0:00

Hello my good man. Welcome

0:03

everyone. It's

0:10

time for On the Couch with Sickly Blue. A

0:13

lot of crazy, crazy things. Looking

0:16

at fantasy football from a

0:18

deeper place. This is gonna

0:20

be a changing day in

0:23

your life. And

0:25

now here's your host, Sickly Blue. But

0:28

I would not blow to my mother.

0:31

What about the upcoming season? Is the most

0:33

exciting that more this week on the couch?

0:36

So excited to be joined by Doug. For

0:39

our... Doug, when you think about the 2024 season,

0:42

what gets you excited? Oh

0:45

gosh, all kinds of stuff. I

0:47

did it pieces on the best

0:49

offensive and defensive scheme fits. I

0:52

find that I like to watch defense more than offense. I don't know

0:54

why. But the Cardinals

0:56

got a whole new secondary with

0:59

two new corners and a new safety,

1:01

all of which I like. I'm

1:04

looking at the Lions getting Terry

1:06

on Arnold, especially an NS Rickshaw

1:08

Jr. because really

1:11

they had to stop playing man coverage because they just

1:13

didn't have any guys who could do it. If you've

1:15

watched Arnold, his tape is like,

1:17

whoa, okay, they can do that. The

1:20

Eagles getting Qui Non Mitchell and Cooper

1:22

DeGene, kind of a similar thing. The

1:25

Cowboys front with Marshawn Nealon, who

1:27

I... The first time I watched

1:29

his tape was at the combine and I'm in the media

1:31

room just giggling because the guys like the Tasmanian devil. The

1:35

Green Bay Packers getting three new safeties. And

1:38

then Renardo Green, especially, and Malik

1:40

Mustafa with the 49ers. And

1:43

I found it interesting. I went back and looked

1:45

at some numbers and with Shavarius

1:48

Ward and Diamandor Lenoir, they were such a

1:50

press coverage team last year. So they get

1:52

another guy, Renardo Green from Florida State, who

1:55

was just press, press, press. And

1:57

I find it interesting also, and we've talked

1:59

about... We had Greg Gosell and I do

2:01

a podcast every week. We did a

2:03

whole episode on the press coverage revolution in

2:06

the NFL, where it kind of looks like 1974 all

2:08

over again. And,

2:11

you know, so what I, you know, I'm

2:13

just really interested in how new

2:16

players sort of fit into what

2:19

the schemes are or now will

2:21

be. You know,

2:23

I got to I got to spend about 10 minutes with

2:25

Josh Allen on a Zoom call this week and got a

2:28

couple articles out of that. And he was

2:30

talking about how with Joe Brady in his first year as

2:32

OC. And he said, and

2:34

this was my poll coil. I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad

2:36

you said this. He said, it's not the same mundane stuff

2:38

I've been doing for the last six years. And I'm like,

2:41

okay. All right.

2:44

Brian, Dave Olin Ken Dorsey taking shots out

2:46

there. So I I'm really interested in, and

2:49

I look at Caleb Williams with the bears

2:51

and I'm trying to eliminate the 75 year

2:53

quarterback curse and all

2:55

the pieces they have around him

2:57

and I'm like, well, if he's not the

3:00

guy, it's not going to be Ryan polls

3:02

his fault because I can't think of an offense

3:04

that a team that did more to accentuate

3:07

their passing game in this

3:09

off season than the bears, which is kind of a

3:11

remarkable thing to say, not something that usually comes out

3:13

of your mouth. I

3:15

mean, in general, we can certainly talk about specific

3:17

things. I always like to tie

3:20

players to schemes and just kind of a man

3:22

into my head and watch tape and do met

3:24

what that, what is that going to look like

3:26

that that to me is what I find probably

3:28

most interesting. Yeah. I like

3:30

the idea of looking at things

3:32

that like intersections and looking for

3:34

alignment, um, just off the

3:36

top of your head, since we're just on the

3:38

wake of the draft, um, you know,

3:41

give me a team that you feel

3:43

like did a really good job drafting

3:45

to actually fit their scheme.

3:49

I would go, I would go back to

3:51

the lions with, because this was a real,

3:53

it was the one kind of fatal flaw

3:55

in a team that is loaded for bear.

3:59

They just, they. they tried to sort of

4:01

spackle their corner bet group together and it

4:04

didn't work. So they get up, Arnold,

4:06

I think is a day

4:09

one outside man

4:11

press dominant corner. I mean, he'll

4:13

take his lumps in the NFL.

4:16

Rake straw, it's funny because I

4:19

think a lot of people are higher on him than I

4:22

am. And it was because the first game I watched

4:24

of him was against Florida where Ricky Pearsall just ate his

4:26

lunch. And it's

4:28

hard when your first experience is

4:30

profoundly bad or profoundly good with

4:32

a prospect. And you're

4:34

like, I have to get this out of my head or I

4:36

have to like put it in a small box on the shelf

4:38

and not have it be the whole thing. Because

4:41

otherwise, if you're not careful, you

4:43

see everything in a bias with

4:45

either the profoundly positive or the

4:47

profoundly negative. But I think what

4:49

the Lions did, I think

4:52

what the Eagles did with Quiyan Mitchell and Cooper

4:54

DeGene, the Cardinals getting guy

4:56

and the Cardinals secondary was horrible last year.

4:59

But they got Max Melton, they

5:02

really attuned

5:04

their secondary to guys

5:07

who can do what Jonathan Gennan and his

5:10

staff want to do. Other

5:12

instances, like the Bills got Cole Bishop,

5:14

who I loved. And that might not

5:16

be a one year thing. You

5:20

look at the Packers getting Xavier

5:23

McKinney and a free one of the

5:25

most underrated defensive players in the NFL,

5:28

just a remarkable player. Then they

5:30

go back and get two safeties in the draft.

5:32

And I'm thinking, okay, why do you get three

5:34

safeties? Well, because of the increase in big nickel,

5:37

which a lot of teams are not, which is

5:39

of course, nickel with three safeties. So those

5:42

are a few at the top of my head, just

5:44

I'm looking at my list of best defense of scheme

5:47

fits. That's certainly what the

5:49

Bears have done. The

5:52

commanders were the only a quarterback away,

5:54

we're about to find out. But yeah,

5:56

there are certainly a lot of intriguing

5:58

things like that. It's just, okay,

6:01

let's, let's, let's press these guys into what

6:03

we want to do and

6:05

see what happens. The bills, by

6:07

the way, and I

6:09

pointed this out when I did a tape piece

6:11

this morning, finished this morning

6:14

where, you know, okay, when Josh Allen says

6:16

his first six years were mundane, as opposed

6:18

to what is going to happen with Joe

6:20

Brady. Well, what does that mean? And

6:22

you can see somewhat on the field, but the bills

6:24

are going into the 2024 season. Khalil

6:27

Shakir is the only receiver

6:30

who has caught a pass from Josh Allen on

6:32

their roster. That's kind

6:34

of remarkable. So you bring in, you know, all these different

6:36

guys and, you know, Keon Coleman

6:38

in the draft and Chase Claypool, like, will

6:40

he ever figure it out? And, you know,

6:42

Curtis Samuel underrated guy, KJ Hamler, you know,

6:45

can he do anything? Um,

6:47

and it's, it's a great, you know,

6:49

we're just getting into mandatory mini camps

6:51

next week, so we don't really

6:53

know anything. All we can do is speculate, but you

6:55

know, speculation is fun. What we

6:57

do. Yeah. I think that what

7:00

you described is this process

7:02

of massaging our brains.

7:04

So we really understand the range

7:06

of possibilities and the why

7:08

behind that range of possibilities.

7:10

So when we start seeing what's going on in

7:12

camp and we start hearing, you know, the bills,

7:15

like you just gave us two, uh, alternate

7:18

possibilities. One is that Josh

7:20

Allen maybe has been kind

7:22

of bored or feels like

7:24

there's more he

7:26

could have been doing if he was stimulated

7:28

by, by the offenses before.

7:30

But on the other hand, that's a

7:33

short time to ramp up and develop

7:35

chemistry and not completely

7:37

new offense, but certainly it's going

7:39

to be different than what we saw in the

7:41

second half of the year, last year, because like

7:43

you said, there's going to be some different personnel.

7:46

And then when we start hearing about how things are going

7:48

in and training camp, we

7:51

can start seeing which, which track are we on here?

