0:06

And now from the Institute of Politics

0:08

at the University of Chicago in CNN

0:10

Audio, the Axwiles, with

0:13

your host, David Axelrod. You

0:16

know, lots of folks have two jobs, but none

0:19

quite like Raphael Warnock's. On

0:21

most weekdays, he's patrolling the halls

0:23

of Congress as the senior senator

0:25

from the state of Georgia, but

0:27

he's also the senior pastor of

0:29

the storied Ebenezer Baptist Church in

0:31

Atlanta preaching from the same pulpit

0:34

that his idol, his North

0:36

Star, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

0:38

once graced. I sat down with

0:40

Senator Warnock in Washington last week

0:42

to talk about his extraordinary journey

0:45

from the housing projects of Savannah

0:47

to these lofty places and how

0:49

he's using his platform to continue

0:52

the social justice mission of Dr.

0:54

King. Here's that conversation. Senator

1:02

Warnock, I'm so glad

1:04

to see you. I've been wanting to have this

1:06

conversation for a long time. Thank

1:08

you. Great to be here with you.

1:10

You know, I was thinking when I woke up

1:12

this morning, I was thinking about having this conversation

1:14

and the last couple of weeks I talked to

1:16

Jeff Zeleny, who was a colleague of mine at

1:18

CNN, and Jeff, he grew up on a farm

1:20

in Nebraska, overcame this withering

1:22

stutter to become one of the leading

1:24

broadcast journalists in America, lost his dad

1:26

in a farm accident.

1:29

And then the following week I talked to Stephanie

1:32

Murphy, who you may know is a member of

1:34

the house, who was a refugee

1:36

from Vietnam and was picked,

1:38

scooped up by the US Navy and grew

1:41

up in a trailer park in Virginia and

1:43

wound up working at the Pentagon, actually

1:46

doing the Navy budget and became

1:48

a United States Congresswoman. And

1:51

I thought, these are great American stories.

1:54

These are threads of the great American

1:56

tapestry, and you're a great American story.

1:59

So I'm really... eager to talk about

2:01

that, we can get to the politics later.

2:04

But talk to me about your family,

2:07

not just Jonathan and Verline, but you

2:09

must have traced your family back to

2:11

its beginnings in the States. Well,

2:14

thank you so very much. And look,

2:17

this is what we love about America,

2:19

is that there is this path to

2:21

possibility. And you're

2:23

right, I am an iteration of the

2:26

American dream and the American story. My

2:28

father was a pastor

2:31

and a small businessman and his business was

2:33

literally picking up old junk cars. And

2:39

he still is my greatest hero, bless

2:41

his memory. I love, by the

2:44

way, that you said about him that he worked

2:46

on broken cars on weekdays and worked on broken

2:48

people on Sundays. That's right. That's right.

2:51

I saw him, he didn't have the benefit

2:53

of all the wonderful schools that I was

2:55

able to attend because of his hard work.

2:58

And so he was self-trained, but he was

3:00

such a wise man. And there was a

3:03

depth of his preaching that

3:05

was buoyed by his experience as a

3:07

black man born in 1917, a

3:10

man who literally on one

3:12

occasion had to give up

3:14

his seat while riding a

3:16

public bus with his army

3:19

uniform on. And yet

3:21

he never gave in the bitterness. He never lost

3:24

hope in what America was

3:26

and what it could be. You said

3:28

it had Lincoln and Kennedy

3:31

portraits on his wall. Absolutely. He was

3:33

a patriot. And I

3:37

think I learned how to say the pledge of allegiance in

3:39

Sunday school at his church. My mother

3:41

grew up in Waycross, Georgia, in the 1950s.

3:43

She grew up, she

3:47

was significantly younger than my father,

3:49

and she grew up picking cotton

3:51

and tobacco. A

3:53

couple of years ago, the octogenarian

3:56

hands that used to pick somebody else's

3:58

cotton and somebody else's tobacco. help

4:00

to pick her son to be a United

4:03

States senator. Yeah, yeah. And you were born

4:05

four years, I guess, after the Civil Rights

4:08

Act was passed. Tell me

4:10

if I get the math wrong. That's about right. I

4:12

was born in 1969, a year after Dr. King's death.

4:15

What, four years after the Voting

4:17

Rights Law? Yeah, which is

4:20

relevant because in some ways

4:22

you were you were who

4:24

the architects of the great

4:26

society had in mind and

4:28

the great anti-poverty programs of

4:30

the of the

4:32

60s that helped you along the

4:34

way. You were the beneficiary

4:37

of these programs. Though Dr.

4:39

King had died, apparently

4:41

even as a small child, he was a great influence

4:44

on you. Very much so. As

4:46

you point out, I was born, you know, a

4:48

year after Dr. King's death. And so

4:50

I didn't live through the Civil

4:53

Rights period. I

4:55

grew up in the south of Anna, Georgia, but

4:57

I never drank from a colored water fountain. I

5:00

never sat on the back of a bus because

5:02

of race. And I'm

5:04

the blessed beneficiary of the foot

5:06

soldiers of that movement.

5:08

Dr. King was great. And part of

5:11

his greatness was that he

5:13

recognized the greatness of ordinary people. He used

5:15

to talk about the ground crew one day

5:17

in the midst of his many travels. He

5:19

was on an airplane and he looked out

5:21

and he saw the ground crew getting things

5:23

ready for the flight to take off. And

5:27

he always reminded folks that it's not just

5:29

about the pilot, it's about the people

5:31

you don't see who make flight possible. And

5:35

it's really ordinary Americans, red, yellow,

5:37

brown, black, and white during the

5:39

movement and in other periods of

5:42

our country's history that

5:44

kept pushing the country forward, that makes

5:46

somebody like me possible. And

5:48

as a result, I grew up... Well,

5:51

let me just stop you for a second because one thing

5:53

that sort of... I

5:55

was sort of a geeky kid and I was moved

5:58

by JFK when I was... five

6:00

years old and that was the beginning of

6:02

everything. You were reciting Martin

6:05

Luther King speeches and sermons

6:08

like as a five and six year old.

6:11

Explain that because I think a lot of people that

6:13

would blow a lot of people's minds. Well, my dad

6:15

was a preacher and my

6:18

mom is a pastor. Which

6:20

point are you the youngest of 11? I'm number

6:22

11 out of 12 kids. I'm the youngest son.

6:25

There are seven boys in the family. So

6:28

faith and talk about faith and the meaning

6:30

of faith in everyday life was part of

6:32

my household. But Dr.

6:34

King absolutely captured

6:36

my imagination. Why? There

6:39

was something about the power of his voice and

6:42

the way in which he used his

6:44

faith to encourage others

6:47

to stand up for themselves and

6:49

never to lose hope. The

6:52

ability to speak in such a way

6:55

that people literally laid their bodies on

6:57

the line in hopes of what could

6:59

be. The

7:03

older I got, the more I studied Dr. King,

7:05

there's a kind of integrity through

7:07

his public ministry. He was

7:10

a flawed, imperfect human being like all of us.

