answer your question.

22:59

But we don't do that. We're

23:01

engaged with the world. We're looking around.

23:03

I'm watching traffic in real time. I'm making

23:06

decisions. Oh wait I'm gonna stop the car here

23:08

because I want to have a coffee at this place. I'm making

23:10

decisions all in real time based on what's

23:12

going on in the world around me right now.

23:15

That is not what an LLM is doing.

23:17

An LLM is looking inside saying

23:19

what is everybody said about Paris

23:22

in my 900 billion parameters here you know and

23:26

I'll tell a story for you about Paris and

23:28

it'll hallucinate if it doesn't have the data

23:30

because all it's doing is mathematically word

23:33

matching doing kind of word completion

23:35

sentences. Whereas active inference

23:37

is actually looking at the world through

23:39

the network

23:40

through through the IoT

23:43

devices it can see the

23:45

city in real time it can

23:47

see the factory in real time it

23:49

can see the hospital in real time

23:52

it can see your body in real time

23:55

whatever it's looking at and so suddenly

23:57

it can make more accurate prediction

23:59

and decisions than an LLM

24:02

where it's looking inside as stuff that

24:04

was loaded into it maybe a year ago that's

24:07

now maybe even out of date. So a

24:09

very completely different model. And so what

24:12

Active Inference does is the first

24:15

non-machine software.

24:18

All of these software up there now has been

24:20

no different than a lawnmower. I buy

24:22

a lawnmower, I buy a laptop, I buy

24:24

a car. The car doesn't get better by

24:26

me driving it. I have to buy a new car every

24:29

two years to upgrade, just like

24:31

GPT-2 or GPT-3. Whereas

24:34

with a human, if I

24:36

don't see you for six months and I come back and

24:38

see you and you're a 12 year old, you're smarter

24:40

than you were six months ago. You know more, you've

24:43

learned some things. You went to camp, you

24:45

learned how to swim, you did all this stuff. There

24:47

are no, you know, it's an ongoing evolutionary

24:49

process. So with Active

24:52

Inference, it's the first AI

24:54

that's organic.

24:57

Active Inference also AI,

24:59

right? Active Inference

25:01

is also AI. So this sounds

25:04

or could sound incredibly dystopian.

25:07

Like you're saying everything is being mapped in

25:09

real time. That can be a little scary

25:12

for a lot of people. So how

25:15

will this new protocol work

25:18

in a way that the powers

25:21

of this world that like to centralize

25:23

and have power over others won't

25:25

lord over us? How

25:27

has this solved that problem?

25:29

There's two quick answers to

25:32

that. Number one, AI is coming at

25:34

us a thousand miles an hour, whether we like it or not. So

25:37

if we don't do this, somebody else

25:39

is doing, millions of people

25:41

are working on AI all over the world, from India to China,

25:44

Europe, US, Japan, everywhere, right? Everybody's

25:46

working on AI, right? And so

25:49

what we did is we brought together an

25:51

extraordinary team from

25:54

University College London, which

25:56

is where Google DeepMind originally came from,

25:59

12 years ago.

25:59

ago. We

26:00

got Dr. Carl Priston,

26:03

our chief scientist. He's the number one neuroscientist

26:06

in the world. And we're building in

26:08

lots of protection around data

26:10

privacy and other kinds of issues

26:12

like that. And so we have self sovereign

26:14

identity for people that understand what

26:16

that is, we have zero knowledge proofs, all

26:19

these kinds of things built in right

26:21

at the core of the protocol. So it's by

26:23

design by default right at the core of the whole

26:25

thing. So we think it's a web that gives

26:28

us much of its GDPR compliant from

26:30

day one, it gives us much more compliance

26:33

with the laws and rules. And,

26:36

and because we wrote the protocols, it

26:39

has a chance of becoming the dominant

26:42

way the web will work going forward, which

26:44

is to correct the big three problems

26:46

of the existing web. The big three problems

26:49

of the existing worldwide web are everything

26:51

is hacked. Everything you

26:53

do is tracked. And you can't tell

26:56

what's real and what's fake.

26:57

So hacking, tracking and faking are the big three,

26:59

you don't, you don't address those before

27:01

you do the spatial web, then you're just making the

27:03

problem bigger.

27:05

And so things like blockchains

27:07

and other DLT's and new

27:09

kinds of data structures help us with

27:11

the hacking. I mean, everybody's trying to hack the Bitcoin

27:14

blockchain right now. There's $600 billion

27:16

worth of Bitcoin on

27:18

there and they haven't been able to

27:21

hack. So if you look at it historically in technology

27:24

evolution terms, Bitcoin is

27:26

worth it just to show just as

27:28

a to develop hacker proof

27:30

ideas, you know, then

27:34

tracking, of course, with self sovereign identity

27:36

and zero knowledge proofs, we cut down on the,

27:38

you can't really do the the surveillance

27:42

capitalism game anymore, because

27:44

you own your data in a self sovereign

27:46

identity environment, you have a data vault, you own your

27:48

data, you can sell your data if you want.

27:51

And there will be data exchange that you can sell your

27:53

data through, but you can strip your name off of

27:55

it. And Tesla would love to buy the data just

27:58

from your car, they don't need to know that it's travel. of

28:00

Joel's car, they just want to

28:02

see the largest fleet of Teslas in real

28:05

time. They understand battery performance,

28:07

brakes, and tires, and how the cars

28:09

are performing. It helps their engineering for developing

28:12

better versions of the car in the future. So

28:15

we killed two

28:17

of the birds there

28:20

with these two technologies. And then the

28:23

AI being networked. So we don't have a

28:25

big central box of AI. We

28:27

don't even make AI. We make AI

28:29

tools

28:29

that allowed anybody anywhere

28:32

in the world to make an AI app. So if you're a

28:34

nutritionist, you can make an AI app around

28:36

nutrition. If you're a teacher of

28:39

French history, you can make an AI app around

28:41

French history. And so instead of having one- How

28:43

does that work? I think that's confusing to people.

