0:01

Hi my name is John Cam from

0:03

a therapist who went through his own

0:06

rebirth many years ago and have been

0:08

documenting my journey ever since, sharing my

0:10

life, lessons and revelations. I believe in

0:12

casual the clinical with Tuesday that you

0:14

I come unrehearsed on purpose because self

0:16

help doesn't have to be so complicated.

0:22

Of a super important episode for

0:24

you today and we're going to

0:26

talk about some things that I

0:28

think are going to activate some

0:30

people and damn that's kind of

0:32

the point, right to stir stir

0:34

things up and hopefully if you're

0:36

on a journey of i'm looking

0:38

inward. I still have reacting

0:40

to the activation actually examining it which

0:42

is difficult to do. I

0:45

tried to a daily. Zach Watson: How

0:47

are you. Fantastic.

0:49

Thanks for having a job! Yeah

0:51

of course thank you. I had

0:53

a Iraq ski on my podcast

0:55

a while ago and the worked

0:57

at she is doing and the

0:59

word that you're doing I just

1:01

think is. God.

1:03

It's you know what? It's so important

1:05

and yet it's also very controversial. So

1:07

I wanted to ask you first. On

1:10

your side, Would you getting as far

1:13

as a. How.

1:15

Are people responding to all

1:17

your conversations about mental load?

1:19

Obviously, I'm assuming. Mom's.

1:22

Women love it and I'm and maybe the

1:24

assumption by me you're getting a lot of

1:26

pushback from men and I would say older

1:28

men like a men my age. That.

1:31

Yeah. I think you're spot on with

1:34

I think a lot of women feel

1:36

really heard and like now dated in

1:38

what they're experiencing. And for those that

1:40

don't know much about me I give

1:42

a lot of examples of where I

1:44

add extra mental age. My partner which

1:46

you seem from my understanding came from

1:48

reading Eaves Fairplay book will help me

1:50

ask you this how did you even

1:52

get their had headed your story get

1:54

you to even reading her book Are

1:56

being interested in this topic. So.

1:59

We. have Back in 2021, we

2:01

had our first born and in

2:03

that time, I was on paternity

2:05

leave. I started talking about like experience

2:08

of being a new dad. And

2:10

in that time I developed an audience of

2:12

about 80,000 followers on TikTok. And

2:17

as I was talking about that, I

2:21

continuously was trying to better

2:23

understand how I can deliver value, I think,

2:25

to all those moms and women that were

2:27

following me that were, I

2:30

think, kind of impressed with the way that I thought about

2:32

being a parent and a partner. And

2:36

at some point, two people I really look

2:38

up to, Laura Danger and Abby Echol, I

2:41

had made a post saying like, what book should

2:43

I read next? And both of them like simultaneously

2:45

said fair play. I was like, well, it's pretty

2:48

clear what I need to read next. And

2:50

so I had this opportunity, I mean, it's

2:52

not an easy book to get through, I

2:54

think, for a lot of men. I

2:57

don't think it's, by any means, it's not

2:59

misandrist or anything, it's not, I

3:02

don't think it's shitting on men. I

3:04

do think it is, I think

3:06

it's challenging. I think

3:08

it's calling us out in an

3:11

appropriate way. Yes, and it's

3:13

challenging because it's creating

3:15

a new blueprint. And if

3:18

you come from a generation, I

3:20

come from a household where my dad

3:22

used to order my mom to get the fetching

3:24

of a glass of water. And that was just

3:26

normal. And he would be in the other room

3:28

being like, yeah, give me some water,

3:30

like that kind of shit. And you know, she

3:32

would go give him a glass of water and

3:34

very enabling. And so this

3:36

whole idea of like mental

3:39

load and domestic labor distribution,

3:41

all that, I mean, it's

3:43

turning over a rock, exposing

3:46

a lot of things which needs to be

3:48

exposed. And then it's also, of course, activating

3:51

a lot of men because they

3:53

didn't grow up that way. And so for

3:55

them to change is

3:58

going to be difficult. Yeah,

4:00

you made a post recently that I was thinking about

4:03

stitching. I didn't want it to sound like I was calling

4:05

you out in any way, so I didn't do it. I

4:07

figured I'd wait till I talk with you first. But I

4:12

would love it. I mean, you know, we,

4:14

you and I, I think that's what's really

4:16

cool about you is you post

4:18

stuff where people do call you out and

4:21

the courage for you to actually post and be

4:23

objective about it, I think is awesome. It

4:29

was the, I forget what the actual purpose of

4:31

the post was, but I got caught on, I

4:33

think your mom had called you to say, hey,

4:35

roll your windows down in your car. Yeah. And

4:38

I think that's a really good, so I

4:40

think one of the things people appreciate about

4:42

me is I'm able to call out those

4:44

little aspects of mental load that we haven't

4:46

labeled yet. Right. And you want

4:49

to do it. And so that right

4:51

there is a clear moment of like,

4:53

wow, your mom still holds the mental

4:55

load of making sure that the car

4:57

is, you know, being

4:59

weatherproofed appropriately. It

5:01

occurs to me like she might also say,

5:04

hey, you know, it's getting that snowy time

5:06

of year, make sure your snow tires are

5:09

on your car for like, those like, those

5:12

like seasonal maintenance items are

5:14

almost like what those occur to me

5:17

at. So that's what I

5:19

was just going to stitch that little part of when

5:21

she, you know, called and said that. I think there's

5:23

a lot of parents and there's a lot of women,

5:26

especially that are calling these

5:29

things out. Like even this morning, I haven't made a

5:31

video about this one yet, but I made lunch. She,

5:34

she just asked like, what did I put in it today?