7:12

But part of what inspires me

7:14

to this day is that he stood on the

7:17

side of what he felt was right simply because

7:19

it was right. Knowing that

7:21

he might lose the short term battles

7:23

here or there, but he kept his

7:25

mind and his eye on

7:28

the prize. Certainly

7:31

we could use that kind of integrity, that

7:34

kind of commitment in

7:37

our public life and in our politics

7:39

right now. That kind of courage absolutely.

7:41

Yeah. I know you were preaching from

7:43

the pulpit when you were like 11

7:46

years old. Your nickname

7:48

was Rev when you

7:50

were a kid. So that gives you a

7:52

sense of your profile.

7:57

Like I said, my mom and dad were Pentecostal

7:59

preachers. a lot of passion in those

8:01

churches, a lot of energy. And

8:04

as I talk about in my memoir, I

8:06

detect you've read it. No way out of no

8:08

way. One day

8:10

when I was six years old, I was

8:12

in the room literally just preaching with the

8:14

passion and the zeal of those

8:16

preachers I saw on television, heard on the radio,

8:18

and sometimes in my church, and the sweat was

8:21

pouring. My mom, after a while, she sent one

8:23

of my brothers in and said, hey, go and

8:25

get Ray, as they called me. You

8:27

know, I think he's... We

8:29

might need to rescue him. So

8:32

I was on this path to ministry early

8:34

on. And you know, your dad said

8:37

something about pastoring,

8:40

and he said, and social activism, he

8:42

said, we can't be so heavenly bound

8:45

that we're no earthly good.

8:47

And what's striking about your

8:50

trajectory is you really

8:52

follow the sort of social justice

8:55

path in your ministry. You

8:57

went to Morehouse College where

8:59

Dr. King... That's why I

9:02

went. Dr. King posthumously

9:04

recruited me to

9:06

Morehouse College. I just wanted to be on the

9:08

campus where that inspired

9:10

him. I read about Benjamin Elijah

9:12

Mays, who was president of Morehouse when he

9:14

was there. There's this

9:17

whole black social gospel

9:19

tradition that Morehouse is

9:21

a part of. And the more I read

9:23

about the Civil Rights Movement, the more I

9:25

learned about the ministers around Dr. King, and

9:27

many of them were Morehouse men. And so

9:29

I just wanted to be in this place.

9:31

I wanted to attend the school Dr. King

9:33

attended. I did not know I'd end

9:36

up pastoring the church that he lived.

9:38

Yeah, we'll get to that because it's

9:40

an extraordinary thing. By the way, I

9:42

did a podcast some months ago with

9:44

Walter Massey, who is a

9:46

past president of Morehouse College. Just

9:48

a spectacular and fascinating

9:51

world-class scientist. Yeah, just

9:53

an incredible guy. But while

9:55

you were at Morehouse, you went and

9:57

you interned at the Six Street

10:00

Baptist Church in Birmingham, which

10:03

has a long tradition. Yeah, I

10:05

was at 6th Avenue Baptist Church. The pastor

10:07

at the time was John Porter, and

10:10

he as a young college

10:12

student and seminarian had

10:15

been Dr. King's pulpit assistant

10:18

at the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church

10:21

in Montgomery before the movement took off.

10:23

Yeah, that's where the bus boycott began.

10:25

Right, but before that fateful day when

10:27

Dr. King gave that first speech during

10:29

the boycott at the Holt Street Baptist

10:31

Church, John Porter was

10:34

a young assistant who just

10:36

wanted to get some experience because he knew he wanted to

10:38

go to seminary. And then all of

10:40

those decades later, Dr. King's

10:43

mentee became my mentor. And

10:46

so I've been blessed with wonderful mentors and

10:48

folks who encouraged me along the way. And

10:50

you went up to New York to the

10:52

Union Theological Seminary, which has

10:55

its own sort of

10:57

history of kind

10:59

of social activism. Absolutely.

11:01

Reinhold Niebuhr, Paul Tillich,

11:03

and James Cone, the

11:06

folks who centered their

11:08

words and ministry around

11:10

liberation theology, not just

11:12

in the United States, but in Latin America and

11:14

other places. These

11:17

currents that focus on centering

11:19

marginalized people shaped my

11:21

ministry at Ebenezer

11:24

got me engaged in the kinds of fights that

11:26

I've been engaged in, which

11:29

eventuated in me running

11:31

for office. Yeah, well, one of the influences

11:34

there was the Abyssinian Baptist Church.

11:36

And I remember this because I grew up

11:38

in New York. So I remember Adam

11:41

Clayton Powell, who was one

11:43

of the most powerful members, the most

11:45

powerful black man in America

11:47

in some ways. A powery figure.

11:49

Yeah. And as you are doing

11:52

now, he pastored on Sundays and

11:54

he legislated on weekdays and was

11:57

quite a force. And then Calvin Puss.

12:00

who was there when you were there,

12:02

also quite a force in the community.

12:04

How much did that influence you? Yeah,

12:07

so Dr. King inspired me, but I was

12:09

born after his death. And these

12:11

pastors that you hear me talking about, they

12:13

gave me an example

12:16

of what public ministry would look like

12:18

in a post-civil rights era or during

12:20

my own lifetime. So Calvin Butts was

12:24

a fearless activist when I got to

12:26

New York in the early 90s. I

12:28

was a seminary student. And so I

12:30

spent the weekdays in the

12:33

classroom, but Abyssinian Baptist Church

12:35

and Harlem and the ministry

12:37

that focused on challenging then

12:40

the tobacco companies that were

12:42

particularly preying on the praying

12:44

on those communities. And Dr. Butts activism

12:46

climbing up on billboards and painting over

12:49

them in order to draw attention to

12:51

the issue. It gave me

12:53

an example of how your ministry can come alive

12:55

outside of the walls of the church. And

12:59

I think I've tried to bring the

13:01

spirit of that to my ministry. Yeah,

13:03

well, and you took it to Baltimore,

13:05

which was, I think, your next posting

13:07

in a major church there. 2005,

13:09

you get the call to

13:14

come and pastor

13:16

at Ebenezer Baptist Church,

13:19

which is hallowed ground in

13:21

the civil rights movement. That's

13:24

where Dr. King preached from and

13:26

was his spiritual base and

13:29

very much the kind of focus

13:31

of the world watched what happened

13:33

at Ebenezer Baptist Church. Tell me

13:36

what it was like when you

13:38

got that opportunity. Wow.

13:41

18 years

13:44

later, it's still deeply humbling

13:46

to me that because in

13:48

the Baptist Church, there's no bishop that sends

13:50

you to the church. The congregation

13:52

elected me. And

13:55

when I found out I was a finalist,

13:58

I was happy

14:00

about that because I knew

14:02

that at the bare minimum, I'd get to

14:04

preach from that pulpit one time. So did

14:07

you have to preach and they had to

14:09

judge you as a preacher? That's right. Wow.

14:11

That's right. With Dr. King's sister sitting right

14:13

in front of me. The late... Like America's

14:15

Got Talent. Well,

14:18

not quite. But yeah, Baptist

14:20

listeners, they're listening to me. We

14:22

listen to this guy every Sunday.

