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0:54

For Rhett McKay here and welcome to another

0:56

edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. Jim

1:15

VandeHei didn't have an auspicious start in life.

1:17

His high school guidance counselor told him he

1:19

wasn't cut out for college, and he went

1:22

on to confirm her assessment, getting a 1.4

1:24

GPA at the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh and

1:26

spending more time drinking beer than planning his

1:28

career. Eventually though, Jim turned

1:30

things around for himself, going on to

1:32

co-found two of the biggest modern media

1:34

outlets, Politico and Axios. Jim shares how

1:36

he started moving up the rungs of

1:38

success and building a better life for

1:40

himself in his new book, Just the Good

1:42

Stuff. No BS secrets to success no matter

1:44

what life throws at you. Today

1:47

on the show, Jim shares the real world lessons he's

1:49

learned in his career. We discuss

1:51

the importance of matching passion to opportunity, making

1:53

your own luck, surrounding yourself with the

1:55

right people, keeping the buckets of your happiness

1:58

matrix filled, understanding between

2:00

wartime and peacetime leadership, harnessing the energy

2:02

of healthy revenge, and more. After

2:05

the show's over, check out our show

2:07

notes at awim.is.goodstuff. Jim

2:19

VandeHei, welcome to the show. Great

2:21

to be here, thanks for having me.

2:24

So you are a journalist, and you're

2:26

also the co-founder of Politico and also

2:28

Axios. But you got a new

2:30

book out called Just the Good Stuff,

2:32

and it's an advice book. An advice

2:34

book about family, career, and life in

2:36

general. So why did a

2:38

journalist and media operator decide to

2:40

write a life advice book? Yeah,

2:44

I never thought I would. But

2:46

I've started and I've run two big

2:48

media companies, so Politico and Axios, as

2:50

you've mentioned. And I guess what's unique

2:52

is I was a journalist for most

2:54

of my life before becoming an entrepreneur.

2:56

So when I became an entrepreneur, became

2:58

a CEO, I took very close notes,

3:01

usually of all the things that I was screwing up

3:03

or that other people were screwing up around me to

3:05

learn how to do things better. And so

3:07

I kept these notes, I started writing a

3:10

column, the feedback to it was very positive.

3:12

And so I wrote this book, because if you met me when

3:15

I was 20, smoking camels and drinking

3:17

and getting crappy grades, you never would

3:19

have said, oh, that dude from Oshkosh

3:21

is gonna go start a couple companies,

3:24

interview presidents, write a book and I

3:27

think I have some obligation to sort of

3:29

give back, especially to people who might be thinking

3:31

about career changes or thinking about how do they

3:33

make the next big move or how do they

3:35

navigate a difficult situation. So I hope people find

3:37

it as a really handy user's guide to life.

3:40

No, and the way you wrote it, the format,

3:42

it follows that Axios style. You get to the

3:44

point, it's nicely organized, it's easy to read, so

3:47

I really like that as well. And as

3:49

you said, you've had a lot of professional

3:51

success and personal success as well. But

3:53

you mentioned there, you started off life pretty mediocre

3:55

and you kind of admit that. Well, you admit that in

3:57

the book. You're like, I was kind of a screw up. Yeah.

4:00

So what were you like as a high school or

4:02

in college student? I mean,

4:04

I think I grew up in a

4:06

small town in Wisconsin. I was like a normal

4:08

small town, Wisconsin kid. Like I drank, I misbehaved.

4:10

I occasionally went to school. I got crappy grades,

4:13

you know, graduated the bottom third

4:15

of my high school class, could barely get into

4:17

college. Had to go to a two year college

4:19

to get into four year college, four years, took

4:21

me 5.5 years. At one point

4:23

I was on academic probation with a sterling 1.491

4:25

grade point average. So

4:28

it really wasn't until I found

4:30

journalism and politics and really got

4:32

excited about a potential path that

4:34

I really got my head out of my butt

4:36

and started thinking about like how to go get

4:39

a career and how to go do stuff that

4:41

I might be good at. And so, you know,

4:43

it took me a little while to get there,

4:45

but I moved out to DC, became a journalist,

4:47

turned out a lot of the things

4:49

that I did when I was misbehaving actually helped

4:51

me as a journalist. I used to gamble a

4:54

lot, play poker, teaches you how to deal with

4:56

people. I used to go to dive bars so

4:58

I could deal with people from any kind of

5:00

walk of life. And, you know, I was curious.

5:03

I love to ask questions, love to talk. And

5:05

those things worked awesome as a reporter. And in

5:07

Washington, where it was kind of a lot of

5:09

elite kids from Harvard and other hotshot schools, I

5:11

didn't know any better. So I just, you know,

5:14

kind of stirred up mischief, wrote stories and ended

5:16

up being pretty good at it. So

5:19

was that the thing that got you out of your

5:21

passive mode when you were a kid, or was this

5:23

finding something you were passionate about? A

5:25

hundred percent. Like the minute I found something that

5:27

like, Oh, I'm a good writer. I like politics

5:30

and I learned that I could get paid for it.

5:32

I became obsessed with it. And I think that's true

5:34

for most of us. Like the moment you can match

5:37

a passion with an opportunity, you're

5:39

going to be on fire naturally. The advice

5:41

I always give young people now or even

5:44

old people is do something you would do

5:46

for free. Like I love what I do.

5:48

I love writing. I love leading. I love

5:50

starting companies. I love covering presidents. I love

5:52

writing about AI. I would do this for

5:55

free if it weren't my job. And but

5:57

I get paid to do it. So when

5:59

you can do that. I think really magical things

6:01

can happen. And it doesn't just have to

6:03

be at work. It could be in a relationship

6:05

or personal hobbies that you have, but I

6:07

think that's the good stuff of life. How

6:10

did you discover politics and journalism? You

6:14

know, it's funny. I didn't even really

6:16

realize I was adding to politics until I was

6:18

like, I would come home, I'd go out to

6:20

a kegger and I would come home, you know,

6:22

drunk at two in the morning, and

6:24

I would sit and watch C-SPAN

6:26

hearings on the Agriculture Committee

6:29

or on a health bill. I

6:31

was just fascinated by it. I was fascinated

6:33

that I could watch this. I was fascinated

6:35

about how a bill became a law. I

6:37

was fascinated about how people use power, how

6:40

they communicate. And so that got me hooked

6:42

on politics. And then when I was trying

6:44

to figure out what to do, I figured out I

6:46

was a pretty good writer and I went to a

6:48

newspaper and asked them, hey, I know a lot about

6:50

sports. Could I ever be a sports reporter? I was

6:52

dumb enough to do that, having not even taken a

6:54

journalism class. And the guy I happened to go to

6:56

was nice enough to be humored by it. I'll give

6:58

you a writing test. And I did the writing test

7:01

and he's like, that's actually pretty good. I'll

7:03

give you a job. And so I covered high

7:05

school sports and it was kind of off to

7:07

the races from there. And I'd say most of

7:09

my career has been these kind of serendipitous things

7:12

that are either courage or luck

7:14

or some mix of the two that have put

7:16

me on a course to do things I just

7:18

didn't think I would otherwise be able to do.