7:54

And I want to go touch on this Josh Allen interview. It's

7:56

like you said, you got to spend 10 minutes with him. Um,

7:59

and It was a low to

8:01

10 minutes. He's a really really smart guy that

8:03

people who think oh Yolo He doesn't just think

8:05

he just no no no no no no he's

8:08

a really smart guy Yeah,

8:10

and in general look this is just one of

8:12

those moments to say and you mentioned Greg Cozell

8:15

and Greg Greg Cozell is for people

8:17

like us like a true trailblazer I

8:19

mean, he's Don Corleone. No one has

8:21

taught me more about football than Greg

8:23

I've known I've been fortunate to know

8:25

raid for 15 years and I would

8:27

be 20%

8:30

the analyst I am without his help And

8:34

he from a sports media standpoint Doug

8:36

he was part with Steve Sable rest

8:38

in peace Yeah, Sable another to pause

8:42

it just put out there that maybe people

8:44

like to think about football maybe

8:47

media content that is

8:50

for the thinking fan could work

8:52

and You

8:54

know so without them this whole Ecosystem

8:58

that we inhabit it doesn't

9:01

exist and Like

9:04

you said about Josh Allen There's

9:08

there's a lot of cerebral intellectual

9:11

Deep-thinking reflection going on there

9:14

But and you kind of anticipated my

9:16

question because I was gonna ask you not a

9:19

football X is an O's question but ask you

9:21

just about Getting to talk to

9:23

players and it seems like you do a good job Because

9:25

of that knowledge that Greg Cozell and others

9:27

have helped you develop to putting players at

9:30

ease This isn't a media

9:32

thing. You don't to come up with sound bites

9:35

We're just talking football and hanging out

9:37

But I'm just curious other than Josh

9:39

Allen Maybe somebody else that is stuck

9:41

with you or stood out when you

9:43

look back over all the time You've

9:45

got to spend with players Is

9:48

something you learned about them or picked up on

9:50

that has nothing to do with football Well,

9:55

I became a credentialed reporter in 2010

9:57

and I'm up here I live in

9:59

Seattle So it was one of those just fortunate

10:01

things where I got to watch the Legion of Boom

10:03

getting built from the ground up and it Was one

10:06

of the most remarkable. I don't and I don't know

10:08

that I'll ever see anything like that ever again Imagine

10:11

seeing one of the top five defenses in

10:14

NFL history being built right in front of

10:16

your face over for your period Well,

10:19

I'll say it, you know Different

10:23

players. I mean in that locker room was so

10:25

full of alphas and interesting people. I became friends

10:27

with Richard Sherman had

10:29

a connection with Michael Bennett and boy that there's

10:31

a guy who fiercely

10:34

intelligent very very much his own person

10:36

like there are not there's one Michael

10:38

Bennett and that's it both on

10:40

and off the field Always

10:42

remember the first four plays of Super Bowl 49 Where

10:45

they lined him up at left defensive then

10:47

left defensive tackle right defensive tackle and right

10:49

defensive end He got three pressures in those

10:52

four snaps The fourth play was

10:54

a run play and I

10:56

asked Dave DiGeliemo that week During

10:59

media night. What do you think of Michael Bennett?

11:01

And he just give me this long sigh and

11:03

said he's Reggie White We don't know how to

11:05

block him. Mm-hmm The

11:08

thing I learned well it to

11:11

to bounce off your question, it's a really underrated

11:15

You know people ask me or whoever else for advice on

11:17

how to do this or how to get into it or

11:19

how to you know Make money and do it for a

11:21

living And

11:23

it's something I sweat a lot, especially if

11:26

I'm I've watched tape with about 40 different

11:28

players since I started doing it in You

11:36

need The the art

11:38

of asking questions is

11:40

something that really isn't discussed and it really needs to

11:42

be when you talk about putting people at ease Right.

11:45

I found that if I was talking to a

11:47

player for the first player or a coach for

11:50

the first time and I had A

11:53

play in mind that I knew

11:55

that I would imagine a player would be

11:57

interested in discussing or a personal anecdote,

12:00

you know, something I learned from reading

12:03

about them. Not

12:05

because these guys are smart, and they've

12:07

been, you know, they've been they've

12:09

had the media in front of them for years

12:11

or decades, depending on their experience. So

12:14

they know when someone's trying to snow them or get over.

12:16

But if you have a genuine interest in them,

12:18

and you phrase the

12:20

opener in a way that really

12:24

matters to them, hey, this guy's actually done

12:26

his homework here, right? But

12:28

one of my guards down, and

12:30

these guys all have several guards,

12:32

you know, several sort of temples

12:34

to keep people from getting in

12:36

and doing hit jobs on them.

12:40

But I think just in to

12:42

make your question more general, how

12:44

do you put those people at ease? It's

12:48

it's the it's knowing how to ask questions

12:50

and the sequential nature of those questions. Like

12:52

how do you go from me to be

12:54

to see like if I have

12:56

20 minutes on zoom to watch save with a player

12:58

or I'm watching, you know, first

13:00

time I watched it was sure I was in the Seahawks DB

13:02

room, and it took me six months to get him to do

13:04

it. He didn't want to do it. And

13:08

I, I backed off for a while. And then I went

13:10

back into the Seahawks locker room. I was at SI at

13:13

the time in 2013, just walked up and he

13:15

was sitting in his locker and said, Hi, sure. I'm

13:18

back. He just rolled his eyes and said, DB

13:21

room tomorrow. After

13:23

lunch. Okay. And

13:26

once he got him in there, it was great

13:28

because, you know, everyone knows smart

13:30

how football smart he is. So

13:34

you're building those relationships, you're developing those relationships.

13:36

It really, and I

13:38

see it so often just people don't know how

13:40

to ask questions. It's

13:42

not. And then the follow ups,

13:44

I find this I don't want to get on

13:46

a rant on political journalism, which I certainly could

13:49

for a whole hour. Hours.

13:52

Jesus. The, the,

13:54

the inability to ask follow ups

13:57

and to know how to do it because whoever the.

14:00

PR person is they want you to ask one question,

14:02

they're going to move on to the next. So how

14:04

do you time the end of the

14:07

answer to quick follow

14:09

up? You just said this,

14:11

what about that? I see so

14:13

few follow ups. It's like, what are we

14:15

doing here? Are you right? Are you a stenographer?

14:18

And then this applies to whether you're covering football

14:20

or a presidential

14:22

election or garden tools? I

14:24

don't care. But it's really.

14:27

And I

14:30

didn't go to journalism school. So I don't know

14:32

how this is covered. You did. So maybe you for

14:34

a year and a half. Is it

14:36

covered at all the art of asking questions? Because

14:38

I think that's one of the most important things

14:40

to put people at ease to open them up

14:42

to let them know, hey, I'm with someone who,

14:45

you know, I'm not, I'm not

14:47

going to baby someone. Right. I'm not

14:49

going to leave something out. If

14:52

it happens. When I

14:55

was at Yahoo, I don't know if you remember

14:57

when Adrian Peterson compared the NFL to modern day

14:59

slavery. He

15:02

was on the phone with me. I was one of that quote.

15:04

And I put that article up

15:06

and all hell broke loose. His

15:08

agent texted

15:10

me and said, you will never talk to another one

15:12

of my clients again. Adrian didn't say that. And

15:15

so I sent him the audio. Right. Oh, okay.

15:18

Sorry. Nevermind. But

15:22

just in general, the there, there

15:24

is a

15:27

subtle art to asking questions and

15:29

then following up. And as

15:31

much as you outline your story, you

15:35

have to outline the questions you ask. I

15:37

mean, like Greg Crocel and I got to watch

15:39

tape with Bo Nix a couple months ago, before the

15:42

draft. And we were

15:44

so impressed with how smart he was. But I

15:46

was in a Google Doc watching tape and to

15:49

the word, all the

15:51

questions, you know, I'm gonna, we're gonna talk

15:53

about this play. It's gonna bounce off of this play

15:56

to this place in this place. I never

16:00

Unless I you know, I Bump

16:03

into someone off the off hand.