5:37

And I said, I put in rice. Usually it's

5:39

like a grilled cheese for our toddler or it's

5:41

like more of a hand food. And she's like,

5:43

oh, did you put a fork in there with

5:45

it? I was like, shit, like I

5:47

didn't put a fork in there. Yeah.

5:52

Just another moment where you realize she has it.

5:55

So with the, with the, with my mom

5:57

talking, you know, calling me, hey, it's raining,

6:00

those up. Yes, she's consumed

6:02

thinking the

6:07

way that I also see it is that she's nagging. So

6:09

part of this is also if

6:13

she didn't say anything and I don't

6:16

know I'm trying to so if she

6:18

has a constant pattern of nagging to

6:21

relieve her anxiety, is

6:23

that mind to carry or what

6:25

can I do to relieve her mental

6:27

load? Do you know what I'm saying? Just

6:30

because she's old-school Korean and she will I

6:32

mean from the time she gets to

6:34

my house once a week or whatever she's

6:37

you know hey you do this like lots

6:39

of nagging nagging. I

6:41

mean hearing you say the word nag is

6:44

it's hard for me because I I rarely

6:46

use that word one because I think it's

6:48

it's probably a bit triggering to my audience

6:50

in in a not useful way. Yes, yes

6:52

of course. But here's my

6:55

first question. You're

6:57

already calling me out of my language.

6:59

This is amazing. Yes. Okay, right. Okay,

7:01

so yeah, nagging. Or about me just

7:03

recognizing like the the

7:06

way that I feel about that word

7:08

and how as I'm up I've

7:10

made a handful of videos where I'm about to

7:12

use the word nag and I'm like mm-hmm is

7:14

that the word that I want to use to

7:16

describe that? Exactly. Dude, you hit on something so

7:19

important you're absolutely right because when you think about

7:21

nagging you instantly think about

7:23

female wife or mom

7:26

right so it is biased.

7:28

No one you know when we use the

7:30

word nag we're not thinking about you know

7:32

our male friends or dad

7:34

we're usually thinking about our

7:37

wife or mother. They're generalization and

7:40

so that word is stained. That word

7:42

is tainted so I think

7:44

that's what we're talking about right? Yeah, yeah,

7:47

yeah and I think so you know

7:49

my friend Laura Danger I'm a big fan

7:51

of her. She she talks about the nag

7:53

paradox where I'm

7:55

not gonna nail this one. She does a

7:57

much better job articulating it but She

8:00

talks about how guys will say,

8:02

hey, I'm going to do this thing for you. I'm going

8:04

to do this thing for our home. And

8:07

then there's this moment where

8:10

there's no specific expectation.

8:12

Like, are you going to do it tonight? Are you going

8:14

to do it by 5 o'clock today? Are you going to

8:16

do it by sometime this weekend? And

8:19

so then there's this moment where it

8:21

was either delegated to him or it was

8:23

asked of him. And because

8:25

there was no expectation, the

8:27

wife is sitting there Saturday morning

8:30

saying, all right, is he going to do

8:32

it? Like,

8:34

this is kind of important to me. Maybe

8:36

it's physically more straining for me to do

8:38

it than him. But

8:40

she doesn't want to be a nag.

8:43

She doesn't want to follow up with him and hold

8:45

him. And she wants to just relieve herself of it

8:47

and know that it's being handled. And there's

8:50

a good handful of times where he's lost

8:52

her trust in that. It's like Sunday. And

8:54

then he's like, ah, sorry, honey, I totally

8:56

forgot. And

8:59

so it's like he's trained her to think

9:01

that there needs to be a follow up

9:04

with that expectation, with that

9:07

delegated task. And the

9:09

question is like, well, what do I do? Do

9:12

I remind him and have

9:14

him feel annoyed about my

9:16

request? And then he pushes

9:18

it away, or do I hold

9:20

back and just hope that he does it, which

9:22

historically he hasn't been great at. So

9:25

it's like this really crappy, between

9:27

a hard rock and a hard place.

9:30

I was gonna ask for you with your mom, when

9:34

was the last time maybe that rain got in your

9:36

car because you didn't roll the windows up? Oh,

9:38

it's happened many times. So I think that

9:41

especially for guys that

9:45

are not

9:48

following through, I think

9:50

they don't have the right to be able

9:53

to say that it's nagging. I think if

9:55

you are, if it hasn't happened many times,

9:58

if it's been a decade. Sure.

10:00

Oh, I mean, yeah, yeah. If

10:02

she has no, what's

10:04

the word? Like she doesn't have proof

10:07

or that that is true, then

10:10

yes, it can be quote unquote nagging. But

10:12

if what she's saying is true, and if you

10:15

do have a habit of leaving your windows open

10:17

and then the car smells like mold, then maybe

10:19

she does. Maybe it's not nagging. Maybe she does

10:21

have a point, you know. Yeah.

