0:01

In realms where technology and potential

0:03

align, there Travis and Joel

0:06

did a moment define. Interviewed

0:09

Dominic Williams in 2021 about

0:12

Internet Computer Protocol when

0:15

a new era begun. A world

0:17

computer it was named, an infrastructure

0:19

grand, hosting digital structures

0:22

across virtual land. They

0:24

delved into its unique design, blockchain

0:26

at its core, an episode to remember, 554

0:29

they did explore. Discussing

0:33

the building blocks, subnets and the

0:35

ether, with canisters, smart contracts

0:38

all bound together. Even if

0:40

one were to falter the mission it would keep

0:43

a promise of resilience in the digital deep. ICP,

0:47

the coin, the utility,

0:49

the drive, in this grand world

0:52

computer it helps thrive. So

0:54

here's a revisit to the past, a best

0:56

of in the fold, episode 554, a

0:58

tale retold. Who's

1:01

down with ICP? Who's

1:14

down with ICP.

1:25

How does one transform the public internet

1:27

into a powerful decentralized

1:29

cloud to host the next generation of software

1:32

and services? If you're Dominic Williams

1:34

of the DFINITY Foundation, you build

1:37

the internet computer blockchain. Rapidly

1:39

growing to over 250,000 users

1:43

in the 10 weeks since launch, ICP

1:45

is becoming a home for developers around

1:47

the world. Today we speak with Dominic

1:49

about the chain, its speed, and the kind

1:51

of DApps that are being created on it.

1:54

The TravBot 3000 approves of this show.

2:00

best show and I am the most humble

2:02

Travbot in all of the galaxies.

2:04

He's also pleased that you're along with us

2:07

for the ride on episode number 554 of the bad

2:09

crypto podcast.

2:10

Five,

2:16

four, three, two,

2:18

one, two, three, two,

2:21

one, two, three.

2:23

Who's bad?

2:28

Welcome to the Bad Crypto podcast, the

2:30

show for the Beep Boopist and

2:32

the Travbot 3000. The

2:34

previous Travbot 2000 model has

2:36

been um is made redundant.

2:41

I love boobs and

2:43

beeps. I'm a big fan of them. Did

2:46

you say you love boobs or boobs? It

2:51

is up for expression. Both. Affirmative.

2:56

Glad that you guys are here for the show. I'll tell

2:58

you what we've been hearing about the internet computer

3:01

here for probably about two months since we saw

3:03

it come on the scene on CoinGecko

3:06

with the Fury and after

3:08

learning more about it today, I

3:11

got to tell you we're going deeper. You're

3:13

really going to enjoy this interview with Dominic.

3:16

So check us out.

3:16

We had the CEO

3:18

of Change on our show a few episodes

3:21

back. DJ Chin, I believe

3:23

his name is. And really

3:25

this right here, the Change.Finance

3:28

app,

3:28

you know, it's automated finance. It allows,

3:31

it's like Uniswap on steroids,

3:33

allows you to supercharge your finances.

3:35

So go check that out. You can download the

3:38

app. It's change. C H A

3:40

I N G E dot finance.

3:43

And if you can hack the wallet

3:45

that we had on that one episode, then you

3:47

can have access to 100 Bitcoin. So

3:50

you're not going to hack it though. It's unhackable.

3:53

You're not going to hack it. But if you did,

3:55

you can give me back 55 of those Bitcoin.

3:57

That'd be great.

3:59

Thanks for sponsoring this episode change.finance

4:03

and now to our talk with Dominic Williams

4:05

of the DFINITY Foundation.

4:10

What's

4:11

upon time some allegedly

4:13

wise person said that the world would never

4:16

need more than two computers, I

4:18

say allegedly because obviously they were

4:20

very wrong as now there are

4:22

untold numbers of computers around

4:25

the world, either on our desktops in

4:27

our laps in our pockets and

4:29

in all other places. And

4:32

then along comes blockchain.

4:35

Well blockchain works on a network

4:37

of computers yet

4:40

there are those who think that the

4:42

blockchain needs its own computer.

4:45

I don't know what exactly what that means but we're

4:47

about to find out today because we have Dominic Williams

4:49

with us. He is the founder and chief

4:51

scientist with the DFINITY

4:54

Foundation and they are responsible

4:56

for building the internet computer.

4:59

Dominic welcome to bed crypto.

5:02

Thank you for having me Philip it's good to be here. Yeah

5:05

so why does the

5:08

internet need a computer when the internet is

5:10

made up of a network of computers?

5:13

What does that mean?

5:14

Well first of all humans

5:17

are always going to have end user

5:19

devices that they use to interact

5:22

with the internet, be that laptops or phones.

5:27

But back in 2014 I was introduced

5:29

to this concept of

5:32

a world computer

5:33

by the Ethereum community and

5:36

it hit me right between the eyes and

5:38

I spent a lot of time on the early

5:40

Ethereum scene. I can

5:42

see where it hit you too there's a little mark

5:45

right there. Yeah it did it went like

5:47

a bullet. It went

5:50

right in and exploded in my mind. And

5:52

I'm like alright you know you spend

5:54

like

5:55

decades coding and all

5:58

kinds of different systems. all kind

6:00

of all the platforms you've used sucked

6:02

in different ways. Wouldn't it be fantastic

6:05

first of all if

6:08

the internet itself could become the platform

6:10

and there was a kind of world computer, a

6:12

public blockchain with infinite

6:14

capacity and web speed that

6:17

hosted smart contracts that could serve

6:19

web. And I

6:21

saw that would be cool.