16:05

I have my phone with me and they want to talk to

16:07

me for five minutes if

16:09

it on time to prepare it's different but

16:13

If I'm talking to a player for any reason,

16:15

I mean I didn't I knew

16:17

I had ten minutes with Josh Alan

16:19

So I'm not gonna sit there

16:22

and fumble around. I have to know exactly what

16:24

yeah, and I have to know how those questions

16:26

tie together So that's a

16:28

long way of saying if

16:30

you want to get People interview

16:33

subjects more on your side really start to think

16:35

about the questions you're asking as opposed to just

16:37

you can't just make it Up or you're gonna

16:40

we were talking before about you know, not sounding

16:43

or writing or being like everyone else If

16:46

you really think about that stuff, I think it gives you

16:48

a big leg up Yeah,

16:50

I think you hit the key

16:52

point at the end and just like

16:55

all other advice us gray beards can

16:57

pass on Doug It's not about you.

16:59

It's not about you. Oh never It's

17:02

not about you and in the age and

17:04

we're lucky in some ways to have come

17:06

up I mean, yeah, we represented football guys

17:08

or football outsiders So we did represent a

17:10

brand but the brand was really just here's

17:13

a bunch of people that are interested in

17:15

football Doing stuff about football. That was really

17:17

it like just they just want

17:19

to be doing it They're that that's why

17:21

they're here when they weren't there was no

17:23

plan to partner with gambling companies or Work

17:26

had the NFL hire all of us or it

17:28

was just hey, we like doing this stuff at

17:30

least at the beginning and Making

17:33

out I mean, yeah the the heroes

17:35

of our age whether it's Dan Jenkins

17:37

or Frank de Ford or dr Z

17:39

or you know, Gary Smith or whoever

17:41

you like Jenkins

17:45

certainly he was about forwarding his own

17:47

brand as my telling a story Which

17:50

is great and he did it better than anyone I

17:53

like dr. Z who really was about telling

17:57

the story of the player There

18:00

was one time in the 60s, I don't remember the newspaper

18:02

he worked for. They sent him to the Packers locker room

18:04

to get a story on Bart Starr. He spent the whole

18:06

time talking to the offensive line about

18:08

their blocking schemes and he almost got fired for it.

18:11

Because well, everyone else is

18:13

gonna talk to Bart Starr. I wanna talk

18:15

to Jerry Cramer. Right. Buzzy person, see, what

18:17

is the Packer suite? Because

18:19

no one else is gonna talk about that. So

18:22

that's, you know. Yeah,

18:24

and I mean, that, and embedded

18:26

in that too again, is

18:29

this idea of what's

18:32

interesting to you, like you said. How

18:36

do you get people to open up? We have

18:38

to have curiosity. You have to have taken an

18:40

interest in them. You have to have taken an

18:42

interest. You're not just teeing up

18:44

a question for you to get a headline to

18:46

attach your name to. But one of the things

18:48

you said, and boy, you wanna talk about a

18:50

topic we could go off. It's off season. It's

18:52

one of the reasons I was happy to have

18:54

you on right now, Doug, is we're on tight

18:56

football. Yeah, there'll be some football stuff in here.

18:58

But I have football connects to every other topic.

19:01

And if you're talking about football and

19:03

pretending that these topics are all insular,

19:06

then you're missing the picture. And

19:09

I think that you mentioned about

19:11

how players have their guard up.

19:15

And how there's

19:18

stuff being communicated,

19:20

like the question you

19:23

ask, how you ask the question. Like you

19:25

said, what the next question is. Does your

19:27

next question even reflect, like were you listening

19:29

to their answers? Were you considering it? Yeah,

19:33

as I interrupt you to make a point. Yeah,

19:38

it's a big deal. Listening

19:40

to the tale. And

19:42

people, are you listening to listen or are you listening

19:44

to talk? Right, just the same

19:46

thing. I'm too

19:48

guilty of listening to talk sometimes. And I'm so

19:50

thinking about the next thing that I will, and

19:53

I work on this. I will fail to listen.

19:55

And I've had people tell me, you got to

19:57

stop interrupting so much. And I'm

19:59

like. Okay, I'll try them back

20:01

off. But yeah, it's a tough thing.

20:04

And it's a balance and it's an art form

20:06

to, you know,

20:08

keeping those questions in the air. Yeah,

20:10

and to answer your question, because I was at the

20:12

Newhouse School for a year and a half before I

20:14

decided to be a philosophy and policy studies major for

20:16

any number of reasons that could take up more than

20:18

one show. And they weren't

20:20

teaching us that at that point. At

20:23

that point, I remember my first real

20:25

journalism class was learning about how

20:27

you had to learn how to frame your shot

20:29

and set up the camera. You had to learn

20:31

how to edit the tape and edit the sound.

20:33

You wrote the copy. You also delivered the copy.

20:37

So it wasn't just being a reporter.

20:39

Already in 1993, 94,

20:42

they were teaching us, no, no, you have to be an end-to-end content

20:45

creator. The term wasn't out there yet. But

20:47

again, it was about a first

20:49

day class in COM 101, Doug, the class

20:51

that everybody had to take, whether you're RTF

20:54

or podcast journalism or public relations or whatever,

20:56

they told us. It was

20:58

either five or six companies owned like 95%

21:00

of media. This was in 1993. This was

21:02

30 years ago, so this isn't exactly the

21:04

development. But we don't have to

21:06

do that. This is a football show. Real quick, I didn't

21:08

want to say – I love that you mentioned Michael Bennett.

21:11

I think the Bennett Brothers – I was going to say

21:13

the Bennett Brothers are two of the most

21:15

fantastic characters. It would not matter how you

21:17

would come to learn of them. They're

21:20

just fascinating, interesting characters that

21:22

I often quote. I

21:24

think one of the quotes – Well, I'll tell you what happened

21:27

with him. I asked him to watch tape. I was in the

21:29

CX-Lok. I think it was 2014. And

21:32

we had developed somewhat of a relationship. We

21:34

had taught politics a little bit. So

21:38

he knew I wasn't – whatever. And

21:43

I went up to him and said, hey – and I had

21:45

watched tape with Sherm, so I had that in my back pocket. And I

21:47

said, so I did this thing with Sherm. I do it with other guys.

21:51

And I'll tell you the story of how the tape watching started

21:53

in a second. I went up to

21:55

Bennett and said, can I do this with you? And he

21:57

sat next to Cliff Avril because he was the only one

21:59

doing passion. of the LOB and

22:02

he said, yeah, but only if Cliff gets to do

22:04

it too, because no one talks about how good Cliff

22:06

is. That's Michael Beck. Yeah.

22:09

Like I don't want to talk about myself. I want to

22:11

talk about this guy. Marshawn Lynch

22:13

similarly, I was on

22:16

the feet because back then you

22:18

went from the press box down

22:20

to the field for the last

22:22

three minutes of a game because

22:24

then you could go into the locker room from there.

22:26

So I was actually on the field with

22:29

Mike Silver and my friend Liz Matthews for

22:31

Beastquake. And Marshawn Lynch

22:33

could not have gotten out of that locker

22:35

room any more quickly after Beastquake, which most

22:37

players would have been like holding court for

22:39

hours. Right. Just probably so after a

22:41

play like that. But if Marshawn

22:43

screwed up, he'd sit there chapter and verse for 30

22:46

minutes. I did this, I did that. So

22:48

that kind of accountability. I

22:52

actually, I started, it

22:54

was Evan Mathis who I think was

22:56

with the Eagles at the time, offensive

22:58

guard. And I put up a piece

23:01

of play on what was

23:03

then Twitter. I'm not

23:05

sure what the, it was either the

23:07

Eagles or the Jaguars. I'm not sure what they were

23:09

doing at this point in time. And

23:11

Evan Mathis actually messaged me on Twitter and

23:13

said, I'll tell you exactly what happened. It

23:15

was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

23:18

I was at an SI summit in New York City. It was actually

23:20

on the in the cab, going back

23:23

to JFK to take the flight home to Seattle.

23:25

And I'm messaging Evan Mathis back and forth and

23:27

forth and saying, you know what? We've

23:29

been talking for 10 minutes. This is a great article.

23:31

Can I send you three plays? You just tell me

23:33

what the hell is actually going on because I don't

23:35

know. And he said, yeah, sure. So

23:37

it was a player reaching out to me, which

23:39

was cool saying that he wasn't, you know, he

23:42

wasn't a jerk about it. He wasn't saying you

23:44

idiot. He was saying, I will tell you exactly

23:46

what happened. So what I

23:48

try to do with stuff like that, whether

23:50

it's, you know, BONIX or Bennett or Sherm

23:52

or whoever, I want

23:55

I want to know because it

23:57

makes my work better or more informed.