14:25

And they actually

14:27

brought in voting machines for

14:29

my election. And so

14:32

I was overwhelmingly selected by

14:34

the church. That's amazing. In 2005

14:36

and it's been a wonderful journey

14:38

ever since. I mean, I got

14:41

involved with issues

14:43

around voting rights, registering people to

14:46

vote. When President

14:48

Obama was pushing forward the Affordable

14:51

Care Act and pushing

14:53

for Medicaid expansion, I

14:55

used my time on Sunday morning to

14:57

talk about the fact that every

15:00

Sunday I preach in memory of someone who

15:02

spent a lot of his ministry healing the

15:04

sick. How could we not expand Medicaid in

15:06

Georgia? Which you're still fighting that battle today.

15:08

Georgia is one of 10 states that

15:12

did not expand Medicaid under the

15:14

Affordable Care Act. So there are

15:16

real tangible implications for Georgians of

15:18

that decision. Yeah, sadly,

15:21

we have some 640,000 Georgians in the Medicaid gap. And

15:27

you know, when you think about, David,

15:30

the folks especially who like to moralize

15:32

about the ethics of work and a

15:34

work ethic, and I believe in work

15:36

ethic. You read my book and my

15:38

dad was a hardworking man who poured

15:40

that ethic into me. But

15:42

the sad irony is that when you talk about

15:44

the people in the gap that would

15:46

be covered by Medicaid expansion, it's largely

15:48

the working work. Exactly. These people work

15:50

every day. Yeah, these are folks who

15:53

make our lives better. They're the ground

15:55

crew. Yeah, and yet, Georgia is one

15:57

of only 10 states that's still

15:59

digging in. its heels, fighting

16:01

the battles, the political battles of

16:03

a decade ago. Earlier

16:06

this week, I was down at the state

16:08

legislature trying to encourage lawmakers to

16:10

finally do the right thing. And

16:14

I mean, it doesn't matter. There's from just

16:16

from a, if you, even if you

16:19

set aside the humanity of

16:21

it, these are dollars that

16:23

should be going to Georgia that Georgia is not

16:25

getting. That's right. As you know, you know a

16:27

little something about this law. The

16:29

federal government would cover 90% of the cost. And

16:32

because I got elected, here's what we were able

16:34

to do. Senator Ossoff and

16:37

I secured about

16:39

$1.2 billion for

16:41

Georgia in extra incentives.

16:45

They just expand Medicaid. You could think of it

16:47

as a signing bonus. So we've

16:49

removed every barrier. And I'm still

16:51

hopeful that at the end of the

16:53

day, Georgia will do what

16:56

North Carolina recently did, what Kentucky

16:58

did. States blue and red. There

17:00

are only 10 holdouts at this point. Imagine

17:02

having Social Security in

17:05

40 states or Medicare

17:07

in 40 states. It's

17:09

unimaginable. And

17:12

somehow the politicians have

17:14

got to stop asking, well, what will

17:17

happen to me if I do

17:20

the right thing and they need to center the people.

17:23

I can tell you Senator, that the

17:25

night the Affordable Care Act passed, the

17:27

House, I went into my office at

17:29

the White House and I wept. And

17:32

I wept not because it was a political

17:34

victory for President Obama. I wept because I

17:37

had a child with a chronic illness

17:39

and I almost went bankrupt when I

17:41

was a young newspaper reporter because

17:43

they wouldn't cover the things

17:45

that she needed. And in

17:48

the years since, I've met so many people who've

17:50

come up to me in tears talking

17:52

about what the Affordable Care Act meant to them.

17:54

And I think the country has now caught up

17:56

with The value of, I

17:58

Hope the Georgia legislature. Does as

18:00

well I went as you one thing that you've

18:02

gone back and as to. Your. Dad.

18:05

Was. Still living when you name

18:08

Pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church.

18:10

Tell me about that. About calling

18:12

him. Been telling him. I

18:15

got this Pope is it was a

18:17

truly special moment. It was Father's Day.

18:19

Ah. Ah when the congregation

18:21

actually hold a vote and they

18:24

called me and said absolutely past

18:26

of of unease a Baptist church

18:28

and I called my father who

18:30

was born in eighteen seventeen. In.

18:33

Our Rule Georgia. And

18:36

them. As

18:38

a happy father's day in and day said

18:41

thank you and as a progressive news for

18:43

you! I was just elected Pastor of Ebenezer

18:45

Baptist Church. Spiritual. Home and

18:47

Mart is a King Jr. And.

18:50

That he was just so very proud.

18:52

He didn't say a whole lot on

18:54

on the phone. I think he

18:56

was just overwhelmed by the thought of and

18:58

all. but. My sister

19:00

said that when you get off the

19:02

so me to say and. We're

19:06

going to take a short break and will be

19:08

right back with more. The axe pass. This

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B O D. And

20:41

now back to the show. After.

20:48

The Civil Rights Act passed in after

20:50

the. Voting. Rights Act

20:52

passed. There was a tremendous backlash,

20:54

particularly in the South. It was

20:56

something Lyndon Johnson predicted. You register

20:59

a lot of voters and I

21:01

know you had an interest in

21:03

the election of for a President

21:05

Obama. You said something like Ebenezer

21:07

prayers have been answered when he

21:09

was elected. We're in a different

21:11

period now. I mean, I think

21:13

about it a lot. We, you

21:15

know, I think about the hopefulness

21:17

of two thousand and eight, the

21:19

inauguration of two thousand, and you

21:21

undoubtedly. Were there? Remember,

21:23

there are conversations about post racial

21:25

America? Yes, yeah, which I think

21:28

you know. We among ourselves had

21:30

conversations that no one knew better

21:32

than Barack Obama that it isn't

21:34

that easy so that it was.

21:36

Never Get that? Progress never comes

21:38

in. Two steps forward and two

21:40

steps forward. Two steps forward and

21:42

I'm wondering whether you believe that

21:44

this period that we're in an

21:47

ad see you know, the Tea

21:49

party movement in the Mag movement

21:51

and so on a reflect a

21:53

backlash. To the election

21:55

of. The first. african

21:57

american president at least in part

22:00

Well, you know, the backlash against

22:02

the Civil Rights Movement started

22:04

happening not after Dr. King's death, but

22:06

in the last two years of his

22:09

life. If you look at

22:11

the polling in 1967 and 1968,

22:13

Dr. King was not

22:15

viewed favorably. I mention

22:18

that because it's easy to forget

22:20

all these years later because he's

22:22

been canonized and lionized. I think

22:25

there is certainly, you cannot account

22:27

for the kind of vitriol we've seen

22:30

without, you can't account for

22:33

it fully without reference to the

22:35

incredible and historic election of Barack

22:38

Obama. But I think that

22:41

there have always been demagogues in our

22:43

country who have played to certain racial

22:45

resentments, people's

22:47

anxiety, often

22:49

the anxiety of poor working class

22:51

folks who rightly

22:53

see very often the disconnect

22:55

between power and the place

22:58

where they live. And there are

23:02

always demagogues who are conveniently

23:04

looking at, you know, make use

23:06

of some scapegoat, whether it's

23:08

black people in the United States

23:10

or immigrants. We're

23:13

seeing that movie, that sad

23:15

movie play out time and

23:17

time again. People who have no

23:19

vision, traffic and division,

23:22

they don't have a plan. They don't know how to lead us, so they're

23:24

trying to divide us. And I think

23:26

that the moral test

23:28

of this moment is the question of

23:31

whether or not we as a nation

23:33

will give in to the demagogues or

23:36

will we embrace the

23:40

high ideals of our country, E Pluribus Unum,

23:42

out of many, one. And

23:45

I feel in a real sense, I'm

23:47

living at the intersection of that important

23:49

moral decision. I was elected the first

23:51

African American Senator, John Ossoff,

23:53

the first Jewish Senator in one

23:55

fell swoop from the state of

23:58

Georgia. John, Ossoff and I are. An

24:00

African American and a Jew. Elected

24:02

from Georgia. On.

