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now from the Institute of Politics

0:38

at the University of Chicago and

0:40

CNN Audio, the Axwiles. With

0:42

your host, David Axelrod. I

0:46

always enjoy chatting with Fareed Zakaria. You

0:48

know him. Brilliant commentator, broadcaster,

0:50

documentarian, and author. And I was

0:52

reminded of it all over again

0:55

when we sat down last week

0:57

at the University Club in Chicago

0:59

to talk about his latest book,

1:01

Age of Revolutions. It was a

1:03

great and sobering discussion about the

1:05

stormy epoch through which we and

1:08

liberal democracies everywhere are living

1:10

today. Here's that conversation. Fareed,

1:17

it's good to see you. It's

1:19

a huge pleasure to be here. To those who

1:21

saw me at the gym when I was sweaty,

1:24

I hope you notice I cleaned up nicely. I

1:26

have to say this is the nicest room I have ever

1:29

done a talk in. Have you

1:31

said that before? No, your Axwiles audience won't be

1:33

able to see, but this is like you're in

1:35

a cathedral. Yes. Well,

1:38

because they can see, I

1:41

want to tell you that we always do it in rooms like this. So,

1:46

Fareed, I think

1:48

the last time we spoke on the

1:51

podcast was after your book on

1:54

post-pandemic America. I

1:56

want to actually ask you in A

1:59

little bit about what role. Pandemic has played

2:01

in the sort of. Tumultuous,

2:04

Environment in which we find ourselves

2:06

today. But this book which is

2:08

a really important book. The Age

2:10

of Revolutions, Progress and Backlash from

2:12

sixteen hundred to the present. A

2:15

something that you been working on

2:17

for decades. Before.

2:20

Before for accents a tell me

2:22

what prompted you Start this. To

2:25

start. This war you know About

2:27

ten years ago I began to

2:29

notice that it seemed like politics

2:32

in America initially was being offended

2:34

that with things happening that seemed

2:36

big breaks with. A pattern

2:38

that you had given see normally and

2:40

this was a would have a world

2:42

you are living through. While I was

2:45

in a sense studying it, the Tea

2:47

Party the way in which the Tea

2:49

Party came out of nowhere and almost

2:51

took over the megaphone of the Republican

2:53

party and soon essentially took over the

2:55

Republican party. There was a wonderful book

2:57

by See the Scots follow scholar at

3:00

Yale who spend a lot of time

3:02

talking to these people and she found

3:04

that while there was a in, there

3:06

was an initial feeling that. This. Was

3:08

all about. This was the traditional Republicans

3:10

urgency you. These people were tired of

3:13

big government, they wanted low taxes and

3:15

she discovered the more times you spend

3:17

with them that wasn't the case at

3:20

all. This was fundamentally about cultural issues.

3:22

It is about immigration, about multiculturalism, about

3:24

what we would today call the Woke

3:27

Agenda and a lot of it in

3:29

reaction to the first black President and

3:31

the history of the United States. Then

3:33

I began to do to notice that

3:36

you were also seen something unusual. In

3:38

in terms of a break with history which

3:40

was said by about. Twenty.

3:42

Fourteen Twenty Fifteen, It was clear that

3:44

the United States has come out of

3:47

the Great Recession, the Global Financial crisis

3:49

better than any country in the in

3:51

the word, you know. Just to give

3:54

you a simple example, much in two

3:56

thousand and Eight, the Eurozone economy and

3:58

the Us Economy where. The same size

4:00

or the end of Obamas two terms

4:03

Us was fifty percent larger than the

4:05

Eurozone economy. We are now twice the

4:07

size of the Eurozone economy starting out

4:09

in the same place on Obama ratings

4:11

one more much And that was a

4:13

break from a historical pattern where the

4:15

single best predictor of what how were

4:18

president's approval rating when was what people

4:20

thought of the economy's So that was

4:22

these things that were happening that began

4:24

to make me think there's something going

4:26

on here And as I started to

4:28

research it I thought. To myself we

4:31

are in these in it's incredibly

4:33

revolutionary times. Think about all the

4:35

change that we're experiencing. The Information

4:37

revolution, Globalization, a huge cultural shifts

4:39

in America, When have they been

4:41

similar revolutions of the past? When

4:43

of we had politics appended like

4:45

this in the past and so

4:48

I took me on a journey

4:50

to history to inform the present.

4:52

Yeah, you know it's interesting because

4:54

we think of the Were. I

4:56

think we have to define terms

4:58

here because. You pointedly

5:00

note and your book. The one

5:02

thing that you didn't include here

5:05

is the American Revolution because that's

5:07

not the cut. That's not what

5:09

you're talking about here. Talk about

5:11

how you define revolution for purposes

5:13

of this my birth. That's a

5:15

good to great pointed. Of course

5:17

you know you're always trying to

5:19

define things in a way that

5:21

it's helpful to explain something. What

5:23

I'm using revolution here in the

5:25

in a way, the traditional social

5:27

science way, which is a fundamental

5:29

restructuring. of the socio economic

5:31

political basis of a society you

5:34

know something truly transformational that happens

5:36

rarely since i'm i'm not the

5:38

first person to make this argument

5:40

the american revolution is not a

5:42

revolution is wasn't a social or

5:44

economic revolution it was a war

5:46

of independence after the car the

5:49

colonists were asking for the rights

5:51

that they had as english colonists

5:53

that would usurped by george the

5:55

third in fact have you read

5:57

that their the day It's a

5:59

long list of things that they

6:01

say, we just

6:04

want to get back to what we had.