23:59

the reader or the viewer to know as well,

24:02

because we all, the famous

24:04

Jim Morro quote, you think you know, but you don't

24:06

know, and you never will, was in direct response to

24:08

a reporter asking him, well, why did you do this

24:10

in the game? Or was like, it's not what we

24:13

did. And you're not going to know unless

24:15

you talk to the player or the coordinator of the coach. So

24:18

that's how that's created. So, you know,

24:20

it's just that's another thing is just about being

24:22

open in the universe. And, you

24:24

know, something comes in, well, what can

24:26

I do with this? Hmm. That's pretty cool. Yeah.

24:29

And humble, you know, football

24:32

will make you humble. Yeah.

24:34

Football will make your ass humble pretty quickly.

24:36

Yeah. And that's in your right at every

24:38

level, you know, you have to deal with

24:40

failure every day, no matter who, how great

24:42

you are. You constantly have to deal with

24:45

failure. And yeah, when someone

24:47

wants to educate you, you should be open

24:49

to that opportunity. So I'm going to ask

24:52

you to educate me. We talked, we talked

24:54

about rookie, especially defensive

24:56

backs. What

24:58

about rookie coaches? When I say what rookie coach

25:00

has you excited? It can be a coordinator. I

25:03

know you've posted, I think it was Coach Dan

25:05

Casey, the quote with Dick LeBeau. Oh, if you're

25:07

going to, you want to, you want to win

25:09

me over. Get Dick LeBeau

25:11

on my timeline about offensive,

25:13

I mean, assistant coaches. You know,

25:16

you want to learn, ask the

25:18

assistant coach. So it could be an assistant coach, could be a

25:21

head coach, but a coaching hire that got your attention this off

25:23

season. Oh God. The guy

25:25

for Denard Wilson and the Titans.

25:27

Their new defensive coordinator. The

25:30

Titans went all in on press. They

25:32

traded for luxurious

25:35

league. He made a big ass contract, which he

25:37

has more than certainly earned. They

25:40

signed Chidobi Uzzier, a former Cowboys and

25:42

Bengals guy who not really good off

25:44

corner, the boy in press. He's one

25:46

of those. They played the

25:48

second fewest snaps of press last year behind

25:50

a little Panthers and their

25:52

defense really suffered for it. And in today's

25:54

NFL, where there's so much quick game, it's

25:56

like, get

25:59

there. So how do

26:01

you you have to disrupt the receivers with press? That's

26:05

one if you can maybe throw a couple of more

26:07

names that I haven't really thought about new coaches in

26:09

like three months Oh, yeah, right I

26:11

mean, no that's a I love just isn't

26:14

aside from you saying that is it just

26:16

shows like it's the off season When there

26:18

aren't being games played there's still these segments

26:20

to the NFL calendar where you have to

26:22

go You're in deep dives But

26:24

like for you New head coaches

26:27

or position coaches literally since the combine when

26:29

I could talk to them, right? Right.

26:31

Well, I'll tell you what I'm gonna I'm gonna

26:33

bring one up but I'm gonna tie it into

26:35

into a piece you did more recently and you're

26:37

and you're and You're prolific

26:39

and I love like I almost

26:41

won. It's almost like reverse engineering. How can you do what

26:43

Doug Farr does? Well, you're completely immersed in something and then

26:45

you move on to the next thing And

26:48

I know it was about people ask me by the way,

26:50

I get you know Like at

26:53

the combine I do these you know

26:55

seminars with other people like SMWW with

26:57

winning Liz Lashberg Who I love and

26:59

just awesome people and you

27:01

know Young kids. What

27:03

do you what's the most important thing you can

27:05

tell me finish? Finish

27:08

I don't I don't care how good you are finish

27:10

get on to the next thing. Yeah.

27:13

Yeah I just think it out of the next

27:15

thing don't have I mean, I got a whiteboard

27:17

over here I cross I'll have five or six

27:19

ideas and I cross them out and then once

27:21

we're all crossed out I'll erase it and start

27:23

over but yeah finish I mean, yeah,

27:25

you don't want a clump of ideas in your

27:27

head that never get out there because that's you

27:31

know Maybe five percent of

27:33

writers can do it for a living

27:35

among all people who write and mostly

27:37

it's because the other guys don't finish

27:39

The other people. Yes. Yeah. No, absolutely.

27:41

I had something With

27:44

Mark Felletti and I when we were doing

27:46

internet short-term video 17

27:48

years ago, I called it the 85% principle which like

27:50

what's what it's 80 What's 85%

27:53

Good enough for you? It's probably good enough for

27:55

everybody. That's part of finishing. That's part of finishing

27:57

is being able to step back. Okay, this is

27:59

part. I need to be myself up

28:01

to do something else a come free myself up that

28:04

he was question cause you did your underrated list

28:06

and that's always a fun exercise. Oh yeah. Because.

28:08

There's two elements to others

28:10

who who's good but also

28:13

a gay gene? What

28:15

Is the public Or the football

28:17

public? Think. About this player.

28:19

In. What I found really fascinating but

28:21

your list dog is if you quarterbacks

28:23

baker make it bigger. Me too I'm

28:26

Tina Smith or both of whom have

28:28

new offensive coordinators in Chino. The oh

28:30

the Chino one would have been a

28:32

lot more interesting, can grow got say

28:34

pleased with your own spread like with

28:36

down with the Seahawks and yet books

28:39

He got careers that of eight differ

28:41

Ravens last year and that defense the

28:43

cylinders because the pressure comes from everywhere

28:45

and nowhere all at once. And

28:48

they have sony new guys. They

28:50

got their Murphy from Texas they

28:52

drafted too. aggressive. Auburn

28:55

quarterbacks. And there's sort of

28:57

still putting it all together but that that's

28:59

one mcdonald and defensive line grub on off

29:01

as. I. Read: Judo

29:03

or Michael Page Junior. That

29:06

know feeling for to. By the way

29:08

to Penn explaining it up the preseason

29:10

it would atlanta losing their minds. Rachel

29:12

Carson for three first round picks on.

29:16

Panics. Attempt at one hundred and seventeen

29:18

passes last year of over of twenty or

29:20

more area. it's that was thirty more than

29:22

any other. And see a quarterback? What is

29:25

your stuff if people aren't east so that

29:27

that's what. Interesting thing is that to Britain.

29:29

And. Yeah. And is that it would

29:31

you know was one of them and up.

29:34

He has a new offensive coordinator and then

29:36

Baker Mayfield was the other and that higher

29:38

with Liam Cohen. What mack next hour mean

29:40

for that? Who is who overs saw. His.

29:43

Resurgence with Rams at the end of season

29:45

New Years ago and and Cohen specifically said

29:47

Mayfield was one reasons he took the job

29:49

was to work with Baker Mayfield. For what

29:51

I want to ask, use a more general

29:53

question is what do you think it means

29:56

because it seems like no quarterback could possibly

29:58

be under rated cause they're so our interview

30:00

you. It's not possible to what do you

30:02

think it means that Baker Mayfield into you

30:04

know, Smith are actually. Under rated.

30:07

Yeah, most quarterbacks are you rated are

30:09

overrated. A. Primer quarterbacks

30:12

are overrated. The not? because right? the

30:14

nature of the beast I'm in. Arabic

30:18

Daniel Jones going parts and and his

30:20

draft again that's the run tape and

30:22

and lot that that an egg Daniel

30:24

Jos just the way it is. It

30:27

hot. Senior Bowl did that on

30:30

the little nurses as as Daves

30:32

Edelman's want an her I'm well

30:34

aware put it for. Both.

30:37

Geno Smith and determine if you're what do you

30:39

think? these guys are underrated, not depend largely on

30:41

what do you think? They've hit their ceilings and

30:43

there's nowhere to go but down. I

30:46

think and sniffs case. Not.

30:48

The same Aldrin's often

30:50

Scottsdale. I'll. Dig that was the

30:52

case. I just you know their the past

30:55

prose an issue. Leader. In the

30:57

season they had some injuries with their two

30:59

young tackles so didn't quite players was it

31:01

had the year before. Ah,

31:05

Amp When in what did I did

31:07

Josh Allen, Peace and when he was

31:10

talking about job or a specifically there

31:12

was a touchdown pass. Two dogs in

31:14

case against the Steelers in a while.

31:16

code name were Still or Uncover Sex

31:18

and they had studied. Pittsburgh.