24:04

January fifth: I was

24:07

really really good. Of

24:09

what we have achieved. But. The

24:11

very next day. January Six. We.

24:14

Saw. The most

24:16

violent insurrection against our capital. A

24:18

most violent attack on our capital.

24:21

We seizes War eighteen Twelve sued

24:23

by the Big Lie. And.

24:26

Behind that was the unspoken part. Really,

24:28

what was being said is that this

24:30

new emerging and diverse electorate didn't get

24:32

to decide the future, the country and

24:34

so I think in a real sense

24:36

were living at that nexus between the

24:38

hopes and a promise of January Fifth

24:41

Were a kid who grew up in

24:43

public housing. Or the first

24:45

college graduate in his family can become a

24:47

United States Senator. And the fears of J

24:49

were six. And a real sense

24:51

as the like. This election is about

24:54

which direction we're going to go. You

24:56

must hear a lot of the So

24:58

you travel around the state of Georgia.

25:00

You travel a rural areas as you

25:03

know, obviously you. It's interesting to me

25:05

as you euro a minister You you

25:07

you know you. You preach the gospel

25:09

and you go to places where people

25:12

preach the gospel but it's a very

25:14

different message. Ah and tell me a

25:16

First World You think there was any

25:18

more acceptance of you because. You

25:21

you are a minister and

25:23

be taught to about that

25:25

white evangelical movement that has

25:27

become sort of the core

25:29

of mega and the coeur

25:31

have some of that backlash.

25:33

While. There's no question that you

25:36

don't get a President Donald

25:38

Trump. Without. Christian.

25:41

America. And

25:43

I think at some point we're going to have to com

25:45

the term for that. We're.

25:47

Going to have to look deep and are so. Ah,

25:51

and think about the implications of that.

25:54

Very. Often when when I hear.

25:57

The loud as. Christian

26:00

voices in our country. I. Sometimes

26:02

feel like Jesus must be the

26:04

first and biggest. Victim.

26:06

Of identity Seth because.

26:10

This. Hateful rhetoric. This

26:13

impugning of the character of

26:15

poor people and marginalized people

26:18

is a far cry. From.

26:21

The Jesus who said I came

26:23

to preach good news to the

26:25

poor And so what I've tried

26:27

to do is to be continually

26:29

inspired by King, but not only

26:31

him by Fannie Lou Hamer Bow.

26:33

Bow. Louis. So white woman loves her

26:36

life standing up. Password.

26:38

Amy Goodman to Jews and an

26:40

African American. I've tried to use

26:43

my film Killed In the Civilians

26:45

Killed killed fighting for what's right

26:47

mars of the movie And damn.

26:50

I have tried to. Use.

26:54

My. Face as a bridge rather than

26:56

a weapon. And. This

26:59

sounds corny, but I am

27:01

deeply honored. To. Represent the

27:03

people of Georgia in the United

27:05

States senate that they. Elected

27:08

a pastor? I say. Is

27:10

it's own message? And. I often say

27:13

to people and a not a senator who

27:15

used to be a pastor I'm a pastor

27:17

in the senate and fact I still lead

27:19

my church. Yeah and I preach their Molson

27:21

this now. I meant to ask you about

27:24

that because I was thinking boy that's tough

27:26

those are too demanding jobs And then I

27:28

saw a Doctor King who. Preached.

27:30

On Sundays in essentially

27:32

through the Southern Christian

27:34

Leadership Conference sort of.

27:37

Was the the kind of and official

27:40

head of the entire of Civil Rights

27:42

movement so he had to pretty big

27:44

job. He was A he was called

27:47

past where the church know his dad

27:49

actually was the past or he was

27:51

co pastor. I have a somewhat

27:53

different Model M answer and the senior

27:56

pastor a church. I have a very

27:58

effective executive pastor and team that handle

28:00

data the average but you're right,

28:02

I have two big jobs and two

28:05

small children. Yes I know I know

28:07

to the jobs reinforce each other. I

28:09

mean oh absolute think you're a better

28:12

senator because he has during and are

28:14

you a better pastor because of

28:16

your work in the sit there. There's

28:18

no question that I'm a better senator

28:21

because I am a pastor. You take

28:23

something like my work around capping

28:25

the cost of insulin. And

28:27

blocks why so passionate about and I'm very

28:29

able to get that done for seniors. I'm

28:31

trying now to get that thirty five dollar

28:33

cap for everybody does. Excellence in

28:36

be expensive. But. I

28:38

spent decades doings hospital

28:40

visitations, I've. Been

28:42

there when I'm. On

28:44

the diabetes has gotten outta control

28:47

and someone has to go on

28:49

kidney dialysis or get an amputation.

28:52

A been there with the families and

28:54

down. Part of

28:56

what I've learned as a pastor. Is

28:58

that? in a sense, there's nothing more

29:01

important than the Ministry of Presence? While.

29:03

You're working on people's problems. They often.

29:06

there's no simple answer. But

29:08

while you're working on it, people need to know that you're

29:10

there. That. That you're walking with

29:13

them even as you're working for them. And

29:15

I've tried to bring that spirit. To.

29:17

The Senate and by the same token as

29:19

I'm able to look more deeply and spend

29:21

a lotta time on his public policy issues

29:23

I think is also made me a better

29:25

pastor. I. Want to ask?

29:27

you are talking about your social

29:30

justice ministry. Criminal Justice Reform has

29:32

been a piece of that. A

29:34

big piece of that. And

29:37

you have a really personal

29:39

motivation. For. This is that

29:41

goes beyond. your pastor is a community in

29:44

your own family shore and I want you

29:46

to talk about your brother Keys who I

29:48

guess you shared a room with when you

29:50

were growing up. Yeah, they're They're seven boys

29:52

a my family. I'm the youngest son, the

29:55

my brother who's. Just above me,

29:57

About five years older than me. was

30:00

convicted in 1997 of

30:03

a drug-related offense. He was

30:05

sentenced to life in prison, life

30:08

in prison, federal prison. And when they

30:10

say that, I mean to ask your

30:12

physical life without the possibility of parole.