7:21

Yeah, you got a chapter on luck. What

7:23

role do you think luck plays in success in

7:25

life in general? I mean,

7:28

a ton. Like that's why I don't, I hate these

7:30

like people who are like, oh, look how damn smart

7:32

I am and look at, look at me. Like, yeah,

7:34

you might be smart. I might be smart, but you

7:36

know, if other people aren't putting you in positions to

7:38

have opportunity, you might just be a smart person who

7:41

had no success or no no

7:43

accomplishment. And so I think, you know, being

7:45

ready for those moments of luck is really,

7:47

really important. I think now, especially, I think

7:50

a lot about my health,

7:52

my diet, my mindset, like my

7:54

morals, my relationships to make sure

7:56

that when luck comes, I'm really ready to

7:58

pounce on it. it, but yeah.

8:00

Again, going back to college, so

8:02

I take a class, I

8:04

start to take a journalism class and I say, you know what, I

8:07

don't know if I just want to do sports. I

8:09

literally picked up a piece of paper of every

8:11

newspaper in the state of Wisconsin. I'm like, I'll

8:13

just call every one of them and ask if

8:15

I can work this summer and I'll work doing

8:18

something else at night, I'll do it for free.

8:20

So I called and Brilliant News was one of

8:22

the top ones on there. I happened to call

8:24

a guy, Zane Zander, who answers

8:26

the phone, who runs the paper and he's like, hey,

8:28

could you come here today? And I'm like, what? So

8:31

I drove, it's only an hour away, so I drove

8:33

up there and the guy's like, I

8:35

explained to him, I've not really taken any classes.

8:37

I'm a good writer, I like journalism. He goes,

8:39

I don't care. He goes, will you run my

8:41

newspaper? And I'm like, dude, like I've

8:43

never really done anything. Like you really shouldn't hire me

8:45

to run your newspaper. He's like, yeah, well, my editor

8:48

just told me he's quitting if I don't give him

8:50

three months off to go to Finland. He goes, I'll

8:52

teach you in one week how to run a newspaper.

8:55

And I said, okay. And he gave me

8:57

a pay package I'll never forget this $300 a

8:59

week, which was a lot back then. And

9:02

a place he had a cabin on

9:04

a lake filled with largemouth bass, you

9:06

can live here. And part of

9:08

your pay comp is I'm going to let you have

9:10

a car that I'll rent for you. And I'll always

9:13

have your refrigerator full of beer. I mean,

9:15

it was like the best executive package I could

9:17

possibly have dreamed of. And I ran a newspaper

9:19

for three months and learned more in three months

9:21

there than I probably learned in five years of

9:23

college. So I mean, the

9:26

trick there to getting more lucky is just

9:28

putting yourself out there, I guess. Yes, for

9:30

sure. I think you make your own luck,

9:32

right? Like you the more you put yourself

9:34

out there, the more you put yourself in

9:37

uncomfortable situations, the more you ask questions, the

9:39

more people you get to know, you just

9:41

vastly increase your odds of luck coming your

9:43

way. You know, if you just sit there

9:45

passively, you know, eating Doritos in your couch,

9:48

like you're probably not going to make a

9:50

whole hell of a lot of luck for

9:52

yourself. So yeah, there's a combination of effort

9:54

into really making luck this magical

9:56

thing. So you got

9:58

a chapter on construct. and used

10:01

Tom Brady, the famous quarterback, as an

10:04

example of someone who did that. What can we learn

10:06

from Tom Brady about constructing greatness? Yeah,

10:08

I used him in that chapter because Sally Jenkins

10:10

is a pretty well-known sports writer at the Washington

10:12

Post, and she had had

10:14

this quote that really stuck with me

10:17

about how Tom Brady constructed greatness, that

10:19

he basically was this very mediocre athlete

10:21

coming out of Michigan. There was nothing

10:23

that said to anyone that he was

10:25

going to be the greatest quarterback of

10:28

all time, and he willed it into

10:30

existence. He constructed it, and he did

10:32

it through what he put into his

10:35

body, how he treated his body, how

10:37

he treated his mind, his preparation,

10:39

his work ethic, and

10:42

really stuck with me because I

10:44

think we all control more than we think

10:46

we can control. I think

10:49

so often people just feel like, ah, whatever, serendipity

10:51

or man, life just dealt me a bad hand.

10:53

Well, no, that's not true. You actually control every

10:55

moment, like what you're going to eat, what you're

10:57

going to drink, are you going to work out,

10:59

are you going to have a healthy relationship, are

11:02

you going to compliment somebody, are you going to

11:04

accept a compliment? All day is

11:06

just a series of things. Just keep track

11:08

of it in one day. Just write down

11:10

all the different things that you could control

11:12

in the decisions that you made, and you

11:14

could realize, man, there's a lot that we

11:16

control. When you start to realize that you

11:19

look at life through that lens, you

11:21

can construct your own greatness. You can have, hey,

11:23

this is where I want to go. These

11:26

are the things that I would need to do

11:28

to be the type of person that I want

11:30

to be or to achieve whatever goal I'm trying

11:32

to achieve. It just takes on

11:34

a life of its own once you do it. Yes, we're

11:37

not going to be Tom Brady. We're not going to be

11:39

Michael Jordan. But we could probably be a hell of

11:41

a lot more than we are right now if

11:43

you adapt that mindset. How

11:45

did you start doing that in your own life? It

11:48

was really an evolution. When

11:50

I was young in my 20s, I just

11:52

enjoyed being a reporter even to my young

11:55

30s. Then I had

11:57

this idea to start

11:59

Politico. and I became an

12:01

entrepreneur and then I realized, oh my God,

12:03

I'm actually a pretty good leader. I never

12:05

thought of myself as a leader, but I've

12:07

got pretty good morals, values, and I'm confident

12:09

enough to make decisions. And so I taught

12:11

myself how to be a CEO

12:13

and I just learned that with each of

12:15

these things that I never thought I could

12:17

do once I did them, it

12:19

opened my mind to the possibility, well, wait a

12:22

second, there's probably other aspects of my life that

12:24

I could change. Why can't I be a runner?