6:06

So it was in some ways a restoration,

6:08

but more importantly, the social

6:10

economic basis of power in

6:13

America did not change. The South,

6:15

for example, retained the entirely feudal

6:17

slave-owning structure it had. In the

6:19

North, it was essentially

6:21

a land-owning feudal elite that ran

6:24

things. There was an effort during

6:26

the Whiskey Rebellion was the one

6:28

effort of the kind of true

6:30

social revolution who was put down

6:32

pretty brutally. So for

6:35

my purposes, the real revolution that

6:37

takes place in America is basically

6:39

1860 to 1880. The

6:42

combination of the civil war and

6:45

industrialization changes America so much

6:47

that I think somebody who looked

6:49

at America in the 1840s and somebody

6:51

who looked at it in the 1880s and

6:53

there were lots of people alive who chronicled this would

6:55

have said, my God, I feel like I'm in a

6:57

different country. This

7:00

is parenthetical, but we were talking before

7:02

we came out here about

7:04

Lincoln. And we

7:07

all remember him as he

7:10

saved the union. He ended slavery and so

7:12

on. And lost in

7:14

that discussion is the fact that he

7:16

laid the foundation for the

7:19

future. He laid the groundwork

7:21

for the Transcontinental Railroad, land

7:24

grant colleges, the National

7:27

Science Foundation to

7:29

promote technology and scientific

7:31

discovery. Really extraordinary in

7:33

the midst of war, but that's, no, but it's

7:36

an important point because we wouldn't have had, people

7:39

don't realize how decentralized and

7:41

federal the structure of the

7:43

American state was. If Lincoln hadn't

7:45

done what he had done and if

7:47

you hadn't had things like the Interstate

7:49

Commerce Clause, you, we would not have

7:51

been the nation that we became. The

7:54

Civil War partly nationalized the government. It

7:56

created a federal government of one nation

7:58

which didn't exist before. So

8:01

one other term I want you to

8:03

define is the term liberal because, you

8:05

know, it is a commonly used word

8:07

in our politics, but

8:09

you're using it in a more

8:11

classical way. So talk

8:14

about that. You know, in a sense what I'm

8:16

talking about is if you step back and say

8:18

to yourself, what has been the biggest

8:20

change that has taken place politically in the world in

8:22

the last three or 400 years, it

8:25

is the rise of liberal democracy and

8:27

liberalism in politics and economics. And by

8:29

that, I mean the focus

8:32

on the individual, his liberty,

8:34

his freedom, her

8:37

liberty, her freedom. And that is

8:40

the great project of the Enlightenment and

8:42

of the, and in many ways that

8:44

the American Revolution powerfully accelerated of,

8:47

you know, not vesting power in

8:51

kings and courts, in churches,

8:55

in which those entities owned all

8:57

the land or all the economic

8:59

bases of society, but rather in

9:02

individuals. And that liberal project is

9:04

really what I think fundamentally has

9:06

created the modern world. And

9:09

it's created the world of liberal democracy,

9:11

of individual rights, of the rule of

9:13

law, of constitutions. And what

9:15

I worry about, and the reason I

9:18

want this broad definition of liberal, which

9:20

is historically true, and it's still

9:22

how Europeans, for example, use the

9:24

term, sometimes you say neoliberal, is

9:27

that we are currently facing

9:29

challenges all over the

9:31

world to that very basic idea

9:34

of liberalism, of liberal democracy, of

9:36

the legacy of the Enlightenment, because

9:38

there's a whole bunch of people

9:40

who are saying, you know, we

9:43

don't like all these constraints on power. We just

9:45

want to have a strong man, our guy, who's

9:47

going to do whatever he wants. We don't want

9:50

these separations of church and state. I

9:52

mean, we have currently in

9:54

Washington, the Speaker of the House

9:56

of Representatives, who has several times

9:59

on the record said, that he does not believe in

10:01

the separation of church and state. Now

10:03

that is one of the founding elements of

10:06

the United States of constitutions

10:08

all over the world that have

10:10

modeled themselves on the United States.

10:13

So we have a challenge that

10:15

we haven't faced before to this

10:17

much beyond left and right in

10:20

the way we have used it, which was

10:22

basically one side wanted to spend more money,

10:24

the other side wanted to spend less, one

10:26

wanted to tax more. Now

10:28

we face a kind of

10:31

a frontal assault on the very idea of

10:35

liberal democracy, free speech, separations of

10:37

power, separation of church and state.

10:40

It's a much bigger challenge. You

10:43

talk about the resistance

10:46

that has grown and I

10:48

was there, if people weren't paying attention in

10:50

the fall of 2008 at these rallies that

10:54

Sarah Palin was having, but you

10:56

could see the outlines of what was to come

10:58

at those rallies and those protests

11:01

weren't, yes taxes were raised and so

11:03

on, but it was about America,

11:06

what is an American and is

11:09

Obama an American and so on. And that was

11:12

what was generating the

11:14

heat that we saw. But

11:17

what's interesting about your book

11:19

and you go back and

11:21

seize on these historical examples is that

11:23

it's not just about revolutions and the

11:25

revolutions as you say, you're talking about

11:27

our innovations that change

11:30

the nature of how we

11:32

live and then they invite backlash.

11:34

That is the pattern that you

11:37

found in history. So

11:40

talk about that and then let's talk about where we

11:42

are today. No,

11:44

it was late as long as I

11:46

can. It was fascinating to me how

11:48

this pattern persists. So I'll tell you

11:50

the first one, which I think

11:53

is the most unusual. So we really begin this

11:55

whole project with the Dutch, which I know sounds

11:57

like an unusual thing to say, but. It

12:00

starts with the Dutch. I said

12:02

on Colbert, I'm very high on

12:05

the Dutch, which was unintentionally hilarious.

12:10

But of course, of course he looked and said, yeah,

12:12

we all are. But

12:15

they are the first ones to

12:17

really innovate technologically the

12:20

equation of tall ships and navigation of

12:22

water management so they reclaim large parts

12:24

of the land. And they become the

12:27

richest country in Europe and therefore the

12:29

richest country in the world. And

12:31

in doing that, they created a new model,

12:33

which is now the modern model, which is

12:36

a nation defined by

12:38

its capacity and technology

12:40

in industry, in trade,

12:43

in financial innovation, rather than what

12:46

used to be, which is the

12:48

large landed estates, the large farms.

12:50

That was the old agricultural model.

12:52

And the Dutch pioneered this new

12:54

model and they didn't have

12:56

a particularly large army. So it was

12:59

a very, very modern conception of both

13:01

economics and politics. And it

13:03

produces an identity revolution. So

13:05

the first thing you notice is as

13:07

they grow rich, they started to think

13:10

of themselves as Dutch, not

13:12

as part of the Habsburg empire, which was

13:14

they were one province of

13:17

the vast Habsburg empire. And they started

13:19

to think of themselves as different because

13:21

now they're noticing they're different, they're smart,

13:23

they're innovative. They also start to notice

13:25

that they're not Catholic, they're Protestant. And

13:27

as the Protestant Reformation spreads, that becomes

13:29

a core part of their identity and

13:31

they break off from the Habsburg empire.

13:34

And then what begins to happen, and they

13:36

create really the first modern politics, you get

13:38

two parties. And one

13:41

of those parties start saying, this is

13:43

too much change, we're going too fast,

13:45

we're unmoored from the past. Let

13:48

us take you back to when it, let's

13:50

go back to when the Netherlands was

13:52

great again. Let me take

13:54

you back to that world, right? So

13:57

right at the start, you have that

13:59

somewhere. You

14:01

have the nostalgia, which is

14:03

a core part of this, this

14:06

counter revolution, this backlash. And

14:09

what's interesting to me is even then, some

14:11

of it is economic, some of it is a

14:13

lot of change, a lot of farmers being displaced,

14:16

but a lot of it is cultural. A lot of

14:18

it is a sense of, we've

14:21

unmoored ourselves from the traditions

14:23

that made us strong. And

14:25

that pattern you see repeating

14:27

itself, the Industrial Revolution produces

14:29

a huge backlash.

