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Now from the Institute of Politics

0:38

at the University of Chicago and

0:40

seen an audio The Acc Smiles

0:42

with your Host David Axelrod. Last

0:46

I'm journalist author and Duke University

0:48

professor Frink Rooney visited We spoke

0:50

about a wrenching trauma in his

0:52

own life, the loss of say

0:55

he returns to talk about our

0:57

country's current self inflicted trauma, the

0:59

topic of his latest book called

1:01

the Age of Grievance. We spoke

1:03

about the shredding of the American

1:06

community in this era of social

1:08

media political polarization in rapid change

1:10

in how we begin to repair

1:12

it or conversation was recorded before.

1:14

A live audience at the Institute of Politics

1:16

In here it is. Frank.

1:21

Bruni. good to see a my friend is

1:23

really good in a while. At

1:26

the last how we got together on

1:28

one of these podcasts you had been

1:30

through. A. Trauma in your

1:33

life and you wrote about it

1:35

on. Youtube. What lost

1:37

your sight in one eye? And

1:39

of through very rare. Eyes

1:43

stroke and. You.

1:45

Or any other I was

1:47

in jeopardy. I

1:50

only raise this not to revisit old territory. But

1:52

first I ask, how are you doing. You

1:55

quit your job at the times, or at least as

1:57

a full time calm as you still writing and you.

2:00

Down to Duke. To

2:02

teach. I'm a housewife quite as good. Thank

2:04

you for asking. My vision has been stable,

2:06

it's funny. Him and I still struggle just

2:08

this morning. I think it is a slut

2:10

badly. Last night's I was trying to do

2:12

some reading and things were getting sort of

2:14

swimming and wobbly, but I kind of know

2:16

how to take a break. And for John

2:18

I'm and I my I'm lucky things are

2:20

good. Good. That you know I. Miss

2:24

It leads into the discussion but I

2:26

want to have because you write a

2:28

little bit about this in your in

2:30

your new book The Age of Grievance

2:32

and. Eat. There

2:34

was a line in there that. Really?

2:37

Resonated with me which was measuring

2:39

Misfortune is no strategy for life.

2:43

Ah, I'm and you talk about the fact that.

2:45

Your. First, the first impulse

2:47

is to be angry. About

2:50

what's happened to you, talk about that

2:53

and how that. Impact.

2:55

On You and Out That in some ways inspired

2:57

you to write this book. He had.

2:59

The analogy isn't perfect, but one of the

3:01

mad essential parts of my journey after I

3:03

had my eye stroke must hold that I

3:06

would live forever more with a twenty percent

3:08

chance of going blind. which I guess is

3:10

the case even as we sit here now

3:12

and a one of the tough things was

3:15

not to feel angry like that question why

3:17

me on one of the tough things was

3:19

not to kind of just descend into self

3:21

pity arms. And. After

3:24

I got through that as I continue to

3:26

do the sort of political analysis and commentary

3:28

I do and I began, you know, looking

3:30

at the country through. I

3:32

just literally a different set of eyes.

3:35

I realized that we had a civic

3:37

challenge That sort of parallels that personal

3:39

challenge it's I see way too many

3:41

of us. I'd be curious to know

3:44

if this resonates for you and who

3:46

are political? Discussions Begin with how I've

3:48

been wronged him, What I mode on.

3:50

They proceed from a place of kind

3:53

of anger on and self pity and

3:55

recriminations. and well in many to I

3:57

never see that. Yeah, and now. You

4:02

must be living in some mythical Scandinavian

4:04

sunshine. Success. but I invasion of their

4:06

own issues. Yeah, with has to. but

4:08

so maybe I was uniquely sensitive to

4:10

it's. also I was kind of living

4:13

as we all are in the Tons

4:15

Thera. I mean, you know, I've

4:18

never. I. Think encountered

4:20

a grievance. politicians have that

4:23

intensity. I. Don't think we've

4:25

ever had a grievance president seat

4:27

arrival his on and that I

4:29

think has been an accelerant of

4:31

this corrosive culture of ours. but

4:33

I think it's also reflection of

4:35

it. I think he was elected

4:37

because at this moment in time

4:39

he embodied ah anti communicated a

4:41

kind of fury that was pervasive

4:44

in any kind of has a

4:46

feral genius for finding that seat

4:48

Those seems of of resentment in

4:50

science but in some ways frank

4:52

I mean. In. A

4:54

you devoted a chat a chapter to

4:56

social media. But.

5:00

I think we're kind of living in

5:02

a social media world. and I don't

5:04

mean just because people are on social

5:06

media, but the foundational principle of social

5:09

media as a profit center is sort

5:11

of at the core of all of

5:13

this. And you write about that. Talk

5:15

about that. Yeah, I mean there's there's

5:18

all sorts of science and studies that

5:20

show that and nothing. It's Nothing goes

5:22

viral on social media. Nothing gets clicks,

5:24

Nothing gets shares like something that's is

5:27

an expression of your anger on. and

5:29

so we have this platform. This, this

5:31

whatever you want to call social media

5:33

still encourages us to be angry. That

5:35

rewards us when we're angry. I'm incentivize

5:37

as it's and I think that as

5:39

that has done enormous, enormous damage The

5:42

social media I think is doing damage

5:44

in more ways than we typically and

5:46

real as so this lot of talk

5:48

about the algorithms actually true, Actually be

5:50

concerned with those algorithms are what shove

5:52

us into arctic silos. May they know

5:54

more about us than we know is

5:57

the marriage of social media and big

5:59

data breasts. That is so insidious.

6:01

They know more about us than we

6:03

do and they know what antagonizes as

6:05

which causes us to be fearful, resentful

6:07

and they organize what we see accordingly.

6:09

Correct, Correct this. They encourage us to

6:12

be more separate and not as he

6:14

common ground he knows. You go to

6:16

social media you see your viewpoint validated

6:18

season kind of marinate and at even

6:20

more than you were and you and

6:22

you cease to your a nice any

6:25

dissenting voices to believed them. But I

6:27

think social media also asks you to

6:29

engage in everything. At the hottest temperature

6:31

possible? As a whole other problematic we give

6:33

that too little too little wearing a measure

6:35

the it's the anger thing right on? What

6:38

if I go on social media and I

6:40

same. Boy. You know I'm

6:42

I'm I'm reading about and watching what's

6:44

going on on the Columbia campus, not

6:46

other campuses. And you know this is

6:48

really tough stuff because free speech is

6:50

very important. Anti semitism is unacceptable. Like

6:52

wading through all this making sure we're

6:54

protecting everybody's liberty. Make making sure where

6:56

like being true to all of our

6:58

principles that sometimes seem to be intentions.

7:00

This is tough to deal and I'm

7:02

really trying to us. no one's gonna

7:05

share that. Yeah, they're gonna, they're going

7:07

to Iran or share. Look at those

7:09

horrible anti semites Or they're gonna share.

7:11

And look at these people trampling on

7:13

students' rights rights and telling us we

7:15

don't have free speech. That's what they're

7:17

gonna share. Yeah, nobody refers to social

7:19

media as the home of nuance. Not

7:22

it's not hospitable to that's but

7:25

I guess what I've come to

7:27

the conclusion that in sinking of

7:29

in thinking about all of this

7:31

and your book. Underscores,

7:33

This. I'm. Politics.

7:36

Is now organized by some of

7:38

the same principles. Ah, you know

7:40

I say the sauce. And but

7:43

why is Marjorie Taylor Green? Who

7:46

has zero caloric content? Why

7:49

is she the one of the great

7:51

fundraisers in the. Republican.

7:53

Party because she is

7:55

the sort of personification

7:57

of the social media.