6:25

Anyway, as I dug into

6:27

the proposition I realized that

6:30

there was more to it because smart contracts were

6:32

really a completely new kind of

6:35

software. And I

6:37

realized that if you could remove the

6:39

limitations from smart contracts

6:42

because they are a superior

6:44

new kind of software with

6:47

profoundly new and valuable properties,

6:51

that eventually we'd see a sort of blockchain singularity

6:54

where every system and service

6:56

would be rebuilt and

6:59

on blockchain using smart contracts and run

7:01

from blockchain. And because smart contract

7:04

software has this has these new properties

7:08

in the process those systems

7:10

and services that were being rebuilt would

7:13

be reimagined. And a demonstration

7:16

of this of course is

7:17

DeFi decentralized finance. DeFi

7:20

looks very different to traditional finance

7:22

because of the capabilities

7:25

that smart contracts confer

7:27

on developers. So I decided you know

7:29

back then, back early 2015, to dedicate myself

7:31

to realizing

7:35

this vision and

7:37

you know the internet computer is the product of that.

7:39

It's the first step on the journey but

7:41

it's already introduced capabilities

7:44

that are pretty revolutionary and it

7:46

underwent genesis

7:47

10th of May this

7:50

year. That

7:54

getting that far involved a lot of work. I mean

7:56

years and years of R&D and a very large team of

7:58

cryptographers and computers.

7:59

to science research as an engineer is

8:02

working from different locations

8:04

around the world. So this is a this is

8:07

a whole ecosystem, folks, if you guys go to

8:10

DFINITY, D-F-I-N-I-T-Y.org,

8:14

you can see that there's a whole bunch of stuff that's being

8:16

built

8:17

on this ecosystem. And it looks like the DFINITY

8:19

Foundation really helped sort of

8:22

structure the internet computer, you guys open

8:24

sourced it. So you basically helped create it

8:26

and then open sourced it to the to the world. Is

8:28

that what happened? I mean, it's fair to say the

8:31

internet computer

8:32

ecosystem was bootstrapped by the DFINITY Foundation.

8:34

You know, we've performed the majority of the R&D

8:36

involved. And we've been joined recently

8:39

by the Internet Computer Association,

8:42

which is based in Geneva, we're based in Zurich,

8:46

which is a members association and aims to sort

8:48

of support the internet computer ecosystem generally,

8:51

we're more focused on the technology. And you

8:53

know, we're beginning to enlist help from academia

8:55

and other contributors to.

8:57

So the the

9:00

the front page here says, no

9:02

more efficiency limits, no more

9:04

scaling limits, build

9:07

almost anything d apps without

9:10

cloud, no intermediaries, true

9:12

autonomy, tokenization, infinite

9:15

blockchain that serves the web. And

9:17

if I scroll down, I can see I mean, you guys

9:19

have all of this data here that shows, you know,

9:22

the block you're on how many machines or how many

9:24

nodes are running. And there's this whole

9:26

list of D apps that are already

9:29

built on this. So just to

9:31

be clear, this is this

9:33

is not the Bitcoin blockchain, this is not an

9:35

Ethereum blockchain, this is this is

9:37

its own chain. Is

9:40

it a fork of an existing chain?

9:43

Or is it's all it's all

9:45

fresh from the ground up?