14:32

If you think about it, the biggest

14:34

transformations of the Industrial Revolution take

14:36

place in the second Industrial Revolution,

14:38

really the one that made Chicago

14:40

the great city that it is.

14:43

Between about 1880 and 1920, electricity,

14:47

cars, telephone, railways,

14:50

movies, all that starts to, and

14:53

you think to yourself, that's not just

14:56

electricity alone, just think about how that

14:58

transforms, previously agricultural,

15:01

and you begin to see a huge

15:03

backlash everywhere. You get communism

15:05

from the left, fascism from the

15:07

right, you get world wars, you

15:10

get the collapse of three huge

15:12

multinational empires. So I argue that

15:15

what we're going through now

15:17

is at that scale, because

15:19

we have several of these

15:21

revolutions, economic globalization, information revolution,

15:24

technology and identity all happening at the

15:26

same time. I should point out that

15:29

a few miles down Lake

15:31

Shore Drive, which wasn't there

15:33

then probably, but William Jennings

15:35

Bryan Made his Cross

15:37

of Gold speech, probably the greatest

15:39

populist speech ever made by an

15:42

American politician. an obscure former congressman

15:44

made a speech about the Gold

15:46

Standard on behalf of rural Americans

15:48

and working people who felt impinged

15:50

by the monetary policy. And He

15:53

ended up as the nominee of

15:55

the party, three times six years

15:57

old. By

16:00

the way he represents that you know

16:02

that extraordinary reaction and and backlash to

16:05

to change in those days largely in

16:07

his case economic because you know that

16:09

that was the the big issue of

16:11

the time But don't forget it becomes

16:14

called for very quickly. Remember for all

16:16

of us of why would seem that

16:18

wonderful movie Inherit A When Inherited The

16:20

When way he is defending our the

16:23

teaching of let the you know the

16:25

Bible literally and against evolution and he

16:27

literally that was his last public act.

16:30

Was to test Many died a

16:32

few days later in the Scopes

16:34

trial at Tennessee. Notoriously with the

16:36

cultural was mixed as a great

16:38

are anecdote in the book that

16:40

I'm very proud of. which is

16:42

I found a or academic who

16:44

who'd decoded ah the Wizard of

16:47

Oz which is which he which

16:49

he this academic argues is actually

16:51

a populist our about which I

16:53

think it's brilliantly done. So I'm

16:55

Dorothy of course comes from Kansas

16:57

right? Good midwestern farming states on

16:59

and. She goes and she said

17:01

she travels you know took took to

17:04

find the land of oz o sea

17:06

being the symbol for gold. right?

17:09

Arm in the in the A in

17:11

the book not in the movie her

17:14

Shoes. By the way our silver not

17:16

not not read silver being the the

17:18

metal that the populace wanted because that

17:21

would have allowed for inflation said she

17:23

meets along the way the of the

17:25

scarecrow who represents the farmers who are

17:28

too scared to do anything, the tin

17:30

man who is a worker who has

17:32

no heart. Dell, Dell and

17:34

the Lion either to with the Way

17:36

which is that the Wicked Witch of

17:39

the West Indies. The costume the meet

17:41

some the popular say that and the

17:43

lion is William Jennings Bryan who had

17:45

a great roar but couldn't actually deliver

17:47

anything. says.

17:54

So let's talk about where. We.

17:56

are now because it's it's sub

17:59

your book It's not called the age

18:01

of revolution, it's called the age of

18:03

revolutions. And you mentioned this earlier. There

18:06

are a lot of things going on at once

18:08

and I'm not sure while they're maybe precedent in

18:10

how people react to them.

18:12

It feels as if, largely

18:15

because of technology, that

18:18

this is a more involved kind

18:20

of challenge that's happening on a

18:22

whole number of

18:24

different levels. So you're absolutely

18:27

right. The technology piece of it alone,

18:29

if you just think about what has happened in

18:31

the, it's hard for us to realize that we

18:34

have lived through something so dramatic,

18:36

but we have. Think about what

18:38

the world looked like before software.

18:41

You know, before, basically we

18:43

still lived in a world of atoms

18:45

where things moved mechanically. And

18:47

we've created this entire digital economy

18:49

where the only thing that matters

18:52

is the software that controls it. Think about

18:54

the car. The car was

18:56

an actual machine that needed oil and

18:58

filter and now it's software on wheels.

19:02

And that is kind of a

19:04

metaphor for the transformation that's taken place

19:06

and the displacement

19:09

and the devaluing of

19:11

so many professions and

19:13

industries that were once

19:15

incredibly important. But that's just

19:17

one piece of it. Think about

19:20

globalization. In the

19:22

last 30 years, we have seen about

19:24

3 billion people join

19:26

the open global trading economy

19:29

because India, China, the wall of

19:31

Latin America, large parts of Africa.

19:34

Now, if you go back in the 50s and 60s and say, you

19:37

know, that was after World War II, the

19:39

expansion of globalization, yeah, you know, Japan came

19:42

online and that's, you know, 60

19:44

million people made in South Korea comes online

19:46

because of course the communist world is, you

19:49

know, is deliberately keeping itself out of that

19:51

world. Singapore, Hong

19:53

Kong, and then in the 1980s and

19:55

90s, you start to

19:58

get this seismic shift where these. or

20:00

you know, much of

20:02

the world starts to participate in

20:05

the same system. Or

20:07

then take the identity revolution, and

20:09

this is the one I think we don't think about enough. For all

20:12

of human history, there's some tribe has been on top

20:15

and some tribe has been on the bottom, and one

20:17

oppressed the other, and that's pretty normal. But

20:19

in all of human history that we know of,

20:22

one group was always second class women.

20:26

And for many, many, most

20:28

societies in the world, there were the property of

20:30

men, just a few hundred years ago. And

20:33

then in the last 40 years,

20:35

I would argue, we fundamentally, and

20:38

thank God, changed that. We're

20:40

not there yet, but you know, it's a huge,

20:42

huge shift that's taking place. But

20:45

think about how disruptive that is in

20:47

historical terms, right? You've taken a basic

20:49

unit of society, the family, and we've

20:51

altered the structure of power within it.

20:53

And you take all these three things

20:55

together, and you say to yourself, does

20:57

that leave some people feeling disoriented,

21:00

dislocated, feeling their world is upended?

21:02

Yeah, and I mean, if you

21:04

just think about the issue

21:06

of women, it's not an

21:08

accident in my view that

21:10

all the religious reactionary movements

21:13

of our time, from Islamic

21:15

fundamentalism to Christian nationalism to

21:17

the ultra-orthodox and Haredi in

21:20

Israel, they all want to

21:22

return to very traditional roles for

21:24

women. You know, that is a common

21:26

theme in all these reactions.