30:15

Now, you hear that sentence and you would automatically

30:17

ask me, well, who did he kill? How

30:20

many people died? What happened here? And

30:23

while my brother's crimes were serious,

30:26

this was a nonviolent drug-related offense

30:28

in which no one died, no

30:31

one was physically hurt. As far as I

30:33

can tell, no drugs even hit the streets

30:37

because this was a kind of sting operation.

30:40

And again, his crimes were

30:42

serious, but for that reason, the police officer

30:44

in his off time, he was providing security.

30:46

Yeah, a lot of, yeah. So

30:49

there was the color of public corruption

30:51

as well. But again, a

30:53

33-year-old police officer, veteran

30:56

and the armed forces served in the

30:58

first, what was

31:00

it, Desert Storm War. First

31:03

time offender, obviously, sentenced

31:05

to life in prison without the possibility of

31:08

parole. I think it brings

31:10

in the sharp focus, the excesses

31:12

of our criminal justice system over the last

31:14

40 or so years, and how it is

31:17

that the United States of America, the land

31:19

of the free, is by

31:21

far the mass incarceration capital of the world.

31:25

How much progress have we made? Not

31:27

enough. And it's something that

31:29

I continue to work on. I've worked

31:31

on it for years as a pastor. We

31:33

started an ending mass incarceration campaign

31:36

at Ebenezer. We have

31:38

partners who are working with us. There's

31:40

the local synagogue,

31:43

the temple in

31:45

Atlanta. They're one of our partners. We've got

31:47

dozens of churches all across the country that are working

31:49

with us. And it's an issue

31:51

that I'm addressing now in the United States Senate. I

31:54

don't know if you said this. We should point out your

31:56

brother was released. He spent 22 years

31:59

in prison. You must have gone down

32:01

and visited him during that period. Oh,

32:04

I visited him many times in

32:06

prison over the years. He was

32:08

finally released ironically

32:12

because of COVID. The

32:16

pandemic created the conditions under which we were

32:18

forced to make some decisions as a country

32:21

about who actually has to be here. And

32:24

those folks were released. My brother was one of

32:26

them. So he's home, but to this

32:28

day, for that crime committed

32:30

all those years ago, he's

32:32

still confined while at

32:35

home. He is under the control of

32:37

the state, and he's very limited in terms

32:39

of what he's able to do. It

32:41

wasn't a new idea when you decided

32:43

to run for the United States Senate.

32:45

You had thought about running for office

32:47

before there were a couple of Senate

32:49

races that you contemplated. And

32:52

I think you wrote that working years

32:54

earlier at Abyssinian Baptist Church

32:56

and learning about the Adam Clayton Powell

32:58

legacy, you thought maybe I could run

33:01

for Congress someday. Tell

33:03

me about the decision to run.

33:06

And did you know what you were getting yourself

33:08

into? I

33:10

don't know if you can completely know, but I

33:12

was a youth pastor and

33:14

then assistant pastor at Abyssinian Baptist Church

33:17

in Harlem. In

33:19

an earlier era, the

33:22

great Adam Clayton Powell Jr. had been pastor of that

33:24

church. And so he

33:26

was a model of a local pastor

33:28

who was the Congressperson representing that district.

33:31

And then there have been other examples, I think, of

33:34

Bill Gray down in Philadelphia,

33:37

who at one point was arguably

33:39

the most powerful black person in

33:41

office. He was chair of the powerful

33:43

House Appropriations Committee, went home

33:45

every weekend, preached at his church

33:47

in Philadelphia. So there have been other examples. And

33:50

so I think the

33:54

first sense that that might

33:56

be something that I might do at some point

33:59

across my mind. while I was at

34:01

Abyssinian. And of course, there were a lot of old-timers

34:03

there who would

34:05

live during the time of Adam Clayton Powell

34:07

Jr. and I was recalled by their stories.

34:11

But it was not an obsession. It was

34:13

just the question. You know, I was thinking

34:16

about this when I was thinking about you

34:18

and the legacy of King

34:20

and I was wondering, would he have

34:22

run, do you think in a different time

34:25

that he would have contemplated running for public

34:27

office? I mean, it's impossible to

34:29

know, but he resisted even

34:31

endorsing anyone generally. He kind of

34:34

stayed out of electoral politics, but

34:37

the folks around him, many of them

34:39

ran from Andrew Young. You think of

34:41

Andrew Young who became the first black

34:44

member of Congress from Georgia since Reconstruction.

34:46

Yeah, you know, we were joking

34:48

before we started that when my

34:51

old boss and friend, President Obama, encountered you

34:53

I think in 2013 and there was some

34:55

talk that you might

34:58

run for office then.

35:01

He was a little taken aback. What

35:04

did he say to you? Yeah, in 2014 there was

35:06

an open Senate seat in Georgia and I thought about

35:08

it for a little while and I said, hey, I'm

35:10

thinking about running for office and he said, you sure

35:13

you want to do that? He

35:15

said, you got a pretty good gig over there

35:17

at Evaneezer. So

35:19

I think it was his way of saying,

35:22

you know, just make sure this is something

35:24

you really want to do. And I took

35:26

a few more years to think about it.

35:28

Well, he was speaking, of course, from experience

35:31

and he knew how brutal this

35:34

can be and you experienced some of

35:36

that when you ran for the Senate.