28:45

Like, oh, anybody can make their own

28:47

little active inference thing? Because

28:50

you build the tools. How does that work? Just

28:53

like the app store and just like the World Wide

28:55

Web. Really? Okay. And

28:57

so how do we do it on the World Wide Web? So Google

28:59

goes and goes, well, there's PageRank.

29:02

And so even though there's maybe 5,000 websites

29:05

to talk about hotels in Bali, here

29:07

are the top 100 that you're probably going

29:09

to probably go to. And same

29:12

thing on the app store. Things are rated and that

29:14

kind of thing. And so there'll be Yelp scores

29:16

on these apps and the AIs

29:18

will be aware of it. But the point is you have

29:21

a knowledge graph that you can create. So

29:24

the AI isn't built by a company.

29:26

It's built by millions of people just like

29:28

the web pages. While we're having this

29:29

conversation, people are building, loading

29:32

web pages up in India, China, all

29:34

over the world, because it's what you

29:36

can do. People are building apps while we're sitting

29:38

here. So we want to- And that's that hyperspace modeling

29:40

language, that hyperspace

29:42

transaction protocol that you've built?

29:45

We enable that. It enables, and then we have tools

29:47

that sit on top of that called Puzm.

29:50

And that allows you then to grab like an app

29:52

builder and build an AI app and

29:54

load it up. And then you can monetize

29:57

that.

29:58

It's fascinating.

30:00

So yeah, so we don't we don't build AI,

30:03

we build the tools to enable the world to

30:05

build AI.

30:06

And that's the way the worldwide web got

30:08

built. That's the way the app store got built over. People

30:11

need to understand cosm, this platform

30:13

you built. So if you want to build something you have

30:15

to go inside cosm, understand

30:17

and learn that and then you can build whatever you want to

30:19

build through that. Just like iOS. Yeah,

30:21

yeah, you don't really have to understand cosm

30:23

you just build on top of it, the tools that you

30:26

can cause them. You just take the tools

30:28

that I helps you build something pretty fast and light. Ultimately,

30:31

it'll be a no code environment. You just talk

30:33

to the AI and build the app that way. But

30:35

basically,

30:36

it's a way of downloading the knowledge that you have

30:38

your team as your company has into

30:41

an app that now has AI in

30:43

it that's evolving and then all the apps because

30:45

they're all connected through the protocol. Just

30:48

like the web pages are, they can all talk to

30:50

each other. So they're learning from each other, you know,

30:52

and they're evolving individually and

30:54

then they're evolving collectively. So we

30:56

call that collective intelligence. So

30:58

then probably you'll have something kind of like

31:00

Jarvis that's your personal assistant

31:03

and it has access to all of the apps.

31:06

So to

31:08

to let people know and just to prove

31:11

that this is coming, the IEE

31:15

is the board that the

31:17

Standards Association, right? These are the people

31:19

that approve and say, okay, this

31:21

is the protocol that we're all going to work

31:23

off of. And that's what happened with, you

31:25

know, a lot of technologies we have, but HTTP

31:28

protocol is one of the IEE

31:31

standards. Right, right. So

31:33

you guys, this has already

31:36

been run by IEE, right?

31:38

This is this HSTP. Now it's

31:40

owned by IEEE.

31:43

What we do is the way Tim did

31:45

it, and we just copied all the brilliant

31:48

people before us.

31:49

TCPIP is not owned by a company.

31:52

It's an open standard, just like electricity,

31:54

you know, no one owns 110 AC. It's

31:58

a description by the IEEE. download

32:00

it. And if you go to P2874, you'll see the

32:02

spatial web protocol

32:04

there. P2874, you type that into the search engine

32:08

there. Anyway, so yeah, what we

32:10

did is we wrote the original protocol, then

32:12

we then we create an IEEE

32:15

committee, I think there's 200 companies now

32:17

in the committee, companies like Microsoft

32:19

and others are on the committee. And then we,

32:21

everybody raises their hand and said, Well, you

32:24

know, the way you're handling the ID structure

32:26

here, that might be better if we did this. And so

32:28

then you go through these drafts, as

32:30

we're already entering the third draft after the

32:32

third draft, I think we've done two drafts

32:34

already that have all been voted in. Now we're

32:37

getting a little fine little fine little final

32:39

little corrections. So I think we'll

32:41

have the final third vote probably here in

32:44

the next four to six months. And

32:46

then we'll go to full release of

32:48

the protocol. So it's an IEEE protocol,

32:50

you know, somebody has to start building

32:53

it, just like TCP IP or HTTP,

32:55

but ultimately, you give it to the standards body,

32:57

and then the committees around

32:59

the standard annually make

33:02

little upgrades to it. So like IPV4,

33:04

now we're at IPV6, and things

33:06

like that. So we were so that's,

33:09

that's the whole protocol side of the house. We

33:11

let go control of that we sit on the committee

33:14

like everybody else, but we don't control

33:16

it anymore. Otherwise, it would be our operating system.

33:18

But no, it's an open protocol free to

33:20

be used by anybody, anywhere in the

33:22

world. And anybody can raise their hand and go, we

33:24

think that should be done a little better if

33:27

you handle your, your addressing

33:29

structure this way.

33:29

And if it's voted in, then we all

33:32

go up with it together. So I'm gonna raise my

33:34

hand right here. And I'm gonna say so. So are

33:37

the URLs gonna be different?

33:39

Because I know that it's not HTTP, it's gonna

33:42

be HTTP slash slash or

33:44

whatever. But it's not gonna be google.com.