31:21

To high works the whole week

31:23

and before that. The.

31:26

Headset one off in knob. God.

31:29

Ellen's helmet. Brady said josh we have the

31:32

exact look and Josh interrupted him and said

31:34

yeah I know we do. Let's go and

31:36

so that sort of thing and you can

31:38

see grub saying we're just going to maximize

31:40

Would you know? does I'm not coming in

31:43

or do some new huge deal. On.

31:46

but you know sniff obviously had a rough

31:48

start his career in a lot of ways

31:50

no one expected what happened i think the

31:52

same isn't true of mayfield i've been a

31:55

baker stan since his college days i think

31:57

he's much better than people give them credit

31:59

for He's a better teammate. He's a better

32:01

person. He's a better passer. Um,

32:04

Dave callous last year gave him a lot of

32:06

play action, 12 personnel, which really worked

32:08

well for him. And when a

32:10

guy like, he was probably going to be a

32:12

head coach the next three or three years says, I took this

32:14

job specifically because I

32:16

want to work with Baker again, that

32:19

should tell you something. So

32:21

I think if you're an underrated quarterback, it's

32:23

probably because you've had some difficulties in your

32:25

career and people haven't quite

32:27

gotten onto the fact that you're more than

32:29

an alleged one year wonder, or you

32:32

had the perfect scheme and

32:34

you're not really transcendent of that and,

32:36

and whatever, but in both

32:38

of those cases, I thought it was, you know,

32:41

those, those biographical

32:44

qualities led to an underrated status in

32:46

my mind. Yeah. Like

32:49

you said earlier about being

32:51

aware when you're watching tape, you can't,

32:54

um, you have, you

32:56

have to turn the page from something that happened and

32:58

be open to the next thing that's going to happen.

33:00

And instead of anything, you have to be like water.

33:04

When you're watching tape, man, you better be like

33:06

water. You can't go in thinking anything. Right. And

33:09

obviously with Baker

33:11

and Gino with the majority

33:13

of people or large number of people were thinking

33:15

about what happened previously in their career, instead of

33:18

looking at what's happening now, and maybe what is

33:20

coming. Uh, also I

33:22

want to tell you, I want to congratulate you

33:24

as a Western Pennsylvania born and bred Steelers fan.

33:26

You got the Steelers pick, right? Alex

33:29

Highsmith carrying on the

33:31

great tradition of Steelers outside linebackers.

33:33

Oh, how many Steelers outside

33:35

linebackers? Yeah. I just did that show. Uh,

33:38

Thomas Emmerich, uh, those are great show where

33:40

you've watched. We go back and watch an

33:42

old game and just get nostalgic. It was

33:44

the Steelers Colts, uh, the

33:46

Steelers Colts AFC championship game. And that was,

33:48

um, Kevin Green and Greg Lloyd. And just

33:50

thinking about those two. And somebody posted something

33:53

about gray, like a Video

33:55

of Greg Lloyd the other day on Twitter,

33:57

and I said, you know, in today's NFL

33:59

with those multi gap looks. for that guy

34:01

with a business. And. Even. He.

34:04

Has freakish. Yeah. If

34:06

it was fun rooting for

34:08

him and I'd certainly bomb.

34:11

Whenever we think about these

34:13

games and think about that,

34:15

the players. ah and then

34:18

think about the the. Bloodlines

34:21

because it's it's it's it's just a

34:23

Steelers fan. Course the outside linebackers now

34:25

all the way to Tj Watt can

34:28

and L Fi Smith an herb it's

34:30

gonna be look like he's gonna be

34:32

a hit on a subpoena. Lloyd was

34:34

this way. James Harrison was us. Wait

34:37

you know it took a while but

34:39

it right it is. Gazidis Murderous specifically

34:41

designed a Cs and are you know?

34:44

I've had the distinct honor to talk

34:46

to Joe Greene for a very short

34:48

time is the the most. I.

34:52

Don't get starstruck. but I did. And

34:54

gallons, yeah, blame you for that. Banks

34:56

did the best defensive player of probably

34:58

ever seen in my life. Go back

35:01

and watches Football Life or the America's

35:03

Game was a seventy four years where

35:05

he and the defense one coach since

35:07

the start. For three we were at

35:09

an angle. Go. Watch that that

35:11

was like Aaron done little demolition

35:13

such. As a. Year.

35:16

The whole underrated thing and you know the

35:18

people in the in a fallacy will underrated

35:20

by who are whom. On.

35:23

It's just would I do it. You

35:25

know it's a buzzword. It's it's clichy

35:27

but I mean that's that's would have

35:29

to do. but it's really. My

35:33

perception of this players. Play.

35:36

Ability versus how much their talked about

35:39

that I might yet to level the

35:41

under, try to balances things out and.

35:44

elvis and name says that's really odd is

35:46

the out little justice in a little bit

35:48

of and and for our audiences and the

35:50

nice thing is i think going although back

35:53

to when you are football fighters were always

35:55

que reading our audience and that's all he

35:57

was doing work is true to you because

35:59

it you get the audience you're supposed to get. And

36:02

they're gonna want to hear who Doug thinks

36:04

I should be paying closer attention to because

36:07

he's actually better than his reputation. I wanted

36:09

to go back in touch on one thing

36:11

that you've mentioned about the

36:13

Bill Steelers playoff game. I

36:16

just latched back into Western Pennsylvania's

36:19

peak. I said Steelers. You

36:22

mentioned about how much time the

36:24

bill spent in preparation on the

36:27

Steelers two high safety looks. And

36:29

there's all kinds of different ways. I used

36:31

to like to tell people, I think Cecil coined

36:33

the term the non-playing season, that

36:36

the teams are still combatants. The franchises

36:38

are still combatants right now, but the

36:40

combatants aren't the players on the field

36:42

or the coaches doing game plans. It's

36:44

front offices, scouting departments, etc, etc, etc.

36:47

So it's always moving. I like to say the

36:49

play tectonics of the NFL are always in motion.

36:52

And there's all kinds of ways teams can get

36:54

edges. Better drafting, better, you

36:56

know, finding players that are better

36:58

fit, you know, continuity, like teams

37:00

that have succession plans for

37:03

coaches because, hey, if you're successful, you're going

37:05

to lose your coaches, etc, etc, etc, etc.

37:08

But one thing, and I think thanks

37:11

to coaches like Bill Belichick, we've seen this

37:13

and it kind of gets you in the

37:15

fantasy football mindset when you're preparing for just

37:17

this week and you're looking at just this

37:19

week's opponent. And there's coaches that

37:22

have been more rigid and they're just more

37:24

about, this is our system, this is what

37:26

we do. And then there are coaches like,

37:28

well, let's try to make something that is

37:30

more amorphous so we can attack the weakness

37:32

of the opponent, whatever that is, that week.

37:35

How important do you think that is? Like that

37:37

edge? Like how much can a team make

37:39

up by using

37:41

that prep to focus on the right

37:43

things, anticipate the right things, understand how

37:46

when you put these two personnel groups

37:49

together against each other, these are going to be

37:51

where the pressure points are. How important is that

37:53

in today's NFL? Well,

37:55

being specific to that play and

37:57

Josh didn't get into the space.

38:00

The looks of it. but I was able

38:02

to just gleaned from what he said. That.

38:05

The Steelers that love that cover six

38:07

lip read: take their deep Cities was

38:09

Fitzpatrick and Eric Rowe to the numbers.

38:12

Which. And the the Bills or an

38:14

empty and they're running are mirrored crossers

38:17

to either side. kick a just one

38:19

of the middle. Myles Jack good athlete

38:21

player he com adult and kincaid through

38:23

the or the field but they knew

38:26

they knew they had a tendency. I

38:28

have never understood coaches who say. We're.

38:31

Going to run my system. No.

38:33

Matter what, I've never understood that that

38:35

utter lack of flexibility, especially in today's

38:37

Nfl were everything is so Murphy says

38:40

your word. On. You

38:42

know, just last five years and Regen I talk

38:44

about this all the time. The camera switches pre

38:46

and post snap. Your. Reload France The

38:48

stamps, the different personnel groupings. This is

38:50

a difference in office. Ah, I read

38:52

a whole book about the kept the

38:55

punches, the conference. this the genius right

38:57

throughout history so I have never understood

38:59

coaches who say we're going to do

39:01

my thing and if the players can't

39:03

do it, it's their fault. And

39:05

now it's it for Moon has never thought

39:08

that way. I mean. He.