21:30

We're going to take a short break, and we'll be right

21:32

back with more of the Axe Fies. And

21:50

now, the Queen Sleep Number C4-1. JD

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22:41

now, back to the show. You

22:48

didn't mention the key to globalization

22:50

is trade. We're here in the

22:53

Midwest. We've seen

22:55

a lot, particularly in the 80s and 90s,

22:58

a lot of communities that were devastated

23:01

because plants moved,

23:03

jobs were lost. Oftentimes those

23:05

plants were the center of

23:07

the town. So

23:12

that was dislocating. You

23:14

mentioned the complicated dynamic of women

23:16

entering the workforce. You saw a

23:19

lot of men leaving the workforce.

23:22

That was dislocating. And another

23:24

factor, we'll

23:26

talk about that because you and I, I mean, I

23:30

am not a Luddite. I'm wearing my

23:32

Apple watch. I've got a

23:34

cell phone in my pocket. I'm

23:36

completely enlisted, okay? Though you

23:39

cite the dislocation and you're clearly empathetic to

23:41

the people who are going through it.

23:44

You are a champion of trade,

23:46

of technology, of openness. You

23:49

say the big battle is actually between

23:52

people who want to open up and people who want

23:54

to close. But it

23:56

is understandable if

23:58

your community was decimated

24:01

if your job was lost,

24:04

that you would be resentful. And

24:07

there was a lot of chatter, as

24:10

you wrote about this, during the time in

24:12

which trade really claimed,

24:14

Jobs Solo, as you point out,

24:16

automation, claimed a lot more about,

24:18

we're gonna retrain you. We're

24:20

gonna find you a job, and

24:23

you're gonna be part of this modern economy. And

24:25

it was like, well, where's this job? And

24:28

what job is it? And people who've been

24:31

doing the same kinds of work

24:33

for generations. That is

24:35

a legitimate source of

24:38

pain and loss that

24:40

it strikes me that we've

24:42

been insufficient, that we were insufficiently

24:44

sensitive to. You know, I

24:47

think you're absolutely right, David, and I think we're

24:49

still, we still haven't figured this out.

24:51

So it's a big subject,

24:53

so bear with me. The first thing to say is, the

24:56

reason I'm for these things is, first of

24:58

all, you can't un-invent technology. Right, I mean,

25:00

think about something like AI now. What are

25:02

we gonna do? Put it back in a

25:04

box, you know, put the genie, you

25:07

can't do that, somebody else will do it. More

25:09

importantly, you also do need to move forward. You

25:11

have to, you want your country to be at

25:14

the cutting edge. You want it to be taking

25:16

advantage of all the, you know,

25:19

the things that can happen if you are moving.

25:22

The end of the day, in order to

25:24

solve any problem, you need resources. And the

25:27

way you generate resources is through growth. Think

25:29

about climate change. The countries that are able

25:31

to do something about climate change are the

25:33

countries that are generating resources so that they

25:36

can do something about it. Four countries don't

25:38

have that off. Let me just interrupt you

25:40

for a second, because climate change is a

25:42

good example. I feel as

25:45

strongly about as anywhere, I suspect there's a

25:47

big consensus in this room about the need

25:49

to do more on

25:51

climate change. But I know that

25:53

there are people out there who have made

25:56

A living all their lives,

25:58

extracting energy. From

26:00

the ground and in related

26:02

industries and probably generations before

26:04

them. And so when we

26:06

say. Climate is an

26:08

existential crisis. They're thinking of

26:11

the existential crisis of losing

26:13

a good middle class. John:

26:15

how do we create dialogue?

26:17

And more than dialogue, what

26:19

are we do? Get about

26:21

thirty? It's the perfect example

26:23

of this larger point which

26:25

has said so Ideally what

26:27

you want to do is

26:29

to embrace openness, change, dynamism,

26:32

And. Create the resources that will allow

26:34

you to solve some of these

26:36

problems. Now. We did do

26:38

that in large part. So. The

26:40

simplest way I can put him, I

26:42

can make this point: use what country

26:44

would you have like the United States

26:46

to trade places with over the last

26:48

thirty or forty years? As I point

26:50

out, the we started with the Eurozone

26:52

economy in two thousand and eight, same

26:54

size or twice as large. Now okay,

26:57

If Great Britain would join the

26:59

United States as the Fifty First

27:01

State and would be a Fifty

27:03

First for a state. In. The

27:05

Union. Below Mississippi

27:07

in the average income of people

27:09

white. So we have managed to

27:12

generate extraordinary growth. Out of this

27:14

the problem that we have had

27:16

his we have not. A

27:18

We have not spent nearly enough.

27:21

To. Try and question people retrained people to

27:23

do the things that we need to

27:25

do. Your your your boss Obama wants

27:28

give a wonderful speech way said we

27:30

all know trade benefits Everyone we know

27:32

it raises the it raises the whole

27:34

country and we always say but it

27:36

has bad distribution effect. Some communities get

27:38

devastated and we said therefore we have

27:40

to spend money on those people. And

27:43

we never do. And. we week

27:45

and we keep moving on think a know

27:47

because when the time comes to do to

27:49

benefit from the prayed we're all happy to

27:51

do it when the time comes to write

27:53

the checks were not look of you think

27:55

about the last thirty or forty years the

27:57

united states has generated crazy amount of resource

28:00

What have been the major expenditures the

28:02

United States has done? If

28:04

you want to start with 1980, what you

28:07

have is three massive

28:09

Republican tax cuts, the

28:11

Reagan tax cut, the Bush tax cut, and

28:13

the Trump tax cut, and then

28:15

two enormous

28:17

wars, the Afghanistan

28:19

and Iraq. And if you look at the

28:21

pile of debt that, you know, that's about

28:24

50% of it. It's

28:26

just those three things that I, you know, four things

28:28

that I mentioned. And imagine

28:30

if those resources had been devoted to

28:32

the kind of things that we all

28:34

can tell me. I remember,

28:36

I don't know if it's meant to be off the record, but when Trump

28:39

was president, because she lived

28:41

in New York and because she's a nice

28:43

human being, a decent human being, Ivanka Trump

28:46

and I had known each other a little.

28:48

And she called me one day to say,

28:50

I'm taking over the issue of retraining, job

28:52

retraining, apprenticeships and things like that. And

28:55

I'd love your thoughts on it. So I

28:57

said to her, look, here's the fundamental thing you've got to

28:59

look at. Go and look at

29:01

the Germans. They are the ones who are able to

29:03

do this better than anybody else. Please

29:07

take a look and add up

29:09

how much the German government spends per

29:11

person on retraining. It is 20 times

29:14

what we spent. So when

29:16

you're trying to figure out what is

29:18

the clever German model, like there's a

29:20

simple answer there. They spend a whole

29:23

lot of money on that and we

29:25

don't. You know, so we never committed

29:27

ourselves in that way. And I

29:29

think that there are other issues. You know,

29:31

I do think that when communities go down,

29:33

as you know, I write in the book,

29:36

it's not just an economic issue. You lose

29:38

your life because you lose the bowling league

29:40

that was part of the plan. You lose

29:43

the hardware store because now Home Depot has

29:45

taken it over. You lose the movie theater

29:47

because now Netflix has killed it. You lose

29:49

the bookshop because Amazon has taken

29:51

it away. So you lose a life

29:54

and maybe you're making about as much money as you

29:56

were and the data does show that many of these

29:58

Places, people. Making about as much as

30:01

much money as they work. But. You

30:03

lose something and he lose the community.