12:26

I hadn't run in years, so I ran a

12:28

quarter mile, then I started running half marathons. Or

12:30

why can't I go from being unhealthy

12:33

and eating pizza and cheeseburgers all day

12:35

to somebody who's really thinking about, what

12:37

do I put into my body and

12:39

how does it make me feel and

12:41

how is it gonna affect my ability

12:43

to perform long-term? And so I became,

12:45

I say almost addicted to that now,

12:47

this idea that there's things that I

12:49

can do to keep making myself better

12:51

at the things that I care about. I wanna

12:53

be a really good fly fisherman. I'm getting pretty

12:56

good. I wanna be a golfer. I suck, but

12:58

at one point, hopefully I'll be decent at

13:00

golf. I'd love to conquer

13:02

different sort of workout things. I'm really into core

13:04

power now. I'm not naturally flexible, so it took

13:06

me a long time to get flexible, but now

13:08

I'm more flexible. So I just, your

13:11

mind, it almost becomes a drug,

13:13

but like a healthy drug. So

13:15

you got several chapters in the book

13:18

about avoiding jerks, a-holes in

13:21

life and in business. Why so many chapters on

13:23

that topic? Probably

13:25

because we meet too many jerks and a-holes,

13:27

right? Because I just,

13:29

I hate it. I've had

13:31

so many interesting professional experiences where like the

13:34

job was great, but then you're working next

13:36

to a person who just sucks the life

13:38

out of you, who's either bitching and moaning

13:40

all the time or gossiping or being competitive,

13:42

like in a super unhealthy way. And

13:45

I just realized, you know what? Just like I

13:47

can control what I eat or I could control

13:49

whether I work out or I could control my

13:51

job. I control who I'm around. Like

13:53

I can decide that if someone's a jerk, I

13:56

don't have to have them in my life. I could

13:58

either freeze them out, not pay attention. attention to

14:00

them or get away from them, whether it's

14:02

in a personal relationship or in a professional

14:05

relationship. And so by the time we started

14:07

Axios, which was seven years ago, and now we have about

14:10

550 people, the first thing we put on a

14:12

piece of paper is we're never again going to work with people

14:14

we don't like. That doesn't mean we're

14:16

not going to work with super high achieving, ambitious people,

14:18

which we do, but they're going to be good people.

14:20

And if they're not good people, no matter how talented

14:22

they are, we're going to fire them because we don't

14:25

want to be around bad people. And

14:27

guess what, we're 550 people and I don't have any

14:29

bad people around me. So once you've proved

14:31

yourself that you can do that and you tell others to

14:33

do the same, you can have

14:35

like a pretty magical work experience. And if

14:37

you think about it for your listeners who

14:40

are in a place where they're dealing

14:42

with a jerk or they're in a

14:44

business or a company, the culture that

14:46

they don't like, they don't feel it's

14:48

on the level, just think about all

14:50

that negative energy. Think about how many

14:52

hours of the day you spend either

14:54

complaining about it or thinking about it

14:56

or trying to do something about it.

14:59

It's all wasted energy. Like I want to design

15:01

my life in a way where 90, 95, 98%

15:03

of my time I'm doing things I'm good

15:08

at with people that I like, that's going

15:10

to make a difference. And when you take

15:12

on that mindset that that is something that

15:14

is attainable, it's not attainable every day, it's

15:16

attainable a lot more often than people think.

15:19

Did you have any moments in your career where you

15:21

kept working with somebody, you kept

15:23

a higher that was super, you

15:25

know, they were a jerk, they were just a

15:28

complete jerk, but they were extremely competent at what

15:30

they did. But that ended up biting

15:32

you in the butt. Yeah,

15:34

that was my weakness. When

15:36

I started Politico, I was enamored with people

15:38

who were brilliant. And I

15:40

overlooked the fact that they were bad

15:42

people, that they were cancerous, that they

15:44

were either they're mean, they're narcissistic, whatever

15:47

it was. And I had one

15:49

person in particular who I put into a position of

15:51

power and a brilliant

15:54

person, but just not a good

15:56

leader, not a good effect on

15:58

other people's human psyche. And

16:01

you know what happens is people start to

16:03

hold me accountable for that. They're like, Jim,

16:05

you're the leader. You're supposed to protect us.

16:07

Like, why would you allow someone like that

16:10

to be devil me? That's just not right.

16:12

And they're right. I was wrong. I made

16:14

a mistake. And I had done that several

16:17

times. And I decided after seeing that, you

16:19

know, that I don't ever want to do

16:21

it again, that I'm not going

16:23

to make the deal with the devil.

16:25

I'm not going to take like extreme

16:27

talent that comes with a baggage of

16:30

bad values. And I jettisoned

16:32

it. I stopped doing it. But yeah, for a

16:34

long time, I made that mistake. And I'd say

16:36

almost everything. I think I'm a pretty good leader

16:38

now. I mean, it sounds a little cocky, but

16:40

I think I am. But it's only because I

16:42

was so bad at it at the beginning, because

16:44

I'd never been a leader. I didn't know how

16:46

to hire people. I didn't know how to create

16:48

a culture. I didn't know how to

16:50

get rid of jerks. I didn't know how to

16:52

figure out a diverse set of people who complement

16:54

the skill set I have. I just knew once

16:56

I knew I could outwork anybody. That's basically what

16:59

I knew I could work as hard or harder

17:01

than anyone. No one was going to outwork me.

17:03

Well, that's not really a great leadership style. How

17:06

do you hire to filter out the jerks?

17:08

Do you have any like criteria or heuristics

17:10

you use? For sure. We've

17:13

gotten quite good at it. And part of it

17:15

is like a screening process of one,

17:17

you know, really trying to talk to people

17:20

who aren't on the list of people that they

17:22

tell you to talk to for character witness, try

17:24

to find people who really work with them. And

17:26

were they a good colleague? Do people like them?