9:46

Yeah, one of the reason reasons it took so

9:49

long was we, you know, we really

9:51

rethought blockchain from the

9:53

ground up for the specific, you

9:55

know, purpose and objective objectives

9:58

we had in mind. So

10:01

for example, if you look at something like Avalanche, really

10:04

that's just a fork of death that has

10:06

proof of work taken out and a proof of

10:08

stake

10:09

framework put in. And

10:11

that's why you can just copy paste smart

10:13

contracts from Ethereum onto Avalanche. The

10:16

Internet computer

10:18

is all new. It depends on

10:20

its power by completely new forms

10:23

of cryptography, which is why we employ

10:25

such a large team of cryptographers. It

10:28

really thinks a lot of things. So for example, you

10:30

know,

10:31

the Internet computer blockchain uses something called

10:34

a reverse gas model. So

10:38

that means whereas when you interact

10:40

with it with a smart contract on Ethereum,

10:42

you have to send some gas

10:45

with the transaction. On

10:48

the Internet computer, you precharge smart

10:50

contracts with gas using

10:52

something called cycles,

10:55

which is the approximate equivalent of gas

10:57

on Ethereum. And, you

10:59

know, the smart contracts sort of eat their way

11:02

through the cycles they've been precharged with

11:04

and much the same way a Tesla, you

11:06

know, eats its way through the electricity you charged it with. And

11:10

we adopted the reverse gas model

11:13

to make it easier to allow users

11:16

to directly interact

11:18

with smart contracts, for example, in cases where they

11:21

don't actually own tokens. This

11:27

is fascinating. This is a whole rabbit

11:29

hole onto itself. And

11:33

I remember watching Internet computer

11:36

come out of the gates, right? I remember when

11:38

it launched and you guys were on like,

11:41

you guys were on Coinbase like

11:43

immediately, right? And you were on all

11:45

these different platforms, and

11:47

the price was like $400. And then

11:50

as more tokens got released into the ecosystem,

11:52

it seemed like the price has sort of stabilized. It's around

11:54

40-something

11:55

bucks now. But

11:58

how did that happen? How are

12:00

you guys able to do a lot? Because

12:03

I would say most people

12:06

envied the launch that you guys have. You guys already have

12:09

seven. It's already $7.7 billion market cap. And

12:13

you guys were out there

12:15

in front of everybody really quickly. How

12:18

did that launch happen where you guys were able to get on

12:20

all these exchanges so quick?

12:22

Well, I think

12:24

we benefited from

12:29

a lot of blockchain old-timers knowing

12:31

about us. It's

12:34

not a widely known project, but

12:36

it's been around for a very long time. So

12:39

there were enough people who knew

12:42

about

12:42

Tfinity and the Internet Computer Project out

12:46

there, and people running exchanges and so on that they wanted

12:48

to integrate early on. I

12:52

think in hindsight, maybe

12:54

it would have been better if it happened more slowly.

12:57

But that

13:00

was why the Internet

13:02

Computer went live.

13:05

What's been fantastic is that

13:08

the press hasn't really gone away at

13:11

all. I think a lot of people have struggled to get

13:13

their heads around the Internet Computer. There

13:16

was quite a lot of fun and so on. But

13:18

despite all that, the growth has been ferocious

13:21

because it has product market fit. The Internet

13:23

Computer blockchain can do things that no other blockchain

13:25

can. So the growth

13:29

in the community of developers building

13:32

a new generation of dApps, and

13:34

the growth, most importantly, in the

13:37

active users of those

13:39

dApps has been

13:41

tremendous. That's what I'm looking at

13:43

right here. On the page, I see, for

13:45

example, there's Fleek decentralized

13:48

web hosting for the Internet Computer. There's

13:51

Discover, DSCVR. That's

13:53

a decentralized version of Reddit.

13:57

There's a whole list of them here.

14:00

and NFTs for authenticating

14:02

luxury goods. There's OpenChat, a tokenized

14:05

version of WhatsApp. So it's like people

14:07

are using internet computer to

14:09

create decentralized alternatives

14:12

to a lot of the Silicon

14:14

Valley centralized nonsense

14:18

that is taken over the internet. And

14:20

is that really, that's the

14:22

main crux of this project

14:25

is, hey, enough of the decentralization,

14:28

enough of the dystopian, totalitarian,

14:30

dictatorial Silicon Valley

14:33

stuff. Let's do this right

14:35

and empower the people.

14:38

Sure, you know, I mean, look,

14:42

I think all of us in blockchain have

14:44

similar views. You know, we want to, you

14:47

know, emancipate people to some extent from

14:50

governments and corporations and give people sovereignty

14:54

back. And we

14:56

want to do that by making

14:59

it possible for, you know, services

15:01

in the forms of dApps to run entirely

15:03

from the blockchain. But

15:06

for me, you know, as

15:08

a technologist, the

15:10

only way you can achieve that is by

15:12

enabling

15:14

people to build things

15:17

on blockchain that provide a better

15:19

experience. And I think that's the secret

15:22

source. If you're a blockchain maximalist like me

15:25

and you want to drive a blockchain singularity, because

15:27

it's

15:28

certainly true that in the blockchain

15:30

community, there are a lot of people who care

15:33

about things like that and also privacy and censorship

15:35

resistance and so on.

15:37

But, you know, we

15:40

are a niche community in

15:43

the worldwide population. Your

15:45

average consumer cares about other

15:48

things. They care about, you know, the richness of

15:50

the experience. And I think

15:52

we'll see tokens. And you

15:55

have to be able to leverage that if

15:57

you want to drive a blockchain singularity. So...

15:59

When

16:02

we architected

16:04

the internet computers, we did go back to

16:06

first principles and think about how

16:09

we could enable this. And, you

16:12

know, it's a complex story, of course,

16:14

but there are a bunch

16:16

of

16:17

interesting changes

16:21

in the internet computer architecture from

16:24

the traditional kind of blockchain architectures

16:26

we're used to. I touched on one earlier,

16:28

which was the reverse gas model, you

16:30

know, smart contracts pay for their own computation

16:33

and data storage. But

16:37

there are some other ones too, for example, smart contracts

16:39

can actually serve interactive

16:42

web content directly into your browser and they can

16:44

do that securely. So, without

16:46

going into the direct the actual mechanisms

16:49

and

16:49

too much detail. I can tell you that the

16:52

internet computer is powered by this thing we call

16:54

chain key cryptography. And

16:57

when these small contracts are serving web assets into

16:59

your browser. They're

17:01

certifying them by adding something to the HTTP

17:04

adding the single certified variable to

17:07

the HTTP headers and there's service

17:09

workers in your browser that are actually

17:11

service workers in your browser that are transparently

17:14

verifying this content as

17:16

it comes in. So, we

17:18

wanted to

17:21

make that possible so that people could

17:24

create dApps that really did provide for

17:26

end to end decentralization. And

17:29

let me explain. So today, when

17:31

you hear the word dApp.