30:05

And. So that's what I mean when I

30:07

say we haven't thought much more ambitiously about

30:09

this because does the money piece of it.

30:12

But there's also, what do you do. At

30:14

this is why I'm not sure that

30:16

like universal basic income is going to

30:18

work because. Particularly. For

30:21

men. So. Much of their

30:23

sense of status and dignity and comes from the

30:25

idea that you work and you get down and

30:27

I am et al does that. You have value

30:29

in the society right and big. Don't sit at

30:31

home and will mail you a check. I'm

30:34

not, so you know, so I think you're

30:36

absolutely right. Weird, but you know, nice. You

30:38

know I I grapple with this is a

30:40

conclusion guess but I don't have a satisfactory

30:42

answer. But but I do think there's something

30:44

around the idea of communities. That. That

30:46

that you know if you can keep and

30:49

to act as a sense of community and

30:51

and as and something about that that I

30:53

think make you know man as a social

30:55

animal, human beings of social. they want that

30:57

and when they lose that I think that

31:00

that sense of loneliness and of the Surgeon

31:02

General says we have an epidemic of loneliness

31:04

in this country. I do think it's related

31:06

to that There we we should point out

31:09

because I want to talk more about loneliness.

31:11

I want to talk more about technology. But

31:13

you also talk about the impact of out

31:15

of the. Long wars, the impacts of

31:18

the financial crisis in two thousand

31:20

and eight and which many people

31:22

felt like was three got bailed

31:24

out and and they ended up

31:26

getting in distress and we went

31:28

through a pandemic that you Euro.

31:30

Book. About that and I'm not sure

31:33

we have recovered from that. To be

31:35

honest we have. We have Ptsd so

31:37

there's a lot of alienation out there.

31:40

Talk about the impact of communications technologies.

31:42

When social media came about. when the

31:44

Internet came about, we celebrated that this

31:47

was gonna connect the world that we

31:49

were going to be. You know we

31:51

were going to find community in there

31:53

and in some ways we have. but

31:56

as you point out but in other

31:58

ways it has become. A

32:00

dramatically isolating him a phenomena and so

32:02

it as to that sense of loneliness

32:05

indeed detachment that you speaker either. So

32:07

I think it's important we sometimes org

32:09

with when we'd look at proud of

32:11

Technology we we focus on the problems

32:14

which are real but we forget what

32:16

we sort of pocket as it we're

32:18

there. games right? You have your I

32:20

phoned in your pocket because you can

32:23

imagine at this point living life without

32:25

what is in effect a supercomputer that

32:27

you have in your pockets in a

32:29

it's it's. Crazy to think about this

32:31

but wait, be unaware on most of

32:34

you must have some version of I

32:36

for I phones the Eleven Twelve Thirteen

32:38

The I phone Ten. Had.

32:40

More computing power, then the entire space

32:42

program that took a human beings to

32:45

the moon and back times ten. It's

32:47

ten times what can be read by

32:49

in your pocket than the entire last

32:52

operation. Yeah, so we have. And and

32:54

it just wouldn't say one thing about

32:56

this. in two thousand and eight. January.

32:59

Two thousand and a maybe two thousand

33:02

and seven it must be two thousand

33:04

and seven Rock Obama who are went

33:06

to Silicon Valley and he met with

33:08

Steve Jobs and he came back and

33:11

he said and he showed me the

33:13

prototype of a product they're gonna roll

33:15

out and june and it's gonna be

33:17

the biggest saying. Ever. And

33:19

he served described what he saw and it

33:22

was the as it was the I phone.

33:24

He also warned us that none of us

33:26

could buy Apple stock because we don't want

33:28

to jail. Now

33:31

that he has told us about

33:33

it but I I I don't

33:35

even. I think even he didn't

33:38

realize just how revolutionary that one

33:40

status ago every ever smoke because

33:42

what gates of what one would

33:45

jobs understood bomb which is Iraq

33:47

again we're just really brilliant. Psychological

33:50

Insight or is it was human

33:52

beings wanted was their own personal

33:54

computer that was out there, beck

33:56

and call always in their pocket.

33:58

Your think about. The crazy thing

34:01

about the the phone. Is that

34:03

we call it a phone? but we've

34:05

rarely used to make phone calls threat

34:07

it's it's really a supercomputer in your

34:09

pocket that allows you to so, but

34:11

this huge benefits from that and as

34:13

benefits from terms of you have access

34:15

to all the knowledge of the one

34:17

all the time. All that, but there's

34:19

also community. Think about below the. The.

34:21

Gay kid who's growing up in,

34:23

you know, in rural Alabama or

34:26

in you know, the woman in

34:28

Afghanistan who you know the connection

34:30

to the outside world of your

34:32

own community is not one that's

34:34

hospitable. The ability for to see

34:36

begun, dream big and can us

34:38

visa you know it's it's had

34:40

a huge impact on unlocking human

34:42

potential. but. I. Think you're

34:44

right that when you look at social

34:46

media. What? Has happened

34:48

is. That. The social media

34:51

companies have figured out. That

34:53

the. Way they can make the most

34:55

money. Is by keeping you

34:57

the most engaged and the most

34:59

intensely engaged. And unfortunately turns out

35:01

that the way to keep you

35:04

most engaged is to create a

35:06

kind of tribalism way you think

35:08

of your tribe, you are opposed

35:10

to the other tribe, you get

35:12

real or you're only see stuff

35:14

that reinforces it. You know to

35:16

put it simply say, it generates

35:18

more intense interaction, is profitable deaths

35:21

and and I did. I have

35:23

to confess, I'm I'm I'm surprised

35:25

by this because. It doesn't work. He

35:27

doesn't move me in the same way I,

35:29

I, I, I been. I'm sort of a

35:31

sunny optimists my nature and I don't. I

35:34

don't do that. but. It. Particularly

35:36

if you're lonely. particularly if you have

35:38

you know things that things are hard.

35:40

The idea that you can find other

35:43

people with whom you can vent the

35:45

the this is something very powerful in

35:47

the and the anonymity of social media.

35:50

I. Think allows this I a lotta times as either

35:52

of you that the same experience I that. I've.