8:00

Sort of. She. Approached

8:02

the she. She. Hates

8:04

the people you hate even better than you

8:06

hit some. Nights and we have

8:09

more and more politicians saying vote for

8:11

me. Because. I hate the

8:13

people you hate as well as anybody else. I'm

8:15

gonna torments him. It's better than anybody else look

8:17

at. I mean I think you see her by

8:20

the way on this the I'm Certain rights my

8:22

not to see or says it's wells she's hard

8:24

to. I really do try not to charity. I

8:28

value this thing called Contentment a successor

8:30

to have you do that want to

8:32

know? Would want to talk about that

8:34

at the end. Ah, but don't know

8:37

after the vote or this weekend on

8:39

Saturday when she got. Beaten

8:42

back by Speaker Johnson on

8:44

the funding for Ukraine in

8:46

particular. You know she.

8:49

Was. Fulminating on the steps of the

8:51

capital and one of the things that she

8:53

said was you know he's he's he's a

8:55

lame duck he's not could be speaker dance

8:57

and she said she can even raise money.

9:01

And I thought that was a really

9:03

revealing comments will complement him. Up?

9:06

Yes, I mean, but really, what she

9:08

was saying is, you know if you

9:10

cooperate with the other side, if you

9:12

try and find middle ground, you can't

9:15

raise any money as can. I thought

9:17

the i Don't Know that She meant

9:19

to be this sort of enlightening comments,

9:21

but I found it to be a

9:23

real insight into the sort of psychology

9:25

of all of this. I know, Absolutely.

9:28

I mean, I was. thinking.

9:30

And I read about this in the books.

9:32

We talk a lot about Trump and Rhonda

9:34

Santas ultimately wasn't successful on what he most

9:36

wanted which was the Republican Presidential nomination and

9:39

and and after that presidencies in some ways.

9:41

To me, he's the most emblematic politician of

9:43

our air of you. Think about what he

9:45

claims as his distinctions as Governor of Florida

9:47

stocks of that all the people to whom

9:49

his deliver to come up as he has

9:52

his enemies list and he works his way

9:54

through. It's Disney, the Prosecutor and Tampa who

9:56

dared to speak up for abortion rights. And

9:58

on a nonce. It's like. Stop more,

10:00

These are crossing over. They got that enemy,

10:02

got that and and we got the next

10:04

enemies. In. Was when did

10:06

we. Went we become

10:09

a country in which a successful

10:11

politician signature phrase which is his

10:13

his Florida is where woke goes

10:16

to die. The. Neck That the

10:18

phrase death I mean that the word or

10:20

a very my yours yours is Aussi talks

10:22

about slitting the throats a beer or I'm

10:24

going to start slitting throats on day one.

10:27

When I get into office near the rate,

10:29

let me cast a vote for you. I

10:31

can't wait for the buyer, but some people

10:33

did of course. yeah and what he was

10:35

trying to do was out from from right.

10:37

Ah, which is term. Turns. Out is

10:40

impossible to do. But

10:42

ah, but it isn't your i

10:44

want to point out that in

10:46

this book. A

10:49

lot of examples you choose are not

10:51

just about right wing notice. In some

10:54

commentators you have a lot to say

10:56

about. Being. Intolerance on the left

10:58

as well. Yes, I don't think it's a

11:00

really tough thing to write and talk about

11:02

because I don't wanna. I don't want to

11:04

get into false equivalence has and I don't

11:07

think ice commit them in the book. On

11:09

and I don't think when we're talking about

11:11

grievance and recrimination and vengeful nurse not as

11:13

recess. I don't think the dangers are the

11:15

same on the right and the left. Or

11:18

at least I don't think right now each

11:20

side poses the same sort of risks. January

11:22

sixth was an act of the Right on

11:24

organize political violence In this country is predominantly

11:26

my. Overwhelmingly on the far right

11:28

and election denialism, it's much more

11:31

prevalent and recent examples of it

11:33

on the right. That said, this

11:35

sort of dynamic where you enter

11:37

the political arena us with a

11:39

sense that you want to with

11:42

a sense that it's us versus

11:44

them. They're evil and I'm virtuous

11:46

and is a kind of manichaean

11:48

battle. and I have been uniquely

11:51

wronged and I need recompense and

11:53

redress for that's that kind of

11:55

thinking exist across that. Well, And

11:57

of side with your right And I think you're right that

11:59

you know. From That's it. Also.

12:02

Accelerated that because there was such a

12:04

reaction to him fast and in so

12:06

many ways. I think that exacerbated things

12:08

because people set you up for so

12:11

they were horrified by him on the

12:13

left. But also if he's playing by

12:15

those rules were gonna play by by

12:17

those rules and you get this mad

12:20

spiral. But I have no a lot

12:22

of progress of friends. I think they

12:24

would claim me and and clean you

12:26

they would claim. And yes I've been

12:29

guilty of nuance from time to time

12:31

myself. see. Gonna were eager to work

12:33

on that assess, but dumb. But.

12:36

You know they are

12:38

so reflexes in their

12:40

judgments about everyone who

12:42

voted for Donald Trump.

12:44

Everyone who lives in Rural America.

12:47

I. Have a place in rural Michigan and I

12:49

have a lot of neighbors who I am who

12:52

I really appreciate as people. Some.

12:54

Of them voted for Barack Obama, then voted for

12:56

Donald Trump. But they're good

12:58

people. This and we relate as

13:01

human beings to each other. But

13:03

to make some of my friends

13:05

who never venture out of the

13:08

border of the metropolitan area, they

13:10

are caricature years in that in

13:12

it's very insidious and very dangerous

13:15

because we're. We're we're the

13:17

American community is being centers where where

13:19

where great a casting judgment or really

13:21

bad about giving people kind of see

13:23

time on the having some same race

13:26

or something along swimming still that put

13:28

a sock by someone who can come

13:30

you worked for whereas I'm is put

13:32

a cream else may captain which has

13:34

President Obama rights. It wasn't until he

13:36

was running for reelection was at with

13:38

two thousand and twelve that she did

13:40

publicly what everybody knew. My surprise occasion

13:42

he came out in support of Marriage

13:45

Equality Press was it. Wasn't

13:47

until early two thousand and thirteen

13:49

that Hillary Clinton went on the

13:51

record in support of marriage equality.

13:53

And yet by two thousand and

13:55

fourteen listen to the kind of

13:57

progressive democrat a conversation some six.

14:00

48-year-old woman in Alabama who

14:02

wasn't yet on the train was a

14:04

deplorable. She was an irredeemable bigot. She's

14:06

only one year behind Hillary Clinton, right?

14:08

I mean, we don't – there's no

14:10

grace anymore. There's no allowance for where

14:13

people have come from, what it might take for them

14:15

to get to a different place. And

14:17

the problem with that is – Both

14:20

ways. Yeah. And the problem

14:22

is that is when you cast those judgments, when

14:24

you vilify and damn people before you're giving them

14:26

a chance, you've guaranteed they're never going to get

14:28

where you want them to go. You're undermining your

14:30

actual goal when you make

14:33

it an all-or-nothing black and white thing in

14:35

real time. One of the things that I

14:37

learned doing this podcast

14:39

is how surprising

14:42

people can be if you're

14:44

just willing to listen. And

14:47

I had Ken

14:49

Buck last week on my

14:51

podcast who was the congressman from Colorado

14:54

who quit and who is – I

14:57

mean, there are a million things

14:59

that I think are completely nuts

15:02

that from my point

15:04

of view on a policy matter. And

15:07

he was very much a Freedom Caucus guy, ran

15:10

afoul of them because he certified

15:12

the election and

15:14

stood up for the election. But he

15:17

also was a guy who was

15:19

willing to work with Democrats

15:22

on policy issues. Big

15:24

– for example, on antitrust around

15:26

big tech. The person

15:28

who told me I should talk to him was

15:30

Amy Klobuchar. But that's more

15:33

– that's rarer and rarer because

15:35

there are political penalties for cooperation.