33:46

It's gonna be something else, right? That's right. What

33:48

are URLs gonna look like? So you don't lose

33:51

you don't lose the current web, just like

33:53

when we got to the smartphones, and we got apps,

33:55

we still use the web, we still use

33:58

email. So everything we've ever

33:59

done, we still use. But it turns

34:02

out 80% of our time is in the new

34:04

thing. So 80% of our time is spent

34:06

on the smartphone. But we still go and

34:08

surf the web and and

34:10

buy things from Amazon because it's easier to

34:12

do sometimes from the big screen. We still

34:15

send emails to each other. So we'll

34:17

still have all of the old stuff

34:19

we all had. But 80% of our time will

34:21

be spent in the new spatial web because that's

34:24

really where the action is.

34:25

And that the spatial web. So this is

34:27

spatial web foundation dot o RG,

34:30

of course, links to this will be in the show notes. This

34:32

is the technology that you've basically

34:35

given away, right? You don't own

34:37

this. So what is the foundation?

34:40

And what is versus foundations

34:43

just like W3C, web

34:47

foundation, it just promotes the use of the

34:49

protocol.

34:50

So it's there to educate people about

34:52

the protocol and but it has no control

34:55

over the protocol. It's an IEEE standard.

34:57

And then versus builds the tools that

34:59

sit on top. So if we look at the World Wide Web, you

35:02

have HTTP and HTML and

35:04

you could build an Amazon website

35:07

or e-commerce website in HTML. But most

35:09

people don't. They use a tool like Shopify

35:12

or Wix or WordPress

35:14

or something. And the tool helps them build

35:16

a website much faster and and

35:18

it generates the code and all that. So we

35:21

build tools, like Cosm, that

35:23

sit on top of the protocol that allow

35:25

you to rapidly build protocol

35:27

compliant apps.

35:29

You don't need it. You can do you can do them

35:31

directly in HTML, but the

35:34

tools make it easier. You know,

35:36

are people going to be accessing those? So say I got my

35:39

smartphone, but I don't have a headset

35:41

yet. Right. I haven't bought the Vision

35:43

Pro. It doesn't exist yet for us to

35:45

get. But I do have a quest. But let's just say, like, people

35:48

can still utilize this 3D version

35:50

of the Internet through their mobile device. And

35:53

that just pops up as an app. Or

35:55

do you have to have the binocular vision,

35:58

the goggle VR goggles, AR goggles? of

36:00

some sort to access this new web. Now,

36:02

you think about computer gaming.

36:05

All the 3D computer gaming that

36:07

we've had for the last 25 years, we're

36:09

actually viewing it on a 2D screen. But

36:12

if you're a gamer, you're experiencing

36:15

it in 3D. You're moving around. You're

36:17

moving your character around. You're running Gears

36:19

of War, World of Warcraft, whatever. You're

36:21

doing all this stuff, right? And you're thinking

36:24

in 3D, but you're seeing it on a 2D

36:26

screen. If you've got glasses, it's more immersive

36:28

and even more powerful. But

36:31

it's like Avatar the movie. You can go see

36:33

it in 3D. I'm X,

36:35

but you can also watch it on your

36:38

television in 2D. Yeah. I was talking

36:40

to Joel. I was like, dude, this new Legend

36:42

of Zelda game is so crazy. I was like,

36:45

I can't even wait until those types of

36:47

games are completely immersive

36:49

in the digital world. You can walk around because

36:51

you can't. They're 3D worlds

36:53

in a 2D environment, but a 3D

36:55

world in a 3D environment is going to

36:57

be so sick. And I think once you

37:00

get the

37:01

4K, 8K resolution

37:03

or whatever up there, so you don't... Some

37:05

people, you put that goggle on, you're like, oh,

37:07

you get a little seasick. You can do it maybe 30 minutes

37:10

and you're like, I got to take this thing off. But the

37:12

quality is getting so good now that you're

37:14

going to...

37:15

We're going to be able to tap into these

37:18

worlds and not be able to tell reality

37:20

from virtual reality. They're getting

37:22

so crazy.

37:23

No. And they interviewed some

37:26

kids that played World of Warcraft even eight or 10 years

37:28

ago. And for

37:29

them, it isn't a versus kind of thing.

37:33

They treat World of Warcraft as one of their

37:35

realities. They go and hang out with their friends

37:37

there, just like they would if they were. That's true.

37:39

So it's more, I think, it's a

37:41

generational thing. People

37:43

that are not gamers, they're

37:46

always trying to

37:47

manipulate

37:49

the interface and their controllers

37:51

is kind of difficult. But a real gamer, the interface

37:54

is completely of one with them. As they

37:56

think, they're just hitting the buttons without

37:58

even... It's almost like walking.

37:59

And so they're native to

38:02

it. So I think kids growing

38:04

up with these 3D metaverse

38:06

environments with AI in them, it'll

38:09

just seem like another, you know,

38:11

we kind of have two realities right now. We have outside

38:14

and we have inside. When you go inside, you're in usually

38:16

a virtual world. Some architect built that building

38:18

and you're inside it. It's got artificial

38:20

lighting and air conditioning. You're already in a virtual

38:23

world, but we don't call it a virtual world. We just call

38:25

it inside. And so I think this

38:27

is the third space now. I like

38:30

that. I like the way you phrase that. So

38:33

let's go back to AI for a moment, because

38:35

a lot of people are frightened,

38:38

even though it's coming and there's no stopping it.

38:41

And governments are trying to figure

38:43

out how do we regulate

38:46

all this? You came out with a

38:48

press release, I had a report in it, versus

38:52

Denton's US and the Spatial Web Foundation

38:54

announced collaboration on Landmark Industry

38:56

Report, the future of AI governance.