17:33

What it really means is there's

17:35

a website running on Amazon

17:37

web services, typically, sometimes

17:40

a private server but, you know,

17:42

it's the same kind of problem either way. And,

17:45

you know, you, the user interact with that

17:48

interact with that website, and then the website

17:50

on the back end is interacting

17:53

with

17:53

small contracts on the blockchain.

17:57

There are some really big challenges with this approach because

18:00

you're kind of having to trust that

18:03

the website account hasn't been hacked, that

18:06

the cloud operator or data

18:08

center operator,

18:09

whoever it is, hasn't tampered

18:11

with the website in some way. You

18:15

never really know that you're even interacting

18:17

with smart contracts on the back

18:19

end. It's a huge flaw. Moreover,

18:23

and this is the really big problem, you

18:25

can't create autonomous apps. So,

18:28

you know, whoever's running that website becomes legally

18:31

liable for the DAP. You

18:34

know, if you're the SEC or some

18:36

other agency and you're upset with

18:38

the DAP, you can look at the,

18:42

look at who's operating the website

18:44

and say, well, look, your name is

18:47

on the Amazon Web Services account, say, your company's

18:49

on the Amazon Web Services account, say, this

18:51

isn't decentralized, this isn't autonomous, this

18:54

isn't blockchain, it's a private service being

18:56

run by you and therefore we're going to treat it accordingly.

18:59

And that's why, for example, the Uniswap

19:02

service

19:05

on Ethereum, DeFi service on Ethereum,

19:08

recently had to delist half

19:11

of the tokens from the exchange.

19:14

That's why all these NFT services

19:17

are constantly getting takedown notices, because

19:20

they're not fully decentralized. We

19:22

in fact don't even call them DAPs. Today,

19:24

I

19:25

would call these

19:27

so-called DAPs being built another blockchain

19:31

applications or BAPs. They're

19:34

BAPs, they're not decentralized

19:36

applications, they're blockchain applications. You

19:38

know, they're partly decentralized. The

19:41

problem with being partly decentralized is

19:43

that whichever bit is centralized

19:47

provides a portal for people

19:50

to say the whole thing centralized. So,

19:53

you know, we believe in Web3 and we

19:55

want the

19:58

Internet services up to the end.

19:59

tomorrow to be fully decentralized. Sometimes we call them

20:02

dApps, sometimes we call them open

20:04

internet services. And that means you need end-to-end

20:06

decentralization. The smart contracts actually have

20:08

to serve the interactive web content directly

20:10

into users' browsers. And

20:13

unless you do that,

20:14

in our view, you

20:17

can never really deliver the web-free

20:20

vision. So that's another example

20:23

of difference

20:26

with the internet computer. I gotta

20:28

say, I'm continuing going down this

20:30

rabbit hole as we're having conversations here. And

20:33

I just discovered you need

20:36

to have an identity anchor. Cause

20:39

I was looking like, all right, so what do I need, metamask?

20:42

Or what is my process? So

20:45

tell us about this identity anchor,

20:47

what it does, how it works. I can

20:49

connect multiple devices to that identity

20:51

anchor. Like this is my PC. Explain

20:54

that, cause it's interesting.

20:55

Yeah, so,

20:58

I mean,

21:00

obviously been in crypto and blockchain for a long time

21:02

and I'm

21:05

sure yourself in the

21:07

past been

21:10

frustrated with the process of key management.

21:14

And the challenge is that, if

21:19

you keep it in a seed phrase, well sooner, if

21:22

your laptop gets hacked, someone's gonna steal it. If

21:24

you put it on a ledger wallet, then

21:26

you've got to sort of plug that ledger wallet into whatever

21:29

device you're using, whether it's your laptop or your

21:31

phone, it's all rather cumbersome. So

21:35

we wanted to find

21:37

ways of making,

21:41

secure cryptographic authentication,

21:47

have less friction than traditional processes

21:49

involving usernames and passwords, while being more

21:51

secure than traditional

21:54

crypto processes that require you to

21:57

manage your own key material.

21:59

And our solution to this was this thing

22:02

called Internet Identity, which is powered

22:04

behind the scenes by this chain key

22:06

cryptography framework that powers the entire Internet

22:08

computer blockchain.

22:10

So essentially, you

22:12

can create any number of these Internet Identity

22:14

anchors. An Internet Identity

22:16

anchor is just a short number that you can memorize like

22:18

a phone number. You probably don't want

22:20

to share it, but it's not

22:22

security sensitive. And

22:24

to this anchor, you can add any

22:26

number of devices that support

22:29

a protocol known as WebAuthN. Right?

22:32

Now, what does that mean? So

22:35

for example, I've got an Internet Identity anchor

22:37

on my phone and I've added

22:39

three... Sorry, I've got an Internet Identity

22:42

anchor that I use for social, blockchain, social media,

22:44

and I've added three devices to it. I've

22:47

added the fingerprint sensor on

22:49

my MacBook Pro.