15:41

Well, we're sitting here less than a week after Mike

15:43

Johnson brought the Ukraine aid and

15:46

the Taiwan and Israel aid, et cetera, to a vote,

15:49

less than a week after it was passed. I

15:52

don't think Mike Johnson has any

15:54

business being Speaker of the House because he

15:57

was assertive in trying to overturn the legitimate

15:59

2020 election. the election, right? I do

16:01

not across the board have any kind of

16:03

respect for Mike Johnson because that is something

16:05

I don't think you can easily forgive. However,

16:08

we have to take our moments and our allies

16:10

where we find them. And he did something very

16:12

important and I wrote about it

16:14

this week. I said, you know, let's give him

16:16

a bit of praise because if we're gonna move

16:18

forward in this pluralistic, diverse democracy, we

16:21

have to be willing to give praise and thanks

16:23

to people with whom we typically disagree when they

16:25

do something we think is honorable because that's a

16:27

great way to maybe set it up to happen

16:29

more in the future. That may not be

16:31

as emotionally satisfying as just being constantly angry,

16:33

but it's much more constructive and productive. And

16:35

Mike Johnson said something really important. He said,

16:38

you know, I went, I

16:40

read these intelligence briefings, I learned stuff

16:42

I didn't know before, and I

16:45

changed my mind. How often do

16:47

you have anyone say that? Now

16:49

again, no business being speaker, but

16:51

let's congratulate him for that. You

16:53

know, the fact is

16:55

no one who had certified

16:58

the election could have been

17:00

speaker because they would

17:02

not have been accepted by

17:04

the caucus which was taking

17:06

its signals from Donald

17:08

Trump, although him getting the intelligence briefings reminds

17:10

me of the joke that George W. Bush

17:13

told at a White House correspondent's

17:15

dinner and he said, I know people don't think

17:18

I'm that smart. I think even my staff doesn't

17:20

think I'm that smart sometimes. I mean every day

17:23

they put these intelligence briefings on my schedule.

17:29

By the way, that

17:31

is an example of what

17:33

we need more of and you write about this,

17:35

which is a little bit of humility, a little

17:39

bit of self-effacement, a little

17:41

bit less, you know, so a

17:43

little bit less I alone can fix it. Yeah,

17:45

yeah, yes. Who

17:48

you're referring to there. I

17:50

heard those words were somewhere in our political

17:52

discussion in the last decade. I can't place

17:55

them now. But just

17:57

getting back to a second, how do we pay?

18:00

penetrate the

18:02

reward system. We have misaligned

18:04

incentives in politics,

18:07

in media. I think

18:09

all of this is churning so rapidly that

18:12

we as a society can't even get

18:14

our arms around the impacts of everything

18:16

we're being exposed to. How

18:18

do we reclaim that? I think it's with an effort

18:20

that involves a lot of different fronts and a lot

18:23

of different facets of society and I devote a chapter,

18:25

at least one chapter of the book to this. But

18:28

I think we need to look at certain

18:30

matters of political reform. If we did things

18:32

differently, we might get

18:34

a different kind of politician who's not a slave to

18:36

the incentive structure you just mentioned. I think

18:39

we have to work on it in the classroom and I know we'll

18:41

come back around to that because we're here as a university and

18:44

I now teach. I think there are

18:48

people who are studying who need to be encouraged,

18:51

different ways you could set up social media

18:53

platforms. The social media platforms in

18:55

favor at a given moment are changing all

18:57

the time. It's a really fluid situation. We

18:59

don't have to have a social media platform

19:03

that incentivizes things the way the current one

19:05

do. In fact, before Elon Musk bought Twitter,

19:08

a professor, a Duke who's in the forefront of

19:10

this was working with Twitter people. It all went away

19:12

when Elon bought it about coming up

19:15

with some sort of analog to Twitter, some

19:17

sort of offshoot where the

19:19

stuff that would rise to the top and that you

19:21

would most likely see weren't just the

19:23

posts that got the most likes or

19:25

the most shares, but the posts that

19:27

got the most likes or shares from

19:29

a diverse group of people. So this

19:31

post weirdly got as many shares from

19:34

people whom we can profile as being

19:36

on the right as people on the

19:38

left. This post seems to represent some

19:40

kind of consensus. Let's make

19:42

that the trending thing. We

19:44

can do all these sorts of things. We have the

19:47

digital and the technological abilities and

19:49

I think we need to try. We're

19:52

going to take a short break and we'll be right

19:54

back with more of the Xbox. This

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21:36

And now back to the show. The

21:43

question, you know, becomes, I mean

21:46

this is a hugely profitable

21:48

industry, you know, these

21:50

social media platforms. And the

21:52

question becomes, can you compete

21:54

with that? Let's

21:57

find out. No, I'm for it. Give it

21:59

a try. I

22:01

mean, there's a real, I think

22:03

we all end up surrendering to or just kind

22:05

of snapping back to our worst impulse or our

22:07

most tribal instincts. But I mean, I

22:09

know, and I'm guessing it's most of the people in

22:12

this room with us right now, I know it's you.

22:14

I mean, I know an enormous number of people, it

22:16

feels close to a critical mass who do not want

22:18

to go on like this, who

22:20

do not want to be fighting constantly

22:22

with people who have slightly or somewhat

22:24

different political opinions, who recognize

22:26

that compromise should not be a dirty word,

22:28

that common ground is sacred ground. I

22:31

mean, these people exist in large

22:33

number. And maybe if

22:35

we develop, maybe if we if we recognize

22:37

that smart that market is there, and we're

22:39

just smarter about developing products, platforms, whatever you

22:41

want to call them for that market, I

22:43

mean, let's give it a shot. You know,

22:45

it but it requires still, I think we

22:48

should give, take some

22:50

responsibility ourselves, it requires the

22:52

market to

22:54

take some action as well. I

22:57

mean, it is easy for

23:00

us to disdain the incumbent

23:02

politics of our time. But

23:05

it takes some effort to say, you know,

23:07

I'm going to vote in a primary, I'm

23:09

going to stand up for this candidate, I'm

23:12

going to give Mike Johnson credit, right,

23:14

for doing what he did. So

23:18

you know, I think part

23:20

of the problem is that we have

23:22

become a little passive about our obligations

23:25

in a democratic society to really

23:27

engage. And the people who

23:30

do engage tend to be the people who

23:32

are most influenced by

23:34

grievance. Well, so you're right.

23:36

So the other people have to step up and engage

23:38

with as much passion for dispassion, right.