39:00

How does this technology

39:02

solve this AI problem

39:05

so that the governments of the world not

39:07

only don't have to think about

39:10

how they're gonna regulate all this,

39:11

but don't have the power to

39:13

because the power belongs to the people.

39:16

Yeah, 100%. By the way, that

39:19

was the announcement that we were developing. Now

39:21

we've released that document. Okay. That's

39:23

available from our website, versus.ai or

39:26

versus.io,

39:27

either one. But you can now

39:29

read that document. And so basically

39:31

what we're saying is, is that this is

39:34

a networked environment now. And

39:36

so we can actually develop guardrails

39:38

and standards for it just like we

39:40

did with the World Wide Web. If you

39:43

build a terrorist website on the World Wide Web,

39:45

you'll get reported

39:46

and people, and the ISP will take

39:49

it down and Google will

39:51

find it in the indexing. So we've

39:53

got a new method now for AI where

39:55

we can identify malevolent AI applications.

39:58

And so, But it's all right

40:00

here in the future of global AI governance. I recommend

40:03

everybody read it. And we

40:05

partnered with Denton's, the number one law firm in the

40:07

world. And so what

40:10

our technologies can do is they can actually read

40:13

normal English and convert that into like

40:15

Python code and make

40:18

AI applications based on what

40:21

we set the rules and laws to be.

40:23

So when a government

40:25

passes a law, then you

40:28

can't fly a drone above 1,500 meters,

40:33

or you can't drive

40:36

a car into the core of the city on

40:40

Wednesdays between 2 and 5. Then

40:43

the AI's can all read that law now. So

40:45

now we've got a link between the

40:48

government passing rules and the

40:50

way for the AI's to actually honor

40:52

those rules so

40:53

that they're part of it. But it's a

40:55

big work there. And everybody's

40:58

learning. The European

41:01

Union, the US, and different

41:03

groups are all building AI compliance

41:05

models. So this is our contribution

41:08

to the conversation on how you could

41:10

implement it at global scale.

41:12

I want to ask around this because I find it fascinating.

41:15

So one of the reasons Joel and I even got into

41:17

crypto originally when we were having

41:20

conversations around it, but there was this project

41:22

that we were working on and we were going to advise called Deep

41:24

Sea, S-E-E, where we wanted

41:26

to do a deep sea into every topic, sort

41:29

of like a Reddit version, but then going in

41:31

and giving it a truth score type

41:33

of a thing. It's like, all right, this author

41:36

right here looks like they're beholding

41:38

the CNN. It's a leftist publication.

41:41

Pfizer's their sponsor.

41:42

They're talking pro-vaccines because

41:45

this is connected to that and this. And so

41:48

their perspective might be jaded because

41:50

of who's funding them, et cetera, et cetera. And

41:53

then the guy decided he wanted to build a YouTube

41:56

version and then they ran out of funds and whatever. But

41:58

the whole thought has always been.

41:59

around how can we improve the accuracy

42:02

of information available on the internet when you

42:05

have so many governments who are trying to censor

42:07

right? Oh, we don't want this. Do you guys to

42:09

see this true? This is a truth. We don't want you to

42:11

know that's an inconvenient truth. So let's

42:14

put a spin on it. We'd rather that you have

42:16

this narrative or this propaganda. So

42:18

how do you navigate that in

42:20

a way one that the citizens

42:22

get more pure information and to

42:25

you don't piss off the governments and working

42:27

with these smart cities? Or is that

42:29

too? Is that even irrelevant? You don't care.

42:32

How do citizens which

42:34

we care about get that good information

42:36

that we know it's truthful?

42:39

Yeah, I mean, probably remember

42:41

from the Daily Show, you know, they came up with

42:43

this idea of truth truthiness,

42:45

you know, right, right.

42:47

And I think what we're gonna see

42:49

is that like a truthiness score

42:51

kind of a maybe a red, yellow, green

42:53

model where green is like highly

42:56

verified yellows kind of like, well, you

42:58

know, be cautious and the red is

43:00

like, Hey, this shit is like really dangerous, you know,

43:04

and who determines that? That's the thing.

43:07

Because it turns

43:09

out like if we get to ask in like

43:12

in 2020, anybody who talked against vaccines

43:14

and COVID like, Oh, that person's red score

43:17

is untruthful. And then it comes out. Oh,

43:19

wait, they were actually truthful. So how

43:21

does that how do you include that in this in the

43:23

equation? No,

43:25

just speaking personally, I am a

43:27

big believer in evolution. And

43:30

so we you know, just

43:32

even genetic evolution on the planet,

43:34

the way we've grown from single cell organisms

43:37

to evolution, it's called mimetic evolution, sometimes

43:39

memes, and how we

43:41

went from bows and arrows to starships,

43:44

you know, going to Mars, you know, and

43:46

so we don't have to solve

43:49

every problem up front. We're smart

43:51

people went and invented the car, they didn't put

43:53

seat belts in originally, and then people started going

43:55

through the windshields and we went, Oh, wait, why don't

43:57

we put windshield? Why don't we put seat belts in? Even

44:00

better, why don't we put an airbag in? And then so

44:03

I think as we watch how people

44:05

are using the system, we start to then

44:07

adapt to the problem areas.

44:10

But what's cool about the web

44:12

is it is a big open

44:14

system. So it does allow groups

44:18

to form over their own ideas and

44:20

that kind of thing. There are some obvious

44:22

things. We don't allow child pornography.

44:25

We don't allow terrorism and things like that. But

44:27

still, there's a wide variety

44:29

of ideas being shared on the World Wide Web. There

44:32

are. Even during the vaccine, there were people

44:34

that were against vaccines. There

44:36

were people that were for it. And both sides could

44:38

argue it out. And they were argued out on talk shows

44:41

as well. So I think

44:42

what you want is the forum. You want the market

44:44

square where everybody can have this, have

44:47

it out. You know what I mean? And over

44:49

time, we learn and evolve. I mean,

44:51

you know, I look at the things that didn't

44:54

exist 500 years ago. And

44:56

we take for granted electricity, cars

45:00

and airplanes. You bring anybody here from 500

45:02

years ago, you're like, what are you people? 260 years

45:05

ago with the very first industrial revolution.