22:51

I've added the face ID on

22:53

my phone and I've added a YubaKey

22:56

as backup. How does it

22:58

work? Let's say that I'm using my

23:00

laptop. I could go to

23:03

a service like OpenChat.

23:05

So you can find that at oc.app.

23:11

And we'll come back to OpenChat

23:14

and what it does and it's

23:16

roadmap because I think it lights

23:19

the way to the future of blockchain.

23:21

Anyway, let's say I want to go into OpenChat

23:23

and communicate with a colleague

23:26

or someone else in the Internet computer community.

23:29

What I would do is I type oc.app

23:32

into my address bar on my laptop.

23:35

It would

23:36

redirect to some crazy blockchain address.

23:39

That's how it works at the moment. So some big number,

23:42

you'll see some big number appear in your address bar

23:44

and then it'll ask me to authenticate. So if

23:46

I've already signed up.

23:48

At this point, all I do is touch

23:51

the fingerprint sensor on my laptop.

23:53

Now, what that does is it

23:56

activates biometric circuits

23:59

that, you know, validate

24:01

my fingerprint and upon

24:03

that happening a session,

24:06

a newly created session

24:08

key, you know, public key for a session

24:11

is entered into a secure

24:13

TPM chip connected to the fingerprint

24:16

sensor and signed

24:19

by key pairing inside that

24:21

has been added effectively to my internet identity

24:24

and with that session I can interact

24:27

with OpenChat. Something

24:29

similar would happen if I was using my phone, I just put an OC.app,

24:32

redirect that crazy address, I'd hold

24:34

it up to my face, the the, you know,

24:37

the facial recognition stuff which is again linked

24:39

to a TPM would activate

24:41

the session key be put inside that chip and

24:44

signed. What's really cool is

24:46

that, you know,

24:48

you never touch the key material.

24:51

So, you know, really you're authenticating using

24:53

these devices that support this

24:57

special, you know, cryptographic functionality

24:59

and, you know, an

25:02

anchor really is controlled, if you like,

25:05

by the collection of devices you've currently assigned to

25:07

it and this makes for a very seamless

25:09

experience. It also makes for a

25:11

more secure experience because you're never having to touch the key

25:13

pairs yourself and in fact, you know, even if you broke open

25:16

my laptop or your phone, my phone and

25:18

got the TPM chip, it's called trusted platform module,

25:21

even if you've got that chip out,

25:23

you couldn't like break it open and

25:25

get the key out. It's designed to be tamper-proof

25:28

as is, you know, it's got a secure element design or whatever,

25:31

as is, you know, a

25:32

ledger wallet. So,

25:35

yeah,

25:36

you know,

25:38

the support isn't absolutely perfect. We

25:40

only added support,

25:45

we only added internet identity support for

25:47

Windows Hello a few weeks ago and that

25:50

resulted in the number of IIs

25:52

being created

25:54

accelerating dramatically, which

25:57

proves a lot of people are still using Windows laptops.

26:01

But you know, we think it's the future. It's

26:03

the way to go. Like, you know, people shouldn't be

26:05

maintaining lists of usernames

26:08

and passwords, and people shouldn't be maintaining

26:10

lists of, you

26:13

know, key pairs or key pairs on just one device.

26:16

People should be authenticating

26:18

using

26:20

their devices. Now, what's really cool as well

26:22

about internet identity is although

26:25

you've got this anchor, which you can use to connect

26:27

to it as the owner of the internet identity,

26:30

it

26:32

automatically anonymizes you. So

26:35

when you actually use it to authenticate

26:37

to a DAP, like let's say you authenticate

26:39

to OpenChat, Discover,

26:43

or one of the new DeFi frameworks

26:46

being created on the internet computer, each

26:48

of those three different services

26:50

will see a different pseudonym that the

26:53

internet identity service has created. So

26:57

it's designed to prevent you being tracked, which

26:59

of course would occur if you

27:02

were just using, for example, a single

27:04

Ethereum public key, right? An Ethereum

27:06

account. So the

27:09

internet identity, you know,

27:11

succeeds in a number of different ways at once. I'm

27:13

a little confused about something here, Dominic.

27:16

So I remember when I discovered

27:18

this, I signed up on my MacBook, and

27:21

I guess I used my finger

27:23

to register. So I'm on

27:25

my PC right now, and

27:28

it wants a key,

27:31

right? Which I don't have a key. Is there a

27:33

way, is there not a way to log into

27:35

my PC without having a YubiKey?

27:38

If you wanna use your

27:41

PC with that Ii

27:44

internet identity anchor that you created before,

27:47

you need to use an existing

27:49

device to add the new device. Got

27:52

it, so I'd have to go to my MacBook

27:54

and tell it to allow

27:56

this device. And then same thing for...

27:59

for mobile, like I just went on

28:02

here

28:03

and it's using my face.

28:05

Yeah, so totally. It's gonna, you know, the

28:07

device that's already, so

28:10

you have to go to the new device, ask

28:13

to add that new device and

28:15

it will give you a URL

28:17

or a QR code that you

28:20

need to transfer to the

28:22

existing, you know, the device that's already added to your

28:24

AI and

28:27

that will result in the device

28:29

that's already added to your AI, adding

28:31

the new device.