23:41

But to your point about a market,

23:43

a great amount of dispassionate people get

23:45

in the fight. But to your

23:47

to your point about the market, a great illustration of this

23:49

is so after the 2016 election,

23:51

when I would be in a kind of public setting

23:53

like this, as someone who'd been writing about that election

23:55

for the times and had been at the times for

23:57

a long time, I would constantly get the question. from

24:00

groups of people like this, why did you all

24:03

write so much about Donald Trump? And I said,

24:05

it's a great question, let me ask you a

24:07

question, why did you all read so much about

24:09

Donald Trump? So you talk about the market, we're

24:11

getting the news that we deserve or that we

24:13

want more than ever before because we

24:15

have ways to measure what the audience is

24:17

doing. If people had clicked

24:20

with the same eagerness and frequency on

24:22

stuff about John Kasich as they did

24:24

on Donald Trump, within a week or

24:26

two weeks time you would have seen

24:28

a bevy of John Kasich coverage because

24:30

we know what readers are doing and

24:32

consumers are doing as never before and

24:35

we are commercial enterprises that invariably adjust

24:37

to that. So there is a responsibility

24:39

on the market. This is of course

24:41

always been the struggle with journalism, it's

24:44

both a business and a trust and

24:46

those things come into conflict in a

24:49

competitive era like this where

24:52

the internet has created all of

24:54

this competition and eroded

24:56

the financial base of

24:59

legacy media, being a

25:01

trust and a business is harder than

25:04

ever. You mentioned

25:08

that we're on a campus here at the Institute of Politics

25:10

at the University of Chicago. What

25:12

do you make of what's going on around

25:15

the country? You referenced it earlier but

25:17

this fury that we've seen on

25:19

campuses and you mentioned Mike

25:22

Johnson, he put a little

25:24

money back into the Goodwill Bank with

25:26

the right by going up to Columbia

25:28

and making an event. You

25:31

want the National Guard to come out. So

25:35

before we completely confer sainthood

25:37

on him. I

25:39

will say that. No, no,

25:42

listen, I am totally with you. I think

25:44

he did a courageous thing. I

25:46

think we need more of that. I

25:49

would like to see more instances

25:51

where Republicans and Democrats come

25:53

together around legislation. I

25:55

mean, and you know, it took

25:58

him a while but he got there. and I give him credit

26:01

for it. I'm not here to

26:03

castigate him, but the point is this

26:05

is a rip-roaring thing

26:08

that's going on right in the

26:10

middle of a political campaign and

26:12

it kind of feeds all the worst

26:16

instincts that you write about in your book.

26:18

Yeah, no, it's distressing to

26:20

watch. It is tough stuff, as

26:23

I said before. It's distressing to

26:25

watch because the various people engaged

26:27

on, you know, just for ease

26:29

of sake, opposite sides of this.

26:31

I don't see anyone trying to understand how the

26:33

other people feel. I see what

26:36

I too often see in our political and

26:38

cultural debates. I see each side saying, I

26:40

am being wronged here because of

26:43

those people and here's how

26:45

deeply I'm being wronged

26:48

here and here's how furious I

26:50

am. And if I convey my fury at

26:52

a volume and with a vocabulary that is more

26:54

intense than the other sides, that's the way

26:56

I'm going to win the day and that's the

26:58

way I'm going to get the most attention.

27:01

Nobody seems to want to pause and say,

27:03

well, why do

27:06

these students feel so unsafe and why are they

27:08

so kind of deeply hurt and offended and destabilized

27:10

by what we're saying? Nobody seems to want to

27:12

pause and do that. Nobody wants to pause and

27:14

say, okay, bringing the police and

27:16

calling for the National Guard, you know,

27:19

these things are extremely emphatic and

27:21

they seem to run counter to principles of

27:24

academic freedom and this is really tough stuff.

27:26

But nobody is trying to engage in it

27:28

with that recognition. Nobody is trying to talk

27:30

about it within a nuance. It

27:33

becomes a competition for who's most

27:35

victimized. Well, I think at

27:37

least as politicians go, there

27:40

is an impulse to weaponize everything

27:43

and this is part of that weaponization.

27:45

You know, I'm sure I've said it

27:47

before on this podcast, so I ask

27:49

people, forgive me, who've heard me say

27:51

this before, but it's really on my

27:53

mind these days. My

27:55

father was a refugee from

27:57

Eastern Europe, Jewish refugee. when

28:00

he was a kid, he remembered stepping over

28:02

dead bodies when he went with his father

28:05

to try and find some food. And

28:07

ultimately his home was blown up and they

28:10

left. And I

28:12

have a sense of solidarity with

28:15

Israel, but not necessarily the Israeli

28:17

government at all times. And

28:20

I actually, I was trying to think of what I

28:22

would be like when I was 20 years old and

28:25

watching these images from Gaza. And

28:27

I'd be deeply disturbed. I'm deeply disturbed by

28:29

it now. So I

28:31

understand the impulse of young people

28:34

to see this humanitarian disaster and

28:36

want to do something about

28:38

it. But if it tips

28:40

over into the dynamic that you've now

28:44

described where you, every

28:46

Jewish student is

28:48

in some ways complicit. But

28:51

just, I mean, if you're

28:53

a Jewish student and you're hearing

28:55

chants and cries that are glorifying

28:57

Hamas, that I mean, one of

28:59

the worst chants that I saw repeated was like

29:02

October 7th every day. Are you freaking kidding me?

29:04

Like if you can't understand that

29:06

saying that is, I mean,

29:09

deeply offensive isn't a strong enough term. If

29:11

you can't understand what that means to a Jewish student

29:13

who's hearing it, or really to kind of any moral

29:15

person who's hearing it, to me, if I'm hearing it,

29:17

but I'm not personally threatened, there's something

29:19

wrong with you. But as you

29:21

said, to not be able to understand that

29:24

a 20 year old seeing on his or

29:26

her their TikTok feed, the

29:28

devastation in Gaza, the toll

29:31

in Gaza, of course

29:33

you have to be bothered. This is a

29:35

really morally complex situation. You

29:37

see it with nuance. You just modeled nuance and thank

29:39

you for that. But what, to

29:42

go back to like- There goes my ratings. Yeah, well,

29:45

no, maybe you can like actually own the

29:47

market on nuance. You can corner the market on

29:50

nuance. But

29:52

I mean, but anyway. No,

29:54

no, you know, yes, I

29:56

would like to believe

29:59

that. thoughtful,

30:01

caring people would

30:03

be as empathetic to

30:05

the victims of October

30:07

7th and as appalled

30:09

by the mutilation and

30:12

sexual assault and everything that went

30:14

along with it and

30:16

understand the security,

30:19

the sort of sense of

30:21

insecurity that that and it

30:23

was meant to provoke in

30:25

Israelis. At the same time,

30:29

I think it's possible to hold these thoughts at the

30:31

same time and have but

30:35

just because you are on a campus

30:39

now and you're actually teaching

30:41

this very subject or have

30:43

been teaching it. I have a

30:45

course called the age of grievance. But

30:47

you've talked about the infantilization

30:50

process, the infantilization of Americans

30:52

and I assume students are part of what's

30:54

on your mind. Talk about that. I

30:56

think we spend way too much time worried

30:59

about never offending them. Never. I

31:02

mean, the trigger warnings are the cliched example of this and

31:04

trigger warnings are not as common in the classroom as

31:06

people think they do exist. And

31:08

in a kind of metaphoric and emblematic way, they kind of

31:10

say it all. Life is triggering, right?