10:25

Yeah. So I think if there

10:27

are moments where it's like a

10:29

self-fulfilling prophecy where, you know, she's,

10:31

you know, our parents, our moms are calling

10:34

us out on things because we do in

10:36

fact forget or we've gotten so used to

10:38

leaning on them and would become like, like

10:42

learned helplessness around whatever that

10:44

task is, then

10:47

we have to, we have to give some kind of evidence

10:50

that we don't need it. And

10:52

I know some, there was a, there've been a handful

10:54

of times and typically when I'm talking with my guys

10:57

that, you know, book a call with me

10:59

and want to work with me, I'm saying,

11:01

let me guess is, do they often, are

11:04

you about to do something? And then

11:06

they're saying, hey, can you go do that thing? You're like, I

11:09

was just going to go do it. Now I don't want

11:11

to do it because they asked me to do it. Right.

11:13

Right. And so I think

11:15

that's where we need to improve a lot of

11:18

our communication setting. You know, and she talked about

11:20

in fair play, the minimum standard of care for

11:23

things so that we can have

11:25

an expectation for where we stand on

11:27

these things. Yeah. So I want

11:29

to clarify something because someone on, and

11:33

you actually took it and you stitched it. Someone

11:35

said you are saying

11:39

all this about mental load and the domestic

11:42

labor distribution and all that. Because

11:45

your wife – because you're afraid of your wife, you

11:47

know, and all this and you're like, that's not true.

11:49

And I just want to

11:51

clarify because one could instantly assume, oh,

11:54

something happened or there was an ultimatum

11:56

or he got schooled or his wife's

11:58

going to leave him. And so

12:00

he went to a mental school p

12:03

with Fairplay. Graduate. Is now

12:05

he's you know talking about this and

12:07

the truth is. It was a

12:09

book referral It was are you were

12:11

talking about being a dad and then

12:13

you came across this book and you

12:15

were led by noticing. Your

12:18

your own kind of shortcomings in that

12:20

in that area which which is very

12:22

empowering. It wasn't because you are forced.

12:25

To the outset, that's that's accurate. The

12:27

other thing I would say is we

12:30

did get separated back and twenty teen.

12:32

I didn't have the language back then

12:34

to describe the fact that ah, I'd

12:37

come as. Having heard carry

12:39

them into load but back and twenty

12:41

mean we got a new house we

12:43

started renovating is and isn't I was

12:45

really not upholding my end of bargain

12:48

around like the expectations that a think

12:50

both of us had for the the

12:52

input that I would put into. I'm

12:55

making those changes in the house so.

12:57

I think. I. Learned that

12:59

was a year three of our marriage

13:02

that that happens com and I think.

13:05

Ever since and have tried. Have

13:07

recognized like. As.

13:09

Exciting as them The wedding was and

13:12

like have you ever can be together

13:14

forever? It's like than. That's.

13:16

Not accurate even like when I was

13:18

it as a teacher for eight years

13:20

they ask you to go get like

13:22

recertified stuff every year. Yes, go get

13:24

your like credit moon, continue education that

13:26

should probably or marriage certificates should probably

13:29

also be like I'd like I'd Yeah

13:31

ah what a great idea. Renewed his

13:33

buyers. Death. You. Gotta

13:35

go take the left. has to give

13:37

us a, you know, talking about that.

13:40

The Mayor com Okay, so there was

13:42

a catalyst to this, but ultimately. This

13:45

the something your fears that topic you're forced

13:47

to explore and talk about something that

13:49

you're you're you're that passenger of it.

13:51

Can also very neat into worth the

13:54

let me ask you this or what. How

13:56

are you guys are you milenio urgency?

13:58

You carry on. I'm

14:00

thirty three and Millennial. Okay, miles

14:02

on city. And I think

14:04

you know because I have one foot

14:07

in the eighties and I grew up

14:09

very kind of old school locker room.

14:11

you know my cheese mo and zeal,

14:14

the Patriarchy and it all that I

14:16

especially from cream parents who are more

14:18

old school rights and then I have

14:20

one foot in you know with millennials

14:23

and and and and the pendulum swinging

14:25

and all the new you know which

14:27

is are exciting. And

14:29

so this topic is. Logical.

14:32

The I agree with. And then

14:34

there's parts of me that do get activated and

14:36

one of the things that and I'm sure many

14:38

men are necessary to me as in so many

14:41

men. but. A

14:43

part of me says like. Yes, You're right,

14:46

I see that. There.

14:49

Are things that I should think

14:51

about? Mental Load. There

14:54

are things that aren't said that as take

14:56

responsibility for you know. Also, like when it

14:59

comes the house tours of course. And.

15:01

Then there's a part of me. a psych okinawa do I get? Like.