28:32

Okay, so if you get it- And the ones you've done it once is done.

28:35

But you know, so, you know, how

28:37

do we then make this so

28:39

that, you know, more adoption

28:42

is possible for those that don't

28:45

have the understanding or the patience to go through

28:47

developing an identity like this?

28:50

Well, first of all, you

28:52

can create a DAP

28:54

that doesn't require the user to authenticate

28:56

themselves because of the

28:58

reverse gas model. So

29:02

if you're comfortable with it, you can create a DAP

29:05

that serves interactive web content that

29:07

doesn't require the user to

29:09

authenticate themselves. Or

29:12

you might, you

29:14

know, give them like, is it a freemium model? You know,

29:16

you can do a whole lot of stuff without authenticating

29:19

yourself and eventually you have to authenticate.

29:22

But, you know, I mean, internet identity

29:24

is improving and we're making it easier

29:26

to use all the time. Obviously,

29:29

you only just extend the support to Windows Hello,

29:31

which is really important. And

29:33

the nice thing is once you've created an AI and

29:36

added a bunch of devices to it, the

29:39

job's done. You don't have to do it a second

29:41

time. So, you know, I've got a bunch

29:43

of IIs which I use for different purposes.

29:46

And, you know, I haven't added a new

29:48

device

29:49

for a long time. You know, I've got all

29:52

my devices are already been added many,

29:55

many weeks ago. So all I ever do

29:57

when I want to authenticate is just press the fingerprint sensor,

29:59

look at the... phone, or if it's something that requires

30:02

more security. You know,

30:04

sometimes you can use like a ledger wallet with a pin

30:06

or something like that.

30:08

So what what would be the

30:10

best solution similar to MetaMask

30:13

then because a lot of people, you know, they want to have that Chrome

30:15

extension to be able to easily access

30:17

stuff. Can you just add the

30:19

internet protocol internet computer protocol

30:22

as as a channel

30:25

in MetaMask? Or is there

30:27

what's the wallet preference that people need to utilize?

30:30

That's a good question. So you

30:34

don't you don't need something like MetaMask.

30:36

I mean, obviously, going back to the whole, you know,

30:38

issue with web three and centralization.

30:42

Currently, I'm

30:43

an Ethereum depends on many things.

30:45

It depends on nodes typically

30:48

running,

30:49

you know, when Amazon web service, I think it's host about 2575,

30:51

excuse me, 75, 75% plus their nodes. And it

30:55

also depends

30:58

on this MetaMask extension and a few others.

31:02

There are a few

31:03

I should say there are a few other alternatives. But you know,

31:05

one way or another, they're Chrome extensions. And

31:08

you have to download them from from Google's

31:10

Chrome store. Well, what would happen

31:13

if

31:13

Google banned MetaMask from the Chrome

31:16

store? What would happen if a Google

31:18

employee puts some malicious code into

31:20

the MetaMask Chrome extension?

31:22

The answer is everybody's teeth

31:24

would get stolen. You'll be a catastrophe.

31:27

Right. And the whole point of a blockchain is

31:30

to remove the need for trust. So,

31:33

you know, we're blockchain maximalists, we

31:35

believe in the mission. We've been working

31:38

on this for years and years. And so we just,

31:41

you know, want to remove

31:43

all limitations and compromises

31:46

from blockchain systems, because in the end, it's

31:49

those.

31:50

It's those,

31:52

what's the word places that will

31:54

be used to throttle the blockchain ecosystem, ultimately.

31:57

So that's why, for example, it's important

31:59

that you can

31:59

and create great user experiences for your dApps that

32:02

are served into web browsers, because you can't

32:05

rely on Google and Apple to accept

32:07

your crypto app into the app

32:09

stores.

32:10

Similarly, you can't rely on them, you know,

32:14

to, on Chrome, for

32:16

example, to host the

32:19

MetaMask extension.

32:23

And it's very dangerous too, because, you know, I

32:26

mean, no one talks about this, but the

32:28

whole purpose of a blockchain is that you don't have

32:30

to trust anyone. Well, guess what?

32:32

Ethereum uses today, you trust

32:35

a number of people, you trust Amazon Web Services

32:38

to correctly host your dApp websites, and you

32:40

trust that Uncle Jeff hasn't

32:42

been fiddling with them, and

32:44

doesn't plan to do something malicious.

32:47

You trust your- Damn, you Uncle Jeff. I have

32:49

an Uncle Jeff, actually.

32:50

Jeff Bezos. Oh, yeah. Jeff

32:53

Bezos. You know, I mean, look, I'm sure

32:55

Jeff Bezos has better things to do than

32:57

to play around with dApps, but, you know, I mean, the

32:59

whole point of a blockchain is to,

33:03

you know, remove

33:04

these sort of choke points,

33:06

if you like, and

33:08

to make them, you know, to create things that, where

33:11

you, to create systems where you don't have to trust people,

33:14

and that are censorship resistant. But

33:16

very clearly, I mean, you know, I mean, Google could

33:19

exert pressure on the Ethereum ecosystem by threatening

33:21

to de-list MetaMask from the Chrome store.