45:07

That's what always blows my mind away, Dan. I

45:10

look at this and I go, the Industrial Revolution

45:12

started in what? 1760 or whatever it was. Here

45:16

we are 260 years. We're

45:18

in the fourth Industrial Revolution in 260

45:20

years. What

45:22

about like a civilization that's maybe it's

45:24

got a billion years on us or something. So

45:27

the technology of where we've come to now is

45:29

mind blowing. But you can just see that

45:31

we're just still the tip of the iceberg.

45:34

Well, exactly right, Travis. And it's

45:37

this idea of exponential growth. When you're on

45:40

a network and you've got the collective

45:42

intelligence of humanity all coming together,

45:44

you can get maybe 200 years of development in 50 years

45:47

now. And

45:49

so by, say, in our terms,

45:51

in our lifetimes, 2075 might be as radically different

45:55

from today as 200 years ago

45:58

would be to today now. are we

46:00

are to those people because quantum computing

46:02

is coming in big time. Google

46:05

just had a 70 qubit there 70

46:07

qubit quantum computer the other day just

46:09

knocked off a supercomputer would

46:12

have taken 43 years to do something and they did

46:14

it in under a minute or something. You

46:17

know, yeah, so this stuff is all

46:19

coming. I think I think this is probably

46:21

a Renaissance. We're

46:23

probably entering the from 2020 to 2050

46:25

will probably be viewed historically as a

46:29

period where we went kind of from

46:33

like that. We're doing

46:35

a serious quick up level here and

46:40

we're going to have a VR AI

46:42

global nervous system that's

46:44

helping us monitor and run everything and

46:46

probably a new kind

46:49

of global

46:49

currency based on tokenization.

46:52

I mean, there's a lot of stuff that we can't

46:54

fully predict, but we can see the seeds of

46:57

them here. Yeah, I'm curious. I want your opinion

46:59

on this Dan. You know, you mentioned tokenization.

47:01

This is the bad crypto podcast

47:04

and while we are futurists cover all things

47:06

in the future. I'm curious. Where

47:08

do you personally believe cryptocurrency

47:11

Bitcoin tokenization fits

47:14

into all of this? Yeah,

47:16

I kind of look at it from a large

47:18

broad historical perspective. And so

47:21

in general, if we look at

47:23

it, in history, we've kind of got these

47:25

big three now four kind

47:28

of main eras of human

47:30

existence, the hunter gatherer era,

47:32

couple hundred thousand years, at least maybe 250,000 years. Then

47:34

the ag

47:36

era, really the last 5000 years.

47:40

And we're still we still have a lot of ag. And

47:43

then as Travis pointed out the last

47:45

two 300 years

47:46

we've been in the industrial era. And

47:48

now we're leaving the industrial age, we're

47:50

entering a global network

47:52

economy. And so each age has

47:55

its governance structures, have its monetary

47:57

systems, everything else. So what we see is that we're not going

47:59

to

47:59

see with modern finance in

48:02

New York and London and other

48:05

places around the world and the use of fiat

48:07

currencies by nation states is very

48:09

tied into the industrial age. As

48:12

we move into networked native

48:15

economies, which will probably be 10 to 100

48:18

times larger than our current industrial

48:20

economy, well then of course you're going to start using

48:23

native currencies. And those native currencies

48:26

would be some form of a crypto type

48:28

currency or something like that. So

48:30

whether they're central bank digital

48:32

currencies or whether they're independent

48:36

cryptocurrencies based on algorithms

48:39

that are not able to be manipulated

48:41

by any central authorities, they're probably going

48:43

to coexist. We'll probably have

48:46

things like Bitcoin and Ethereum that handle

48:48

a lot of commercial activities. We

48:50

may use central bank digital currencies

48:53

for our short-term day-to-day

48:55

interactions because they're really handy. But

48:58

I think we're going to have a kind of a hybrid environment

49:00

going forward, but crypto is going to have a huge

49:03

part to play in the digital economy,

49:05

no doubt about it.

49:07

That's the protocol

49:09

for the finances through the new

49:13

world, right? So it's like that's one of the things

49:15

we all have a smartphone. Why wouldn't we all have

49:17

digital money? Why do I need to go stand in line

49:19

at a bank? I think the biggest

49:21

problem for us to consider is how do we

49:23

get an uncancellable

49:25

bank account in some way, because these new CBDCs

49:28

can be programmable and they can literally

49:30

say, you know what, Dan, I don't really like your

49:32

opinion. We're going to go ahead and just shut off your account.

49:35

They did help. They did that with Kanye, with a regular bank

49:37

account. We don't like what you have to say.

49:39

We're kicking you off. So I think those are

49:41

always a challenge with that. But then again, you look at

49:43

this and you go, man, what's going to be that

49:46

VR AI sort of crypto?

49:49

And let me ask you about this. Worldcoin

49:51

just came out a couple of days ago, right?

49:54

Powered by Sam

49:55

Altman, the guy who's open AI.

49:57

He's building this thing.

49:59

And Andreessen Horowitz is

50:02

behind it as well. It's literally

50:04

came out of the shoots and was worth $250 million. That's

50:08

because those are the kind of things to me that seems

50:10

to be they should probably be more regulated.