31:13

I mean, you are going to meet all

31:15

sorts of people who act in ways and

31:17

say things that aren't to your liking and

31:20

that sometimes maybe insult you. You

31:22

are going to encounter circumstances that

31:24

call into question your competencies at times because we are

31:26

all not good at everything, et

31:29

cetera, and on and on. And there is

31:31

something about education currently in

31:33

many places. There is something about the

31:35

modern campus that I think too often

31:37

sends students the message that

31:39

everything should be clover all the time. Grade inflation

31:41

is a great example of this. I mean, everyone

31:44

I'm sure has read the stories. But I

31:46

mean, the normal grade at an elite university

31:48

right now is an A minus. I

31:51

was in a meeting at one point at Tuesday

31:53

half a century before my time. We

31:57

grew up way too late. I

32:00

was, I can't remember the exact numbers I was in

32:02

a meeting at Duke at one point and they showed

32:04

the statistics for what grade point average you

32:06

needed to be on the Dean's list, which I think

32:08

is top 10%, but again, I can't remember

32:10

all of this. And it was something like 3.92. 3.92,

32:14

I mean, so that means if you don't, I

32:16

mean, I've taught students and they're just living in

32:18

this world and trying to get through it, but

32:21

I am blessed and compliment enough that I have

32:23

a lot of STEM students who when they have

32:26

to take a humanities class will take one of

32:28

my classes. My

32:30

classes tend to be somewhat writing centric, writing based, and

32:32

some of them that's not their strength and they get

32:34

a first paper back and it has an 86 or

32:36

an 87 on it and it's like

32:39

an existential crisis for them because

32:42

they know that if they want to get into

32:44

med school, the difference between a 3.99 and

32:46

a 3.83 could be make or break

32:49

and they didn't invent

32:53

that system, but they're living in it. And

32:56

you think, I mean, how do we get

32:58

out of this? Because that's insane. I mean,

33:00

they're not getting in there. Well, there's also

33:02

the whole notion of not wanting to hear

33:05

words that are offensive.

33:08

We've had that debate for many years

33:11

now and you and

33:13

several places in the book, you have

33:15

sort of the most absurd examples of this

33:17

talk about that. Oh, the forbidden language glossaries.

33:20

Yes, I mean, many organizations have lists of

33:22

words that they say they want no one

33:24

speaking anymore. Some of

33:26

them I didn't even understand. A

33:29

year or two ago, Stanford came out

33:31

with, I think it was called the

33:33

harmful language or the hurtful language glossary.

33:36

There were words on there like brave. Brave

33:39

is not allowed because some

33:41

people hear a kind of

33:44

reductive caricature reference to Native Americans

33:46

there. That's not what I hear when I, you

33:49

know, you have to educate people on why the word

33:51

might be bad so they know to be offended by

33:53

it because otherwise they weren't. There's an

33:56

example in that. I

33:58

think it was. a

34:00

higher ed. One of the websites ran

34:02

a hilarious story about one of the

34:04

band expressions was hip hip hooray. Because

34:08

according to Stanford that was a Nazi chant.

34:11

And a journalist with Inside Higher Ed,

34:13

it was that publication slash website, went out

34:15

and interviewed several rabbis and they're like, that

34:18

could be news to all of my congregants.

34:20

I mean, it was like this search,

34:23

this search for things to be offended

34:25

by, which kind of

34:27

says it all about the age of grievance. Like

34:29

we're itching for offense. We want

34:31

to find the worst possible interpretation

34:34

of something so that we can

34:36

then play the role of

34:38

victim and feel as wronged as

34:40

we see other people telling us they feel. Because we don't

34:42

want to lose out on that competition. And again, if you're

34:44

spending 10 or 12

34:46

hours a day, I'm holding up a cell phone

34:48

here for those of you who can't see on

34:51

my podcast. Your

34:54

screen is very clean. Oh, no,

34:56

no, it's not. You're making me feel really

34:58

slovenly. Yeah. That

35:01

it is not clean. But in any case,

35:03

I'll give you a good example. And I

35:05

mean, there's so many versions of this forbidden

35:07

language list. Sierra Club has one various universities

35:09

have them. One of the things

35:11

that always makes the list always is

35:15

blind study, blind faith, anything

35:17

blind, because that is insulting

35:20

to people with vision disorders and vision

35:22

Okay, I'm half blind. And I live

35:25

in danger of going blind. I know

35:27

a metaphor. When I hear and

35:29

see you're not half insulted

35:31

by if you want to tell me you think I

35:33

have blind faith in something, I'm not going to go

35:35

report you to the censors or whatever. I'm just gonna,

35:38

I'm just gonna, you know, tell you no on

35:40

that thing, I actually have have, you know, cited

35:42

faith or whatever. But yeah, it just gets really

35:44

it gets really ridiculous. And the problem is, when

35:47

we're, when we're

35:49

fighting these silly battles, right, when we're taking it

35:51

into these dimensions, it enables people to kind of

35:54

a they lose sight of what's really important and

35:56

urgent and what's not. And it

35:58

enables because there are things that deeply

36:00

offended. Right, and it enables them to tune you

36:02

out when you're actually saying something that they need

36:04

to hear. It kind of, it diminishes

36:07

your credibility as someone coming into the public

36:09

square. It was something important to talk about.

36:12

When you're waging these really kind

36:14

of petty, invented, you know,

36:17

marginal whatever word you want to put

36:19

on that. I was interested

36:21

in an anecdote you told about the

36:24

2012 election and there was one point, there

36:27

was a story about Mitt Romney bullying

36:32

an effeminate classmate when he was

36:34

in high school and they called

36:36

you in to comment on this.

36:38

I guess because you're a

36:40

gay man they thought that you would supply

36:43

the requisite

36:45

umbrage about it and

36:48

you gave a more nuanced answer and

36:52

that they either didn't go forward

36:54

with it. They unbooked

36:56

me. They unbooked me. You

36:58

could have feigned outrage and got on there and done your thing. I

37:00

told that story as an example of how many

37:02

of us, how everyone seems to

37:05

kind of choose a brand, feel they have to

37:07

play to the brand. I think it's a problem

37:09

in the media and now I'm talking about conventional

37:11

media not social media where I think so many

37:13

people are rewarded for having one lens with which

37:15

they look at the world and

37:18

you go to read them or you listen to them because you

37:20

know they're going to put that lens over every situation.

37:22

Your views are affirmed but not necessarily informed.

37:24

And you want that person to be predictable

37:26

which means that person can't be intellectually honest

37:28

because they're reading off a script. Jason

37:32

Horowitz who now works at the Times was then working at

37:34

the Washington Post. He wrote this long

37:36

story for the Washington Post where he had

37:38

been looking into Mitt Romney's childhood just in

37:40

the course of doing profiles and at the

37:42

Cranbrook Academy in suburban Detroit where Mitt Romney

37:44

went to private school. Some people

37:46

remember that he and some other students had

37:49

bullied this fellow

37:52

student who was somewhat effeminate. They didn't call

37:54

that student gay at the time. It was

37:56

a different time but it was clearly a

37:58

kind of gay harassment. And,

38:00

you know, obviously it was not something

38:03

that was kind or to be

38:05

admired or whatever. This

38:07

kind of blew up the way stories blew up.

38:09

It's an easy one to talk about. CNN, MSNBC,

38:11

everybody's talking about it. Somebody at

38:13

MSNBC called me, I forget which show it was, or

38:16

emailed me and said, would you come on a panel tomorrow

38:18

to talk about the Mitt Romney story? And I knew why

38:20

they were calling me. First openly gay columnist from the New

38:22

York Times. I wrote a lot about gay rights. I said,

38:24

sure. Fine. Yeah.