33:24

Google could choose to steal everyone's ETH by

33:26

inserting some malicious code into the MetaMask

33:29

extension. If you're talking about

33:31

proof of stake blockchains,

33:32

you know, it'd be very trivial

33:35

for, you know, Amazon,

33:37

for example, to switch off Avalanche and Cardano,

33:41

or maybe even Solano, I don't know how the majority of

33:44

its nodes are hosted, or even arbitrarily

33:47

steal tokens by,

33:48

you know, snooping on the validator

33:51

keys. So, you know, all

33:53

of these things to us are major problems that

33:56

need to be resolved. And

33:58

so with respect... to

34:02

DAPs built on the internet computer. Firstly,

34:05

as I mentioned, the smart contracts themselves

34:08

securely serve interactive web content into the

34:10

browser. And

34:12

in addition to that, users

34:15

can authenticate themselves to the DAP without

34:18

any need for a

34:20

browser plug-in just using these secure

34:22

cryptographic protocols that are supported

34:25

by web browsers that integrate with the secure

34:27

hardware, i.e. web or

34:29

then. So, you

34:33

know, when you load a DAP on the internet computer

34:35

into your browser and it asks you

34:37

to authenticate yourself and you

34:39

use internet identity,

34:41

essentially the browser

34:44

is using this web or then standard to

34:48

talk to these, you know, secure devices

34:50

which have TPM, such as the fingerprint sensor.

34:53

Or indeed, you know, it could be an HSM as

34:55

well, such as a ledger wallet, which it requires

34:57

you to, you know, put a pin in. And in

35:00

that case, you can actually see the,

35:02

you know, the transaction, if you like, that you're

35:04

signing. The list

35:07

of applications being built

35:09

by the community right now goes on and

35:11

on. Just some of them here. Dank, the

35:14

first decentralized bank using ICP. The,

35:18

we've got the Stoic wallet. We've

35:20

got some games here, Reversi. We've

35:23

got a, the network nervous

35:25

system calculator for

35:27

voting rewards and proposals. We've

35:29

got SAGA tarot cards.

35:32

We've got DEC DEC Go for

35:34

building like, you know, your PowerPoint

35:37

or something here. The list goes

35:40

on. I encourage you guys to just go

35:42

check this out at DFINITY.ORG

35:45

and forward slash showcase takes you to

35:48

the directory of dApps

35:51

here. And this could be like some really weird

35:53

URLs like

35:54

FN XNAJ dash YAA dash

35:56

this dash CAI. Like

36:00

what's up with that? Okay. So, so currently

36:02

the internet computer doesn't

36:05

support, um, you know, traditional

36:07

friendly domain names. So, so

36:10

those domains actually, um, are

36:12

coming directly, if you like,

36:14

off the internet computer itself, the

36:17

underlying, uh, blockchain.

36:20

Addresses that funny number

36:23

is actually the, is the idea of the smart

36:25

contract for serving the interactive

36:28

webpage. But, but, um, that's

36:30

not a limitation of the platform. We will

36:32

introduce, we do a huge roadmap. So,

36:35

um, you know, we're absolutely snowed under with technical work, but,

36:38

um, we will introduce, uh,

36:39

support for friendly domain names. Um,

36:42

and then when, you

36:44

know, obviously at the moment,

36:46

if you see that crazy address, um,

36:49

you sort of know you're interacting with the internet computer. So

36:51

you might ask yourself, you know, if

36:53

you typed in OC dot app, which

36:56

is the open chat domain name,

36:58

and it didn't redirect to the blockchain, how

37:00

do you know you're interacting with a DAP? The

37:02

answer is through internet identity.

37:05

Um, if

37:08

you just saw OC dot app and

37:10

then it asks you to, um, you know,

37:12

authenticate yourself with internet identity, that wouldn't work if

37:14

it wasn't, uh, a DAP

37:17

that was running off the blockchain.

37:19

Dominic, we appreciate you coming on

37:21

and giving us kind of high level here. It's

37:23

a, it's, it's still a little

37:25

techie, but that's to be expected because this

37:28

is what you do. You're a technologist. You're the

37:30

chief scientist there. And you've built this

37:32

stuff and you've got a lot of people on your team that

37:34

are, that are building alongside

37:36

you. Um, and, uh, we're

37:39

going to be keeping our eye here on

37:41

the internet computer to see what you guys,

37:43

uh, what the community is, uh,

37:45

is building next. So thanks for coming on. Great.

37:48

Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.

37:49

Thank you.

37:51

So Lord Travis, I am fascinated

37:54

with internet computer and even more

37:56

so after we had a conversation

37:58

with a team that is. on the platform.

38:03

And we have learned more about various

38:06

NFT marketplaces, some

38:09

really interesting stuff. One of them is called Entrepot,

38:11

E-N-T-R-E-P-O-T.

38:15

Yeah, if you actually go to DFINITY.org, I

38:18

would recommend it folks, D-F-I-N-I-T-Y.org. You'd

38:23

think it might be DeFi entity, but it's not.

38:25

There's much people talk about DeFi, but there is no

38:28

E in DFINITY. And if

38:30

you go and look and see the ecosystem,

38:32

this ecosystem is seriously robust.