35:54

Written a lot of stuff. I could cause

35:57

people to dislike me for some the things

35:59

I've written. Some the people dislike me because

36:01

who I am how I look but you

36:03

know my my name. I've.

36:05

Gone through the disc this country.

36:08

They're giving speeches, speeches all a

36:10

tough. I have maybe twice had

36:12

an unpleasant encounter in person with

36:14

somebody who was nasty to me

36:16

to my face. I that.

36:19

Tens of thousands of nasty to

36:21

each of you. know that people

36:24

feel somehow a licensed in that

36:26

an anonymous, a pseudonymous environment, or

36:28

even if that they namely the

36:31

sitting in their basement suite you

36:33

know something which encourages bent and

36:35

spleen And and it's it's very

36:38

sad Gun And when I did

36:40

also encourages something else which is

36:42

division Yeah and it's speech to

36:45

the back last portion of your

36:47

work here that it has turbo.

36:49

Charged a sense of of them

36:51

of backlash because we are driven

36:54

into our silos where where sometimes

36:56

informed about but always affirmed and

36:58

everybody outside the silo is not

37:00

so someone was a different point

37:03

of view or different background but

37:05

alien. Ah, And it

37:07

has had an impact on our

37:10

politics or politics now. Mirrors that

37:12

wires Marjorie Taylor Green, who has

37:14

very little caloric content. Why? Why

37:17

As sheath? Why I see one

37:19

of the chief fundraisers in the

37:21

Republican party? Because she is the

37:24

personification of the social media model.

37:26

She just goes after outrage and

37:28

people send her money. So one

37:31

of the things, and hundred sq.

37:33

That's one thing that worries me

37:35

is about democracy. Is

37:37

that we've designed them to move

37:40

slowly when we are divided. Is

37:42

change. Is coming at us more

37:45

and more rapidly because of technology. People

37:47

are more anxious and government is moving

37:49

more slowly. It feels because we're divided

37:52

and it seems like a caustic kind

37:54

of mismatched that gives the Chinese and

37:56

others who are are you we met.

37:59

Democracy is spent In is an agile

38:01

enough to deal with today's problems, but

38:03

they're not doing that great right now

38:06

either. Give them a talking points, I

38:08

just worry the technology is cheering so

38:10

quickly we can get our arms around.

38:13

all the impacts on. Yeah.

38:15

You know, I think that this

38:17

isn't a I don't know if

38:19

this is a flaw, but it

38:21

does seem as though the American

38:23

structure of constitutional government, the way

38:25

our system works, has interacted very

38:27

badly with information technology. We. You

38:29

know and social media because what it's

38:32

done is is created This and. You

38:34

know extraordinary silo ization which then

38:36

produces intense tribal a extremist views

38:39

and those views than as you

38:41

say dominate the to great political

38:43

parties. Particularly one has to say

38:45

on the republican side you know

38:47

where if you know today it's

38:49

the A Oh Sees and the

38:51

and the most retailer greens dominate

38:53

these. a freshman congressman who normally

38:55

would have no power and actually

38:58

have enormous power because they can

39:00

control fundraising, the agenda and all

39:02

of that is because of this.

39:04

Zebras. But in my opinion, bad enough that

39:06

you have now a system of primaries where

39:09

you have only the most extreme people voting

39:11

in the in the in they are you

39:13

know for the candidates. but now you have

39:15

Twitter which is the most extreme of the

39:17

most extreme you know. So you've gone down

39:19

to probably why the one percent of the

39:21

parties controlling the agenda. You don't

39:23

see that? Must ask that You call

39:25

it excesses. Of.

39:29

I you don't see so much of that

39:31

in Europe. you certainly see the rise of

39:33

populism all over your. By the way that

39:35

this this this it's been again When you

39:38

think that Americans run an American and that's

39:40

one of the reasons why Say if we

39:42

had thought allow workers would we be that

39:45

we have no of populism look at France

39:47

France goggles, it's workers more than any Once

39:49

if we had maintain manufacturing of Germany has

39:51

meant a of manufacturing. It now has a

39:54

if if if you know a far right

39:56

party that is draws the in a route

39:58

so barrels to the nazi bit. Sweden

40:00

has some a little lowest levels of

40:02

inequality in the world, and the second

40:04

largest party in Sweden is now an

40:06

avowedly fascist party that traces its roots

40:09

to the twenties. We're

40:11

going to take a short break and will be

40:14

right back with more the experts. Say

40:22

episode. A Strategy wise you, I

40:24

pass today. Ninety percent of the

40:26

fortune Five hundred are accelerating human

40:28

achievement simply with you. I passed

40:30

the world's number one, a I

40:32

powered business automation platform. You I

40:34

pass the Foundation of Innovation. You

40:39

know it can be hard to see

40:41

the challenges that people we work with

40:44

everyday are going through invisible struggles like

40:46

stress and burnouts, care, getting for a

40:48

loved one, or being misunderstood. But inside

40:51

awareness and empathy will help us better

40:53

see the issues they're dealing with and

40:55

that can make us and our company

40:58

healthier to. I'm Holly Robinson P. Join

41:00

us on the visibility Get a New

41:02

for a Cat presented by Sigma Health

41:04

Care download it. Wherever you get your

41:07

panties. And

41:13

now back to the so. One

41:20

thing that you don't have in Europe

41:22

is this intense. You know, kind

41:24

of tribalism and partisanship with they won't

41:27

work with one another there. You know

41:29

that's just the sense of politics as

41:31

war. Mean, look at the Republicans, now

41:33

they're They're doubling as if they have

41:36

a two thirds majority in the house

41:38

of representatives when they have a majority

41:40

one and one right, right lights. It's

41:42

sort of expand on, and that's about

41:44

the idea that it's almost evil. To

41:47

collaborate with the democrats are at

41:49

the and so with that spirit

41:51

does seem to come from this

41:53

constitutional throw this electoral system we

41:55

have where we have these two

41:57

parties with the be primaries. Where's

42:00

social media so influences the outcomes of

42:02

the primary? Somebody pointed this out to

42:04

me that if you look at people

42:07

like a was see and Marjorie telegram

42:09

actually it's five to seven percent of

42:11

the voting public that elected them. You

42:14

know, because them get the contest of

42:16

time, read them and then it's a

42:18

safe seats. So actually it's a very

42:21

small. You know it? We will. We

42:23

are actually not nearly that polarized or

42:25

partisan, but our system magnifies it and

42:28

the technology accelerates the i always feel.

42:30

When people raise them as

42:32

bookends, I feel like I

42:34

don't agree with a O

42:36

Sea on everything, but. It.

42:39

There's a difference between advocating

42:41

for universal healthcare and. Suggesting.