15:04

If I do all these things, if I carry your mental

15:06

load, what are you doing for me? It's

15:09

like what? what's the mental those version of

15:11

of of of for for man that bed

15:13

that women should be working on that you'd

15:16

like a literary tit for tat? I know

15:18

it's wrong with that system. Despicably on his

15:20

that's that's my knee jerk. Or

15:23

as infer especially the guys the really

15:25

need to hear this to lead into

15:27

the conversation they have soared me Answer

15:29

for that I think you're intimacy not

15:31

think you're going to be worth zero

15:33

for your i study words that with

15:36

the fees examine that at least the

15:38

the easy you on a thing as

15:40

that I think alice's so one a

15:42

thing because were consistently talking about the

15:44

domestic labor distribution or home were also

15:46

talking more kinda blew both are level

15:48

of intimacy like a know it's spent

15:50

a month and since we've been intimate

15:52

together. like is there's something going on for

15:54

you like is you're not being filled know

15:56

it's not and here's x y and z

15:58

reasons like i haven't I've gotten a single hour

16:01

to do gardening this month. I haven't gone to

16:03

yoga yet. I'm

16:05

realizing this isn't for me, but

16:07

some examples, with our

16:09

two year old, I feel like I can't trust

16:11

you to be alone with them for a couple

16:13

hours. Even when I do

16:15

and I go to yoga, I finish

16:18

the session, I have five texts from you. That

16:21

makes me not want to leave the

16:23

house. So I think because we're consistently

16:26

having those conversations, yes, intimacy is a

16:28

huge thing that improves. I

16:31

would say the other two, I think, that

16:33

occur are around the

16:35

nag paradox there. If

16:38

you really don't like when she

16:40

assigns you things or is asking

16:42

you to do things, or you're

16:44

assigned to yourself, and then she's still reminding you to

16:46

do things that you said you would do, when

16:50

you improve your communication, you improve

16:53

her building

16:55

trust in day

16:57

to day integrity. You're gonna see.

17:00

I don't know if it's my internet or yours. I'm

17:03

not sure either. Can you hear me now?

17:05

Yeah, okay, you improve what? You broke up

17:07

with the last piece. You

17:10

improve, I think, the level of

17:13

vulnerability you're able to achieve in

17:15

your conversations. All right. And I

17:17

think as the vulnerability gets better

17:19

in those conversations, it's easier

17:22

to talk about the tough things

17:24

and make tougher asks. I

17:27

think for me asking Alyssa

17:29

to let me fail at something, the

17:33

first month that we lived in this house about a

17:35

year ago, I kept forgetting to

17:37

put out the trash on the new trash days since

17:40

we moved. And it's also an

17:42

extra minute and a half longer than normal.

17:46

Before, our toddler was, I

17:49

could put her in one spot for

17:52

45 seconds and deal with that. Of course, now it's

17:54

like a three minute task. I can't just do

17:56

that without being really.

18:00

really fearful or maybe being a little

18:02

irresponsible. So I had

18:04

to develop some new habits around something simple

18:06

like putting the trash out because it was

18:08

a longer task. And

18:12

by asking for permission, hey, if

18:14

I missed this week, can we let it

18:16

pile up just a little bit for

18:19

me to feel the pain of that so that I

18:22

figure it out? And I think when we're able to

18:24

give ourselves a little bit more permission to fail, I

18:27

think there's a lot more growth that happens.

18:30

Yeah, yeah, it's a great point. I'm

18:33

also gonna answer my own question and the

18:37

question being, oh, if I carry and

18:39

be aware of make

18:41

effort with mental load, domestic

18:43

labor, all this, what do I get? And

18:46

anyone asking yourself that question, I'll tell you.

18:51

Try it for a week and see what you get

18:53

because it's very

18:55

effective. If you

18:57

take initiative, because here's what your partner

18:59

is seeing, efforts. And

19:03

that's very sexy. It's not so

19:05

much like, if I do this, then what do I get

19:07

for that? Because then that kind of takes away, then it

19:09

kind of makes you look like a child. But

19:12

just the effort of taking

19:15

initiative or taking the load, mental

19:17

load away from your partner by

19:19

you, I mean, it's basically active

19:21

service, being thoughtful and doing these

19:23

things ahead of time. It

19:26

puts them in a state of gratitude. It

19:28

puts them in a state of closeness. I

19:32

mean, you can say, they

19:34

actually will get more aroused just by, it's

19:36

very sexy, you know? And so I get

19:39

that, I get that. That's

19:42

what you get. And so I have learned that the hard way.

19:45

But the stuff

19:47

that you're talking about, I think is really powerful.

19:50

And if you're not doing it, instead

19:52

of pushing back and arguing,

19:55

just do it and what you'll notice

19:58

are the results. Because And it's

20:00

when people see results where they get very

20:02

motivated, right? Or else we're just going to

20:04

argue back and forth for hours. Actually attempt

20:06

it and tell me your findings. Tell me

20:09

what you're getting because of this effort. I

20:13

think that – I mean I'll probably

20:16

always come back to this instead of found

20:18

that as you guys are talking about these

20:20

things more and more – I

20:22

mean so I – as you

20:25

had said the what mental load universe or

20:27

something so I started a program back in

20:29

October when it seemed like people

20:31

were just begging me to do

20:33

this. I started mental

20:36

load mastery which is a 13-week

20:38

program where guys are practicing every

20:40

week doing these things. So

20:43

every week what I'm hearing from

20:45

these guys is like I

20:47

help them stay accountable to homework

20:49

assignment every week of reading the

20:51

fair playbook, having discussion

20:53

and having a weekly meeting with their

20:56

partner. This is something that

20:58

anyone can do. They don't need me to do this.

21:01

It's a matter of if they'll do it. I think so many

21:03

people generally know the

21:06

value of like having a weekly talk

21:08

with their partner where they talk about

21:10

the schedule. They talk about, hey,

21:12

our cousins, our aunts coming to stay

21:14

over for a couple days. How

21:17

clean is clean for her being here?

21:20

Should we be up a little bit earlier?

21:22

Does she like things a certain way? The

21:25

bathroom needs to be cleaned. What

21:29

should we get takeout every night or should

21:31

we plan to cook every night? What

21:35

different standards that we normally have are going to

21:37

change because we have a guest in the house.