39:10

He when he when the and of

39:12

those digging he will zag and this

39:14

goes back to. You. Know I

39:16

mean the the Raiders in the sixties, the

39:19

F L readers when the first the route

39:21

er den bird well they'd bring him in

39:23

his kind of our in our fifth nana

39:26

on top of a in the front. And

39:29

that got into the dolphins in the fifty

39:31

three defense with the bill are smarter which

39:33

led to other things but dollar check when

39:35

you got the job of doing one you

39:38

know if it was a for three it

39:40

was the three four league at that point

39:42

so he wanted for three guys and a

39:44

free. years later everyone flip because fellowship was

39:46

so successful with it so that those exact

39:48

okay I see what you're doing Other back

39:50

to this and for one thing is it

39:53

gives you see that again. But and don't

39:55

you agree with scissors. Or. if

39:57

i switch i get more of the players

39:59

i in the draft and

40:01

in free agency because all of a

40:03

sudden this guy who I think is

40:06

amazing is too short to be your

40:08

3-4 end. There was

40:10

at least one team in 2014 that thought

40:12

that Aaron Donald was too short to be a 3-4

40:14

end. Yeah.

40:17

I think at that point you might want to

40:19

alter your fronts a little bit and see what

40:22

Aaron Donald can do to help you. But

40:25

to answer questions generally I've never understood

40:27

that point of philosophy. I

40:30

imagine someone like that, Bob's,

40:33

like well I'm gonna do it my way. How long did you

40:36

think you'd lasted Apple? Back when Apple

40:38

was truly the creative, we can

40:40

say what we wanted about Steve Jobs, but

40:43

as a creative wellspring that

40:45

just dominated the space for so

40:47

long, how long do you think

40:49

a person like that with that mentality would last at

40:52

Apple? Five seconds? Maybe

40:54

rice. Any business,

40:56

I do not understand that

40:58

philosophy of you're

41:01

not that good. I don't care

41:03

who you're not, your scheme is not that

41:05

good. Right, right. This is the National Bleeping

41:07

Football League. Everyone's gonna figure it out. It's

41:09

like you know if you

41:11

give Tony Gwynn enough 150 mile an

41:13

hour fastballs, he'll time it. Yeah.

41:16

Hitting dingers. Yeah. Where's

41:18

your circle change? You know

41:22

growing up watching Randy Johnson in the kingdom and

41:25

that slider, it was

41:27

the slider that killed people. No left,

41:29

you did it. So where's your slider? How

41:33

are you developing your pitches? We talked

41:35

about like setting up questions. Well

41:37

how are you setting up your pitches? How are you

41:39

setting up your you know your

41:41

schematic attacks? And if you're

41:44

only doing the one thing and insisting that

41:46

well it's the player's fault, well now you

41:48

just lost the whole team. Now you're just

41:50

an idiot. And I've never understood that philosophy

41:53

in any business, certainly not football. I don't

41:55

get it. And I

41:57

think today in NFL those people are

42:00

are fewer and fewer

42:02

because of all the schematic

42:04

changes and advancements and just

42:06

explosions. Yeah, they're exposed really

42:08

quickly. They get exposed. But

42:10

you're right. Matt Waldman, I

42:13

mentioned it twice now in this episode. I

42:15

always mention when we saw this episode, we'll

42:17

say whatever bad workplace you've been at, there's

42:19

probably an NFL team that still functions like

42:21

that. So, we are... Urban Meyer. Yeah, right.

42:23

My gosh. I mean, it was just as

42:26

bad as everybody could have expected. But

42:28

I've always liked to say the worst thing an NFL

42:30

team can be is predictable. This

42:32

is kind of going back to the Steelers called, why

42:34

did the Steelers always underachieve in the playoffs under Bill

42:36

Coward? But there's

42:39

so much good stuff here. I wanted to just get one

42:41

last thing from your underrated list just to give one

42:44

little nugget something out there,

42:46

a crumb for fantasy football, even though... And by

42:48

the way, I feel like Doug Verardi, no introduction.

42:51

I should have been on this show a long

42:53

time ago because... But I just

42:55

fear you're doing real football work with real

42:57

football players. You're not at the children's table

42:59

with us, so I'm glad that you made

43:01

time. It's great though. One

43:03

of your underrated players, and I think this is

43:06

absolutely on point, was Marquis Brown. And Cecil and

43:08

I talked about it this morning on the show.

43:10

Is it important that Marquis Brown was sitting with

43:12

Patrick Mahomes? He said, yes, yes,

43:14

that's important. In fantasy football right now,

43:17

Xavier Wervey and Marquis Brown and Roshi Reiser

43:19

are all about the same within 10 picks

43:22

of each other. So, it's kind of like

43:24

which chief's receiver do

43:26

you think is going to be that guy? I'm guessing

43:28

you'd say it's Marquis Brown. Well,

43:31

it depends. I think Xavier Wervey is

43:33

a better... He's a more... And it's

43:35

funny with fast guys, we all automatically

43:37

assume, oh, you can't run routes. And

43:40

then you watch Jaylen Watto, who just got the mega

43:42

deal today. He's really

43:44

actually nuanced on corners and gigs and stuff

43:46

like that. I

43:49

think, well, you

43:51

go back to the too high thing that Josh

43:53

Allen deduced from the Steelers and Joe Brady deduced

43:56

from the Steelers, where they, you know,

43:58

they fan... their

44:00

safeties out to the numbers. Well, what

44:02

teams are doing is a chief for the last

44:04

two years, just beating them over the

44:06

head with too high. So Andy Reid's

44:08

sick of it. Patrick Mahomes is sick of it.

44:11

Nat Nagy is sick of it. Um,

44:14

you have to have those vertical guys.

44:16

And today, you know,

44:19

there's less cover three because everyone now has

44:21

their three beaters. There's a lot more quarters because

44:24

it is more. It's a defense you

44:26

can do more out of and

44:28

it's hard when you have sort of a hood over

44:30

the whole thing it with

44:33

those four defensive backs. Well, like, where's

44:35

our opening? Now the opening

44:37

is speed. It's just pure frickin speed. So

44:39

if you have Marquis Brown and Xavier, really

44:42

on the same side, um, or,

44:46

you know, I would imagine they would hope that they

44:48

could deploy those two guys as the dolphins deploy

44:50

Hill and model in that, you

44:52

know, we're usually there on different

44:56

sides of the formation. But if they're on the

44:58

same side, they're on the crossers. I mean, God

45:00

help you. So yeah. And Marquis Brown,

45:02

a lot of underrated guys, and I always make

45:04

this point when I do underrated lists, they're underrated

45:06

for different reasons. You know, you're in the wrong

45:09

offense, you had injuries or maybe it took three

45:11

years for you to stop being a moron and

45:13

the light goes on and I get it. Um,

45:16

I mean, I don't want to talk about what I would have been

45:18

like at 22 with $5 million. Jesus. Oh, you know, it

45:24

takes however long it takes for whatever reason it

45:26

takes. But yeah, I think I think

45:28

Marquis Brown is interesting that offense. And I

45:31

think the chiefs clearly

45:33

trading up to get Xavier worthy, who's

45:35

not just track that these football fast,

45:38

the chiefs who have won five

45:41

Super Bowls are sick and tired

45:43

of you throwing all this too high at them.

45:45

So now they're going to punch back. This

45:48

is now their counter punch. And

45:50

Andy, it's what he does

45:52

is a lot more spready, spread ish

45:54

than it used to be. But he used to

45:56

run with the eagles and early with the cheese.

45:58

What I call West Coast. vertical and there

46:00

was always that Deshaun Watson guy, you

46:03

know, to take the top off to

46:05

allow all the underneath stuff to

46:07

happen. This could also extend

46:09

Travis Kelcey's career a couple more years

46:11

because now you have that vertical stuff

46:14

and the underneath stuff is there and

46:16

it was bad enough when Kelcey could

46:19

just physically own you over the

46:21

middle. Now you have to take

46:23

one of those defenders that you're putting

46:26

on Kelcey. Well, okay,

46:28

now we can't run as much

46:30

big knick because they have two fast guys. You

46:33

watch, I think if you want to

46:35

know how defenses play the Chiefs, watch

46:37

how defenses play the Dolphins last year

46:39

and I think in

46:41

an idealized version of this offense

46:43

from leading the homes, that's

46:46

what it could look like and isn't that

46:48

scary. Yeah, going all the

46:50

way back to the original question, what's exciting

46:52

about this upcoming season? That's a big one.