42:44

That. Jewish. Space lasers are

42:46

responsible for forest fire as in

42:49

an hour. I

42:52

realized I think that soon but I

42:54

think that's true But what I think

42:56

a similar and of and of course

42:59

and onion as you know in the

43:01

book that the that the republican party

43:03

has gone crazy. Let's let's stipulate that

43:06

Ah but but with similar is the

43:08

structure of politics that allows area right

43:10

a freshman congressman narrowly elected in a

43:13

primary and ones to become so important.

43:15

Because social media elevates that puts him

43:17

in the old as you would have

43:19

that to. Spent twenty years and go

43:21

on committees and know something about these

43:24

subjects and you know, bring Jobs home

43:26

To dismiss she kills the Amazon deal

43:28

in New York which was going to

43:30

bring twenty five thousand of so if

43:32

forty thousand jobs to New York because

43:34

it it worked better As a tribune

43:37

of the Left to say, I oppose

43:39

big corporations than to actually bring jobs

43:41

into your own. The Smith. That's.

43:43

It then have been version of

43:45

what democratic politics is meant to

43:47

boil, talk about and version you

43:50

write that there are there is

43:52

a historical one. One effect of

43:54

these revolutionary times as at parties

43:56

sometimes morph into. Something else

43:58

that they are. They. The name

44:00

and that certainly happening now.

44:02

Civic: The composition of the

44:05

democratic electorate is change. The

44:07

composition of the republican electorate

44:09

is change. It's more of

44:11

a predominantly white, but not

44:13

exclusively working class party. It,

44:15

as suburbanites tend to be.

44:18

More and more. Leaning toward

44:20

Democrats and why is that?

44:23

Have. A

44:25

Fundamental. Economics as the primary

44:27

determinant of your political identity to these

44:29

social issues and cultural issues. to have

44:31

you looked in the middle of the

44:34

twentieth century, when by the way, you

44:36

know most people don't. We. Don't

44:38

realize, but America was still, you know

44:40

is still on up and coming country.

44:42

Per capita gdp adjusted for inflation in

44:45

America in nineteen fifty was fifteen thousand.

44:47

He knows he looked at the average

44:49

home size of the old i kind

44:51

of thing, though it's still modest and

44:53

so the big struggle was about economics

44:56

and basically the simplest way to predict

44:58

you're voting patterns were did you work

45:00

at a blue collar job? With

45:03

there was a did you work with your hands and

45:05

did you make less than the median income you voted

45:07

left. The. Other side: white collar

45:09

more than the median income you voted

45:11

right and this issue in Europe as

45:13

well. What? Happened in

45:15

by the seventies and eighties is

45:18

you created a mass middle class?

45:20

Those economic issues became less pressing

45:22

and cultural issues became more what

45:24

social scientists call. Postmaterialistic.

45:27

Values you identity as a woman, your

45:29

identity as a bit the African American

45:31

as a Hispanic as somebody who is

45:33

Jewish or somebody who's gay, somebody who's

45:35

a lesbian. All these identities become more

45:38

and more important and today as you

45:40

know, the simplest way to predict where

45:42

somebody is it got me is going

45:44

to vote is to look at entirely

45:46

different market. Some you can either look

45:48

at their views on the three g's

45:50

god guns and gays or or you

45:52

can look at similarly or the other

45:55

guys are educator education level. Their rural

45:57

urban. You know it's it's it's these.

46:00

Cruel dynamics that have with that player

46:02

a much larger role and I think

46:04

it adds to the partisanship David Because

46:06

in the old days you know in

46:09

economics you can split the difference. In

46:11

a year you wanted to spend a

46:13

hundred billion dollars I don't want to

46:15

spend anything with as a number in

46:18

between. Those families split the difference. When.

46:20

You're talking about gay rights When

46:22

you're talking about abortion when you're

46:24

talking about is my America being

46:26

being destroyed because you're having all

46:28

these people come in from different

46:30

parts of the world. You know

46:32

these are these a she's of

46:34

identity and they feel existential to

46:36

people and I think that's what

46:38

makes it harder to compromise you

46:40

write about and used mentioned earlier

46:42

the the this other element which

46:44

is the element of respect I

46:46

was taught me earlier in a

46:48

we had a pandemic and. There

46:51

are a lot of value in

46:53

Americans who do jobs that we

46:55

don't pay attention to. Their invisible to

46:57

us who suddenly became essential. are you

46:59

know, because they do things that keep

47:02

the country moving and they let

47:04

us eat and do the basic things

47:06

that we want to do and we

47:08

lionize them for of a few months

47:11

and then when the pandemic ended they

47:13

sort of receded and you know I?

47:15

This is my critique of the Democratic

47:18

Party and which I've been involved

47:20

with. A and stand

47:22

still and still. Ammo

47:25

have aligned with but I

47:27

do think as. The. Democrat

47:29

Party has become a sort of

47:31

cosmopolitan. Educated.

47:35

Forbidden. Party that it

47:37

still maintains it's commitment

47:40

to economic. Fairness for

47:42

people in rural areas and the

47:44

poor and science. But it's communicates

47:46

a message that is sort of:

47:48

We're going to help you become

47:51

more like us and we're going

47:53

to help you become more like

47:55

us. An implicit in that is

47:57

there is something less if you

47:59

were. The your hands you work

48:01

with your back, you didn't your

48:03

of a college degree and so

48:05

on. and I think that is

48:07

part of the alienation it that

48:10

a drive some of this trump

48:12

is and let me ask you

48:14

about the strong men. Because

48:16

you just described earlier, all of this

48:18

is assaulting our senses. There is a

48:21

sense that things are kind of out

48:23

of control in that environment. The.

48:25

Strong Man becomes. More. Appealing.

48:28

A strong man becomes more appealing for

48:31

two reasons. One because you know to

48:33

to take your only a car comments

48:35

you really have created these almost two

48:38

worlds, right? One, I mean it is

48:40

really is to America's one more urban,

48:42

more educated, more multicultural, the other more

48:45

rural, more christian, more white, less educated

48:47

and the two sides of look at

48:49

each other with great suspicion and particularly

48:52

people didn't have the rural less educated

48:54

feel look down on as you say.

48:56

And so they search for Tribune and.

48:59

What They and they feel like the system

49:01

isn't working because the system is somehow screwing

49:03

them, the system is leaving them and this

49:06

you know is this lesser than states So

49:08

why not blow the whole thing up And

49:10

the and you're absolutely right. the two thousand

49:12

and eight financial crisis was you know Steve

49:14

Bannon said to me once this is the

49:17

without that crisis you would not have. A

49:20

right wing populism and Trump in

49:22

America because that made a whole.

49:25

Of goods. As group of people feel the

49:27

system in a we were told that

49:29

these guys are the smartest guys in the

49:32

room. The marriage of a meritocracy their the

49:34

they've created this amazing gonna meet don't that

49:36

was a House of Cards It all

49:38

collapsed and then they bail themselves out. But.