17:28

Do they like light up when you say that

17:31

person's name? When you're interviewing

17:33

the person, some red flags are if

17:35

they say anything bad about somebody else,

17:37

that's like a disqualifier. Like you just

17:40

don't want people who talk crap about

17:42

their current or previous employers. And then

17:44

the other red flag is people who

17:46

say, I, I, I, who are just

17:49

seem to be very self-focused, taking credit

17:51

for things that you probably know were

17:53

a group effort. That's another big one.

17:55

And so, you know, and then being

17:57

very clear with people, I say, the

18:00

time like listen you might be the most

18:02

talented person but if you're a bad person

18:04

I'm telling you will fire you and you've

18:06

got to do a gut check before you

18:08

come here. Like if you've had problems in

18:10

the past being narcissistic or being self-focused or

18:12

not being able to put the cause above

18:14

your own selfish ambitions like we will reject

18:16

you and so you do those things and

18:19

you know some people smuggle themselves across the

18:21

border on this one but most don't. Yeah

18:23

and when you do find one I imagine you just fire

18:25

quickly. Yeah, yeah the minute you know you got a problem

18:27

you got to get rid of it and again it's hard

18:30

it's a human being we're not cold

18:32

and it's never easy to fire somebody

18:34

but I don't

18:36

really find it that hard firing people anymore

18:38

especially if I'm telling people along the way

18:41

here are the things that you're doing that

18:43

you got to change or you can't work

18:45

here. Like the problem with firing is when

18:47

you're not being direct with people you're not

18:49

giving them blunt feedback you're not giving them

18:52

an opportunity to change. There should

18:54

never by the time you fire someone they should

18:56

know when they're coming through my office door they're

18:58

here to get fired. They've had enough conversations with

19:00

me I've been crystal clear with them they know

19:02

they haven't improved and they know the end is

19:04

here. Besides avoiding

19:06

jerks you got a list of different types

19:08

of losers you want to avoid. Who are

19:11

these losers you're talking about? Well

19:13

you want to avoid people who

19:16

are super self-focused you want to

19:18

avoid people who are blaming

19:21

other people you want to avoid people who

19:23

don't sort of carry their weight right so

19:25

like obviously I spit on

19:27

the ball there with the loser thing but

19:30

it's just like it's people that are just

19:32

drags in life they're not honest they're indirect

19:34

hate people were indirect in terms of like

19:36

you know that they're mad about something but

19:38

they can't tell you what they're mad about

19:40

you know that they're unhappy with you but

19:42

they won't explain why and so you know

19:44

it's really trying to find people who are

19:47

high achieving like you should never be apologetic

19:49

about trying to find people from the right

19:51

gene pool people who are just super duper

19:53

spectacularly talented at what they do you should

19:56

never be apologetic for that but you got

19:58

to find people who are like they're They're

20:00

life enhancing. They're fun to work with. They

20:02

lift you up. They make you feel better

20:04

about yourself. They make others feel better about

20:06

themselves. There's a humility to

20:08

them, even if they're exceptionally

20:11

talented. And I've been lucky. I've been around a

20:13

lot of those people and that's rubbed off on

20:15

me in a very positive way and I just,

20:17

I like good people. I love good people. Yeah.

20:20

You have the list here. They're all W's. You

20:22

want to avoid whiners, whisperers,

20:24

weasels, wannabes and wonderkins,

20:27

which you define as someone who brags

20:29

about their own credentials or brain power.

20:31

You know, they say they're smarter or

20:33

better than someone else when deep down

20:35

they fear they're not. Yeah. That's

20:38

a, that's a pretty good five W's. I'd say, yeah,

20:40

you know, no one wants to be around people who

20:42

are whining or whispering gossip, but it's

20:44

just, they get just not fun. Life's too short

20:47

for that kind of crap. Yeah. So

20:49

if you see some of those things in yourself, maybe you got

20:51

to do a gut check and be like, I got to be

20:53

less of a mope, less of a whiner. For sure. And if

20:55

you're surrounding yourself with people like that, you got to be like,

20:57

man, is that rubbing off on me? You

20:59

really are. Like think about you're sitting at work

21:01

for eight hours with a group of people. Like

21:04

don't kid yourself. You might be the strongest person

21:06

in the world. That stuff rubs off on you.

21:08

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25:05

And now back to the show. Well,

25:07

speaking of stuff rubbing off on you

25:09

at work, your job can

25:11

be incredibly stressful, incredibly

25:14

intense. How do you

25:16

avoid bringing that stuff home? Yeah,

25:18

I mean, it goes to controlling the parts

25:20

of my life that I can control. I've probably

25:23

got a little bit of a screw loose, so I don't think

25:26

people have to take it maybe as far as I

25:28

do, but I'm super religious about what I

25:30

put into my body. I really

25:32

try to be careful with drinking, even though

25:34

I love drinking, but I try to curtail

25:36

it. I work out every day. I

25:38

very rarely miss a day. I try to have

25:41

a lot of diversity in the type of workouts

25:43

that I do. I try to have a lot

25:45

of really good relationships. I've been married 23 years.

25:47

My wife's my best friend. I've got three kids. I

25:50

have this thing I write about in the book called

25:52

My Happiness Matrix, which my wife has always given

25:54

me crap about. But it

25:56

is my way Of keeping

25:59

real. My happiness matrix

26:01

as these buckets. I have

26:03

my faith, my family, my

26:05

work, my friendships, my hobbies,

26:07

my health. and if I'm

26:09

off or if I'm stressed

26:12

or if. Tired.

26:14

Usually it's because one of those buckets is empty. Like

26:16

I'm not been paying enough attention to my parents are

26:18

I haven't had meaningful one on one time with my

26:21

kids are if you know have a bad deal is

26:23

healthy at night as I should be. And

26:25

it is a good way for me to

26:28

keep inventory of the things that I know,

26:30

make me feel good about myself and helped

26:32

me perform better. Because it is like you

26:34

know we run a company and the also

26:36

have a family and I wrote a book.

26:39

like in we do Tv like with there's

26:41

a lot that we do and I loved

26:43

doing it but it could be terribly stressful.