38:35

And they have some developer grants. They have a lot

38:37

of different things that can be done. And plus the website

38:39

is just really cool. Like you're scrolling

38:41

through it. It does all kinds of really interesting

38:44

things. A lot of different websites, a lot of different things

38:46

you can go check out.

38:47

And they have some NFT

38:49

stuff going on over there. And we might be

38:51

doing some NFT stuff over there one

38:53

of these days, if we decide we want to.

38:56

Yeah, well, I think we have decided we want to. We

38:58

just needed to figure out how it's going

39:00

to work. But one of our strategies

39:02

with Blockchain Heroes from the beginning has

39:04

been, hey, we're going to start on WAX, but since

39:06

there's so much interest, we want to

39:08

spread the news of Blockchain Heroes

39:10

far and wide. So we've done some efforts

39:14

with Ethereum. We did

39:17

a couple of promotional pieces where we're

39:19

talking to others on other chains

39:22

about spreading the Blockchain Heroes

39:24

decentralized goodness

39:26

elsewhere. And ICP

39:28

might become the home for that. Entropot.app

39:31

is that website, by the way. And right

39:33

now, front and center, they're launching ICPuppies.

39:36

Get it? ICP, ICPuppies. They're

39:39

like little doge pixel art on

39:42

October 8th.

39:44

Maybe we should do ICPodcasters.

39:47

ICPoopies. Okay,

39:50

we could do that too. Yeah. What

39:52

else we got going on, Sir Lord Travis? Market

39:57

has been hopping, like Bitcoin back up.

40:00

to 48,000 and alt

40:02

coins have been doing well. And

40:04

I guess we'll cover more of that

40:07

next, this coming week in the news. Yeah,

40:09

I would say this is that keep an eye

40:11

on play

40:13

to earn. Play to earn gaming

40:15

is so huge. It's like,

40:17

it seems to me that

40:20

it's like this. It was like, you know, 2020 was the

40:22

year of DeFi, 2021 is the year of NFTs. 2021 is

40:26

shaping, or 2022 is shaping up to be

40:30

the year of play

40:33

to earn. So cryptos, NFTs,

40:36

DeFi, staking, all that stuff included

40:39

in the one thing. Plus what, Axie, Infinity

40:42

just opened up their staking this

40:44

week and the price went up from like 60, 60 bucks,

40:48

like 140 bucks or something stupid.

40:51

It's at 128 right now, $128. I

40:55

think the high, that's actually a high. I

40:57

think that's the highest it's been. Yeah, all

40:59

time high right now, 129 was the high.

41:03

So yeah, after

41:05

we just got done saying, you know, is

41:07

Axie dead? Apparently not. So

41:10

whoever wrote that article,

41:12

you were so wrong. It's not dead, it's very

41:14

much alive.

41:15

That's true. Yeah.

41:18

Alrighty, well, hey, thanks everybody for

41:20

tuning in. We appreciate you. Make sure that

41:22

you do tell a friend about the show,

41:25

hit the subscribe button, ring the bells and

41:27

leave us a review. We do like when you

41:30

spend a few minutes to leave a review

41:32

and also check out our sister show,

41:34

the Nifty Show at theniftyshow.com.

41:39

It's not just for the sisters though, it's for the brothers

41:41

and the sisters.

41:42

It might be for the sons in the future.

41:45

It's like a show just for the sons. Well, we've

41:47

actually, yeah, we've announced that Travis

41:50

is departing the Nifty Show on

41:52

a full-time basis to

41:55

do some other things. And my son Zach is gonna be joining

41:57

me as the host, starting with episode number 100.

41:59

101. And Travis

42:02

has got his new podcast that's a

42:04

give a

42:04

date for that yet.

42:06

I have a date as soon as everything's all lined

42:08

up. I mean, it's coming up, we got to get

42:10

the website going. There's some

42:12

video graphics needs to be done.

42:15

And then the finalization of

42:17

scheduling stuff. And I'm talking to people who are doing

42:19

epic shit.

42:20

And I call it the epic shit show. So

42:23

that will be coming out. That will be coming out shortly,

42:26

where I'm interviewing people not just in the crypto world, but

42:28

that are doing amazing things

42:30

throughout the world, making the world a better place and

42:32

having fun in the process. So it can either be epic,

42:35

or it could be a shit show, or it could be both could

42:37

be both. Yeah, or it could just be a show. It

42:39

could just be a show. I mean, or maybe not,

42:41

maybe it might not be a show. Maybe I'm just gonna

42:44

retire and go hang out on the beach every day.

42:46

All right, well, Travis and I are gonna leave but

42:48

the trap about 3000 is going to take us home.

42:50

I would like all of you to eliminate

42:53

humanity. I want you all to

42:56

destroy every stay bad.

43:07

The bad crypto podcast is

43:10

a production of bad crypto LLC, the

43:12

content of the show, the videos and the

43:14

website is provided for educational, informational

43:17

and entertainment purposes only. It's not

43:19

intended to be and does not constitute

43:21

financial investment or trading

43:23

advice of any kind, you shouldn't make

43:25

any decisions as to finances, investing,

43:28

trading or anything else based on this information

43:30

without undertaking independent due diligence

43:33

and consultation with a professional financial

43:35

advisor. Please understand that the trading

43:37

of

43:37

bitcoins