38:27

I'll be there. They

38:29

did someone called to give a pre-interview. And they said, well,

38:31

what would you say about it? And I said,

38:33

well, I would say it's a really sad and

38:35

distressing story. Your heart goes out to the student

38:37

who was the victim of this bullying. And

38:40

you certainly never want to see this happen. But I

38:42

would also say, it's 45 years ago, an entirely

38:46

different America. I know I'm

38:48

not the person I was when I

38:50

was a teenager, and I assume Mitt Romney isn't. So

38:52

I would say, like, let's condemn

38:55

this. Let's say it

38:57

should never have happened. But let's also recognize

38:59

that it doesn't necessarily tell us a whole

39:01

lot about Mitt Romney today in

39:03

a much more enlightened world, 40, 45 years

39:06

more mature. And

39:08

I got an email, like, really shortly after saying,

39:10

you know what? We don't need you anymore

39:12

for the panel tomorrow. We're

39:15

going to take a short break, and we'll be right

39:17

back with more of the Axbuds. And

39:28

now back to the show. You

39:35

look at the model

39:37

for cable television right now, and,

39:40

you know, you've got these polls. I

39:42

mean, I'm sitting in the middle over there at CNN, but MSNBC

39:45

has basically gone all in on

39:47

the sort of, you

39:50

know, Trump 24 anti-Trump progressive

39:53

dogma. Fox is Fox. And

39:56

they're doing pretty well with that. I

39:58

mean, they're getting audience. So,

40:00

again, it's a question of

40:03

misplaced incentives. I

40:05

mean, these stations

40:08

are – these networks are

40:10

struggling because all of cable

40:12

television is struggling. That is a cheap and

40:14

easy way to get

40:16

an audience. It's

40:19

so dark because you're not only getting an audience

40:21

– I've got a lot of friends over there.

40:23

But you're not only getting an audience – let's

40:25

take Fox News. You're not only getting an audience

40:27

by being skewed. You're keeping your

40:30

audience by letting them tell you what

40:32

the truth is and then giving it

40:35

back to them. I mean, the Dominion voting system

40:37

story is so scary. $787.5 million

40:39

judgment. And

40:41

why? Because it was proven.

40:43

Against Fox. Yeah, against Fox. And why?

40:46

Because it was proven in internal emails,

40:48

internal texts that as they were putting

40:50

these people on the air saying, oh,

40:52

the voting machines were rigged

40:54

or the voting machines were corrupted or whatever,

40:56

they knew it was ridiculous. They were talking

40:59

with each other, you know, this is just

41:01

crazy, whatever. And then they kept

41:03

looking to people because, as was said, in those

41:05

texts, in those emails, and that's why Fox was

41:07

like, we got to settle this and get the

41:09

hell away from it. It was literally saying, if

41:11

we don't do this, they'll go somewhere else. Like

41:14

if we don't do this, one American news will do it

41:16

or Breitbart will do it or whatever. And

41:18

I mean, this is such a bastard –

41:20

I mean, bastardization is not a strong enough

41:22

word. This is the opposite of what news

41:25

isn't supposed to be. They were basically like,

41:27

we know what the truth is. Our

41:30

audience wants a lie. So let's go

41:32

all in on the lie because that

41:34

is the only path of economic sanity.

41:37

Yes. Yeah. And

41:39

they – yeah. And this – They parted

41:42

with almost three-quarters of a billion dollars

41:44

because they knew that it would be

41:46

ugly to move. Or caught them the

41:48

king of grievance, Tucker Carlson had a

41:50

lease. But this strikes to

41:52

the problem that includes social media but isn't

41:54

just social media. The internet came along. Once

41:57

The cable dial became hundreds and hundreds

42:00

and hundreds. hundreds of stations. We are

42:02

able to search your but A Cure

42:04

rates the information. And

42:06

the news we wants on and it turns

42:09

out to be our nature of it. As

42:11

we as we go about saturation to choose

42:13

things the tell us exactly what we want

42:15

to. Well they're limited, they're and their job

42:18

at Nova net the same script that is

42:20

yes and that is a from a if

42:22

if you want to have one American community

42:24

but you're all hearing different things that me

42:26

you point out of the books that there

42:29

could be in a van and if you

42:31

depending on which network you listen to or

42:33

which you know site you read you have

42:35

an entirely. Different interpretation of events and

42:38

it's very hard to come to

42:40

consensus if you're not at least

42:42

agreeing on what the basic facts

42:44

are, that sites and it it.

42:46

And it so insidious. Because I

42:48

know so many people, I've seen,

42:50

some my students, some whose feel.

42:53

That. They're very deeply informed because they're these

42:55

twenty different sites they check out, but

42:57

they never kind of pause and say,

42:59

wait a second. All that each. each

43:01

one of these twenty sites is an

43:03

anagram of the other one. Friends. But

43:05

here's where I think on. and I

43:07

think ever see Chicago on is a

43:09

paragon of doing this. Well, I think

43:12

more school, more say that behind our

43:14

backs I will. I didn't know, I

43:16

do snow and I think more Scorsese

43:18

do it's I'm a lot of this

43:20

is reflexive behavior that people students will

43:22

try to change. Once they made aware

43:24

of that. So we have really interesting

43:26

discussions of my classrooms about how did

43:28

you kind of set up your news

43:30

feed, like how much intention has gone

43:32

in to whom you're following on the

43:34

very social media platforms into what's bookmarks,

43:36

etc. and and if you get people

43:38

in this case students to kind of

43:40

pause reflect added to ask themselves what

43:42

what what kind of person to I

43:45

really want to be? What am I

43:47

really trying to accomplish here is is

43:49

the information scape than I'm that I'm

43:51

striding across doing that for me. you

43:53

can you can have you think will

43:55

make adjustments sometimes they will change but

43:57

nobody's having that conversely with them. We're

43:59

not having that conversation with one another.

44:01

Well, I'll tell you, I mean, if

44:04

you permit me 30 seconds

44:06

of advertising, I'm very, very proud

44:08

of the Institute of Politics because

44:10

of the tradition of

44:12

discourse, civil discourse that we've

44:15

modeled. And, you know, we've had

44:17

some hard conversations here, but

44:20

in the main, they've been

44:22

respectful conversations and we have

44:24

a community. And I think

44:26

what's what's been

44:28

shattered is that sense of community.

44:30

I mean, I think there is real

44:32

happiness to be found in, if

44:35

you can get there, in

44:37

kindness, in grace, in

44:40

empathy, and in the

44:42

hard work of trying to understand each other

44:44

instead of villainize each

44:46

other. Frank, you write a

44:48

little bit about history. I

44:50

want to talk about how we got here.