35:38

Your divorce became an issue,

35:40

some allegations that were unproven kind

35:42

of became part of the

35:45

race involving you and

35:47

your ex-wife. I mean, it's

35:50

ugly. Politics is a contact sport and

35:52

too often just the kind of thing

35:54

that you're talking about causes a lot

35:56

of good people not to run. You

35:59

know, look. if given what

36:01

I already do as a pastor, if

36:04

I had any questions about my

36:06

integrity, the depth of my commitment,

36:09

certain values, I never would have gotten involved in

36:11

this. And I

36:14

got involved in running because I wanted a chance to

36:16

make the world better, to make

36:18

the country better, not only for

36:20

my children, but for other children. And

36:22

I can tell you that the toughest part of this job

36:25

is being away from my

36:27

precious two little children as often

36:30

as I am. I've got a seven-year-old daughter,

36:32

a five-year-old son, and

36:36

they're the ones who keep me grounded, even

36:39

as I am honored, really, to co-parent

36:41

them with their mother. Probably a blessing

36:43

that they were so young when you

36:45

were going through that race because they

36:47

probably had no idea about all the

36:49

ugliness that was flying and the charges

36:52

going back and forth. That's

36:54

the blessed thing about being a child. You've got

36:56

your world is smaller than that. Yeah, I

36:58

do my best to shield them from the

37:01

ugliness of politics. But

37:03

I don't know how good a job I'm

37:06

doing because my seven-year-old daughter is already saying

37:08

she wants to be a United States senator. Is that

37:10

right? Well, tell her

37:12

you've got this covered for a few

37:14

years, so she should probably

37:16

continue in school. Listen, if

37:18

I know my daughter, I better keep my act

37:20

together because she may challenge me. We're

37:24

going to take a short break and we'll be right

37:26

back with more of The Axe Pies. Anderson

37:33

Cooper is back with season two of his podcast,

37:35

All There Is. None of us

37:37

is alone in our sadness and in our struggles. And

37:40

I know it feels like we are. I've

37:43

felt alone for so long. But

37:45

what Francis Weller said in the first episode of

37:47

this season is really true. Anytime

37:50

you walk down the street, any pair

37:52

of eyes you look into, they will

37:54

know loss. All There Is with

37:56

Anderson Cooper is about how we can live on

37:58

with loss and with love. I

38:01

want you to hear what I

38:03

heard in your messages. My name

38:05

is Mary Tyler and Point because

38:07

I want you to know my

38:09

son's name is Alexander like Time

38:11

and listen to all there is

38:13

of Anderson Cooper. wherever you get

38:16

your podcasts. Now

38:22

back to the so. You

38:29

know when you want you want in

38:31

part because you galvanized a lot of

38:33

voters in the black community and I

38:35

want to talk to about. Where

38:38

we are today because. I

38:40

looked at polling. that's one

38:43

of my. Bad

38:45

habits that I can break

38:47

and. What you should

38:49

try as bad for your help know I

38:51

know My wife tells me that all the

38:53

time but one of the one of the

38:55

same set. Is noteworthy is

38:57

that in poll after poll after

39:00

poll the president. Is

39:02

not drawing. The. Kind of

39:05

support among African American voters that

39:07

he drew four years ago that

39:09

you know you see. Donald Trump

39:12

was to twenty twenty one, twenty

39:14

two percent of the votes, and.

39:17

A lot of that is reflected

39:19

in younger. African

39:21

American voters in particular younger Afghan

39:23

men are African American men and

39:26

I was wondering if you have

39:28

any idea why that is. You.

39:30

Know, I think. What's. Happening in our

39:32

country right now is larger than

39:35

any single candidate. Even

39:37

the president. And I

39:39

know I don't know that we've will take

39:41

him out of it. But what is the

39:44

disillusionment when it? when I'm I'm saying that

39:46

the country is going through what I call

39:48

a catalog receiver. Three years of a pandemic.

39:51

Were a million Americans. I don't

39:53

think we think about it. I'm

39:55

a million. Think about the trauma.

39:58

Of Nine Eleven when we. when

40:00

we, you know, we lost what, 4,000

40:02

people or less than 4,000? Way

40:05

too many. But somewhere sitting around

40:07

tables at Thanksgiving and other

40:09

places, there are a million- You

40:12

must have presided over some funeral. Absolutely. I

40:14

did. I remember a few in particular,

40:17

I remember a young coach who

40:19

raised his twin daughters in my church and

40:21

as a young man, he lost his life

40:23

in the early days of the pandemic, but

40:26

the collective trauma of all of that, the

40:28

loss of lives and livelihoods and

40:30

all of that on the heels of 20 years of

40:32

war. I think it

40:34

will be years from now, David, before

40:36

we take stock of what

40:39

has happened to us. No, I think we have

40:41

a post- the

40:43

war certainly is a piece of it.

40:45

We've gone through a lot of different

40:47

traumas and a post-pandemic PTSD. Right. But

40:50

in the midst of that- But talk to me

40:52

about these young black people and

40:54

particularly young black men. Well,

40:56

look, the polls are the

40:59

polls and I think they'll go up

41:01

and down between now and November. So

41:03

you don't see this among- because I

41:05

hear from other folks, including in Georgia,

41:07

who people you know and people who

41:09

are active, concerns about not based on

41:11

polls, but their own conversations with

41:13

young people in the community

41:15

right now. And I assume that you

41:17

must have these kinds of conversations yourself.

41:19

Well, the worst thing you can do

41:21

as a politician, as someone running for

41:23

office, is to take anything

41:26

for granted. And I don't think the president's doing

41:28

that and we're engaged in the fight. I think

41:31

as the election gets closer, it

41:35

will be very clear that we're

41:37

faced with a binary choice. And

41:41

I can tell you that when I've been

41:43

around the president, when I was with the

41:45

vice president down at Morehouse College a few

41:48

months ago, those kids were quite excited that

41:50

she was there. And

41:53

I'm proud of the fact that we've

41:55

done $137 billion of student debt relief for example,

42:00

that's helped 3.7 million Americans. This we

42:02

did with our hands behind our backs,

42:04

with the Republicans suing us. And

42:07

so I think we've got to do what I

42:09

do every Sunday morning, keep telling

42:11

the gospel story, telling the story of $137

42:13

billion of student debt relief, telling

42:18

the story about the fact that in

42:20

a real sense, ironically, the choice in

42:22

this election is about whether women will

42:24

have a choice after this

42:26

election. And I think when people take

42:28

a hard look, if you center the

42:31

people, you have a chance at getting

42:33

the public policy right. The voters

42:35

in Georgia are savvy. If

42:38

you looked at the polls in my race early on,

42:41

and you just judged the outcome based on the

42:43

polls, I wouldn't be sitting here, but I am.

42:47

And I'm proud of the work that we've been able to do

42:49

over the last few years. One of the

42:51

mistakes I think that you

42:53

can make in politics, and I think the president may

42:55

be guilty of this, or it was last fall, it's

42:58

very hard to jawbone

43:00

people into feeling something different

43:02

than they're feeling. You

43:04

look at these economic

43:06

statistics, and they're pretty

43:09

impressive when you consider

43:11

where we were three years ago. And

43:13

yet, and I think it has to do with

43:15

the thing that you talked about, this low grade

43:17

fever, there is still a sense that

43:20

things are going badly, and there are interest rate

43:23

issues and rent issues and all of

43:29

that. So there are things

43:31

that are real that are irritating

43:33

people, but I think there is this hangover.

43:36

And I wonder whether

43:38

just reciting statistics is

43:41

going to change the way people feel about

43:43

their lives. Well, the point

43:46

that I was making, which is

43:49

that at the end of the day, elections are

43:51

about choices. Yes, I hear you. And

43:54

so the people of

43:56

Georgia, the people of our country

43:58

have a choice to make. And

44:01

if the nominees are whom we presume them

44:03

to be, ironically,

44:05

the choice in this election could not be

44:07

more stark. I'll let you and,

44:09

you know, I mean, you're much more able as

44:12

a self-proclaimed political hack. Yes,

44:16

yeah. I can't escape

44:18

it. It's the truth. Think about these things

44:21

in political terms. But

44:23

I honestly believe, as

44:25

a pastor who got

44:27

in this work because of my

44:29

lifelong commitment to service, I

44:32

believe that if you center the people

44:34

rather than the politics, maybe

44:37

not in the way you want them to or when you want

44:39

them to, the people will feel it. People

44:41

know a phony when they spot one. I

44:44

think that in the way in which

44:47

you talked about your own pain

44:49

around your daughter and

44:51

how that translated in your work around health care,

44:55

I think that when you think about Joe Biden,

44:58

the man who has seen much

45:00

pain and trauma and grief in his own life,

45:03

I think he brings that spirit to

45:06

his work. And

45:09

the contrast couldn't be more stark. And

45:12

I worry, I worry

45:14

when we look, I know the

45:16

politics matter, but I

45:19

do worry when we focus solely on

45:21

that. Right now in this moment, we've

45:23

got folks who are saying, we're not going to

45:26

do anything on this border deal because it might

45:28

help. Yeah, no, I want to ask about that.