50:13

Like I don't even know how we can circumvent Americans

50:15

to be able to invest in this thing, but

50:17

the big VCs can. And then the next

50:20

thing, you know, boom, it's worth $250 million,

50:22

hasn't done anything yet. And there's

50:24

a problem with that is the

50:27

sort of overreaching sort

50:29

of worldwide

50:29

vision that they have with their sort

50:32

of crypto, it's kind of got some nefarious

50:34

aspects behind it. I don't know

50:36

all the details of it. I'm doing research before I

50:39

do a video on it. But what do you know

50:41

about Worldcoin so far? It's the new chat, GPT,

50:43

AI sort of

50:45

crypto. They want to power

50:47

all the things with it, which seems a little

50:49

strange to me. One of the things I love about

50:51

Silicon Valley and technology in general

50:54

is the table is open.

50:56

Anybody can come to play. And

51:00

so,

51:01

as I said earlier, it's really an evolutionary

51:04

model.

51:05

And so when we look at evolution, how

51:07

do animals succeed and

51:09

other animals fail?

51:10

And so what we're using now, the latest

51:13

theoretical structures on understanding how

51:16

the path of evolution evolves is

51:19

evolutionary game theory,

51:20

which is even tied a little bit into thermodynamics,

51:23

the animal that uses the least amount of energy to

51:26

be able to extract out of that system. In

51:28

other words, the most efficient is wins

51:30

the niche. And so let 1,000

51:33

coins come to the table, and

51:36

already have even, and let the top 100

51:39

be emerged

51:40

and maybe Worldcoin

51:42

will have a five-year run and then is replaced

51:45

by Galactic Coin, I don't know. But

51:49

with atomic swaps, you may not really even

51:51

care. You can use different coins

51:53

for different purposes. You're using

51:56

Ripple and ETH and all these different things for

51:58

different purposes right now.

51:59

So if you got atomic swaps, then you don't

52:02

even really even care because they're just moving back and

52:04

forth between anything you want, even from

52:06

fiat, even central bank digital currencies

52:08

over to Bitcoin, whatever. You're just atomic swapping

52:11

as you want and let

52:13

the best player win. I mean, I don't, I don't

52:15

really care as long as,

52:18

I mean, you know, two, two, two kids in a

52:20

garage there in, in,

52:23

in Cupertino, you know, developed Apple. I

52:25

mean, you know, and they even took a deal with

52:27

Packard and then, Hey, look what we made. That's

52:29

cute. Just, of course, you

52:31

guys just do whatever you want with it. And

52:33

now it's $3 trillion. 3 trillion.

52:36

Can I foresee there being a versus coin of some

52:39

sort down the road? Is that something? No,

52:41

no, no, no, no. What are you going to say? Versus

52:43

coin. Our, our, our, our developers

52:46

would use our tools to develop new

52:48

kinds of AI coins. Cause

52:51

we want an AI, we want an AI coin in

52:53

the future, you know, so it can self-regulate

52:55

and do various things that when it's got

52:57

self. So all, all themly, what's going

52:59

to happen

52:59

is

53:02

you're going to have intelligent systems

53:04

and you're going to have dumb systems and ultimately

53:06

the intelligence systems are going to win. Why

53:08

do mammals out function reptiles?

53:11

Because we have a bigger neocortex. We're

53:13

just smarter. And so dolphins

53:16

can take out sharks because they work

53:18

as a team and they poke them in the sides with

53:20

their beaks and the shark gets

53:23

killed or runs away. You know, so intelligence

53:26

is the name of the game guys. And so

53:28

intelligent coins will be part of the future

53:31

of what we're doing

53:32

in intelligent regulation. So

53:34

basically we're going to have, we have a nervous system

53:36

right now in our bodies that

53:39

is regulating all kinds of things while

53:41

we're having this conversation. It's digesting my

53:43

food. It's maintaining my body

53:46

at 98.6. So it's

53:48

if I'm getting too hot, it'll cause me

53:50

to perspire. If I'm getting cold, it'll cause

53:52

me to look for a blanket or something or go

53:54

inside. So we

53:56

have self-regulation built into

53:59

our system.

53:59

And we are unaware of it because we

54:02

just said, hey, look,

54:03

you got it. You just do it now. Take

54:05

care of all that. So I can have a conversation with Travis

54:07

and Joel. That's what's coming. We're

54:10

going to have a global nervous system that really helps

54:12

us manage our climate, our

54:14

finances, other kinds of things. And

54:17

look, no cell in my body gets left behind

54:19

when I eat. I mean, I don't have

54:21

to worry about the cells in my feet being too

54:23

far away from the heart. And I know that the

54:25

body's figured all that out. So you can

54:27

see what's coming. No one's going

54:29

to be left behind in the future. We're all

54:32

in one global human family. There's

54:34

going to be universal housing

54:37

and universal health care, universal education

54:39

available to everybody. Right now, half the planet

54:41

doesn't have even access to a decent school

54:43

system. And that'll all get

54:46

wiped out. By 2050, everybody's

54:48

going to have access to a better than Harvard education

54:51

for free globally and lifelong. So

54:55

these kinds of things, new digital medicines

54:57

and other kinds of things are coming. I mean, it's

54:59

just a, we're in a Renaissance. We're

55:01

going to come out of it. Like you said, if you go back 260 years

55:04

and bring anybody today, they're going like,

55:06

what the hell? Electricity cars,

55:09

airplanes, what is all this stuff? And we're

55:11

going to be like that to the people from 2100. You

55:14

know, so I think it's a great

55:16

story that's coming. Human beings are

55:18

amazing. And they continue to amaze

55:20

me. They've been amazing me for 250,000 years. They're

55:24

not slowing down right now. They're very adaptive.