26:45

Like I don't find it stressful, I find

26:48

a very energizing but if I didn't do

26:50

those other things if I didn't have my

26:52

faith and my mind it in the right

26:54

place. I. Don't know how I

26:56

do, and I think I would be grumpy

26:58

or that be worn out and worn down

27:01

and better, and I just don't want to

27:03

be that. Or. Is it just

27:05

focus on making sure you're suing up all

27:07

the buckets and your happiness matrix? But would

27:09

you do? they? Let's say you get a

27:12

really crappy day or something. happens the office

27:14

and and as always fires to put out

27:16

and then you're going home and use Liggins

27:19

to see mood. Do you do anything to

27:21

decompress so you don't take that out on

27:23

your family? The at work out a hundred

27:25

percent. I got a super the core power

27:28

right now which is basically like high intensity

27:30

yoga with weights and art room right beside

27:32

like you sweat. But you're also. Like. Work

27:34

and quite hard and like as something

27:37

like that for an hour rub, pounding

27:39

for an hour and I'm sweating and

27:41

I can't think about anything other than

27:43

the moment. I find that to be

27:46

extremely therapeutic. extremely therapeutic award that after

27:48

their come home and just like. Was.

27:51

Something stupid that doesn't require a whole lot

27:53

of intellectual engagement or do with my wife

27:55

or whatever. You know, it's just do something.

27:57

Because of the old days, I would just

27:59

come home and. The couple of martinis which

28:01

is like that helps to the senate set

28:03

me back the next day says always afraid

28:05

of your business is online and it's your

28:07

the news businesses is constantly going on You

28:10

said hard boundaries we like one at home

28:12

or not going to check my phone on

28:14

not gonna see what's going on to do

28:16

that. Now. I suck at that

28:18

night everly do. I'm a really bad at

28:20

that work life balance. Things are mainly because

28:22

I like. I really do like and I'm

28:24

always curious what's going on. A you know

28:27

I've I've I've basically integrated work into my

28:29

life which allows me to travel a lot

28:31

or like I can go fish and then

28:33

come back and like engage really happy for

28:35

a couple hours gotten fish for another hour

28:37

to and so I'm not great at to

28:39

shutting off but at the same time as

28:41

the A do enough stuff to offset it

28:43

and I tried. definitely if I'm with my

28:46

kids my wife at my parents' Friends I

28:48

try to be very focused and present

28:50

in that moment but then the minute

28:52

that stuff like abject of my phone

28:54

I'm do what I call. I've listened

28:56

to a podcast liked I definitely and

28:58

that great on the discipline around that

29:01

to talk about that to school as

29:03

quitting is something you need a learns

29:05

wise quitting an important school. Because

29:08

I think there's like as a stigma attached

29:10

to quitting but like sometimes quitting surpassing you

29:12

can do if you're in a bad relationship,

29:14

Quit it. Ah, you have a bad bad

29:16

habit. Quit it. But I mainly talk about

29:19

it at at work where he listened if

29:21

you is it happened to me I started

29:23

politico. I'm ten years in. Is. That

29:25

be seven years and really does a three

29:27

year or deal. I didn't get along with

29:29

a guy who adds who bankrolled the company.

29:32

We have different values and it was starting

29:34

to suck the life. Ah to me I

29:36

went from eighty to ninety percent of my

29:38

time doing things I enjoy with people I

29:40

enjoyed to spending seventy percent of my time

29:42

trying to clean up by other people's messes

29:44

and I hated it in my wife would

29:46

just like you gotta quit. You just

29:48

gotta quit. Even though you created the company, get

29:50

the hell out of their like, this is no

29:52

way to live and I quit and I started

29:54

another company and created that more in the image

29:56

of the company that I wanted the first one

29:58

to be. And sometimes you. The Do that you

30:01

have to quit managers. You have to quit

30:03

companies. You have to quit relationships to give

30:05

yourself a chance to return. Sort of resets

30:07

on things that make you feel a lot

30:09

better about yourself and I seek Mm. Maybe

30:11

because I'm getting old, I'm fifty three like

30:13

I'd say you, these are to think about

30:16

your own mortality, but like. It's

30:18

not that long man like we just don't

30:20

have that long of a of of a

30:22

run on earth and I just wanna every

30:24

single day or week or month to be

30:26

better than the the ones before you wanna

30:29

make a difference. You want to be around

30:31

people that you're love and admire. That love

30:33

and admire you. And if you could stack

30:35

your life that way you can extract a

30:37

lot of joy. And then when the bad

30:39

parts of life hit you and they do

30:41

hit you man, they hit you hard. But.

30:44

If you've kind of fortified yourself for it,

30:47

You. Know. We'll. Be all right, we'll

30:49

persevere. Any advice to

30:51

people who. They. Feel if you

30:53

gotta quit something right move to be a

30:55

job to be of business. but on the

30:58

surface it's a success but are miserable. How

31:00

do you go back putting something that. Is.

31:02

A success. A clinical well as a successful

31:04

you know is that windows with political his

31:06

rights deter you'd want to finally get the

31:09

gumption to to stop that. Yeah I mean

31:11

it was for the hardest things I've ever

31:13

done. As like I believe my baby. They

31:15

got Lily there, I was there at the

31:17

earth, I birth the damn thing and here

31:19

I had to quit it because I didn't

31:21

really own it. I had Shadow Equity someone

31:23

else on the company but it will. We

31:25

are incompatible and like the way you do

31:27

it is, you just have to have that

31:29

com hard conversation with yourself. Like

31:32

are you. Are you mostly unhappy?

31:34

Like if you're not like we should

31:36

all be trained as he spent eighty

31:38

ninety percent of our time in a

31:40

good place at a good had space.

31:42

It if you're find yourself at work

31:44

with a manager or a job or

31:46

a company where most of the time

31:48

you're demoralized and you're angry or your

31:51

baiter v are just. Bored. You

31:53

gotta get out like that, the universe telling

31:55

you it's time to move on. Not everybody

31:57

can like sometimes. we got these objects patients

31:59

in life to take care of other people.

32:01

But I think more often than people realize

32:03

you have agency. Man, you can you want

32:06

quit? You can quit. You can go find

32:08

something else. And the truth is we all

32:10

worry way too much about what other people

32:12

think about our success. People are really that

32:14

they're too busy, their focus on their own

32:16

life and I'll give a hoot about years

32:19

and so you gotta live up to your

32:21

measurements. Stick for yourself. Not what you think

32:23

other people are expecting of you. We had

32:25

a Any Duke on the podcast a while

32:27

back ago to talk about her books when.

32:29

To. Quit know a do famous poker players

32:32

she's a psychologist now and wanted it to

32:34

device was issued. try to figure out what

32:36

he should quit something as you want to

32:38

quitting coats and as easy someone you can

32:41

talk to third party that can talk to

32:43

through all the different factors that why

32:45

she quit or maybe you shouldn't It's not

32:47

like your wife might have been a

32:49

quitting shows for yeah I'm I think we

32:52

all have to have whether it's a quitting

32:54

coach but I take a life coach

32:56

a huge just need not got lucky I've

32:58

got. By. Half dozen people in my

33:00

life who like, really know me. Know.