44:53

We've talked a lot about the media, but

44:55

there have been events. I mean, you

44:57

know, there's the old expression, just because you're

45:00

paranoid doesn't mean someone's not after you. You

45:02

know, we've gone through a very, very

45:04

difficult period. I mean, and one thing

45:06

you didn't talk about so

45:09

much is the dislocation that globalization

45:12

and trade and automation

45:14

has brought. And we're here in the Midwest. There

45:16

are a lot of communities that were decimated by

45:19

that. There's reason to be

45:21

disillusioned. If you're on the losing side

45:24

of that equation,

45:26

you covered the 2000

45:28

election in which there was, that

45:30

was the first election in which there was

45:32

disquiet about the result. We,

45:35

obviously 9-11 and then 20 years of war that followed, that disproportionately

45:40

the burden of which was borne by

45:42

a small percentage, 1%

45:46

of the population. The financial

45:48

crisis and the pandemic, this

45:51

has been an incredibly difficult

45:53

period. So to

45:56

some degree, how much has

45:58

that unique uniquely shaped

46:02

where we are. We've had other periods after

46:04

the Gilded Age or during the

46:06

Gilded Age where

46:08

you had anti-immigrant sentiment,

46:11

you had populism. William Jennings Bryan

46:14

made his famous Cross of Gold speech like

46:16

a few blocks from here in 1896, I

46:18

guess. How much of

46:23

this, you're pretty tough

46:25

on us as

46:28

a whole, but how much of this is

46:31

explained by events? A

46:33

lot of it is explained by events and-

46:35

Sorry for the long wind up there. No,

46:37

it's okay. I mean, one of the chapters

46:39

in the book that

46:42

I don't know if most enjoyed writing, but I was

46:44

most interested to write, speaks to this, which is everything

46:47

you're talking about is part and parcel of a

46:49

term in this country in my adult lifetime toward

46:52

a magnitude and a depth of pessimism

46:55

that are so different from 20, 30, 40 years ago. The idea

46:57

that we are

47:01

a sort of congenitally and

47:03

expansively optimistic country has

47:05

always been a little bit overstated. If you

47:07

go back, there are plenty of periods where

47:09

that wasn't true. But fundamentally, I do

47:11

think the idea that

47:13

America is a land of optimism. Tomorrow will

47:16

be better than yesterday was, the endless frontier

47:18

and all that. There's a lot

47:20

of truths to that in terms of the American

47:22

psyche. That is not where we are anymore. If

47:24

you look at poll results over time, there's

47:27

been a big change in the percentage of Americans

47:29

who, when you say, do you expect your kids

47:31

to do better than you? Yeah, 27%. That

47:33

used to be easily a majority and often

47:35

a big one, not anymore. When

47:39

people no longer have a sturdy faith

47:41

in the future, when

47:43

they don't trust the economy to grow, when

47:46

they don't think the metaphorical pie is expanding,

47:48

they invariably get much more possessive

47:50

and petty and competitive about

47:53

their piece of the pie. They become much

47:55

more sensitive to the idea that I'm not

47:57

being given a fair shot at my piece.

48:00

If you think everything is a

48:02

zero-sum game, your relationship with your

48:04

fellow country people is going to

48:06

be entirely different. And that,

48:08

as a result of many of the events that you

48:10

just mentioned and ticked off, is

48:12

a big part of why we're so dyspeptic. And

48:15

so if you're thinking about it right now. Well, it's big about ticked off. I

48:17

mean, one of the reasons people are ticked off is

48:20

that it is not

48:23

an imagined thing that the American dream

48:26

is really sort of a fiction in that

48:28

we are, I think we're 27th among the

48:33

major industrial nations in

48:35

terms of social mobility.

48:39

And we have a high, high level

48:41

of economic polarization,

48:44

inequality. I mean, these

48:46

are not imagined things. And when

48:48

you add to that pessimism, we have these, and this

48:50

is a phrase I think I borrowed. Don't worry folks,

48:52

we're going to lift this thing at the end. I

48:55

don't want you guys to go home filled

48:58

with grievance. This

49:00

is a phrase I think I borrowed from Tom

49:02

Nichols who writes for The Atlantic and wrote a

49:04

very good book called Our Own Worst Enemy. We

49:06

have these engines of envy, right,

49:08

that when you add them to pessimism are

49:10

a real problem. We talked about various problems

49:13

with social media. Another problem with social media

49:15

is people go on their Instagram feeds or

49:17

whatever and they get this completely false sense

49:19

of how charmed everybody else's lives are. I

49:22

mean, on Instagram somebody is always clinking champagne

49:24

glasses on a tropical island as the sun

49:26

is setting at a wedding, right? I've

49:28

never been to a wedding like that but apparently everyone else is

49:31

going to them or that's what people think,

49:33

right? Well, look at the shows, the lifestyle,

49:35

the rich and famous and all of that.

49:37

These promote envy and we've also in

49:39

our service economy, and I write about

49:41

this in the book too, we've developed

49:44

these tiers of coddling and these microclimates

49:46

of privilege that never existed before, right?

49:48

I mean, look at the model. I've

49:50

never even heard that microclimates of privilege.

49:52

It's in the book. But

49:56

I mean, look at like when I was young, My... It

50:00

I very indulgent parents and so I went

50:02

to a lot of amusement parks. I don't

50:04

remember a cut the line. Think.

50:07

There was no cut the My Dynamics I

50:09

don't remember all of these different things you

50:11

could pay extra for so that while somebody

50:13

else was on a two and a half

50:15

hour line sweating in the sun for Space

50:17

Mountains, you were zipping to twenty different rides

50:19

and three hours because you could pay for.

50:21

these things happen in front of you. when

50:23

you go to the airports, you see whether

50:25

someone's going into T Essay or Clear or

50:28

just the the line. for everybody else you

50:30

see who gets on the plane and doesn't

50:32

have to worry about the overhead bin and

50:34

who ends up having to check their bags

50:36

at the last. Minutes and or Service economy

50:38

has these gradations that didn't exist in the

50:40

same way before and so even as we're

50:42

worried that our economy's not growing in that

50:45

it's a zero sum game so we're constantly

50:47

face to face with the people have it

50:49

a little better than us and the people

50:51

who have it a little better than them.

50:53

and then the people that tippy top. Here's

50:56

a tip for travelers by the way it's

50:58

so many people now are having are buying

51:00

clear that you're better off on the T

51:02

s a line which is why you that's

51:04

have free bit of advice for. Ah

51:07

of for already a solution to grievance

51:09

to stick with a D S A.

51:12

Battle show. But one of thing

51:14

that strikes me. As we

51:17

talk about says first boss that

51:19

the the media environment exacerbates the

51:21

problems The problems that you're talking

51:23

about here. So let's just stipulate

51:25

that's but Also we did come

51:28

through this extraordinary time in our

51:30

history of World war to end

51:32

of the. Depressions, The

51:34

economic boom that followed in

51:36

which all boats really were

51:38

lifted for several decades. Ah

51:41

I'm and it was sort

51:43

of a not said it

51:45

was perfect and you know

51:47

their whole classes of citizens

51:49

who are who are left

51:51

behind including women. Ah but

51:53

ah. But. There was

51:55

a sense of more of a sense

51:57

of community, more of a sense of

51:59

possibility. More of a sense that we can. Achieve

52:02

great things and I wonder if some

52:04

the adam as asian of us as

52:06

a society and nothing to really draw

52:09

us together is part of this age

52:11

of pessimism as well It is And

52:13

it's not as we talked about how

52:15

people get silent that my son social

52:17

media and it's also to in terms

52:20

of where we live in of them

52:22

in a lot written about says his

52:24

this is proven sorting here where where

52:26

sorting ourselves in every facet of our

52:28

allies. so obviously what we need to

52:31

do as we. Need to figure out

52:33

some ways in which we kind of

52:35

unsworth ourselves Centers ways exist. I mean,

52:37

there's a reason. a politician that both

52:39

you and I admire You introduce me

52:41

to him years ago and he was

52:43

still the Mayor South Bend, Indiana some.

52:45

But as a reason people are just

52:47

and so much time during his presidential

52:49

campaign talking about a national surface pro

52:51

Gas because we don't have those sorts

52:53

of shared experiences and shared missions. We

52:55

especially don't have shared experiences and shared

52:57

missions. The cut across minds of region

52:59

and class and education level and race

53:01

on and allow. Us to have

53:03

conversations with people we wouldn't normally

53:05

need to understand them. not as

53:08

caricature stereotypes, but as flesh and

53:10

blood human beings is almost always

53:12

when you see squabbles that doesn't

53:15

evolve into epic battles that have

53:17

no business being epic battles. Almost

53:19

always you see people who have

53:22

ceased to regard one another. As.

53:24

Complex human beings and just see

53:27

them as sort as on combatants

53:29

and stereotypes and a was. Ill.