46:56

And it may be exciting with a

46:58

chaser of existential dread if you're any

47:00

if you're a fan of any AEC

47:02

team other than the Chiefs, but certainly.

47:04

I did bring up my offense, my

47:07

best scheme fits for offense, so I'll just,

47:09

Jaden Gantas the commander is obviously both next

47:11

to the Broncos. After Greg

47:13

and I watched tape with Nix, I was

47:16

talking to Greg on the phone, I think the next

47:18

week and I said, man, Sean Peyton's going to take

47:21

him because he's just so smart. He just

47:23

gets it. And then they got Troy Franklin, who

47:25

was his best receiver. Blake

47:27

Corbin to the Rams, best gap scheme

47:29

runner in the NCAA last year. The

47:32

Rams, kind of quiet as

47:35

kept, became a gap scheme power running team

47:37

last season after years and years and years

47:39

of inside and outside zone. Jonathan

47:42

Brooks of Texas to the

47:44

Panthers, Dave Kanellis has already said, this is

47:46

the guy we want to run. He wants

47:48

a complete back who can do it all. And

47:52

I think that's

47:54

what Brooks does and Kanellis has already mentioned, we're

47:56

going to use him as an outside receiver and

47:58

empty, and all these things. Lad

48:01

McConkie and Kamani Vidal running back from

48:03

Troy to the Chargers Brian

48:06

Thomas jr. To the Jaguars. That's another interesting

48:08

one and you know, obviously Xavier worthy to

48:10

the Chiefs But yeah,

48:12

that's you know Going back to what I like to

48:14

do is I like to sit around and imagine these

48:16

things and walk tape and look at metrics And go.

48:19

Oh, this could work. This could be interesting, you know

48:22

Right. Yeah, I put Nico Collins on my

48:24

underrated team. Yeah, I've days before you got

48:27

the New Deal Yeah Yeah

48:41

Well and we're basically to the

48:43

author rails part we can talk about just about anything

48:45

I do want to say For

48:48

folks that don't know again because you've

48:50

mentioned it your book the genius of

48:52

desperation The schematic innovations

48:54

that made the modern NFL a fourth

48:56

by Lewis Riddick to wow very

48:59

very very Grateful to Lewis

49:02

for doing that but as you were

49:04

describing earlier in the show, you know, there's

49:06

this the punch counter punch or I The

49:10

cyclical nature of the NFL, right?

49:13

Yeah, and the

49:15

idea it's a copycat league, but because

49:17

it's a copycat league there's gonna be

49:19

this ebb and flow Well,

49:22

everyone's gonna need to do this because it works and

49:24

then like you said people gonna figure it out It's

49:26

not gonna work anymore And then they're gonna adjust this

49:28

to adjust to the adjustment that shut down the original

49:30

innovation And the book details

49:33

all that and there I think was a

49:35

Chuck Klosterman piece Why

49:37

people will say like why football, you know, why

49:39

spend as much time on just football? And

49:42

Chuck Klosterman wrote a piece back when ESPN

49:44

page to a hunter Thompson wrote for page

49:47

two It

49:49

was actually good The

49:52

late for Ralph Wiley man one of my favorite

49:54

sports writers of all time and

49:56

you know Bill Simmons and Ralph Wiley

49:59

did I think

50:01

it was something about basketball. They did a back

50:03

and forth fight, Ellen just published it back when

50:05

that wasn't a thing. And at

50:07

the time, I mean, people

50:10

can say whatever they want about Bill Simmons, most

50:12

of us who came up in untraditional formats would

50:14

not have been able to do so without what

50:16

Bill Simmons did. So, yes. Yes, bringing you down

50:19

there. That was just, you know,

50:21

talk about that was like watching a really

50:24

high speed tennis match. I miss page two. I know

50:26

people who work there and I miss page two. Yeah.

50:30

You know, even Grantland, you know, some of the

50:32

stuff from the early around the time that we

50:34

were starting to do what we were doing at

50:36

football guys and at football outsiders. And you know,

50:38

I'll say this and then you can just react

50:40

to it. I mean, I always like to say

50:42

to people you like analytics or

50:44

PFF or what have you. I

50:46

feel like football outsiders kicked down that door. I

50:49

guess I was asking, like, what do you think

50:51

of like how analytics is used in conversation, how

50:54

widespread the understanding is or maybe lack

50:56

of understanding or belief you have understanding.

50:59

But you don't as somebody who was

51:01

there and some of these original conversations

51:03

about DBOA and some of these measures

51:05

that have become the template for downstream.

51:07

They have children and grandchildren and great grandchildren.

51:09

What do you think looking out at all

51:11

this? I was a huge Bill

51:13

James. I would buy the Bill James abstracts

51:16

in the late 80s when I was a kid and

51:18

just go through them. But I was like

51:20

football more than baseball. And when I

51:22

think I discovered FO in 2004, I

51:26

just flipped out like, oh my God. I'd

51:29

read Moneyball and that influenced me as much

51:31

as anything. And I'm like, oh

51:33

my God, this is Bill James and Michael Lewis, but

51:35

for football. And I reached out to Aaron and I

51:37

did some things on spec in 2005 and then became

51:39

staff in

51:44

2006. Aaron got me and

51:46

Bill Barnwell the same draft, which was pretty cool.

51:49

Yeah, I mean, the

51:52

football outsiders reach. Oh

51:54

God, the tree is in the tree. It's

51:56

amazing. It is really amazing. I'll promise to

51:59

Aaron on that. Yeah, yeah, me and

52:01

Billy and Mike 10 year and Andy Benoit

52:03

and on and on and on. Um, how

52:07

people talk about analytics and how they're used.

52:09

I did a thing maybe four or five

52:11

combines ago and you don't combine his round

52:13

Robert. You just get every NFL coach and

52:15

GM. And I asked

52:18

them what do analytics mean to you? And

52:21

the, the answers I got

52:23

were at times hilarious

52:27

net times inept. And at times

52:30

I know you know more than you're telling me, but you don't

52:32

want to tell me. Um,

52:35

people see analytics in 32 NFL

52:38

teams, 32 different ways times.

52:41

How many people in the building are actually using

52:43

them. Um, I

52:46

can speak to how I use them. I mean,

52:48

I, if I have

52:50

an article idea or sometimes

52:52

the article, I'll be watching tape. I did

52:55

a three-part thing on match coverage

52:57

in 2019 and it all came

52:59

from watching one play. We're got getting beaten

53:01

in the end zone. Um, I

53:03

think it was Isaiah Oliver against of the Falcons

53:06

against the Bengals. It might've been Higgins. I don't

53:08

remember the receiver. It might've been chase. Um,

53:11

they were in like country cover three in the

53:13

red zone and out poor

53:15

Oliver, this gun is ass scalded and

53:18

that one play turned

53:21

into a three-part. So I

53:23

mean, larger point of how people come

53:25

up with ideas. Sometimes tape will

53:27

tell me a lot of times metrics. I'll

53:29

wake up and you know, I'm an

53:31

early riser. I'll be in the office where

53:34

I'm now at 5 am with my coffee and

53:36

I'll go through, you know, F O and P

53:38

F F sports info solutions, some other stuff I

53:40

have and

53:42

I'll see something. I go, Oh, let's go down

53:44

the rabbit hole here. Let's see where that, yeah.

53:47

Um, in

53:49

analysis and I don't say scouting because I'm, I

53:51

don't make my living scouting. So I'm not going

53:54

to call myself a scout. I'm not a scout.

53:56

Uh, as an analyst, uh, probe, pro

53:59

and college. football analyst, a lot of what

54:01

I do is seeing a number,

54:03

a metric, a trend,

54:06

and the trend line is this.

54:08

What does that mean? All of a sudden, teams

54:11

are playing more quarters. What does that

54:13

mean? A lot of times, I'll just

54:15

go through lists of, I

54:17

want to see what teams are doing more of or less

54:19

of or what's the new thing. Then

54:23

I'll just try to match that up with

54:25

tape because even ... There's no way to

54:27

get around this. Any

54:29

charting service is going to be about 80% accurate. That's

54:33

great. PFF, they've done

54:36

so much in the last few years

54:38

with their charting where it's

54:40

on point. These

54:45

services that people use, you can understand why teams

54:48

use them too. I can't speak

54:50

to how teams use them. I know how I use

54:52

them as an analyst. Part

54:54

of what I do is trying to

54:57

project college players

54:59

to the NFL or NFL players to

55:01

their new systems or whatever. It

55:06

could start with tape and then it goes to metrics. It

55:08

could start with metrics and then it goes to tape. The

55:10

two always have to be married. I

55:12

can't do one or the other. I'm not doing the

55:15

best I can for myself or the reader is going

55:17

to be under informed and I'm going to look like

55:20

an idiot. Nobody wins.