33:02

The good, The bad. The ugly. Care

33:05

about me? And Will will

33:07

be blunt to be obvious you wife was

33:09

at the top of that list and you've

33:11

gotta be able to have those conversations with

33:14

people as a suspect. This beyond especially for

33:16

dude psych. It's hard. It's harder for us

33:18

to open up. It's hard for us to

33:20

have a joke, even that word intimate relationship

33:23

with another guy like whoa, what's that But

33:25

you gotta have that you have to have

33:27

like these friendships that goal a level deeper.

33:29

You have to force yourself to really get

33:32

to know what least a small group of

33:34

people so that you have somebody to call.

33:36

You out or to tell you man. Now

33:38

said time to go down the time to

33:40

quit Or man, you should have done that.

33:43

You look like a real jerk. You are

33:45

a jerk. You got to apologize. You need

33:47

those people in your life and it doesn't

33:49

need to be six people, but he needed

33:51

least one and I would argue. Need a

33:54

couple is an insurance policy. To

33:56

your chapter called Excellence over Success Would you

33:58

mean by that. Yeah

34:01

introduce from i read the chapter around

34:03

out this coach the Messiah the university

34:05

which recruiter one of my sons to

34:08

play soccer. Christian. University

34:10

of Pennsylvania and I went to listen to

34:12

him talk to the team and I realized.

34:15

He. Spent two hours. He never talked

34:17

about soccer, and he has. He's a

34:19

what is a winningest coach in the

34:21

history a Soccer certainly the current winningest

34:23

coach. and he talks about least not

34:26

about trying to be undefeated, which they

34:28

often are close to it. It's about

34:30

each person being excellent. Like, really like

34:33

having a measure for yourself for your

34:35

team to truly be awesome. Which is

34:37

different than success because you could be

34:39

awesome. It's something you could truly achieve

34:42

excellence, but you might fail. But.

34:44

I would rather to achieve excellence know

34:46

I gave every single thing I had

34:49

no that I maxed out on my

34:51

ability and failed than to have like

34:53

a success said I really wasn't that

34:55

responsible for and I kind of lucked

34:58

into it and really it was somebody

35:00

else and I think really striving for

35:02

excellence and in really again it goes

35:04

to like excellence is measured by you.

35:07

When. We start measuring ourselves against other people

35:09

or magazine pictures or other folks were doing

35:11

what we're doing. You have lost, You have

35:14

to say. Okay, Who am I? What am

35:16

I capable of? How can I exceed my

35:18

current expectation of myself? So I like? I'm

35:20

not like I naturally gifted athlete and I've

35:23

ever really had to force myself to become

35:25

pretty good at working out. But one of

35:27

the things that Fifty Three I tried to

35:29

like. Every year I try to build a

35:31

lift a little bit more than I lifted

35:34

the year before and has a problem my

35:36

own psychotic way. It's. At as to

35:38

dump try to reverse aging or something but

35:40

like you know if you think about that

35:43

in my yes I'm not going to be

35:45

Benson to fifty or three hundred but like

35:47

can I lived a little bit more each

35:49

year so far by I can and like

35:51

that's measuring me against me is not me

35:53

against my nephew, are my son or my

35:56

friends and I just think it's a healthier

35:58

place for us to be and. What is

36:00

idea in theory about how do you

36:02

balance? You're pursuing excellence but also the

36:04

need to deliver the goods Get paid.

36:06

Mythic a writer writer writes excellent stuff

36:08

but it doesn't get noticed and they're

36:10

not getting paid yet to make a

36:13

living. So how do you have any

36:15

deviate? a struggle with that at all.

36:17

I mean listen, like at the end of

36:19

the date we have basic needs we need

36:22

to meet in. so there might be areas

36:24

that you want to pursue excellence in that

36:26

you can't monetize of. They become a distraction

36:28

or they become a hindrance to you doing

36:31

like the basics of life like. I've never

36:33

advocating for anyone to abdicate the responsibilities of

36:35

of life. But I just think when you're

36:37

looking at success, success is. Often.

36:40

In the I have other be holders

36:42

were as excellence I think is something

36:44

you can see in that you can

36:46

feel and that you can measure and

36:48

that that doesn't mean you're trying to

36:50

be. Wordsworth Writer: you're

36:52

trying to be Michael Jordan. It's you tried

36:54

to just be a little bit better than

36:57

you were before establishing your own level of

36:59

excellence. And I do think you can apply

37:01

that to most situations. Like even if you

37:03

said okay, I have to just be a

37:05

regular writer to provide well with to how

37:07

can you be the very best version of

37:09

the writer that you have to be to

37:11

put food on the table? And how can

37:13

you be better next month and you are

37:16

this month Like that's always possible, always possible.

37:18

Otherwise, like I just think. It.

37:20

May be it.evidence. wired the same

37:22

way but like to see idea

37:24

of stagnating to sounds so boring.

37:27

See you have a higher had access

37:29

named Kathleen. Help him and you say

37:31

if you want to have success in

37:33

your career. You. Need to be like

37:36

Kathleen. What did she do in her career?

37:38

That meter stand? Oh no. She was a

37:40

young woman who worked for us to the

37:42

early days of Axxeo. son. She said a

37:44

personality where she stood out and. You.

37:46

Know she ended up going to business

37:48

school and I ended up talking to

37:50

her little bit and end up writing

37:52

a chapter about her because she was

37:54

one of these people who are. It's

37:56

a great lesson for early and work

37:59

like she was it. Twenty three are

38:01

some with them and she does Was

38:03

a kind of person who was in

38:05

first left last no matter what the

38:07

job was. Get someone coffee or do

38:09

a research paper or help strategize a

38:11

new product. Raising your hand enthusiastically throwing

38:13

herself into it always made people feel

38:16

better about themselves. was naturally of funny

38:18

person so like lit up a room

38:20

and under sick. It's such a great

38:22

lesson for those people As a good

38:24

a good the book is in some

38:26

ways is really good for college grads

38:28

as like just realizing that just like

38:31

go in there in the basic values

38:33

of life, work harder than other people.