49:41

When we lose our jobs, nobody bail us out

49:43

right now. So that feeling of the funded I

49:45

said let's run out. Get a guy with a

49:47

gold toilet seat at the New York. City

49:50

does the cars because he's an outsider

49:53

as he is and read his defiant

49:55

and he to is is willing to

49:57

burn the house don't I don't. actually.

50:01

But Trump you know he a golden

50:03

cities a bad businessmen but he's a

50:05

good salesman via the understands what those

50:08

areas or whatever. A genius right? He

50:10

understands what they want to hear. He

50:12

you know he really. if you leave

50:14

you listen to him at those that

50:16

are those are of rallies. He understands

50:18

how to touch people on the thing

50:20

they care about and sometimes it's you

50:23

know he's appealing to their worst angels.

50:25

Not the best angels but but he's

50:27

probably a family with a lower fareed

50:29

is something very genuine. Donald.

50:31

Trump. His father told them. That.

50:33

You have to be a killer or a loser thing.

50:36

They're only with or a want. there's

50:38

only one or the other. New gotta

50:40

be a killer. And the subtext was

50:42

the world as the Hunger Games that

50:45

One Hundred Games was around them. But

50:47

the strong take what they want, the

50:49

week fall away, and people who are

50:51

abide by rules and laws and norms

50:53

and institute and respect institutions are suckers.

50:55

And that's when he. En

50:58

masse, dangerous minds, a trash tragedy.

51:00

but Trump and America for me

51:02

is not. I think I agree

51:04

with you every. Something

51:08

like five to forty percent of the

51:10

public seems to support him and agree

51:12

with that gives or that he thinks

51:14

the election was rigged. It's that. Eighty

51:17

five to ninety million Americans agree with him.

51:20

So. That goes to the ability to

51:22

brand. And he will brand these trials

51:24

that way. Each he has. Whatever you

51:26

think about Donald Trump, one should not

51:29

underestimate his exile. He is very, very

51:31

good at that. The think about what

51:33

he'll do with the trials he'll say.

51:35

You guys think that a bunch of

51:38

over educated fancy liberals who live in

51:40

cities have rig the system against you.

51:42

Look at what a bunch of over

51:44

educated fancy lawyers in cities are doing

51:46

by putting you know by trying to

51:49

take me off. The Table with all

51:51

these cleverly even legal maneuvers that you

51:53

don't understand. I have very mixed feelings

51:56

about these trials because I think they

51:58

feed the basic narrative that. No,

52:00

there's a bunch of of of of

52:02

this. This is what the murder could

52:04

to see the it takes the guys

52:06

it doesn't like a with some fancy

52:08

legal maneuvers is akin to let Americans

52:11

shoes down. Now the closing words of

52:13

your book. Ah, are I

52:15

think worth sharing because I know

52:17

only people. In

52:19

despair here ass, you throw

52:22

out a challenge. But implicit

52:24

in the challenge is hope.

52:27

It is magisterial television shows Civilization

52:29

The great art historian Kenneth Black

52:31

Pass why a civilization like Rome

52:33

that was once dominant could collapse

52:35

into the barbarism of the Dark

52:37

Ages. He concluded that beyond the

52:39

material causes, there was a mental

52:41

one. It is a lack of

52:43

confidence more than anything else that kills a

52:45

civilization. We. Can destroy ourselves

52:47

by cynicism and disillusion just

52:50

as effectively as my bombs.

52:52

Modern. Civilization has given ordinary

52:54

people greatest freedom, wealth, and

52:56

dignity than any before. It.

52:59

It. Has empowered billions of people in all

53:01

kinds of ways. If. It collapses

53:03

and the new dark Ages arrive.

53:05

It will be because in our

53:07

myopia or internecine squabbles and are petty

53:10

rivalries, we lost sight of the

53:12

fact that we are as to

53:14

the greatest tradition and history. One.

53:16

That has liberated the human mind and spirit.

53:18

The. Created the modern world. And

53:21

who's greatest achievements are yet to come? At

53:23

a so I mean I would. I

53:30

would add to that you know, just

53:33

in the sense of thinking about America,

53:35

particularly we're doing, we're trying to do

53:37

something very hard in America we're trying

53:39

to create, you know, kind of a

53:42

really a universal nation. A nation where

53:44

people from all over the you know

53:46

from from whatever that background whatever their

53:48

gender, whatever their skin color seal welcome

53:51

feel productive feel that they are equal

53:53

citizens and not just are equal legally

53:55

but truly equaled. You know they don't

53:58

have to hide in the shadows. If

54:00

they're gay they don't have to have you know

54:02

be seconds last if there if their skin color

54:04

is is a different. That is a

54:07

hard sell his but we're doing it. And.

54:09

We're doing it in the context of an

54:11

incredibly dynamic economy that is trying to produce

54:13

enough resources that we can take care of

54:15

everyone. The I don't think we should give

54:17

up on this because it's in the it's

54:19

an extraordinary journey. It's an extraordinary agenda at

54:22

adventure. I go to other countries I tell

54:24

you know what else is doing it as

54:26

well as we. I mean you go to.

54:28

you go to places like Europe and you

54:30

do not see women and the forefront of

54:32

business the way you do. You know you

54:34

would You mean you look at the tech

54:36

Ceos and they all have on. You know

54:39

for. Most Americans unpronounceable names and these

54:41

are the most powerful people in the

54:43

country. Rights and they all you know.

54:45

Indian Americans? Chinese Americans like. that's America

54:48

at it's best. we have to figure

54:50

out how to deal with. The.

54:52

Places that get left behind, the people that

54:54

get left behind. But we're the richest country

54:56

in the history of the world. and we

54:58

are the three country in the history of

55:00

the woods. Surely that's and and that you

55:03

know that's a challenge we can undertake. And

55:05

and you know instead of kind of collapsing

55:07

into a cynicism the says this whole thing

55:09

is not working. Let's burn it all down.

55:11

Else. Well, I've always said that

55:13

democracy is an ongoing battle between cynicism

55:16

and hope, and I urge all of

55:18

you to engage in the politics of

55:20

hope. And I also urge you to

55:22

read for each book because it's really

55:24

essential reading Fareed Zakaria Census. Think

55:29

this and listening to The Exiles right

55:31

here by the institute. Of Politics at

55:34

the University of Chicago and

55:36

Cnn Audio the executive producers.

55:38

The cell is Miriam Center in

55:40

embarrass the cell. Is also produced

55:43

by Sarah Lee in Barry Sad

55:45

Sucks and Hannah Grace Mcdonalds and

55:47

Special Thanks. To. Our partners at

55:49

Cnn including seems. Like Tyson Healy

55:51

Thomas for more programming for my

55:53

of the visit politics that you

55:56

see father that Edu.