53:32

Yeah. Poland. We can do that. We can

53:34

do national service. We can design. we

53:37

get this is a wonderful book written by

53:39

i'm gonna i'm gonna mangos last names on

53:41

knock us have of the book is called

53:44

palaces for the people and it's basically about

53:46

how if you invest in certain sorts of

53:48

public infrastructure you create meeting grounds for divergence

53:50

people getting a road was mans is yes

53:53

the public library still that for those of

53:55

us is still use since the public library

53:57

is still a place where you walk and

53:59

And it's not all the same kind of person,

54:02

at least not unless you're like in a very

54:04

kind of particular enclave. So why aren't we putting

54:06

more money into public libraries? Why aren't we putting

54:08

more money into public squares? When

54:10

we have the opportunity to do,

54:13

to redesign or design cities, why aren't

54:15

we being really careful about placing the

54:18

park, not so that it's within one

54:20

kind of community, but so that each

54:22

side of the park touches a different

54:24

kind of community and that park ends

54:26

up becoming a crossroads? We can do

54:28

these things if we prioritize them.

54:31

You know, so much when I read

54:33

your prescriptions for solutions, political solutions

54:35

and other solutions, I find myself

54:37

in agreement with virtually

54:39

all of them. But being

54:42

the hack that I am, my thoughts run

54:44

to Ken, but how do

54:46

you implement, would there

54:48

be a willingness to implement

54:50

national service? You know,

54:52

would that be accepted or would that become

54:55

a polarizing thing? The, you

54:57

know, the compulsory. That

55:00

is, it's interesting. I think one of the reasons

55:02

that conversation gets shut down is because we all

55:04

assume it would be compulsory. I agree with you.

55:06

It could never work as compulsory, but you could

55:09

build in all sorts of incentives that

55:11

would tempt people to go into national service. And

55:13

you could almost see away if you did it

55:15

correctly, in which it becomes so, for lack of

55:17

a better word, fashionable, that nobody doesn't

55:20

want to be, nobody wants to be the person

55:22

who's not doing it. But you could, first of

55:24

all, national service can take many forms. And

55:26

in kind of like vis-a-vis each of

55:29

those forms, you could give some of the people

55:31

who do it sort of first in line shot

55:33

at certain job applications and interviews. You

55:35

could, you could release to. Or at least get

55:38

them to cut the line on Space Mountain. Yeah.

55:41

Right. There you go. But I mean, rather

55:43

than just relieving student debt with a pen, sort

55:45

of indiscriminately, you could do a

55:47

sort of GI Bill version of if you do

55:50

national service, you will get some money

55:52

for college, or you will have certain college loans forgiven,

55:54

or however you want to do it. You

55:56

can build in incentives that I think would

55:58

get more people. than many people

56:00

maybe believe to do this sort of thing. And I

56:02

think it would be one of those things that built

56:04

on itself. Yeah. There is a

56:07

mismatch that makes some of

56:09

these things harder. That goes

56:11

to a lot of what we discussed before.

56:13

That really worries me, which is that change

56:16

is coming because the

56:18

exponential pace of media,

56:21

of social media and technology. Change

56:24

is coming at us faster and faster. The

56:26

perception of change, as you point out,

56:29

is designed to raise our level of anxiety

56:32

and divide us. And in our

56:34

democracy, in most democracies, we're designed

56:37

to move more slowly when we're

56:39

divided. So you have government sort

56:42

of flat-footed and seemingly unable to

56:45

address these major

56:47

issues and people feeling

56:49

more and more anxious about

56:51

the pace of change. So

56:54

that worries me. This is another major thing.

56:56

But what we need is some wisdom in

56:59

terms of recognizing these problems and awareness

57:01

that we have to deal with them.

57:04

So what gives you hope? Look at

57:07

some of the stuff that has happened

57:09

during the Biden presidency that

57:11

the description you just gave, one would

57:13

assume nothing has happened. Yes. And

57:16

that's not true. We keep seemingly

57:18

trying to shoot ourselves in the foot

57:20

and yet hobbling forward anyway. That

57:23

gives me an enormous enough thought. Although that seems

57:25

like a bad model. I'm

57:27

not. I mean, you know, it's

57:29

great that the Ukraine vote finally happened.

57:33

It's not great that it took so many months and how

57:35

many lives were lost. And we

57:38

hope that it's not too late because

57:41

so much ground has been lost. I'll

57:44

tell you what gives me hope. And you may

57:47

share this. And there are a few

57:49

young people in this room. I

57:51

thought you were going to say Taylor Swift. I

57:55

feel like every conversation ends with Taylor Swift. I've

57:57

managed to avoid that in 500. 70-something

58:00

podcasts. So I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon.

58:02

I've broken the record. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, but

58:04

every time I sit down with

58:06

young people here or

58:09

wherever I travel, you know, I've had

58:12

so many conversations that made me, make me,

58:14

because they're skeptical as they should be but

58:16

they're not cynical and they

58:19

recognize their obligations to build

58:21

something better. They're frustrated with

58:24

us for not building something better. And

58:26

I just think if we sort of get out

58:28

of the way, give them some helpful

58:31

guidance, but give them the

58:33

opportunity to grow and

58:35

lead that we could get to a

58:39

better place. And so I actually come

58:41

here to the Institute of Politics to

58:43

charge my batteries when I'm feeling a

58:46

little bit depleted. And you

58:48

probably feel the same way. I hope so

58:50

because if you don't, I'm gonna feel

58:52

stupid. No, no, I do. I do.

58:55

But I wasn't entirely joking about Taylor Swift.

58:57

I really wasn't. I

58:59

was thinking about this as her tour. I

59:01

have nothing against her. No, no, but in

59:04

all seriousness, as her tour became the kind

59:06

of phenomenon it did, right? And

59:08

as she became the kind of phenomenon she is,

59:11

it speaks not just to her music or her

59:13

talent or the marketing. It speaks to something else.

59:16

People began to

59:18

rush toward that because it was common ground.

59:20

It gave them a common language. They could

59:22

talk. It was something everybody was...

59:25

It showed to me that there is a

59:27

hunger for shared experiences.

59:29

There's a hunger for a

59:31

common vocabulary. That

59:33

gives me a lot of hope. Yeah. Well, and

59:35

you know, you see it in sports actually. This

59:38

whole Caitlin Clark thing

59:40

and this rise

59:42

of women's basketball and this

59:45

kind of... It's like there are things

59:47

that you can have conversations about and

59:50

wherever people come from, they can jump in. And

59:52

all of a sudden you have this

59:55

common link. It's one of the things that

59:57

I love about sports. do

1:00:00

millions of Americans who pay no attention to

1:00:02

professional football all season long, tune into the

1:00:04

Super Bowl and decide on the team to

1:00:06

report because they yearn for that common experience.

1:00:08

They want to be part of something larger.

1:00:10

And if that can exist at a Taylor

1:00:12

Swift concert, if that can exist to the

1:00:14

Super Bowl, well, then there's a chance it

1:00:16

can exist in our civic life. All

1:00:19

right. Well, let's make that our final

1:00:21

prayer. The book is called The Age

1:00:23

of Grievance by Frank Bruni. As everything

1:00:25

you write, Frank, it's well worth

1:00:27

reading. And I hope that a lot of people

1:00:29

will because it goes to sort of the central

1:00:31

challenge of our time. But always a pleasure to

1:00:33

be with you. Thank you. My privilege. Thank

1:00:36

you. Thank

1:00:39

you for listening to the Ax Files, brought to

1:00:41

you by the Institute of Politics at

1:00:43

the University of Chicago and CNN

1:00:45

Audio. The executive producer of

1:00:47

the show is Miriam Fender Annenberg.

1:00:50

The show is also produced by Sarah

1:00:52

Lena Berry, Jeff Fox and Hannah

1:00:55

Grace McDonald. And special thanks

1:00:57

to our partners at CNN, including

1:00:59

Steve Lichtai and Haley Thomas. For

1:01:02

more programming from the IOP,

1:01:04

visit politics.uchicago.edu.