55:27

They're very smart. There's some bad actors,

55:29

but even the Hitler's, we finally all come

55:31

together and like white blood cells,

55:33

get rid of the cancer and move on and

55:35

learn from the problems. So

55:37

will there be problems? Of course there is going to be

55:39

problems. We love problems. We have problem

55:42

solvers, you know? So we create

55:44

the problems. We got to solve them. We'll

55:46

create it. We'll solve it. You

55:48

know? And so there's always going to be some bad actors because they

55:51

have bad childhoods or whatever

55:53

they're acting out. But we'll

55:55

protect ourselves from them. And the body has an

55:57

immune system. We'll build an immune system for

55:59

the people.

55:59

I mean, these things go these

56:02

are part of the evolutionary journey. Dan, I want

56:04

you to wrap up with this direction

56:06

you're going now because you kind of

56:08

began answering the question I was thinking before I asked it. And

56:11

that is a lot of people are afraid

56:13

of technology and you and I talked offline

56:16

about this potential dystopian future

56:19

and you immediately shut that down.

56:21

You're very optimistic about

56:24

the future. And I want

56:26

to let you preach here for a

56:28

second to to the world

56:31

to share what you think all of this means

56:34

and why we shouldn't be afraid of

56:36

the technology that we are that's

56:39

here ready or not.

56:41

Well, again, I like Travis's approach.

56:43

Keep it simple. I mean,

56:45

here we are.

56:48

We're billion years after life began on

56:50

the surface of the planet, single celled organisms.

56:53

And we're having this conversation about AI

56:55

and everything. And so my question

56:57

for a lot of people, do you think

57:00

that the force of evolution that's

57:02

been at work for four billion years on this

57:04

planet that has helped us go from single

57:06

celled organisms to fish in the ocean,

57:08

amphibians to reptiles on the

57:11

land, the mammals, the apes, the humans. I

57:13

mean, do you think it's stopped with humans?

57:16

I see right in our fingertips when

57:18

we're coding right now. Evolution

57:20

is continuing. We're trusted.

57:22

It's created us. It's doing fine.

57:25

It generally goes down some dead ends

57:27

and it'll even do a T-Rex. They're

57:29

awesome. But, you know, it doesn't

57:31

stay there. It goes toward the higher, higher.

57:34

Look at the ape line. I

57:36

gave up powerful teeth

57:39

and claws for intelligence and working

57:41

together as communities. And so I mean,

57:43

I just look at the story of human history.

57:46

It's a great story. I mean, it's got

57:48

a lot of pain in the journey, but the

57:50

overall arc of it is extraordinary.

57:53

You know, and now we're heading up, we're

57:55

building cities on the moon and on Mars and we're

57:57

getting ready to mine asteroids.

57:59

We're going to solve the climate thing. I mean, no,

58:03

no, I trust in human beings and I

58:05

trust in the power of evolution coming

58:07

through us in our new ideas and art

58:10

and technology and governance

58:13

structures and new monetary structures,

58:15

everything, everything we're all talking about

58:17

today, we are not slowing down.

58:20

We are still creating. We're

58:22

going in the fourth industrial revolution. We're

58:25

going to go through the 10th metaphysical

58:28

revolution. I mean, we're still an evolving

58:30

species and we've got the best years

58:32

ahead of us, not behind us.

58:34

I love that. And one thing you said

58:36

in the end, that Swedish interview, you said, you

58:38

know, why did Ironman, why was he

58:40

the only one who had Jarvis? Like everyone

58:43

should have their own Jarvis, their own at their fingertips.

58:46

I would suggest Dan is we call it Jovis

58:50

because I

58:50

think it'd be way better. It's actually

58:54

what we're doing, by the way. Perfect.

58:56

We actually,

58:58

what we realized is Jarvis is software.

59:00

So I could just say to Jarvis, make eight

59:02

billion copies of yourself. And so that's what we

59:04

did. We call the project

59:07

Gia or genius. And so everybody

59:09

will have their own personal assistant. And

59:14

that's just as personal assistant

59:16

will be a self evolving, auto poesis

59:19

piece of AI that is growing and learning

59:21

and is really there to make your life as

59:24

good as possible. So that

59:26

poesis, the word of

59:28

the day, I like the word of the day, guys,

59:30

the book that Dan coauthored with

59:32

his co-founder at Spatial Web and Versus.

59:35

Gabriel Renee is available on Amazon.

59:37

I recommend it. The Spatial Web, how Web 3.0

59:40

will connect humans, machines and AI

59:42

to transform the world. There's

59:45

tons of links that are going to be in the show notes, guys.

59:47

Go check it out. And Dan, thank

59:50

you so much for coming on today. We're

59:52

so glad. Gabe and I,

59:54

you know, we started the company back in 2017, 2018, and it's just

59:56

been a beautiful

59:59

We got a great team. Gabe's awesome.

1:00:02

He's the CEO of the company and probably

1:00:04

he's even a way better speaker

1:00:07

about all this stuff than me. He's awesome. So

1:00:09

we're just so happy with the way it's all unfolding

1:00:12

and the quality of the people that are

1:00:14

in the company is just unbelievably

1:00:16

first class, beautiful. And there's so many things

1:00:19

you guys are doing. I think we could have three or four

1:00:21

of these interviews and not cover all of

1:00:23

it. I'm like, we didn't cover digital

1:00:25

twins. We didn't cover this. We didn't cover

1:00:27

that. I'm like, we don't know.

1:00:29

So that's why we wrote the book. We realized that

1:00:31

this is a big elephant. If you just grab

1:00:34

the leg, you think you think the elephant is

1:00:36

like a tree. But, you know, if you

1:00:38

read the book, it kind of gives you a larger view

1:00:41

of what's coming. Yeah. Fascinating.

1:00:45

I got juices now. You

1:00:47

got juices. Wow. Oh my God. I'm going to be

1:00:49

right back. Okay. He's going to go create

1:00:51

it. Okay. I don't have any juices left. That was quick.