21:40

Those kind of conversations need

21:44

a little bit more attention than I

21:46

think we considered giving them.

21:49

I think a huge part is because in corporate

21:52

America, there's dollars attached to

21:54

a lot of these meetings.

21:57

We'll have a performance meeting because there's...

22:00

money on the line if the performance is bad. But

22:02

what's on the line here is fighting,

22:04

resentment, being

22:09

irritated, nagging, all

22:11

those different things that keep coming up when

22:14

you guys aren't touching base on a frequent

22:16

basis, making sure your cups are

22:18

both filled and that you guys are hitting

22:20

standards that you both agree on. So

22:23

I think another thing

22:25

is that because the level vulnerability

22:27

increases in those consistent meetings, I've

22:29

found multiple of the guys that

22:32

I work with are talking

22:34

about feelings in a way that they really

22:36

never have. Because oftentimes

22:40

they'll ask me, okay, what

22:42

if we have something we're

22:44

trying to agree on, like the cleanliness of

22:47

the kitchen, and she wants X, Y, and

22:49

Z more things. And I'm like, we

22:51

don't need that. It doesn't need to

22:53

be that clean all the time. And

22:56

then you get into, well, why is that important

22:58

to you? And I think

23:01

Eve talks about in her book that it

23:04

was really important for the trash to get taken out at

23:06

a certain level, because it

23:08

would bring back memories of her

23:10

childhood when she would

23:12

find cockroaches crawling all

23:15

over the kitchen because she

23:17

had a single mom. So

23:19

when she brought up that concern, why it was

23:21

important to her, all of a sudden her husband,

23:24

Seth, was like, oh, shit, now I get it.

23:26

Now I get why you're nagging

23:29

me to the nth degree, trying

23:31

to just take the trash out. And I think she

23:33

described it as sometimes she would just follow her husband

23:35

around and be like, what are you doing? And she's

23:37

like, no, nothing. And she was just kind

23:39

of stalking him to see that he was doing the thing

23:41

that he said he would. So

23:43

I think when we're able to have more of

23:45

those conversations of why things are important to us,

23:48

we're going to tap into a different depth

23:51

of emotion that Machismo man

23:53

is not letting come out

23:56

of his mouth. Yeah.

23:59

What would you say? because this is also kind

24:01

of an obvious response. I'm sure

24:03

you get it all the time. Men who are

24:06

quote unquote the breadwinners, so they go

24:08

to work, they're working, you know, long

24:10

hours and then they come

24:12

home exhausted, they're paying all the bills

24:14

and now you're telling him to also,

24:16

you know, do the laundry, do half

24:18

the housework, carry the mental load and

24:22

then their response is like, well, I

24:24

fund everything. I make the money, you

24:27

know, she has a part-time job

24:29

or has no job. Why does that, you

24:31

know, so what do you say to men

24:33

who are approaching that angle? I

24:37

would say I would ask them, what kind of

24:39

life do you want? Like, do you want

24:41

to have kids? I

24:43

mean, do you want to have clean

24:45

laundry? And like, when you signed up

24:47

for your job, there's

24:50

usually a salary amount and

24:52

there's like job qualifications and

24:54

there's also job expectations

24:57

and responsibilities. Have

24:59

you guys defined that in your own home? Because

25:01

if you haven't, what you're likely doing is

25:03

like, do you

25:06

get pissed when they add something to

25:08

your load? Like, wait a second, this

25:10

quarterly report, that's not my responsibility. That's

25:12

John's responsibility over there. And

25:16

if you're getting upset about that,

25:18

and she's getting upset about the fact that she's

25:20

doing her laundry when she never signed up to,

25:22

then I think that

25:25

it's the same issue. So I think a

25:29

lot of the things she talked about in Fairplay was like, that

25:32

a lot of women are being the default

25:34

parent and they're the default for everything. I

25:36

made this metaphor the other day of like,

25:40

I'm sure everyone has that drawer in their kitchen

25:42

that started out as Post-it notes and pens and

25:45

pencils, maybe with like, maybe

25:47

paperclips. And by now it has

25:50

a flashlight, it has batteries. Oh, yeah, we have

25:52

many of those. Right, right. It has

25:54

everything in it. And like, that's the default.

25:57

The junk drawer. Yeah. The

25:59

junk drawer, yeah. So like, I

26:02

call it the everything drawer because I think

26:04

in the metaphor when we're talking about

26:06

like comparing it to like the responsibilities

26:08

of a mom in the home is like

26:10

all these responsibilities are now falling on

26:12

her because she's the default. Meanwhile, you

26:14

know, the nine to five job person

26:16

is the dishwasher. They have a super clear

26:19

set of expectations. Dishes go in, dishes

26:21

go out, you put the soap in,

26:23

it runs for a certain amount of time.

26:26

You're not gonna put Post-it notes in the dishwasher. That's

26:28

outside of its job category. You're not gonna,

26:30

you know, you're not gonna put food in

26:33

the dishwasher. That's outside of its job category.

26:35

But the everything drawer, you can put everything

26:37

in. And so if we

26:40

keep treating the moms like

26:43

the everything drawer, it's

26:45

inappropriate for us to get pissed. Right.