38:35

be honest, try to have a little

38:37

bit a humility like those things make

38:39

such a difference in their simple thing

38:41

said that all of us are capable

38:43

of and as she really exemplified them.

38:46

Yes, Yes volunteer elevate regime for a little tough.

38:48

Sometimes when you're at of job you're gonna look

38:50

that's that's donkey work on like going to do

38:52

that know you you should do to exit you

38:55

don't know what you to learn by doing what

38:57

you think it's a donkey jobs. Or

38:59

who you're doing it for me but a person

39:01

you just did a research thing for the he

39:03

didn't have to. Turns out to be the person

39:05

who hires you and promotes you and space you

39:08

more than you ever thought was possible. Or maybe

39:10

that person goes on to be Ceo of the

39:12

company like you'd have her. You never know. It's

39:14

again like throwing yourself out there, he taking advantage

39:17

of opportunities a increasing your chance for luck because

39:19

you've put yourself in these situations that other people

39:21

are putting themselves in and it makes you stand

39:23

out. You. Sarah How you encourage

39:26

your kids to play poker like and

39:28

actually play for money Poker People like

39:30

that's bad parenting advice. Why would you

39:32

tell you physically present one? I love

39:34

poker because I think you learn so

39:37

much about humanity at the poker table.

39:39

Million. So much about. Risk.

39:42

Taking and calibrating Risk taking.

39:44

You learn so much about

39:46

bantering conversation. You learn so

39:49

much about reading people. how

39:51

are they gambling? Are they

39:53

reckless? Are they careful? Do

39:55

they have some weird twitch

39:57

you. Get. A feel for the

39:59

rhythm of the numbers, a rhythm of

40:02

momentum. and so I look at the

40:04

poker table and I just think back

40:06

man, I learned a lot by gambling

40:08

a lot. and I'm not the gamble

40:10

recklessly or anything like that. but I'm

40:12

saying there's something about it that this

40:14

teaches you about. People are not yet

40:17

at the most. Jobs are people people

40:19

People right like know A I know

40:21

robots and I can replace our species

40:23

And were you know, a complicated new

40:25

wants to idiosyncratic species and so being

40:27

and a poker table or being in

40:29

a bar. Being just in a

40:32

place where you gotta read people

40:34

and you gotta start to sharpen

40:36

your emotional intelligence and combine that

40:38

with some actual intelligence that that's

40:40

where you start to really sharpen

40:42

your repertoire of sir people, her

40:44

disease, Poker games a go on

40:47

and Washington D C with journalists

40:49

and politicians that a real thing.

40:52

You. Know it is Sebi. I played in a

40:54

bunch. I don't know how much they still do.

40:56

I don't know of any going on right now,

40:59

but the yeah, bambee. I used a man before

41:01

Nine Eleven. They've locked on the capital since then,

41:03

but I used of grab a twelve pack of

41:05

beer, walk into the capital late at night, sit

41:08

in a congressman's office and or be without Six

41:10

Eight Ten. People playing poker felt like high stakes

41:12

is playing like for fun and play for a

41:14

little bit of money but used to do it

41:16

all the time. There's a couple games have used

41:19

to play and a write off Capitol Hill where

41:21

he does a Congressman and. Journalists would play

41:23

and I love it. I love the

41:25

banter more than anything else and it

41:27

just been around and. The. Usoc, in

41:29

fact, and and playing cards are not a bad

41:31

thing to do. Genuine. Harry Truman

41:34

was vice president has only did pretty much

41:36

you just poker to split pushers. Not a

41:38

bad way to spend your time on the

41:40

or it. Is harboring a

41:42

career? There's a difference between wartime

41:45

leadership In peacetime leadership would mean

41:47

by that. Yes,

41:49

I think about it a lot in

41:51

terms of starting a company. Like when

41:53

you're starting a company or or you're

41:55

trying to radically change. Accompany it's wartime,

41:58

right? And what? during wartime your. Really

42:00

worried about casualties. You're not worried about

42:02

niceties. You are in survival mode meeting.

42:04

You're willing to break things. Do it

42:06

in a sloppy way to take risks

42:09

you might not otherwise takes be a

42:11

little maniacal because it's life or death.

42:13

And to be honest, like I always

42:15

have found myself to be a better

42:17

wartime leader that a peacetime leader I

42:19

decide to live in that environment. I

42:22

love the energy, I loved us. High

42:24

stakes I'd I'd love you know kind

42:26

of be and create of on the

42:28

fly. that's different than you. Know what's

42:30

your company? Five six years and are

42:32

you work for an adult company and

42:35

you're a piece time leader which thou

42:37

would your peace time leader. You've got

42:39

a little bit of stability and your

42:41

job is to manage. The success you

42:44

have is to create process. He says

42:46

to find people who are good institutional

42:48

managers as opposed to kind of radical

42:50

risk taking cowboys cowgirls ride. So it's

42:53

a totally different mentality and you know

42:55

he got to be comfortable that you

42:57

might be good at one and not

42:59

the. Other and I think you know I

43:01

think I've a know I'm a very good wartime

43:03

leader and now I'm kind of of mixers a

43:06

little been a war and a little bit a

43:08

peace. Deal. Pieces harder for me

43:10

at requires like I'd I don't care

43:12

that much about process and I don't

43:14

really like the status quo. I like

43:16

change in so there's always a tug

43:19

of war inside of me internally. That

43:21

bobby a tug of war for any

43:23

of us. Anybody listening who's in a

43:25

position of leadership I just realized was

43:27

different attributes had different people that you

43:29

need around you and moments like that

43:31

during the online content business is artificial

43:33

intelligence cause you to sit back into

43:35

wartime leadership mood? For Sir

43:38

Ian, mainly because you could just see like

43:40

media is a tough business to begin with,

43:42

but just the nature of how we get

43:44

information in how we run companies is gonna

43:46

chase profoundly. As a gay I will look

43:49

back and artificial intelligence will be as big

43:51

of a deal as a creation of the

43:53

internet. I. Really believe that? I just think

43:55

it's going to fundamentally. They. Changed

43:57

the nature of how we live, how we

44:00

do the jobs it for me and running

44:02

a media company, how people get information and

44:04

so it's my job to sort of get

44:07

back into that wartime mindset. which means, okay,

44:09

what does this mean? How's it going to

44:11

disrupt my business? How do we make changes

44:13

to make sure that the humans that week

44:16

higher in do things that no machine could

44:18

replicate? How do we think of this technology?

44:20

Not as a threat, but as an asset?