45:30

Or we're not going to do anything on the

45:32

child expanded, the expanded child tax credit because it

45:34

might help the president. Are you kidding me? So

45:37

here are folks who are saying the quiet part

45:40

out loud. They are clearly so focused on the

45:42

next election that they're not thinking about the next

45:44

generation. I think the voters will see through that.

45:46

I will ask you about that. I want to

45:48

ask you about bipartisanship because it's something that you

45:51

stress when you were running

45:53

for reelection. And I want to ask you

45:55

about how much is possible under

45:57

these circumstances. But

46:00

one other issue relative to

46:02

the black community and younger African

46:04

Americans that I wanted to ask you about, I

46:06

remember the Civil Rights Movement. I'm a couple of

46:08

years older than you, and I remember as a

46:11

child, and one of the things I'm Jewish, one

46:13

of the things that we took pride in in

46:16

our home was the fact

46:18

that the Jewish community was

46:20

deeply invested in the Civil

46:22

Rights Movement. You mentioned Schwerner,

46:24

Cheney, who were murdered trying

46:27

to fight for voting rights.

46:29

But there is a rift that's grown up

46:31

over time, and now we have this issue of

46:34

the war in the Middle

46:36

East. And that has

46:39

really been a source of

46:41

tension between younger voters generally

46:43

and younger voters

46:45

of color and the

46:47

administration, because the president has taken

46:50

a strong position of support for

46:52

Israel. Not necessarily the way they've

46:55

prosecuted the war, but their right

46:57

to defend themselves. I know

47:00

you've been a strong supporter of Israel as

47:02

well. Tell me how you're navigating this

47:04

issue and whether you have

47:06

concerns, whether you share concerns

47:08

with some of these young people who

47:10

are disillusioned. Well, the issue is

47:13

complicated, obviously. And if it were

47:15

simple, it would have been resolved long before

47:17

now. Again, for me,

47:20

my North Star is to center

47:22

people's humanity. We

47:25

can't forget that October

47:27

7th represented the

47:29

single deadliest year for Jewish

47:31

people since the Holocaust. I

47:34

recall with horror every

47:36

time I think about what

47:40

happened that day about the use

47:42

of rape as a weapon of war, the

47:44

attacks on seniors and

47:47

on babies and children. And

47:51

we can't forget about that. At

47:54

the same time, we can't forget about Palestinian

47:57

people who in the

47:59

end of the day, case of Gaza

48:01

were already living in a hellish

48:03

situation, made worse

48:05

by this awful

48:09

tragedy, visited upon them

48:11

in a real sense by Hamas,

48:13

a terrorist organization committed to

48:16

the destruction of Israel and Jewish

48:18

people. And

48:21

I think you can hold those two things. You

48:23

can. And I think that's something that's lost. I

48:25

mean, I weep when I see I'm

48:28

the son of a Jewish refugee from

48:30

Eastern Europe. And my father's home

48:32

was blown up and he grew

48:34

up watching people

48:36

killed all around him. So

48:39

I have obviously very strong feelings

48:41

about what happened on

48:43

that day and the massacre

48:45

that Hamas engaged in. That

48:48

said, it doesn't stop me from weeping

48:50

when I see these

48:52

Palestinian children, innocent children.

48:56

We weep for those children. We weep for

48:58

the hostages. Some of whom are children.

49:03

So, what do you tell these young people? Because

49:05

I have no doubt that somewhere

49:07

in the last several months, you've

49:09

been confronted by young people who

49:12

have concerns, not just young people,

49:14

but people who have concerns. You

49:16

come out of the progressive community.

49:18

What do you say to them? I

49:21

actually preached a sermon about this

49:23

first at a

49:26

Jewish temple on the Friday

49:28

night before King Day and then at my own

49:30

church. And it was simply entitled,

49:34

I Sat Where They Sat. And it's

49:36

taken from a passage from the book

49:38

of Ezekiel, where the prophet says that

49:40

he went down where the exiles were

49:42

in Tel Aviv next to

49:44

the River K bar. And he said, I sat where

49:47

they sat. Before he spoke, he

49:49

just sat among the people. And

49:51

that whole idea of

49:54

sitting where other people sit, as

49:57

simple as it sounds for me, that's the North

49:59

Star for how we get to a

50:01

place other than where we are right now. What

50:04

does it mean to look at the world through

50:07

the eyes of a people, a

50:09

Jewish people, who have never felt safe

50:11

anywhere in the world, who

50:14

carry in their bones not only the

50:16

story of the Holocaust, but literally

50:18

hundreds of years of sometimes feeling safe for

50:20

a little while and then here we go

50:22

again? And what does

50:24

it mean to sit where Palestinian children sit

50:26

and their mothers and fathers who I think

50:29

about this as a parent, I know how

50:32

concerned I can get when my

50:34

children have strep throat. But

50:37

imagine navigating that with bombs dropping

50:39

all around you. I

50:41

think not only for that situation, but

50:43

for our politics here in this country.

50:46

We have somehow got

50:48

to understand that

50:51

the future of our own children is

50:54

inextricably connected to the future of other

50:57

people's children. And if we

50:59

could look at the world through

51:01

the eyes of parents who may

51:03

be viewed as being on the

51:05

other side, will

51:08

that solve the problem overnight? No,

51:10

but it gives us a path in

51:13

thinking about the policies that

51:15

are put in front of us. And

51:18

that's how I approach my point. So

51:20

as a Senator, what do

51:22

you think the United States should do

51:24

relative to this war now

51:28

that has dragged on? I

51:30

mean, I see the President and the Secretary of

51:33

State and others trying to put

51:35

some pressure on the Israelis to rethink

51:37

some of this and perhaps to bring

51:40

at least a pause to the war. But

51:43

how much more should they

51:45

be doing to make

51:47

clear that we need change? We should

51:50

be doing everything we can to save

51:53

lives. And

51:55

it's the reason why I've... Are you

51:57

sad? Let me interrupt you. Sure. But

52:00

how do you, I mean, what's your

52:02

assessment of Prime Minister Netanyahu and the

52:04

way he's prosecuting this

52:07

war, his rejection of a two-state

52:09

solution, which is central to the...

52:11

That's deeply worrisome. For

52:13

me, a two-state solution is the only

52:15

path to a Jewish democratic

52:18

state that embraces

52:21

freedoms and values that we hold

52:23

as Americans. And that

52:25

lives in peace. Next

52:29

to us is Arab neighbors.

52:32

And I was deeply concerned by

52:34

the outright full-throated

52:36

rejection, not that it was a change in

52:38

policy that now has been saying this for

52:40

years. Yes. But the Velikos way in which...

52:42

I experienced it when I was in

52:44

the administration. Yeah, the Velikos way in which he said it

52:47

in recent days is deeply concerning. And I

52:50

think that we have to remain true to our values.