55:23

I obviously

55:26

never viewed it as a bad

55:28

word. When I hear announcers talk

55:30

about analytics on TV broadcasts, if

55:32

I drank a lot, I would

55:38

sort of ... That's antagonizing.

55:42

You hope that they know more than they're saying

55:44

but they're not coaches or GMs. They don't have

55:47

to hide stuff. Their job makes a reveal if

55:49

you're an announcer. If you actually believe this about

55:51

analytics, I don't

55:54

have to tell you, but how I use it is

55:56

part of the holistic whole thing. I

55:59

don't step away from it. anything from anything else I want to

56:01

get it all in there. Yeah well I like that you've

56:04

it's like life like you have to treat it as the whole

56:07

okay a couple quick hitters as we got just like three

56:09

minutes okay quick hitters because I know

56:11

you're very passionate about music just like me

56:13

oh yeah down here in New Orleans you

56:15

know Johnson Claire. Eight guitars over there. Oh

56:18

wow we just were mourning

56:21

the transition joining the ancestors of Johnson Claire now you

56:23

got kick out the jams in in

56:26

your profile. He's beloved down

56:28

here in New Orleans Johnson Claire.

56:30

What's one album that you

56:33

can cheat and name more than one if you

56:35

want. What's one album that everybody listening watching right

56:37

now should make sure they've heard. Well

56:43

let's start with kick out the jams by the end. Sure.

56:46

The ultra

56:48

rare live debut album how often

56:50

does that happen? Yeah. Why

56:53

is that album important to you? Why is that album important?

56:57

As someone who's highly interested in politics they

57:01

were obviously highly political but

57:04

really it was the reach and the stretch

57:06

and the influence. God talk about underrated. I

57:08

don't know how many copies

57:10

that album even sold. I

57:13

think so there's probably

57:15

for every one person who's heard the

57:17

MC5 there's probably 50 who have heard

57:19

of them but not heard them. Right.

57:22

Kick out the jams start with Rambling

57:24

Rose then go to kick out the jams and

57:26

just experience the whole thing. When

57:29

Lemmy started Motorhead okay he left

57:31

Hawkwind or was kicked out of

57:33

Hawkwind the

57:35

one thing he wanted was to be like the MC5.

57:39

If it's good enough for Lemmy it's good enough for

57:41

us. Yeah it should be. I'm

57:43

thinking of like you know formative

57:45

albums I can't think of one that was

57:48

too much more formative than that and you

57:50

know RIP Wayne Kramer who

57:52

we recently lost his role. Yeah yeah

57:55

yeah that that's the band that I just I

57:57

feel very very

57:59

strong. It's only about like, I think

58:01

everyone's heard of them, whether it's reading

58:04

about John Sinclair or, you know,

58:07

whoever's written about them or Jennifer Aniston

58:09

wearing the MC5 t-shirt and friends, that's

58:11

probably how most people know the MC5,

58:14

which however you get there, you get there. But

58:16

if I had one, you'd probably get that. And

58:18

then now,

58:21

like the one you maybe haven't

58:23

heard, because if I'm talking about

58:25

Zeppelin or The Who or The Beatles or whatever, but

58:28

yeah, Kick Out the Jams by the MC5. That

58:30

would be the one. That's a good one. And my

58:33

good friend, Uriah Zane Hunt, who started a Detroit

58:35

style pizza chain. Well, it wasn't a chain when

58:38

he started it. It was just a trailer. He

58:41

got to meet Wayne Kramer. And Detroit, it's

58:43

like, you know, MC5, Detroit, all this is

58:45

one conversation. It was like one of the

58:47

things about being starstruck. So we're

58:49

counting down. Tiesel told me never go after an hour. But I want

58:51

to get this in there real quick. Like you have like 15 or

58:54

30 seconds to answer this, which might be unfair.

58:56

You've mentioned Seattle so many times. What

58:58

like how Seattle made

59:01

you the person you are today? Well,

59:03

I would I it's funny because I

59:06

started being a credential guy. I got

59:08

to watch the LOB grow up. I'm

59:10

a little older. I started working at

59:12

Tower Records in Bellevue, Washington, which is

59:14

just outside of Seattle in 1990. Yeah,

59:19

I went to the Nevermind Record Release Party. Yeah,

59:23

it's not Pearl Jam second gig ever.

59:26

I did happen to two times

59:28

in my life. I have happened to

59:30

be there in Seattle when this major

59:33

universal thing was formed and I got to

59:35

watch it all. Seattle

59:39

is a very. It's

59:43

a very aware place. It's

59:46

a very politically active place. I live in

59:48

West Seattle now, which is really artistic, really,

59:52

and I didn't I didn't know much about West

59:54

Seattle until I met Laura, my wife. We've been

59:57

there for seven years and married for four. I've

1:00:00

been in West Seattle for years and I started spending more time with

1:00:02

it. I was like, why the hell was it? Why

1:00:04

wasn't I here the whole time? How

1:00:08

has it made, I mean, I've been here since 85. It's

1:00:15

an introverted place until people get to know you

1:00:17

and then they'll just, they'll

1:00:19

do anything for you. How

1:00:22

has it made me the person I am? I think I'm, I

1:00:25

think I feel free to be creative

1:00:28

and different and one off and rebellious

1:00:30

in my own way because I live

1:00:32

here. If I could summarize it. Yeah.

1:00:35

A good way. It's a good place

1:00:37

to be whoever you want to be.

1:00:39

Yeah. With, with a

1:00:42

limited number of negative ramifications in a world

1:00:44

where being who you want to be is

1:00:46

not really. Right.

1:00:49

I think New Orleans is very similar conformance.

1:00:51

Oh, I tell you. I

1:00:53

went, the first time I went to New Orleans was

1:00:55

for Super Bowl 47 and within three hours I was

1:00:57

like, man, I could move here. And

1:01:00

it wasn't anything else. It

1:01:02

was people and the

1:01:04

little brass band in the French market

1:01:06

on Saturday morning. I get emotional just

1:01:08

thinking about it. Yeah.

1:01:11

Very special place. I'm looking very

1:01:13

much forward to the next

1:01:15

Super Bowl week. And another one. Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:18

Come on by. Although Chris Allen already called

1:01:20

our vacation rental that we run next door

1:01:22

to our place. So yeah, sorry, it's Chris's

1:01:24

but no, we

1:01:27

go over in part because this is the important stuff.

1:01:29

And I think if there's

1:01:31

one thing to take away there, we're all richer that

1:01:33

Doug and so many people like Doug have been emboldened

1:01:35

to become just who they are. And we all will

1:01:38

make the world richer if we do that. We want

1:01:40

to make it richer for you folks because you're the

1:01:42

best audience to serve. Always. We love

1:01:44

you because you're so. Get

1:01:46

a record player start record because

1:01:49

the rich. Marry

1:01:52

music back to rich. And

1:01:54

whenever you take your record out and

1:01:56

handle it very gently because it's a precious

1:01:59

thing. and put it on the record

1:02:01

and the sound of the needle going on the record. We

1:02:03

all know what that means, how that prompts you, and how

1:02:05

you remember it. It's a

1:02:07

moment in your life when you slow down. And

1:02:09

you make yourself ready to receive something. Ahh!

1:02:14

I made a marshal! I love you. So

1:02:18

the King's new lemonade lineup is

1:02:20

here. Name and a lemonade The

1:02:23

Smoothie King Way try strawberry. Guava

1:02:25

Lemonade ask refresher over ice

1:02:27

a power up in it

1:02:29

can energize, or a blueberry

1:02:31

lemonade smoothie lead it up

1:02:34

being. Made with

1:02:36

real fruit. Real juice for a

1:02:38

real sipping good summer. Yeah yeah,

1:02:40

Data is no Smoothie Kings New

1:02:43

lemonade lineup of for a limited

1:02:45

time. Who. Stars Day.