26:50

Right. And speaking of the

26:53

everything drawer, when you're talking about it, we

26:56

have one. And how amazing

26:58

would it be without my

27:00

partner telling me if I took the initiative

27:02

and actually, you

27:04

know, organized it and not made it the junk

27:06

drawer, but took all the shit out of it

27:08

and kind of organized it. Because that's something that

27:12

for years, I mean, I wouldn't

27:14

do. It's something that requires

27:16

some thought, some effort, and

27:19

realizing, oh, we have a junk drawer

27:21

that's piling up. Why

27:23

should I wait for her to

27:25

do something? Why can't I just organize it

27:27

myself? Now, if she notices

27:30

me doing that, knowing her, she

27:32

would be, I mean, very grateful.

27:35

You know, the word that she uses is attunement.

27:38

And so I think that's

27:40

the byproduct of the stuff that you're

27:42

talking about is it makes you more

27:44

attuned. It makes your partner feel like

27:46

you are more attuned to your partner

27:48

because you are thinking about these things,

27:50

you know? And that's some of

27:52

the things that I, in the

27:55

beginning had pushed back. And now I'm

27:57

learning as a 50-year-old band, you

27:59

know? The

28:01

other thing is like, why can't,

28:03

because I think, and the generalization,

28:05

but men, they get obsessive about

28:07

their business, what they're building, the

28:09

gym time, golfing, whatever. Why

28:15

can't they approach their house like their business? Meaning,

28:18

things need to get done for the house

28:20

to run. I also have a child. Just

28:22

to get the child out of the house

28:25

is a huge production. So why

28:27

don't you take some, not

28:29

only responsibility, but why not make it a

28:31

priority that if you want the house

28:34

to run smoothly, like you want your business

28:36

to run smoothly, it's going

28:38

to take more than one person. I can

28:43

take a stab at why I

28:45

think that happens, which

28:47

I think a huge part of it is

28:49

because we live in a capitalist society. It's

28:53

not necessarily a good or bad thing. It's just

28:55

like kind of an objective thing is because

28:57

we're in a capitalist society, if something

28:59

doesn't have a dollar amount to it,

29:01

we just don't respect it the same

29:04

way. You're absolutely right. And

29:07

when we start recognizing, wow, the

29:11

value and the experience of my home has a

29:14

lot more value

29:16

to it. I mean, what person

29:18

on their deathbed in their 80s

29:20

is saying, man, really wish

29:22

I'd spent another five hours trying to close that deal

29:24

for $10,000 versus really glad that they spent those

29:30

five hours driving to

29:32

the travel soccer game with their

29:34

little kid and

29:36

got to watch them score their first

29:38

big goal. At

29:41

the end of the day, we're so blinded

29:43

by, I think, capitalism and seeing the dollars

29:46

attached to these things. Even when

29:48

we think about, you know, Eve talks

29:50

all about the economics of it.

29:53

I don't know the exact step, but it was something like

29:56

the invisible labor that women complete

29:58

in the homes. adds

30:01

up to around like 1.5 trillion

30:03

dollars a year, I want

30:05

to say it is. The

30:07

reason we don't have any stats for

30:09

that is because it's not outsourced. So

30:12

if mom said, okay, instead of cooking

30:14

tonight, I'm going to outsource, we're going to hire

30:16

a personal chef to do this cooking, and I'm

30:18

not going to grocery shop anymore. I'm going to

30:20

hire a personal shopper, and I'm also

30:22

not going to pick up the kids anymore from

30:24

school. We're going to hire someone. Once

30:27

there's an exchange of services, then our

30:29

economy starts agreeing that it

30:31

has value because there's a dollar being

30:33

traded for it. Because most

30:36

of those things don't get outsourced,

30:38

and it's way cheaper to have mom do it.

30:42

That's a huge reason why there's

30:44

no value to it because people

30:46

aren't seriously thinking about outsourcing. Yeah,

30:49

that's very smart,

30:51

and it's also very true, absolutely. We,

30:54

in our capitalistic society, place

30:56

less weight on things when

30:59

it can't be monetized, or yeah,

31:01

there's no dollar sign to it. So yes,

31:04

all the home stuff, mental – I mean, these

31:06

are also kind of abstract things too. They're not

31:09

things that – some

31:11

of them are just things that you have to come up with yourself, and

31:13

you're so good at the nuance, the little

31:16

things, picking up on that. I

31:19

think it's a practice too. So it's

31:22

not like just doing it overnight. I

31:25

think you have to train – it's almost like

31:27

retraining ourselves, right, to look for things that we

31:29

didn't see before. Yeah,

31:32

and it wasn't until that book I started being able to

31:34

– I think I made one or two videos, maybe

31:36

like a month after finishing the book, where

31:39

I said, I think I just added mental

31:42

to my wife. I remember the first video

31:44

that really got

31:47

a lot of attention, I realized how missing

31:49

it was to talk about mental load and

31:51

all these small aspects was. I

31:54

shared this video of we had –

31:56

our kid was about one year, one

31:58

and a half-ish. and she

32:01

was sick and a lot of times we

32:04

would put medicine in her milk. We'd

32:07

already given her medicine, so we was either

32:09

going to give her water or milk. So

32:12

I said, hey honey, should we give her water and milk?

32:16

I was fresh off thinking about Men's Load in the

32:18

book and I was like, hmm, what

32:20

if I just said, hey

32:23

honey, I'm bringing in milk as

32:25

we're getting ready for a nap time.

32:27

Bringing milk because of X, Y, and Z

32:29

reason because I think she'll fall asleep better,

32:32

even though I know it's going to increase

32:34

her sinuses and that's not great, but I

32:36

think she'll fall asleep better and heal quicker.