44:23

How do I use the improvements that we're

44:25

starting to see with these large language models

44:27

and integrate them into the works that were

44:29

doing. And like I'd love that

44:32

stuff. yeah no worries me. sometimes

44:34

it it might make my job

44:36

harder or the industry more complicated,

44:38

but as like the dynamism of

44:40

having to solve a problem that's

44:43

a valid thing that new in

44:45

real time without. The. Real obvious,

44:47

don't really know which direction the

44:49

gold I find. That's exhilarating. Is

44:52

you imagine you try new things you otherwise

44:54

wouldn't tried? Maybe five years ago. For

44:57

sure and really trying to think about okay

44:59

I always try to think about okay. let's

45:01

assume that Ai is even better than people

45:04

think it's gonna be then what would that

45:06

mean for information consumption? And for me as

45:08

somebody who runs a media company was hundreds

45:10

of journalists to thing that I know know

45:12

robot will do is they're never going to

45:15

be. As. Subject Matter expert that

45:17

has human sources that can capture the

45:19

nuance of human conversation and break news

45:22

and tell people things that they did

45:24

not know. So very much reorienting our

45:26

company around that I want more of

45:28

those people and will use machines to

45:31

make those people stronger but the machine

45:33

is not a threat to those people

45:35

and therefore to us as still every

45:38

business is going through this or will

45:40

go through this and with the up

45:42

and media says a harder. Business.

45:45

in general is a complicated business but

45:47

it's also like a very public fund

45:49

interesting dynamic business and so you know

45:52

this is just a a a people

45:54

who don't pay attention to a i

45:56

are nuts the crazy like you're basically

45:58

you know the world about to change.

46:01

You're getting like a preview of it

46:03

in real time, but through open AI

46:05

and Tropic, Google, Amazon, Character

46:07

AI, you name it, like pay attention to

46:09

what they're doing because that is the future

46:12

and it's going to affect you. And we

46:14

all have an obligation to be smart about

46:16

the world around us and get smart about

46:18

the world around you and control your own

46:20

destiny and make the decisions on your terms

46:22

as opposed to having them imposed by some

46:24

damn robot. So you

46:26

got a chapter on healthy revenge. What is

46:28

healthy revenge? You know,

46:30

I've got a little revenge streak in me.

46:33

It can become all consuming, right? Like someone

46:35

screws you and you want to like get

46:37

back at them. And for me, like healthy

46:40

revenge is like, I'll give yourself a little

46:42

bit of revenge. And maybe that revenge is

46:44

just like, being

46:46

a better company or showing that the person

46:48

who screwed you over that you're going to

46:50

do better than them. And so like, don't

46:53

say you're not going to have any revenge or

46:55

you're not going to think about it at all.

46:57

But don't allow revenge to be the thing that

46:59

just animates your activities and consumes

47:01

your mind. There's a lot of research

47:05

out there that that really pollutes your mind,

47:07

pollutes your decision making capabilities. So

47:09

you know, having a little bit, you know,

47:11

thinking about it a tiny bit, using

47:13

that energy that comes from it to just

47:15

be better at what you do. That's a

47:18

way to have a little bit of healthy

47:20

revenge. I like that because

47:22

I think sometimes we're a little too

47:24

down on revenge. You know,

47:26

we're always telling ourselves, you got to be

47:28

stoic, just let things go. There's that quote,

47:30

you know, the best revenge is to not

47:33

be like the person who wronged you. But

47:36

sometimes I think it's nice to try to

47:38

outdo the other person who wronged you. And

47:41

I think as long as you keep it within

47:43

healthy parameters, you know, having a little bit of

47:45

a chip on your shoulder can

47:47

be an animating force. So

47:50

you also have a chapter

47:52

about a Wall Street Journal reporter

47:55

named David Rogers, and

47:57

what he taught you about quiet greatness.

48:00

Tell us about that. So David, thank

48:02

God, he's still alive. He lives here outside of

48:04

DC. I still see him, you know, trying to

48:06

see him every month or two for lunch. He

48:08

was my mentor at the wall street journal and

48:10

he was on Capitol Hill, come in Congress. He

48:13

was a legend. Like he is very few

48:15

people with dispute. He's probably the best

48:17

congressional reporter of our generation, but like

48:19

he wasn't on TV and

48:21

he wasn't writing books and

48:23

pounding his chest. He just

48:25

was quietly way better

48:28

than anybody else. Did way more homework

48:30

than anyone else. Understood the institution so

48:32

well that members of Congress would routinely

48:34

call him to ask

48:36

him, what are the rules of the house? What

48:39

is the history of this legislation? He

48:41

was just encyclopedic. And what he taught

48:43

me was you're never going

48:45

to really be excellent at anything. If

48:48

you don't really have a

48:50

real deal mastery of your subject. Like

48:52

he really taught me to do the

48:55

hard work to master the craft or

48:57

master the beat in that case that

48:59

I was on. And he was tough,

49:01

man. He was a tough guy. He

49:03

was gruff. He would, he

49:05

could be brutal in his assessments of my

49:07

work, but he cared. And despite the gruff

49:10

exterior is a really sweetheart of a guy

49:12

and has become one of my best friends

49:14

and mentors and it really changed my life. It

49:16

was hard, but it was just a big, big

49:18

reason. I think I am who I am today.

49:21

I think that's really one of the best

49:24

pieces of life advice. Just find yourself a

49:26

great mentor. You know, they're worth their weight

49:28

in gold. Well, Jim, this has been a

49:30

great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and

49:32

your work? I can get it on

49:34

Amazon. Just the good stuff. If you're looking for the

49:36

book, axios.com is where I

49:38

write in the company that I run. It's

49:41

all about getting people smarter, faster on topics

49:44

like politics, business, AI, media,

49:46

check it out. It's free.

49:49

Most of the products are free. The idea is to

49:51

help you better understand the world. So I

49:53

appreciate conversations like this. I appreciate all the work

49:55

that you do. Well, thanks so much,

49:57

Jim. I really appreciate that. That's been a pleasure. The

50:00

care Thank you. My.

50:02

Guess is Jim Vandehei you the author of

50:04

the book. Just a good stuff. It's veil

50:06

on amazon.com and posters everywhere Circular sooner today

50:08

with.i a slush. Good stuff. We findings to

50:10

resources. We dug deeper into this topic. Well

50:20

that wraps up Another edition of the A

50:22

When Podcast Mixer Secular Website An Art of

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50:27

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