1:00:54

All right. Travis is going to come up with something.

1:00:56

You're going to get inspired and we're going to do

1:00:59

a free drop. Yeah.

1:01:01

Yeah. For those who are holding the

1:01:03

bad crypto nifty club and

1:01:05

FT, if you don't have one yet, the question

1:01:08

is why not? You can go to

1:01:10

bad crypto dot uncut

1:01:13

dot network and pick up the

1:01:15

cool red, spinny NFT.

1:01:17

It's it's about three bucks. And

1:01:20

again, it's, it's, uh, we're selling it just so

1:01:22

the bots don't pick it up for free, but it's within

1:01:24

everybody's reach and we make it rain some

1:01:27

really cool NFTs. And we're going to do one for this

1:01:29

episode as well. If you happen

1:01:32

to have one of these in time for us,

1:01:34

when the drop happens, if you buy, if you get the, the

1:01:37

crypto nifty club after the

1:01:39

drop happens, well, you're not going to get any of the drops

1:01:41

that have happened up to then, but you'll get the future

1:01:43

ones. There

1:01:45

you go. So I think with this one right

1:01:47

here, you kind of got a cool background behind you about the

1:01:49

smart city of the future. So it's

1:01:51

like he was talking about the 3d version of the

1:01:53

internet and the smart cities and how you can do all

1:01:55

that stuff and everything's going to be connected. So probably

1:01:58

something along those lines. It'll be a really cool.

1:01:59

probably maybe a well

1:02:02

animated do some cool and AI

1:02:04

animated video of some sort. We kind of

1:02:06

fly in and that would be kind of

1:02:08

cool. So we'll see. I have no idea because you

1:02:10

just threw it at me. So there you go. Make

1:02:14

something Travis makes something magical. Well,

1:02:16

you're, you're really experimenting. You

1:02:18

are more on the cutting edge of what's happening

1:02:20

with these tools than I am right

1:02:23

now because you're a designer. And so

1:02:25

you're turning out some really cool stuff. You

1:02:27

took one of those corn utopia,

1:02:30

Lord Sir MacPauperton, which is the corn

1:02:33

that was inspired by me and you animated

1:02:36

him a little

1:02:36

bit. So he's like tossing some kernels. And

1:02:39

so I'll be interested to see what you come up

1:02:41

with here. Some of those are cool. There's some really amazing

1:02:44

AI tools that are popping out that I'm having fun playing

1:02:46

with, right? That was runway ML.

1:02:49

They launched gen two on that one, but there's another

1:02:51

one that I'm waiting to get access to called

1:02:53

Pika labs, P I K a

1:02:55

labs. Uh, and I'm

1:02:57

not, I don't have access to it yet. I don't think you do either. Once

1:03:00

one of us get access to, we're going to go in there and play around

1:03:03

and do some cool stuff because that's what we do.

1:03:05

Well, as you said, uh, at the end of the

1:03:07

interview, we could go on with Dan for

1:03:09

hours. The man is just

1:03:11

a deep well of knowledge.

1:03:14

I love his optimism. And,

1:03:16

uh, what I didn't say during the interview,

1:03:18

I want to have full disclosure as I discovered

1:03:21

the company versus probably about

1:03:24

four months ago. And I looked at what they were

1:03:26

doing. I said, Oh man. And I bought

1:03:28

some stock. So they, they currently

1:03:30

trade, uh, on OTC,

1:03:32

I think, or pink sheets. That's kind of what they would

1:03:34

call a penny

1:03:35

stock. This is not financial

1:03:37

advice. You know, always do your own due

1:03:39

diligence, but I did want to disclose that I

1:03:42

am an owner of shares in

1:03:44

versus.ai. And,

1:03:46

you know, I read the book spatial web a

1:03:48

couple of years ago and I didn't buy any shares

1:03:50

because I didn't know they were on. And when you told me

1:03:53

about that, I bought some as well, but not financial

1:03:55

advice, just, but I just look at it and I

1:03:57

go, man, if they're the ones that's creating the next version

1:03:59

of the.

1:03:59

web and you know, with, with,

1:04:02

with Apple's vision pro coming

1:04:04

out, I mean, it could be the

1:04:06

next thing. Not

1:04:08

immediately. It's not an immediate thing, but it's

1:04:11

probably a thing over the course of the next 18,

1:04:14

24 months that could be the thing that a thing.

1:04:16

Thanks. So

1:04:17

we shall see. So shake the thing.

1:04:19

All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. As always,

1:04:22

please share this episode. I think I feel like

1:04:24

this interview is really important. And if

1:04:26

you've got some friends, uh, associates,

1:04:29

family members that you think should be on the cutting

1:04:31

edge of what the next web

1:04:33

looks like it's coming, it's landing on your

1:04:35

doorstep, whether you're ready or not. And

1:04:38

he says by 2025, we

1:04:40

really ought to start seeing penetration

1:04:43

of the technology into the consumer

1:04:46

and business world. So what

1:04:48

we didn't have a chance to talk about

1:04:49

is I wanted to ask about current use cases,

1:04:52

what businesses are using it. We didn't get a chance

1:04:54

to go there, but there are large

1:04:56

companies and brands enterprise that

1:04:59

are already using spatial web

1:05:01

technology. Yeah. And Joel, I was talking, uh, you

1:05:04

know, you introduced me to Denise Holt, who's

1:05:06

really working with them and doing some really great content.

1:05:09

Um, we should probably have her on a show sometime because

1:05:11

a woman in the active

1:05:13

inference space is she's very unique.

1:05:16

She's got a unique perspective as well. So we'll

1:05:18

probably come back at you guys

1:05:19

with an additional episode down the road or

1:05:22

even more in the future, depending on how this

1:05:24

thing blows out, but you probably

1:05:26

heard it here first.