32:40

If I had brought that to her like a

32:42

simple tiny little item like that, water or milk,

32:46

the buck can stop with me, the buck

32:48

doesn't have to stop with her on

32:51

making that decision. By showing my work,

32:54

she can also hear the logic in it rather

32:57

than I think there's a lot of

32:59

guys that I work with saying, all

33:01

the time their partner is saying like, no, no, I

33:03

shouldn't do it that way, do it the right way

33:05

or do it, which is my way. So

33:08

I think when I was a math teacher, I

33:12

would always give the students much more

33:14

credit if they showed work on the

33:16

side. Similarly here, if you show some

33:18

of your reasoning in your thought there,

33:21

I think you're much more likely to get

33:23

a little bit more leeway when it comes

33:26

to making those kind of choices. You

33:29

know, I was thinking, so

33:31

years ago I had this before and

33:34

after photograph as a post and it

33:36

was represented the old me and the

33:38

new me and the old me was

33:41

a dish towel that was scrunched into

33:43

the, you know, like on the oven

33:45

holder, it was just scrunched in there.

33:48

And then the other one next to it was

33:50

folded. And

33:53

this is something that I could see you pointing out

33:55

because it's so minor. It's like, who the fuck cares?

33:57

But listen, I know that my –

34:00

partner will see that and she will fix it.

34:03

And yes, it only takes three seconds. But

34:05

you're adding three seconds and

34:08

possibly some resentments because you

34:10

couldn't straighten the dish towel instead, you just scrunched

34:12

it in there. And also over time, like a

34:14

pebble in the shoe, if you're

34:16

doing it every day, those three seconds could add

34:19

up to hours of

34:21

walking around the house straightening your towel. Yeah,

34:25

absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, you

34:27

know, what we need is, because

34:29

Men Sharp and other men, men listen

34:31

to other men, we need

34:34

and I know you're kind of pioneering this,

34:36

we need men to get on board and

34:38

to start having these conversations in locker rooms,

34:41

in spaces where it's

34:43

just dudes where they're posturing

34:45

and talking about, you know,

34:49

money or objects. And I

34:51

would I would assume that

34:53

that someone brings this up

34:56

is probably going to get laughed at right

34:58

now. But if enough men actually engage

35:02

in this conversation, then

35:04

it makes other men okay, gives other men

35:06

permission to care about it and to put

35:08

some action behind it, you know. Yeah,

35:11

I actually think someone that's doing a

35:13

pretty decent job at it in,

35:16

you know, I haven't seen a ton

35:18

of different evidence who don't really follow them. But

35:20

if you're familiar with the, the

35:22

New Heights podcast, Travis and Jason

35:24

Kelsey, obviously, Travis

35:27

seems to be on top of the world

35:29

right now with attention. There are two clips

35:31

that have really stood out to me over

35:33

the past couple months. One

35:35

was he was talking with his

35:37

brother, Jason. And Jason, I think started

35:39

tearing up over recognizing like it was

35:41

the end of his career, he's gonna retire.

35:44

And instead of having him

35:46

like, say like, hey, man, don't cry

35:48

or like, don't, you know,

35:50

don't show feeling across across the camera

35:52

from me. He's like, Hell yeah, man.

35:55

And he just kind of he was

35:57

with it. He was like, yeah, with him and like

35:59

letting him You know let those emotions

36:01

out in the second one, which is more on this

36:03

topic though. I've been talking about is Jason

36:09

He he let's see. Travis says let's talk

36:11

about the the Kelsey premiere Which I guess

36:13

is the documentary that came out about Jason

36:15

and he's like hey, man You

36:17

got really dressed up for that It tell us

36:19

a little bit about this outfit and he you

36:22

know It's something you would imagine someone dress up

36:24

for he comes in flip-flops and shorts And

36:27

he's like yeah, Kylie my wife she

36:29

forgot my jeans. He's like, wait, wait

36:31

what and then he's

36:33

like, yeah Like Kylie said she's gonna

36:36

bring my jeans and then she didn't bring him

36:38

She's like and then Travis says why didn't why

36:40

didn't Jason bring jeans for Jason? Yeah,

36:42

and then he tries going into his explanation

36:44

He's like well like I was a football

36:47

and then like, you know, I was a

36:49

football I'm not wearing jeans at football and

36:51

then like as Travis is just laughing at

36:53

him on the other side of the camera

36:55

He's like shit. Yeah, you're

36:57

right. I can't really blame Kylie for this

36:59

one Just like yeah recognizing adulting and then

37:02

Travis doubles in he's like man I can't

37:04

imagine that conversation between you and Kylie just

37:06

like I can't believe you

37:08

forgot my jeans I'm gonna look like an idiot.

37:10

It's just like a really great example of what

37:13

What I think good comedic locker room

37:16

talk looks like that that

37:18

moves moves us forward, right? That

37:21

like does a good job

37:23

like Calling out

37:25

another guy that is, you

37:27

know underperforming domestically,

37:29

let's say and And

37:32

like does it in a playful and

37:34

fun and like instead of a shame

37:36

non threatening? Yeah. Yeah I think I

37:38

think you're right. I think that's the

37:41

prescription is humor playfulness Buddy,

37:43

I love you, but I'm also gonna call you out kind

37:46

of thing, you know Men

37:48

respond well to that Um,

37:56

yeah, I usually start with this but I'm

37:58

gonna end with this just

38:00

to get to know you more 360 instead of

38:02

just a person that talks about this topic. What

38:06

is your current greatest struggle in

38:08

your life? Also someone

38:10

is a content creator and making constant

38:12

videos and it's got to be so

38:14

much energy behind this mission, this movement.