52:53

You talked about bipartisanship, and you

52:55

talked about the fact that the

52:58

president has agreed, apparently in

53:00

principle, to a proposal that your

53:03

colleagues have worked on, Republican and

53:05

Democrat, and I guess, Independent, in

53:08

the Senate, that

53:11

would probably be the most draconian

53:14

immigration law

53:17

in decades. It's

53:21

a recognition that there's a real emergency

53:24

at the border that has to be addressed. And as

53:26

you know, it's now, you

53:28

know, in cities across the country, there's strong

53:31

feeling about it. And

53:34

the Republicans in the House have

53:36

summarily rejected it after saying

53:39

that there's an emergency and we have to deal with it.

53:42

That doesn't look like... On the one hand,

53:44

what you've done, what the Senate apparently is

53:46

trying to do, looks like an exercise in

53:49

bipartisanship. The House killing

53:51

it doesn't hold out much hope

53:53

for governance on

53:55

a bipartisan basis. I

53:58

think people should ask themselves, why did they come here in the first place? place.

54:01

Like I came here to try to

54:03

make people's lives better and to make sure that we

54:06

stand up for American security in the

54:08

world, that our people are safe. And

54:11

this situation in Ukraine is

54:13

very serious. The issue

54:15

at the border is a real crisis.

54:17

And we had Republicans tie the

54:21

issues around immigration and the border, which is

54:23

one of the most fraught areas in American

54:25

politics to Ukraine because they said it was

54:27

that important. And they said, well, we

54:29

won't move on the Ukraine, which

54:32

I see as such a critical

54:34

security issue. And we're

54:36

at a critical juncture as well. And then

54:39

we manage, look, you've got James Langford,

54:41

whom I know, certainly no

54:45

liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

54:48

He puts this together along with his

54:50

Democratic negotiators and partners

54:52

on the other side. And

54:54

folks who haven't even seen, who have not

54:56

even seen the Bill Tex thing,

54:59

it's a no-go. Well, not

55:01

only that, he was censured by the

55:03

Oklahoma Republican Party. Right. I

55:05

think that the people at home look

55:07

at this, and this

55:09

is what turns people off from politics. Because

55:13

the central question

55:15

is, what's

55:17

good for the politicians? We've made

55:19

politics too often

55:22

about the politicians. Who's

55:24

up, who's down, who's in, who's out? And I

55:26

think that people at home are asking, who cares?

55:28

And more importantly, who cares about us? Yeah.

55:31

No, I think the impression that people have,

55:33

and they're not wrong a lot of the

55:35

time, is that many decisions are

55:37

made with the next election

55:40

in mind. No question. And whether what

55:42

needs to be done to strengthen

55:45

one's party or oneself, vis-a-vis

55:47

an opponent, rather than

55:50

solving problems, weaponizing problems rather than

55:53

solving them. And this seems like

55:56

an example of that. I mean, clearly there's

55:58

some folks who've decided that they'd rather have

56:00

the issue where the one of them is

56:02

Donald Trump than to solve the problem. And

56:05

again, I think this

56:07

is what leaves people jaded, turned off

56:09

from politics. And the work

56:11

that I'm trying to do every single day in

56:13

myself is to make sure

56:15

that I don't become that. Yeah, I'm gonna ask

56:18

you that. Have you been asked to and have

56:20

you found yourself having to make decisions that

56:23

in your heart of hearts you

56:25

don't feel good about because of

56:27

the pulls of partisan politics?

56:30

Look, leadership at this level

56:32

especially means that you're

56:34

often confronted with decisions where there's

56:36

no ideal answer. So

56:39

that's what I wrestle with, with issues

56:41

as complicated, for example, as the one

56:43

you raised earlier around Israel,

56:45

Gaza. Well, this immigration issue is

56:47

pretty complicated too. And the immigration

56:50

issue. Would you embrace

56:52

a deal like the one that's been

56:54

outlined? You must have been briefed

56:56

somewhat by now. I

56:58

think that the only way to get

57:01

to a sustainable solution is

57:04

a bipartisan path. And

57:06

I'm heartened by the fact

57:08

that there are people that I do respect

57:10

who are at the center of this negotiation.

57:12

I need to see some more of the

57:14

bill text. But this idea that we're gonna reject

57:18

it outright because we're

57:20

focused on the implications for the next election,

57:22

that's what folks are saying. They're saying the

57:24

quiet part out loud is

57:27

deeply disheartening. I interrupted you though. You

57:29

were talking about sort of the thought

57:32

processes that you go through all the time.

57:34

You say it's complicated. Yeah, I

57:36

try really hard to get to the right

57:38

answer. I

57:40

mean, very often

57:43

we're confronted with problems where there's

57:45

no ideal answer. There are gonna

57:47

be pros and cons.

57:49

There are gonna be problems with whatever the

57:51

answer is. The problem

57:54

with a functioning democracy in

57:56

a big pluralistic country is

57:59

that there's never a perfect

58:01

answer, and there's never an answer that's going

58:03

to please everyone. Sounds

58:05

like a Baptist church. Not

58:08

that much different, David. Progress,

58:10

by definition, requires

58:12

sacrificing something, and

58:15

the question is, is the

58:17

balance right? Is the imbalance,

58:20

is it the right thing? Let me ask

58:22

you before you go, your

58:24

name comes up from time to time in

58:27

terms of future. I don't

58:29

expect you to answer this because you're too smart

58:31

to do it, but I

58:33

mean, in some ways, you're the profile

58:35

of the kind of candidate in the

58:37

Democratic Party who could do well within

58:39

the party and outside the party. And

58:43

so your name comes up all the time when you ask

58:45

for people for a list of people who might be a

58:47

national candidate in the future.

58:49

Is that something that you

58:51

would rule out? You ask the

58:54

question in such a smart way, David. I hope

58:56

so. I know, I don't expect

58:58

you to... The fact that you recognized that I

59:00

did tell you that it wasn't smart enough. Listen,

59:05

my name has been on the ballot in

59:07

Georgia five times in the last

59:09

three years, and you know the

59:11

happiest thing about this year for me is that

59:14

I'm not running. Yeah.

59:16

Well, here's the good news. There's not

59:18

another presidential election for four more after

59:20

this, so plenty of time to rest

59:23

and heal. You won't stop, will

59:25

you? No, but I have to because

59:27

we're out of time. No, the pastor's going to say amen.

59:30

How about that? I'll give the benediction. Senator

59:32

Reverend, it's really a pleasure to spend time with

59:34

you, and I hope this is the

59:37

first of many conversations. Enjoyed it so

59:39

much. Thank you. Thank

59:43

you for listening to The Axe Files, brought to

59:45

you by the Institute of Politics at

59:47

the University of Chicago and CNN

59:50

Audio. The executive producer of the

59:52

show is Miriam Fender Annenberg.

59:55

The show is also produced by Sarah

59:57

Leena Berry, Jeff Fox, and Hannah Grace

59:59

McDonald. And special thanks

1:00:01

to our partners at CNN, including Steve

1:00:04

Lichtai and Haley Thomas. For

1:00:06

more programming from the IOP,

1:00:09

visit politics.uchicago.edu.