38:16

What is your current greatest struggle? I'll

38:19

say, so it

38:22

was this weekend, so I'm going to put my hat on here. For

38:25

people that are listening, I just

38:27

put on my recovering man child hat. This

38:32

weekend, I was with my cousin and

38:34

we were out at a restaurant

38:37

and I had this moment. By

38:39

now, I've grown across all four

38:42

platforms, I have about 950,000 followers.

38:45

Nice. I've known you through

38:47

Kristen's house. Recently, in the past six months,

38:50

I've grown significantly a couple hundred

38:52

thousand and I've been

38:54

recognized in public six times in the state

38:57

of Massachusetts where I live. I

39:02

asked for this hat for my

39:05

birthday in August and

39:07

I got two other

39:09

ones in different styles. I

39:12

was wearing this hat out the other night with him and

39:14

I'm really

39:16

good at being pretty vulnerable

39:19

with him. I said, wow, my ego

39:21

is just screaming for someone to notice

39:23

me right now. I've

39:26

noticed how much, as I've

39:28

built some of a social

39:30

following, is my ego

39:33

is out of fucking control sometimes

39:35

and I'm desperately seeking attention and

39:37

it's really scary. He was like,

39:39

wait, are you playing with me?

39:41

Are you serious? I

39:45

noticed a moment where I was

39:48

facing one direction towards the wall and I

39:50

turned my hat around so that more people

39:52

could see it. I'm six-five, so I'm taller

39:54

than everyone in the room. To

39:58

answer your question more specifically, is that... I think I've

40:01

been struggling with trying to be

40:03

humble and trying to see the

40:05

value that I'm

40:09

bringing more so than the

40:12

ego that can come up with

40:14

the fame of having

40:16

a following. Also, to be

40:18

fair, it didn't happen pretty quick. You're

40:21

not like me where you've been... I started

40:23

on Tumblr fucking 20 years ago and just

40:25

slowly... For you, it seems

40:28

like it hit pretty fast. How

40:30

do you handle that as someone who starts

40:33

to get recognized on the streets pretty quickly?

40:36

It's just a crazy world with social media. Yeah,

40:39

it was August. So a year and a half

40:41

ago, I had $80,000 on TikTok. And

40:45

then I started talking about mental load.

40:48

And now you're what? A little close to

40:50

that. So TikTok is 315,000 Instagrams, 370 Facebook.

40:56

Since September, it has gotten to 250,000 and YouTube is

40:58

30,000. Yeah,

41:03

so that's very fast. Even

41:05

for the internet, I know things can be scaled.

41:07

But in one year... For

41:10

a person, a normal person to digest that,

41:12

to process that, to know what to do

41:14

with it is difficult. Technically,

41:17

you are famous. Once

41:20

people start recognizing you on the street... And

41:22

also, what happened to me was I was weird and rude

41:24

and I would just get on my motorcycle and leave. Yeah,

41:28

it's a real thing, man. I'm gonna buy you

41:30

a spinning hat where the sign, you just spin

41:32

it. So it's all... Everyone can

41:34

see it. You know? It's just

41:36

like a fucking hat. For the days that you need your ego fed, which

41:38

is fair. I

41:41

found you through Kristen Bell. Yeah.

41:44

Yeah, so I think celebrities

41:47

like that, I'm posting about you, which is great.

41:49

Well, listen, man, thanks for the chat. And

41:52

I'm gonna keep Zach right here, close

41:54

to me. Or maybe my shirt pocket

41:56

as I engage with... You

41:59

know, dudes... on motorcycles and just guys

42:01

who would push back

42:04

or roll their eyes at anything

42:07

like this. And

42:09

I'm going to slowly kind of, you

42:11

know, the Trojan horse, kind of challenge

42:13

them, sneak things in. So I'm going

42:15

to kind of keep you here to

42:17

feed that spirit of changing the conversation

42:19

in locker rooms. Hell

42:22

yeah. Thank you John for

42:24

making the, being the

42:26

change you want to see in the world. Oh

42:29

man, I'm trying. I'm not there man. I'll be honest with

42:31

you. This is all

42:33

hard stuff man and as a 50

42:35

year old, I get activated constantly and

42:37

I also there's pushback and you know,

42:40

but everything you're saying I can't argue

42:43

with. It's correct. It's true. You

42:46

know, domestic labor has been lopsided for,

42:48

I mean forever. It's

42:51

just now that we're even looking at it. So

42:53

it's important work. Zach, thank

42:55

you and where can we find you? I

42:59

would say Instagram is currently the place that

43:01

I post the most and the most active. If

43:04

you're interested in, you know, the mental

43:06

load master program currently I'm working with

43:08

men. I've just recently opened

43:10

a couple slots for working with couples

43:12

because they've been requesting it. Yeah. Maybe

43:14

I can, we can put a link or something

43:17

in the show notes. Yeah, in the show notes. Yes, for sure. Want

43:19

to book a free call to see if it's the right fit. Awesome.

43:22

Thank you so much. All

43:25

right. Be well. Thanks John. Bye.